316 Comments
  • She never says she wants to put Kenny out of his misery...

    • She does though. She says it outside. If you get in her way instead of just talking to her, she says this instead:

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      No matter what option you do in that scene, she tries to kill Kenny when he isn't even fighting her at that point. He had disengaged after Jane had personally escalated the fight by pulling a knife on him and slashing his stomach. He retreated out of the building after than and Jane ran after him. She could have stopped the fight right there if she wanted to. She preferred to try and kill him though.

      • Where is "it's time to put this crusty old piece of shit out of his misery"?

        Also, Kenny does the same if you try to tell HIM not to.

        • Where is "it's time to put this crusty old piece of shit out of his misery"?

          Its a dialogue option when you first go outside. I think you have to ask her to back off.

          Also, Kenny does the same if you try to tell HIM not to.

          I'm not talking about tossing Clem out of the way. I'm only talking about the intentions that Jane shows there. She threw Clem out of the way so she could try and kill Kenny. If you grab Kenny, he just tosses you out of the way and prepares to defend himself as Jane comes at him with the knife.

          • Jane doesn't back down, but Kenny doesn't either.

            • Not sure why you're trying to make this about Kenny, but yes Kenny does back down. He ran away when Jane slashed him inside the building. She could have ended the fight there if she wanted to.

              • She tried to end it there. She told him to "Just go." He responds with "I ain't goin' nowhere."

                • So that means she should proceed to try and kill him? Just because scaring him away didn't work doesn't mean she could not have simply told him that the baby was alive, he had failed his test, ect.

                  Realistically do you think she would actually expect Kenny to be like: "Oh, sure Jane, no problem.. I'll just be going now." She put little to no real effort in trying to stop the fight there.

                  • So just because Jane lashed out on Kenny means that Kenny should proceed to kill her? Just because she wasn't a coward and didn't back down and could've been killed if she did, doesn't mean he could've stopped to let her explain.

                    Realistically, do you expect people to lash out on someone just because they implied something but there was no evidence to prove their lie?

                    • So just because Jane lashed out on Kenny means that Kenny should proceed to kill her? Just because she wasn't a coward and didn't back down and could've been killed if she did, doesn't mean he could've stopped to let her explain.

                      This really has little to do with what we were talking about. Why do you keep trying to turn this on Kenny instead of addressing what Jane was trying to do? Do you admit that Jane was out for blood/ trying to kill Kenny?

                      Realistically, do you expect people to lash out on someone just because they implied something but there was no evidence to prove their lie?

                      If that person is in a rage because of someone thinking someone murdered their baby? That would hardly be unexpected. That could happen to anyone. Especially when Jane did nothing to try and rationalize with Kenny. Giving a ridiculously contrived excuse such as "it was an accident" is not going to work in any situation at all. No parent/guardian/protector is going to buy that. It made her look more guilty than otherwise.

                      • Kenny was irrational too, you do realize that it's not that difficult to lose a baby in a blizzard with allot of snow at sub-zero temperature.

                      • Where is ACTUAL evidence that Jane was originally going to kill Kenny? Many plans are devised because of failed outcomes, Jane probably knew that it was going to be her or Kenny, also, why can't I bring Kenny into this? Kenny's acts are what triggered Jane's.

                        Jane couldn't try to rationalize with Kenny, he automatically accused her of killing AJ, he gave her no time for explanation whatsoever. Saying it was an accident isn't going to work in any situation at all? Let me recount the times individuals have said such and it worked out in a situation.

                        • you do realize that it's not that difficult to lose a baby in a blizzard with allot of snow at sub-zero temperature [...] Where is ACTUAL evidence that Jane was originally going to kill Kenny?

                          You do realise that Jane wants to abandon Kenny in this very same "blizzard with allot of snow at sub-zero temperature" without any supplies and pretty much nowhere to go. It is a death sentence. So I would cite this as first evidence that she is at least willing to get Kenny killed. Then her plan is to enrage Kenny to supposedly show his true colours. But what did Jane expect to be the outcome of her plan? She knowingly makes it, so that Kenny would believe that she got AJ killed. Did she expect that Kenny would leave Clementine with a Babykiller? No, Jane is too calculating for that. She wants Kenny dead, so she deceives him and lures him into attacking her, so that she could put all the blame on him. Do you want further evidence for that? When they struggle, Kenny shouts "I'll fuckin kill you", to which Jane responds "I knew you would".

                          So when Jane enters the building, she wants to kill Kenny. At that point Kenny asks her if she is okay.

                          • Well of course, Jane was right about what Kenny would try to do to her, but she never thought that Kenny would have to die, she's gotten out of allot of situations without getting people killed evidently. Remember that the root of the problem was Kenny when he beat Arvo almost to death, which lead to this moment when Jane truly disliked Kenny, he never even listened to Jane once!

                    • No because she said that the baby is dead and since then it became perfectly clear what her plans were

                      • She never said that AJ was dead, she only IMPLIED it. Obviously you perceived her intentions differently from how I did.

                        • Implying that AJ is dead is just as bad as saying he's dead. Either way, she still got Kenny to think AJ was dead, which is what she wanted. Did you not see how she pretended to look sad and curled in on herself when Kenny was still in the rest stop, but the minute he leaves she straightens and goes back to her stoic demeanor when speaking to Clem? She may not have verbally said AJ was dead but her body language, false sadness, and her silence when Kenny asks her "what are you saying?" damn well speaks louder than words. Her intentions were shady, the way she manipulated and took advantage of AJ and Kenny to get to Clem was disturbing, and there is no excuse for what she did.

                          • Did you not see how she pretended to look sad and curled in on herself when Kenny was still in the rest stop, but the minute he leaves she straightens and goes back to her stoic demeanor when speaking to Clem?

                            I actually completely forgot about that for some reason. I'm pretty sure that was the reason why I had a really good feeling that Jane was trying to pull something on Kenny from the start.

                  • The point is that she was still trying to drive him away at that point. Not kill him. But Kenny doesn't back down, as you said he did. He just relocated to a more open area to fight and he was trying to kill her. Jane let it escalate WAY the fuck more than it should have. I'm not arguing against that. But unlike Kenny, killing her opponent wasn't Jane's goal, at least initially. It was keeping him away from her, then driving him away.

                    • The point is that she was still trying to drive him away at that point. Not kill him. But Kenny doesn't back down, as you said he did.

                      In terms of backing down from the fight? He did. Just because he didn't run away and leave Clem with Jane doesn't mean he was looking to fight.

                      He just relocated to a more open area to fight and he was trying to kill her

                      As far as both you and I know, that may not be true. As soon as he got slashed he ran out there. Realistically I don't think he would be thinking in that sort of stragetic sense. He probably just wanted to get away. Regardless, when he goes outside he is literally backing away from her as she moves in on him. When she stops, he stops. He wasn't attacking her. There was clearly room to talk without interruption. Jane could have told him the baby was alive.

                      But unlike Kenny, killing her opponent wasn't Jane's goal, at least initially.

                      You don't know that was Kenny's goal initially. No one does. Some people are just randomly jumping to that conclusion. Just because he pinned her to a wall does not mean he was trying to kill her. A fight doesn't automatically = trying to kill someone.

                      I would maybe agree with you in the fact that Jane wasn't initially planning on trying to kill Kenny, but it really doesn't matter. There isn't any more evidence pointing to Kenny's initial intentions than there is to Jane's.

                      It was keeping him away from her, then driving him away.

                      She wanted to fight him though. That was the entire point. When she was unable to scare him off she decided to try and kill him. It was unnecessary.

                      • Just because he didn't run away and leave Clem with Jane doesn't mean he was looking to fight.

                        I honestly don't know how you could have watched that scene and concluded that Kenny wasn't looking to fight. When Clem pulls Jane off of Kenny in the building, he got slashed because he lunged at her. When they're outside and Clem does it again, he's the one who picks up the knife and stabs her in the leg as she was trying to back away. Then he lunges at her again with the knife to try to kill her.

                        Just because he pinned her to a wall does not mean he was trying to kill her. A fight doesn't automatically = trying to kill someone.

                        His goal was to attack her. I don't know how far he intended to go (and I'm not sure how much weight the word "intended" had with him in that state), but we all know how it turned out. He was intending to attack her and at the end, he chose to kill her. Her goal was to keep him away from her and drive him away. It wasn't to fight. She put her knife away and she told him to stay away from her. That's what she wanted.

                        • I honestly don't know how you could have watched that scene and concluded that Kenny wasn't looking to fight. When Clem pulls Jane off of Kenny in the building, he got slashed because he lunged at her. When they're outside and Clem does it again, he's the one who picks up the knife and stabs her in the leg as she was trying to back away. Then he lunges at her again with the knife to try to kill her.

                          Because we weren't talking about any of that.. we were talking about when Kenny was backing away... obviously he was wanting to fight at the start.

                          His goal was to attack her. I don't know how far he intended to go (and I'm not sure how much weight the word "intended" had with him in that state), but we all know how it turned out. He was intending to attack her and at the end, he chose to kill her

                          Yes, but he was fighting for his own life when he chose to kill her. Maybe he should have tried something different to end the fight, who can really accurately say. He had just gotten cut open, slashed and stabbed at, and almost gotten his eye gouged out. See all that blood on Kenny and around the area... that's his own.

                          Her goal was to keep him away from her and drive him away.

                          It really wasn't though.

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                          It wasn't to fight.

                          Yes it was. Her entire goal depended on fighting. If Kenny didn't fight her then she would have "proven" literally nothing in terms of what she was aiming to show Clem.

                          She put her knife away and she told him to stay away from her. That's what she wanted.

                          Again, that isn't the case. It doesn't make any sense at all in regards to her plans. She put the knife away because Kenny was just standing there instead of attacking her. If she seriously intended to prevent a fight there, then everything would have fallen on her head. It completely defeated the purpose of everything that she was manipulating there.

                          And regardless of this point, just because she put her knife away at the before the fight even started doesn't mean she should just decided to not later back down when she has the opportunity.

                          • Because we weren't talking about any of that.. we were talking about when Kenny was backing away... obviously he was wanting to fight at the start.

                            But it's silly to say that he wasn't looking to fight in that moment. Not looking to fight would mean that he would be fine with the fight ending at that moment. Which he wasn't.

                            Yes, but he was fighting for his own life when he chose to kill her.

                            Okay, that is complete bullshit and you know it. How is THIS:

                            Alt text

                            "fighting for his own life"?

                            Her entire goal depended on fighting. If Kenny didn't fight her then she would have "proven" literally nothing in terms of what she was aiming to show Clem.

                            Her entire goal depended on him freaking out and trying to attack her, but not on them fighting. She thought she could keep/drive him away, but he was too adamant in his attempts to kill her to let that happen. He didn't have any concern for his own life or hers. He just wanted blood.

