User Avatar Image

The Next Chapter of TMI???

posted by Mardagan on - last edited - Viewed by 566 users

Can we get any hints about the possible goings on for the next installment of TMI???

The Rise of the Pirate God couldn't have been the end all say all.

Mardagan

78 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • Eh, it's midnight here and I barely got any sleep last night, so my brain's pretty sluggish right now too. Add to that the fact that since yesterday, I've been constantly thinking about different designs to build a marshmallow gun out of PVC for a competition, and it's a wonder that I can discuss Monkey Island coherently right now.

    @Rather Dashing said: Of course, we're all kind of pulling at strings to try and figure out something that may not have been adequately explained or thought out.

    You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.

  • @GuruGuru214 said: Eh, it's midnight here and I barely got any sleep last night, so my brain's pretty sluggish right now too. Add to that the fact that since yesterday, I've been constantly thinking about different designs to build a marshmallow gun out of PVC for a competition, and it's a wonder that I can discuss Monkey Island coherently right now.


    A worthwhile endeavor if I've ever heard one.

    You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.


    Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.

  • My friends and I originally wanted to try using Nerf guns (and as it turns out, Nerf's standard six-shooter, the Maverick, shoots marshmallows surprisingly well, though you have to pick ones fat enough to fit tightly in the chambers), but the person in charge of the rules of the marshmallow gun fight keeps changing the rules randomly, so it's looking like that won't be allowed.

    But this is all neither here nor there. How about them monkeys?

    @Rather Dashing said: Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.

    Eh, the whole thing was just for fun, just to see if I could find evidence to support a claim that the entire Monkey Island series was a series of interconnected events in the Voodoo Lady's plot to do...erm...something... Plus I was sleep deprived and bored at the time.

  • @Bagge said: There's three of them, just count them. Do a quick search on Google or on these forums to find dozens more.

    @Bagge said: Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)

    Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island (3 I guess?) was very dissapointing.

    @Bagge said: I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue the assertion that BEING MURDERED makes you DIE.


