159 Comments
  • Maybe you have to be a comic reader to really sympathize but the nonhuman fables really do see the Farm as a prison. They have to stay on this relatively small area for eternity while the human Fables can go anywhere in the world they please, and like it says in the Book of Fables, all the positions of power are held by humans. They feel subjugated because of the way they look and glamours are so expensive that people like Gren live in poverty to afford them or buy black market. It's not hard to understand why Colin or Toad are resentful and try to get away with what they can. In the end, they will have to go but in the short term while Bigby is trying to solve this case, they are fine. I gave Toad money, hopefully he will use it the way he is supposed to, and Colin is safe in Bigby's place.

    • Yes, and that's sad and unfortunate and it'd be great if there was a better solution, but there isn't. Every single time Toad walks outside without his glamour on he's risking everything, and if Colin can't stand being confined to the farm then how is confining him to Bigby's apartment an improvement?

      Moreover, enabling Colin aggravates the situation by causing even more resentment among all the animal fables who aren't best buddies with Bigby and can't just ask him to fund their glamours because he broke their stuff, or let them crash at his place for old time's sake. By flaunting the rules he as Sheriff is specifically supposed to enforce, Bigby also sets a terrible precedent that risks throwing Fabletown into anarchy, a development that they simply wouldn't survive.

      Ultimately, the animal fables being bored and feeling trapped on their big, comfortable farm away from a civilization they wouldn't be able to adapt to anyway shouldn't be more important than protecting all fables everywhere. It's a shame, but being wishy-washy about it and slap-dashing with the rules can get everyone killed. It might be a bit hard to keep in perspective because there's no obvious real-world issues that it reflects, but those are the facts of the situation.

      • I don't think it's gotten to anarchy yet. I think the reason they're not forcing the issue because Toad and Colin haven't left Fabletown . If they left the neighborhood, it might be more cause for concern. Also, Toad has businesses and a child, tied that make it a bit harder for him to just pick up and leave. Even so, Bigby did say that the next time he caught Toad without his glamour he would be sent away immediately. I think and hope Toad knows this is his last chance. As for Colin this is a it of book knowledge but whenever he escapes, he's shipped back. Until they can find a way to keep him from escaping, I don't know what else they can do.

        • But it will. What do you call it when the only law-enforcer in town doesn't follow the basic rules simply because he doesn't feel like it? By letting Toad off all the time and not sending Colin back to the farm as quickly as possible upon finding him in his apartment, he's basically signalling that Fabletown law is theoretical and you only have to follow it if it's convenient or if the Sheriff doesn't like you. And the same goes for rewarding Colin, or more specifically not punishing him, just because he's a good friend. It's hypocritical at best and downright corrupt at worst. Like it or not, Bigby is a figure of authority, and he has a lot of responsibility. Excusing them like that destabilizes Fabletown, and it's only going to get worse.

          • I understand your points and they are valid but I think they just have more pressing concerns at the moment, like trying to catch a killer. Once that is taken care of, they can start reforming their offices.

            • The problem isn't the offices or the policies of the Fabletown government, I don't know what you think needs to be reformed. My issue is that very few players seem to realize the actual importance of Bigby maintaining secrecy and discipline when he has the option, even if he doesn't personally want to, which is completely overlooking and dismissing what's obviously supposed to be a central conflict in the game and a key element of the realism of the setting.

              • I thought that what your point was, that Bigby and Snow are ignoring their duties. Thats what I thought they would need to fix. Your issue is with the players? I dont know what's in everyone's mind so I cant speak to that, but it seems that if the characters in the game arent making this big of an issue of it, than neither would the players. Its not presented as a life and death situation, mostly as an annoyance and if it got to the point where it was crucial, than we'll know and the players will have to make a more difficult choice.

                • Well, that wouldn't really be true. Snow seems to take the secrecy issue seriously, and obviously tries to impose that on Bigby in the fourth episode, forcing him to deal definitively with both Colin and Toad. I just find it curious and wasteful that players tend to go with the friendly, non-confrontational options without even trying to think about it in the bigger picture, which is missing the point of those decisions, and in fact Bigby's job and official role in Fabletown.

