97 Comments
  • So my choice will not be based upon an emotional bias of liking/disliking Kenny/Jane over the other.

    Uh, yeah no. You are clearly a Kenny fan, my friend. If you really wanted this to have no bias you wouldn't have sided with one or the other at all in this post, but you couldn't even wait to defend Kenny before you got to the end of your post. I noticed also how you took into account all the dialogue that Kenny said after the fight, but none of the dialogue that Jane said. This isn't an analysis; it's a defense of Kenny's actions in the fight. When considering Kenny's dialogue when you're at the car, you're mostly looking at Kenny's explanation of what Jane did, not an unbiased explanation of what Jane did.

    Update: Thank you for including Jane's dialogue. However you're still not being unbiased as you're not looking at it from Jane's perspective. You interpret her lines always assuming the worst from her, and that's not fair. See my post below.

    • If you actually read my analysis, i never once sided with Kenny because he was a likable character nor that I disliked Jane's character. In fact, I liked them both and saw them both as redeemable. I really wished I could have saved them both. I judged my decision solely on Kenny's and Jane's actions and motivations and went on to Kenny's justification in order to reinforce what i had already suspected about the fight. And yes, I did see Jane's justification and it wasn't substantive enough to include it because she didn't say anything new that i hadn't already covered in my analysis.

      However, in order to be more fair, I'll include Jane's dialogue and my thoughts about it later on tonight. For now I got to sleep. Thanks for your comment :)

    • I just updated my analysis. It now contains Jane's dialogue after the fight and my thoughts on them.

      • Ok. I've been meaning to respond for a while; will get around to it a little later after reading your updates. And for the record I read everything in a thread and OP before commenting (including your post.)

      • Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane here because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:

        1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:

        Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.

        Jane: Clem...help!

        No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her. After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now remember Jane is a survivor. It makes no sense for her to not confess about AJ if she's on the brink of death, stabbed once already close to her heart, even if she thinks Kenny won't believe her. Confessing would've prompted Clem to help her, no doubt. Why would Jane give up so easily to die and leave Clem alone with Kenny? (The whole reason she's fighting is to not leave Clem alone with Kenny!) It makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is she's numb with terror and about to die and just not thinking straight. But living in the ZA, Jane must be on the verge of death all the time. Everybody is. Imo it was the writers just making her stupid/scared on purpose so that Clem won't automatically try to save Jane, and so the pizza/ice cream choice would be preserved. Anyway whether or not it's bad writing, this detail is important.

        2) Jane didn't want to kill Kenny until later. I maintain that she didn't know Kenny would try to kill her; I know you say differently but let me explain.

        I do realize that when Kenny says near the end, "I'll kill you!" Jane says, "I knew you would!" Supposedly from this statement she knew that Kenny would kill her from the start. But I don't think she knew for sure that he would kill her.

        Jane didn't "very well" know that this would happen. Jane didn't intend to kill Kenny or have him dead at first, like you said. At one point, she says, "Just go," to him (dialogue from the silent playthrough which you've also excluded I've noticed, though it was probably just an oversight. It looks like you did take most dialogue into account though.) That interaction goes like this, when they first step outside:

        Jane: Just go.

        Kenny: I ain’t goin’ nowhere.

        Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.]

        She didn't know Kenny would kill her for sure; she gave him the chance to leave and not hurt anyone. It's pretty clear to me from the dialogue above that Jane has made the decision to end Kenny when, and only when, he has decided not to leave, though she wasn't planning on killing him before. It is also at this point that Jane probably knows that Kenny would try to kill her as she would try to kill him. If Clem goes between them, we don't hear this interaction above, but we can assume it when Kenny doesn't leave and after Kenny says, "You’re fuckin’ DEAD!" (He says this right before Jane gets him in the stomach, though you may have to wait for him to say it) indicating Kenny plans to kill Jane before Jane ever verbally indicated she would kill him. Some time after he threatens to kill her, Jane says, "It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery." She only says this quote after Kenny indicates he's not leaving.

