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Remake KQ8 project

posted by Anakin Skywalker on - last edited - Viewed by 510 users

Would anyone like to start up or help me out with a project with the goal of remaking KQ8? The idea is to bring the game in line with Roberta's vision of the game and make it the epic KQ8 it could've been. Many have noted that while the final product is generally something Roberta approved, there's also a lot of other voices drowning hers out.

There were so many changes done to the game, so much stuff cut or quickly cut and pasted together. The original game was much larger, but also much more concise.

A lot of stuff had to be junked (two whole levels, Daventry was supposed to be completely different, etc) and nixed mostly because the technology of the time wasn't able to keep up with Roberta's ideas, and because of budget constraints and problems coordinating development between the various teams working on the game, and with a change in management and video game demographics, the question of how much action should be in the game became important. Roberta wanted action, but said action might've only been limited to Bosses had the pressures of changing times not been on her.

I'd just love to do something that could make Mask of Eternity into the classic game it had the potential to be, as close as possible to what Roberta originally envisioned before others began tampering with her ideas, or before what she wanted got sidelined by technological barriers and demographics concerns.

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  • @MusicallyInspired said: There's also the ever-present ebay.



    Your optimistic, I'll give you that. I'm just being realistic. The likelihood is that it won't happen. But we all need something to believe in I guess. If it makes you happy, go ahead and believe it. But don't condemn those who choose to believe otherwise :p....especially when there's no evidence to the contrary. In fact, all the evidence points the other way if you're open enough to read between the lines. Ah, but that's a "matter of opinion"...



    It's not so much condemning people for having different opinions, it is the arrogant, smug and troll-ish way some are going about pushing that opinion. Some seem to be only be around so they can piss on other's parade. And I tend to agree with Mtn Peak. While I don't feel it can be BETTER, I do feel a KQ game, in the right hands, has a lot of potential to be AS GOOD as KQ5 or KQ6.

    You know, the original designers aren't the only people in this world who have talent. They're not the only people who can do a good job. They're not infallible. There's tons of people who have talent and a love of the series and who can make really good games if motivated to do so, as the numerous fan projects have shown.

  • @MusicallyInspired said:
    You can't possibly believe that. There will never be another King's Quest game with the same feel as King's Quest V. Because there already is a King's Quest V. The same level of greatness? The magic formula of the same group of people in the same place in the same era at the same level of technology with the same ideals of game design and the same target audience ready to receive it is gone. That will never come again.



    I do, though. Having the same feel doesn't mean being the same exact thing. If one understands what made KQ5 have the magic that it had, one could easily replicate that sort of 'feel'. The AGDI games replicated the classic KQ5-KQ6 "feel" very successfully.

    Yes, I believe the same level of greatness can be reached. Why not? Like I said, there are six billion people on the planet. There are a good deal of KQ fans. If you took the best elements of say KQ2VGA and transplanted the ideas to a new game, you'd have an amazing KQ game IMO.

    Thinking a new game can be great is not the same as thinking that it'll be the same as 1990 all over again. Even if the exact original design teams got together again and made new KQ, SQ and LSL games, it wouldn't be the same. Just as each game was different from the other. It's not about believing 1990 can happen all over again, it's more that in good hands, the best results of that period can be hit.

    We're not talking about bringing all the old guys in and asking THEM to make lightning strike twice. We're talking about younger, fresher people who love the games and understand just what it was that made those games magical, working on making a new game that captures what they loved. That's totally possible and also actually probably better than if the old designers worked on new Sierra games. I'd trust the games in new hands than in old ones.

  • Yes, anything is possible. It could happen. Whether it will or not is an entirely different ball game. ActiVision aren't going to license the IPs to anybody who won't at least try to make it a marketable success. And seeing as a King's Quest game every bit as good as KQ5 or KQ6 is in no way a popular notion, the evidence just seems to point to the fact that it's never going to happen. ActiVision just aren't interested in that kind of a game right now. They want to create/publish marketably successful franchises with a standard formula that can be milked every year (their words, paraphrased), and we also have their other quote that they have "their own plans" for the KQ IP and don't wish to license it out. Don't get me wrong. Your dedication and loyalty to a new and successful King's Quest (that won't suck) is admirable. I just don't see the point in believing in something as remotely possible as that. I mean, that's a pipe dream, man. I wish it would happen to but the way current marketplace realities (yes I said it) are it just seems like it wouldn't be a very lucrative venture for ActiVision or anybody.