                  I don't have a problem with the players, I'd just like to draw some attention to this seemingly overlooked issue in the game, to encourage deeper roleplaying. If you think those decisions have been just annoying and irrelevant until now then I'd have to say you're not paying them proper attention, because they're most definitely crucial to Fabletown as a community, and realistically so.

                  • Im saying its not treated as something so crucial that it has to be enforced immediately, and maybe thats why players arent taking it that seriously. But I feel like Im repeating myself now so I'll let it go. I understand wanting to draw attention to the issue. I hope you feel like you got at least good discussion out of it.

                    • I do, and thank you. But it is that crucial and the game doesn't hide that, it's the very first issue you're confronted with when you meet Toad in the stairway in the first episode, it's the biggest complication in your relationship with Colin and it's the dominating issue in your conversations with both of them in episode four.

                      And besides that it's the key to Fabletown's survival among mundies, and the struggle to afford their glamours is one of the main themes of the downtrodden fables' stories. How can you not realize that it's important? And nobody said the rule had to be enforced immediately, just for the good of the community and without hypocrisy if at all possible.

    • I'm not a comic reader but I sympathized. Toad is a pain in the butt but he had a point about Bigby trashing his stuff so I personally figured I'd give Toad one last chance. I just really hope he does use that money on a glamour and that we will get to see him all glamoured up! If he doesn't then he will have to go to the farm. With Colin, well they clearly have history and as far as I can tell Colin is hiding out at Bigby's so it's not like he's flaunting the fact he has no glamour and he's only going to keep escaping from the farm anyway. Why send him back to a place he can't stand (and will only escape from again anyway) if he's not hurting anyone?

      Ofcourse in my alt save I'm going to have to send them both to the farm. ^^;

      • I completely agree with you, although I only gave Toad money and another chance because I care about Toad Jr. That little squirt shouldn't have to stay in a place like the Farm, which is supposedly a prison. : 0

        • It's not a prison. Look it up, it's an enormous plot of forest and hillside with its own town filled with comfortable houses and farms where animal fables can live and interact freely, so long as they don't actually leave the general area and risk being seen by mundies. I'm personally tempted to send Toad and his son there if only so that Toad Jr. wouldn't have to grow up so lonely and surrounded by people he has absolutely nothing in common with. He'd be happier there. I'd move there myself if I was a fable, whether I was human or animal.

  • As for toad , i gave him crane's money and told him to get a glamour so this is helping and not breaking rules As for colin... Well fuck the rules , he's bigby's friend and i'll break hundreds of rules for him if i have to

    • Apparently so. You're certainly risking hundreds of lives in order to let him crash at Bigby's apartment a little longer. Cheers for friendship.

      • Ah come on. If you see a talking pig in the street you'll think that you're drunk and leave it besides he said that he won't be causing problems it's not like YOU would send your friend to a prison if that was a real situation

        • That would be an actual argument if new yorkers couldn't tell when they're sober. The farm isn't a prison, it's a huge and beautiful and very comfortable place to live without endangering your community. If my friend could inadvertently ruin my life and the lives of everybody I cared about just by hanging around, and in fact only hung around because he was bored, then yes, I'd most definitely send him away. If I was a cop with a huge family to support and an old pal wanted to hide his drugs in my apartment, I'd turn him down too.

          • "The farm isn't a prison" "beautiful and comfortable place to live" Well that's what Reggie said about carver's camp AND NOW LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. It doesn't matter how beautiful and comfortable it is, all non-human fables sees it as a prison that's why they don't wanna get back. And I agree with what you said about sending your friend to the prison but those are totally different situations. Besides we collected a lot of money during the investigation, TellTale should give us the option to give colin some of it just like toad so everyone can get a glamour and live happily(remember that bigby owes him for that house of hay he destroyed at the homelands)... but I really doubt we'll get a happy ending

            • That's true, and it's also irrelevant. Nobody's pointing loaded guns at them for being malcontents, they aren't being mistreated by psychopath darwinists and the only alternative endangers everybody else, and yes, the situation is exactly the same as the ones I outlined. Nobody is saying that it's a perfect or fair solution, but it's the only one that works in the long run. Making exceptions for your friends will destabilize Fabletown and lead to disaster. Don't kid yourself, everybody getting a glamour and "living happily" isn't even remotely possible. Read some of the other comments, most of your arguments have already been discussed.

