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*Civil* Character Discussion for Kenny/Jane choice: The Megathread - Discussion only goes here now

posted by Blind Sniper on - last edited - Viewed by 14.6K users

Walking Dead Episode 205: No Going Back

Official Megathread for civil Character Discussion

Pizza/Ice Cream discussion only goes here now, and old threads will be locked (and will not be merged unless they are already civil). Please report other threads using the Flag button so we can close them.

The other moderators and I have noticed that - as of lately - the forums are being placed into a heated, passionate debate about the choice you made in Episode 205. Initially, we chose not to intervene when people got upset at insults against fictional characters as they are just that - fictional. However, upon looking over the state of the forums as of lately, it appears things could be better.

Because of that, I'm creating a central thread where people can discuss the "Pizza/Ice Cream" choice players made in Episode 205 in a thread that will have less toleration of character insults made to provoke forum drama. Normally, I would choose to merge all the currently existing threads into this one large thread. However, the currently existing threads are filled with drama over users disagreeing with how they view other characters, and this new thread is intended to purge the forums of the drama while still allowing you to discuss the choice. I'm choosing to add new rules to this particular thread to prevent forum drama from spreading further. Because I cannot apply new rules to retroactive posts, I'm instead choosing to make this thread a new start for the Pizza/Ice Cream choice discussion.

If you see a post breaking one of these guidelines for maintaining civil discussion about the choice in this particular thread, report it using the Flag button at the upper righthand corner of a post. Since this megathread is being made, new threads discussing the character aspect of the choice will be locked, so please report new threads as well.

Maintaining Civil Discussion:

  1. Criticism of characters is allowed, but insults and exaggerations of characters are not as they prevent civil discussion. If you criticize a character, back it up with why you believe that criticism is valid.
  2. Refrain from posts that refer to an ending objectively being better over another ending - or posts that insinuate an ending is "wrong" or "right."
  3. Memes, Gifs, Images, etc of Character deaths that are posted mockingly do not allow for civil discussion. Refrain from posting them.
  4. In addition to the rules specifically for this thread, the forum guidelines still apply here as well. Please conduct respectful and civil discussion.
  • Thread: To whomever it may concern (so probably most forum members)

    I believe in people having a right to express their opinion on a subject and since just about everyone else had already added their input I figured it was the time for me to add my part.

    I have seen both sides of the argument, read MANY people's opinions and in the end this helped me create my own (you should always have your own opinion BUT be open to what others think and accept fair and constructive criticism)

    It is clear to me that some people can not and will not change their mind about this particular subject but I have this to say first:

    Jane manipulated Clementine (and a whole lot of players for that matter) into killing Kenny.

    You cannot deny this by saying that you didn't shoot him, because it doesn't change anything about the fact that most people did it anyway.

    Now the moral implications of doing either of those are presented:

    Do you let Kenny, someone who obviously is capable of going to extreme lengths to protect Clementine and AJ, kill Jane?

    Or do you shoot Kenny? To save Jane from a fight she started, could probably end before it escalated further by saying AJ is okay and specifically told you to stay out of.

    The decision is as always up to you, but I would be lying if I said that I didn't have to rewind my first "canon" playthrough simply because I just couldn't live with what I had done. I even have this as my desktop background to remind me of it every time I look at it.

    Now feel free to disagree with me on this, but in my honest opinion, ALL things considered, you shouldn't shoot Kenny, even though it means letting him kill Jane. There are many things to consider when doing this such as: Is Wellington safe? Can you stay with Kenny and be sure it will work? Is going alone with AJ really a good option? Would going back with Jane to Hove's turn out to be a good idea? Can you trust that family enough to let them stay with you? Or did turning this family away mean they are going to want revenge?

    The problem here is simple, we just don't know and as Lee mentioned sometimes there just isn't a right answer, it is only up to you to decide what is right for YOUR Clementine.


    Who should be the protagonist for Season 3?

    I feel the need to address this issue as well, now I get it some people want to play as someone other than Clementine for different reasons, the biggest problem being that there are 5 endings (actually 7, the alone ending has 3 variations) and Telltale would have to somehow tie it all together without making our choices seem pointless. One idea was to have an alternate beginning to S3 EP1 based on your ending and then having them join together at a certain point into one storyline.

    A different idea was based on having a DLC before Season 3 is released, that resolves this by having Clementine eventually arrive at the same place (perhaps a town, settlement or just a landmark or whatever) but having a different journey there based on your ending. Nevertheless I think that Clementine's story shouldn't end just yet, there is still so much potential for her character and not continuing her story would feel like a waste to me honestly.

    I also want you to realise that the majority of people want to have Clementine as the protagonist for Season 3, that is based on this poll and this questionnaire . Even though Telltale are probably going to do what they want, it is pretty likely that they will gravitate towards what the majority wants when deciding.

    TL:DR version: People are entitled to their own opinion, but I believe that you shouldn't kill Kenny and that Clementine should be the Season 3 protagonist.

  • " TL:DR version: People are entitled to their own opinion, but I believe that you shouldn't kill Kenny and that Clementine should be the Season 3 protagonist. "

    Alt text

  • TL:DR version: People are entitled to their own opinion, but I believe that you shouldn't kill Kenny and that Clementine should be the Season 3 protagonist.

    I agree with the first half of that I love Kenny and also think he is the right choice, but not so sure about the second half.I have nothing against and will still buy it if Clementine is the protagonist, but I would prefer a new protagonist. Like you said just my opinion though. :P

    • I think that we should be able to create our own protagonist, give them a name, have the voice actors voice a bunch of different names so you can choose from them. Have your character pick an age, and outfit and a personality. It would be a lot of work but it would be totally worth it :p

  • That is actually a very well explained opinion, but i still have to disagree with it. What Jane did was wrong, and as much as i love Kenny i couldnt let him kill an innocent person, so in my mind, killing Kenny stopped him from becoming a murderer, he even tells you that you made the Right choice if you kill him, but thats just My opinion

    • Well you see the problem here is that Kenny says that you have made the right choice even if you decide to leave him after he kills Jane, you even have the option to kill Kenny AFTER he kills Jane and if you do that all he says is "Do it. Just... just do it". In the end Kenny basically agrees with anything YOUR Clementine decides to do. Also one could say that Kenny technically already is a murderer, he kills Larry without even trying to revive him and he also implies that Lee should drop Ben at the bell tower.

