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The Big Ben Discussion... *SPOILERS*

posted by Smithian on - last edited - Viewed by 367 users

Hello all!

I've been looking through the forums and have found a few discussions on Ben, but nothing very in depth. I'm a forum noob myself so apologies if you're a "search button nazi" and will come to tell me off because you have nothing better to do.

Anyway... Onwards!

Firstly, I love this game! It makes decision making so difficult sometimes as you never have a win/win situation. It never patronises you with a "You chose the good action, so everything will be good :)" cliche like so many other RPG's. Which is where Ben comes into the equation...

I'm not a fan of Ben... At all! After I found out he had a deal with the bandits and was the reason Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck were all killed, he was dead to me! I couldn't wait for episode 4 and I was hoping I could either leave him or kill him.

When episode 4 rolled around, and he leaves Clementine in the street to die, that just confirmed how quickly I'd kill him or kick him out the group. I know he doesn't have bad intentions as such, but he is completely brain dead (pun!) and a massive liability for the group, as proved in episode 4 where he evolves from generally useless to a complete fuck up. As the episode went on, I had more and more reasons to kill him, like when he took the axe out the locked door or didn't keep an eye on Clementine in the house... He was pushing all my buttons.

As soon as the moment came around when he was caught by the zombie on the bell tower, I was so happy. I didn't even shoot the zombie in an attempt to help him, I just waited and let him fall to the bottom and die. At that moment, I was glad to be rid of him.

When I saw Clementine's reaction to this, I started to regret it, a little. I'd do more or less anything for Clementine as she's one of the last few things left in the awful Walking Dead world that has remained innocent and hopeful. She always see's the best in people, even if they leave her in the street to die like Ben did.

What made me start to regret my decision to let Ben die was when I watched on YouTube what happens if you shoot the zombie on the bell tower and try to help Ben. He asks you to look after the others and leave him to die. That was the first time I've ever had a glimpse of respect for Ben because he finally put other people before himself. The rest of the time in the group he's been a totally useless, whiny little leech, but then he really "manned up" so to speak.

After seeing him drop then, I felt pretty terrible, to the extent I even questioned myself as a person if I would really let him do that in that situation (not that I'd have the upper body strength to lift him up with one hand anyway!)

I started thinking that if I don't do all I can to save everyone, regardless of whether they've fucked up or were totally useless, what does that make me? How am I any better than the rest of the group who can be really unreliable and flawed at best. I wouldn't give evil people like the Saint Johns a chance, I'd leave them to die without a flicker of regret, but I started to wonder whether Ben deserved to die just because he was useless?

I'm not a fan on going back on my original decisions, I think it cheapens it somewhat, but I am considering saving Ben and taking the whole group with me to save Clem, even after all that Ben has done. I don't really trust any of the characters that much, especially after the twists and turns of previous episodes, but I also don't want to see them come to harm anymore like I previously did. Clementine is the one that will always come first for me however and I'll do anything for her, even if that means sucking up my own distrust or hate of others so that I don't have to put Clementine through anything worse.

What do you all think about the situation? What were your thoughts and feelings towards Ben up to and after the point of his death/rescue? I'd be interested to know so I can decide what to do with him in that situation.

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  • @Smithian said: Hello all!

    I've been looking through the forums and have found a few discussions on Ben, but nothing very in depth. I'm a forum noob myself so apologies if you're a "search button nazi" and will come to tell me off because you have nothing better to do.

    Anyway... Onwards!

    Firstly, I love this game! It makes decision making so difficult sometimes as you never have a win/win situation. It never patronises you with a "You chose the good action, so everything will be good :)" cliche like so many other RPG's. Which is where Ben comes into the equation...

    I'm not a fan of Ben... At all! After I found out he had a deal with the bandits and was the reason Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck were all killed, he was dead to me! I couldn't wait for episode 4 and I was hoping I could either leave him or kill him.

    When episode 4 rolled around, and he leaves Clementine in the street to die, that just confirmed how quickly I'd kill him or kick him out the group. I know he doesn't have bad intentions as such, but he is completely brain dead (pun!) and a massive liability for the group, as proved in episode 4 where he evolves from generally useless to a complete fuck up. As the episode went on, I had more and more reasons to kill him, like when he took the axe out the locked door or didn't keep an eye on Clementine in the house... He was pushing all my buttons.

    As soon as the moment came around when he was caught by the zombie on the bell tower, I was so happy. I didn't even shoot the zombie in an attempt to help him, I just waited and let him fall to the bottom and die. At that moment, I was glad to be rid of him.

    When I saw Clementine's reaction to this, I started to regret it, a little. I'd do more or less anything for Clementine as she's one of the last few things left in the awful Walking Dead world that has remained innocent and hopeful. She always see's the best in people, even if they leave her in the street to die like Ben did.

    What made me start to regret my decision to let Ben die was when I watched on YouTube what happens if you shoot the zombie on the bell tower and try to help Ben. He asks you to look after the others and leave him to die. That was the first time I've ever had a glimpse of respect for Ben because he finally put other people before himself. The rest of the time in the group he's been a totally useless, whiny little leech, but then he really "manned up" so to speak.

