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I Love Clem But Her Haters Have a Point

posted by SaltLick305 on - Viewed by 8.8K users

Hey before I get into any of this let me clarify I LOVE CLEMENTINE so don't think this is anything I have against her but Clem has made some costly mistakes and caused the death of half of the group at least , Lee of course died getting her back and protecting her , Kenny and Ben died while trying to get to her as well , Omid took a bullet to the chest tryig to save her, We know she is just a child and we all love her the way she is but the fact is she did cause the death of some of the most beloved characterz in the game although Indirectly

225 Comments
  • There are Clem haters? Where!?!?!?

    THEY MUST DIE

  • How could you possibly hate this face??? It's so adorable! No matter what mistakes she made. Alt text

  • You might as well blame Lee for Clementine's actions, he was responsible for her after all. Or you could blame all the idiots in the group screwing up all the time, making Lee focus on fixing everything instead of focusing on Clementine.

    As for Omid, he shouldn't have let Clem go into an abandoned building by herself, no matter how horny he was at the time.

  • I think this whole thing is rather interesting actually, people blame the fuck out of Ben when he made bad choices but completely ignores that Clementine has put them into much worse shit then Ben did. Now Ben was acting on his own, not asking for advice or anything, which was really stupid, but i could still see why he did the things he did. I still blamed him for Ducks death, but nobody elses. Clementine has caused/indirectly caused the death of several other people. Once again i can still see why she did what she did, but now the actions are in my mind actually worse than what Ben did. As long as people realize that Clem actually caused the death of more people than Ben did, i'm okay. Then we can go into arguments about how i dislike the whole playing as protagonist that is a child and how a huge amount of the fanbase would gladly stop playing if Telltale killed off Clementine eventually. These are things that piss me off, but don't get me wrong, i love Clementine and "my" Lee was a supreme caretaker that always tried not to hurt her while still preparing her for what would come.

    • You dislike playing as Clem?

      Boo! Bad governor, Bad!

    • Finally someone gets some sense and sees farther away then just being obsessed with her , I lover her but im not blind and while everybody hates Ben for all his mistakes ( rightly so) they just ignore the fact that Clem has made more than a couple mistakes which ended up killing somebody , you dont have to blame her but face the truth , otherwise you are just being childlish

    • Finally someone gets some sense and sees farther away then just being obsessed with her , I lover her but im not blind and while everybody hates Ben for all his mistakes ( rightly so) they just ignore the fact that Clem has made more than a couple mistakes which ended up killing somebody , you dont have to blame her but face the truth , otherwise you are just being childlish

    • I agree, but I loved Ben, too. In fact, he's my second favorite character in the game, behind only Doug, and in front of Nate.

    • How many people did Clem get killed? I acknowledge that Lee and Omid are both her fault, and Ben, if the player saved him and he lived until Episode 5 (I dropped him, so only Lee and Omid for sure), and possibly Kenny. While that those people ARE on her head, I still think Ben was worse. He basically caused the group to implode with his deal with the bandits, causing the deaths of Carley/Doug, Katjaa, and Duck, followed an Episode later by getting chuck killed due to his cowardice. After that it was Brie, because he just had to choose such a wonderful time to tell the aggressive alcoholic redneck that, yes, Ben DID get his family killed. Let's not forget about Molly because it's possible for her to be left behind because he took the hatchet out of the door.

      • Doug or Carley, for one. Clem could've easily handed Carley her ammo, while Lee helped Doug. Let's see... Who else, who else? The Stranger. Vernon, if he died like Joyce implied in 400 days... Hmm... Christa, if she died at the bandit camp (though it's a bit of a stretch... Running out of ideas, you see. It could be argued that, had Omid been there, Christa would've survived)... And that's all I can think of, not including what you mentioned.

        • She was only a kid during A New Day. I don't fault her for being terrified of the walkers once they actually got inside the store. She was a kid, and it was the first week of the ZA. The Stranger? She DID kill him in my game, but only because he was throttling me, and was going to kidnap her afterward. I chock that up to self defense. Vernon... how, exactly did Clem get him killed? Please elaborate. As for Christa, I can't blame what may or may not have happened to her on Clem, because I chose to distract them and saw her run away. I, and by extension Clem, did everything that could have been done in that situation.

          • I realize that, but I'm looking at it objectively. Vernon likely wouldn't have died if Clem weren't kidnapped, enabling the cancer patients to attack, with the only not shit fighter gone. The stranger because if she simply didn't talk to him, he wouldn't have ever gotten to the group, known who they were, or been able to attack them. So technically, she's doubly responsible for everyone who died getting her. That's true, but, had she been stronger, or better equipped, she would've been able to fight them.

            • I actually think that Vernon would still have died, along with a few of the other cancer patients or even some of Lee's group had Clem not been kidnapped. He had no way f knowing that Clem had been kidnapped, meaning he was probably on his way there anyway. With both groups at full strength, well, the shootout could have been pretty bloody.