              • Yeah but you heard what colin said? he said "can't I just hang out here at least" I mean it's not like a mundy's gonna get into bigby's apartment and find colin (I'm just saying that the farm is so terrible place that colin and toad prefer staying in an old apartment than getting beck there, I'm not sayin' that it's like carver's camp) And I know we'll never get a happy ending "Read some of the other comments , most of your arguments have already been discussed" well I'm sorry but I like discussing them anyway. And am I the only one here that sees it's not fair because Bufkin doesn't have to go ? What? just because he works for the business office doesn't mean he gets an exception. But it's better that way , We don't need somebody else to "Discuss" about.

                • Bufkin is the only one who can handle all those books...

                • Listen to their dialogue. Colin wants off the farm because he's been there for 400 years and is bored out of his mind to the point where Bigby's apartment and company and the occasional foray into the city is a more exciting prospect. Toad doesn't want to go there because he feels that he's better than all the other animal fables, and would be humiliated to have to join them. Neither wants to avoid it because it's a terrible place, and neither reason is good enough for me to endanger the rest of Fabletown over it. As for Bufkin, considering that he must be collecting a steady wage for his job as the Woodlands librarian, it's quite likely that he does in fact have a glamour. Unlike Colin he never actually goes into the street and any mundy who manages to find his way into the office would have to be memory-wiped anyway, so maybe he just decides to spend all his time in his natural form.

                  • I don't say that sending them is wrong or something , every choice has it's good and bad side. For me I did not send them to the farm so everyone sees that bigby has changed and that he cares about people. But like you said this could endanger Fabletown. Anyway we'll never know what was the best decision until the next episode

                    • Under absolutely no realistic circumstances will letting Colin stay make Bigby more popular. The other fables who work and starve to maintain their glamours and get to stay in the city will resent him for giving the pig a free pass just because they're buddies. As far as they're concerned, it just makes Bigby a hypocrite who thinks he's above the rules he enforces for the rest of them.

                      Paying Toad back for the damages in episode 1 and making it clear that the money is for glamours or he'll be out on his ass would conceivably make Bigby look more responsible and rulebound, which is why I did that myself, but not if he simultaneously undermines that impression by playing favorites with Colin.

                      I think the choices about Colin and Toad are there just to give the player a sense of how their own Bigby operates on the glamour front, I don't see any particular consequences coming up in the final episode. What bothers me is that the majority of players don't seem to take it seriously enough to think any further than "Send him away? Of course not! He's my friend. Who cares what happens to the community as long as he is where he wants to be?"

                      It's essentially taking a very serious, delicate and complicated issue that defines Fabletown as a community and reducing it to "Friendship trumps everything! Because it's friendship! And friendship is life! Or something! Friendship!"

                      • Wow now take it easy , everyone has his own opinion and everyone wants to do something different. You can't say that people are stupid or they don't take something seriously just because their choice was different. IT'S A GAME! and it doesn't matter because I'm sure if someone had to do something like this in real life his choice will be different. "Friendship trumps everything! Because it's friendship! And friendship is life! Or something! Friendship!" Okay now that cracked me up. Anyway that was one of the best "and the longest" discussion I've had. Hope you feel the same way.

          • colin in episode 1 refers to the farm as a prison and no one who lives there likes it

            • Actually there are fables that love the Farm. There is Reynard the Fox, Stinky the Badger (Toad's best friend), and Mary's Little Lamb (lots of places to graze). There are also the smallest fables in which the males have 1 attempt at getting barleycorn to get a Barleycorn Bride from the Woodlands. And than there are the giants who love sleeping all day, even though they must wear something green, brown, or gray.