                            He could have proven her wrong about him right at the start if he hadn't lunged at her when she put away her weapon. He didn't. He saw that as an opening. Maybe she thought he would lunge at her anyway but the bottom line is that she gave him a chance not to. He didn't take it. That makes him the aggressor.

                            • But it's silly to say that he wasn't looking to fight in that moment. Not looking to fight would mean that he would be fine with the fight ending at that moment. Which he wasn't.

                              You don't know that. Jane didn't even try and find out, that's kind of the point of everything that we have been talking about here. And either way, she was the one who attacked him here, not otherwise.

                              Okay, that is complete bullshit and you know it. How is THIS: http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-02-2014/sgl6JI.gif "fighting for his own life"?

                              Why? Just because he had gotten the advantage? Never mind the fact that Jane had just been trying her best to end his life and put him in excruciating pain, right? He had already backed away once before and she kept coming at him. Look at all that blood. That's all Kenny's blood. I don't think he would have been feeling like giving Jane another opportunity to do something to him. He was fighting for his life. He states as much afterwards, for what that's worth. Just because he gained the advantage and ended her doesn't mean he wasn't doing it with his own safety in mind.

                              Her entire goal depended on him freaking out and trying to attack her, but not on them fighting. She thought she could keep/drive him away

                              Could you provide some rationale for that? I don't see how that makes any sense. How would she drive him away without fighting him? She was also clearly baiting him by putting the knife away. After she broke free from him simply holding her against the wall, she took the opportunity to jump on him and tried to land a barrage of punches to the face. If she wasn't looking to fight, why didn't she just get away from him and explain that AJ was still alive? Knowing what we know about the whole incident, she never showed anything about not wanting to fight.. she really only showed otherwise.

                              If what you're saying here is true, then why does she clearly attack Kenny outside the building? Does it make it okay to then try and kill him just because he told her he wasn't leaving? It made it okay for her to attack him when he wasn't going to be driven away?

                              he was too adamant in his attempts to kill her to let that happen.

                              You're only speculating that he was trying to kill her. There is no reason for us to jump to that conclusion until he actually grabs her knife and kills her in self defense. A physical fight doesn't = trying to kill someone. He never did anything with lethal intent. I guess when he got mad at Lee on the train in Season One he was trying to kill him?

                              He could have proven her wrong about him right at the start if he hadn't lunged at her when she put away her weapon. He didn't. He saw that as an opening. Maybe she thought he would lunge at her anyway but the bottom line is that she gave him a chance not to. He didn't take it. That makes him the aggressor.

                              I agree, but that doesn't mean that Jane wasn't out for a fight or out for blood.

                              • Just because he gained the advantage and ended her doesn't mean he wasn't doing it with his own safety in mind.

                                After everything happens, what does Kenny say? He talks about how AJ is gone and asks how she could have done that. That was what was on his mind when he stabbed her. Not "Oh no, she's going to kill me," but "Fuck you, baby-killer, you die." Don't pretend that Kenny had anything less than blind rage and vengeance on his mind when he did what he did.

                                How would she drive him away without fighting him?

                                By threatening him. By facing him and telling him to go away because she had a knife and won't back down from him.

                                She was also clearly baiting him by putting the knife away.

                                If someone is baited into attacking you by you putting your weapon away, that says something about them. Not you.

                                After she broke free from him simply holding her against the wall, she took the opportunity to jump on him and tried to land a barrage of punches to the face.

                                Holding her against the wall? He was trying to choke her. And if she really wanted to kill him there, she could have simply whipped out her knife and done it. He wanted him to back off. Because as she saw with Arvo, Kenny has absolutely no problems beating someone relentlessly when they don't try to fight back.

                                You're only speculating that he was trying to kill her. There is no reason for us to jump to that conclusion until he actually grabs her knife and kills her in self defense.

                                He repeatedly says that he intends to kill her, one of those, while looking towards the knife on the ground. The fact that he took that opportunity as soon as it presented itself shows that that had been his intention.

                                Jane explicitly gave Kenny several opportunities to back off and end the bloodshed. He didn't take them. She declared her intentions as getting him to back off and go away. The only intentions he declared were to kill her.

                                • Just want to add, that it seems rather hilarious that we aren't allowed to assume that Kenny wants to kill Jane, but Jane 'clearly' wanted to fight and kill Kenny.

                                  Jane genuinely wanted to show Clem that Kenny was broken. If she simply stabbed him to death, she would have proven nothing. She did need him to attack her after she put down the knife - but the fact that he did doesn't show that Jane was trying to lure Kenny in to an attack, it simply shows that Jane was correct in her assessment of Kenny's character.

                                  • Just want to add, that it seems rather hilarious that we aren't allowed to assume that Kenny wants to kill Jane, but Jane 'clearly' wanted to fight and kill Kenny.

                                    Because Kenny wasn't doing anything lethal or all that dangerous to her until he finished her off at the end. It would be like saying Kenny wanted to kill Lee on the train back in Season One (in the case that you fight him instead of reasoning with him). Kenny actually gives Lee a rougher beatdown than anything he does to Jane before she decides to kill him.

                                    With Jane, it isn't really all that debatable. I mean... she almost killed him inside the building when she slashed him with her knife. If he had been a little closer his stomach could have been split open. She then proceeded to chase after him outside and slash and stab at him. If any of those would have connected he would definitely have been in really, really bad shape.

                                    Jane genuinely wanted to show Clem that Kenny was broken. If she simply stabbed him to death, she would have proven nothing. She did need him to attack her after she put down the knife - but the fact that he did doesn't show that Jane was trying to lure Kenny in to an attack, it simply shows that Jane was correct in her assessment of Kenny's character.

                                    As much as I would want to argue otherwise about Kenny's character here, none of this changes the fact that what Jane did was very wrong.

                                    • Most if not all of Jane's slashes were made defensively to keep Kenny at bay.

                                      If we aren't allowed to assume that "blind-rage Kenny" had murder on his mind, then I just don't see how you can be allowed to assume that "I want to show you what Kenny is Jane" has murder on her mind.

                                      If we can't assume the "worst", then neither can you.

                                      As an aside: I'm not going to argue any further. I think we've both made our points - repeatedly in various threads. Sorry for the sticking my head in, since I wasn't really involved (here at least). And finally, I think you are quite good at - repeatedly in various threads :P - presenting your views (though of course plainly wrong :P) nicely and with respect. That's all I have to say as an aside :)

                                      PS: And I know it's totally unfair to raise a point, and then say "but let's not talk about it". I hope you'll forgive me though :)

                                      • Most if not all of Jane's slashes were made defensively to keep Kenny at bay

                                        The only one that was possibly defensive is when she was on the ground as Kenny took a step towards her.. though it should be noted that Jane goes for her knife even before Kenny is back on his feet. She was still escalating the fight and could have potentially killed him there.

                                        Her other knife attacks came when Kenny had broken off of the fight and ran outside. He wasn't attacking her out there until she slashed and stabbed at him. They were not defensive moves, as again, Kenny was not doing anything to her. The fight should have ended there instead of her doing that.

                                        If we aren't allowed to assume that "blind-rage Kenny" had murder on his mind, then I just don't see how you can be allowed to assume that "I want to show you what Kenny is Jane" has murder on her mind.

                                        I never said that though. I think you may have misread what I said.

                                        I'm basing Jane's intent on her actually using lethal force, even after he had disengaged from the fight and wasn't doing anything to attack her.

                                        As an aside: I'm not going to argue any further. I think we've both made our points - repeatedly in various threads. Sorry for the sticking my head in, since I wasn't really involved (here at least). And finally, I think you are quite good at - repeatedly in various threads :P - presenting your views (though of course plainly wrong :P) nicely and with respect. That's all I have to say as an aside :) PS: And I know it's totally unfair to raise a point, and then say "but let's not talk about it". I hope you'll forgive me though :)

                                        Its cool, now you can't come back and give counter points ;)

                                • After everything happens, what does Kenny say? He talks about how AJ is gone and asks how she could have done that. That was what was on his mind when he stabbed her. Not "Oh no, she's going to kill me," but "Fuck you, baby-killer, you die."

                                  Obviously that's going to be on his mind. He cared about the baby a lot. That was the entire reason why he was in the fight in the first place. He was incredibly upset about the baby. That doesn't mean that was the reason why he chose to kill her there. I would assume that it was part of it, but that doesn't mean it was the overall reason. Not sure why you want to ignore the fact that he was covered in his own blood and was trying to get rid of a threat.

                                  Don't pretend that Kenny had anything less than blind rage and vengeance on his mind when he did what he did.

                                  You might as well be the one pretending.. considering you want to make speculations like this. And don't get me wrong, feel free to speculate all you want about that, but it doesn't really prove anything.

                                  By threatening him. By facing him and telling him to go away because she had a knife and won't back down from him.

                                  So what you're saying is she expected Kenny to attack her, but then get scared away by her knife and her threats? So why would she have put the knife away then? She hadn't accomplished that at all, as Kenny was standing right there and clearly not going anywhere. He actually looked pretty calm (which was of course no accident on his part).

                                  If someone is baited into attacking you by you putting your weapon away, that says something about them. Not you.

                                  Umm... why? Why does that only say something about Kenny, and not Jane. Why does it have to be one or the other? The whole point is the fact that Jane wanted to fight. That has been like... basically everything we have been talking about here.

                                  Holding her against the wall? He was trying to choke her.

                                  He wasn't though. If you look at the animation at the right angle, his forearm is on her collarbone. Its definitely not on her throat. Who tries to choke someone with their forearm? Is that even possible? Listen to her in the scene. Her voice was perfectly normal. She wasn't choking or sputtering for air. If Telltale wanted it to look like she was getting choked, they would have made it look like she was getting choked.

                                  Kenny did the exact same thing to Mike in episode three, though Mike obviously struggled a lot less.

                                  And if she really wanted to kill him there, she could have simply whipped out her knife and done it.

                                  Where have I ever said she wanted to kill him there? Maybe she didn't at that point, but that undoubtedly changed in a hurry.

                                  Because as she saw with Arvo, Kenny has absolutely no problems beating someone relentlessly when they don't try to fight back.

                                  Kenny only hit Arvo across the face three times. Kenny wasn't even hitting him anymore when Mike pulled him up. He was just sitting there. Regardless, I have no idea how you would know what Jane's character was supposed to be thinking there.

                                  He repeatedly says that he intends to kill her, one of those, while looking towards the knife on the ground.

                                  We were talking about the start of the fight.. were we not? I responded to your paragraph talking about Jane's goals going into the fight and how Kenny ruined them by "trying to kill her". I was only arguing that there was no evidence that he was trying to kill her at the start of the fight. Obviously he was trying to kill her by the end.

                                  The fact that he took that opportunity as soon as it presented itself shows that that had been his intention.

