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  • Personally, I find the Layton art style quite charming. But then, to each his own. Some people like it, some don't. Same goes for everything.

  • I think the reviewer got the stars messed up. Its supposed to be 5/3. Puzzle Agent deserves that

  • @Raum said: Oh please. Like this has anything to do with what I said.

    Invention, in this case, is making logical conundrums that are topologically different. Anyone who's dabbled just a tad with mathematics, game mechanics or puzzles know that essentially, most of what is produced is very similar in how it functions, if you look at it in a more abstract fashion. Puzzles generally aren't inventive, at all; and they pretty much can't be, unless they're made a lot more advanced.

    This has nothing to do with how gaming as a whole is bad, the strawman-argument of me "settling for less" or whatever you're blabbering on about. This has to do with how designing good games aren't about just sitting down "being innovative", but about making sure the game ends up as a work that feels whole and autonomous. The design process isn't just arbitrary throwing together "innovative" stuff. You've got to take into account if the puzzle elements fits into the story, the feel of the game, if you can incorporate (or even use existing) premises of the setting or artwork, if the puzzle fits the humour or the atmosphere, or even the pacing.

    You act as if similar puzzles is some kind of key indicator of gaming quality in general. Of course it isn't. Yes, gaming is in shambles right now, but that has nothing — at all — to do with how classic puzzles are used in puzzle games like Professor Layton or Puzzle Agent. I can tell you that right now, even without knowing anything about the puzzles in PA. So, let's just wait and see how the puzzles incorporate into the game, and don't get our panties in a twist just because some simpleton over at Joystiq can't think outside of comparisons.

    Goddammit. I had a really long reply and Telltale's forums just lost it all. This is the second time in a few days.

    Whatever. The general gist was:

    1) You're taking my comments too personally. We're having an intelligent conversation, so I don't know that there's a need to. I never meant for my comments to reflect all of gaming (though innovation is not limited to just puzzles). They were only meant to reflect what *I* want out of *puzzle* games. There is absolutely a market for familiarity, but it's not personally what I want, because I play puzzle games to think. With Telltale Games, the story and atmosphere are always key ingredients, but part of it has to be the satisfaction of solving the puzzles, and if I know the answer after a cursory glance because I've seen the puzzle before, I didn't solve anything. I pretty much answered a trivia question.

    2) You're 90% right about abstraction. Most puzzles *are* just different takes on the same puzzle. What we consider to be innovation is often just smoke and mirrors, and if my mind is fooled into thinking what I'm seeing is new, then what's the difference? However, even a slight change to the given rules of a puzzle is enough to provide a whole new experience. Do you know how many variations on Sudoku there are? Dozens. And most of them are more interesting than the original.

    I do think we do have to leave a little room for the truly new, hence the 90%. If I've already seen some form of every puzzle that will ever be, I'll be depressed.

    But let's take the sock puzzle for a moment. My main beef is that there IS no abstraction. They could have gotten rid of the socks and kept the main probability mechanism, and then at the very least I would have had to read the puzzle and say "Hey, this is kinda like that sock problem!" If there is no abstraction, that means that the puzzle had to have come first, and that means it had to be shoehorned (sockhorned?) into the story. I can't tell without playing the game whether that was done well or not.

    Anyway, I'll stop ragging on a game I haven't played. Just realize I don't think the gaming industry will implode because of its misuse of puzzles. I didn't throw Red Dead Redemption into the trash because of its lack of puzzles. I know there are people out there who called Red Dead Redemption derivative of Grand Theft Auto (Grand Theft Horse), but I think most would agree that it's abstraction on the main concept in its story, atmosphere, and gameplay was enough to make it a great game.

  • @Yadda said: Personally, I find the Layton art style quite charming. But then, to each his own. Some people like it, some don't. Same goes for everything.

    You mean there really exist people who don't like peppermint ice cream?

  • Yep. But there are none that don't like Mint Chocolate Chip. (Hehe. Just kidding, but until stuff like Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough came out, it seemed like it was always the first ice-cream to run out first.)

  • @TomPravetz said: http://gamesgoldandglory.blogspot.com/2010/06/nelson-tethers-puzzle-agent-review_2910.html :D


    That was a much better review for three reasons
    1) He didn't go on about Professor Layton
    2) He actually mentioned Grinkle and that the game was made with Grinkle fans in mind
    3) He gave a much better image of what to expect from bove the gameplay and story

  • For those wondering: You can turn voices off. If you want. And It'll just be speech bubbles.

  • @Toast_Burner said: That was a much better review for three reasons
    1) He didn't go on about Professor Layton
    2) He actually mentioned Grinkle and that the game was made with Grinkle fans in mind
    3) He gave a much better image of what to expect from bove the gameplay and story

    Fixed. At least I assume that's what you mean, as I saw no mention of it.

  • @Toast_Burner said: That was a much better review for three reasons
    1) He did go on about Professor Layton
    2) He actually mentioned Grickle and that the game was made with Grickle fans in mind
    3) He gave a much better image of what to expect from bove the gameplay and story

    Me? I won? Really?

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