      • yeah i know, but the other times, him agreeing with Clem just feels... misplaced, letting Clem go with the baby seems like something Kenny would never do, atleast not without a very heated discussion, and the "just do it" shooting in the head, was probably just because he couldnt do it himself, which he already stated back in s1 ep5. The killing Larry thing was a dick move, but he did it with good intentions, he should have waited a little longer, but there was no one, who could know if he would survive or die. The implying to let Ben die, was an asshole move, But if he had killed my wife and child, i think i would be kinda pissed too. Theres a big difference between those two things, and killing an (arguably) okay person, of what Kenny (at the time) knew was an accident, im not saying what Jane did was right, that was a physcho move, but getting killed for it is not right, so even though i love Kenny a LOT!!! more than i like Jane, i chose to shoot him, if it had been Jane i would have shot her too, so its nothing about me liking her more (i left without her), it was simply out of humanity. this is just my opinion, so please dont feel offended :)

        • Killing Larry was not a "dick move", he was a piece of shit and if anyone is a "dick" it's Larry. He was gonna do the same exact thing to Duck, a little boy who they could easily handle if he turned into a walker, and they were in a huge pharmacy not a small space like the meat locker. And he tried to kill Lee and promised to kill Lee with no hesitation if he thought he would turn, and he just caused so many unnecessary drama and problems within the group, you know how old people are, they're a fucking burden now, especially with the problems they have and they would be even worse in a ZA. Why does scum like Larry deserve saving? What is the purpose of keeping him around? He got exactly what he deserved.

  • My Clem would've shot Kenny in a heartbeat. My Lee never got along with Kenny at all. Kenny was nothing but a jerk to my Lee from the start because he tried to save Hershel's son instead of Kenny's brat (a 20-something man is far more useful in the apocalypse then a mentally limited schoolboy..) My Lee also wasn't a d-bag, so he didn't kill Larry, he didn't abandon Lilly, and he didn't drop Ben to his death. So, Kenny refused to help my Lee search for Clem, after some BS about being a Christian man, blah, blah.

    Anyway, my Clem therefore had no reason to like Kenny at all. She didn't hug him, she didn't sit with him, she never took his side, and she never said she trusted him or believed him about anything. Oh, and she definitely never forgave him for being such an a-hole about the whole Sarita thing. Basically, Kenny's resurrection ruined Season 2 for me. The game never really acknowledged any of my choices except for some bit where Kenny whines about me not sitting with him or siding with him, when he apologizes for what a jackass he was over Sarita (and my Clem would've told him to eff off).

    Now, I get it that many other people were really attached to Kenny. I don't have any problem if that's how they played their Lee and their Clem. But, if TT is going to give you the option to develop a certain type of relationship with someone, then it should mean something. When it doesn't, and they keep trying to force it in a certain direction, it just turns me off to the whole game.

    So, my only issue with the shooting decision is that my Clem would shoot Kenny in the head for sure. Not only to make sure he doesn't turn, but to make sure he can't get "lucky, real lucky" ever again. Sorry, but I just had to vent and your thread happened to be there for me. :)

    • Not judging you, but i just cant understand why anyone whould wanna pick an adult over a child, even if the adult is more helpful

    • You sound like a real dumbass if you let Lily stay with you after she just murdered someone in your group out of anger, how could you stay and trust someone after that? And I bet you didn't mind when she just completely betrayed and abandoned by stealing the RV leaving all of you stranded. And killing Larry isn't being a "d-bag", he was scum and deserved worse, he's lucky he got a quick, painless death.

  • I didn't even think Jane was trying to manipulate me, as soon as Kenny left and she told me not to get involved I thought, oh the baby is alive, and I shot Kenny anyway.

  • Thread: Analysis: Kenny and Jane fight.

    SPOILERS Edit: Added Jane's dialogue after the fight and my thoughts on them 9-2-14 Edit: Added a "Other thoughts" section 9-7-14, which I might update again at some time.

    Ok, so I want to give my analysis on the choice that has caused so much debate in episode 5. Whether to kill Kenny or look away and let Kenny kill Jane. I want to approach this on a morally objective viewpoint. So my choice will not be based upon an emotional bias of liking/disliking Kenny/Jane over the other. My analysis will be limited to just the fight scene and the scene with AJ in the car shortly after the fight ends. So let's begin...

    When Jane comes back without the baby it becomes clear to both Kenny and Clementine that something has happened to the baby. Kenny is in denial that the baby is dead so he leaves to find the baby. It's at this point that Jane says something that is vital to our final decision.

    Jane: No matter what happens, stay out of it.

    A red flag immediately arises when she says to stay out of "it". Obviously, she intends to get into a fight with Kenny. But to what extent and for what purpose is unknown just yet. Now no matter which choice you make at this point Jane responds the same way.

    Jane: You have to trust me. You’re gonna see what he really is.

    Now, for me at least, this revealed to me that Jane was lying to Clem and Kenny about the baby. And the reason for this was clear: she wanted to show Clem Kenny’s irrational anger and violence to its breaking point. This made me realize that this was Jane's responsibility and that whatever happens next was her doing, her manipulation of events. And hence, Jane was right, Clem should stay out of this, as she wished her to. At this point you have a choice to make, which really does nothing to stop the inevitable fight. Either choice, you are pushed away by Kenny and he throws a punch at Jane, which she evades and takes out her knife. The dialogue, of course reveals Kenny's thoughts and Jane's "justification" over the baby's supposed death.

    Kenny: How could you kill a child.

    Jane: I didn’t kill him. It was an ACCIDENT, Kenny.

    Kenny: Bullsh---

    Jane: I won’t back down from you, Kenny...I’m warning you.

    Kenny believes Jane has killed the child, yet Jane claims that the baby's death is an accident. Now, I as a player don’t know whether to believe her, seeing as Jane has shown in the past her reluctance to accept AJ or even care about AJ. She even showed “concern” over Clem getting too close to AJ. But whatever the case, Jane has made it clear she will not back down and takes out her knife just to provoke Kenny to attack her. Now, you are given a few choices at this point. All of which reveals that both Kenny and Jane will not listen to Clem’s plea to reason, Kenny will not let Jane explain herself, and Jane views Kenny as "crazy". But both nonetheless will not back down and each of them tell Clem to "stay back" and "stay out of it". Jane then slowly puts her knife back into the holster. This of course shows me that Jane wants Clem to see Kenny attack her with her knife shiethed as she has planned all along.

    I should note at this point that Clem DOES NOT HAVE TO INTERFERE IN THE FIGHT, at least not physically anyways. And of course you can stay silent all the way through.

