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Season 3 may have been the last

posted by FrankT on - last edited - Viewed by 1.4K users

Well correct me if I'm wrong... but I fear that Season 3 may well have been the last Sam & Max season, and a Season 4 isn't being planned. :( Well how else can we explain the sudden appearance of all the living characters in the finale?! And I'm taking into account the fact that it was made a few years after S2 - maybe it was a comeback special or something! Your thoughts?

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  • @Tora Newton Y. said: :/
    EASIER puzzles maybe, but still puzzles. They were just as much puzzles as the ones in other Telltale games I've played.
    Look, I wasn't raised with Sierra or LucasArts's moon logic bullcrap. To me, "get cat hair to make a fake mustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a mustache" isn't a puzzle, it's a brain aneurysm.
    I'll stick to Sam & Max and Back to the Future with their "non-puzzles" according to you then, thanks very much.



    I never said Sam & Max doesn't have puzzles. In fact I believe, season's 1 and 2 in particular have some really great puzzles, so don't be accusing me of saying Sam & Max has non-puzzles. The Telltale games with weak, gimmie puzzles are BttF, Jurassic Park, and The Walking Dead.

    Now, the "get cat hair to make a fake moustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a moustache" puzzle is renowned as one of the worst and most convoluted puzzles ever conceived. I get that you are trying to make a point but you seem to be looking at this in black and white. Not all old adventure game puzzles are that hard. Difficulty is not always either Back to the Future level easy or one of the hardest puzzles in existence. The truth is that most adventure games puzzles fit somewhere in between this (I would argue all of them do). And at any rate, I don't believe that adventure games have to have illogically hard puzzles to be good. The problem with BttF isn't that it is considered stupidly easy compared to older adventure games, it's that it is considered stupidly easy by Telltale's own standards. (At that point anyway, the bar since then has been lowered considerably.)

    Now, I could spend a lot of time explaining why the puzzles in BttF are a broken, player insulting mess, but why would I when Rather Dashing has already done it for me. Now, if you still like the game then all the power to you, but please, don't go around saying that the game has many puzzles and that they are really good. That's just wrong, completely and truly wrong.

  • @Woodsyblue said: I never said Sam & Max doesn't have puzzles. In fact I believe, season's 1 and 2 in particular have some really great puzzles, so don't be accusing me of saying Sam & Max has non-puzzles. The Telltale games with weak, gimmie puzzles are BttF, Jurassic Park, and The Walking Dead.

    Now, the "get cat hair to make a fake moustache to impersonate a guy who doesn't even have a moustache" puzzle is renowned as one of the worst and most convoluted puzzles ever conceived. I get that you are trying to make a point but you seem to be looking at this in black and white. Not all old adventure game puzzles are that hard. Difficulty is not always either Back to the Future level easy or one of the hardest puzzles in existence. The truth is that most adventure games puzzles fit somewhere in between this (I would argue all of them do). And at any rate, I don't believe that adventure games have to have illogically hard puzzles to be good. The problem with BttF isn't that it is considered stupidly easy compared to older adventure games, it's that it is considered stupidly easy by Telltale's own standards. (At that point anyway, the bar since then has been lowered considerably.)

    Now, I could spend a lot of time explaining why the puzzles in BttF are a broken, player insulting mess, but why would I when Rather Dashing has already done it for me. Now, if you still like the game then all the power to you, but please, don't go around saying that the game has many puzzles and that they are really good. That's just wrong, completely and truly wrong.



    Sorry if I seemed aggressive, it was late at night and the image macro response made me feel a little insulted when I would've preferred a comment much like this one explaining why you had a different opinion about BttF's puzzles. I know the Gabriel Knight 3 puzzle was a harsh example (probably the harshest example I could possibly give), I was mostly just a little miffed in that comment which is why I mentioned it. I know it's not as black and white as that.