        I think shooting Kenny is very akin to the Carol/Lizzie scene from the show. (Spoilers for the tv show; I know OP has watched the show though bc I read your entire post.) The basics are that a dangerous mentally-disturbed person has to leave the group because of their dangerous actions. Since there are no mental hospitals or therapy available in TWD universe, there are only so many options to carry this out. Lizzie, a child, killed her sister and was ready to welcome her back as a walker. After much debate Carol knew the best course of action was to kill Lizzie, because the girl wasn't safe to be around other people. Similarly, Kenny was on the verge of committing murder if you shot him. As indicated in 1), he had stabbed the knife into Jane's chest once before finally killing her, so we know that he was going to kill Jane, even without hindsight. In this case, we're stopping Kenny before he does commit murder.

        3) You language is unnecessarily pro-Kenny for being "unbiased."

        It is true that Kenny has increasingly become violent and irrationally stubborn, but again this whole situation is still Jane's fault, as she manipulates Kenny into losing control of his senses over AJ's supposed death.

        Yes Jane does manipulate the situation, and she certainly instigated it. But to say the "whole situation is still Jane's fault" is I think a bit extreme.

        You keep saying Kenny was manipulated into killing Jane. Sure he was. But a manipulated person still shouldn't have to commit murder. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're crazy, or if you've been pushed to your limits. I don't even care if you're Lee. Even if you're a parent whose child has been killed, MURDER is still NOT justified, especially if you have no evidence. You may feel like you need to kill someone who might've killed your kid, but you don't act on it in a violent manner. EXECUTION on the other hand after evidence has been gathered is different.

        Kenny did have to be executed because he was going to commit murder; the evidence was right in front of us. He had already stabbed Jane once as stated in 1) and was going to do it again. He had proven himself to be dangerous.

        You also say about shooting Kenny, "Essentially, it's not based on practical concerns, but rather irrational theoretical concerns." You're arguing here about "theoretical concerns." But this situation wasn't theoretical although it was staged. Kenny did irrationally try to kill Jane even when she said it was an accident.

        If Clem had not have had such a close relationship with AJ, Jane would not have cared at all about the baby, especially since she kept referring to AJ as "it".

        You don't know that Jane would never care for AJ. She was worried that Clem was getting attached to the baby, because let's face it, it's not gonna be easy to keep him alive, and if he dies, it's gonna hit Clem harder the more attached she is to him. That's Jane's philosophy in a nutshell: don't get attached to people because once you lose them, there's too much pain. That may be why Jane herself tried not to get attached to AJ and referred to him as "it." It's true that Jane would probably have never willingly gotten into a situation where she'd have to care for a baby, but she's not so heartless to not care for it. She suggests they go back to Howe's for the baby formula, remember? Sure it was probably also the best shelter she could think of, but logically speaking Jane was right. If Kenny and Clem had tried to find Wellington through trial and error, it might've taken them a lot longer to find compared to Howe's, but they were just lucky. cough bad writing cough Also they were more sure Howe's had baby formula than Wellington (they weren't even sure at that point if Wellington even existed.)

        The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws.

        This is not an argument. Kenny and Jane aren't the same person so they won't have the same actions in the same scenario.

        While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him

        Uhh... "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north."

        “Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?” He said it himself, ladies and gentlemen. You have to kill Kenny if you disagree with him. And he wasn’t exaggerating. You know, next I could say that Jane had no choice at this point but to formulate some plan to leave Kenny with Clem. But you know what? The next thing Jane says is, "Whatever, I give up.” Implying that she’d go along with Kenny just to keep him calm. Yes, this could’ve been a lie. But at this point she’s not escalating the fight.

        • I'm really suprised no one replied to this post yet. I usually try to stay out of this Kenny vs Jane thing, but there's one of the best explanation of Jane's actions/Jane defence masterpost I've seen, and I've seen many.

        • Thank you for your comment :)

          As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun. That detail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight. As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside. She even proclaims her intention to kill Kenny when Clem asks Jane to "back off" by saying "No, Clem. It’s time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery". By making her intention to kill Kenny she made it clear that she WASN’T going to tell the truth about AJ as the fight had now become a fight to the death. For Jane to tell the truth at the "verge of death" would make no difference as all reasoning had now been left to the wayside. Both Jane and Kenny knew that when they were already at each other’s throats. You must also remember that the TWD game series is a game with limits and is confined to the parameters of the story. It can’t give us every possible choice that a person could make in this situation. Since it only gives us two choices, we can only deal with what has been presented to us. It’s pointless to start debating over hypothetical choices or over what the writer should have done.

