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  • Halfway through wall of text and all I can say is DAMN. Good shit.

  • To add to the last dialouge of Nerissa in ep5. I'm pretty sure when she said she put Faith's head on Bigby's doorstep she also said "I walked Faith over here" or something along those lines. Maybe I misheard. Right when Nerissa started crying it just felt she was lying through her teeth from that moment on.

    -edit- Never mind Nerissa said: "I walked her over here" as in the head by itself I guess.

  • Faith and Nerissa can't have always been the same person. There are numerous pictures of the together and multiple third parties have referred to the two as separate people.

    In the next episode, we see Dee looking for Faith’s stolen picture at many places (though we don’t find out what he was looking for until episode three. We also see that Dee isn’t charging Faith money (a total anomaly). Why would he do a job for free for a supposedly dead girl?

    I think you're confused. The job Dee was working wasn't for Faith. It was about Faith. She stole a picture of Crane and Lilly together to gain "leverage." Dee was hired by Crane to get it back. Crane was his client, Crooked Man was his boss.

    When Georgie exclaims that Vivian is “the original” – the first one with the ribbon, he never actually says that Vivian cast the silence/beheading spell. In fact, it’s the opposite. He says she was the first one burdened with the problem (although she makes copies of the ribbon for her club).

    She may not have been the person to cast the original ribbon enchantment, but making copies of her ribbon means copying the enchantment that she had on hers. That's why all the magic on the other ribbon is tied to hers.

    The ring is never shown in the game, however, we don’t know what was in Faith’s purse the whole game.

    The ring was shown in game. Crane got it from Auntie Greenleaf, who said that the magic on it had worn off long ago.

    She Successfully deported Crane, who is her enemy, and what Nerissa says is an ally of the Crooked Man (obvious lie at this point). She killed/imprisoned The Crooked Man. She got rid of anyone who knew too much (Lily, Vivian, Georgie). She conned Fabletown in its entirety.

    Crane was a corrupt official and the Crooked Man was the man behind a criminal empire. Lily was killed by Georgie, Georgie was killed by Bigby, and Vivian took her own life. Even if she lied to Bigby, none of what "Faith" supposedly did was actually bad or at least criminal.

    • Dee was working a job for Faith. He was working the same job for Crane, but didn't actually do it for him, and charged him money, while Faith got his services for free.

      I looked at the ring and I thought that it was a different design. It could have been that ring though. The whole "Once upon a time" part of the translation somewhat suggests that it did lose its powers.

      We actually agree on the ribbon thing if you read it again.

      I am wondering if nobody will get the joke at the end about her being an ass because she is a donkey... No, none of what she did was criminal. In the end, it likely was for the best of Fabletown, but she did betray and just completely mindf*ck the whole town to get out of what (truly was) a bad situation.

      • Dee was working a job for Faith. He was working the same job for Crane, but didn't actually do it for him, and charged him money, while Faith got his services for free.

        What are you basing this off of? Or is it just speculation?

        • If you look in the brothers' file cabinets, the info is there. Click the first link in this thread and go to my old one. It has a video link with the footage somewhere.

          • You mean this?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTpkkyStOaA&t=262

            There was a file for Crane indicating that he hired Dum and Dee to "Find Comprimising Photo" and a file for Faith indicating that she "Stole a photo from Crane." Nothing there indicates that she hired them.

            • I see. Yeah I never interpreted it that way. I thought that she had hired them because it had been stolen again and that a dead girl couldn't go searching. And I raised this question in my last thread: How does she get the photo in the first place? She must have been close to Crane (I think she may have been his main "Snow White" -- see other thread). Yet, Beauty says she's never heard the name Faith, but she rattles off Tara, Brandy, Amber, Heather, and "Lily the Troll" very easily. Further, Beauty only remembers seeing snow once, but Crane seems to have "Snow days" at least a few times per week. So if she was in disguise in the lobby, then upstairs as Snow, well she must have had a lot of glamours to be working with. Not only that, but if all the twins have is a request from Crane, how do they know that she's the one who took it? If you think he knows, how does he know? That conflicts with them not being close. If they were close that conflicts with Faith not having an array of glamours. In any intrepration, Faith is much less than innocent here.