  • idk how Colin would make the money to afford a glamour, he says hes broke and he cant work

  • I think it's more about wanting to change how things work, and make sure the rest can actually get glamours instead of being charged too much for them.

    • But that's just it, there's no way to mass-produce glamours. The magic involved is too hard and time-consuming to weave, and the components are too rare and valuable, which is why they have to be so expensive. Nobody is hoarding them, there just aren't enough witches and ingredients available to provide everybody with glamours. It's not because of a rotten system or anybody's greed, it's just physically and logistically impossible. Letting non-glamoured fables run around in public doesn't help anything, and the only way it changes things is by causing problems and risking the community as a whole.

    • The reason glamours are expensive is perfectly mentioned by Off_Ground. The reasons for non-human fables not liking the Farm is because of the size where they can live and the fact they can't leave. The reason for the size is of the cost for warding off mundies through a spell, and the spell has to be cast from the Fabletown Funds, which are supplied by Bluebeard.

      • The Farm is enormous, though. Seriously enormous. The size is a non-issue compared to the fact that they're forced to stay, and controlled by a distant government of human Fables..

  • Toad preferred a car over his and his son's life. Going the safety route Nerissa said, Toad should go to the Farm. Colin on the other hand never gets to the Farm and escapes from the truck. I hope that they'll have a "In line with the comics" achievement to grasp.

  • Since few Fables did leave the Homelands without their wealth, How were Trolls and Jersey able to afford glamours? They may walk upright but it seems that they were a lot of non-human fables that got glamour. Where was the distinction?

  • *pcharl01

    Jersey works for the Crooked Man, Holly runs a bar and Lily was prostituting herself, all of which are arguably lucrative enough to afford them glamours, or possibly just Greenleaf's cheaper, half-assed versions.

    • I realize that, I'm just saying from when they moved to the Bronx, when was the glamour rules implemented? Because from the onset, the animals would have as much of a right to glamour as two legged non humans, no?

      • Most likely, being able to pay a witch to make you look human just started out as one of the loopholes when New Amsterdam grew so big and busy that keeping animal fables unnoticed became impossible and they had to establish the farm, and it's just been the preferred method ever since. That was in the 1600s, Gren and the trolls would have been very effective as workers and laborers or mercenaries, which might have earned them enough money to buy a starting glamour. How toad started out is anyone's guess. Fishing, maybe? And if anything, Jersey started out financed by the Crooked Man as a henchman.

  • I didn't choose to allow Toad and Colin to stay for the reasons you said. I took the money from Crane's pocket and gave it to Toad to buy his glamour. It's not like I just let him walk around in toad form. I decided that Crane's money could best be used helping an impoverished toad and his son, especially given the fact that I destroyed one of his apartments and his car. Crane left for Paris, so he won't be taking that money back. Giving it to Toad for a glamour was the best option. As far as Colin goes, he's a good friend of Bigby's and Bigby did destroy his home, so I don't see the problem in letting him stay at Bigby's apartment if he wants to. As long as he isn't walking around New York, it doesn't seem to be a problem. So, I've only made ONE exception, for Colin, and he'll be staying in my home, not wandering the streets of NY.

    My reasons for thinking Snow was being a bit of a b*tch has nothing to do with her asking Bigby to not kill people. It has to do with her acting outside of her duties in previous episodes. I asked her to stay behind for safety reasons when I went to tell Lily about Holly's death. She disobeyed me, interfered with my investigation, and then proceeded to give away evidence without consulting me first. She was out of line and was impinging on Bigby's duties. She was whining saying "What am I supposed to do? Sit around and do nothing?" when Bigby asked her to stay behind. I felt that was incredibly self-centered. She did it before, when Bigby was going to interview Toad Jr.. She makes everything about her at the most inconvenient times. She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her and that sometimes Bigby has to make calls that protect her and others. She may not agree with them, but she needs to let him do his job. I also don't like how she handled Aunty Greenleaf. She wanted to burn down an ancient tree from the old world. That was so unnecessary and disrespectful, in my opinion. At least confiscate it, don't destroy it forever. I don't dislike Snow, but I do think that she is out of line sometimes.