                                  What do you mean? You mean that that had been his intention from the start? If so, that isn't really a logical conclusion to jump to. But yes, as soon as he picked up the knife he was intending on finishing her.

                                  Jane explicitly gave Kenny several opportunities to back off and end the bloodshed.

                                  Several? She gave him one opportunity before the fight really even started. There was nothing after that, even after he had disengaged from the fight. She could have used that opportunity to stop the fight (by more than telling him to leave..). The fight should have ended there if Jane didn't have plans to kill him.

                                  She declared her intentions as getting him to back off and go away.

                                  And immediately decided to knife him once he told her he wasn't going to leave. This doesn't justify anything.

                                  The only intentions he declared were to kill her.

                                  He only says this twice. Once when she socks him in his bad eye causing him to fall to the ground, and once before he finishes her off. I personally don't even put much merit into the statement in the first instance, considering it contradicted his actions at that point. He said the same thing to Jane when she was insulting him and his family in the truck. Obviously an uncouth thing to say, but it doesn't necessarily line up with intent.

                                  Regardless though, this whole thing is about Jane and whether or not she was out for blood. She pretty clearly was.

                                  • Not sure why you want to ignore the fact that he was covered in his own blood and was trying to get rid of a threat.

                                    Because he says "Just imagining what she did to Alvie, everything just went black." You have a man who's stated reason for attacking a woman is that he thought she killed a baby, repeatedly said that he would kill her during the fight, actually did kill her when he got a weapon in his hands, and talked about how she killed the baby right after he killed her, and then said that line to explain why he did what he did. I think it's pretty damn clear what happened. Even if you don't, would you at least agree with me that if Kenny had killed Jane because he thought she killed the baby, that he would have been guilty of second degree murder?

                                    So why would she have put the knife away then? She hadn't accomplished that at all, as Kenny was standing right there and clearly not going anywhere. He actually looked pretty calm (which was of course no accident on his part).

                                    You literally just answered your own question. Kenny looked like he had calmed down. But he wasn't, was he? He was waiting for an opportunity to attack. She didn't know that, so she put her weapon away. That's when he lunged at her.

                                    Umm... why? Why does that only say something about Kenny, and not Jane. Why does it have to be one or the other?

                                    ...Really? Because you can't be faulted for making a non-aggressive gesture. But you can be faulted for responding to a non-aggressive gesture with aggression. If Kenny was "baited" into attacking Jane by her making a non-aggressive gesture, he's the only one at fault in that exchange.

                                    He wasn't though. If you look at the animation at the right angle, his forearm is on her collarbone. Its definitely not on her throat.

                                    His forearm was right under her chin. But, you know, I'll just leave the gif here and people can judge for themselves.

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                                    Regardless, I have no idea how you would know what Jane's character was supposed to be thinking there.

                                    The reason Jane was doing this was because she saw how dangerous Kenny had become. You honestly don't think Kenny's previous fits of violence factored into her decision-making here?

                                    He only says this twice.

                                    Three times for me. Once also when my Clem said that they were going to kill each other and he responded "No, I'm going to kill her." And my point is that those were the only intentions he declared. He didn't give any indications that there would be another way to end the fight for him.

                                    Regardless though, this whole thing is about Jane and whether or not she was out for blood. She pretty clearly was.

                                    Not initially. Initially, she didn't want any bloodshed at all. Kenny did. Once the fight escalated, she wanted to hurt him, but my point was that Jane wasn't necessarily lying when she said "I didn't expect him to go that far." She didn't. But when it did go that far, she went with it. And that was wrong.

                                    • Not initially. Initially, she didn't want any bloodshed at all. Kenny did. Once the fight escalated, she wanted to hurt him, but my point was that Jane wasn't necessarily lying when she said "I didn't expect him to go that far." She didn't. But when it did go that far, she went with it. And that was wrong.

                                      I'm not really sure why Jane would expect any kind of reaction from Kenny besides a psychotic breakdown. The thing is, when the two characters are trying to justify their actions outside the car to Clem, there's some truth in both of their arguments. Ultimately the player has to decide which one is the lesser evil. (Or just say the hell with it, and ditch them both).

                                      All the same, I still don't think Kenny would have uttered that "you did the right thing" line after being shot by Clem, if he knew AJ was still alive.

                                      • Well, she knew he'd become violent over AJ's supposed death and blamed her for it, but she might not have figured that he would think that she intentionally killed the baby. That was what drove Kenny over the edge and made him kill her. Not the mere "fact" that AJ had died but the assumption that he was murdered.

                                    • Because he says "Just imagining what she did to Alvie, everything just went black." You have a man who's stated reason for attacking a woman is that he thought she killed a baby, repeatedly said that he would kill her during the fight, actually did kill her when he got a weapon in his hands, and talked about how she killed the baby right after he killed her, and then said that line to explain why he did what he did. I think it's pretty damn clear what happened."

                                      He also stated: "By the time I came to my senses... it was too late.". He says that right after he says the line about everything going black. Which means that by the time he was out of rage mode (or whatever you want to call it), he was fighting for his life. Kenny obviously started the fight, but I don't think we can just ignore Jane's clear escalation.

                                      Would you at least agree with me that if Kenny had killed Jane because he thought she killed the baby, that he would have been guilty of second degree murder?

                                      If he only killed her for the sole reason of him thinking she had killed the baby? Yes, I would agree with you in that instance. (Though that wouldn't change my perspective on Jane here)

                                      You literally just answered your own question. Kenny looked like he had calmed down. But he wasn't, was he? He was waiting for an opportunity to attack. She didn't know that, so she put her weapon away. That's when he lunged at her.

                                      But again, how would that fit into her overall plan? If she was looking for him to attack her, why would she just be so w/e about letting it die down? Do you think she had already proven her point just because Kenny had taken one swing at her? If she was planning on being done there I don't know why on Earth she wouldn't just tell him AJ is alive. She kind of just continues to run with the agenda. Threatening a guy who is in rage mode because he thinks his adopted baby has been murdered just seriously sounds like a really bad idea for someone who is supposedly trying to end the altercation before it really even starts.

                                      Because you can't be faulted for making a non-aggressive gesture. But you can be faulted for responding to a non-aggressive gesture with aggression. If Kenny was "baited" into attacking Jane by her making a non-aggressive gesture, he's the only one at fault in that exchange

                                      But if we're talking about her actually baiting him here, that would mean we're talking about her in the sense of wanting a fight or wanting violence in general. Why would we just ignore that?

                                      His forearm was right under her chin. But, you know, I'll just leave the gif here and people can judge for themselves.

                                      His upper forearm/wrist was pushing into her collarbone. His upper forearm wasn't actually against her neck. Again, why would Telltale not alter her voice or her actions here to be appropriate with someone who is actually legitimately getting choked? Like I said before, if Telltale wanted it to look like she was getting choked there, they would have made it look that way.

                                      Kenny does the same thing to Mike in episode three:

                                      Alt text

                                      Obviously he wasn't trying to choke him here, right? From one angle it looks like his forearm is on his neck, from Mike's view we can see that it isn't.

                                      The reason Jane was doing this was because she saw how dangerous Kenny had become. You honestly don't think Kenny's previous fits of violence factored into her decision-making here?

                                      Alright, but you were being a lot more specific than that. You were saying that Jane figured that Kenny would have relentlessly beaten her because he had supposedly relentlessly beaten Arvo. I was only saying that wasn't what actually happened with Arvo. It didn't happen with anyone (not counting Carver obviously). So the whole idea of Jane knowing that Kenny would have beaten her relentlessly based on past experience doesn't really add up. I could see her being precautionary obviously because of the actual conflict at hand, but there wasn't anything in the past to compare to.

                                      And I still don't understand Jane's (and others) logic behind being scared of Kenny on a personal threat level for the simple fact that he was rough with Arvo. I don't agree with how he treated Arvo either, but how does that kind of treatment equate to him being a potential serious direct threat to another group member's safety?

                                      Three times for me. Once also when my Clem said that they were going to kill each other and he responded "No, I'm going to kill her." And my point is that those were the only intentions he declared. He didn't give any indications that there would be another way to end the fight for him.

                                      Ah, I had forgotten about that one potentially being in there. Even when he says that though, Jane is coming at him with a knife after she had just sprinted after him screaming "This is all your fucking fault!". Also, considering he wasn't actually doing anything to actively hurt her at that point, he had to have been assuming that she was going to come to him in some form of attack (and all indications were pointing to her doing that.. considering she was moving in on him with a knife). I mean, obviously he isn't going to kill her by just standing there.

                                      And speaking strictly towards Jane here, she should have ended the fight here regardless. Could have just told him AJ was alive, among other things.

                                      Not initially. Initially, she didn't want any bloodshed at all.

                                      For reasons I have listed earlier in this post, I still don't see how that could possibly be the case. I don't think she necessarily planned to kill him there, but she was definitely wanting a fight of some kind.

                                      Once the fight escalated, she wanted to hurt him, but my point was that Jane wasn't necessarily lying when she said "I didn't expect him to go that far." She didn't.

                                      Go that far in what sense though? Attack her? That's what she was saying... right? Even if you want to argue that she let her guard down at the start because of thinking that Kenny had calmed down, that doesn't really change the fact that she had expected him to attack before that anyway. If she was talking about the whole part of Kenny being on top of her with the knife, I don't know how she could honestly feel that way considering she had also actively been trying to kill him before that.

                                      But when it did go that far, she went with it. And that was wrong.

                                      I guess that is really my main issue (and the OP's) with her here. She had the opportunity to at least try and end the fight once it had escalated, but she chose to only escalate even further. She tried to kill the man when it wasn't necessary.

                                      • He also stated: "By the time I came to my senses... it was too late.". He says that right after he says the line about everything going black. Which means that by the time he was out of rage mode (or whatever you want to call it), he was fighting for his life.

                                        I interpreted that as "By the time I came to my sense, Jane was already dead." You really think he meant that he had come back to his sense before lunging at Jane with the knife and trying to kill her?

                                        If she was looking for him to attack her, why would she just be so w/e about letting it die down? Do you think she had already proven her point just because Kenny had taken one swing at her?

                                        She was open to being proved wrong about him. Which would have happened if he didn't attack her and let her talk, as Clem recommended. Regardless of whether she really believed that he would have stopped at that point, she gave him a chance to do so, and he rejected it. It's not like she forced his hand by putting away her weapon. She put herself in a position where she could be victimized and Kenny chose to victimize her when he could have chosen not to. To say that that meant that she was "out for blood" is silly.

                                        His upper forearm wasn't actually against her neck. Again, why would Telltale not alter her voice or her actions here to be appropriate with someone who is actually legitimately getting choked?

                                        His arm was clipping into her neck. The only reason she wasn't choking was because she had her right arm pushing back the arm he was using to choke her, so he couldn't apply the necessarily force to block her airway.

