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Biff and Delorean

posted by zoitberg on - last edited - Viewed by 2.5K users

Hi everyone !

There was always two things in bttf2 the bothered me.
One is Biff and Delorean and second is Doc become some way commended by goverment (newspaper )

When Marty and Doc travel to the future, senior Biff spot the Delorean and instead of saying some trivial "WTF is this?" He KNEW that this was a Time machine, and knew how to set a clock, go 80 miles etc... Ha ! He even told his younger self that in the future Marty or Doc will go after him.

Question remains : How he knew this much about Delorean?! How he knew this "crazy, wild-eyed old man who claims to be a scientist" ?

In the 2rd part Doc shown Marty newspaper with text "Emmett Brown commended". I assume that in later years he told the world about time travels (and create a Institute of Future Technology <-- non canonical). Then we got two options:

1. Doc in second part (future) is still anonymous, he become recognizable after they alter Biff Hell Valley . In the end of third part when Marty asked Doc about the future Doc replied "we already been there" .

In this timeline (in the future) Biff dont know anything about time travels yet. Doc can build as many time machines as he want because in the future he is... First Citizen Brown (Eeevil Ending ;P )

2. Doc in second part (future) before he come back for Marty he learned that he was honored, he become recognizable person. This would explain that Biff knew what is "Delorean" . But in this time version we don't know how long Doc remained in the future ("Oh no ! Marty's son and his family are in trouble ! I must come back.. but before. Let pimp our Delorean with flying ambility and 18" rims .Yeaach") and.. How may things he know about .. THE FUTURE !!! ;)

There always bother me what "the status" (dead, live,famous, anonymous ect.) have Doc in 2015. For 100% Emmett that goes to the future in the end of first part search for future himself. What he learned? ;) Maybe in game it will be explained...

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Sorry if i made any grammar mistakes. English is not my native language :(

82 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
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    Jennifer Moderator

    @sn939 said: I don't think there would be a 'second version' of the trip, and certainly not one without Jennifer. When Doc returns from the future (whichever future!) it will be on the morning of October 26th 1985, at the precise moment when Marty and Jennifer are out admiring Marty's new truck. There's no reason why Doc WOULDN'T take Jennifer into the future IMO...and I believe that, at that point of time, Doc will ALWAYS have returned from the 2015 we saw in BTTF2 (i.e. the bad future where Marty Jr is in trouble and Marty's a loser).


    Doc needs to make sure he gets his second self to take the second Marty to the future for some reason (it doesn't necessarily have to be because of his son's incarceration) and Doc's second self doesn't have to arrive at the exact time frame as what occurred in the original timeline (since it isn't necessary for Jennifer to travel to 2015). The original Doc only has to guide the second Doc towards the pivotal events that caused the necessary time changes.

    @sn939 said: Yes, but Doc wouldn't KNOW that Marty was going to purchase the Sport's Almanac, or that Old Biff was going to steal the time machine...so there is no question of 'making sure' that those events happen. And Doc wouldn't have a reason to bring Marty to 2015 unless it was to help his son who is in trouble. The whole Almanac incident spun off purely by coincidence...


    It's true that the Doc in the circular time frame wouldn't know about the future, but the original Doc has a flying time train (and later DeLorean), and he would make sure that his second self finds something startling about the future in order to get Marty to 2015. As long as Marty is in close proximity to the antique shop, the almanac incident would still occur.

    @sn939 said: And the tombstone fading from the picture clearly indicates that no tombstone existed at the time that picture was taken in the new timeline (why the picture still exists is another matter altogether :P)


    As I said earlier in this thread, the fact that the picture of the grass exists without the tombstone is proof that time was still being written in regard to the tombstone. Doc clearly worries about time paradoxes, and he would know that the tombstone needs to exist in order for Marty to arrive in 1885. So, after Marty is back in 1985 Doc would erect a false tombstone in the exact spot (since Doc's death was expected, the undertaker would know where Doc was going to be buried). Doc's eccentricities would allow him to do weird things like this without the townspeople thinking it was out of character. And Doc's wealth would help with that too. ;)

    @sn939 said: Yeah, but Doc really can't always make sure the 'pivotal events' happen...not in every timeline. Take the Hell Valley timeline (1985-A) for instance. In that timeline, Doc KNOWS that Marty has to go back in time on October 26th 1985...but since he's locked up, and Marty's in Switzerland, there's no way to make that happen. And yet, there is no paradox.