          As for your second point that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her. I maintain that you are wrong. She did know that Kenny would try to kill her. Again it all goes back to Jane’s intention to kill him. The reason why I did not include that dialogue was not because it was an oversight, but rather because I did not see it as relevant enough to mention it. But since you brought it up, it’s clear that the reason why Jane gave Kenny the chance to leave was not because she didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her, but because she had made it clear that she intended to kill Kenny if he did not leave. Why else would Jane so eagerly slash Kenny’s stomach (a fatal wound if Kenny was any closer to the knife) and then chase after him outside screaming bloody murder (THIS IS ALL YOUR F—ING FAULT) if not to try and kill him. When she had abandoned her original plan to let Clem decide to leave Kenny, she made up her mind to force Kenny to leave because if he didn’t then she would attempt to kill him. This is why Jane warned Kenny to leave, otherwise she would fight him to the death.

          And no, the Kenny/Jane situation is not like the Carol/Lizzie situation. Lizzie was a mentally ill kid. And no matter how many times she was corrected, she never once recanted her delusions (ie. That walkers were people too) nor felt any regret over killing her little sister (which she committed in order to prove her delusions). Kenny on the other hand was not mentally ill. Whenever he made mistakes, he owned up to it, apologized and regretted his decisions, and realized he was being a jerk and overly violent. Like I said in my analysis, "Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy". Lizzie was an insane, mentally damaged girl. Kenny was not, he was merely suffering from the loss of his family and Sarita (this however does not justify his violent and abusive behavior, which he confessed to Clem that that was his issue)

          As for your charge that I’m Pro-Kenny, You make the wild assumption that by me siding with Kenny I somehow agree that Kenny should have murdered Jane. NOWHERE do I ever say that Kenny was justified in murdering Jane. I’ll say emphatically KENNY IS A MURDERER for killing Jane, plain and simple. What you don’t seem to realize is that my argument never had to do with whether Kenny was justified in killing Jane. My argument had to do with Clementine and what SHE should have morally done in this situation. And the moral thing to do is to not get involved because if Clem had shot Kenny, she would have been the unknowing murderer of Kenny due to Jane’s deception. If Jane’s scheme was merely to show Kenny’s violent side and then reveal the truth about AJ and that Kenny still wouldn’t believe her, but instead attempt to murder her, then Clem is morally obligated to kill Kenny. But that is not the case. Jane had changed her plans into trying to MURDER Kenny. It would have been morally reprehensible for Clem to unknowingly be the tool in killing Kenny over Jane’s inability to do it herself because of her own deception.

          As for the "theoretical concerns". What I was referring to was that those who chose to shoot Kenny did so because of the irrational fear that Kenny will lose his mind down the road and put Clem in danger. Simply because Jane forced that situation to happen through her deception does not validate that concern, as no one can know for sure whether Kenny would or would not lose his mind. As we have seen in this episode, Kenny was not a psychotic person, he knew he was screwing up and he promised to be better. A psychotic person would never admit that he has a problem.

          As for Jane caring about AJ. Yes, I agree with you that down the road Jane would EVENTUALLY come to care for AJ. But my point still stands that during episode 5 she did not care for AJ because of her survivalist mindset and only made strides to care for AJ just for Clem’s sake and not her own because Clem was getting attached to AJ. Jane does show that she can change, I don’t deny that. But her personality has consistently stayed the same throughout episode 4 and 5, with Clem being her hope in changing (or else Clem becomes like her in the end in certain playthroughs)

          As for my claim that "The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws." My argument was never about Kenny and Jane being the same person nor that they should have done the same thing in this scenario, it was about Jane not being justified in plotting against Kenny simply because his flaws. In the same way, no one is justified in plotting to kill another simply because of their flaws.

          As for Kenny saying "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north." You do realize that the matter of where to go was not settled by Kenny. In fact, the whole group decided to deliberate about that in the morning. Of course that never happened because Mike and Bonnie back stabbed the group by abandoning them and taking everything they had. Mike had previously asked us to “talk some sense” into Kenny, to which Clem and Kenny had decided to try and CONVINCE the group to go North in the morning. But Clem and Kenny never got the opportunity to do so. Hence, Kenny did not force anyone to go north.