                                        I don't agree with how he treated Arvo either, but how does that kind of treatment equate to him being a potential serious direct threat to another group member's safety?

                                        Because he brutally beat Arvo for no reason, or more specifically, on the false, baseless assumption that he had deceived the group. That seems pretty relevant to Jane's situation. She obvious doesn't want to end up like Arvo, with Kenny beating her face in until someone gets him to stop. Like she said, "next time, he'll kill him." So she fought back.

                                        I mean, obviously he isn't going to kill her by just standing there.

                                        Well, the last time they were standing like that he rushed at her. She wasn't about to let that happen again.

                                        If she was talking about the whole part of Kenny being on top of her with the knife, I don't know how she could honestly feel that way considering she had also actively been trying to kill him before that.

                                        I'm not so sure that she was actively trying to kill him. She slashes at him, but after they tumble into the sign and their both on the ground, she doesn't try to go for the knife to finish him off. She goes for his wounded eye to incapacitate him. He's the one who reaches towards the knife while saying "I'm going to kill you."

                                        She had the opportunity to at least try and end the fight once it had escalated, but she chose to only escalate even further.

                                        Yes, I can agree with this.

                  • On top of that: She knew, that Kenny would believe that she killed the baby, that was her plan. So, why do people believe that Jane wanted Kenny to "Just go." That would mean for Kenny to leave Clem alone with a supposed Babykiller. This is just a ridiculous assumption and Jane is far too calculating for this to be her "plan".

                    Also, Jane wants to betray Kenny when he is out of the car looking for Diesel. That means abandoning Kenny in the middle of a fucking snowstorm with no supplies and nowhere to go. For all purposes, this is pretty much a death sentence. Jane knows this and she still asks Clem to do it. So Jane is willing to get Kenny killed. She might not want to get her hands dirty and do it by herself at this point, but her intentions are very clear. You just need to look at her actions it tells you everything.

              • You're saying that I'm trying to make this about Kenny when he is part of the problem and you even stated him above?

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        ErenCoral BANNED

        What the hell, Kenny started the fight. After Kenny tried to get the first punch she dodged and took her knife out THEN put it back in. Then Kenny pushed her against a glass door and started choking her. Then Kenny attacked her again and thats when she pulled out the knife. She did it in self defense.

        • That isn't what we're talking about (though I highly disagree with what you are saying). We're talking about when Kenny backed off after Jane slashed his stomach. He ran away from her. Jane ran after him with her knife and told him she was going to kill him. All the while he is backing away from her. He wasn't fighting her. She then tries to kill him instead of taking the time to rationalize or admit that the baby is still alive. She was more interested in trying to kill him then find a peaceful resolution.

          • So you expect a pleasing argument when you restrict some of the parts that came to play?

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            ErenCoral BANNED

            ... Kenny started the fight and she was going to end it. She was sick of him and his bullshit. After he attacked her the both of them were gonna do anything to kill eachother at that point. There was no getting away from it. Im glad she tried to end Kenny because all he's ever done is cause problems.

            • He started the fight ? You sure , she started it in the car attacking him and everything he loves so she had a reason....

              • Jane reacted to Kenny and talked about his family AFTER he called Jane nothing, saying that she cares for no one and no one cares for her.

                • She was unstable so she left, and there i made the conclusion that clem can better side with kenny who killed most of the ruskies

                  • Just more people to add onto Kenny's hit-list. R.I.P. Natasha, Buricko and Vitali.

                    • Oh, it's not like the Russians were going to kill us all and take our stuff. Totally not.

                      • Oh, it's not like the Russians were just trying to Survive in any means possible just like Clementine's group. Totally not.

                        • Are you saying you would have been ok if the Russians successfully robbed them, and massacred the whole group, possibly including the baby? Just because one can understand it from their side doesn't mean one should yield to them and allow them to kill Clem and the others. If one were to apply that to real world standards then one could say that America shouldn't have retaliated towards Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor, because we understood their reasoning behind it. It's a ridiculous notion honestly.

                          • The fact of the matter is that the Russians were not successful. So is it ok that the group practically got a whole Community slaughtered? The group left Howe's and by escaping using sound, they drew the Walkers attention towards Howe's. Just because we understand why the group left Howe's doesn't mean it's ok for the group to have caused the death of many innocent lives. That's the thing about the apocalypse, it's kill or be killed, therefore no group should be blamed for their actions.

                            • Yes, but we play as Clem, so our group takes priority above others. We should care more what happens to our group compared to other groups, because said groups are not going to spare us just because we've shown them compassion, as you said it's kill or be killed in the apocalypse. We protect our loved ones at any cost, even if that means at the sake of others. In this case there are double standards, but they are justified due to the circumstances. It's a brutal concept, but a realistic one.

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                    ErenCoral BANNED

                    What the hell? She left because she didn't want to see another member die. This is why she avoids connections in the first place. Kenny killed most of the russians? He only killed 1. And Jane killed 1 which saved Kenny's life. Also refer from using the word ruskie since its racist.

                  • you realise kenny would have died in that shootout if it had not been for jane, correct?

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                ErenCoral BANNED

                He started by saying this to her Kenny: You're just a loner who cares about nobody. And nobody cares about you.

                He can't shut his big mouth up and has to make problems everywhere he goes.

                • Because SHE RAN AWAY and she didn't even wanted to tell anyone, and thats no reason to attack someones beloved ones who have died... She provoked it so now she's dead in my game

                  • She ran away? So what? She didn't owe the group a single thing, she helped the group despite the fact that she could've left them for dead anytime she wanted, but she didn't.

                    • Yeah she only cares about herself(run away) just like kenny said

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                        ErenCoral BANNED

                        Omg you're even dumber than Kenny -_- She ran away because she didn't want to see anyone else to die. Could you maybe stop making up stuff and please stop quoting Kenny without even explaining how he is right...

                        • I could say the same thing about you, it a game... and your point isn't the best thing ever everyone played it in their own way and you should respect other peoples choises

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                            ErenCoral BANNED

                            I am trying to respect other peoples choices but you keep saying points/quotes without explaining them multiple times now... You also keep saying the same thing over and over again when I've already addressed it.

                            • the points you make are not the choises i made in my game Jane decided that kenny should die by "ending"it and lying about a dead baby which she knew he loved with all his heart thats just sick

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                                ErenCoral BANNED

                                What are you talking about? We all get the same story and same gameplay, the only thing that our choices change is our ending. Anyway, I already addressed your points in my post above. Please do not rewrite posts that I already addressed -_-

                          • Are you serious? You're talking about respect when you were practically demeaning Jane, thus being disrespectful towards those that chose her.

                        • Omg you're even dumber than Kenny -_-

                          Yes, throw petty insults at people for disagreeing with you, that will definitely get people to take you seriously.

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                            ErenCoral BANNED

                            Read my post above, you'd see that he keeps re-writing points I have already addressed MULTIPLE TIMES now. He can't even make a proper discussion without the need of re-writing points I've addressed.

                            • That's not a good excuse for insulting someone, seems you can't make a proper discussion either if you don't realize that. I grow weary of people getting angry over a simple debate, and justifying throwing around needless personal insults.

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                                ErenCoral BANNED

                                The only reason I'm getting angry is that he cannot make a proper discussion without re-writing points I have addressed.

                                Him: OMGERRDDDD BUT JANE RUN AWAY I MEAN SHE IS SO EVILLLL (I addressed that in the post above him)

                                Him: OMGURRRRRRRRRD BUT LET SARAH DIE SHE IS SO EVILLLLL (I did address that in the post above him)

                                It is a good excuse to insult someone if he's going to be ignorant.

            • Yeah if I insult a dead person in your family what would you do?

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                ErenCoral BANNED

                He started insulting her first, she has the full right to insult him back seeing as he started it.

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                    ErenCoral BANNED

                    Kenny: Oh I know exactly what you are, You're a loner that cares about NOBODY. and nobody cares about you, that makes you NOTHING.

                    Jane: Stop the car! I'm sick of you.

                    Kenny: Oh running away from your problems again?

                    Jane: What is it with you? Its your family right?!

                    Kenny: Don't

                    As you see, Mr big mouth Kenny insulted her first.

                    • Saying no one cares about you, and that you care about no one, isn't that bad. If you get offended by that, you need to get some thicker skin. But that justifies her to mock Kenny over his dead family? That's some serious shit.

                      Example: Person 1 "Seriously, fuck you, no one likes you at all." Person 2: "What's wrong with you? It's your dead sister right?"

                      That would be a messed up thing to say to someone.

                      • What? Kenny's totally mocking her fully and blatantly. "You're a loner who cares about NOBODY, and nobody cares about you, that makes you NOTHING Them's fighting words right there. If you can't take it don't dish it out. Kenny knows nothing about her yet he acts like he knows everything about her. How can you NOT expect Jane not to retaliate? Jane lost her sister that's her family to. Kenny might as well have been mocking her of her dead family!

                        • He never said anything related to her family. Nothing taunting her about her dead sister. Hell I don't even think he knew about it. If Kenny said that, then I would understand Jane's reaction completely.

                          I don't hate Jane, she's a great character with flaws and strengths just like Kenny. But that does not make it okay to emotionally abuse someone by talking about their dead family. You should be able to shrug off someone saying that nobody likes you, and that you're nothing, but then you talk shit about the people who he loved?

                          • The idea that Kenny labels Jane as a loner who cares about nobody after she had spent the entire last episode leaving herself vulnerable for probably the first time in a long time to Clementine probably was made her snap. Hey, it's the apocalypse and it's not so easy to "shrug off" words anymore ** when tensions are high, especially coming from people like Kenny who we have seen lose control multiple times which has led to dissension in the group **multiple times.Kenny didn't have to say anything about her sister. Labeling her as a loner who cares about no one is just as emotionally abusing as Jane talking about Kenny's family. Kenny provoked her and started the whole argument in the first place.

      • All she says is "Not happening." so... you're wrong.

        also

        she always attacks him

        remember how he attacked her when she put away her knife

        • She says "Not happening" as in, "no Clem, I'm not going to let Kenny get away".

          • no, she says "not happening" as in "no clem, i'm not going to back down"

            • Watch the whole clip/scene. Clem tells Kenny to run, and Jane immediately says: "Not happening". She then tosses Clem out of the way and goes in for the kill.

            • "I'm going to put this crusty old bastard out of his misery." Jane says that. It sure doesn't sound like self defense.

              Both Kenny and Jane were out for blood. Jane orchestrated the situation knowing full well what would happen, which is why I support Kenny even though he really is a danger. He didn't deserve to die because Jane wanted to prove a point.

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                ErenCoral BANNED

                You do realize this was after Kenny threw the first punch AND pinned her against a glass wall while choking her. Her point was that he is a danger... He did deserve to die since he tries to murder a women which at that point accidentally killed a baby.

                • Why everybody seems to forget that Jane started the fight in the first place with the baby shit?