    At this point Kenny and Jane begin to struggle, and then it leads to Jane slashing Kenny's stomach almost to the point of being fatal, which makes Kenny retreat outside. Now, if this was all Jane's scheme to prove to Clem that Kenny is too irrational and violent to be with, then it would seem reasonable to stop the fight here and tell the truth, but Jane goes on the offensive to kill Kenny as she screams "THIS IS ALL YOUR F-ing FAULT". I would agree with Jane that it was Kenny’s fault for overreacting and attacking her, but again, this whole event was Jane's own doing because she knew very well that this is what would happen, and thus she's also at fault here.

    As Kenny goes on the defensive and Jane goes on the offensive with her knife, Jane calls Kenny a "psycho", but Kenny retorts "THIS IS ON YOU". It is true that Kenny has increasingly become violent and irrationally stubborn, but again this whole situation is still Jane's fault, as she manipulates Kenny into losing control of his senses over AJ's supposed death. A few choices appear before us at this point.

    Clementine can either ask Kenny for everyone to sit down and talk, to which Kenny replies, "Words ain't gonna fix this".

    Or Clementine can tell Jane to back off, to which Jane completely abandons her plan and reveals her intent to kill Kenny by saying "No, Clem. It's time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery".

    Or she can reason with both, pointing out that they’re going to kill each other, to which both of them ignore her.

    Or she can get between both Kenny and Jane and she can either hold Jane back and tell her to run, to which she refuses and pushes her down to the ground. Or she can hold Kenny back and tell him to stop, to which he refuses and pushes her down to the ground.

    It becomes clear at this point that nothing you say will stop them from fighting as both of them have bloodlust in their eyes. Jane strikes at Kenny, but he flips her over and both fall to the ground. Jane quickly grabs Kenny's injured eye and begins stabbing her fingers into it. Kenny gets her off either by biting Jane's thumb or by Clem's help and quickly grabs the knife and stabs Jane on her leg, pushing Clem back onto the ground and reopening her bullet wound. Now the moment of truth arrives. You can either honor both Jane's and Kenny's wish to not get involved by not picking up the gun and letting whatever happens happen. Or you can pick up the gun. Of course, by doing this Jane takes notice and asks for your help.

    Jane:! (It should be noted that she never says this if you don’t pick up the gun.)

    Now obviously, this whole situation is made by Jane to look like Kenny is the one who started the fight and that she is the victim in all this, but if you were rightly suspicious of Jane, you would clearly know that Jane played on Kenny’s emotions and pushed the situation too far that now they were at the point of wanting to killing each other. What's worse, now that Jane is asking for Clem’s help at this critical point against her previous wish for Clem to "stay out of it", Clem is essentially being asked to kill her old friend over something that Jane got herself into in the first place. The choice is clear. Jane was ultimately responsible for all of this, it was her scheme to provoke Kenny, it was her manipulation of Kenny’s already unstable emotions, it was her doing to get Kenny past the breaking point, and this is exactly what she wanted to happen, especially now that she wanted to kill Kenny against her original plan to just reveal Kenny's violent self. Therefore, both Jane and Kenny should be the one to deal with the consequences, not Clementine. Hence, either you don't pick up the gun, or you look away.

    Now let's move on to Kenny's justification for killing Jane after realizing that AJ was alive all along.

    When Clem tells Kenny that he didn’t have to kill Jane, he responds by saying "It was me or her, Clem. She was trying to kill me too. If she hadn't lied about Alvin here, it wouldn't have gone that far."

    Kenny makes two valid point. That Jane was certainly intending to kill Kenny at the end, though not at first. And that if Jane hadn't lied, this whole drama would not have happened, and she wouldn't have died.

    When Clem says that she thought Jane had killed AJ, Kenny says, "I was thinking the same thing, Clem. It’s why I was so fired up. She never wanted the baby around. She made that clear."

    In this dialogue, Kenny admits that he did lose his senses because he believed Jane had killed AJ. As for his second point, he's right that Jane never wanted the baby around. If Clem had not have had such a close relationship with AJ, Jane would not have cared at all about the baby, especially since she kept referring to AJ as "it".

    When Clem asks why Jane would lie about the baby, Kenny replies "She was nut’s Clem. A disturbed person that had her own agenda and was looking out for herself".

    I can agree with Kenny that Jane was not thinking straight when she planned this. And she certainly had her own agenda. However, Jane wasn’t entirely looking out for herself, as she did do this for Clem, admittedly against Clem’s wishes, and therefore, serving Jane’s own selfish desire to keep Clem to herself. And I did have this feeling that Jane's attraction to Clem was more of a sister-complex rather than a real sisterly love. Jane was disturbed in that she saw in Clem everything that her sister Jaime wasn't, and therefore, became overly protective of Clem in that she went so far as to get Kenny out of the way.

    Kenny goes on to explain, "Hey listen I didn’t want that to happen either. I thought she killed Alvie, Clem. And at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine. She wanted a fight. I'd never, ever hurt you. You understand! I was protecting you. You believe me right? Just imagining what she did to Alvie, everything just went black. By the time I got my head straight. It was to late."

    Kenny is right, Jane had every opportunity to stop the fight and tell the truth, especially since she proved her point and should have let Clem decide there and then whether to stay with Kenny or leave him. But it became clear that she wanted not only a fight, but Kenny’s death. Again, Kenny admits that he lost his marbles when he believed Jane had killed AJ. And it was his constant thought of what Jane might have done to AJ that fueled him to kill her, something which Jane herself could have stopped if she told the truth “at any point” of the fight, to use Kenny's words.

    Next, when Clem points out that Kenny is dangerous, Kenny responds, "You're right Clem. But I'm trying to change. I'm workin' on it. Something broke inside me a long time ago and I've just been trying to hold it together. But I'm doing my best. I really am."

    There's a saying "Crazy people don’t know they're crazy". In Kenny’s case, he knew that his violent and arrogant behavior was "crazy", but he himself was not a psychotic person; he still realized his mistakes and even promised to not be so violent. Hence, his statement "I'm trying to change. I'm workin' on it."

    And when it came to Clem, he never physically abused her, or lied to her. He even apologized for yelling at her over Sarita's death, recognizing that he went too far and that Clem did her best to help Sarita. Despite his flaws, he nevertheless loved Clem as if she was his own daughter and was loyal to her to the point of getting beat up by Carver to protect her. And though he may have been verbally controlling at times, he nonetheless respected Clem’s choices. Kenny has gone through so much and tried his best to hold on to his sanity, and for Jane to ruin all his progress just to have Clem for herself is just immoral on so many levels. As Clem said to Kenny, "You were right about her. She was unstable. Always just looking out for herself."

    Now let's examine Jane's justification after realizing that AJ is alive. But before I do, I want to give my reasons for why a player would want to choose to shoot Kenny.

