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Boobs: an artistic discussion

posted by Jen Kollic on - last edited - Viewed by 13.3K users

@Secret Fawful said: I decided to do some Morgan fanart, since I've barely contributed to this topic at all. And I used the opportunity to try a bit of a new style.

Sketch to Finished Product-

ws63c0.jpg

That looks great! I love Winslow's expression.

And I also agree that Thriller Guybrush needs to be an official smiley.

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  • @Secret Fawful said:
    fbaz2u.jpgHigh-Res Image

    Hope I wasn't late to the constructive criticism party! I just wanted to mention a few things that haven't been brought up yet.

    [LIST]
    [*]It looks like Elaine just went out naked and painted her top on. Even if she was supposed to be wearing a super-tight shirt (which she shouldn't be), the shirt still wouldn't be clinging to the skin like that. Take a lot at this photo of Hilary Duff with a tight babydoll:

    122fccp.jpg

    See what's happening to the fabric in-between the breasts; it's not clinging, but rather it's just stretching from boob-to-boob. With the exception of spandex and other dance/fitness knits, no fabric can cling to every inch of a woman's rack, especially if she's got a large one. This is true even when she's got cleavage like that... but of course, I'm not sure if she should even be having that much cleavage anyway (see bulletpoint #3).


    [*]You drew Elaine's breasts like they were water balloons. I know that avistew said to "Think water balloons" when drawing breasts, but don't misconstrue that as "Draw breasts as water balloons." She was only referring to the way breasts change shape depending on how a woman's positioned, not to how they're shaped. In reality, breasts aren't as full-looking or rounded as water balloons. For this part, let's take a look at a painting by the King of Fantasy Curvy Women, Frank Frazetta, which I've redlined and flipped for your convenience:

    11iojs5.jpg(By the way, if drawing well-endowed women is your thing, you really ought to study this guy's art if you haven't already. I assure you that every Western professional 'sexy girl' artist today was influenced one way or another by Frank Frazetta. Also, here's the full image.)

    Notice that the top of her breast is almost a flat plane instead of being swollen. Even if they're large, breasts are just naturally going to sag a little without some support. Which brings me to my next point...


    [*]Is Elaine wearing a bra or not? Honestly, it's kind of hard to tell. The subtle nippleage and the way they stick out of her ribcage without anything holding them back suggests that she's not wearing a bra. BUT, on the other hand, there's no way her breasts can be lifted up like that without support. Additionally, well, hopefully you know this already, but I HAVE met guys who didn't, so I'm going to say it anyway... no woman can have tight cleavage like that without support. No matter what cup size she has, there's always going to be a gap between her breasts. The only way a woman can achieve epic cleavage like that you've given Elaine here is if she was wearing a push-up bra. Just take a look at any girl in a bikini and you'll see a gap between their breasts, even when they're being held up. Of course, a push-up bra also compresses the breasts, and Elaine doesn't look like she has compressed breasts, so, uh, yeah. You really need to pick one or the other and stick with it.

    Lastly...


    [*]Holy anorexic waist, Batman! I know you're trying to go for an exaggerated, cartoony look here, but exaggerating proportions do not give you free rein to do whatever you want. Take a look at the example I've got below:

    4rxs0i.jpg

    Now, I'm not saying that your proportions are Liefeld-caliber, but they're a little too close for comfort right now. Part of the problem, I think, is that you've drawn a woman who has an enormous chest but looks to be starving underneath her skintight clothes. Unless you get surgery, that just isn't possible. Take a look at Bruce Timm's Wonder Woman picture. Girl's got a heck of a waist, fo' sho, but at least she has a normal-sized chest to balance it out (also notice that her breasts are round and perky only because her costume has support, and even then, there's still a visible gap between them). Now take a look at Rob Liefeld's picture. He tried to go all the way by giving the woman a huge chest (and a huge, oblong ribcage for some reason) and a stick waist, and the results are terrible. The key to exaggeration is to purposefully exaggerate body parts in a way that makes sense. Bruce Timm knows that; Rob Liefeld doesn't.