                • "Kenny deserves to die because Jane pushed him over the edge in order to have an excuse to kill him." - You

                  I never denied that Kenny wanted blood. He lost it and he wanted to kill Jane, which is wrong. But you know what? Jane knew exactly how far the fight would go when she pretended that AJ was dead. She knew that Kenny would try to kill her, which would let her kill him while looking like the victim. She even admits that during the fight. If Kenny deserves to die for being deliberately pushed over the brink like that, then Jane deserves to die just as much since she orchestrated the whole event in the first place for her own personal ends.

      • Absolutely! She just wanted to kill Kenny. She wanted to fight.

      • this is so stupid...but i've seen so many jane supporters saying that she wasn't looking for blood....she was just "showing clem who kenny is." seriously people...wtf...

        • Let me ask you, If all Jane wanted was to prove a point, then why after cutting Kenny; who then retreated out into the storm, why did Jane proceed to chase after him? Looks to me she just wanted him dead.

          • let's play devil's advocate....if kenny wants to protect AJ..the baby....why does kenny gotta confront jane in a hostile way...even if he thought the baby was dead..for whatever reason? The point that I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter which choice you make nor what your opinion/analyzed would be....because all the reasons that were mentioned were ALL RIGHT...there never were any wrong reasons...I used to think there was one real reason/or conclusion..but it came to "whatever you want it to be."

    • Oh yes she does, well depending on what choice you pick.

  • If only there were a [behead jane and make her suffer] option. Also i didnt mean to upvote prink.

    • Yikes. For me, that choice was a bit more conflicting. ;-) Ultimately, I made the same decision as you and let Kenny kill Jane, but it was a hard decision to make and I didn't want to see either of them suffer. I don't think Jane did anything to deserve being tortured and having her head cut off. She must have really ticked you off. Lol.

      • Haha, right? People have to much bloodlust.

        • Just like Jane... right ;)

          • Please stop making everything about Jane, everyone by now knows you dislike her. My post (and I believe KCohere's too) was referring to Ellias' post about wanting to "behead and watch Jane suffer." Which, although ridiculous, is also quite harsh to a character that was only trying to help Clementine (even if her execution left a lot to be desired).

            Also, I'm not looking for you to level your points against Jane... again. This is just for you to know that some people don't like that kind of ridiculous behavior on these forums.

            • Please stop making everything about Jane You do understand that this thread is about Jane correct?

              Made a comment about Jane that 100% pertained to the topic at hand. Surprise..?

              My post (and I believe KCohere's too) was referring to Ellias' post about wanting to "behead and watch Jane suffer." Which, although ridiculous, is also quite harsh to a character that was only trying to help Clementine (even if her execution left a lot to be desired).

              I understand that.

              Also, I'm not looking for you to level your points against Jane... again. This is just for you to know that some people don't like that kind of ridiculous behavior on these forums.

              Ridiculous behavior? Again, I brought up Jane in a thread that had everything to do with her. Stop taking everything so personally. I literally did nothing wrong. I even said it in a light hearted sense. I'm allowed to express my opinion. Sorry that you don't care for it.

              • Ridiculous behavior? Again, I brought up Jane in a thread that had everything to do with her. Stop taking everything so personally. I literally did nothing wrong. I even said it in a light hearted sense. I'm allowed to express my opinion. Sorry that you don't care for it.

                The conversation you joined wasn't talking about Jane though, surprise. It was referring to Ellias' post about violently decapitating a character in a game. I thought it was ridiculous, so i (and KCohere i assume) simply made an observation. You then butted in saying "Just like Jane, right? ;)"

                When did either of us state anything to do with Jane? Show me please, I'd like to know...

                • Because it pertained to what the thread was about. I was making a light hearted point. No need to be so aggressive about this.

                  • I was making a light hearted point.

                    There was no point to be made though. Are you trying to say Jane had a bloodlust? I don't get it. Please explain.

                    No need to be so aggressive about this.

                    Was I? The only thing i see that could be misconstrued as "aggressive" is the part i say "The conversation you joined wasn't talking about Jane though, surprise." But only because you stated "Made a comment about Jane that 100% pertained to the topic at hand. Surprise..?" Which i found to be a bit smug and a little gauche.

                    • The Good ol' type of conversation Belan always bring: Your point makes no sense, I have got all the proof in the world to support me and you have got shit.

                    • Listen, I'm not going to have a huge discussion about this. I was only making a light hearted comment about Jane that was completely relevant to the thread. It doesn't even matter if it was an aside to what you two were talking about. I didn't say anything malicious, I didn't say anything immature or offensive. I'm not even going to defend myself after this post because its just silly. I'm sorry that you somehow took ill-intent from my post. It was only relevant to the thread that we were discussing in.

                      • So then we both agree you had absolutely no purpose in posting a completely extemporaneous comment about Jane. It felt forced and gauche and you know it too, now you're backpedaling by making me seem ill-intended and confrontational because I'm asking questions about your reasoning. Should've known there was none.

                        I now consider this matter closed.

                        • Its like you didn't even read a word that I said. Seriously, get off your high horse. Literally did zero backpedalling. Don't be a child about this. I'm telling you that I meant zero harm in what I said, and explained why I said what I said. I didn't attack anyone, I didn't belittle anyone, I simply made an observation relative to the thread. It wasn't forced, it wasn't gauche. I thought it completely relevant. You're acting like I was intentionally trolling or something. You're applying intentions to my post that I didn't mean to intend, and I'm telling you that you are incorrect. You can back off now. Thanks. This shouldn't even be a conversation.

                          I'm "immature" for posting a light hearted comment completely relative to the thread, and yet here you are refusing my explanation and then refusing my apology for you taking what I said the wrong way. Awesome.

                          • Alt text

                            O... k... then, thanks again for the riveting insight... I'm super stoked you are refusing to answer the questions yet again.

                            Are you trying to say Jane had a bloodlust? I don't get it. Please explain.

                            When did either of us state anything to do with Jane? Show me please, I'd like to know...

                            ...Whenever you're ready to answer the questions respectfully, I'll be waiting...

                            • There isn't much insight to be had here. It's very simple. You can take my explanation + my apology for accidentally causing you to take my post in the wrong way, or you can continue to act... like you're acting.

                              Either way, I'm done here. I'm almost a little embarrassed to have even been a part of this conversation. I really don't have anything to prove here. I gave you my explanation, take it or leave it.

                        • Tired of the mistreatment around here lol

                          • Honestly I don't even understand what they were getting at since the thread is about Jane, and Ellias was talking about Jane, but don't let them hear me say that lest they start doing to me what they did to you.

                          • Mistreatment you say? In Your so-called "Debates", The one sided arguments, You mistreat anyone who disagrees with you. This mistreatment you're speaking of is only a retaliation. This isn't TWAU forums.

                            • Not true at all. Please don't make false accusations like that. Its totally unnecessary.

                              Somehow out of all this I'm supposed to be "disrespectful", and "immature"... and yet there are comments like these flying around at me. Just stop. If you have something on this matter that you REALLY have to share with me, feel free to send me a PM and we can clear it up. No need for this here.

                              • Not false. 100% true. With the admission of all forum members that i know. Including Flog.

                                You can't just expect no retaliation to your "You're just making accusations", "You have no proof" type of conversation. I don't want to share anything with you, I'm only sharing support for "Everyone'sClemInTime".

                                • You can't just expect no retaliation to your "You're just making accusations", "You have no proof" type of conversation.

                                  If that's all you get out my posts, then you aren't reading.

                                  But yes, if someone is not backing up their arguments with something solid/provable I will question it, and then give rationale for my own viewpoint. That isn't equatable to "mistreating" someone. That is called having a discussion.

                                  • I really advise you to look through any conversation you had with anyone thoroughly. And I'd like to see one conversation you were involved in which concluded with you admitting that your idea was somehow flawed, Or that to each their own. Your problem is that you can't see that, Instead of addressing disapproval by saying that you have a different view, To actually address the disapproval with respect, You simply put it as that the opposite opinion doesn't make sense, Or, That they're lacking evidence, Or, That they're making assumptions. And then you keep going on and on and on, And addressing the exact same points in each of your comments, Failing to see that there's ANOTHER point of view. Failing to see beyond your own entitlement.

                                    Basically, You're the one who aren't reading.

                                    • I really advise you to look through any conversation you had with anyone thoroughly. And I'd like to see one conversation you were involved in which concluded with you admitting that your idea was somehow flawed

                                      This means nothing. If someone actually shows me how I'm wrong/ how my argument is flawed, I will gladly change my viewpoint. If that doesn't happen, then I will not concede my points just to look fair.

                                      Or that to each their own. Your problem is that you can't see that, Instead of addressing disapproval by saying that you have a different view

                                      That's ridiculous. What is the point of discussion then? What are you doing right here, right now? You're clearly not just telling me: "I disagree with you" and walking away. You're trying to prove something.

                                      Trying to tell me that I'm some sort of rude individual for challenging people to think about their own viewpoints is frankly, stupid. You're basically saying you should be able to say whatever you want and no one is allowed to take you up on it. You act like disagreeing with someone is a malicous thing to do. You really, really, really need to lighten up. People are going to question your opinions/analysis/ideas. Its part of life. Its not a bad thing. If you really want to put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and walk away from it, then by all means do that.

                                      I try my best to be nothing but civil and reasonable when disagreeing (maybe this post is an exception). I'm not putting you on trial when I disagree with you. I just want a friendly, intelligent conversation.

                                      To actually address the disapproval with respect, You simply put it as that the opposite opinion doesn't make sense, Or, That they're lacking evidence, Or, That they're making assumptions.

                                      That isn't disrespect. If something doesn't appear to make logical sense, I'll point it out and then explain why that is so. It's all part of having intelligent, meaningful discussion.

                                      The funny part is, if people truly do not want to have these type of conversations, why do they ever give back counter points/arguments? People are more than quick and ready to defend their opinions around here. You certainly have done so in cases of me disagreeing with your opinions. Heck, you're doing it right now. If you think things should only be seen as subjective and non debatable, why are you here having this conversation? Why do you waste time defending your viewpoints ever? Its so contradictive to what you're trying to push here.

                                      And then you keep going on and on and on, And addressing the exact same points in each of your comments, Failing to see that there's ANOTHER point of view.

                                      Of course there is another point of view. That goes without saying. Obviously if there wasn't another point of view I wouldn't be debating with anyone. Just because someone has a different point of view doesn't mean the logic of it can't be questioned (not in a malicious sense.. ffs..).

                                      I can honestly say I am a more intelligent person than I was when I joined these forums, because of having these types of conversations with people such as Flog, and even DomeWing in this very thread. There is merit to having intelligent, complete discussion. Again, if you don't want to be a part of it, then fine, but don't poorly label people who are interested in having these conversations.