    One, the player might have been innocently clueless about Jane's scheme, and therefore, when Kenny was about to kill Jane the player thought that it was morally necessary to stop Kenny, hoping that by shooting Kenny he would not actually die. Two, the player knew of Jane's scheme and did not approve of it, but nonetheless, thought it pragmatically necessary to stop Kenny whom they saw as a threat.

    I can understand players doing it for the first reason, but not for the second. I think those who did it for the second reason were not doing it out of pragmatic necessity, but rather out of fear of what might happen down the road. Essentially, it's not based on practical concerns, but rather irrational theoretical concerns. "Kenny is unstable, so what if Kenny does this or that". It's the kind of mindset that sees the worst in every situation and never gives a chance to anyone because of their distrust of everyone. This is what Jane was thinking, as I will show in my examination of her justification. We begin with Jane’s first dialogue:

    Jane: I understand if you're upset. AJ was never in any danger. I was just...going to try to talk you into coming with me. I just thought if you saw Kenny like that you'd know we would have to leave him. Look Clem, I'm sorry. I didn't think Kenny would go that far. But it's over now, we're safe. We're going to be ok.

    Right from the beginning many red flags appear.

    First, Jane says that AJ was never in any danger. I beg to differ. The moment she left AJ alone in the car in the middle of a snowstorm in order to enact her scheme against Kenny she put AJ in danger. Many things could have gone wrong if her scheme had not worked. For example, Walkers have been known to have the mental capacity to open unlocked doors in both the comic series and the TV series, therefore, putting AJ in danger of being attacked by a nearby walker. Also, one should realize that if the baby had not cried and Jane died without revealing the truth about AJ being alive, then Kenny and Clem would have left without knowing that AJ was in a nearby car, and thus, AJ would really be in danger (Walkers, starvation, freeze to death, etc).

    The next point Jane makes is that she was just "going to talk" to Clem into going with her. Yet, Jane never did such a thing. She failed once in the truck, but she never tried to talk to Clem in the building, Rather, she told her to "stay out of it".

    Third, Jane had proved her point about Kenny being dangerous by showing Clem Kenny's violent reaction. But Jane didn't stop to tell Clem, "See, I told you he was crazy. Leave him Clem". Jane never gave Clem the choice to "leave him". Rather, she wanted Kenny dead as soon as he attacked her. She became just as irrationally violent as Kenny was.

    Fourth, she claims that she "didn't think that Kenny would go that far". But that's a blatant lie. She knew very well that Kenny would go that far. In fact, she wanted it to go that far. Remember when Kenny had Jane pinned down with the knife in his hand,before he was about to kill her Kenny said "I'll kill you", to which Jane responded, "I knew you would". By Jane’s own words, she knew Kenny would try to kill her and wanted it to happen, hoping of course that she would kill him first. Let's move to the next dialogue.

    Clementine: Upset, you’re f---ing crazy. How could you do this?

    Jane: I had to do it, Clem. You saw how he reacted. I had to show you what he was capable of.

    Clementine: So you put AJ in danger, and got my friend killed...just to prove a point.

    Jane: It was a stupid plan. I should have never lied to you. But I thought it was the only way you would see.

    Clem easily saw through Jane's scheme. Yet, Jane defends herself by saying that she "had to do it". But that's not true. She didn't have to do it at all. In fact, earlier on in the truck she was going to apologize and reconcile with Kenny. She said "Kenny, I’m...", but she was immediately interrupted by Kenny's practical concern for diesel as the truck was close to being empty. As soon as Kenny left, she was consumed by her hate for him and irrationally convinced herself there and then that she had to get rid of Kenny, that she "had to do it". Now some might say that Kenny would not accept her apology anyways or was too unstable to be reconciled with. Yet, that also is not true, as we have seen Kenny apologize and reconcile with Clem, as well as feeling sorry for what happened to AJ’s father, Alvin, and thinking highly of him. He even felt remorse over beating up Arvo. Point is: Kenny is able to be reconciled with. Jane however, saw the worst in Kenny, and therefore, didn’t want to reconcile with him.

    Second, Jane recognizes that her plan was foolish and that she shouldn't have lied to Clem. Here, she admits that this was her responsibility, and she feels sorry that Clem was forced to kill Kenny because of her deception.

    Third, Jane also admits that she was wrong in thinking that this was the only way for Clem to realize that Kenny was too violent to be around. Let's move to the next dialogue.

    Clem: I don’t understand.

    Jane: Kenny, was dangerous, and I needed you to see that. One way or another.

    In this dialogue, as opposed to the first, Jane shows no remorse over what she did, but is instead emphatic in her belief that Kenny was too dangerous and needed to be put down. But of course, we know from the first dialogue that this is not true. If Kenny was dangerous, then Jane too is dangerous to be around as she herself has been shown to be anti-social, trusts no one, abandons the group (who returns only for her affection of Clem), and is manipulative in order to achieve what she wants to the detriment of others. But I must point out that she has been shown to be redeemable of these flaws. The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws. Let's move to the next dialogue.

    Clementine: Oh my God! Kenny!

    Jane: You have to forgive me, please. We can just leave all this behind us. Please, I did it for you Clem. For us. We're free now.

    Clementine: I'm not going anywhere with you.

    Jane: Clem, please. I did this for you....I can’t do this alone. Ok?! Is that what you want to here?

    In this dialogue, Jane says she did this for Clem, but as I have already pointed out a few times already, she did this for herself. She did this for her selfish desire to have Clem.

    Jane also claims that she and Clem are "free now". While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him and he also was open to follow other people's direction if that is what the group wanted (few examples: whether to let Rebecca rest awhile or leave in the morning, or when the group decided to go to Arvo's place). Jane on the other hand, has been trying to make Clem see the world from a hopeless, untrusting, everyone for themselves, lone wolf perspective. Jane’s false charge that Clem was not "free" with Kenny is groundless.

    Finally, Jane reveals her selfish nature when she says, "I can't do this alone. Ok?! Is that what you want to here?". Apparently, she never really meant it that she "can't do this alone" because she asked Clem if that's what she wanted to hear. Jane would say anything to get Clem on her side. But at this point it's too late, Clem leaves Jane, knowing that she can't be trusted.

    But now let's look at what Clem says if you forgive Jane.

    Clementine: You were right about Kenny...all knew what he was going to do.

    Clem has apparently contradicted Jane when she says, "you knew what he was going to do". Jane earlier had said that she "didn't think Kenny would go that far". A blatant lie, of course, as I have already shown above. But in Clem's dialogue, she believed that Jane "knew what he was going to do", contradicting Jane's lie.

