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ToMI review/retrospective

posted by birky on - last edited - Viewed by 278 users

I'm currently attempting a 52 games in 52 weeks blog (originally started in response to my wife taking part in the 52 books in 52 weeks project).

for those of you interested, it's here.
(It's a big of a shameless plug, but at least it's relevant.)

To actually turn this into a worthwhile discussion, I found the more I've thought about ToMI the more I've enjoyed it. I loved the games, minus a couple of niggles, but I think the more I've gone back and pieced the plot back together the more I've enjoyed it's depth.

Has anyone else found this?

43 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • One thing I don't get though...

    About Elaine knowing everything that's going on and having a master plan.... There is an interview of Mike Stemmle I read in which this is said:

    [quote]
    SilverWolfPet: There are a lot of controversial talks between the fans regarding the story of ToMI. Can you clear it up a bit for us? For instance, is it implied that Elaine knows about everything from the start? How much DOES she know and what was her plan, if she had one?

    Mike Stemmle: Elaine has a history of being one step ahead of Guybrush, LeChuck, and everyone else in the world of Monkey Island. That’s because, well, most of the cast isn’t all that bright.[/quote]

    ...and...

    [quote]SWP: Why is Elaine wearing at the end the same clothes she was wearing when she became the undead bride? Does she still have powers?

    MS: I don’t think her clothes reflect anything other than the fact that we really liked the outfit. The only power she has at the end of ToMI is her usual uncanny ability to think 23 moves ahead.[/quote]


    Someone explain to me when she has had such an ability that Mike and company seems to think she's always had.

    In Secret, she did have friends on LeChuck's ship as well as a minor plan to get LeChuck sprayed with root beer at the wedding, but Guybrush messed that up temporarily, which she didn't plan for. She even had to make herself known when he ran in because she didn't expect him to show up when he did.

    In Revenge, she didn't even play that big of a part. She only appears long enough to throw the map piece out the window and to later get Guybrush to tell her a story and then wonder if LeChuck has him under a curse but she doesn't do anything about it.

    In Curse, she doesn't plan to get turned into a statue, nor does she help Guybrush more than to get the roller coaster stuck in a loop (but I thought that was to prevent LeChuck from killing people rather than to help Guybrush.)

    In Escape, she spends the entire game on Melee Island dealing with trying to win back her Governorship from LeChuck, which she fails at until the statue he possesses is destroyed, after which she and Guybrush get Herman Toothrot to be Governor.

    ...someone tell me where Elaine has a history of thinking several moves ahead of everyone else around her.

  • I haven't been following this whole debate, and I'm sorry if this has been answered before, or even mentioned. The voodoo lady's role seems to have elevated substantially in the last ToMI, but on a higher level than the actual story. It seems like it was put in there, mainly to hint us of things to come, or a potential (dare I say it?)... secret? Also, isn't the last episode the one where Ron Gilbert had most of his input?

    It seems to me that the role of Voodoo lady was to prepare us for a big change in the MI universe. I'd love to ask Ron if he offerered up some elements from his MI3 story in ToMI, or some hints to how the story would continue if he had done MI3.

  • @StarEye said: It seems to me that the role of Voodoo lady was to prepare us for a big change in the MI universe. I'd love to ask Ron if he offerered up some elements from his MI3 story in ToMI, or some hints to how the story would continue if he had done MI3.

    The interviews over here give a couple of insights into Ron's involvement, and they seem to suggets that it's more to do with character than plot.

    In fact I think Ron was the one who suggetsed Elaine whould be several steps ahead. If you look at MI1 she certainly is. Also she's by far the most mature character in MI2 and tries to rise above Guybrush. She's also the only character which show any sense of responsibilty - i.e chasing after the explosion on Dinky. (Actually the fact that she can find the place suggests she's been keeping a eye on the situation) I guess it also taken some intelligence (or maybe wit) to govern 3 islands of pirates and not have them rebel and looy your mansion.

    Beyond that they're no longer Ron's games, but she's certainly pretty capable in the seige at the start of MI3.

  • @Jen Kollic said: Plotbunnies... eating... brain... *flails* On the one hand I'd really like to write that backstory, on the other I'd really like to see Telltale's version. Argh.

    There is no reason why you can't do both, you know.

    @Jen Kollic said: Well, idk what you all are on Elaine's case about that for.

    First of all, I'm married too, and I think the way you explain it is a bit... I'm not sure how to explain that, but I would have preferred if you had used "committed relationship" or something. Some people spend their lives together and choose never to marry, that doesn't mean they're any less in a relationship, in a non-casual way. And some people marry and they've never met, and there is no complicity. So being married doesn't mean that much one way or the other I feel. It's not necessary to be married to have a trusting relationship, and being married doesn't mean you do, either.

