159 Comments
  • Nnno, it's mostly Ben's teenage stupidity mixed with Lilly's paranoia that caused Carley/Doug's death.

    • Lilly's paranoia was exacerbated by Kenny's actions.

      • I like how people dislike my comment without providing evidence to the contrary. Cute.

        Lilly trusts people less after Kenny and possibly Lee help to kill her dad. This is logical.

        • It's still her fault, just because she was paranoid and that that maybe Carely was the one giving the bandits supplies, that is no reason to shoot her. No, Lilly shot Carely because Carely insulted her(called her a "scared little girl, etc"). She's a murderer, and sure, maybe her paranoia is caused by Kenny and Lee, but killing Carely? That was all on her.

          • In the same way it can be argued that Katjaa's death is still her fault, as she chose to commit suicide, so Ben wasn't responsible.

            If I was in the position where I thought everyone in the group hated me and were plotting behind my back, and then Carley insulted me and basically said I had done a shit job, I would probably snap. I wouldn't shoot her, no, but then again my dad hasn't been murdered.

            • Whatever, I never really liked Lilly because as soon as you meet her she's trying to kick you out, and she just generally seems like a mean, negative person. ... And I also don't think that Ben is responsible for Katjaa's death.

              • Rewatch the scene and you'll see she rethinks and says that they shouldn't throw you out. She argues with Larry.

                • No, she argues with Larry about killing Duck, not throwing them out. Also, my main reason for not liking Lilly is that even if you support her entirely, she still throws you under the bus when she kills Carely, telling everyone about your past, and then if you say you want to leave with her, she just leaves you behind anyway.

                  And it's still entirely her fault that Carely died, no one elses.

                  • Yes, Carley's death is entirely her fault in the same way that Katjaa's and Duck's death are their fault, not Ben's.

                    • Katjaa died because she committed suicide, Duck's death is because of the bandits.

                      And Carely died because Lilly murdered her.

                      I'm really not sure there's that much more to it.

                      • Lilly murdered her because her mental state had been pushed to breaking point by both Kenny and,to a lesser extent, Carley.

                        Saying Carley died just because Lilly murdered her is like saying Duck died because a walker bit him. You miss the big picture that way.

                        • Yes, there were reasons for why Lilly killed Carely, not many, and not good reasons, but there were. Still, it's not Kenny's fault.

                          Lilly killed Carley, there were reasons for why she did it, she didn't just randomly decide to shoot her, but regardless, the blame of Carley's murder falls to Lilly, and her alone.

                          • Not trying to be rude in anyway but every time I see someone talking shit about Kenny you come in a start shit talking the person that was talking shit about Kenny. Do you ever defend any other character other than Kenny? I have nothing against Kenny but lets face it he isn't the best character ever, in fact no character is the best. I know this will get like 1000 dislikes but I am just pointing that out.

                            • Kenny's main problem was he was cowardly for most of Season 1 (with very brief periods of not being a coward), up until the end where he finally did something brave.

                              Not helping to save Herschel's son even after Duck was safe.

                              Being so gung ho to kill Larry (who definitely deserves to die in a zombie apocalypse but he could have waited until he actually DIED before smashing his head in, or at least giving Lee a chance to try to save him)

                              The kid in the attic.

                              Automatically deciding he should kill Lee when they were trapped in the attic before TRYING to figure some way out of there.

                              How hard it is to get him to come with you to save Clementine if you ever don't go along with every single thing he asks

                              Wanting Lee to let Ben fall (Ben did not get Duck or Katja killed - he was trying to make sure the bandits would NOT attack).

                              Trying to attack Molly from behind even after it was clear that Lee and Molly were no longer fighting - which drew the horde over

                              He did have ONE positive moment - helping Lee up when Larry punched him in the pharmacy. Other than that, the only moment of heroism was in the end, where he either seemingly sacrifices himself for Ben, or seemingly sacrifices himself for Krista (and the walkie talkie to help Clem) - and the fact that even if you don't go with his ideas all the time, he MIGHT still go with you if you tell him to 'do it for Clem'

                              That's why I really hope it's Kenny who comes back - he had that moment of redemption towards the end, and it would be nice for that to be rewarded a little by living at least a little longer.