    Yup, I know that. It's just kind of me wondering how killing GUYBRUSH made LECHUCK undead, as happens. Maybe I wasn't clear I was talking about LC all the time, making you miss that? Explain that...
    On the other hand, being blown up by a voodoo-powered weapon that is intended to kill and destroy, rather than act as either passive storage or an active aid, it just seems silly.
    It makes sense when you do not assume too much like you do. What says it's intended to kill and destroy? LeChuck wanted to marry Elaine, not outright kill her. And this voodoo ball would help in that. So it can be easily assumed it's not the killing device you make it out to be, more a device meant to... make Elaine his demon bride.
    As such, wouldn't it make sense to transform him as it did?
    Certainly, subterfuge and evil plots are a good deal different than "throw him in a box downstairs".
    "Heya, Guybrush, you may be gathering ingredients for that spell of yours, go ahead... I wont stop you. Just like CMI I pay more attention to plan A. Of course this IS different, but I rather let Rather Dashing explain why because I don't grasp it myself either."
    And when he DOES reveal himself, and he's now the active and known antagonist, he's smashing Guybrush around the ship, just like the classic confrontations of the first two games.
    And there is no fighting around in CMI? I am sure I remember something about LC appearing, casting flames and time limits and stuff. Dunno about EMI, never finished that one...
    So, Curse is crucified for that because they're completely different situations.
    Aside from their similarity that's pretty close to complete equalness? Sure...
    Right. No real damage done, and LeChuck continues sobbing and being, in general, harmless. I suppose you could consider "he broke my cannon" to being equivalent to real damage and loss of human life, but I just don't see the equity.
    Oooooh... and how many did he kill in LCR? Lemme count on my 0 hands, becuase I am pretty sure the amount is a whooping 0. If you count evilness by human losses, your LCR comes out pretty bad compared to CMI, where plenty of people turned into skeletons by LeChuck's hand.
    I never found him scary in LCR either to be honest, and I played it as a kid, but maybe I am just the exception.
    But I can probably forgive the guy, considering his huge eyeglasses and inability to hear.
    Yet you cannot forgive the CMI guys, for... well... arbitary reasons I suppose?
    I'm also pretty sure he's not actually a pirate, considering he doesn't accept bribes.
    Sorry, this rule doesn't count, since Kenny is crucified too even being "not an actual pirate". And the Cabana boy. And who knows who else.
    Banjo-dueling.
    Which IMO was brilliant.
    And they sing.
    Yeah. But that's more because they have VO now, because otherwise it probably wouldn't be possible (see previous MI's) unlike in a way as done in LCR. Fear the MI2:SE... It will have singing! From piratey parents!
    The island has a freaking kid selling lemonade on it.
    He sold lemonade? I would have never known if I hadn't switched glasses. Oh well...
    Okay, I can see you thinking that Mad Marty is meant to be a pirate, but the LIBRARY LADY?
    Well, you were opposing "non-piratey" thinks, no? Well, here is one. But if you mean pirates who pose as something else, then okay, this one doesn't hold...
    Also, Tales takes place a good number of years after Escape, rather than right afterwards. You can assume that the problems "fixed themselves" in the interim. Not so with Curse, and you really couldn't "just do that" with Curse because it had a BIG REVELATION at the end that REQUIRED further exposition, where Escape cleaned up nicely at the end.
    So you crucify CMI for ignoring what happened before, now say they had to and did, and ToMI is fine for that but CMI is not by definition of...
    Wait... I got confused here for a moment...
    LeChuck was a bungling villain, rather than actually scary.
    As he was in the previous MI's if I recall. The few times he appeared in the first 2 MI's he was your generic foolish villain. CMI just gave him more screentime. Maybe that's your issue, their should have been less LeChuck?
    the overall strokes of the story was "serious", if a bit simple for the most part.
    Just as CMI. Save the damsel, defeat the villain. Hey; that sounds like SMI. The goofiness is build around it, as was the way with SMI and LCR.
    and rarely felt like a stupid villain
    Instead of killing you, I lock you in this UNESCAPABLE death-trap of which their is no escape and leave you all alone to escape and continue to do something else.
    Could have been from Austin Powers. Or, well, LCR and CMI.
    I think you give LeChuck too much credit. He always was the silly villain.
    He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics(by needing to stop him through a three-stage puzzle) and the story(by having him beat up Guybrush at the start, for one).
    He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics (by needing to stop him through a several-stage puzzle in a rollercoaster ride) and the story (by having him shoot at Guybrush with a cannon at the start, for one).
    Even *trying* to directly kill Guybrush is more threatning and villanous than what LeChuck did in both the previous games...
    Curse's ending..takes place in a theme park.
    Yet, the colour pallete is darker, and has become so throughout the game. Sunshine at Plunder, night at Blood, still night at the Park. If you were a fan of darker colour pallete's when things get more serious, why do you suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, exclude Curse?
    As such...
    "Note that Curse has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes."
    And rather than being something original, it was something ripped out of the ending to MI2 to try and tangentially link it to one of the first two games, like tossing the exact same swordfighting puzzle into it.
    So, to get this straight, CMI is damned because it ignores the previous 2 games, but OH MY... it tries to include things of the previous 2 games. That sucks SO much. It should not have included swordfighting or continuation from the MI2 ending, you know, even though I complain they didn't.
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess?
    Please, make up your mind.
    So basically, it was bright
    I recall no overt brightness during the final puzzle, but that may be just me.
    I'm actually pretty cool with Tales, on the whole.
    Okay. In that case, I revert back to my original question. Why is CMI crucified and ToMI "good stuff" if ToMI definitely proceeds along the line CMI set out. From "brightness" to the piratey theme. And the voices.
    KOTOR II is a really poor example.
    No, it's not. It's the perfect example of how a weak ending on a very good game (like LCR) allows for speculation for years to come.
    You are playing through a story in someone's head. Well, multiple people, who then put the story into code on commission. Sorry you can't get what you want. I suggest you learn the difference between fiction and reality quickly, because the distinction is going to be invaluable in the future.
    Odd argument from someone who claims storyline and deepness are everything, but I'll go along for now.
    You (say you) like a good story, deep, dark, and stuff. Then would you prefer it if that ended with a sloppy weak ending nullifying everything. Take KOTOR (since you know it) would the ending be better if on the Star Forge Malak said "now witness the power of the Star Forge", a cutscene ran where you died, and the ending was a pre-determined 'doomed galaxy, whatever you did was pointless'... credits?
    That would be bad storytelling. I don't need a happy ending, but atleast a resolution to the story, so everything that happens in the story isn't completely nullified. I wouldn't mind reading a book if the story ended with the hero getting killed or something similar, a dark ending where stuff went completely bad (See: Each ending of the series "24"). 24 Season 1 had a good ending, even if the hero found his wife dead in it. If it would have ended with a beeper going off, he wakes up, and all 24 hours where just a dream, then yes... I call a piss-poor ending.
    The way I see it, unlocking a surprising ending at the end of a game is a far greater reward than being given the same god-damn feel-good ending that Hollywood has been spoon-feeding a mass market that can't handle more than focus-group approved, generic slop.
    Don't say I disagree. For starters, I wasn't particular happy with ToMI's ending either, short, happy, etc.
    A surprising ending, like he actually being stuck at the crossroads as some suggested, I would have preffered more.

  • Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)

    Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island (3 I guess?) was very dissapointing.

    Congratulations, you found them

  • Go Dashing, go !

    No matter where's anyone's preference , and while i'm far from being as harsh on Curse as Rather Dashing, I can't understand why so many people don't seem to get the fact that many of what caused Escape to basically suck indeed started in Curse. Up until Tales, Curse WAS more or less "the begining of the end".
    I'm not talking so much about the actual story, though it did have some flaws, but more about, well, the general atmosphere and tone. I don't care about the cartoony graphics, but i wholly agree with dashing's points on the cartoony story.

    LeChuck just can't possibly be taken seriously (he dies because of dropping his own voodoo cannonball... Heck, he even dies TWICE in the game!) and with him all sense of a real threat is gone. I do think he remains a cool character, but he's definitely not the the "real" LeChuck anymore.

    And concerning the "more piratey feel" thing, this never meant EVERYONE has to be a real hardcore pirate !
    Of course Revenge had that laundry guy and wally, secret had the shopkeeper and the circus brothers, stan's NEVER been a pirate by any means, and so on... Just because it's a pirate setting doesn't mean everyone's got to be a pirate, quite the contrary actually. You need those background characters, they add depht, realism or whatever to the setting.
    The difference is that, in secret for instance, you had those "normal" blokes, AND some more serious pirates (the SCUMM Bar patrons, the guys wandreing the street...). Sure they've never been that threatening or serious, since it's always been about fun, but still, they had that "actual pirate" vibe.
    Now starting in Curse, suddenly everyone is a pirate, and at the same time no one is a pirate. Retired pirate turned barber, pirate cook, pirate shakespearian actor... Everyone basically claims to be a pirate while definitely not BEING one. This got worse in Escape, and even to some extent in tales (pirate glassblower ??).

    Basically, the goofyness which, sure, had always been part of the monkey island, became much more central in curse, and i can't see how anyone can deny it. It went from "let's have some fun with a pirate story" to "let's tell a story about funny pirates", and that's just not quite the same thing.

    Now, as i said, i ain't nearly as harsh on Curse than Rather Dashing. Even if it all bugs me a little and if i do feel that some of that special thingie that made the first two games is gone, i still see these flaws as rather minor and they don't prevent me from enjoying the game. I think these "bad points" overall didn't go too far, and there's still SOME balance between serious and goofy, at least enough to retain a lot of the monkey island feel. But as i understand it, Dashing's point is not that Curse sucked, but that what made Escape suck started there. It's okay to prefer the Curse's atmopshere to the previous ones', but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.

    Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses. That witch like old lady's betrayal was predictable right from the start but the actual betrayal didn't make any sense. I pretty much stopped paying attention to the story from then on and just considered the game a fun star wars hack and slash, so in the end the ending didn't bother me, since it all had stopped making sense way before that.
    This is definitely not the same thing as Revenge's ending, which in itself might make no sense at all, but what came before did. Sure it is frustrating, and i understand why people could hate it, but it's definitely not due to actual storytelling flaw.
    If anyone's studied music theory, they probably know than just like stories a lot of it revolves around tension and resolution. The easiest way to play around that in music is to play around with those chords called the I chord and the V chord : the later brings tension, and the former resolves it. An awful lot of music pieces, be it symphonies or stupid jingle tunes, will end with a V to I chord movement.
    Well in one of the latest song we wrote with my band, we decided to end it on the V chord, and NOT resolve it to the I. We just stop there, and the song clearly doesn't sound finished. We set up tension and we chose not to resolve it. I personally think it's great (certainly not original, even though i can't think of any exemple right now it's definitely been done before, and it sure wouldn't work in any context), but i'm sure a lot of people are gonna hate that ending.
    Well revenge's ending is exactly that. It doesn't only stops on the V chord, it switches to some totally unrelated key and leaves everything hanging there. This create an awful lot of tension and expectation, and it's definitely not a pleasing ending. It doesn't conclude anything, actually it's quite the opposite of a conslusion. And yes, it's frustrating, and just like my band's song, it's obvious some people are going to hate it. But no matter what you think of it, it's not lazyness or poor story telling. It's been said that the ending was Ron Gilbert's way of making sure the series couldn't continue without him. I don't care if that's true or not, but if it is, well he still did so in a very clever and thought out way. It MIGHT ruin the future of the series, but not the game itself.

    Okay, that post is way too long already, so i guess i'll shut up now. I do enjoy reading this thread a great deal, even if i don't have so much to add. Reminds me, in a more focused way, of Sladdersomethin (can't remember his exact screen name) thread about the tone of monkey island. If anyone likes this thread and haven't already read that other one, i can only encourage them to check it out.

  • @Rather Dashing said: Tales takes place on LeChuck's ship, with a giant stone tower rising from the deck. The scene is dark. LeChuck's attacks are downright brutal, sending Guybrush flying. He's TOYING with you, savoring every hit. You know he can kill Guybrush at any moment. He's scary and intimidating for the first time since LeChuck's Revenge, and I really enjoy it.

    What really reminded me of LCR in Tales was the way LeChuck will randomly show up while you're looking for the Diet of the Senses ingredients in the physical world, mock you, and throw you back into the Crossroads. I don't know if he shows up in all the locations, but he certainly does in the Flotsam jungle and Club 41, and it really does give you the feeling that there's no escape from him.

  • @Astro Gnocci said: but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.


    Well, I certainly wont claim that is the case, but the 100% serious dark atmosphere LCR, 0% serious uber-goofy CMI point Rather Dashing seemed to make is a little too black & white.
    Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses.
    Probably. If you want dark, deep and complex, you can't get better than KOTOR2 (well, there is Planescape: Torment). Even in it's unfinished state.
    If you really need some explenation try the "Let's Play Kotor2" walkthrough (google it!). Not only does it excellently explain the story for those who didn't grasp it, it mentions what was cut, and is very funny to boot...

  • Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)

    Actually, the way I read it was:
    - Guybrush is actually a kid (1)
    - Guybrush is trapped by LeChuck's magic (2) (By the way, the way I see it that's Curse's explanation)
    - Big Whoop is a portal to another world (3)

    About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
    It's a possibility.

  • @avistew said: About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
    It's a possibility.

    After reading this, I just had a thought that rather than LeChuck being the "owner" of the sponge, I think it likely that The Voodoo Lady, being in a jail cell adjacent to LeChuck's. had enough time to talk to him and... *ahem* "let slip" information to him about how to extract Voodoo from the sponge. She had time alone to talk to him, and even if he suspected that what she might say would be for her own plans, how could he pass up the chance to use it?

Add Comment