    Though I can't help but feel that this dialogue seems out of place. I imagine that those players who forgave Jane didn't want Clem to also agree with Jane’s logic by saying this. This should have been a separate choice.

    One last thing, I know some will charge me as a Kenny fanboy, but I'm not (though I guess my avatar isn't helping me, LOL. I don't know how to import my own pic

  • So my choice will not be based upon an emotional bias of liking/disliking Kenny/Jane over the other.

    Uh, yeah no. You are clearly a Kenny fan, my friend. If you really wanted this to have no bias you wouldn't have sided with one or the other at all in this post, but you couldn't even wait to defend Kenny before you got to the end of your post. I noticed also how you took into account all the dialogue that Kenny said after the fight, but none of the dialogue that Jane said. This isn't an analysis; it's a defense of Kenny's actions in the fight. When considering Kenny's dialogue when you're at the car, you're mostly looking at Kenny's explanation of what Jane did, not an unbiased explanation of what Jane did.

    Update: Thank you for including Jane's dialogue. However you're still not being unbiased as you're not looking at it from Jane's perspective. You interpret her lines always assuming the worst from her, and that's not fair. See my longer post below.

    • If you actually read my analysis, i never once sided with Kenny because he was a likable character nor that I disliked Jane's character. In fact, I liked them both and saw them both as redeemable. I really wished I could have saved them both. I judged my decision solely on Kenny's and Jane's actions and motivations and went on to Kenny's justification in order to reinforce what i had already suspected about the fight. And yes, I did see Jane's justification and it wasn't substantive enough to include it because she didn't say anything new that i hadn't already covered in my analysis.

      However, in order to be more fair, I'll include Jane's dialogue and my thoughts about it later on tonight. For now I got to sleep. Thanks for your comment :)

    • I just updated my analysis. It now contains Jane's dialogue after the fight and my thoughts on them.

      • Ok. I've been meaning to respond for a while; will get around to it a little later after reading your updates. And for the record I read everything in a thread and OP before commenting (including your post.)

      • Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane here because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:

        1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:

        Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.


        No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.

        Alt text

        After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now remember Jane is a survivor. It makes no sense for her to not confess about AJ if she's on the brink of death, stabbed once already close to her heart, even if she thinks Kenny won't believe her. Confessing would've prompted Clem to help her, no doubt. Why would Jane give up so easily to die and leave Clem alone with Kenny? (The whole reason she's fighting is to not leave Clem alone with Kenny!) It makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is she's numb with terror and about to die and just not thinking straight. But living in the ZA, Jane must be on the verge of death all the time. Everybody is. Imo it was the writers just making her stupid/scared on purpose so that Clem won't automatically try to save Jane, and so the final big game choice would be preserved. Anyway whether or not it's bad writing, this detail is important.

        2) Jane didn't want to kill Kenny until later. I maintain that she didn't know Kenny would try to kill her; I know you say differently but let me explain.

        I do realize that when Kenny says near the end, "I'll kill you!" Jane says, "I knew you would!" Supposedly from this statement she knew that Kenny would kill her from the start. But I don't think she knew for sure that he would kill her, from the beginning of the fight.

        Jane didn't intend to kill Kenny or have him dead at first, like you said. At one point, she says, "Just go," to him (dialogue from the silent playthrough which you've also excluded I've noticed, though it was probably just an oversight. It looks like you did take most dialogue into account though.) That interaction goes like this, when they first step outside:

        Jane: Just go.

        Kenny: I ain’t goin’ nowhere.

        Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.]

        She didn't know Kenny would kill her for sure; she gave him the chance to leave and not hurt anyone. It's pretty clear to me from the dialogue above that Jane has made the decision to end Kenny when, and only when, he has decided not to leave, though she wasn't planning on killing him before. If Clem goes between them immediately, we don't hear this "Just go" interaction. It is also at this point that Jane probably knows that Kenny would try to kill her. Before the "Just go" interaction, Kenny says, "You’re fuckin’ DEAD!" (he says this right before Jane gets him in the stomach, though you may have to wait for him to say it) indicating Kenny plans to kill Jane before Jane ever verbally indicated she would kill him. Some time after he threatens to kill her and after Kenny says he won't leave, Jane says, "It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery." She only says this quote after Kenny indicates he's not leaving.

        I think shooting Kenny is very akin to the Carol/Lizzie scene from the show. (Spoilers for the tv show; I know OP has watched the show though bc I read your entire post.) The basics are that a dangerous mentally-disturbed person has to leave the group because of their dangerous actions. Since there are no mental hospitals or therapy available in TWD universe, there are only so many options to carry this out. Lizzie, a child, killed her sister and was ready to welcome her back as a walker. After much debate Carol knew the best course of action was to kill Lizzie, because the girl wasn't safe to be around other people. Similarly, Kenny was on the verge of committing murder if you shot him. As indicated in 1), he had stabbed the knife into Jane's chest once before finally killing her, so we know that he was going to kill Jane, even without hindsight. In this case, we're stopping Kenny before he does commit murder.

        3) You language is unnecessarily pro-Kenny for being "unbiased."

        It is true that Kenny has increasingly become violent and irrationally stubborn, but again this whole situation is still Jane's fault, as she manipulates Kenny into losing control of his senses over AJ's supposed death.

        Yes Jane does manipulate the situation, and she certainly instigated it. But to say the "whole situation is still Jane's fault" is I think a bit extreme.

        You keep saying Kenny was manipulated into killing Jane. Sure he was. But a manipulated person still shouldn't have to commit murder. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're crazy, or if you've been pushed to your limits. I don't even care if you're Lee. Even if you're a parent whose child has been killed, MURDER is still NOT justified, especially if you have no evidence. You may feel like you need to kill someone who might've killed your kid, but you don't act on it in a violent manner. Killing him on the other hand in Self Defense of Others after evidence has been gathered is different.

        Kenny did have to be killed because he was going to commit murder; the evidence was right in front of us. He had already stabbed Jane once as stated in 1) and was going to do it again. He had proven himself to be dangerous.

        You also say about shooting Kenny, "Essentially, it's not based on practical concerns, but rather irrational theoretical concerns." You're arguing here about "theoretical concerns." But this situation wasn't theoretical although it was staged. Kenny did irrationally try to kill Jane even when she said it was an accident.

        If Clem had not have had such a close relationship with AJ, Jane would not have cared at all about the baby, especially since she kept referring to AJ as "it".