    I probably also spoke out of ignorance and shouldn't have said anything about BttF's puzzles as a whole, because I've actually only played the first episode, and was judging by that. But I very much enjoyed the first episode and the puzzles in it, even if they maybe were slightly easier, I never found them to be TOO easy. There were a few I had to really think about.
    I can't say really say the same for the other episodes though because I haven't had the chance to play them yet, so unfortunately I'm going to have to take a raincheck on reading Rather Dashing's post until I have the opportunity to play the rest of the game so I don't get spoiled.

    I respect your different opinion about the game and its puzzles, and I apologize again for saying a couple of dumb things rather rudely. After all I have opinions I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me about, mostly about Sam & Max having a few instances of absolutely atrocious puzzles (though not the too easy kind, the convoluted Sierra moon logic kind), like Act 3 of Episode 303 and the entirety of Episode 202. Episode 202 is horrendous in my opinion because its puzzles border on Gabriel Knight levels of "This puzzle makes no damn sense." Paint a gong in Stinky's Diner red by throwing a SNAIL at it? REALLY?

  • I love the difficulty level of the puzzles in the Sam and Max games. 1 and 2 were better in that aspect that season 3, but still.

    BttF has no puzzles. It's just a movie made of cutscenes with some "hey go do this" things in the middle.

    I love it. But sorry, that's the way it is.

  • @crfh said: I love the difficulty level of the puzzles in the Sam and Max games. 1 and 2 were better in that aspect that season 3, but still.

    BttF has no puzzles. It's just a movie made of cutscenes with some "hey go do this" things in the middle.

    I love it. But sorry, that's the way it is.



    Wow, this thread is now making me feel like I'm an idiot who must be ridiculously bad at adventure games, because I actually had to think a few times in Back to the Future Episode 1.
    Maybe you're all just too good, having been raised on older adventure games?
    'Cause, yeah, my introduction to adventure gaming was through The NeverhoOd (which came out in 1996, but I didn't hear of it or play it until 2007) and then Telltale Games, so once again emphasizing I didn't grow up with or build my brain for adventure games around LucasArts and Sierra and the absolutely ridiculously absurd logic and difficulties those games often presented.
    I've gone back and played games like Sam & Max Hit the Road and the first two Monkey Island games from LucasArts, but I never would have gotten through them on my own without my friends giving me hints or looking up walkthroughs.

  • @crfh said: I love the difficulty level of the puzzles in the Sam and Max games. 1 and 2 were better in that aspect that season 3, but still.

    BttF has no puzzles. It's just a movie made of cutscenes with some "hey go do this" things in the middle.

    I love it. But sorry, that's the way it is.



    I wouldn't say it had *no* puzzles. There were a few, but they weren't nearly as complex as those in Sam & Max or Monkey Island, so you didn't get the same sense of satisfaction when you solved them. The most difficult ones that stumped me for a short while were recording Kid Tannen on the dictaphone while you're up the gazebo, and getting into the Soup Kitchen's basement (both in the first episode, I think). There were certainly a /lot/ of "do this to fill in time between cutscenes", which is why I think BTTF wasn't as a good PnC adventure game as Telltale's previous efforts, but it was still enjoyable to play.

    Jurassic Park had like two puzzles in the entire season (e.g. rearranging the rollercoaster carts) and the rest was "Press X to not die". (Note: I died, a lot). Definitely not a PnC adventure game, but it was still fun to play.

    I do love the Sam & Max level of puzzles - they're complex enough that multiple locations/items are required, or a chain of puzzles, but not so difficult that you can't work them out just by sitting down and thinking about what you can do with what you have. It's immensely satisfying when you work out a puzzle solution, laugh about it's absurdity (and yet it totally makes sense in the Sam & Max world), and then try it, and laugh again because of how the characters go about it and what happens next.

  • @Tora Newton Y. said: Sorry if I seemed aggressive, it was late at night and the image macro response made me feel a little insulted when I would've preferred a comment much like this one explaining why you had a different opinion about BttF's puzzles. I know the Gabriel Knight 3 puzzle was a harsh example (probably the harshest example I could possibly give), I was mostly just a little miffed in that comment which is why I mentioned it. I know it's not as black and white as that.



