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Episode 3 ruined everything

posted by falcon168 on - last edited - Viewed by 1.5K users

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

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    CTP

    @LokiHavok said: Well then you know more than most about how these types of games are formatted and executed. To expect a plethora of branching storylines is really beyond the scope a traditional graphic adventure game.



    I don't think anyone expected a "plethora" of branching storylines, but from the advertising ("Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series.") I would at least expect a handful of those and certainly differences in the survior group at the end of EP3.

    Also, I completely disagree with your statement that branching storylines are beyond the scope of a traditional graphic adventure game. Did you ever play "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis"? That's a great example, don't you think?
    I think adventures are one of the most suitable game types to host a branching story. It may be more complicated than an interactive movie but certainly easier than a RPG.
    Admittedly, it is a lot of work but if TTG is not willing to put this effort in their games they should at least not advertise it. I'd be happy with a linear adventure TWD...

    CTP

  • @SonnyN18 said: I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

    Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

    Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

    Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

    Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

    My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

    If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

    You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.



    This

  • I think the choices you do are more of psychologically nature and I love that.

    Why have so many people choosed to let the last maneater live? I killed both because if one live he will just continue to eat human flesh and kill people for food.

    Why did so many people stop to punsh him after the camera changed position and you saw that everybody is looking at you?


    Everybody in this thread is more or less right. The decisions you make does not influence the story a lot but as said I love this psychologically decisions a lot. Shot her/him, safe him/her fight him/her....

  • Eh, would it really have been that much effort keeping Doug/Carley around? Just recording more dialogue and giving them excuses to not be involved in big setpieces, like in episode 2. Or at least make it so they can leave the group instead of dying.

    Yes, it's emotionally effective, but still, it feels pointless that both of them end up dead no matter what. I guess I'll get over it though.

  • Did someone mention Blade Runner the game?

    The game is affected by both your choices and the game's choices set before you. This gives not just the ability to make choices but also the ability to react on the fly to choices set before you. In one game you might be shooting a replicant, in another it might be a human. They may run or turn and fight. You may be able to kill a character now and save yourself a fight later. It all depends on what elements the game has set and what you choose to act upon.

    But that's a different game and neither here nor there.

  • @dubesor said: Totally wrong. I don't want infinite choices. But yes I want 1 or 2 MAJOR choices that actually matter. So far, not a single choice -after 60% of the game 3/5 episodes- mattered. Nothing had any impact. At all.

    We don't want every decision to completely branch the story and telltale having to make 50 different cutscenes etc. But at least make the player feel in 1 or 2 occasions that his choice actually DID matter. And DID change something. Because as of now there are no signs of this ever happening and that is a huge disappointment.



    Major agree! I posted about this in another thread earlier. I am not talking about total control and infinite choices but dang let SOMETHING count!

    My biggest beef at the moment is the whole pharmacy thing. Excerpts from my previous post:

    The girl at the pharmacy. (I left her for bait) What if when you left her, the story unfolded as it did and you had time to get supplies. OR If you shot her, you were unable to get supplies and had to leave without anything to save your lives. OR you save her and she comes back to the group where you find she's bitten and she turns.

    Any of those three scenarios were imminently doable, gave the player an actual impactful choice and didn't bloat the story or create long term contradictions to the main plot.

    It wouldn't have been difficult to set an if then parameter/variable regarding the obtained supplies that WOULD have made a difference in the rest of the series.

    WHAT THE HELL was the point of counting how many supplies you were able to collect? In the end, you didn't even get to keep them. So why the hell waste my time telling me how many items I picked up? THAT was Not necessary! I really thought the number and type of things I got would make a difference.....that was the biggest dog chasing tail bullshit I've experienced in a while. See, this is my problem with this choice illusion thing...they actually wasted the time to code THAT when it didn't make one whit of difference rather than code something that did.

  • @cormoran said: It seems that when some people hear "your choices matter" they expect far too much, like a game that could begin with Lee riding in the back of a cop car and ending up with Lee fighting Cthulhu in space or Lee getting drunk with pirates at the bottom of the ocean or Lee in a triple threat wrestling match against Gandalf and Darth Vader for the World Heavyweight Title at Wrestlemania or Lee winning the Tour de France eleven times in a row with two balls, no drugs and Clem in a trailer on the back depending on their choices in the game.

    The choices matter, but they don't have to matter throughout the entire game. Videogames haven't evolved far enough to allow for the millions of permutations some of you seem to want. In the end game devs have to set boundaries.

    You want complete choice? pick up a DnD rulebook and start a pen and paper roleplay.



    Gee, that'd be impressive, except for the fact that TTG can't even get my choices to carry from one episode to the next (despite their claims to the contrary). TTG are the ones who've been pumping the CHOICES MATTER!! business all along, and since they can't master the basic carryover mechanices of making choices matter, they get a failing grade in their self-professed most important subject.

  • @HelloCthulhu said: I would disagree that choices was ever billed as the most important feature in the game. It simply one of the features that makes it different than most games. Even most adventure games.

    This is factually ludicrous. TTG is constantly pimping "CHOICE MATTERS!!" in everyone one of their ads and promos.

  • @HelloCthulhu said: I think given the format for the game, it would be near impossible to accommodate all the choices over the term of 5 episodes for the reason I gave before: the butterfly effect. You make 1 choice that changes things per episode, hypothetically.


    [LIST]
    [*]That means that in episode 1 they need to program an alternate timeline for everything in the game from that point on in episode 1. Not that bad so far, but still a lot of programming work.
    [*]Then in episode 2, they need to create 2 completely different paths based on your choice in episode 1 and work it into a choice in episode 2. Starting to get more muddy.
    [*]Then in episode 3 they now need to make 4 different paths for the game.
    [/LIST]
    Do you see how it gets to be impossible to meet their deadlines given only 1 choice per episode? Now if you are talking about cosmetic changes, like the hoodie, They did give you one of those in this episode: her hair. If you are talking about more than cosmetic changes, you are getting much more into complicated territories.




    I dont think its getting so much imposible if they just make 2 paths per episode. They can still continue with 2 paths in episode 3 where it just use your choices from ep1,2...

  • @GamingDragon316 said: Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies



    Are you fucking serious? Almost everyone dies in Episode 3, no matter what. Carley/Doug, Duck, Katjaa, and Lilly has the choice to be thrown out.

    I understand the point of some people that you can't control other people, but do you have any idea how frustrating it is to see your favourite character die without being able to do anything, and if you play through the game multiple times you have to see those scenes EVERY time?
    :mad:

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