    Also, notice that, like you, Liefeld decided to accentuate her ribcage, which is definitely what completes the 'starved' look. That is the main difference between someone who's just thin and someone who's anorexic: whether or not you can see his or her ribcage sticking out. So unless you want an anorexic look, you ought to put on some flesh between the ribcage and waist. Not only will Elaine look healthier, but it will actually help define her waist better!
    [/LIST]

    Okay, so, that's all I can think of for now. Since you mentioned earlier that you want to start drawing women with smaller or at least normal-sized breasts, I'm going to direct you to some excellent sites for reference pictures of women in a variety of poses. However, since there's a lot of nudity (albeit tasteful, artistic nudity) on these sites, I'm just going to send them to you in a PM so I don't get banned. So take at look at those, draw some more, and have fun!

  • Great post, Cello!
    I love how you illustrated it all with various references.

  • @DoctorCello said: Hope I wasn't late to the constructive criticism party! I just wanted to mention a few things that haven't been brought up yet.

    I appreciate all critique, man, and you've provided some great stuff. I find it hilarious that most of the mistakes I make are in the breasts; that's just way too funny.

    [*]It looks like Elaine just went out naked and painted her top on. Even if she was supposed to be wearing a super-tight shirt (which she shouldn't be), the shirt still wouldn't be clinging to the skin like that. Take a lot at this photo of Hilary Duff with a tight babydoll:

    122fccp.jpg

    See what's happening to the fabric in-between the breasts; it's not clinging, but rather it's just stretching from boob-to-boob. With the exception of spandex and other dance/fitness knits, no fabric can cling to every inch of a woman's rack, especially if she's got a large one. This is true even when she's got cleavage like that... but of course, I'm not sure if she should even be having that much cleavage anyway (see bulletpoint #3).


    Well, to start off, I will say that I did give the left (our left) breast a little too much lift. As far as the cling, actually fabric can cling to a woman like that, although not in the cleavage, which you can see here -
    dolly_parton3.jpg
    A difference here is that my breast is higher than hers is. However, Elaine's right breast I do believe carries perfect weight and is low enough. As far as the cleavage, there's a simple reason why there's too much. I drew the entire outline of the breasts, which was a bad decision. I didn't have any reasoning for it, and it does show my inexperience with breasts. I definitely don't think that the fabric can cling to the cleavage as I drew it, but I do think that it can cling to the outside areas as I drew it. Now, one big difference between Elaine and the example I posted as well is that the woman in the example has implants, and Elaine does not. However, the reason Elaine looks as if she does is because I wasn't really interested in drawing the breasts realistically when I did, and wanted to exaggerate and balloon them. Anyway, you're correct, cleavage = not right. So I fixed it. I also fixed the right boob as avistew suggested.

    CHANGE 1-
    5m9yq0.jpg[*]You drew Elaine's breasts like they were water balloons. I know that avistew said to "Think water balloons" when drawing breasts, but don't misconstrue that as "Draw breasts as water balloons." She was only referring to the way breasts change shape depending on how a woman's positioned, not to how they're shaped. In reality, breasts aren't as full-looking or rounded as water balloons. For this part, let's take a look at a painting by the King of Fantasy Curvy Women, Frank Frazetta, which I've redlined and flipped for your convenience:

    11iojs5.jpg(By the way, if drawing well-endowed women is your thing, you really ought to study this guy's art if you haven't already. I assure you that every Western professional 'sexy girl' artist today was influenced one way or another by Frank Frazetta. Also, here's the full image.)

    Notice that the top of her breast is almost a flat plane instead of being swollen. Even if they're large, breasts are just naturally going to sag a little without some support. Which brings me to my next point...
    In this case, I did draw it as in the picture you posted, but the way I drew it masks that because of the way the outlines are drawn, outside of the waist.
    11iojs5.jpgddgt9j.jpg
    As you can see the outlines are basically the same, but the outlines of her coat gets in the way of the outline of the folds around her actual breast in her shirt. The main problem is that the left breast is still a little too high. So I fixed that too. I had to significantly reduce the top of the breast, but it's much more..er...fixed now.