    I'm sorry, the image was quite rude. I just didn't know quite how else to react to that particular statement. I've seen plenty of people defend BttF on it's own merits but for someone to actually say that the puzzles are very good... at first I thought you were trolling.

    @Tora Newton Y. said: I probably also spoke out of ignorance and shouldn't have said anything about BttF's puzzles as a whole, because I've actually only played the first episode, and was judging by that. But I very much enjoyed the first episode and the puzzles in it, even if they maybe were slightly easier, I never found them to be TOO easy. There were a few I had to really think about.
    I can't say really say the same for the other episodes though because I haven't had the chance to play them yet, so unfortunately I'm going to have to take a raincheck on reading Rather Dashing's post until I have the opportunity to play the rest of the game so I don't get spoiled.

    I respect your different opinion about the game and its puzzles, and I apologize again for saying a couple of dumb things rather rudely. After all I have opinions I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me about, mostly about Sam & Max having a few instances of absolutely atrocious puzzles (though not the too easy kind, the convoluted Sierra moon logic kind), like Act 3 of Episode 303 and the entirety of Episode 202. Episode 202 is horrendous in my opinion because its puzzles border on Gabriel Knight levels of "This puzzle makes no damn sense." Paint a gong in Stinky's Diner red by throwing a SNAIL at it? REALLY?

    There is a logic to Sam & Max puzzles but it's a different kind of logic. It's something you have to get used to. You have to train yourself into thinking in a different kind of way and pay attention to things you wouldn't normally pay attention to.

    The snail puzzle does actually make sense in the context of the universe. Look at that episode, to get to that point you have to hit many different coloured gongs and they all bring up colour-coordinated portals. When you find the snail Sam makes a point of saying that it a red trail. So we have an established connection with coloured gongs and portals, a red portal that needs to be moved, an unpainted gong in Stinkey's Diner, and a sea snail that leaves a trail not unlike red paint. It's hard, but it's not illogical in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is. The clues are there, they're just not very obvious.

    Some people only play adventure games for the humour and the story but there are those of us who like the challenge as well. I freely admit that there are some adventure game puzzles out there that are completely convoluted and non-nonsensical, and that can be both off-putting and frustrating, but there is nothing more satisfying than that a-ha moment of figuring out a well designed puzzle. That's what the new Telltale games have been missing in a big way.

    One of the big problems with games like BttF is that they don't give the player a great deal of control, only the illusion of control. Sure, you might be able to walk around the streets of Hill Valley but it's mostly just show. Clickable hot spots and things you can interact with are few and far between, and the gameplay is mostly just go where they tell you to go and do what they tell you to do with very little for you to actually figure out. It's just cut scene, followed by segment of limited interaction, followed by cut scene.

    It's very easy not to see how shallow it is. I didn't notice it after only playing the first episode either. It has a faster pace than most adventure games and you're usually not in scenes for very long. It can feel like you are just solving the puzzles quickly but if you stop and look hard at the puzzle you'll find there is really nothing to them. Again, this all goes back to limited interactivity.

    @Tora Newton Y. said: I do love the Sam & Max level of puzzles - they're complex enough that multiple locations/items are required, or a chain of puzzles, but not so difficult that you can't work them out just by sitting down and thinking about what you can do with what you have. It's immensely satisfying when you work out a puzzle solution, laugh about it's absurdity (and yet it totally makes sense in the Sam & Max world), and then try it, and laugh again because of how the characters go about it and what happens next.

    Perfectly put :D

  • @Woodsyblue said: I'm sorry, the image was quite rude. I just didn't know quite how else to react to that particular statement. I've seen plenty of people defend BttF on it's own merits but for someone to actually say that the puzzles are very good... at first I thought you were trolling.



