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Alternate Solution to "Hot Hawks" Puzzle

posted by Koomazaz on - last edited - Viewed by 716 users

Hey guys,

I think the "Hot Hawks" puzzle should have at least one additional solution.

*SPOILERS*

This is the birds puzzle which has more gnomes than total bird-power, and you are supposed to leave out one of the birds. Rather than leave out a bird, I chose to have some of the birds carry less than their maximum weight. There is no rule saying that each bird must carry its maximum weight, and I feel that my solution is equally valid. In fact, having a bird carry no gnomes means that it is carrying infinitely less than its max weight.

*END SPOILERS*

Here is a link to my solution (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3348/hothawks.png), which I believe should be added as a possible answer to the puzzle.

What do you guys think?

Koomazaz

34 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • I also came up with the OP's solution and had to resort to the hints. Very frustrating. Also, IIRC, puzzle #2 in the birds series requires some of the birds to be at less than maximum capacity.

  • Koomazaz, your solution does not work. The owl and the bluebird at the right side do add up to 5 but between the owl and bluebird you have the owl taking 1.5 gnomes and the bluebird taking 1. If the owl and bluebird are each attached to the bag of gnomes the weight of that bag would be distributed evenly between the two birds. If we were both carrying something hanging on two strings there is no way that you could take more than half the load. Given this, the way you have it set up the bluebird would be taking a load of 1.25 gnomes putting it over capacity and the owl would have an uneven weight of 1.25 and 1.5 between legs. This is not a valid solution to the problem.

  • @fleet said: Koomazaz, your solution does not work. The owl and the bluebird at the right side do add up to 5 but between the owl and bluebird you have the owl taking 1.5 gnomes and the bluebird taking 1. If the owl and bluebird are each attached to the bag of gnomes the weight of that bag would be distributed evenly between the two birds. If we were both carrying something hanging on two strings there is no way that you could take more than half the load. Given this, the way you have it set up the bluebird would be taking a load of 1.25 gnomes putting it over capacity and the owl would have an uneven weight of 1.25 and 1.5 between legs. This is not a valid solution to the problem.



    In the actual solution, the owl carried that bag with both legs, and the mallard helps it with one of its legs. If what you said held water then there would be no correct way to carry a five gnome bag, regardless of the combination of birds.

  • I see what you're saying alexonfyre. In the solution that is accepted the owl is holding 3 on the one side, or 1.5 per leg, and the duck is holding 2 on the other. The way I was thinking about it, each rope should be carrying the same weight since they are all attached at the same point. Assuming the length and angle of all the ropes was the same then this would be true but I realize now that it is possible for different amounts of force to be carried by each string. The bag would be offset towards the stronger bird rather then hanging evenly between them. Of course, considering that the ropes are pulling at an angle, the birds would have to be able to lift more than the weight of the gnomes since there would be sideways forces that would add to the amount of force needed to lift the gnomes. That is a whole other issue though.

    The alternate solution should work if there is no rule stating that each bird must carry their maximum possible load or none at all. As it is, the rules only say that the load on a bird has to be even between both feet and this solution meets that requirement. It feels wrong to me :P, but technically this alternate solution should be correct given the rules.

  • @fleet said: I see what you're saying alexonfyre. In the solution that is accepted the owl is holding 3 on the one side, or 1.5 per leg, and the duck is holding 2 on the other. The way I was thinking about it, each rope should be carrying the same weight since they are all attached at the same point. Assuming the length and angle of all the ropes was the same then this would be true but I realize now that it is possible for different amounts of force to be carried by each string. The bag would be offset towards the stronger bird rather then hanging evenly between them. Of course, considering that the ropes are pulling at an angle, the birds would have to be able to lift more than the weight of the gnomes since there would be sideways forces that would add to the amount of force needed to lift the gnomes. That is a whole other issue though.

    The alternate solution should work if there is no rule stating that each bird must carry their maximum possible load or none at all. As it is, the rules only say that the load on a bird has to be even between both feet and this solution meets that requirement. It feels wrong to me :P, but technically this alternate solution should be correct given the rules.



    You phrase all of that like a student (not necessarily a bad thing.) Physically speaking, the tension on the ropes is equal to the force of gravity from the gnomes plus the equalizing lift from the birds, ipso facto, you can lift it so long as the total lift is greater than the total force due to gravity, no need to be even. The angles would even themselves out (though for the puzzle rules to hold true, they would have to be all perpendicular to the ground, not to mention the horizontal forces imposed by flight and... let's just leave the physics out of this one.)

  • @alexonfyre said: You phrase all of that like a student (not necessarily a bad thing.) Physically speaking, the tension on the ropes is equal to the force of gravity from the gnomes plus the equalizing lift from the birds, ipso facto, you can lift it so long as the total lift is greater than the total force due to gravity, no need to be even. The angles would even themselves out (though for the puzzle rules to hold true, they would have to be all perpendicular to the ground, not to mention the horizontal forces imposed by flight and... let's just leave the physics out of this one.)



    I locked on to the idea that the weight would have to be distributed evenly between each rope and it took a while to wrap my mind around why that wasn't the case. I agree that we should just leave the physics out of this one :P. We can just assume that all factors were taken into account when determining the load that each bird could carry.

    So, in the absence of a rule stating that each bird must carry a full load or none at all, I would have to agree that this solution is valid. I didn't think of doing it this way and my gut reaction when first seeing it was that it broke the rules, but that is not the case. This should be added as a correct answer or the rules should be adjusted to make this solution incorrect if it wasn't intended to work this way.

  • I got that puzzle right on first try. When puzzle started it was quite fast obvious that loading birds from left to right with bags from left to right. Puzzle would be solved.

  • @Clord said: I got that puzzle right on first try. When puzzle started it was quite fast obvious that loading birds from left to right with bags from left to right. Puzzle would be solved.



    Then you were lucky. If you read this thread, you will see that the issue we're having with this puzzle is that it isn't clear from reading the rules why leaving one bird out is a better solution than having two birds carry less than their maximum load.

  • Yup, had 3 or 4 false replies because I figured all birds HAD to be used, as before...

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