                                      Failing to see beyond your own entitlement.

                                      You're going to talk to me about entitlement when you're the one feeling entitled enough to actually attempt to call out a forum user out like this? Please. I can't take that seriously. And that's not even mentioning the hypocrisy and contradictions of your overall post..

                                      Basically, You're the one who aren't reading.

                                      "I am the one who are not reading"?

                                      What?

                                      Oh, you mean to say "is not reading"? Gotcha.

                                      • Facepalm. Typical respond from you.

                                        You're, Again, Jumping to conclusions. The point of debates is to exhibit your points, not to force them upon others. The only debates of that kind are the ones in which an idea contradicts another one. Much like The Creationism vs Evolution type of debates. TTG games are RPG, "Role Playing Games". They're clearing the path for YOU to choose. Having those types of debates on the forums is pointless.

                                        Disagreeing is one thing, And Nazism is another thing. Much like my chats with "TheGoodTheBadtheDead". We used to argue about a lot of stuff, But we always end up respecting each others. For example, I like TWDG S2, He had some criticism to it. We had our conversation and ended up understanding his point of view as much as he understood mine, Then we reached a conclusion. Whatever that was, It satisfied both ends. What you're always trying to do is nitpicking others and creating flaws of their points instead of addressing yours and actually making a true civilized conversation.

                                        The funny part is, if people truly do not want to have these type of conversations, why do they credit my response with justification? People are so ready to defend their points. You certainly have done so in the cases of me disagreeing with your opinions. Heck, you're doing it right now. If you think things should only be seen as subjective and non debatable, why are you here having this conversation? Why do you waste time defending your viewpoints ever? Its so contradictive to what you're trying to push here.

                                        Everyone has their own justifications and reasons for liking whatever they want. That's why they retaliate. They don't need you nitpicking them and telling them that they make no sense. And again, No, I don't think things should be non-debatable. But it has to be subjective. And that subjectivity has to be respected.

                                        I'm opinionated, And individualistic, Not entitled. That's the difference between me and you. Every choice i make is fully influenced by my own character.

                                        Seriously?

                                        PS: I deleted a large part of the comment about how mental evidence should be taken more seriously than materialistic evidence.

                                        • Why do I even bother. I literally could just copy and paste what I said in my last post to address this.

                                          Lets sum it up. You don't like people disagreeing with you. You don't like people questioning your viewpoints. You don't like people implying that you could be incorrect about something. Okay, great. Good for you. Doesn't make everyone else who tries to have intelligent discussion some kind personal attacker. You act like I go around telling people that they aren't allowed to have a separate opinion. This isn't based on anything. I'm allowed to voice my own opinion and address their points with points of my own. If I don't think something makes sense, I will say so and then explain why feel that way, while presenting my own input on the situation. There is nothing disrespectful about this, there is nothing wrong about this. Again, it is part of intelligent conversation.

                                          You talk about respect, and yet you here you are relentlessly attacking another forum user. #logic

                                          • Your problem. You have got nothing to say but what you already said, You've never really read or analyzed anything I've posted, Have you? I don't like how you're basically telling me that I'm not intelligent enough to have a conversation, But I'm just trying to ignore that.

                                            It's true though, You're just over-simplifying things. My point is not that simple. Since you just don't listen, You can go around the forums and ask people what they think about you, And you'll get it straight in the face even from Flog. Don't believe me? Check the respect thread Flog created. End of story.

                                            • So, what you're essentially saying is that my posting style is disrespectful/rude just because you say so. Please stop wasting your time. You're not bringing anything to the table. There is a reason why I didn't address what you posted, I had already answered it. As much as I would like to waste my time addressing your points, there is nothing to defend against.

                                              I don't like how you're basically telling me that I'm not intelligent enough to have a conversation, But I'm just trying to ignore that.

                                              What a joke. I never said that.

                                              • I've already explained why and I've already pulled myself out.

                                                Doesn't make everyone else who tries to have intelligent discussion some kind personal attacker.

                                                And many other quotes implying that. You haven't stated it directly, But you've definitely implied it. Intentionally or not.

                                                • I've already explained why and I've already pulled myself out.

                                                  You have only explained why you feel the way that you do. You haven't actually proven anything. You haven't brought anything of substance to the table. Its a baseless attack, and you're only wasting your time.

                                                  • What I've explained is a thorough analysis of your type of posts. I don't need a materialistic evidence. I guess i really shouldn't have scrapped that part off the comment because you just can't get it, Can you?

                                                    • Whatever man its just your opinion!1!1!1!!!!!!!!

                                                      See what I did there? This is the kind of argument that you're trying to have. Its just stupid and no one can take it seriously.

                                                      • No, It is not. Again, The difference is explained thoroughly before. You just have to read, Difficult much?

                                                        • Nah man, its only your opinion that there is a difference. Please stop trying to force your viewpoint upon others. Its pure disrespect.

                                                          (Again, see what I did there..?)

                                                          • Facepalm

                                                            You can't even tell an opinion from a fact, Can you? Very poor example, Irrelevant to the points I'm trying to make.

                                                            • Oh, so only you are allowed to discern fact from pure opinion and baseless speculation? I'm not allowed to do that in my posting though? (You didn't bring up anything close to factual by the way). When I try to do something similar in my posting that makes me disrespectful?

                                                              You're only proving my point here.

                                                              • No, Completely inaccurate. My mistake this time, I'm not explaining my point very well. But I'm afraid I can't discuss anything with you right now because It's 6AM in here and I'm sleepy.

                                                                • Listen man, people are going to take other people up on their opinions if they feel like something they said is questionable or faulty. Its not a bad thing. People are just looking for discussion. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not everything needs be seen only as subjective and untouchable (in regards to the game). I mean no disrespect when I take people up on their opinions, or when I try to prove my points.

                                                                  Trying to discern something as logical or even factual is just an aspect of discussion. It isn't a disrespectful thing to do, unless you're trying to do it in a harmful sort of way, or have a harmful point in mind. For example, what you have been trying to prove in regards to my posting is just that. That is why I was being purposely (obviously) obstinate in my last couple of posts towards you. I was proving a point.

                                                                  • Not that kind of discussion. People like me forge their own creeds and beliefs and they don't like strangers, Who know absolutely nothing about my own beliefs to question that. Questioning an opinion is one thing and questioning a personality is another thing. That's what i believe in, That i need to know my limits. And that's why i value subjectivity. Your other problem is that when you talk about any matter, Including the Kenny vs Jane, You don't use subjectivity, you generalize it as a whole, As if it was supposed to be the right thing. Intentionally or not. And the third flaw is that you don't know when to stop. I'm very stubborn and i never let go of a good conversation unless it has reached its conclusion, But sometimes, the conversation isn't that good. Maybe because i made mistake, then i apologize. Or, The person I'm talking to is disrespectful to me, That's when i retaliate. Those are your flaws in debating, And I'm trying my best to simply them because you don't seem to get the complex and detailed review.

                                                                    • Questioning an opinion is one thing and questioning a personality is another thing.

                                                                      I don't go around questioning the personality of anyone, unless they're intentionally attacking. I don't make it personal, I don't toss around insults. I'm all for keeping things as civil as possible.

                                                                      Your other problem is that when you talk about any matter, Including the Kenny vs Jane, You don't use subjectivity, you generalize it as a whole, As if it was supposed to be the right thing. Intentionally or not

                                                                      Of course I use subjectivity, to an extent. If I feel like something can be discerned though, I'm going to try and make that point. This is true of most posters on these forums. That is the entire point of discussion for a lot of people.

                                                                      I mean, obviously if I said something stupid along the lines of: "Jane only came back to the group because she wanted to get down with Luke again", that would be highly questioned and ridiculed because it is pure speculation and nothing more. Are you saying no one should question that just because it would be my opinion? There is nothing that completely disproves it, so it would technically be a subjective viewpoint. Same thing for when people state that Kenny was trying to kill Jane at the very start of their fight just because he was angry and physical. Same thing when people state that Kenny tried to beat Arvo to death. Nothing backs these statements up, so I will argue against them whenever I see them brought up. Again, even though we're talking about subjective viewpoints, that doesn't mean we can't try and reach some sort of logical conclusion. It isn't disrespectful to think there is a more logical/ more reasonable answer.

                                                                      And the third flaw is that you don't know when to stop.

                                                                      Maybe, maybe not. Why should it be up to me to stop if I still have points to make? If someone wants to drop out of the discussion, they can do so at any time.

                                                                      You're trying to apply all kinds of personal rules to discussion and it just isn't very realistic to how people work.

                                                                      • I'm going to merge the first point with the second.

                                                                        The forums are made for personal thoughts and respective debates. As I've already stated, TTG game are RPG, Which means each opinion is valid. So, If you go around generalizing your opinion, You're doing it wrong. Even if the majority does the same thing. That's why Forums for companies like Ubisoft aren't that active. For example, When i stated my opinion on Sarah, I said that I think of her that way because of my personal opinion, Not because she's stupid and dull as many Sarah haters claim. I believe in a principle, Same thoughts don't mean same motivations. Every majority is made of dozens of ministries.

                                                                        Because the conversation is going nowhere? It won't conclude and you'll end up getting too repetitive and it'll turn out to be a pointless argument.

                                                                        These standards are set by the forums guidelines in order to add diversity to the forums. Diversity and Respect is what keeps any forums going on.

                                                                        • The forums are made for personal thoughts and respective debates. As I've already stated, TTG game are RPG, Which means each opinion is valid. So, If you go around generalizing your opinion, You're doing it wrong. Even if the majority does the same thing.

                                                                          You have your way, we have ours. We'll respect the way you want to go about posting if you respect the way we go about posting. If you don't want to debate the game, then fine. Don't debate it. Others feel differently. It doesn't make us bad, malicious people.

                                                                          As I've already stated, TTG game are RPG, Which means each opinion is valid.

                                                                          So if I made a post saying that Carver was a good man who was greatly wronged by Clem's group, that would be a completely valid opinion that no one should refute? Obviously I'm exaggerating here, but the point is that things are not totally untouchable just because we're talking about a "RPG". Not everything is entirely/reasonably subjective. If I see something I consider to be questionable or faulty in logic, I will take someone up on the matter, such as when people insist that Jane was doing nothing but defending herself in the fight incident.

                                                                          Because the conversation is going nowhere? It won't conclude and you'll end up getting too repetitive and it'll turn out to be a pointless argument.

                                                                          My arguments have not been pointless by any means.

                                                                          • Again, I never really said anything about making the game non-debatable.

                                                                            Why not? Someones agrees with Carver, Why not hear him out and see how he thinks? Ask him questions about his beliefs, Get to understand them, Then debate the point you have with his point until it reaches the point that to each their own, That it has reached the level of a personal creation instead of a collective consciousness. That's my creed, To give people subjectivity, To establish individuality.