              Also just because multiple people have referred to them as separate that doesn't really matter a ton here. Remember, everyone in the cast is pretty much complicit with some crime or is being duped by it. And even if Vivian and Georgie at the end refer to them as "those two women", that assumes they haven't already been duped by Faith. Plus, Crooked Man doesn't even recognize Nerissa. Also (this isn't in the ending): Watch when you light their cigarettes. They both cutely say, "Thanks." and they ash their cigarettes with their index finger, while holding them between their ring finger and middle finger. Plus pictures don't mean much in this story. It wasn't snow was it? In that one picture in Lily's box, we don't even know if the third girl is Lily. She's never been seen in glamour, and if you go along with my "Kay" theory, that might not have been Faith.

  • I agree with everything, except the very last bit. She wasn't a complete ass, "she just did what she had to survive in an unfamiliar and unfair world". This is the last line in her book of fables' entry.

    She's a survivor and her weapon is her wits. She's a great character and it was a honor to play such vital role in her scheme, lol. :-D

    • That too was a double entendre. She's "ass-skin girl", so she's an ass...but not a dumb-ass. Far from it. She's a genius. As far as her being good or bad goes. I think her situation was the same as every other one of the Crooked Man's employees: She did what she had to do. Unlike the timid Johann the butcher, loudmouthed Jack, or the mean-spirited Georgie, Faith was an incredibly intelligent princess who really knew what it was like to be maltreated. She couldn't take CM's oppression anymore, and unlike the others, she had the means to get out. Means to an end I suppose.

    • she used her friends... and led them to their death. she's a terrible person.

      • Unless you think she somehow influenced the Crooked Man to call for her friends' deaths or helped Georgie kill them, she can't be blamed for their deaths. At most, all she did was switch places with one of them to avoid getting killed. Crooked Man's still the one who ordered the killings, Georgie's still the one who carried it out.

  • I thought the same thing about the mirror and created a thread about it. However, as someone pointed out, the mirror says the same thing when you ask about (dead) Lily.

  • While I agree that Faith is the at the end of the game, I disagree with some of the evidence.

    1) Kay is a character in the Fables comics.

    2) I think the room number 204 is a red herring. Woody's apartment would be marked as "Private Residence" like some of the entries, not just a room number.

    • 1) Good to know. In any case, Faith would still have an extra glamour (and she doesn't even need one), so somebody disposable could easily have been the head (Swineheart still doesn't let anyone see it). Now I know Kay isn't a dancer, but it doesn't change the fact there is a glamour formula just like Faith's -- not that she needs an extra (unless she's committing a crime)

      2) I disagree. I think it's made to be ambiguous on purpose, so her story could be pluripotent. So that either way -- on that night Faith/Nerissa would have had to have been either at the crime scene or Woody's. They didn't pick 204 arbitrarily by putting it in the book, giving you the key, and having toad write that letter.

      • Bigby's apartment number is also 204 if I recall correctly. Could be the designers again pointing people in some direction. I think I really like your theory. I liked it more before someone said that Dee wasn't working for Faith and you agreed. However, I myself thought that perhaps the head on the steps was some unnamed character but sort of dismissed it for the same reason I can't think of any reason why anyone would be glamoured as anyone else for no reason. They don't even glamour as the person they fill in for which seems like it would be the safest and easiest way to do it. For example, Woody was expecting Lily and when Lily didn't show Woody went nuts. He would have never gone nuts had Faith been glamoured as Lily. I then posited that maybe that was the reason Faith didn't glamour as Lily, because she wanted the Woodsman to freak and therefore Bigby might get involved. The photos in episode 5 I thought were photos of Snow (Lily), Faith and Nerissa. Then there's one of Faith and Nerissa in an argument. While you're correct in that people could be glamoured as others and that photos don't necessarily tell the truth in this game, (in fact at the end of episode 2 I was certain Ichabod wasn't Ichabod in the photo and assumed it was someone else glamoured to implicate him, It actually annoyed me that none of the characters ever even bring up the possibility or at least say "This COULD be Crane, but it might not be.) it seems a little unlikely that, while they were posting all these clues all throughout the game so something could be solved, they would put photos that only confuse the situation because theoretically the characters in them could be glamoured.