    But maybe I'm misunderstanding your expectations and standards here. Let me ask you a question. What are you expecting this new King's Quest to be?

  • @MusicallyInspired said: Yes, anything is possible. It could happen. Whether it will or not is an entirely different ball game. ActiVision aren't going to license the IPs to anybody who won't at least try to make it a marketable success. And seeing as a King's Quest game every bit as good as KQ5 or KQ6 is in no way a popular notion, the evidence just seems to point to the fact that it's never going to happen. ActiVision just aren't interested in that kind of a game right now. They want to create/publish marketably successful franchises with a standard formula that can be milked every year (their words, paraphrased), and we also have their other quote that they have "their own plans" for the KQ IP and don't wish to license it out. Don't get me wrong. Your dedication and loyalty to a new and successful King's Quest (that won't suck) is admirable. I just don't see the point in believing in something as remotely possible as that. I mean, that's a pipe dream, man. I wish it would happen to but the way current marketplace realities (yes I said it) are it just seems like it wouldn't be a very lucrative venture for ActiVision or anybody.



    All the stuff about Activison I get. The Vivendi years were bad, but I'd argue Activision is worse and much more ruthless than Vivendi, at least as far as the fans are concerned and the fan projects. The only good thing they've done re Sierra is their relationship with GOG.

    The fact, though, that they were willing to license the KQ series to Telltale--pretty much the premier, only truly successful group out there working in the adventure genre--speaks to their willingness to allow an adventure game based KQ. The license may have lapsed or TT may be beyond KQ at this point, but it still shows that Activision had at least a vague idea that a KQ game would be more successful in the hands of adventure game developers. In the Vivendi years, Vivendi wanted to make generic action, RTS and RPG games out of the series, and farmed them out to developers who had no grounding whatsoever in adventure games.

    TT may not have been the best choice, but commercially speaking, they're really the only group making adventure games successful.

    You have to remember, even with KQ5-6, Sierra wasn't making these games out of the kindness of their hearts. They were dumbing down the adventure genre with the point and click interface and less options to make it more accessible for new demographics. The entire history of the adventure genre really is one of it being progressively dumbed down....KQ5-6 just happened to tickle mine and yours subjective fancy. But let's not romanticize Sierra. They were a corporation like any other, especially after they became a public company in 1988. They were't going to invest in something that didn't sell. KQ just happened to be what the public liked in the 80s to mid 90s.


    But maybe I'm misunderstanding your expectations and standards here. Let me ask you a question. What are you expecting this new King's Quest to be?

    My standards and expectations are for a game that has that magical feel, has that sort of atmosphere that made KQ so lovable, that brings back characters I love and introduces new ones, without raping the backstory. A game that introduces fantastic new lands and worlds and incorporates the same mixture of fairy tales, fables, mythology and the like. But I'd hope it'd lean less on fairy tales and more on original ideas or more mature fantasy elements (as KQ5-8 did).

    I'm not really a stickler for gameplay. I never was. If I don't like the gameplay, I don't for example, I don't care much for the AGI games. Ideally, in my own little fantasy world, the world wouldn't have moved on from 1996, and we'd get 2D games with or without a narrator that are somewhere between KQ5 to KQ7 in art direction and between KQ5 and KQ6 in tone. I've never been a purist about puzzles...They're just elements to move the story along.

    KQ's main appeal to me was the wonderful, beautifully designed worlds and wild characters and villains presented, the feel, the cheesiness, the just sort of innocent feel to things. That can be done in any interface or art style. People's main issue with TT seems to be the puzzle issue. For myself, I've never been big on puzzles as I said. KQ was much more than just a puzzle game to me. They were just sort of triggers to move the story along.

    Now does that mean I agree with TT's exact methodology? No. It shouldn't be AS EASY as TT does it, it shouldn't feel like a movie game..But I don't really care about puzzles. I do think the puzzles should be more logical, more intelligent, and more intwined with the story. You can have moments of moon logic or out of left field puzzle solutions (like the Yeti + Pie puzzle)--but it shouldn't be as over board with that as KQ5 was.

    I hate reboots, so fuck that.