        You don't know that Jane would never care for AJ. She was worried that Clem was getting attached to the baby, because let's face it, it's not gonna be easy to keep him alive, and if he dies, it's gonna hit Clem harder the more attached she is to him. That's Jane's philosophy in a nutshell: don't get attached to people because once you lose them, there's too much pain. That may be why Jane herself tried not to get attached to AJ and referred to him as "it." It's true that Jane would probably have never willingly gotten into a situation where she'd have to care for a baby, but she's not so heartless to not care for it. She suggests they go back to Howe's for the baby formula, remember? Sure it was probably also the best shelter she could think of, but logically speaking Jane was right. If Kenny and Clem had tried to find Wellington through trial and error, it might've taken them a lot longer to find compared to Howe's, but they were just lucky. cough bad writing cough Also they were more sure Howe's had baby formula than Wellington (they weren't even sure at that point if Wellington even existed.)

        The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws.

        This is not an argument. Kenny and Jane aren't the same person so they won't have the same actions in the same scenario.

        While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him

        Uhh... "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north."

        “Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?” He said it himself, ladies and gentlemen. You have to kill Kenny if you disagree with him. And he wasn’t exaggerating. You know, next I could say that Jane had no choice at this point but to formulate some plan to leave Kenny with Clem. But you know what? The next thing Jane says is, "Whatever, I give up.” Implying that she’d go along with Kenny just to keep him calm. Yes, this could’ve been a lie. But at this point she’s not escalating the fight.

        • I'm really suprised no one replied to this post yet. I usually try to stay out of this Kenny vs Jane thing, but there's one of the best explanation of Jane's actions/Jane defence masterpost I've seen, and I've seen many.

        • Thank you for your comment :)

          As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun. That detail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight. As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside. She even proclaims her intention to kill Kenny when Clem asks Jane to "back off" by saying "No, Clem. It’s time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery". By making her intention to kill Kenny she made it clear that she WASN’T going to tell the truth about AJ as the fight had now become a fight to the death. For Jane to tell the truth at the "verge of death" would make no difference as all reasoning had now been left to the wayside. Both Jane and Kenny knew that when they were already at each other’s throats. You must also remember that the TWD game series is a game with limits and is confined to the parameters of the story. It can’t give us every possible choice that a person could make in this situation. Since it only gives us two choices, we can only deal with what has been presented to us. It’s pointless to start debating over hypothetical choices or over what the writer should have done.

          As for your second point that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her. I maintain that you are wrong. She did know that Kenny would try to kill her. Again it all goes back to Jane’s intention to kill him. The reason why I did not include that dialogue was not because it was an oversight, but rather because I did not see it as relevant enough to mention it. But since you brought it up, it’s clear that the reason why Jane gave Kenny the chance to leave was not because she didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her, but because she had made it clear that she intended to kill Kenny if he did not leave. Why else would Jane so eagerly slash Kenny’s stomach (a fatal wound if Kenny was any closer to the knife) and then chase after him outside screaming bloody murder (THIS IS ALL YOUR F—ING FAULT) if not to try and kill him. When she had abandoned her original plan to let Clem decide to leave Kenny, she made up her mind to force Kenny to leave because if he didn’t then she would attempt to kill him. This is why Jane warned Kenny to leave, otherwise she would fight him to the death.

          And no, the Kenny/Jane situation is not like the Carol/Lizzie situation. Lizzie was a mentally ill kid. And no matter how many times she was corrected, she never once recanted her delusions (ie. That walkers were people too) nor felt any regret over killing her little sister (which she committed in order to prove her delusions). Kenny on the other hand was not mentally ill. Whenever he made mistakes, he owned up to it, apologized and regretted his decisions, and realized he was being a jerk and overly violent. Like I said in my analysis, "Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy". Lizzie was an insane, mentally damaged girl. Kenny was not, he was merely suffering from the loss of his family and Sarita (this however does not justify his violent and abusive behavior, which he confessed to Clem that that was his issue)

          As for your charge that I’m Pro-Kenny, You make the wild assumption that by me siding with Kenny I somehow agree that Kenny should have murdered Jane. NOWHERE do I ever say that Kenny was justified in murdering Jane. I’ll say emphatically KENNY IS A MURDERER for killing Jane, plain and simple. What you don’t seem to realize is that my argument never had to do with whether Kenny was justified in killing Jane. My argument had to do with Clementine and what SHE should have morally done in this situation. And the moral thing to do is to not get involved because if Clem had shot Kenny, she would have been the unknowing murderer of Kenny due to Jane’s deception. If Jane’s scheme was merely to show Kenny’s violent side and then reveal the truth about AJ and that Kenny still wouldn’t believe her, but instead attempt to murder her, then Clem is morally obligated to kill Kenny. But that is not the case. Jane had changed her plans into trying to MURDER Kenny. It would have been morally reprehensible for Clem to unknowingly be the tool in killing Kenny over Jane’s inability to do it herself because of her own deception.

          As for the "theoretical concerns". What I was referring to was that those who chose to shoot Kenny did so because of the irrational fear that Kenny will lose his mind down the road and put Clem in danger. Simply because Jane forced that situation to happen through her deception does not validate that concern, as no one can know for sure whether Kenny would or would not lose his mind. As we have seen in this episode, Kenny was not a psychotic person, he knew he was screwing up and he promised to be better. A psychotic person would never admit that he has a problem.

          As for Jane caring about AJ. Yes, I agree with you that down the road Jane would EVENTUALLY come to care for AJ. But my point still stands that during episode 5 she did not care for AJ because of her survivalist mindset and only made strides to care for AJ just for Clem’s sake and not her own because Clem was getting attached to AJ. Jane does show that she can change, I don’t deny that. But her personality has consistently stayed the same throughout episode 4 and 5, with Clem being her hope in changing (or else Clem becomes like her in the end in certain playthroughs)

          As for my claim that "The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws." My argument was never about Kenny and Jane being the same person nor that they should have done the same thing in this scenario, it was about Jane not being justified in plotting against Kenny simply because his flaws. In the same way, no one is justified in plotting to kill another simply because of their flaws.

          As for Kenny saying "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north." You do realize that the matter of where to go was not settled by Kenny. In fact, the whole group decided to deliberate about that in the morning. Of course that never happened because Mike and Bonnie back stabbed the group by abandoning them and taking everything they had. Mike had previously asked us to “talk some sense” into Kenny, to which Clem and Kenny had decided to try and CONVINCE the group to go North in the morning. But Clem and Kenny never got the opportunity to do so. Hence, Kenny did not force anyone to go north.