              The Stranger? I kind of see your point looking at it like that, but I'm afraid it doesn't affect me much because I really didn't care for him all that much. So his death matters little to me. Lee, Omid, Ben (Determinant), and Kenny (Possibly)? Yeah, those are her fault for sure. I'm not willing to go much further because I can't see her having a major role in the death of anyone else. And, as I said earlier, fuck the stranger. Vernon too, for that matter.

              • They didn't know about her being kidnapped, but the stranger didn't know about Lee's group being hungry. Lee would've been able to take care of them with the others by his side. They had one gun between them, and Lee took it, so yeah, there wouldn't have been a shootout. Lee woulda kicked some ass, and maybe there would've been an Andy st John choice to kill or let them go, but Clem wouldn't have been responsible for Lee's actions.

                I was just listing, my friend.

                • They only had one gun? But everyone has one in Episode 5, and they use them to shoot the walkers after they breach the mansion. Huh. Why didn't they pull their guns when Vernon showed up? I mean, as soon as they mentioned the boat, Kenny would have gone for his pistol, at least.

                  I'm confused now.

                  • Is anyone in Vernon's group in episode 5? Also, in episode 4, they're never shown holding guns either, aside from when Lee took Vernon's gun.

                    • Nobody from Vernon's crew is in Episode 5. And the group AREN'T shown holding guns, aside from Lee's Glock and Christa's Beretta, except for that rifle Kenny had when they broke into Crawford. What happened to THAT, anyway? And where did the new guns come from?

                      • *shrug

                        Maybe they were conserving ammo? I guess they just kicked themselves for not putting a couple guns in the armory, and said, fuck it.

                        • As good an explanation as any, I suppose.

                          • Ok this thread got way more active than i was prepared for, and i'm sorry for a late reply and all that, but here goes. The way i'd like to point out that Clem got the whole group got into trouble was that she talked to a stranger(THE Stranger) on her walkietalkie and planned the whole meeting without mentioning it to anyone in her group, putting them all in danger.

                            And when i think about it, it's maybe more of a draw between caused/indirectly caused deaths to the group by Clem and Ben. Also it's possible for either situation to much worse than it did. For example the bandits could've just executed the whole group on the spot, and the stranger could've arranged a trap... a bigger one, not just catching an exhausted Lee. For example he could've been the one that rung the bells but on purpose for clusterfucking the group in the middle of the street.

                            Also, yes, the downvoters kind of prove SaltLicks point, and your statement. Oh you have an opinion that does not fit me in the taste or you like other characters than i do; DISLIKE.

                            Also i'd like to repeat myself that i don't mind as long as people are aware that they were both kids that didn't think of possible consequences and that acted completely on their own, which is a terrible idea at most times. I just don't want people only blaming Ben for everything and believing Clem is a goddamn saint that never makes mistakes. Ben even told us of how sorry he was and exactly how he felt to Kenny if you didn't drop him. Did you see that scene, Rock114 or did you leave the game with the single choice of always dropping him? (Offtopic, i know, but it's a great scene.)

                            And yeah, Molly isn't dead, she just walks off screen if you accidentally shoot her (like we haven't seen those several times already)

                            • Nah, I went back and saved Ben on an alternate profile. My canon save, however, has him dead, and Kenny still kind of a jerk (but a jerk with a heart of gold, at least). That WAS a great scene, and Ben DOES admit that he's sorry for what he did. I stopped hating him after the whole belltower deal (when he said to drop him, even before I actually did) but that scene just made me feel sorry for him. Real pity. I still think, however, that he did more damage than Clem. She sure did fuck up with the whole Stranger deal, pretty bad, too, but Ben... to say he takes it Up To Eleven is sugar coating it.

                              • Well, yes. But the whole thing i wanted to point out is that it appears that the majority of the fanbase only blames Ben for everything and stil sees Clementine as a saint. Ben did fuck up, and so did Clementine. And after what they did plenty of stuff went to shit. But i forgive them, they're kids, they're scared and they make mistakes. As long as the thought itself was good it's ok.

                                Also if the other adults wouldn't screw up as well then maybe Lee or Kenny could look out for the kids more, bonding more with them, so they don't make choices or their own. I felt like they did the things they did because they didn't trust the rest of the group to side with them. That this was the only way to make something happen.

                                • It's quite easy to see why the fanbase thinks that and it goes beyond just viewing Clem as a "saint". Firstly, blaming Clementine for the deaths that occurred because the Stranger took her is just idiotic. You might as well take it all the way back to episode 2 and say it was Kenny's fault or Lee's fault, depending on who took the food. And then take it back further and say the Stranger is truly to blame because of his own failings and mistakes. It is not Clementine's doing that she was KIDNAPPED. She trusted the wrong person, yes, but she was eight years old and swayed by his promises. And again, the Stranger's grudge was due to what either Lee or Kenny did. To pin it on her is to dishonestly sway events in Ben's favor.