    The time travel event must have occurred already in that timeline, since Marty travels back to 1955 from the Hell Valley timeline, and there is already a second Marty there and 1955 Doc is setting up the wires on the tower for the lightning to hit the time machine. So, because he knew that Marty had to travel back to 1955, Doc must have conducted his time travel experiment with Marty earlier than in the original timeline (probably because of the heat he had on him from government officials or Biff's goons (an incarceration for insanity likely wouldn't happen overnight) or because he knew that Marty was going to be sent to school in Switzerland).

    @sn939 said: Except that in the final timeline, 1986 Doc has no way of knowing that Marty is supposed to go back to 1931. He may have suspected at some point that Marty is his old friend 'Sonny Crockett' from 1931...but he couldn't be sure. He only figures it out once he sees the newspaper clipping and he'll only see that once he gets the Key to the City (which I assume is the day AFTER Marty goes back).


    Doc definitely doesn't know by the end of the events of the game, but he and Marty will be spending time together in the time machine and afterward, and the topic will most certainly be brought up. Then, Doc's paranoia (rightfully so) about paradoxes will kick in, and he'll get himself incarcerated in 1931 at a later point with the DeLorean with just himself and Einstein so the events would play out.

    @sn939 said: The way I see it, there are 2 Deloreans in Ep 5 which means there were 2 Doc's. Original Doc still gets arrested in 1931 and his Delorean travels to 1986. Marty goes back to 1931 in that Delorean. Final timeline Doc, who is still in 1986, then reads the newspaper clipping, puts two and two together, and travels back to 1931 in HIS Delorean to retrieve Marty.


    Yes, that's what happens. That's why I said the 1986 Doc is not the same Doc who traveled with Marty to 1931. He'd have to learn about the cause of the events that sent Marty to 1931 after the events of the game have happened since he wouldn't know them since he wasn't the Doc who experienced them.

  • I think we've already seen several timelines with paradoxes;

    -the entire biffhoric timeline is a giant paradox; as mentioned the initial 1955 time travel likely doesn't happen with marty in swizerland and doc in a mental institution.
    -the 2015 is heavily different. Biff is probably dead but even if he is alive, he is likely not washing cars. Griff crashes into the courthouse which is the Biff hotel in that timeline. Also Griff probably doesn't need to be planning any robberies (which was of the courthouse) if Biff is rich.

    BTTF part II does show the timeline as linear: In 1955 marty from part I still seems to fade out despite it now being confirmed lorraine and george are still marrying.

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    Jennifer Moderator

    @Michael J Fox is Canadian said: the entire biffhoric timeline is a giant paradox; as mentioned the initial 1955 time travel likely doesn't happen with marty in swizerland and doc in a mental institution.


    They had to have conducted the time experiment at some point, since by the rules of the Back to the Future universe, I don't think there's any way that Marty could see his duplicate in 1955 in the Biffhoric timeline without the time travel experiment having taken place (although, it would have had to have taken place earlier than the events of the first film). The ripple effect protecting Marty and Doc from the timeline changes would only effect the original Marty and Doc since the 1955 Marty and Doc would be of the Biffhoric timeline as explained by Doc in BTTF 2. Even as a paradox, the rules of the universe would prevent 1955 Marty from existing in the first place without the time travel experiment having taken place at some point in that timeline.

    @Michael J Fox is Canadian said: the 2015 is heavily different. Biff is probably dead but even if he is alive, he is likely not washing cars. Griff crashes into the courthouse which is the Biff hotel in that timeline. Also Griff probably doesn't need to be planning any robberies (which was of the courthouse) if Biff is rich.


    That one's likely to be very different, yes. In the strictest sense, that would be a paradox since Doc and Marty probably never were in 2015 in the Biffhoric timeline (and even if the trip did happen since I'm sure there were enough horrors in Marty's son's future for Doc to bring him there to fix even without the robbery, Biff would be dead at that point and even if he weren't he wouldn't want the almanac since he already made his fortune).

    But, in the rules of the Back to the Future universe, it isn't a paradox. With the time ripple effect, any paradoxes were avoided because Doc and Marty changed the timeline to prevent the Biffhoric timeline from ever occurring before the time ripple hit the original Marty and Doc.

    In the new timeline, Marty and Doc would be able to travel to 2015 (and would have to, since Doc was alive and well in the 1890's as evidenced by Jules and Verne), so any paradoxes were prevented.