    • She was royalty so she can't help being a little entitled lol

      • True. :) I have mixed feelings about her. For the most part, I do like her, but she can tick me off on occasion. I think she's a good person and she means well, but it doesn't feel like she really respects Bigby, yet she expects him to respect her. I would like to see their romance blossom though. I look forward to that. She probably won't be so cold once the sparks fly between them.

        • And the sparks almost did fly, but Colin couldn't keep his snout shut. It looked like Snow was more pissed at it more than Bigby, which could explain what he said to Snow in the comics after their memory blockout and that's when she was really pissed at Bigby.

          • So true. :) That was obnoxious. I like Colin, but he can get in the way sometimes. He totally killed the mood in that scene. I should've sent him to the Farm for that, but I didn't. ;)

            • The puzzles are complicating, and it takes a while to notice some of them, Colin's situation is one, remember the line "I've seen the way you looked at Snow, you're not fooling me." I think Bill Willingham should show us how he would play The Wolf Among Us w/ commentary, especially episode 4.

    • I did the same with Toad for the same reason, but a lot of players didn't take Crane's money and sent him on his way with just another warning because they didn't want to do anything so despicable as force him to move to the country to protect the community. And your reasoning about Colin basically amounts to "I was an ass to him when we were kids, so now I let him hide his drugs at my place if he wants to. Just because I'm a captain of the NYPD doesn't mean I can't be a good buddy, and it's only for a few days anyway."

      And that's great, but a lot of players seem to resent her simply because she wasn't as cuddly and unprofessional and gave Bigby some strict orders in this episode, and so break the rules and endanger the community just to be contrary. That's what I'm talking about in the OP.

      • I think we agree on most things then. I don't think that I would have let Toad stay if I wasn't able to give him money for the glamour, especially because I told him about a half dozen times that he had to get one. It did get tiring having to get on his case every time I ran into him. I'll admit that my reasoning behind Colin is definitely selfish and sentimental in nature. I acknowledge that and I'm not making excuses for it. He his Bigby's friend and as long as he lays low and stays in the Woodlands, then I won't send him back to the Farm. If he were to start leaving the apartment, then I would have a problem with it. As far as Snow goes, I think she has a lot of potential as a leader, but I dislike her arrogance. She was a glorified secretary who literally JUST came into a position of power. She ignored the pleas of poorer Fables for a long time as secretary. She doesn't get to be self-righteous towards Bigby, in my opinion. She needs to respect that he's held his position for a lot longer than she's held her's. I just think that she needs to be put in her place a bit and needs some humility. I do like her for the most part. I hope that she becomes a fairer, better leader as time goes on.

        • Actually Snow held her job longer than Bigby since Crane was constantly embezzling funds to play out his sick fantasies. Snow's comments can get confusing. She wants everyone to see Bigby the way she sees Bigby.

        • Snow White is most certainly not a glorified secretary. She's one of Fabletown's original founders from way before Bigby joined up because she asked him to, and almost single-handedly ran everything more or less smoothly for 400 years because both of her superiors were borderline incompetent. She might not have much experience with being openly in charge of things and giving direct orders and expect to be obeyed, and might be a bit rattled over Crane's perving and criminal behavior and Lilly's death while disguised as her right now, but she's a competent administrator who knows what Fabletown needs to stay afloat better than anyone. She's well within her rights ordering Bigby around without apology, being his direct superior now. That doesn't mean he can't stand up to her if he knows she's wrong, but she isn't required to bow and scrape to get him to do his damn job, or even stick her nose in when she feels it's necessary, and for their working relationship to function in the future, Bigby needs to deal with that as much as she does.

          Now she's "come into power" exactly when the entire community is about to blow sky-high, and her first reaction is to try to reel things in and let them stabilize, or at the very least try not to escalate the situation, which is, let's be honest, a WAY safer and more logical approach in the long run compared to Bigby's vague idea of tracking down the entire criminal underground and having a show down, hoping he'll come out on top and maybe find out what the hell is up with those murders along the way, rather than, say, walk into a trap and get killed, leaving the Crooked Man to reign freely over Fabletown without anyone to defend or back Snow up.