    It's fine, I forgive you! Yeah, I wasn't trolling, I must just suck at adventure games because I had to think about a few puzzles in BttF Episode 1. I didn't mean to say they were GREAT puzzles, but they weren't BAD, at least I didn't think so, so that's just what I meant by they were "good." They weren't too easy (to me) or totally nonsensical. Satisfactory, I guess, maybe is a better word?

    @Woodsyblue said: The snail puzzle does actually make sense in the context of the universe. Look at that episode, to get to that point you have to hit many different coloured gongs and they all bring up colour-coordinated portals. When you find the snail Sam makes a point of saying that it a red trail. So we have an established connection with coloured gongs and portals, a red portal that needs to be moved, an unpainted gong in Stinkey's Diner, and a sea snail that leaves a trail not unlike red paint. It's hard, but it's not illogical in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is. The clues are there, they're just not very obvious.
    Some people only play adventure games for the humour and the story but there are those of us who like the challenge as well. I freely admit that there are some adventure game puzzles out there that are completely convoluted and non-nonsensical, and that can be both off-putting and frustrating, but there is nothing more satisfying than that a-ha moment of figuring out a well designed puzzle. That's what the new Telltale games have been missing in a big way.

    The snail and gong puzzle DEFINITELY isn't completely batcrap insane in the way that Gabriel Knight puzzle is, but to me, it felt like borderline to that type of ridiculous logic. It... makes sense, in a WAY, but it's a stretch because though it's hinted at, it's not hinted at very WELL. After you paint the gong red even Sam points out how he didn't think that would actually work! It's absurd to point where I'm pretty sure Telltale themselves realized it by including that line.
    Humor and story is what I do admit I enjoy most out of adventure games, but I love a good puzzle too, pretty evident by the fact some of my all time favorite other video games not made by Telltale are also puzzle games or puzzle-based adventure games (examples: The NeverhoOd as I mentioned earlier, Valve's Portal games and ATLUS's Catherine). Sam & Max usually has FANTASTIC puzzles and that's just another bullet point on my enormous list of reasons why I love the series, but every now and then I do feel it's been guilty of having some I could just not wrap my brain around in any conceivable manner. And that's really frustrating to me, because Sam & Max does have such good humor and story, I really get immersed in it when playing... so when I get stuck it takes me right out of the experience. Nothing makes me madder than when this awesome and hilarious story comes to a grinding halt just because I can't solve a puzzle. That's usually why if I can't figure it out after like 15 minutes or so, I look up what I'm supposed to do, and don't force myself to go and try and think about it for hours.

    I can't at all agree Telltale's been lacking in well-designed puzzles lately, though. Sam & Max: The Devil's Playhouse was hands down the best season (and also the best game Telltale has ever made, but why specifically is for another post) and I wasn't dissatisfied with Back to the Future Episode 1. If the Puzzle Agent games count, I also love those games and their puzzles. I haven't played Jurassic Park or The Walking Dead, but I know the former was just a bad game in general (hey, everybody has their screw-ups) while I've heard excellent things about the latter so far and hope to play it soon.

  • To each their own! I *like* going to sleep with a puzzle gnawing on my brain. I finished each episode of BttF in a couple of hours tops.

    The red gong thing wasn't hard to deduct for me at all, but painting the amulet red wasn't something easy for me as I didn't figure out it was a hexagon.

  • I'm not a very good puzzle solver. Though I did kind of guess how to solve the red gong thingy.

  • @Tora Newton Y. said: ... I think you might have some weird ideas of what's a puzzle and what's not. There were LOTS of puzzles in Back to the Future. Lots of really good ones, too!
    Maybe you're just too good at them, adventures games are too easy for you now. :P


    I am definitely not that good at puzzles. :p But back to the future had some of the easier puzzles for me and often i felt the game gave me too many hints even before trying to solve the puzzle.
    And if you happen to get stuck then it often tells you straight out.
    The puzzles in tales of monkey island was much more challenging for me, even though those were also easier than the first monkey island games.

    Another thing i found lacking was the inventory and how there was no puzzles that lets you combine objects.

    I have nothing against hints if it was possible to turn them off completely though.

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