    After seeing him drop then, I felt pretty terrible, to the extent I even questioned myself as a person if I would really let him do that in that situation (not that I'd have the upper body strength to lift him up with one hand anyway!)

    I started thinking that if I don't do all I can to save everyone, regardless of whether they've fucked up or were totally useless, what does that make me? How am I any better than the rest of the group who can be really unreliable and flawed at best. I wouldn't give evil people like the Saint Johns a chance, I'd leave them to die without a flicker of regret, but I started to wonder whether Ben deserved to die just because he was useless?

    I'm not a fan on going back on my original decisions, I think it cheapens it somewhat, but I am considering saving Ben and taking the whole group with me to save Clem, even after all that Ben has done. I don't really trust any of the characters that much, especially after the twists and turns of previous episodes, but I also don't want to see them come to harm anymore like I previously did. Clementine is the one that will always come first for me however and I'll do anything for her, even if that means sucking up my own distrust or hate of others so that I don't have to put Clementine through anything worse.

    What do you all think about the situation? What were your thoughts and feelings towards Ben up to and after the point of his death/rescue? I'd be interested to know so I can decide what to do with him in that situation.



    Ben... I'd say people that let him go can go smell a rat's ass.
    I mean you regret it, but I honestly when he said:"LET GO DAMMIT!" My heart changed from hating Ben to regretting it so i pulled him up, he wuz willing his life to save others.
    only men with balls of steel would do that

  • First of all, welcome to the forums! Secondly, whatever you do, DON'T go back and save him on your main save. You can copy the save into another slot, and then save him there, but keep your main save with all of your choices. The game looses a lot of its epicness if you go back and change a choice.

    I was about fed up with Ben too, but not to the extent that you seem to have been. I still considered him a part of the group, albeit a pretty crappy member. Understandable that anyone would be fed up with him though. He has about 5 different deaths he is responsible for by the time you get to the top of the bell tower. And he was also willing to let Clem die, and his confession screwed the tattered remains of the "group dynamic" that remained by that point. Seriously, I even yelled "You decide to grow a pair NOW, of all times?!" at my monitor. Hell, my first instinct was actually to aim at Ben himself with the shotgun and shoot him, like he said he would do himself if a walker ever got hold of him (you can't do that though, it's either shoot the walker or watch him drop).

    I shot the walker, and then let Ben go. But when he told me to get everyone out of there, even though walkers were clawing at his feet, I said to myself "Can I really let him die?" Then I saw the walkers keep coming closer, and Kenny gave me that nod... Since the walkers were everywhere, and Vernon's comment about the train made me think that the herd from Episode 3 was about to show up, I reasoned that trying to save Ben would be time wasted getting everyone else out of Crawford, and thinking about the experience with Carley and Doug I thought he'd die no matter what. I dropped him to save everyone else. I didn't think there was any way to save him without at least putting someone else in danger.

    I felt the same way you did afterward. Especially when I had to explain what happened to Clem. I even said, upon the group coming back to the house "I really hope nobody asks about Ben." When I found out that he actually would have survived had I pulled him up, I was shocked. I felt so terrible, especially considering that I abandoned Lilly, killed Danny and Jolene, and helped Kenny kill Larry in the previous episodes. In my opinion, Ben really didn't deserve to die. He's just a stupid kid who had his heart in the right place. I managed (barely) to keep myself from rewinding, and am going to live with my choice in Episode 5.

  • When the walker in the belltower grabbed Ben I too did nothing but let the scene play out. It was difficult not to grimace when he hit the floor and was set upon by walkers. He was still alive too...yikes.

    The casuaties from e3 were high indeed. Two of my friends were dead in a field. Of my two best friends, one was dead by the side of the road and the other left in the RV with my blessings. Four members of my group, in my charge, were gone. Three of them permanently. The dead were Duck, Kat and Carley. Lilly left the group.

    When Ben finally admitted to being the traitor the consequences of what he had done were upon him. I had no trouble letting him die since my policy is no mercy for traitors. I deemed him a threat to the group or any other group that had the misfortune to welcome him in as we did.

    When it comes to gameplay, I support what Rock114 suggested. I do not do rewinds or have multiple playthroughs. I think it is right to make decisions under pressure. Make the call and take the consequences whatever they may be.

    Welcome to the forum as well.

  • Letting Ben drop was the right decision for you, and you should keep that decision in your game. Look how much you're getting out of the story by facing the decision and second guessing it. You got so caught up hating Ben that you murdered him ... and were glad about it. The only reason you felt bad was because of Clementine. Without her, would your Lee have any conscience left? Did you ever think you would murder someone because they were useless and you had the opportunity?