  • @Jennifer said: They had to have conducted the time experiment at some point, since by the rules of the Back to the Future universe, I don't think there's any way that Marty could see his duplicate in 1955 in the Biffhoric timeline without the time travel experiment having taken place (although, it would have had to have taken place earlier than the events of the first film). The ripple effect protecting Marty and Doc from the timeline changes would only effect the original Marty and Doc since the 1955 Marty and Doc would be of the Biffhoric timeline as explained by Doc in BTTF 2. Even as a paradox, the rules of the universe would prevent 1955 Marty from existing in the first place without the time travel experiment having taken place at some point in that timeline.

    I've heard this theory before, and I don't buy it. The second Marty in 1955 is Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1. His actions are IDENTICAL to those of 'our' Marty. He couldn't possibly be Hell Valley Marty. Also, Hell Valley Marty likely wouldn't even KNOW Doc, far from being willing to participate in a time travel experiment with him.

    The way this works is that Old Biff's trip to 1955 caused the timeline to diverge, resulting in the alternate Hell Valley reality...however the divergence occurred AFTER BTTF1 Marty's arrival in 1955. BTTF1 Marty had already spent a week in 1955 before Old Biff's arrivals...everything he had done in 1955 before November 12th was a part of history already. Old Biff giving himself the Almanac couldn't change whatever had happened BEFORE his arrival. Hence, the second Marty would still be present in 1955 in the background alongside 'our' Marty.

    @Jennifer said: That one's likely to be very different, yes. In the strictest sense, that would be a paradox since Doc and Marty probably never were in 2015 in the Biffhoric timeline (and even if the trip did happen since I'm sure there were enough horrors in Marty's son's future for Doc to bring him there to fix even without the robbery, Biff would be dead at that point and even if he weren't he wouldn't want the almanac since he already made his fortune).

    But, in the rules of the Back to the Future universe, it isn't a paradox. With the time ripple effect, any paradoxes were avoided because Doc and Marty changed the timeline to prevent the Biffhoric timeline from ever occurring before the time ripple hit the original Marty and Doc.

    In the new timeline, Marty and Doc would be able to travel to 2015 (and would have to, since Doc was alive and well in the 1890's as evidenced by Jules and Verne), so any paradoxes were prevented.

    Wait a second...it still WAS a paradox...because Marty and Doc fixing the timeline was NOT predestined, or even anticipated.

    From the moment Old Biff leaves 2015 for 1955, up till the moment before Marty and Doc leave 1985-A for 1955, the Hell Valley timeline is pretty much the ONLY possible timeline. It is a timeline where Old Biff showed up in 1955 to give himself the Almanac, but where in 2015, he doesn't even exist to steal the Almanac and the Delorean in the FIRST place! That is a paradox and BTTF does allow for such paradoxes.

    You're right about the fact that the time ripple would eventually hit original Marty and Doc and erase them from existence. We already saw that happening to Old Biff. Let us assume that Marty and Doc, for some reason were stuck in 1985-A, and the ripple effect eventually erased them. This is what the final timeline would have looked like-

    On November 5th 1955, Twin Pines Marty would arrive and spend a week in 1955. Then, on November 12th 1955, Lone Pine Old Biff would arrive and give Young Biff the Almanac, and then leave. Twin Pines Marty would leave later that night when the lightning struck the Clock Tower. In 1958, Biff would start gambling and get rich. In 1973, George would be killed and Biff would marry Lorraine. In 1983, Doc would be committed BEFORE he could build the time machine. Then, late at night on October 26th 1985, Lone Pine Marty and Doc would arrive in the flying Delorean from 2015 and place Lone Pine Jennifer on the porch and be shocked by the new timeline. Eventually, they would be erased from existence. In 1996, Biff is killed by Lorraine. In 2015, Lone Pine Old Biff returns from 1955 and is erased from existence. At the moment of his arrival, Lone Pine Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien would materialise on the streets of Hilldale, and then leave fro 1985.

    This hinges on the idea that while there is one TRUE timeline, time travelers from previous timelines can be shifted to the newer timelines unchanged.