          As for Kenny saying, "Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?" Remember that the reason why they are in the truck in the first place was because Mike and Bonnie had abandoned the group and took all their stuff and at the same time Clem was injured by Arvo. Therefore, Kenny and Jane needed to leave Arvo’s place immediately (there was nothing left there) and keep Clem warm with the truck’s heater. There was no time to discuss where to go until Clem had woken up. But we all know what happened next. Doesn’t matter who started the verbal spat, both began berating the other. Nonetheless, there was nothing keeping Jane from leaving Kenny, other than her affection for Clem. Thus, Kenny still did not force anyone to go with him up north. Jane chose to stay for Clem’s sake, despite her claim that she wanted to get out of the truck in order to avoid verbally fighting with Kenny.

          • Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have the time at all right now to respond as extensively as I'd like to, and tomorrow I'm going away until Sept 16th. -_- I still disagree with some of your points, but I'll just have to respond later. I will say though that it would help to look closer at the chronology of the dialogue and their actions, and who responds to what was said etc. in what order. I wrote up a script of what was said/what actions were taken, but in the interest of not making this thread too much longer than it is (too late lol) I won't post it, unless you'd like me to.

            Also I'll repeat that I am mad at Jane. I can't stand her for making Clem a murderer for such a stupid reason.

        • I just can't agree with the notion that Jane was in anyway justified or not a complete psycho. I'm sorry but what she did was wrong and truly horrific.

          I shot kenny. Now I shot kenny because at that point I didn't know what else to do. In the moment I felt it was entirely possible that she was attacked by walkers and had no choice but to abandon the baby, and kenny killing her was just not right.

          When I picked the gun up I wasn't thinking in terms of playing favorites I always tried to play with a righteous mind set. At that moment I was pissed off about the baby right along side of kenny, but I dont feel it was justification to kill her.

          Now here's the part that blows my mind, with people siding with jane. When I found out that she lied about the baby and ended up causing me to kill someone who had always protected me, and reguardless of his aggression was ALWAYS acting on behalf of keeping the group safe. Sure there was several times when his actions caused the group trouble and towards the end wound up prying the group apart, but at the end of the day his heart was always in the right place, he did what he thought was right, he tried to be a good person. I mean right off the bat he didn't trust jane, but he and jane left. TOGETHER.

          I liked jane, but in hind sight maybe I think my liking jane may have stemmed out of me wishing molly had came back. We never experienced much with jane, but in the few situations we did we got to see her true colors. In the trailer she was more then willing to leave sarah to die. when we first see arvo I didnt trust him either, but she handled the situation like a crazy thieving scum bag, infact it was this situation that I started to actually not trust her, not just trust her judgement, but someone who acts like that to a stranger without making even the slightest effort to figure out who they are or what they are about, well... Its the kind of thing that is a true sign of evil in its baby steps. Now when the situation arouse where she had to save sarah, if not for clem demanding it, she again would have just left her for dead.

          When jane came back, I was happy. I didn't look at her negatively when she left even though at that point I had really lost alot of trust for her and her return sort of renewed that trust and made me think that she wasn't necessarily a bad person and that it was possible for her to work out her trust issues.

          Like I said, I shot kenny, but for anyone in anyway attempt to side with jane after learning what she did is just disgusting. She proved who she was when she did that, a crazy scum bag who's lack of trust drives her to let innocent people suffer for her own selfish gain.

          Jane is scum. Whether you killed kenny or not, and if you stay silent and dont forgive jane you still go with her, so if you leave with jane even then I can say its a justified action as surviving alone with a baby seems dangerous, but to anyone who in anyway attempts to justify janes actions or side with jane on what happened I have no respect for your moral judgements what so ever. What Jane did was horrible and unforgivable in every way, kenny did not deserve to die.

    • I have to agree. I liked your analysis on Jane, but you were blatantly favoring Kenny by not calling him out on his irrational behavior. Kenny is still responsible for murdering Jane (if it goes that far) plus many other events leading up to (and in) this episode. The reality is that both are in the wrong, are dangerous, and should be avoided. You can't justify Kenny's actions by Jane's wrongdoings. Kenny has been unstable all throughout season 2 and arguably, season 1.

      • I actually did call Kenny out on his irrational behavior. He had lost his senses, was not willing to hear Jane out when Clem requested that of him, and became overwhelmed by thoughts of AJ's death at the hands of Jane. But again, Kenny's irrational behavior is exactly what Jane wanted to happen as she had schemed to do from the beginning in order to get Kenny out of the picture. Both Kenny and Jane were in the wrong, no doubt. But again, when it comes to Clementine, was it morally right for her to get involved and kill Kenny, knowing full well that this was Jane's own deception? The responsibility and guilt must lay on those who are involved, and that is Kenny and Jane, not Clementine.