    CHANGE 2-
    rvhbw4.jpg[*]Is Elaine wearing a bra or not? Honestly, it's kind of hard to tell. The subtle nippleage and the way they stick out of her ribcage without anything holding them back suggests that she's not wearing a bra. BUT, on the other hand, there's no way her breasts can be lifted up like that without support. Additionally, well, hopefully you know this already, but I HAVE met guys who didn't, so I'm going to say it anyway... no woman can have tight cleavage like that without support. No matter what cup size she has, there's always going to be a gap between her breasts. The only way a woman can achieve epic cleavage like that you've given Elaine here is if she was wearing a push-up bra. Just take a look at any girl in a bikini and you'll see a gap between their breasts, even when they're being held up. Of course, a push-up bra also compresses the breasts, and Elaine doesn't look like she has compressed breasts, so, uh, yeah. You really need to pick one or the other and stick with it.

    Lastly...
    She wasn't supposed to be wearing a bra. I rarely put enough thought into drawing breasts, with my inexperience in that matter, to draw it as if the woman is wearing a bra, so I throw the bra out altogether. I know as I get better, that will leave and I'll be able to work some bra-tastic magic. Since the "epic cleavage :D" is gone now, well I don't know where that leaves it. I definitely knew that cleavage like that needs support or else the breasts will go to the sides, but it didn't hit my thoughts when making this picture. As far as picking one or the other, I'd rather be able to draw both with or without bra.

    [*]Holy anorexic waist, Batman! I know you're trying to go for an exaggerated, cartoony look here, but exaggerating proportions do not give you free rein to do whatever you want. Take a look at the example I've got below:

    4rxs0i.jpg

    Now, I'm not saying that your proportions are Liefeld-caliber, but they're a little too close for comfort right now. Part of the problem, I think, is that you've drawn a woman who has an enormous chest but looks to be starving underneath her skintight clothes. Unless you get surgery, that just isn't possible. Take a look at Bruce Timm's Wonder Woman picture. Girl's got a heck of a waist, fo' sho, but at least she has a normal-sized chest to balance it out (also notice that her breasts are round and perky only because her costume has support, and even then, there's still a visible gap between them). Now take a look at Rob Liefeld's picture. He tried to go all the way by giving the woman a huge chest (and a huge, oblong ribcage for some reason) and a stick waist, and the results are terrible. The key to exaggeration is to purposefully exaggerate body parts in a way that makes sense. Bruce Timm knows that; Rob Liefeld doesn't.

    Also, notice that, like you, Liefeld decided to accentuate her ribcage, which is definitely what completes the 'starved' look. That is the main difference between someone who's just thin and someone who's anorexic: whether or not you can see his or her ribcage sticking out. So unless you want an anorexic look, you ought to put on some flesh between the ribcage and waist. Not only will Elaine look healthier, but it will actually help define her waist better!

    The exaggerated waist is due to the fact that I study Roger Jackson's art style, and his art tends to..well..

    Tennis_SFX_by_jollyjack.jpg

    yeah. As well as Shirow Masamune, who also tends to do anorexic waists (and everything else) up the wazoo-

    mshd_main.jpg

    However, I don't ALWAYS draw the exaggerated waist.

    I also study and tend to imitate Bruce Timm a lot when it comes to women, as well as Utility Pole Spirit, who draws a lot of large breasts mixed with wide waists-
    9793ccf0.jpg

    However in this case, I think again its a matter of the outlines messing up the impression. I wasn't emphasizing her ribs (ugh! nasty! I despise it when artists show ribs through the skin). Here I'll show you what I mean.

    k7pz6.jpg

    Here is where her waist is, and the actual outline of it, and here-

    2a66t7q.jpg

    -is where her hips are. The "emphasizing of her ribs" is just the folds and form of her clothing, but I tend to draw those folds at that area of the body more jagged, while I draw folds on the sleeves and pants round and loopy.
    So I widened the waist a bit and removed or shortened the folds so its easier to see the waist outline. If it's still too thin, let me know.