  • @Anakin Skywalker said: The fact, though, that they were willing to license the KQ series to Telltale--pretty much the premier, only truly successful group out there working in the adventure genre--speaks to their willingness to allow an adventure game based KQ. The license may have lapsed or TT may be beyond KQ at this point, but it still shows that Activision had at least a vague idea that a KQ game would be more successful in the hands of adventure game developers. In the Vivendi years, Vivendi wanted to make generic action, RTS and RPG games out of the series, and farmed them out to developers who had no grounding whatsoever in adventure games.

    TT may not have been the best choice, but commercially speaking, they're really the only group making adventure games successful.



    That's true. I can't dispute that ActiVision were at least considering putting KQ somewhere somewhat more suitable to its namesake. But we don't even know if they still are licensing it to Telltale or not. We really don't. For all we know, the license could have expired. Maybe this kind of thing happens all the time in business but game developers don't advertise all of the licenses they receive. Telltale happened to this time. Who knows?

    You have to remember, even with KQ5-6, Sierra wasn't making these games out of the kindness of their hearts. They were dumbing down the adventure genre with the point and click interface and less options to make it more accessible for new demographics. The entire history of the adventure genre really is one of it being progressively dumbed down....KQ5-6 just happened to tickle mine and yours subjective fancy. But let's not romanticize Sierra. They were a corporation like any other, especially after they became a public company in 1988. They were't going to invest in something that didn't sell. KQ just happened to be what the public liked in the 80s to mid 90s.

    And this evidence of continuing devolution is something you support and consider a defense for your case?

    My standards and expectations are for a game that has that magical feel, has that sort of atmosphere that made KQ so lovable, that brings back characters I love and introduces new ones, without raping the backstory. A game that introduces fantastic new lands and worlds and incorporates the same mixture of fairy tales, fables, mythology and the like. But I'd hope it'd lean less on fairy tales and more on original ideas or more mature fantasy elements (as KQ5-8 did).

    I'm not really a stickler for gameplay. I never was. If I don't like the gameplay, I don't for example, I don't care much for the AGI games. Ideally, in my own little fantasy world, the world wouldn't have moved on from 1996, and we'd get 2D games with or without a narrator that are somewhere between KQ5 to KQ7 in art direction and between KQ5 and KQ6 in tone. I've never been a purist about puzzles...They're just elements to move the story along.

    KQ's main appeal to me was the wonderful, beautifully designed worlds and wild characters and villains presented, the feel, the cheesiness, the just sort of innocent feel to things. That can be done in any interface or art style. People's main issue with TT seems to be the puzzle issue. For myself, I've never been big on puzzles as I said. KQ was much more than just a puzzle game to me. They were just sort of triggers to move the story along.

    Now does that mean I agree with TT's exact methodology? No. It shouldn't be AS EASY as TT does it, it shouldn't feel like a movie game..But I don't really care about puzzles. I do think the puzzles should be more logical, more intelligent, and more intwined with the story. You can have moments of moon logic or out of left field puzzle solutions (like the Yeti + Pie puzzle)--but it shouldn't be as over board with that as KQ5 was.

    So we really aren't on the same page here at all. I consider puzzles paramount. Everybody keeps saying "who cares about puzzles" but I promise you eventually you'll get bored without them. I mean, and I know you addressed this already, but Telltale have already gone the route of removing puzzles. That's where the road leads for better or worse. If you support it you must support that direction. If you don't think the puzzles should be as easy as Telltale's or as hard as KQ5's (I simply just can't agree on the notion that KQ5 is a completely illogical mess of random puzzles that have no connection to the story at all) then I think you're narrowing the field of likelihood to an even smaller window of possibility than you're dreaming it up to be.

    But either way I'm sure you'd be happy with something from Telltale, if they still have the license, judging from what you've just told me. They'll certainly provide a new King's Quest that won't rape the backstory or smother you with puzzles. Maybe it'll be everything you wished it would be. Maybe afterwards, though, it'll only feel just ok. That's how I felt about DNF when it came out. I wanted to love it...I really did. I was a big fan and I waited 12+ years for it. In the end, though, I had to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't all that great at all. I'm just afraid the same thing will happen to you when and if a Telltale King's Quest (or any King's Quest) comes out. That's just the way nostalgia works. Nothing will be able to measure up.