        • I actually never agreed with that. I just said I had not interpreted it like that before (the Dee/Faith/Crane contract). I actually think that is the case (if you see my other thread). I think some unnamed dancer got conned by Faith to switch nights while Faith said some lie like, my next client is expecting me and only me, so you have to look like me (Faith doesn't wear a glamour). It's probably a Tara, Brandy, Amber, or Heather.

  • Re: the other girls not wearing ribbons - they probably all do, 'discretion is our guarantee' and all that. Plus, in the queue outside the office at the end, you can see another girl still wearing a ribbon (http://youtu.be/nJRYWWkRSZ0?t=2m30s)

    • I don't think everyone does. When they are talking about the ribbons Vivian Says, "Every day I have to Look Gwen and Hans in the eye and pretend I don’t care…about what I’ve done to them [taken away their freedom]… I look at Nerissa and I hate myself." Hans doesn't have a ribbon, and he is at the queue in that clip. Maybe only the escorts have them, but BWCW is actually an ecort...yes, look at the appointmentbook photo. He's in the queue too. He doesn't have one. Even if they have them, we know glamours stay on until the tube is dis activated (Lily), so it doesn't hurt the Faith's head being not Faith argument.The fact that the girl didn't take hers off (and that Faith hersself doesn't) that raises questions actually. Like I said before, it is never said Vivian wanted the weapon/curse of wearing the ribbon herself and then being able to make copies. She may have been the original victim, capable of making more through her magic, but when did the origin of her ribbon come from? Why did that girl not take it off? Why didn't Faith? Especially when she casually recaps the whole experience as if she (as Nerissa) has transcended the whole trauma while talking to Bigby, but then says she wants to deal with it herself. Maybe she's telling the truth, or maybe she knows the spell is still in effect.

      • Oh, didn't see the BWCW there - good catch. Though I'm not sure if the ginger character model is meant to be BWCW - I know the early arguments about his involvement, but from how he pops up everywhere, including as 2 different people simultaneously in one scene, it looks more likely that he's just a general purpose character model.

        I'm actually in the 'it was Faith glamoured as Nerissa all along' camp, but I'm just not sure why you need to start arguing that not everyone of the P&P escorts wears ribbons - or that the ribbons are still active. What benefit does that serve in making sense of things?

      • Ok, on rereading your post I see why you need some exceptions to the ribbon-wearing - you're relying on a 'Kay' or some third party who doesn't wear a ribbon who can actually tell Woody a fake set of circumstances. But I'm not really sure why you need that either - what is the exact phrasing of what Woody says at the Trip Trap? If he's just giving his opinion, or doesn't sound sure, then can't he just be guessing that's how it happened?

        • THat's one of the possibilities as to how Woody knew what was going on. The dialogue is this:

          Woody: "I just want to tell her [Holly] what happened [to Lily]." Gren: "We know what happened." Woody: "Ok, how it happened, then"

          Woody must have been fed some falsified information by someone, and I think it was Nerssa/Faith, so that he would have some closure and not appear at the trial.

          So I don't NEED the ribbon theory; it's just one of actually three possibilities under which this theory of Faith setting everything up could have happened.

          1. Subverting the ribbon spell via the (real, not hte fake one Crane had) ring of dispel.
          2. The double (who I now think was just a disposable dancer Tara, Bandy, Amber, Heather) just didn't wear one. Why would that girl help Faith then? A. Faith tricked her by switching nights with her and told her Woody only gets a woody for me (Faith), so you've got to look exactly like me. B. Faith (if you run with the facet that she was closer to the Twins' than you think) could have threatened her with blackmail or worse.
          3. (I didn't even think of this before), Faith could have just been clever enough to subvert the spell herself, while still giving Woody information. She made it official: she put Nerissa's name in the book, at room 204, with a pseudonym from Woody. I actually like this explanation more than the ring one. It's doesn't rely on unfounded (though well-speculated) assumptions, and it goes along with what we see in the book and the letter.