                                                                            Sometimes, They get pointless. Sometimes, The conversation isn't just going anywhere whatever you do. So, You just call it a quit. Or, When it reaches a personal level. The point is, Portray your own opinion and address it, Stop shooting holes in others'.

                                                                  • Verdict: Question the opinion, Not the motive.

                                                                    Now if you will exuse me, I have to pay my bed a visit.

                                                                    PS: Sorry about the second part of my last comment. As I've already said, I'm really sleepy and i mis-read something you wrote.

                                      • I actually laughed out loud when I read the bit about entitlement.

                                        • If you have nothing conducive to add to this argument, I suggest not adding unnecessary fuel.

                                          It's not helpful.

                                          • If you have nothing conducive to add to this argument

                                            Nah, I'm clearly being ripped on based on absolutely nothing (at least nothing that has been presented here). Its only fair.

                                            • Belan? I didn't know you spoke for Eddie? Cause I was kinda clearly giving him some sound advice to not keep adding more fuel to this drawn out, superfluous conversation. You talk about being highly intelligent but are becoming more and more confrontational with me and other members because we only try to present a different point of view. Seems completely rational in my book (obvious sarcasm).

                                              This whole thing was started because I threw up a gif giving a reaction I had because of another users' blatantly repulsive remarks about decapitating and watching a video game character suffer, for no reason. I had seen many like it but decided to give my impression to that type of savage behavior. You then decided to give an extemporaneous reply saying "Just like Jane, right?" When neither I nor KCohere ever said anything about Jane.

                                              Nah, I'm clearly being ripped on based on absolutely nothing (at least nothing that has been presented here). Its only fair.

                                              Are you serious? Playing the victim card because two people are calling you out on your increasingly tenuous viewpoints? Plus you're obviously garnering more support than me, seeing as though your comments have well more likes than mine. Must mean I'm doing something wrong right? (more sarcasm)

                                              ...Now, please stop.

                                              • Belan? I didn't know you spoke for Eddie? Cause I was kinda clearly giving him some sound advice to not keep adding more fuel to this drawn out, superfluous conversation.

                                                Is this a joke? I was defending the guy. I didn't know that I was only allowed to respond to posts directed strictly to myself. Who do you think you are exactly?

                                                You talk about being highly intelligent

                                                Show me one time.

                                                but are becoming more and more confrontational with me and other members because we only try to present a different point of view.

                                                Confrontational because of a different viewpoint? How about the fact that the opposing viewpoint is a clear attack on me?

                                                This whole thing was started because I threw up a gif giving a reaction I had because of another users' blatantly repulsive remarks about decapitating and watching a video game character suffer, for no reason. I had seen many like it but decided to give my impression to that type of savage behavior. You then decided to give an extemporaneous reply saying "Just like Jane, right?" When neither I nor KCohere ever said anything about Jane.

                                                Because both of you support Jane in this argument. It was completely relevant to the intent and purpose of the thread. I don't care if it was an aside to what you were personally talking about. I was making a point. Not complicated. Put whatever false intent on it that you want. I have both explained myself and apologized for the way that you received what I said. You refused to accept either.

                                                Are you serious? Playing the victim card because two people are calling you out on your increasingly tenuous viewpoints?

                                                Go back and read your first post please. And again, I was only defending the guy. I couldn't care less about playing the victim card. Just trying to help everyone understand.

                                                Plus you're obviously garnering more support than me, seeing as though your comments have well more likes than mine.

                                                So that means I should just let myself get run over?

                                                ...Now, please stop.

                                                Feel free.

                                          • There isn't much of an argument, far as I can tell, and I was just giving my opinion on it. I find it funny, and whether or not that's helpful doesn't much matter, because like I said, there isn't much of an argument. Besides, this "argument" has strayed far from the original topic of the thread anyways, and if anything isn't helpful it's that.

    • If you behead her how can she suffer? Oh, right. And when Kenny stabs her no one makes sure she doesn't come back, so she'll suffer anyway.

  • I'll lay it on the line. The fight was bait. Jane wanted Kenny to try to kill her. It was solely reliant on that. She didn't run away, she didn't tell Kenny the baby was alive, she didn't run because it would reveal her ultimate plan. When she apologized, she said she was sorry because she didn't expect him to go that far. But it's bullshit. You know why? She's sorry Clementine had to shoot Kenny. Jane thought she could perfectly take on Kenny.

    But you know what? I would still side with Jane 100% of the time.

    • Only the writer's know 100% what Jane's true intentions were.

    • You'd side with her because you're a cold, psychotic cunt. Burn in hell, Jane lover.

    • She wanted him to attack her but I dont think she wanted him to try to kill her. Or maybe she didnt think he would be so adamant about it. Charging like a bull and not stopping to even hear her out.

      • She wasn't trying to have him "hear her out" though. She didn't try to reason with him. All she did was give a very generic and unbelievably contrived "It was an accident" excuse. No parental figure who is convinced that their child has been murdered is going to believe that. When Kenny realistically called B.S. on it, she proceeded to threaten him instead of taking the time to rationalize what happened. She wasn't sincere or apologetic. Also, when he charged and pinned her to the wall, that really doesn't necessarily = trying to kill her. He was just getting physical with her, which what she wanted. How else should he have fought her..?

        • Jane gave Kenny a very clear chance to stop fighting and ask questions.

          The entire point was to show that Kenny would be so caught up with his violent streak that this would not happen.

          The clear chance I am referencing is at the beginning of the fight, when she says something like "I won't back down from you", and then puts her knife away - indicating a willingness to stop the fight. At which point Kenny charges.

          If Kenny had actually learned anything during season 2. If Kenny had actually meant it, when he kept saying that he was sorry that he flipped out, that he was sorry he scared Clem, if he had meant his promise to Clem - that he would try to be better, then this was the time to prove it.

          Turns out he hadn't learned anything. He was consumed by his wrath, which was exactly the point Jane was trying to make. After that it pretty much devolves into a fight fuelled by bloodlust on both sides.

          • You're expecting him to be calm and rational in a situation where he thinks his adopted baby has been murdered? That is just not realistic at all. Jane was not rationalizing with him, she was not trying to act sincere, she was not trying to act apologetic or upset. All she did was give a ridiculously contrived "It was an accident" excuse. No one in Kenny's position is going to believe that. And no one who is actually being sincere is just going to say "it was an accident" and leave it at that after killing someones kid killed (accident or no accident). Jane was purposely being shady. When Kenny called B.S. Jane responded by threatening him.

            The clear chance I am referencing is at the beginning of the fight, when she says something like "I won't back down from you", and then puts her knife away - indicating a willingness to stop the fight.

            No, she did not want to prevent a fight there. That wouldn't make any sense. Her whole plan was to get a violent reaction out of Kenny. If Kenny had listened to her when she told him to back down, he would have completely proven her wrong. If she ended the situation there she would have proven basically nothing, and she would have had to reveal the sick plan she was trying to pull. It would be very bad for her. She put the knife away because she saw that Kenny wasn't going to try anything while she had it out.

            Turns out he hadn't learned anything. He was consumed by his wrath, which was exactly the point Jane was trying to make.

            Thinks his kid has been murdered, gets consumed by wrath. How completely unprecedented of him..

            Joking, of course.

            • Since it seems like you're being combated at every turn, I dedicate this post to telling you I agree with you on everything I've read to this point. Keep up the good work.

            • If she didn't want to prevent a fight, then it was a really dumb move to put away her knife and let Kenny have the initiative.

              All I'm trying to point out is that Kenny has had no growth during the season - at least not positive.

              My entire point is that

              Thinks his kid has been murdered, gets consumed by wrath. How completely unprecedented of him..

              This is why he's a dangerous menace. IF he had learned from his previous mistakes - if he cared at all about what Clem thinks of him, as he claims he does (hence promising to do better) - then he would have taken the opportunity to figure out the situation. But you're right it is completely in keeping with his character to hurt/kill first, then pretend to feel bad later.

              • Yes and Irak was about weapons of mass destruction , not oil right ?

                • Because... the US sailed their boats to Iraq and were then turning them around telling Saddam, "We wont back down", at which point Saddam threw missiles at the boats??

                  I fail to see the relevance.

                  Jane wishes to show Kenny as a reckless violent bully. She succeeded. She did not start the physical violence -and after Kenny started it, she gave him a chance to calm down, but still Kenny came at her.

                  He was a reckless violent bully, and Clem is better off without him, just as season 2 would have been.

            • Kenny was willing to kill over an accident. This was what she was trying to show. Kenny no longer even tried to listen to logic and reasoning and responded to every situation with violence like Carver did.

              • Kenny risked life and limb for that baby, and Jane just turns up without it? Showing up without that baby is a death sentence, if Kenny's there. Two words, she just had to blurt out, "He's alive." She could have said that before the fight got out of hand. I didn't want Jane to die, I liked her as a character. But I wasn't willing to let Kenny die over a lie.

  • Yes Jane is baiting but don't forget Kenny threw the first punch. Secondly she pulls her knife just in self defense and than a few seconds later puts it away again because she doesn't want to kill him. Kenny won't have that and charges in again. The only reason she is now locked into killing Kenny is that in her mind her fears have come true and Kenny lost it and is now trying to kill her and is a danger to Clem.

    I honestly believe that Jane would have been happier if the fight didn't happen. Sure she would have alienated herself from the two of them by revealing that the whole thing was a ploy to see how far kenny would go. But it would also mean to her that Kenny isn't the person she thought he is and clem is safe.

    • I don't care if she was "out for blood". Kenny is insane and next episode Clem will regret not shooting his psycho redneck brains out. I respect jane more than I do Kenny any day. That guy should've died in that alley with Ben. Would've Ben more fitting for him.

      • Kenny isn't insane he is broken and needs all the help he can get.

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          ErenCoral BANNED

          ... Which means he is more of a burden than the baby which is why I chose to go with Jane.

          • HE ISN'T A FUCKING BURDEN. HE LED THEM TO FUCKING WELLINGTON FOR FUCKS SAKE.

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              ErenCoral BANNED

              Okay Jane took Clem and AJ to Howes which is much safer than Wellington. Wellington is basically a bell that attracts everything from bandits to walkers. Howes has food AND baby formula. Jane is smarter and better than Kenny. Kenny sucks balls and he got Lee killed. End of story

              • "Kenny sucks balls."

                Funniest thing I've seen all day.

                KennySucksBallsConfirmedForSeason3

              • lee died because of clementine, so don't lie

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                  ErenCoral BANNED

                  Haha, you make me laugh.

                  The stranger wouldn't have taken Clementine in the first place if Kenny didn't steal his supplies. Kenny caused Lee's death and you know it.

                  • In my game i chose to take the supplies and tell clem that we need them so is was their own fault

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                      ErenCoral BANNED

                      But Kenny was the one who suggested it in the first place. So it was both Kenny and Lee's fault in your gameplay.