    1. Kenny's a grown mature man, he has to control his emotions. No matter what one endures, one has control over one's attitude and emotion. Kenny is unstable.
    2. Your point about his treatment of Clementine is valid. His treatment of others is pretty shitty and disrespectful. Jane has proven she has been looking out for Clem survival skills wise and maybe felt a bond with her. In that sense, She views Kenny's attitude and treatment of others as a negative which could end up with on the receiving end. As I said in another post, women notice things like Kenny's actions and they see fear and its not wrong ifgroup.... felt that.
    3. Its probably not the smartest thing in the world to do, but her theory was right. Kenny went off the deep end. Even if she could say anything, the tension between them was heightened enough that Jane could not say anything about the baby.
    4. He attacked a woman just before his life was in danger.
    5. Throughout the last episode its obvious Jane tried to make strides to fit in the group.
    6. Its not like Kenny's actions, decisions and rationale were never questioned before by others and rightly so.

    I'm sorry if Jane's plan was not executed and thought out better, but I do think she's justified with her concern over Kenny and how he'll be around Clem. That alone I understand.

    • ANOTHER FUCKING JANE LOVER. SHE ISN'T REAL, YOU FUCKING DOMINATRIX-FETISH LOVING ASSHOLE. SHE'S A VIDEO GAME CHARACTER. SHE WON'T GIVE YOU PUSSY FR SIDING WITH HER.

    • How? How is it justified?

      Not thought out properly? I mean I understand its the zombie apocalypse but what she did in that single action was more fucked up and unjustified then all of the bad choices kenny has ever made combine.

      Kenny was an asshole yes, but he has always acted in the interest of keep the group safe. Even ben who fucked things up at every turn, kenny sacrificed himself to try and save him. I keep hearing this arguement that he cant cant be trusted, but name one person in the group through out the entire series that kenny attacked, name one time kenny knowingly did something that would harm the group. Kenny might have been rude and an asshole but his heart was always in the best interest of the group.

      Jane is a piece of shit. End of story. I'm baffled by how there is even a debate over it.

      Okay here's an idea, write down all the situations in which Kenny has sacrificed himself for the well being of the group, then write down all the times kenny attacked someone who didn't first do something to him or the group. Then do the same for Jane. Compare.

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    ErenCoral BANNED

    Dude All Kenny ever does is making problems, he caused the group to break up which led to Arvo shooting Clem which could've been FATAL. Luke was super glue that keeps the group together and Kenny is just the hot water that washes all the glue away. Jane is a guardian angel that watches out for the group and for Clem. You Kenny fans are so blinded by the fact that Kenny is a dumb hypocrite blinded man who thinks he knows everything wtf kenny Im glad I shot you.

    • Arvo shot Clem because he hated her for shooting his sister (which he never saw turning, so he thought that Clem shot her while she was still alive.)

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        ErenCoral BANNED

        Maybe they would've gotten a chance to tell him his sisters dead if Kenny would stop beating him up. Also Kenny is the reason why Mike and Bonnie ran away so if they didn't run away, Arvo wouldnt have a gun and he wouldnt have shot Clem.

  • The whole fight itself was unrealistic.

    Kenny has got to be around 165lbs-200lbs. And he's shown himself to be a strong guy. He helped lift a door off of Lee, who was pinned underneath; back at the drugstore, a door that had at least 2 walkers on top of it, back in Season 1/Episode 3. He busted open that armoury door; that was locked up tight, back at Crawford. And he pinned Mike against a wall back at Carver's. Mike couldn't even move!

    Jane was maybe only 125lbs at best. And though she may have been strong in her own right, just by size alone, she was no match for Kenny.

    What really made me hate Jane, was how she berated and antagonized Kenny in the truck. Questioning him as a husband and father; saying that he terrorized his late family. Criticizing him for being unable to protect Sarita, and what not. And saying even Clementine thought Kenny was a monster. That was so out of line!

    She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't get to see the kind of husband/father he was. Nor how he would do anything to protect his family and friends. All she got see was a poor man who was in a deep state of grief after losing almost everyone he cared for, and who was probably suffering from post-traumatic-stress-disorder as a result.