          So, I suppose I don't NEED the ribbon explanations, but I wanted to lay them out on the table so that I could not have to reply to a ton of questions, although , the questions/small gaps in my theory have been really good questions and well pointed out.

          • Oh, that conversation, haha. That's about Woody screwing Lily, not the murders. We can infer it because when you get inside, Gren and Woody fight about Woody and Lily's relationship. If Woody's mind were on the method of murders, he would have brought it up again for Bigby, and he doesn't.

            • That is not the conversation to which I was referring. Everyone sees the one you are talking about, but if and only if, you wait to enter the bar in ep. 3 (right before the conversation you're talking about), does the player see that Woody knows (or thinks) he knows what happened.

              • Yes, I know. "I just want to tell her what happened." >> I want to explain to Holly what happened between me and Lily. "We know what happened." >> You slept with her, that's all we need to know to judge you. "Ok, how it happened, then." >> Point taken, but you weren't there, you just need to understand.

                If Woody really though he knew what had happened to Lily, how she was murdered, do you think he'd be so passive about it, give up so easily? No, he'd be a lot more passionate. As it is, he's pleading and tired, he doesn't think Gren and Holly will get why he was seeing Lily, and so he leaves.

                • Yes, those are the correct quotes. I didn't want to delve into this, but it is fairly obvious that Gren had a thing for Lily. "It's just a dead whore." "I'm gonna kill you!" "That funeral was a pretty shitty send off for a pretty ?okay? lady". Also, Gren charges that Woody was endangering Lily by sleeping with her (especially because it was for free sometimes). So when he says, "You slept with her!", he really means, "You slept with someone I care for, and you're the one who put her in danger."

                  Now, think about it if you were actually at that conversation. "We know what happened" That's an odd thing to say. If you were Gran you'd probably say "You already told me what happened!" "We know what happened" makes much more sense if he's saying, "We know how she died, and it was basically your fault".

                  As for Woody being more passionate, would he though? To whom would he turn? Bigby? From a pragmatic standpoint, that would ruin the whole game if we had that information.

                  From an in-game standpoint, he isn't exactly thrilled to see Bigby that night. Also, as you said, he's tired and probably even more upset when Bigby shows up, so he just wants to go about his business and leaves.

                  Also, what makes you think HE WASN'T so passionate about it? In the very next episode, he shows up to get his axe. Why? To kill Georgie. He's not the "let's get the gang together to find out the truth" type (like Snow is). He wants to get revenge on his own terms. So, he looks for Georgie, but can't find him because Georgie is at CM's lair. This explains why he is absent from the Trial. Besides Holly, nobody had a more personal interest in the murders, so why the hell would he not be there? Woody is not there because he's busy passionately looking for the killer, but to no avail.

                  • Eh, I think it was a pretty natural reply, actually. Gren's just saying, 'We know you fucked her and betrayed us, so shut up I don't want to hear you talking about Lily.' Gren wouldn't say 'You already told me what happened' because Woody hasn't explained his arrangement with Lily and Gren is never going to give him a chance to explain. In Gren's mind, Woody's committed the unforgivable.

                    And if Woody really loved her, he'd ruin the game for us to bring her justice, right then and there.

                    Anyways, I don't think you're interpreting it right, but what I think about it doesn't actually matter except as another viewpoint. Your interpretation of these lines is valid, so go for it.

                    • You're of course entitled to your own interpretation too, and I do enjoy debating with people who have good points.

                      At first, I thought that Georgie may not have killed the girls. (I think TTG may have changed it up after that post about how it was probably Vivian). I am presupposing that he actually did (believing what CM and Nerissa say), and trying to make the theory fit with that.

                      That said, I hate to say it, but I think you've just conceded a lot of my point in the above post.

                      Pragmatically, we both agree that he wouldn't have told all right then and there because it'd ruin the upcoming episodes.

                      Gren wouldn't say 'You already told me what happened' because Woody hasn't explained his arrangement with Lily and Gren is never going to give him a chance to explain. In Gren's mind, Woody's committed the unforgivable.