                      • So whats your point , they saw supplies... they didn't have supplies the car looked like the poeple had to go really quickly chances were great that they were already dead

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                          ErenCoral BANNED

                          My point is that the car didn't look abandoned, and Kenny didn't care if there were people who owned this car or not. He took the supplies for him and his family and didn't care about other people. See the selfishness in that?

                          • You make it sound like Kenny got Lee killed intentionally, which is certainly not the case. Yes, the fact Kenny took those supplies is selfish towards the people who owned the car, and not morally right, but guess what? It's a zombie apocalypse, a world that's wither kill or be killed. He was looking out for the group to make sure they still had supplies, you'll probably remember that one of the main plot points in Episode 2 is that they were very low on supplies, so the abandoned car was a dream come true for the group. The choices were either take the supplies, and risk the possibility of other people suffering due to that act, or abandon them and risk the certainty that the group may starve out because of that. Both choices were morally wrong, because both carried the risk of people dying. Logically, taking the supplies was the lesser of two evils, and in an apocalypse, you have to think logically to survive.

                          • It's easy to have hindsight and look back on what we have done and think about what we should have done. But it was either take those supplies, or starve to death. It's easy to take the moral highground and say you wouldn't take those supplies, but if you had potentially gone days without eating, and your food was about to run out; would you really leave those supplies?

                            How was Kenny meant to know that would lead to Lee's death? And still, it was Clementine/The Stranger's fault.

              • Yes, Kenny got Lee killed. He also happens to be the one who caused the Zombie Apocalypse and the Dark Ages, right? And that whole business of the First World War is obviously his fault as well.

                Seriously, some people blame Kenny for literally every bad thing that happens in the game regardless of if it was his fault or not. That's just insane. He's responsible for his fair share of bad shit, but some people blow it way out of proportion.

                • Kenny didn't kill lee, and he didn't cause the fall of Rome.
                  But I do blame kenny for being a coward, constantly igniting tension with every possible character, never thinking anything through or rethinking plans when they are obviously flawed or folly, abandoning Lee, Clem, Omid, and Christa in season 1 episode 5, beating up a child (Arvo), and killing an extremely useful and resourceful character (Jane)

                  the only thing I give kenny credit for is, getting the motor home running in season 1, and he took his sweet time doing that.

            • Wellington was a hell of a gamble. Nobody knew it existed! So of course people would be reluctend to go with a kid and a baby in the group when there is a place that has food and can be barricaded just a few hours away.

            • Metagaming at its finest. When playing the game all I had to go on was how Kenny was behaving. Hey look something else Kenny is obsessed about. Wellington was just another boat for all I knew.

              • Kenny has a way of becoming obsessed with plans

                Wellington is about as equal to shitty plan 4.0

              • Pardon me, sir, but the boat was a pretty sensible idea. And Christa also thought that Wellington was their best bet. Just saying.

                • The boat was not sensible. What the heck comes after the "get a boat" part of the plan?

                  • Lee: "Hey Kenny maybe we should talk about our plans
                  • Kenny: "There is no plan. We get a boat."
                  • Christa: "Get a boat and do what?"
                  • Kenny: "We get a boat.

                  His obession and irrationality again with Wellington. Honestly he got really lucky with Wellington. In my playthrough I remember Kenny's behavior with the boat and I didn't want to risk Clem and AJ for another stupid really unlikely thing to happen.

                  • Mike: "Guys we really need to think of a plan"
                  • Kenny: "Plan, what plan? We're going to Wellington
                  • I didn't say anything about the rest of the plan. I only stated that it made some amount of sense to get one. And I don't really see why Kenny should be solely responsible for coming up with a plan for what to do afterward.

                    • Its been how long since zombies started? He acts like he's the only one who ever thought of getting a boat. Everyone had thought about boat from the start I'm sure. Anyone who had a boat was going to get out in that water. Anyone who couldn't was dead. The luck of the draw they found a boat not being used or trashed.

                      It would've been a brilliant plan if it was the very start of zombies... But months later?

                      Besides my point is not the boat plan itself. Its Kenny's obsession with the boat plan. Kenny stubbornly thinks of something and anyone who doesn't fall in line with that is his enemy.

            • He is a burden. leading Clem and AJ to wellington was simple good luck, and them taking the kids was a B.S. Move on telltale's part. If Wellington truly was as overpopulated as they say... there is no way that they would've taken anyone. especially not unproductive mouths to feed.

              regardless... Kenny and Jane are both goners in season 3 episode 1. just like poor old Omid.

        • well I hope you don't mind more people dying to "help" Kenny stop being insane. how many people do you think he'll need to kill before he feels better?

      • I'd say he's unhinged not "insane". I think there's hope for him to heal and come back if given the time. An insane person can't really come back. They are what they are, but someone who's unhinged or broken can heal. I have hope for Kenny. That's why I chose to stick with him.

        • so you'd rather run around with an unhinged person, that beats up kids, and kills useful members of the company because he is "unhinged", and he may or may not ever "heal and come back" and even if he did... he would still be a total obstinate jerk like he was in season 1. no way, I stuck with Jane, she at least tries, and when she abandoned clem, she came back. unlike kenny, who abandoned her and ran. (season1ep5)

    • so she drew the first weapon

      • She drew it after kenny tried to punch her. She didn't draw that weapon in order to attack him instantly. It was more like message. Signaling Kenny that she was prepared to go all out if she has to.

    • It doesn't matter who did what...or who did this first...both sides are correct...because there are so many endings....everyone comes out happy.....the end.

  • In my game (all other games are irrelevant) Jane puts the knife away and then Kenny charges in like a bull. Both were going for a kill imo, I only kept Jane alive because I did not want to leave Clem alone, I have lost faith in her though and will toss her aside if I ever get the chance.

  • sigh more of this now.

  • what i find pretty funny is that jane thought she could take kenny because he's old and then kenny wrecked her lmao

    • Kenny is the strongest character in TWD, physical strength wise. I think he is stronger than younger guys like Luke and Mike.

      • I think Lee is the strongest in TWD he can strangle a guy to death with one arm and bitten....

        and also...

        Alt text

        Alt text

        KENNY CONFIRMED FOR SEASON 3!! .....maybe

      • User Avatar Image
        ErenCoral BANNED

        Lee, Larry, Molly, VERNON and his group beat his ass up in season 1. I think Kenny overpowering Jane was just made for the sake of the story. Jane could've overpowered Kenny seeing as Molly kicked his ass in season 1 and he was stronger in season 1.

        • pretty sure kennys combat skills could've improved over two years... he almost beat up mike in episode 3 and mike was shown to be pretty strong lol

          • I don't think Mike was looking to fight back; he just wanted to get back to work so they didn't get in trouble with Carver or Troy, or possibly get devoured by walkers, since they were supposed to be securing the building. Kenny shoving Mike against the window loosens a board and lets walkers in.

        • I was talking about season 2. Pretty sure Kenny is stronger after 2 years surviving the tough world of the apocalypse. Lee was stronger but he's dead which makes Kenny the strongest.

    • I think she was banking on his one eye causing him some depth perception issues. He would be at quite a disadvantage with only one eye, but yeah, he's ultimately got more fire in the belly (and he's a man, which is can be a big advantage in hand-to-hand combat if the woman doesn't have some serious upper-body strength), so he was always going to win. Lol.

      • User Avatar Image
        ErenCoral BANNED

        She popped both of his eyes, he should be blind now. Plus she slashed his belly, his intestine and stomach should fall out of his belly. Im pretty sure Jane would've won.

        • And THIS is the best ??? psycho...

          • User Avatar Image
            ErenCoral BANNED

            What the hell, I never said that -_- The other guy said that Jane didn't stand a chance against Kenny and I told him that she popped both of his eyes which should've blinded him and slashed his belly which should've made his organs fall out of his body.

            • I'm sure you know this, but... Being slashed with a knife in the lower abdomen doesn't mean that all your organs will turn into jello and slide out of the wound.

              But let me draw it out for you.

              In this picture, I drew a line about where kenny got cut, keeping in mind the average length of a hunting knife (6.5 inches), and of course, the angle at which she sliced;

              Alt text

              So, with this In mind, I added a similar cut-line on a anatomically-accurate image of the internal organs;

              Alt text

              As you can see, the only organs that would be in danger would be his small intestine, and, if Jane was a little to the side with her slice, his colon as well.

              And like I said, the slice was really thin. So, even if she had cut deep, his small intestine may have jutted out a bit, but it wouldn't have just changed in mass and volume and slid out like you said.

              Not only that, but the wound wasn't deep at all. Definitely not 3 inches deep, which is approximately how deep the small intestine and colon are beneath the skin and flesh.

              All in all, myth=Busted.

              • User Avatar Image
                ErenCoral BANNED

                Hm okay maybe you are right, but she still popped both of his eyes so he should be blind.

              • The WHOLE fight in itself was unrealistic.

                Kenny, I'd would say is between 165lbs-200lbs. And he's shown himself to be a strong guy. Back at the drugstore, Kenny helped lift a door off Lee, that had at least two walkers on top of it. Back at Crawford, Kenny was able break the door open to Crawford's armoury; that sealed up tight, and before that was seen runing back into the school with a couple of sizable gas cans in each hand. And when Kenny lunged at Ben, it took two grown men to restrain him. And back at Carver's he had Mike, who was also a powerful man, pinned against a wall so hard that Mike couldn't even move.

                Jane on the other hand, was maybe only 125lbs at best. So just based on size alone, Jane didn't stand a chance.

                • Weight/being physically strong doesn't always mean that you're stronger than your opponent. There are too many factors. Molly can take him down easily, for example, and she probably weighs the same, or a bit more, than Jane.

                  Kenny is strong though, I won't deny that.

                  • The only reason Molly beat Kenny, is because she knocked his legs out from under him. Plus, during that whole 1st season, it was clear Kenny wasn't a good fighter.

                    And you're right, size doesn't always greater strength. However, don't ever think a big person isn't strong, nor that he couldn't seriously hurt someone in a fight. Not that Kenny is an overly big guy, probably no more than average height, but you get the point.

                    • Lol, as much as I agree with you, didn't you just counter your own argument? Most of the examples you said of kenny being a strong man were from season 1, and now you said "Plus, during that whole 1st season, it was clear Kenny wasn't a good fighter." Lol

              • Reminds me of Georgie Porgie.

              • he was wearing a jacket a thick jacket at that ....

    • Little Molly took him down so I wouldnt have been surprised.

  • For christ sake another one of these threads! Can the mods please start closing/deleting them. We don't need 30 threads a day on the same subject by those hopelessly trying to find conviction for their actions in the game.

  • Their all scared of Kenny because he killed Carver in the same way that Carver would have done to him

  • This thread is kinda weak and boring. I need a certain person here. Easy to guess who exactly I mean.

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