    • Show me how you played the game, because I already know you rushed through episode 2. Letting her stay is not protecting her, because the only time Snow is safe is when she's next to Bigby.

      • Well, I have a couple playthroughs, so I don't really rush at all. I love the game and I like seeing the different outcomes. I'm talking about my main/canon playthrough. I didn't rush it. I made a decision based on the information I had. I wanted an opportunity to talk to Holly alone. I feel that because Bigby is the Sheriff he should handle the investigation. I also felt that Snow was in danger and I wanted to protect her. The Tweedles are known to go to the Trip Trap on occasion and I didn't want to unnecessarily put her in a precarious situation. I understand your point about her being safe with Bigby and I did do a playthrough where I brought her along. Ultimately, it doesn't make a difference in the game. The only difference I did notice was Snow's arrogance and hostility when she doesn't get her way. I didn't like that and it's one of the issues I have with her personality now. I feel like she doesn't respect Bigby's office. She wants to be Mayor, Assistant to the Mayor, Sheriff, Detective, and Secretary all at once, but those aren't all her jobs. I think she should focus on working at the Business Office. The Fables are always talking about how they have to wait in line there and that they never get to speak with anyone at the Business Office. If Snow were more focused on her work and less on Bigby's maybe that wouldn't be the case.

        • Now I get it. The reason choosing to let Snow with you should be the fact that Crane acts very suspiciously if you mention trackmarks. With Crane's suspicious actions you can't trust him, can you? You are right on Snow wanting to do too much, she hides her reasons though. The only logical reason being the natural bond between Snow and Bigby, Snow doesn't know the true meaning yet. Snow should hire her own assistant, which she probably will in the next episode.

  • I want the community to stay together as much as possible. If any mundies see Colin, he's a pig, its okay. Toad has one more chance, and if anyone sees him I'll wipe their memory and ship him off. I admit it would get messy, but I don't consider it a risk to all fablekind quite yet.

    • According to Crane, memory-wiping is very expensive. But yes, that's all mostly true. Any pig found wandering the city would immediately be rounded up by Animal Control, though, and if he said anything, for any reason, in that situation it would be all over. An intelligent pig who would divulge anything under duress found by the government would crack Fabletown's anonymity wide open. And he could easily say something in front of the wrong person by accident, no matter what the circumstances.

      It just isn't safe to have him walking the streets, and in the long run, confining him to Bigby's apartment is even worse than confining him to the farm, not to mention that the same rules apply to him as to everybody else. Ergo, he has to go to the farm. Toad is a different problem, he can theoretically afford to keep himself and his son glamoured, and if he chooses not to in the future then there's no excuse not to send him too.

      • Like I said, it would get messy. But it can be handled. I don't agree that he is a risk to the entire fable population. Discovering a talking pig doesn't automatically reveal that theres an entire society of fairytale creatures living amongst humans, and worst case scenario I erase their memories, no matter how expensive. Obviously that's a last resort and it shouldn't be a problem anyways, Colin stays inside and Toad is supposed to be getting his glamour. I would be more concerned about Bigby, Woody, and Jersey blowing everyones cover with their unglamoured pawn shop brawls.

        As for the rules applying to everybody, you're right, I made a conscious decision to choose friendship over the rules. It's just more important to me.

        • You're not thinking it through. The mind-wipe spell worked at the police station because it was a public place clustered with officers who thought they were dealing with a person of interest in a single, ordinary murder investigation, and Crane only noticed and reacted as quickly as he did because the crime scene was on the Woodlands' doorstep and because it was Bigby that had been taken into custody. If Colin is discovered as a talking pig by anyone, he'll be shipped off to a research facility that may or may not be public and questioned and studied and experimented on with drugs, and it could take weeks before anyone in Fabletown realize that he was taken at all.