    Final Change-
    9r0r68.jpgOkay, so, that's all I can think of for now. Since you mentioned earlier that you want to start drawing women with smaller or at least normal-sized breasts, I'm going to direct you to some excellent sites for reference pictures of women in a variety of poses. However, since there's a lot of nudity (albeit tasteful, artistic nudity) on these sites, I'm just going to send them to you in a PM so I don't get banned. So take at look at those, draw some more, and have fun! I can draw women with more normal sized breasts, and do, just not as often as the well-endowed I showcased here. It's not that I want to stop drawing well-endowed, I just want to draw equally of both, and I definitely thank you for the references you sent me. :) Now I don't know if I felt as if I HAD to edit the picture, but I wanted to see if I fixed any of the problems that were in it before.

    EDIT: I noticed in the picture you posted of Frazetta's drawing that my waist was still off on the left side, so I edited it again.

  • Sweet. More boob info :D

    @DoctorCello said: 4rxs0i.jpg

    Try to draw a spine to the "Not sexy" picture. Disturbing.

    ijzqSnwNs.jpg

    :(

  • @Secret Fawful said: Well, to start off, I will say that I did give the left (our left) breast a little too much lift. As far as the cling, actually fabric can cling to a woman like that, although not in the cleavage, which you can see here -
    [insert horrifying picture of Dolly Parton that doesn't need to be reposted ever again]

    Well, I was specifically referring to how it doesn't cling to the cleavage. Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time around. Still, it isn't because of the fabric that the jacket is form-fitting, it's just tailored that way. But I digress, really... I guess I'm still a little confused as to why you gave Elaine skin-tight clothes in the first place, since that's not what she wears in the game (her vest and blouse are very loose) and it doesn't really fit her character. If Elaine wanted to be sexy, she wouldn't be wearing a tight blouse with no breast support, she'd be wearing fishnets and a corset or something.

    A difference here is that my breast is higher than hers is. However, Elaine's right breast I do believe carries perfect weight and is low enough. As far as the cleavage, there's a simple reason why there's too much. I drew the entire outline of the breasts, which was a bad decision. I didn't have any reasoning for it, and it does show my inexperience with breasts. I definitely don't think that the fabric can cling to the cleavage as I drew it, but I do think that it can cling to the outside areas as I drew it. Now, one big difference between Elaine and the example I posted as well is that the woman in the example has implants, and Elaine does not. However, the reason Elaine looks as if she does is because I wasn't really interested in drawing the breasts realistically when I did, and wanted to exaggerate and balloon them. Anyway, you're correct, cleavage = not right. So I fixed it. I also fixed the right boob as avistew suggested.

    Okay, I'm now going to get into something that I should have brought up in my first post: Elaine isn't exactly the bustiest girl, so I'm not really sure why you drew her as such. Honestly, she's a C-cup at most. The whole point of exaggeration is to take what's especially obvious of a figure and, well, exaggerate it. Taking Elane's bust, which is average-sized at best, and enlarging it a lot isn't exaggeration, it's modifying her character completely. With Elaine (at least in Tales), her most obvious feature is her hips, so why not focus on those? It's good that you took out the cleavage, though, and I like the creases on the fabric.

    In this case, I did draw it as in the picture you posted, but the way I drew it masks that because of the way the outlines are drawn, outside of the waist.
    [insert pictures]
    As you can see the outlines are basically the same, but the outlines of her coat gets in the way of the outline of the folds around her actual breast in her shirt. The main problem is that the left breast is still a little too high. So I fixed that too. I had to significantly reduce the top of the breast, but it's much more..er...fixed now.

    Eh, I think the top of her left breast could still be a tad flatter, but the main issue is ultimately that her breasts are too big. Still, looks a lot better than before.

    She wasn't supposed to be wearing a bra. I rarely put enough thought into drawing breasts, with my inexperience in that matter, to draw it as if the woman is wearing a bra, so I throw the bra out altogether. I know as I get better, that will leave and I'll be able to work some bra-tastic magic. Since the "epic cleavage :D" is gone now, well I don't know where that leaves it. I definitely knew that cleavage like that needs support or else the breasts will go to the sides, but it didn't hit my thoughts when making this picture. As far as picking one or the other, I'd rather be able to draw both with or without bra.

    Not to be rude, but... drawing women with breast support isn't as hard as you make it out to be. Just study women with actual clothes on. Again, it's really out-of-character for Elaine to be going out like that, so I don't know why you've drawn her like that. On a sidenote, though, I've heard that Elaine probably wears a corset instead of a bra, as was custom back in that age. But then again, this is Monkey Island, so anything goes I guess!