                                  Compare all that to Ben, whose own actions made things worse. He could have easily defused the situation with the bandits by telling the group what had transpired, but instead made things worse by stealing and keeping it a secret, putting lives in danger even if the bandits didn't attack. Even if it was for his "friend", he was a moron to believe the bandits were ever telling the truth. In slight fairness to Ben, I don't blame him entirely for what happened to Katjaa and Duck when the bandits actually attacked, since like the Stranger, those were the actions of the bandits alone. However, he still had some hand in it, unintentionally. He also had some hand in Doug/Carley's deaths too, but again, I can understand his fear of being abandoned, so I tend to go easy on him there too.

                                  Not that it matters, since Ben fucked up even more afterwards. Abandoning Clementine to the walkers is what led to Chuck getting separated from the group, leading to his death, and could very well have killed Clementine too if it wasn't for Chuck. Taking the hatchet out of the door was the direct cause of Brie dying, putting everyone's lives in danger, and Molly possibly getting separated from the group as well. To make matters worse, and this is slightly off the main topic but bears mentioning, despite all that he does, the little bastard goes on to get indignant when Lee doesn't fully trust him. It's like Ben just doesn't acknowledge the problems he causes and thinks he deserves more trust than he's worked for. Clementine never defends her actions with the Stranger, even though only a very small part of the blame lies with her, as I pointed out above.

                                  Long post, but some of the responses (not just yours) I'm reading on why Clementine deserves as much or even more blame than Ben are starting to get on my nerves. I understand not worshiping at the altar of Clementine, but that doesn't mean people have to manufacture BS to put her on Ben's level of idiocy.

    • "I think this whole thing is rather interesting actually, people blame the fuck out of Ben when he made bad choices but completely ignores that Clementine has put them into much worse shit then Ben did. Now Ben was acting on his own, not asking for advice or anything, which was really stupid, but i could still see why he did the things he did. I still blamed him for Ducks death, but nobody elses. Clementine has caused/indirectly caused the death of several other people. Once again i can still see why she did what she did, but now the actions are in my mind actually worse than what Ben did. As long as people realize that Clem actually caused the death of more people than Ben did, i'm okay. Then we can go into arguments about how i dislike the whole playing as protagonist that is a child and how a huge amount of the fanbase would gladly stop playing if Telltale killed off Clementine eventually. These are things that piss me off, but don't get me wrong, i love Clementine and "my" Lee was a supreme caretaker that always tried not to hurt her while still preparing her for what would come."

      Which deaths did Clem cause indirectly? Clem can't even be blamed for Lee getting bitten. She needed to see her parents. In my playthrough my Lee told her we would look for them when they got to Savannah and then he lied and told her we would look for them before leaving. If he agreed to look for them as soon as it was safe to do so or while Kenny was working on the boat she wouldn't have ran off .It's Lee's fault she ran off, it wasn't her fault he was bitten.

      As for Ben he nearly got Molly killed by taking the axe out of the door, He got Bree killed and nearly got the rest of the group killed to clear his conscience when he needed to get of his chest what he did in Macon despite Lee warning him now was not the time. If Kenny died it would be his fault because he wanted Kenny to stay with him in the ally so he didn't die alone, He got Duck,Kat and Carly killed because he was secretly doing deals with the bandits and didn't even alert the group the bandits were coming when he was keeping watch on the RV, He got Chuck killed because he ran off and nearly got Clem killed so Chuck had to sacrifice himself to buy the group more time to escape. He single handedly destroyed the group from within, turning brother against brother. He sat and watched Lilly and Carly arguing and fighting over something he was guilty off to save his own arse. Ben deserves the hate he gets. What makes it worst is that he never redeemed himself once. Even if someone could find a way of blaming Clem for someone's death indirectly those occaisions would be less than the occaisions where she saved someone or the group all together. She saves Molly by shooting the walker in the school if she comes along, she saves Omid from the walker at the manor if she doesn't go to the school, she helps the group survive the overrun drugstore by helping Lee barricade the door with the cane,she helps the group get out of the meatlocker,she saves lee by giving him the hammer when he is being attacked by the walker in her house. So though Ben's haters are justified hate for Clem is not.

  • At this point Clementine is a Clementine hater, her guilt is already very easily seen and understood. Can;t wait to see how she deals with it and if she can overcome.

  • You know Clementine blames herself for all those deaths she caused if you choose the "I ran away" option at the dinner table with Luke.

  • You can blame anyone. Let's blame kenny for the boat idea or lets blame the cancer survivors for stealing the boat, hell we can even blame the damn train for bringing us to that god damned city anyways.

  • Except no... it's not her fault. Well Lee and Kenny was kinda her fault but if you think about it Ben, the older person fucked up far more, and caused the death of far more people. I'm sure everyone in the walking dead was responsible for the death of someone, so no her haters don't have a point.

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