    And this is where I've learned to accept that moving on and looking to newer horizons is just the more healthy approach instead of pining for old franchises to be reborn again. Again, if it does happen, and happens well, I'll accept it with open arms. But I'm not expecting anything. You only get yourself disappointed that way anyway. Heh, it'd be funny if after it happened I was more happy with it than you because you built it up in your mind as something it can never be and I never did. :)

    Well, I understand where you're coming from now. I see that we're not looking for quite the same thing in a King's Quest title, and that's where the bulk of our friction is coming from. Good luck on your wait, I hope it's worth it for you.

  • Why are people taking this thread so far off topic?

  • @MusicallyInspired said: That's true. I can't dispute that ActiVision were at least considering putting KQ somewhere somewhat more suitable to its namesake. But we don't even know if they still are licensing it to Telltale or not. We really don't. For all we know, the license could have expired. Maybe this kind of thing happens all the time in business but game developers don't advertise all of the licenses they receive. Telltale happened to this time. Who knows?



    Exactly, I don't know for sure.


    And this evidence of continuing devolution is something you support and consider a defense for your case?

    Not something I support so much as that I feel the adventure genre does need to change in some way to survive. Not to the extent that TT has done it, or the way Roberta tried it, but we can't stick to the circa 1990 model that KQ5-6 had, in a commercial game anyway. It'd be perfect if we could. I don't think that adventure games should devolve to the point of being almost non-interactive, ala TT. Something along the lines of like, a more interactive KQ7 would be interesting, something like the route SQ6 took. I'm not arguing a case for TT, more that KQ should survive.


    So we really aren't on the same page here at all. I consider puzzles paramount. Everybody keeps saying "who cares about puzzles" but I promise you eventually you'll get bored without them. I mean, and I know you addressed this already, but Telltale have already gone the route of removing puzzles. That's where the road leads for better or worse. If you support it you must support that direction.

    I don't feel there should be "no puzzles", I just think there has to be something else that can supplement an adventure game as a story trigger ALONG with puzzles. We can't base the entire game around simplistic puzzles anymore. Maybe harder puzzles, more intelligent ones, I don't know. Maybe some character interactions can be used as story triggers. Puzzles should remain, though, of course. But we have to alter it somewhat to modernize things. Just as things would certainly be boring without puzzles, so is doing the same exact thing with every game. I mean we can't stay stuck to one model. We have to modernize that model, at the very least.

    I support KQ continuing. Like I said, TT wasn't the perfect company to go to, from my own perspective, but they're what we've got. From a gameplay perspective I may not like what TT does, but for myself, a bad KQ game is worse than none at all, because if it sells well, it might show people are still interested in the series. At the very least, a TT game offers a chance to have a new adventure game KQ, and I do think TT might change up their methodology to allow for puzzles in a KQ game. They're not stupid people--they know the KQ fanbase is very hard to please and very particular, and what we do and don't like. I'd hope they'd try to change their model a bit for KQ and put puzzles in.

    I just want a fighting chance for my favorite series to survive, even if TT isn't the perfect vehicle for this. It's not about 'brand love', it's more that I love the series and don't want it to die completely when there is so much more that can be done, when there are so many more great stories that can be told. I want to go on a new adventure playing as one of the Royal Family in a game that isn't an RPG hybrid or something. I miss the old characters.

    In an ideal world, KQ would be in the public domain or Activision would just license it to any interested party, and IA, AGDI, POS, Akril and everyone else could make their own KQ games, all in their own directions with their own ideas. That'd be so amazing.


    If you don't think the puzzles should be as easy as Telltale's or as hard as KQ5's (I simply just can't agree on the notion that KQ5 is a completely illogical mess of random puzzles that have no connection to the story at all) then I think you're narrowing the field of likelihood to an even smaller window of possibility than you're dreaming it up to be.

    I don't feel KQ5 is an illogical mess myself, but many do nowadays, you know? KQ5 is and always has been my favorite KQ game. Like I said, if time could've stopped in an era where a KQ5 style game would sell tons of copies, that'd be perfect. But nowadays a game with KQ5's kind of puzzles would be mocked by most people.


    But either way I'm sure you'd be happy with something from Telltale, if they still have the license, judging from what you've just told me. They'll certainly provide a new King's Quest that won't rape the backstory or smother you with puzzles.