                            • One, I don't "start talking shit about the person that was talking shit about Kenny". I've very rarely resorted to insults here, and most of the time the other person started it if that is the case.

                              I do defend other characters, it's just that people hate on Kenny or Lilly the most. I'm not going to defend Lilly, so...

        • I like the part where you throw out baseless assumptions then demand that everyone prove you wrong without you proving your self right.

          Then insult everyone who has decided to disagree with your unfounded idea by calling them cute.

          I think you should improve yourself and the way you communicate with others by

          A: providing at least a tiny amount of evidence to support your claim in the initial sentence to serve as a conversation starter, (EG 'Lilly's paranoia was exacerbated by Kenny's actions...BECAUSE he argued with her alot' (not that I believe that is a strong argument).

          AND B: When people disagree with you, instead of insulting them, if they haven't provided evidence that counters or overshadows your evidence, then ask them why they disagree with you.

          Keep in mind you didn't provide evidence to your initial statement, then insulted people for not providing evidence against it. This is what I am referring to. Also, I fucking hate it when people insult others merely for disagreeing.

    • It wasn't Ben's fault. It was Lee's fault for removing their last delivery.

  • I think all those points could be answered with "Carley/Ben was about to get shot anyway"

  • God dammit, don't you see it? It was DUCKS fault! He started everything! Bandit's wouldn't attack, they would take supplies and go. Lee took supplies before they did it. Alone, he'd NEVER find it! Too URBAN. It was DUCK who helped him, gave clues, duck and his super detective skills. DUCK is responsible for all mess, Lilly's madness, Carley's death and everything what happened after.

  • I don't think Kenny can be blamed for this. He DID vote, he voted to stop what they were doing. Lilly was going to carry on with her inquisition regardless of the RV being stopped or not, the walker just gave her an excuse. Kenny obviously had no idea EXACTLY what was going on with them, because he was concentrated on getting the walker out from under the RV, so he didn't even know that Carley or Ben NEEDED to be defended. As for getting everyone's attention, well, he wanted to know what was happening. That seems pretty reasonable given all the shouting and swearing that was going on.

    You can't really blame Kenny for anyone's death solely by his actions during the argument. If you want to blame anyone right there, you can blame Ben for not coming clean. HOWEVER, you CAN blame Kenny for Lilly being in that state of mind to begin with, because of what happened in the meat locker. Pre-Dead-Father Lilly wouldn't have pulled that trigger. But his actions in the meat locker are really another discussion entirely, as well.

    • Larry was already a walking bomb, and the St. John's were the match. Kenny just put out the flames from the explosion, so-to-speak. And Carley wasn't there when Larry died, kept the group safe, did what she was told, etc. Lilly had no reason to shoot Carley except for her own problems, which made her unfit as leader to begin with. People blame Ben, people blame Lee, people blame Clem, people blame Duck, meh, I blame Lilly as I've said before for people's deaths, but what can ya do? I say let by-gone's be by-gone's unless/until Kenny or Lilly show up again. Just how I feel.

      • Larry being risky doesn't mean it'd be logical for his daughter to agree to his killing or not suffer for it

        • Did I say she should? Doesn't mean for Lilly to get 'revenge' on someone, especially if she doesn't have the proof. Then you're just waving the gun around. She was the leader, and a leader spitting out accusations at a time of stress wasn't a good time. Carley/Doug gets caught in the middle of the dispute, and pay for Lilly's pulling of the trigger. She could get depressed, or angry, or whatever she was feeling, but if it gets in the way of her leading, then she should have stepped down, even if temporary. If she couldn't trust anyone, then why exactly was she in the group? She could leave.

          I cannot say Kenny/Lee were in the right, but in the apocalypse, no one said the 'right thing' was the best thing. They played it safe. Lilly didn't do the right thing, and got nothing out of it except spread bloodshed.

      • Your point is made invalid by Larry taking a breathe from the CPR you use on him, he was saveable.