      • Thanks. When Jane knocked Kenny to the ground, when he pinned her against the wall, I thought to myself: "Oh please! Give me a break, she couldn't do that, not with her size. She'd have to be Mike's size at least to be able to do that."

        And the fact that Kenny got his belly slashed open, and didn't need to be medical attention afterward, like he did with his eye, that was also like: "Oh c'mon."

        • Or Kenny being a pretty damn good shot with his one eye.

          Injuries in The Walking Dead tend to be there for cosmetic effect. It's why Clementine's doing fine despite not getting any medical treatment for being shot.

          • Good point. I guess there's only so much realism that can be incorporated into a videogame. Still, I think there are some areas that telltale could've improved on. Like for example, back at the drugstore Lee had a rifle, and yet when he's shown looking for a way up on top of the trailer, he doesn't have it. Why not just show him hanging it over his shoulder by a shoulder strap?

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      ErenCoral BANNED

      She popped both of his eyes, he should be blind now. Plus she slashed his belly, his intestine and stomach should fall out of his belly. I'm pretty sure Jane should've won.

      Kenny started with his bullshit " Kenny: Your just some fucking loner who cares about no one but herself, nobody cares about you. " " Jane: Stop the car im leaving " " Kenny: Oooh so your running from your problems again. "

      Kenny didn't get to see Jane before they met her. She dragged her sister across 4 states. She cared about her sister more than anyone. All he got to see was her being alone and trying to not to get attached to anyone because she doesn't want to lose another loved person.

    • You do realise Jane said that after Kenny insulted her and called her 'Nothin and that she doesn't care for anyone and only for herself. She was provoked.

      • The argument started when Kenny said he couldn't see the damned road (cuz her foot was on the dash) and Jane said I bet there's alot you can't/don't see. That's when the you're nothing and you care about no one but yourself stuff started. And then like a minute later she tells Kenny to pull over so she can get out...thus proving what she cared for.

        • You're joking right? Who pulled Clem out of the ice? Who saved Kenny during the firefight? She even said at the start of the episode Clem is 90% of the reason she came back.

          So it's a bit silly to say she doesn't care about Clementine. And like I said in the previous comment, KENNY made it personal first.

          • My Clem didn't fall through the ice! It doesn't have to happen in everyone's story. I didn't say she never cared but giving up and running away was her MO up until then. and like I said she proves that by saying she wants to get out. I never said who was right just saying how the fight started.

            Why does everyone assume someone is saying they are wrong. Just helping you with how the fight started since you said Kenny was the one being a dick first...Not true no matter how much you want it to be. Kenny was crazy, Jane acted like she was also crazy/losing it like Clems says. By the end Clem has lost a bit of her sanity after having watched one of them die so horribly.

    • She was right, though. It didn't make sense because she didn't know Sarita at all, but she saw Kenny at his worst and that entailed screaming at Clementine, shocking Sarita with his savagery and then failing to put her out of her misery, and then flipping out on an unarmed cripple despite being repeatedly admonished for it.

      Kenny becomes a lot more growly and brutal after Carver's beatdown, and I think the implication is that he must've got a little brain damage from that. Controlling his impulses becomes nigh-impossible for him, even if he was subconsciously aware that he'd done something wrong.

  • I wish we could just skip all this and just get to season 3 to answer everyones questions so we can move on from all this debate :)

  • That was one big thing that always stood out for me, that always confused me about Jane's actions at the end. It was her possessiveness with Clementine that she felt she had to manipulate her to that level, even if it meant killing someone, never mind killing a friend. I know Jane's side of the argument was that Jane didn't think it would get that bad, and that she underestimated Kenny...but I also noticed that if Clem picks up the gun, Jane does indeed ask for help. (Can't fault her for this since a knife in the chest is quite lethal, but it does blow the "Jane didn't try to trick Clem into killing Kenny theory" out of the water, since she asked her to "just stay out of it")

    Honestly after reading this, I feel kinda bad for Jane now when I told her off. She wanted something better then what she had with her sister Jaime and it makes total sense that she was willing to do everything possible to achieve this. In contrast to Kenny who despite his brutal and unstable behavior would rather give Clem and AJ up if it meant they were safe, even from himself.

    I guess Luke was right in the end....nothing more important then "family" even in the ZA.

  • She got what she deserved isn't exactly morally objective. Its ok to kill as long as you are killing the person that induced you to it?