    If they could capture KQ5's feel without it being a movie game like Back to the Future, I'd be satisfied. Not happy as a pig in shit, but satisfied. Like I said, adventure games do need puzzles, so I'm not like anti puzzles or anything, I just feel we nee smarter puzzles.


    Maybe it'll be everything you wished it would be. Maybe afterwards, though, it'll only feel just ok. That's how I felt about DNF when it came out. I wanted to love it...I really did. I was a big fan and I waited 12+ years for it. In the end, though, I had to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't all that great at all. I'm just afraid the same thing will happen to you when and if a Telltale King's Quest (or any King's Quest) comes out. That's just the way nostalgia works. Nothing will be able to measure up.

    DNF? And I know too much about nostalgia. I live in that mindset. But I also realize that nothing is the same....You can't go home again. Even if like, the most perfect KQ game ever--basically a total replication of everything I loved about KQ5 and KQ6 came out--it still wouldn't be the same as it was for me in 1995 or 1996 or 1997 playing those games. But hopefully it'd be enjoyable to me as an adult on it's own merit.


    And this is where I've learned to accept that moving on and looking to newer horizons is just the more healthy approach instead of pining for old franchises to be reborn again. Again, if it does happen, and happens well, I'll accept it with open arms. But I'm not expecting anything. You only get yourself disappointed that way anyway. Heh, it'd be funny if after it happened I was more happy with it than you because you built it up in your mind as something it can never be and I never did. :)

    Moving on, and accepting that something that symbolizes or is associated with the happiest parts of your childhood is dead and can't come back, is very hard to do, to be frank. KQ was a cornerstone of my childhood, really. I have a lot of emotions and memories attached to the series and a great deal of investment in the series itself emotionally.

    I haven't built up TT's game in my mind. It is what is, at best a chance for something I love to survive. I don't expect much in terms of being pleased or disappointed. Being a KQ fan after 1998 is just a story of being disappointed over and over, so I'm sort of emotional numb about it. I'm used to being let down with regard to anything Sierra. My hopes are neither up or down, more neutral on the ground. I want it to happen just so KQ has some fighting chance of being reborn. I have too many things I love dying around me as it is.

    I feel if it comes out and is great, PERFECT. If it comes out and sucks, oh well, I always have the old games. That's basically my point of view.


    Well, I understand where you're coming from now. I see that we're not looking for quite the same thing in a King's Quest title, and that's where the bulk of our friction is coming from. Good luck on your wait, I hope it's worth it for you.

    We actually do agree on KQ. The ideal King's Quest is KQ5 for me; I imagine it might be for you as well. A refined KQ5-esque game--Without the flaws we all can agree on--would be perfect. That would be the ideal new KQ. KQ5 is the gold standard. Where we differ is that you want the series to stay dead and over it emotionally. I'm not over it and probably will never be, and I know that the series could continue and produce so many great entries, if only given the chance. TT's game, if it was successful, would at the very least open the door for more games and show Activision that the series is worth investing in rather than just collecting dust.

    It's not so much that I have a different conception of KQ from you, it's more that I realize some things have to change, if it is to survive as an adventure game, because the genre itself has changed. It's not so much that a difference in opinion, more a response to changing times.

  • [quote]I don't feel KQ5 is an illogical mess myself, but many do nowadays, you know? KQ5 is and always has been my favorite KQ game. Like I said, if time could've stopped in an era where a KQ5 style game would sell tons of copies, that'd be perfect. But nowadays a game with KQ5's kind of puzzles would be mocked by most people.[/quote]

    I agree this is true, but...

    [quote]
    If they could capture KQ5's feel without it being a movie game like Back to the Future, I'd be satisfied. Not happy as a pig in shit, but satisfied. Like I said, adventure games do need puzzles, so I'm not like anti puzzles or anything, I just feel we nee smarter puzzles.[/quote]

    ...I don't agree that KQ5's puzzles aren't smart or as removed from the story as you and others say they are. Everything felt entirely natural and fitting to me when I played it as a child and when I continue to play it today.

    And DNF = Duke Nukem Forever

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  • Well, it's been fun, guys. And with that, I'm bowing out early. Enjoy the games and have a nice forum. Bye.

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