        • And if he was? Firstly, the man was a d*ck to the others, and was a liability more than helpful(going from that POV). Also, IF he survived the heart attack, he would be in no condition to go anywhere, at least not on his own. The guy weighed over 300 pounds, so who was going to move him? Also, they had no medication for him to use, since the St. John's searched them clean. Also, the same St. John's were coming to kill the group; there was no time to waste. Had they wasted the time to save Larry, either the St. John's would have killed Clementine as she came through the vent, or they would have never gotten the vent off to begin with because you definitely weren't going into Larry's pockets then. IF the group somehow escaped the meat locker, Katjaa or Duck might have been killed already(most likely Duck, since they needed Kat). Or the walkers would have come through the fence before the group was ready to go. Larry simply wasn't getting out of there, and if they had tried, they could have easily traded Larry for Lee, or Kenny, or someone else's life.

          Larry was a time bomb. Try as long as you like, but a bomb always has a risk of being set off, and you don't want it to happen while others are near.

          • If Larry had lived, Carley would've too, Duck and Katjaa wouldn't have got bitten, charles wouldn't have had to die to save Clem, really, everything would've been better with just another set of hands, assuming he didn't get shot while selflessly albeit rashly resisting the initial bandit attack.

            • Katjaa was never bitten only duck was. Katjaa ended up committing suicide because she couldn't live without Duck.

              • You know what I meant man, I was just saying those two wouldn't have ended up dead, atleast not like that, he was a grumpy old man who made brash and often bad decisions, that doesn't make him a cold-hearted old fart, he was short-tempered, sure, but the reason he hated Lee so much isn't only because of his prejudice against the killer side of him, it was also because he was trying to protect his daughter AND clementine, or he wouldn't have even mentioned her in your close up of him, If he had lived Lily wouldn't have snapped and Ben would have got kicked out of the group then and there, which I resent, but it would have ended better, unless he died at the motor-inn raid.

                In my opinion Larry has the most developed personality and morals of the drug-store group, in every scene he was in, he added tension, and you could see where he was coming from if you weren't just seeing a asshole old man, he wasn't so bad, just soooo grumpy, seeing that scene where he said 'It's just the hunger, its getting to me', after mark said Lee defended him, was proof enough of this.

                He was the medium of the drug-store group, the truth is, the group in every sense and every way, despite what people say, would've been better off with him around, as him and lily were the first to take action in every scene they were in, even in the last one that ended Larrys life, as he desperately tried to get the group out of the locker, albeit in a stupid way.

                Larry is not even close to a hero, but he can be when he needs to be, as evidenced in the axe scene, he wouldn't just 'let' anyone in the group get killed unless he had a reason to, and obviously by that scene he didn't want Lee dead as much as everyone thinks past the initial attempt on his life, he'd try to save anyone in the group as fast as anyone else.

        • Actually no, he could've been reanimating. Telltale said themselves that the breath could mean anything, they wanted Larry's reanimation to be really ambiguous.

    • Agreed completely. You can even blame Carley for her own death (as much as it pains me to say - I liked her!) indirectly - she shouldn't have been sassing a woman clearly on edge who was also carrying a gun. They needed to try talking down Lily - she was WAY too emotional after what happened with her dad. Carley was stuck in a case of "you mess with the bull, you get the horns" and this particular argument with Lily got her killed. She wasn't wrong for standing up for herself, but going up against an emotionally unstable person who already doesn't like you WITH A GUN is a bad move. It was definitely also Ben's fault for not saying anything (but he would have probably gotten killed and he saw this, so he kept quiet), which in turn also gets Doug killed.

      • Lilly kinda just goes with it, though. Trying to justify it? Kenny had a purpose to kill, at least. Lilly just takes a healthy, innocent life regardless on whom you chose. I wonder if people would have gotten madder if Kenny was the one shot and killed, considering his fanbase and that he had a family to care for, and his relationship with Lee. Would've been interesting, at the least.

        • Well, if you think about it, so did Lilly. Like she said, stealing your supplies is like slipping into your room and cutting your throat at night-- you die. Well, she made a quick assumption, but so did Kenny. Kenny didn't even give Larry a chance he just smashed his face. Lilly jumped to conclusions also, and shot Carley. But if she did steal the supplies, she had a reason to do it, just like Kenny.