    There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so. -- William Shakespeare

    • It's not about whether Jane deserved to die or not. That was never the point. Kenny didn't deserve to die, just as much as Jane didn't deserve to die. Nonetheless, Jane and Jane alone should face up to the consequences of her own actions. Knowing full well that this was all Jane's scheme against Kenny, It would have been morally wrong to force Clem to to kill Kenny for the sake of Jane's own selfish desire to have Clem to herself. The guilt of murder should be on Kenny's head, not on Clementine, as she was completely innocent of the fight between Kenny and Jane.

      • It wouldn't be murder, if its done to save another it would be justifiable homicide. She doesn't look guilt ridden in either scenario really.

        • I would agree with you, if Jane had truly lost AJ and was not scheming against Kenny. Only then would I see it as morally necessary to interfere and shoot Kenny. But because the limits of the game and the parameters of the story, it gives us only two options, and therefore, I must side with letting Kenny kill Jane out of moral necessity, even though she doesn't deserve it. It's why my Clem was so angry at Kenny for what he did.

  • A very well-made analysis, good read.

  • Ok let put end of this, you did great. I'm not saying that Janne or Kenny are better both made ​​mistakes

     

    Frist to know

     

    Kenny: http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Kenny_(Video_Game)

    Kenny is great and loyal guy he kill Larry lost family and "boat" after being beaten and lost an eye he enraged, then misfortune strikes again and hes lovely Sarita dies, now we have lost point for Kenny... but on the other hand he have Clemetine so no reason to get alarmed. After the birth of AJ, Kenny see him as his own child that become an obsesion...

    Let say Kenny is NOT become insane and is just semi-rational.

     

    Janne: http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Jane_(Video_Game)

    We don't know much aboute she... the backstory that we know is Janne had sister and, was "stupid" as a kid and selfish is as adult... she see Clementine as a sister, taught her how to survive.

    Janne is rational.

    Janne may did love with Troy/Luke... R.I.P. Troy

     

    Yeah... I love Kenny, I shot Kenny and I din't let him kill Janne and I forgive Janne.

    So let's use our imagination:

     

    1. So if Luke survived and walker get AJ.. and he come back insted Janne will you kill Kenny?
    2. If you(Clemetine) didn't save baby and you say to Kenny "He's..." just imagine Kenny then...
    • She never cared about Troy, seeing as she castrated him. But it did seem like she grew a little attached to Luke as well as Clem...

      • "Other than that, it is implied that possibly she, and Troy had made an agreement that the two would help each other to escape from the 'pen' of the community, through some sexual deals that she offered."

        • yeah i agree,some people say troy raped her and it doesn't make sense.

        • According to some folks, there were sound files that made it more explicit that Troy was being sexually aggressive towards her. I don't know why that was cut out as it made a lot of people think that Jane was just a castrating bitch, even though it's made abundantly clear by how he abuses two underage girls that he's probably not as suave with the ladies as Luke would be.

    • Forgive me if I didn't understand you very well. Your English isn't fluent enough.

      Your hypotheticals don't really help your case that Jane didn't have to die, since none of your hypotheticals include the premeditated scheme against Kenny nor Jane's uncaring attitude toward AJ. In fact, it's because of these two things alone that Kenny had lost his senses and killed Jane.

      So with your first hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Luke in the first place, since Kenny knows that Luke cared about Rebecca and the baby. But let's just theorize that Luke schemed against Kenny to provoke him into a fight. My conscious would still morally obligate me to not get involved, and therefore, let Kenny kill Luke, since this was Luke's own doing and Clem will not take part in the scheme to unknowingly murder Kenny. (And Luke is my favorite character).

      As for your second hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Clementine either, since he knows that Clem loves AJ just as much as he does.

      • tell me the part you don't understand...

         

        if you let Kenny kill Luke you are scumbag...

        and yeah maybe he won't attack Clemetine...

        but still after Janne put back knife all got clear... I almost let Kenny kill someone again event him say :))

        Kenny "Clem.. You made the right choice..."

        • The first hythetical you gave me, I already answered, Kenny wouldn't kill Luke.

          Kenny knew very well he was in the wrong in trying to murder Jane and that's why he said that Clementine made the right decision in shooting him, which I would have agreed with him had it not been for the fact that Jane schemed against Kenny in the first place and lied about AJ in order to make him lose his mind.

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