          Colin is smart, but under that kind of treatment he'll eventually let it slip that there are more like him, and as soon as his hosts hear that, they'll start pumping him in earnest, up to and including torture, and he isn't trained to endure interrogation like that. Information about Fabletown will be in scientific and government correspondence all over the world long before Bigby can locate him and mount any sort of rescue or damage control. Best case scenario, Fabletown has to disappear, leaving New York and the farm and try to find new places to settle in a now overpopulated world, and some would resist and stay behind and risk being caught too. All because Bigby is too soft to do his job and force Colin to stay on the farm as opposed to crashing at his apartment for an extra while.

          And yes, but Toad wasn't in glamour the first time we ran into him, and he had no excuse then except that he didn't want to spend the money. I find it highly likely that he'll be caught out of it again in the near future, and then it's off to the farm, no questions asked.

          I'd also argue that it's less a conflict between friendship and rules than between friendship and Bigby's personal responsibility and integrity as the supposed lawkeeper of Fabletown and its security in general.

          • I've thought it through. I don't consider all that happening very likely, and as I mentioned there are much more out in the open threats to the community. And again, it shouldn't come to that anyway since Colin doesn't just go around chatting people up in public and I'm trusting Toad to get a glamour. I don't think anyone is disputing that its a risk, its just one that some players are willing to take.

            The way I play, Bigby isn't worried about how people see him as a lawman. He runs the show how he sees fit. So I typically judge each situation independently, as opposed to blindly enforcing every rule to the letter in the name of being fair.

            • How are you gonna pin Toad into getting a glamour than? The best way is to tell him that Colin is going to the Farm, because he won't have any choice except glamour and Farm. Also it would make the most logical sense considering the comics, since Colin wasn't at Bigby's apartment because the same lines are repeated that are in episode 1.

              • If Toad doesn't get the glamour, he'll go to the farm, regardless of Colin. I told Toad Colin can stay because he stays out of sight. I'm not worried about the comics. Snow will probably ship them off while Bigby talks to the Crooked Man anyway.

                • That's not what I meant. I meant convincing him to get a glamour, which you can't fully do if Colin doesn't go to the Farm. Toad set rules for TJ, but doesn't obey the rules he implemented. By going by the rules, while secretly knowing Colin will return, Bigby is in full position to convince Toad to get a glamour. If Toad decides to go against better judgment he will have only himself to blame, because he won't be in a position to argue.

                  • I know what you meant, I'm saying I don't care about Toads opinion on the Colin situation. If he doesn't get the glamour, he'll go away, whether he argues or not. I don't need to coax him into it.

            • It's not very likely, but it's a significant risk in allowing Colin to stay in a highly populated New York, and if he is discovered as a talking, intelligent animal then the rest really is only a matter of time. I don't know why you think Colin is particularly discreet, he's a nice guy and all, but I've never seen him display anything even resembling impulse control, he whines constantly whether it earns him any favors or not, and talks thoughtlessly all the time.

              You have to remember that he's used to being surrounded by other fables who wouldn't think twice about hearing him talk. He wouldn't run his mouth to everyone and anyone about Fabletown, no, but he could easily say something without thinking or by accident, and no scientist or government official in the world would have any compunctions about coaxing information out of a pig by any means necessary as soon as they got their hands on him.

              There's also a difference between "blindly enforcing every rule to the letter" and doing your job by acting in the actual best interests of the community. Your Bigby may be a sensitive guy who tries to solve each situation separately and with the best intentions, but Fabletown is still all the more likely to collapse around him because he's picking and choosing which rules to follow and enforce based on his own attachments and convenience, and doesn't take the risks and consequences very seriously.

              • The way I understand it, Colin doesn't go out much. He has permission to stick around Bigby's apartment, not roam the streets of New York City. There is a huge amount of middle ground between letting him stay at Bigby's in lieu of the farm, and letting him loose in The City. It isn't so much about sensitivity as it is picking my battles. Due to the reasons given, I don't consider your scenario a threat. My worries are placed elsewhere.