    Anyways, that part of the game awakened very strong feelings in me, and that's usually great in a game but I doubt that was the goal in this instance.
    See, if she had pouted and he had been "oh, all right" right away, I would have found it funny.
    But being Guybrush, playing him and saying "no", "no", "no" many times, in many different ways, and she just doesn't care, doesn't try to convince him with arguments or anything, wants him to do something that he really, really doesn't want to do...
    It made me extremely uncomfortable, and it made me dislike her a lot. You can say no to her like ten times, but she doesn't care, she'll have it her way, you'll do what she said.
    It didn't feel nice at all.

    And in the end, she just acts like she knew everything all along. I doubt she did (if she did, I think she's even worse, barring a future explanation) but it still makes her sound pretentious and like she wants Guybrush to think she is something she isn't.

    I might be overanalising all this, but likes and dislikes are gut feelings, that's how I felt. So I don't think I can convince anyone, since, you know, if you feel differently you just do.

    On the other hand, I liked Elaine more when she was poxed. She somehow acted more like she cared for Guybrush (in my opinion/perception), even if there were notes of "you're my thing" in that.

    EDIT:
    @Jen Kollic said: RE:younger - I guess part of the negative aspect was that she looked and sounded older in the new games; specifically, a bit older than Guybrush. It doesn't work as well, I think.

    I can't wrap my mind around an Elain that wouldn't be older than Guybrush. She's already Governor in the first game, probably a major, which would be 21 at the time. I always picture him at 17 or so. I see her about 5 years older than he is, give or take.

    I don't hate that she's independent, by the way. Although, when you're in a committed relationship, you do have to keep your spouse in the loop, I feel, so she can't be /too/ independent, either.
    But she's not saying "I'll do this thing, okay?" and Guybrush tell her "no". No, she says "okay, you go and do this thing." That's not independence at all.

    I've always felt that Elaine... That might sound terrible, but oh well. You know how some people write these fanfics and then there is the main character who is just like them, and there is that ideal female stereotype and she's madly in love with him for no good reason because he's the hero? I always felt that Elaine started that way, as the "girl who falls heads over heels for the hero even though she's always rejected everyone else, because he's that great".
    And because of that, I feel their relationship always seems forced to me. It's like it fluctuates between some kind of friendship, with jokes here and there to really drop hints that yes, they're a couple, please don't forget that they're a couple.

    I think there is also the problem that so far, Elain has always been away. You play the game on your own, so she's conveniently elsewhere. As a result you don't get to see them interact quite as much.
    I can't see a reason why Elaine couldn't be around more. In episode 3 you ally with Morgan, in Sam and Max you're Sam but Max helps, in other words there is no reason for Elaine to be kept away, it's possible to do it differently, and I think it would reconcile me with her to see them interact more in an everyday way.

  • @avistew said: There is no reason why you can't do both, you know.

    ...that's pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. Moo hoo ha ha.

    @avistew said: I think there is also the problem that so far, Elain has always been away. You play the game on your own, so she's conveniently elsewhere. As a result you don't get to see them interact quite as much.
    I can't see a reason why Elaine couldn't be around more.

    I'd like to see that in a future game as well, I really liked all the parts in Tales where they got to interact.

  • @avistew said:
    But being Guybrush, playing him and saying "no", "no", "no" many times, in many different ways, and she just doesn't care, doesn't try to convince him with arguments or anything, wants him to do something that he really, really doesn't want to do...

    Idk, I'm pretty sure that's just a parody of the bucket "puzzle" from the second game, except now you're the one just saying no over and over again. At least, that's what I thought and I found it hilarious being on the other side of it all.

    In other thoughts, this game must have some pretty powerful emotional grips on folk if we're all still arguing about this issue.

  • @Giant Tope said: In other thoughts, this game must have some pretty powerful emotional grips on folk if we're all still arguing about this issue.

    Of course it does. Although as I said earlier, I doubt this specific emotional response was the intended one.

  • @avistew said: Of course it does. Although as I said earlier, I doubt this specific emotional response was the intended one.

    agreed.

  • Make Elaine a playable character in the next installment. Make her save Guybrush at least once, instead of always having him run after her.

  • @Uzrname said: Make Elaine a playable character in the next installment. Make her save Guybrush at least once, instead of always having him run after her.

    I'm sure she's saved him before. I mean, he's Guybrush!
    But I'd love for her to be playable, yeah. Or at least around more.

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