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    Jennifer Moderator

    @sn939 said: The way this works is that Old Biff's trip to 1955 caused the timeline to diverge, resulting in the alternate Hell Valley reality...however the divergence occurred AFTER BTTF1 Marty's arrival in 1955. BTTF1 Marty had already spent a week in 1955 before Old Biff's arrivals...everything he had done in 1955 before November 12th was a part of history already. Old Biff giving himself the Almanac couldn't change whatever had happened BEFORE his arrival. Hence, the second Marty would still be present in 1955 in the background alongside 'our' Marty.


    I hadn't thought of the fact that the changes occurred after Marty and Doc went back to 1955, so this theory does make sense. And Back to the Future: The Game makes it even more plausible, since Doc was in the 1931 picture despite the fact that Citizen Brown had never even built the time machine at that point.

    @sn939 said: From the moment Old Biff leaves 2015 for 1955, up till the moment before Marty and Doc leave 1985-A for 1955, the Hell Valley timeline is pretty much the ONLY possible timeline. It is a timeline where Old Biff showed up in 1955 to give himself the Almanac, but where in 2015, he doesn't even exist to steal the Almanac and the Delorean in the FIRST place! That is a paradox and BTTF does allow for such paradoxes.


    You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.

  • @Jennifer said: I hadn't thought of the fact that the changes occurred after Marty and Doc went back to 1955, so this theory does make sense. And Back to the Future: The Game makes it even more plausible, since Doc was in the 1931 picture despite the fact that Citizen Brown had never even built the time machine at that point.

    Yeah, you're right. When Episode 3 came out, a lot of people thought original Doc being in a photo in Citizen Brown's office was a mistake...but that's not true. The photo was taken in 1931...Original Doc was erased when he returned to 1986. Original Doc's erasure does not change the fact that he WAS present in 1931 and did appear in the picture. Now, had Marty had a picture of Doc from 1986, then Doc would have disappeared from the picture...

    @Jennifer said: You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.

    Well obviously, that's not a scenario we would EVER have in a BTTF story...cuz if ALL the time travelers were erased, that means 'our' Marty no longer exists and the story is effectively over...But I don't think there would be a paradox. All the time travelers would be erased and the Delorean would be erased...but people will still remember having interacted with the time travelers, and the time travelers will still have performed those actions which led to their erasure.

    Actually, a paradox can only really adversely affect the universe if you assume that the future can affect the past WITHOUT time travel. In the classic Grandfather paradox scenario, if the time traveler kills his grandfather, he will never be born. Fair enough. But if he is never born and never travels back in time...will the fact that someone DID appear in the past and kill the grandfather change, even WITHOUT anyone traveling back in time? Cuz the only way a paradox can cause damage is if, at the moment when the time traveler is SUPPOSED to travel back in time and fails to do so, the universe either explodes, or somehow 'snaps back' to the original timeline and repeats the two alternating timelines in a perpetual loop...

  • @Jennifer said: I hadn't thought of the fact that the changes occurred after Marty and Doc went back to 1955, so this theory does make sense. And Back to the Future: The Game makes it even more plausible, since Doc was in the 1931 picture despite the fact that Citizen Brown had never even built the time machine at that point.


    You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.


    The same thing happens in the second film; Biff is likely dead in 2015 in the biffhoric timeline yet we still clearly see old biff show up in 1955

  • @Michael J Fox is Canadian said: The same thing happens in the second film; Biff is likely dead in 2015 in the biffhoric timeline yet we still clearly see old biff show up in 1955

    Apparently, that's the reason they deleted the scene of Old Biff fading from existence...because the Bobs felt that audiences wouldn't be able to understand how Old Biff could appear in 1955, when he was seen being erased from existence in 2015...

  • @sn939 said: Apparently, that's the reason they deleted the scene of Old Biff fading from existence...because the Bobs felt that audiences wouldn't be able to understand how Old Biff could appear in 1955, when he was seen being erased from existence in 2015...

    That and they couldn't really explain it. They had the chalkboard scene to illustrate to the audience explaining what is happening. But they had no way of explaining biff disappearing without doc and marty seeing it.

  • @Michael J Fox is Canadian said: That and they couldn't really explain it. They had the chalkboard scene to illustrate to the audience explaining what is happening. But they had no way of explaining biff disappearing without doc and marty seeing it.

    Agreed...they couldn't really explain the whole 'he was shot by Lorraine in 1996' thing on-screen. Though I suppose people COULD have simply figured out that Biff messed up the space-time continuum (like Marty did in BTTF1) and so was consequently erased from existence somehow.

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