    The exaggerated waist is due to the fact that I study Roger Jackson's art style, and his art tends to..well..

    Tennis_SFX_by_jollyjack.jpg

    vytpcn.jpg

    UHHHHHH... I wouldn't... copy that guy's art, or at least copy his proportions. I know this is going to sound rude, but it looks like this guy learned his anatomy from Rob Liefeld, and that's reeeeeally not something to be proud of.

    yeah. As well as Shirow Masamune, who also tends to do anorexic waists (and everything else) up the wazoo-

    mshd_main.jpg

    Actually, I wouldn't call that anorexic. In fact, she looks very athletic; look at those abs, man! And notice that her hips and bust are fairly small as well (well, okay, her bust is a little big in proportion to the rest of her body, but it isn't over-the-top so it's believable), so overall she's got a pretty well-proportioned body.

    However, I don't ALWAYS draw the exaggerated waist.

    I also study and tend to imitate Bruce Timm a lot when it comes to women, as well as Utility Pole Spirit, who draws a lot of large breasts mixed with wide waists-

    However in this case, I think again its a matter of the outlines messing up the impression. I wasn't emphasizing her ribs (ugh! nasty! I despise it when artists show ribs through the skin). Here I'll show you what I mean.

    Here is where her waist is, and the actual outline of it, and here-

    -is where her hips are. The "emphasizing of her ribs" is just the folds and form of her clothing, but I tend to draw those folds at that area of the body more jagged, while I draw folds on the sleeves and pants round and loopy.
    So I widened the waist a bit and removed or shortened the folds so its easier to see the waist outline. If it's still too thin, let me know.

    Okay, I'm kind of tired at this point and I'm not sure if I'd be able to explain myself correctly with words, so screw it. Look at the redlining below and if you have any questions about it, go ahead and shoot:

    2v9st92.jpgI can draw women with more normal sized breasts, and do, just not as often as the well-endowed I showcased here. It's not that I want to stop drawing well-endowed, I just want to draw equally of both, and I definitely thank you for the references you sent me. :) Now I don't know if I felt as if I HAD to edit the picture, but I wanted to see if I fixed any of the problems that were in it before.

    Well, you've definitely improved the shape of the breasts, that's for sure. But, really... At this point, I guess I'm really curious to know why you draw Elaine and Morgan with such exaggerated breasts in the first place. Don't take this the wrong way, there's nothing inherently wrong with drawing big breasts, but drawing them on characters that don't have them in the first place?

  • It's fan art. You can change proportions the way you see fit.
    I don't usually like fan art that much, but this way, I keep watching. ^^

  • @Joop said: It's fan art. You can change proportions the way you see fit.
    I don't usually like fan art that much, but this way, I keep watching. ^^

    Yeah but I could very well draw elaine with man proportions and say that's just the way i draw fan art of elaine. ...oh wait.

  • @Giant Tope said: Yeah but I could very well draw elaine with man proportions and say that's just the way i draw fan art of elaine. ...oh wait.

    Objection-Artwork.png@Giant Tope said: So I decided to Mann up and colored this pic. This took way longer to do than a joke picture should take to finish.

    whyfinish.jpg

    I might fix some coloring stuff later, but for now I'm too tired to really notice any major problems.

    lessons learned. feathers aren't fun to color.

    Yes, I did recently try out Phoenix Wright. Why do you ask?

  • Man.... you guys are going to make it so artists are afraid to share anything if you rip apart every little detail about the piece

  • Fawful, I think it looks great. You did a good job. The changes do make it look more real, but comic art doesn't always have to mimic real-life. You can have your own style and that's just fine. I like it.

    [edit] just don't copy Rob Liefeld's style, lol.[/edit]

    @Irishmile said: Man.... you guys are going to make it so artists are afraid to share anything if you rip apart every little detail about the piece

    Agreed.

    For some reason, I'm hearing the voice of Linkara in my head saying "...the alchemy machine from Sultry Teenage Super Foxes #1 that turns dog poop into gold."

This discussion has been closed.