                • When Bigby returns to his apartment in episode 1, there's a box of Chinese food on his table that he didn't order, and Colin is gone again when Bigby wakes up from his nap. It's pretty clear that he does in fact go out, and again, to him, there wouldn't be much point in escaping the farm if he was going to let himself be confined to one, or even a few apartments. He also has to avoid Snow, Crane and Grimble, and all the fables who would turn him in to them, as they would all happily send him back, so it's not even likely that he sticks around the Woodlands complex. Fabletown itself isn't a single enclosed neighborhood either, the buildings they own are several blocks apart and mundies walk freely around and between them.

                  • I wasn't aware of that when I made the decision, but I'm simply not worried about it. When I justified Colin staying to Toad, Bigby says Colin stays out of sight from mundies. I obviously expect Bigby to set some ground rules, and if he gets turned in by a fable, well then the gig is up, off to the farm with him.

                • It's better to be safe than sorry. And you still don't understand what I'm saying. Toad can get a glamour which will keep him safe from mundies, Colin can't and is known to be a pain in the ass when you least want it, remaining at Bigby's is one of them, he will return anyway and when you send him to the Farm you give an indication that you know he'll return.

                  • I'm pretty positive I get what you're saying. I understand everything you just said, and I stand by my decision.

                    • Saying that Colin stays out of sight won't make Toad get a glamour, it will make him more inclined to be scared of his surroundings. He will know that Bigby deserves respect as the sheriff of Fabletown.

                      • Toad will get a glamour because if he doesn't, he'll go to the farm. Good, he should be more aware of his surroundings.

                        • He won't be aware, but scared. He won't get a glamour and he'll be avoiding Bigby and Snow and every other fable. And he'll think Bigby is a greedy asshole if you didn't send Colin to the Farm. The situation is a lot more complicated because you need to assess the situation. Colin to the Farm and money for Toad is the best possibility of Toad getting a glamour.

                          • Fear makes people pay attention. I don't give a shit what Toad thinks about it, so that isn't a problem. He has one last chance to get a glamour, and if he doesn't he goes away. I did give him the money, so it isn't complicated at all.

                            • Except Toad is arbitrary from what we already know. Knowledge that someone else was sent to the Farm that got breaks and getting the money to get a glamour would make him feel like being on thin ice with Bigby lending him a hand.

                              • Riiiiiight. But I don't care about that. You're making it sound like I have to convince him, and I don't. Either he does what I say, or he goes away. I can't make that any more clear. So if what you say is true, and Toad still doesn't get a glamour, that's fine. I'll have no problem sending him away at that point.

                                • The thing is you'll have to find him if he didn't get a glamour. Toad would not go to the Woodlands freely if he ain't glamoured after what you and Snow said. A little common sense can't hurt.

                                  • ..So I'll check in on him. I know where he lives. Your attempt at condescension has failed.

                                    • The thing is he knows you'll look at his apartment to get TJ to tell who dumped the body. Bigby also has the option to give the money to the witch Toad sees which I'm more inclined to do when not leading him the way. Toad can stay if he gets the glamour and a forcefully inclined outcome is better than an uncertain one.

                                      • Don't worry, I'll find him. Or I won't and he'll never be seen again. You're making up scenarios. That's why its a choice, you can be inclined to handle it however you like, and the same goes for me and every other player.

                            • Do you think he'll actually do it? Im dying to see what a glamoured Toad and TJ look like.

                              • I have a strong feeling it depends on the episode, can't say others have that feeling though. If you say Toad is going to the Farm and he has the money he'll get the glamour, if you tell him Colin is going to the Farm and give him money he'll want the glamour more than fixing his car, if you tell Toad that Colin is staying he most likely won't get a glamour.

                              • I hope so too. I've always pictured Toad as a pudgy, balding blonde with bright red cheeks. Words can't even express how adorable I imagine TJ would be.

    • IDK us New Yorkers (well NYC isn't, have not heard about it in Nassau or Suffolk County either) are not use to having pet pigs, plus I'm sure someone would scoop Colin up for dinner or to serve to customers.

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