    As the game progressed, I decided that what Lee really hates are zombies and people who aren't trying or have turned on humanity. I didn't agree with Kenny for killing Larry, but he thought he was protecting the group, so I forgave him. I didn't agree with Ben for making a deal with the bandits, but he tried to save his friends and protect the group. I forgave him, even though I don't think he should be in charge of anything more important than his shoelaces. Ben has been a coward and an idiot, but that just changes how much responsibility he should have, not whether he should live. Even Lilly tried to protect the group by finding the traitor, so I would have forgiven her, too.

    In contrast, I killed the St Johns, even with Clem watching. They were doing what they thought was needed to survive, so what's the difference? They made the choice to abandon their humanity and prey on others, knowing that it would only benefit them. Even Crawford deserved to survive more than the St Johns. Crawford was miserable, but everyone at least had a choice.

    When I saw the situation escalating between Ben and Kenny, I tried to talk Ben down, because I thought Ben should man up and live with his guilt (or at least wait until a better time!). That's the least he could do for Kenny. When the truth came out, I argued for the vote and let Clementine speak up for Ben. When Ben was attacked by the zombie, I shot it. When he was hanging from the edge begging to die, and Kenny gave Lee the nod to let him go, I took one look at the zombies and said, "Fuck you, zombies." I pulled Ben up. Not only did I save Ben's life, but I saved Kenny from losing more of his humanity. It was a great moment.

    When everyone (except Kenny, who is working on the boat) pulled together at the end of episode 4, I felt that all of Lee's hard work is paying off. He's going to die, but his life in the zombie apocalypse has been worthwhile. He's done what he can, and his only regret is not taking Clem seriously enough to stop her from going to the walkie talkie man. If they can just get her back, hopefully Lee's leadership has kept enough humanity in the group that it's a safe place for Clem (well, as safe as anywhere).

    Your Lee, on the other hand, has pushed Kenny closer to becoming a monster and just barely has enough humanity to feel guilt over Ben. I wonder if your Lee will be happy to die saving Clem, thankful that if he goes out a hero, he won't have to face what he's become or how much worse he would become. How long until Lee would have hurt Clem or destroyed her faith in him? And is Clem really going to be safe with someone like Kenny as he becomes colder and colder, especially when Lee isn't around to protect her? Hopefully Christa and Omid survive, as they still have what it takes to care for a little girl.

  • Oh, and as for Rock114, I had no idea if saving Ben was going to get someone else killed immediately, like with the other choices. I see your line of reasoning about not taking the risk, and I agree that Ben's life is definitely at the bottom of people to save. (In particular I can't believe how many times he let Clem down just in episode 4.) If saving Ben did get someone killed, I would have had a really hard time not rewinding, so I congratulate you keeping your save after finding out the alternate paths.

    As it is, I got to enjoy one moment where everything came together. In episode 5, I'm sure I'll get to watch everyone die. :)

  • My Lee dies at the end... I really don't care who else goes. Except for Clementine perhaps.

    Nevertheless, I saved Ben because my policy is not to murder anyone in the group. That sets my Lee apart from Crawford. It's true that Ben served as a liabiliy and resulted in the death of people - but he was no murderer like Lilly was. I'd sooner do away with Lilly than Ben. Ben is stupid and a coward, but that isn't enough to let him become fodder for zombies.

  • I actually really like Ben. I don't know if he gets to a point where he is one of my favorites, but anyway... I just can't be mad at him. He's a teenager. I'm a teenager. I can completely identify myself with Ben, I could see myself being him on a ZA, so I find it very easy to sympathize with his character. And I always hated how people treated him, so I always defended him when I could. The fact he has a good heart is enough for me to forgive him. I believe he'll learn not to be so scared eventually... if he lives long enough, of course.

    And my Lee is, well, like me. Don't really know how to describe that :p. I'm not kicking anyone out of the group or letting them die even if they keep messing up again and again. Even if it's a character I don't like, as long as he's not a bad person, he's staying alive if I can do anything about it.

    And also, I agree with Rock114. Don't rewind, it kinda takes away.... something from the game. It's not the same thing if you do it.

  • I didn't let Ben die on my playthrough, but it wasn't because I started liking him whenever he tried to sacrifice himself for the group. I wanted him to keep living so he could see the consequences of his actions rather than let him "redeem" himself by dieing. It just seemed too much like a cop-out on his part to let him die.

  • @raptor said: I didn't let Ben die on my playthrough, but it wasn't because I started liking him whenever he tried to sacrifice himself for the group. I wanted him to keep living so he could see the consequences of his actions rather than let him "redeem" himself by dieing. It just seemed too much like a cop-out on his part to let him die.



    Same here, I really wanted to drop him but something deep down told me to pull him up.

    I hope it pays off in the end and we don't have a "Omid, Ben what have you done to Omid" moment.

  • I pulled Ben up because he had already been voted from the group so I figured just send him on his way...but when he lives and stays with you I was like oh hell no so I told him to stay when finding clem...but now he's with my boat, my whole group is sooo fucked, thats why i made another playthrough and let his ass drop, no more dead bodies piling up in the ben corner...tho seeing him drop made me cry that I would do that, so both stories were very different for me and equally emotional.

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