      • It's not like Carley knew Lilly was psycho enough to shoot her, they'd been in the same group for months. If she knew how dangerous Lilly was I bet you she wouldn't have said anything. I pity Lilly but it takes a special kind of person to shoot someone in the back because their feelings are hurt. I even let Lilly back on the RV out of pity, but YOU and only YOU are the person responsible for your actions. At the end of the day, you can't blame anyone for what YOU did, but YOU. Unless you're a moral coward. You fuck up, you own it, at least adults do. Lilly actions are entirely her own. Everyone has reasons to do fucked up shit. Some people give in to rage, or hate or simple ennui, others don't, But when you fuck up, it's no ones fault but your own.

        • Man, psycho is such a ugly word...

          Anger, Depression, Grief, Stress, all of these things can make a non-psychotic person do these things, she is not crazy, she just couldn't control herself and snapped, mentally healthy people do it every day.

  • Ben was to blame for almost everyone's death in Season 1 except Mark and Larry's

  • Well, put it this way: Ben doesn't do the deal with the bandits, bandits don't attack, Duck doesn't get bitten,Carley/Doug doesn't die. So i think it's safe to assume Ben triggered these events unwillingly. Now to answer your question, i think Lily wouldn't leave until someone was "punished" whether or not Kenny had a say in it.

    • "Ben doesn't do the deal with the bandits, bandits don't attack." They don't? Ben, greedy asshole, we're leaving you alone? Bye?

      • Well, like it or not Ben still is the one to blame for what happened at the motor inn. Now granted, Ben wasn't in a position to refuse the bandits, but he could at least warn the group about it,thus giving them time to prepare in case the bandits decide to attack.

    • Ben tried to save the group, and for awhile managed to, they scrounged up more medical supplies to meet the dwindling amount Ben was taking out of the equation, it worked for a long time, they only survived for so long without the Bandits attacking, murdering, ... raping, ETC because of Bens deal, despite what people say about its outcome, it was a farcry from what would've happened if the bandits attacked normally, seeing as they managed to Sneak up and take EVERYONE hostage.

      Someone could say 'Ben was on watch.' But Ben wasn't the only one being held captive was he?

      • We could go on about "what if's" for hours and get nowhere. Now, i'm not hating,nor am i bashing Ben. I have just responded to the OP question, which in that particular scenario, Ben is to blame no matter how you put it. As i said before, a lot of us(including me) sympathize with him simply because we could be like him in the ZA. Does that change the fact that even when he tried to help things didn't end up well for the group? No, it does not.

        • No, if he did refuse the bandits they'd have just kept attacking and eventually broke into the inn, and you know where that leads? no chance for resistence and everyone gets shot and killed on sight.

          Not to mention they had caught Ben already, so thats someone already dead.

          Not to mention the group was already running low on food/ammo/guns, with the bandits pinning them down theres really no hope, and they were until Ben struck the deal.

          I sympathise with him too, I rather liked him and tbh I think he should've lived to the end with Christa too, as opposed to Clem/Christa/Omid, it would've made for a more shocking season 2, when Christa ends up dead and Bens still alive, LOL!

    • Wouldn't the bandits still attack the motor inn regardless? yeah they would leave them alone for a while and an attack would happen sooner or later. Also if they didn't attack, Lily is unstable- I think she would snap sooner or later. That or she would just leave the group.

      • Of course they would still attack, it was stated at the end of episode 2 that as long as the bandits get food from the diary,they have nothing to worry about. Now, the op is asking whose blame is it that Doug/Carley end up shot by Lily. And the answer is Ben.

  • I think you can only really blame Lilly.

    Techinally yes you could blame Ben and Kenny (perhaps Lee and Carley/Doug) for making her unstable but if that works surely you should blame the st johns for causing Larry's death and the bandits for the loss of the motel as well. And therefore you should blame the zombies, there the root cause of everything

  • No one can really be blamed but Lily for being the one to pull the trigger.

    I can't even blame Ben for anything but giving the bandits medicine without asking the leaders of the group and letting his guilt control him.

  • Doesn't matter.. Carley/Doug are dead. Playing the blame game is pointless. Like blaming Ben, we can all argue if he was at fault for anyones death, but it wont change anything. Put a bullet in the brain and move on!

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