          As for Kenny saying, "Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?" Remember that the reason why they are in the truck in the first place was because Mike and Bonnie had abandoned the group and took all their stuff and at the same time Clem was injured by Arvo. Therefore, Kenny and Jane needed to leave Arvo’s place immediately (there was nothing left there) and keep Clem warm with the truck’s heater. There was no time to discuss where to go until Clem had woken up. But we all know what happened next. Doesn’t matter who started the verbal spat, both began berating the other. Nonetheless, there was nothing keeping Jane from leaving Kenny, other than her affection for Clem. Thus, Kenny still did not force anyone to go with him up north. Jane chose to stay for Clem’s sake, despite her claim that she wanted to get out of the truck in order to avoid verbally fighting with Kenny.

          • Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have the time at all right now to respond as extensively as I'd like to, and tomorrow I'm going away until Sept 16th. -_- I still disagree with some of your points, but I'll just have to respond later. I will say though that it would help to look closer at the chronology of the dialogue and their actions, and who responds to what was said etc. in what order. I wrote up a script of what was said/what actions were taken, but in the interest of not making this thread too much longer than it is (too late lol) I won't post it, unless you'd like me to.

            Also I'll repeat that I am mad at Jane. I can't stand her for making Clem a murderer for such a stupid reason.

            Edit: Ah actually I have to retract the above sentence. Clem killed Kenny in the Right of Self Defense of Others; it wasn't murder.

          • I'm back! Let's get right back into it:

            As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun.

            Well when skimming through all the comments of the What was your ending? thread about 99% of people picked up the gun; I could only find one or two users on these forums who didn't pick it up. Are you saying we should ignore what happens in 99% of peoples' playthroughs?

            As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed....That detail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight.

            Why is that point irrelevant? If you ignore the shallowly-stabbed detail then you ignore my whole argument about how it's clear Kenny was dangerous and was going to be a murderer before you shoot him, and my argument that Jane wasn't written well. If you ignore what I have to say, how am I supposed to debate with you?

            You say the shallow-stabbing detail is irrelevant when we look at the whole fight, and you talk about the stomach-slashing instead:

            As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside.

            Let's look at that in the silent playthrough:

            [Jane and Kenny are struggling on the ground. Clem has the option to pull Jane off of Kenny. If Clem doesn’t, Kenny pushes Jane off of him eventually, knocking her back to the ground. He gets up and advances on her.]

            K: You’re fuckin’ DEAD!

            J: Fuck you! [Jane slices Kenny’s stomach.]

            C: Oh my god… [Kenny retreats outside]

            K: Grr!

            J: THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN’ FAULT! [Jane pursues Kenny through the door]

            Note that this dialogue takes place for everyone if you wait long enough before choosing a dialogue option; therefore this dialogue is not determinant. Like I said before, I don't think it's Jane's intention to kill Kenny here just yet. You argue that Jane clearly wants to kill Kenny since she "eagerly slashed" his stomach. Yes, she does this after he declares, "You're fuckin' DEAD!" a clear death threat if I ever saw one. This statement is the first time in the fight that either Kenny or Jane declares a death threat or an intention to kill the other. After he advances on her, she slashes his stomach, probably out of instinct or just to drive him back. Wouldn't you do the same if someone had just threatened to kill you and was advancing on you? Also note that Jane was pretty handy with that knife. It could very well be that she made the stomach slash shallow on purpose because she didn't want to kill Kenny just then, but just drive him back. And chasing after someone and yelling "THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN' FAULT" may prove Jane is angry, but this is no evidence at all proving that Jane wants to kill him yet. In fact, you could interpret her words here to be that Jane thinks it's Kenny's "fuckin' fault" that he is pushing her to kill him. But again you can't 100% conclude that she will kill him just by saying this.

            As for your second point that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her. I maintain that you are wrong.

            When she had abandoned her original plan to let Clem decide to leave Kenny, she made up her mind to force Kenny to leave because if he didn’t then she would attempt to kill him. This is why Jane warned Kenny to leave, otherwise she would fight him to the death.

            But you just agreed with me right here in the second quote! You said, "if he didn’t [leave] then she would attempt to kill him," and "...otherwise she would fight him to the death." Exactly! Jane would kill him if and only if he didn't leave. She hadn't made up her mind to kill him yet! She was willing to let him go alive! And, Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not.

            Now, you still say that Jane knew that Kenny would kill her from the start ("I maintain that you are wrong....that Jane didn't know that Kenny would try to kill her.") But if Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not like we both just agreed upon as indicated in the paragraph above, how could she possibly be sure Kenny would stay for certain and kill her?

            "Crazy people don't know they're crazy"

            As we have seen in this episode, Kenny was not a psychotic person, he knew he was screwing up and he promised to be better. A psychotic person would never admit that he has a problem.

            I didn't say Kenny was exactly the same as Lizzie; of course Lizzie is far worse than Kenny is, and everyone who's seen the show knows that. I was merely citing the closest example I could think of in TWD franchise. And please, please stop claiming the phrase, "Crazy people don't know they're crazy" is pure fact when it isn't completely. The term for this is called, "Anosognosia," meaning when an ill person doesn't realize that they're ill. Studies say that anosognosia, though present in many mentally ill patients, is nowhere near present in all patients: Impaired awareness of illness (anosognosia)...affects approximately 50 percent of individuals with schizophrenia and 40 percent of individuals with bipolar disorder. and Poor insight is a cardinal symptom of schizophrenia that, while not universally and uniformly expressed in all patients, is among the most common of its manifestations. Although Kenny is nowhere near as damaged as Lizzie is, just because he is aware of his mistakes does NOT mean he's well. He is still dangerous. If they wanted to show he wasn't dangerous, they should've shown Kenny not trying to murder someone when he had no evidence whatsoever that they were guilty.

            If Jane’s scheme was merely to show Kenny’s violent side and then reveal the truth about AJ and that Kenny still wouldn’t believe her, but instead attempt to murder her, then Clem is morally obligated to kill Kenny.

            Yeah you're right. If Jane had confessed about AJ like it would've made sense for her character to, there would've been no big final choice at the end of this game. If Kenny hadn't stopped after that confession, near everyone would've realized Kenny was killing Jane for no good reason, and would've tried to stop Kenny. Hence the bad writing on Jane.

            Jane had changed her plans into trying to MURDER Kenny.

            Yes. Jane changed her plan to kill Kenny, but only after Kenny stated that he would not leave, and after he stated that he would kill Jane (he states this before she ever says she will kill him.) Thus Jane concluded that this man was not safe for Clem to be around if he would kill people irrationally without evidence. Therefore he had to leave in some way or another.