                      He actually just got done explaining his arrangement with Lily. "We know what happened." -- Gren. Even if you take it as just about the sex, he just got done telling Gren about it. He had just explained it to Gren at that point. There's no way to misinterpret that part. Gren simply doesn't want Holly to hear about it (whether you take it as just about the sex or that and the murders).

                      This is significant because, in this way, there is nobody at the trial to give a dissenting opinion to CM's testimony -- except for Nerissa (Faith), who shows up at the very end and turns the crowd against CM.

                      Here is essentially the case for Nerissa: Believe everything Nerissa says is true. This doesn't mean she told Bigby everything. As you said she could have glamoured herself to be Faith. Either way, it's simple and clean, and it isn't up against a multitude of possibly unwarranted assumptions. It's also boring. It's four and 3/4 episodes of speculation, and then you must believe what "Nerissa" says at the very end to be true. That's boring, and TTG doesn't do boring

                      Here is the case for Faith: Believe a giant conspiracy took place, many of its points are listed in my first post of this thread. Is it simple or clean? No. Is it convoluted and hard to prove. Yes, in fact it's impossible to PROVE (but so is Nerissa's case). Is it something TTG would do? Absolutely.

                      • I apologize, I don't think we're understanding each other very well! I'm in the Faith-Survives camp even though I'm making a case for Nerissa in the other thread. Still, I find everyone's ideas interesting and I'm trying to be fair with them all. I hope I'm doing alright with that.

                        "We know what happened." I don't think Gren has discussed things with Woody, he just knows based on what Holly found that the Woodsman was paying Lily for sex. And that's all he ever wants to know.

                        Pragmatically, TTG could have left Woody out of the bar scene if Woody had inside information, and even more pragmatically, not given him that information at all.

                        Ironically, I can't support the case for Nerissa because I find it too complicated and awkward. You have to rely on too many odd things for it to hold together. The case for Faith is comparatively straightforward, and I do find it clean. It is easy to support.

                        What I'm dealing with right now is incorporating all of the auxiliary (5 cent words blah) details into a Faith theory: the handwriting on all the notes, the calendars you posted, blood where it shouldn't be at the Open Arms and at Lawrence's house, Mary's photos, all that stuff. It's difficult.

                        • Okay I propose a detente here.

                          I think we both agree there is so much information in the game, and that it is on purpose. In this way, TTG can change the story or, like in this case, overwhelm us with data so that it makes the story ambiguous, mysterious, confusing, and fascinating. That's why we're still here. The last episode ended a week ago.

                          About which case is easier to support. Well we clearly disagree here. But I think I have an explanation about it, and I hope you might agree.

                          The notion that Faith is dead is much easier to believe throughout the whole game. Then, with the twist at the end, that notion is is very hard to believe. We know from the dramatic music, etc. that "Nerissa" had lied. So, at the end, Nerissa being the person to whom we spoke is very hard to support and find evidence for

                          The notion that Faith is alive (which I actually proposed after episode 3) is much harder to believe. throughout the whole game. Then, at the the notion that Faith alive is it is very easy to believe, but it is still extremely hard to support and find evidence for.

                          In short, both cases are very hard to support at the end.

                          Nerissa's case s hard to support because we basically know that we, along with Bigby have been duped; one would have to (pretty much wishfully think) that the ending just didn't happen the way it did.

                          Faith's case is hard to support because although we pretty much know we've been duped, one has got to go throughout the entire game, and make all the esoteric tidbits of evidence work in order to justify the case that was so hard to believe throughout the whole game. I've tried to do that here, and I hope I've done a good job.

                          • Sounds good to me. :)

                            • Perfect :)

                              The fact is: you're right -- there is so much information in this game. That's why I never arrogantly say I have proved anything.

                              Anyone who says they've proved or solved the case should correct themselves, and if they don't they should be out of the discussion.

                              In law, you've got to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" to convict someone.

                              In The Wolf Among Us, a fable world where anything could be anything, that reasonable doubt is omnipresent. That reasonable doubt, compounded with the style, concept, characters, and everything else is the reason we're still here!

  • Dee doesn't reject it Faith's coat Jack does.

  • But what about the head at the doorstep it had bruise's like faiths in episode 1?

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