            But her personality has consistently stayed the same throughout episode 4 and 5, with Clem being her hope in changing

            Let me bring to your attention the fact that if you let the timer run out when deciding to let the family in, Jane will decide to let them in. That's character development if I've ever seen it, after Jane's spent time with Clem. So yes, Clem is probably Jane's hope in changing for the better. :)

            Now let's consider your original comment:

            While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him

            There was no time to discuss where to go until Clem had woken up.

            No, Kenny had already decided where they were going. Kenny was driving, and from this:

            J: Now that Clem’s awake we should talk about where we’re going.

            K: We’re headed north.

            and when Kenny says "we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers," we can conclude Kenny is clearly already heading in the direction he thought Wellington was. In addition, if Clem asks, "Where are we?" after she first wakes up, Kenny says, "We've been driving a few hours now." So Kenny's probably been going in the direction of Wellington for a few hours, not just in circles. And before the "dead fingers" comment, they say this:

            K: I’ll pull this fuckin’ car over.

            J: Go ahead.

            K: You wanna die out here?

            J: Better than waitin’ to die next to you.

            Thus Kenny knows the only options here are follow him, or die in the cold. I.e. agree with him, or die.

            I’ll say emphatically KENNY IS A MURDERER for killing Jane, plain and simple.

            Great; I'm glad you agree Kenny is a murderer. Now with this fact, Clem unfortunately had the choice to either look away or to kill Kenny in defense of Jane as stated by the Right of Self-Defense of Others, not murder the near-murderer Kenny for two reasons: 1) in order to save Jane, who did not deserve to die, and 2) in order to stop Kenny from becoming a murderer.

            You can argue however that this killing wasn't justified, since Kenny seemed redeemable afterwards in his endings. Of course I regret having Kenny dead; if there had been an option where both Jane and Kenny could've lived I would've taken it. But alas there wasn't.

            ...P.S. I'm getting tired of this debate, even if I can't quite let it go. Idk if you are. Sorry it took me so long to reply again; I had a whole reply written up before and then my comp lost it. ;_;

        • I just can't agree with the notion that Jane was in anyway justified or not a complete psycho. I'm sorry but what she did was wrong and truly horrific.

          I shot kenny. Now I shot kenny because at that point I didn't know what else to do. In the moment I felt it was entirely possible that she was attacked by walkers and had no choice but to abandon the baby, and kenny killing her was just not right.

          When I picked the gun up I wasn't thinking in terms of playing favorites I always tried to play with a righteous mind set. At that moment I was pissed off about the baby right along side of kenny, but I dont feel it was justification to kill her.

          Now here's the part that blows my mind, with people siding with jane. When I found out that she lied about the baby and ended up causing me to kill someone who had always protected me, and reguardless of his aggression was ALWAYS acting on behalf of keeping the group safe. Sure there was several times when his actions caused the group trouble and towards the end wound up prying the group apart, but at the end of the day his heart was always in the right place, he did what he thought was right, he tried to be a good person. I mean right off the bat he didn't trust jane, but he and jane left. TOGETHER.

          I liked jane, but in hind sight maybe I think my liking jane may have stemmed out of me wishing molly had came back. We never experienced much with jane, but in the few situations we did we got to see her true colors. In the trailer she was more then willing to leave sarah to die. when we first see arvo I didnt trust him either, but she handled the situation like a crazy thieving scum bag, infact it was this situation that I started to actually not trust her, not just trust her judgement, but someone who acts like that to a stranger without making even the slightest effort to figure out who they are or what they are about, well... Its the kind of thing that is a true sign of evil in its baby steps. Now when the situation arouse where she had to save sarah, if not for clem demanding it, she again would have just left her for dead.

          When jane came back, I was happy. I didn't look at her negatively when she left even though at that point I had really lost alot of trust for her and her return sort of renewed that trust and made me think that she wasn't necessarily a bad person and that it was possible for her to work out her trust issues.

          Like I said, I shot kenny, but for anyone in anyway attempt to side with jane after learning what she did is just disgusting. She proved who she was when she did that, a crazy scum bag who's lack of trust drives her to let innocent people suffer for her own selfish gain.

          Jane is scum. Whether you killed kenny or not, and if you stay silent and dont forgive jane you still go with her, so if you leave with jane even then I can say its a justified action as surviving alone with a baby seems dangerous, but to anyone who in anyway attempts to justify janes actions or side with jane on what happened I have no respect for your moral judgements what so ever. What Jane did was horrible and unforgivable in every way, kenny did not deserve to die.

    • I have to agree. I liked your analysis on Jane, but you were blatantly favoring Kenny by not calling him out on his irrational behavior. Kenny is still responsible for murdering Jane (if it goes that far) plus many other events leading up to (and in) this episode. The reality is that both are in the wrong, are dangerous, and should be avoided. You can't justify Kenny's actions by Jane's wrongdoings. Kenny has been unstable all throughout season 2 and arguably, season 1.

      • I actually did call Kenny out on his irrational behavior. He had lost his senses, was not willing to hear Jane out when Clem requested that of him, and became overwhelmed by thoughts of AJ's death at the hands of Jane. But again, Kenny's irrational behavior is exactly what Jane wanted to happen as she had schemed to do from the beginning in order to get Kenny out of the picture. Both Kenny and Jane were in the wrong, no doubt. But again, when it comes to Clementine, was it morally right for her to get involved and kill Kenny, knowing full well that this was Jane's own deception? The responsibility and guilt must lay on those who are involved, and that is Kenny and Jane, not Clementine.

    1. Kenny's a grown mature man, he has to control his emotions. No matter what one endures, one has control over one's attitude and emotion. Kenny is unstable.
    2. Your point about his treatment of Clementine is valid. His treatment of others is pretty shitty and disrespectful. Jane has proven she has been looking out for Clem survival skills wise and maybe felt a bond with her. In that sense, She views Kenny's attitude and treatment of others as a negative which could end up with on the receiving end. As I said in another post, women notice things like Kenny's actions and they see fear and its not wrong ifgroup.... felt that.
    3. Its probably not the smartest thing in the world to do, but her theory was right. Kenny went off the deep end. Even if she could say anything, the tension between them was heightened enough that Jane could not say anything about the baby.
    4. He attacked a woman just before his life was in danger.
    5. Throughout the last episode its obvious Jane tried to make strides to fit in the group.
    6. Its not like Kenny's actions, decisions and rationale were never questioned before by others and rightly so.

    I'm sorry if Jane's plan was not executed and thought out better, but I do think she's justified with her concern over Kenny and how he'll be around Clem. That alone I understand.

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