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[Spoilers - Ep. 3] In defence of Ben

posted by Googolplexbyte on - last edited - Viewed by 842 users

Wasn't Ben just preventing the inevitable? Like Eagle hair is paraphrase as having said, "the second the dairy farm stopped bandits would get us instead".

If not for Ben, the bandits would've got us right at the end of ep. 2. Sure the secrecy was fucking stupid, but lee's no one to judge others for secrecy.

It's completely Lilly's fault really, if she hadn't started a gun fight with an army of bandits attracting an army of dead, everyone could got out of there at there own pace. Plus stealing's hardly punishable by death, she'd gone crazy. Was she still nuts later in the comic?

Also it was kind of inevitable doug/carley would've died they'd taken a bit of a backseat in the story.

And honestly what other choice was there, it was probably a deal made at gunpoint considering bandits and all. Plus we raided the entire pharmacy and it was time to leave any way.

Plus even if I were wrong in my opinion, the game should still have the decency to let me show it in game rather than forcing me to be an ass to Ben.

191 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • I understand that Ben was afraid of Lilly but he could of easily gone to Lee before he even started the deal and let Lee know what was going on. Lee could've gently brought it up to the group and they could of discussed it.

    I am mad that his secret inadvertently got three of my group (all of them favorites (( and yes I liked Duck before liking Duck was cool))) killed but I don't hold it against him. He was in a tough situation and he probably saved more lives than was lost. My Lee doesn't even threaten him, just asks why. My Lee is going to make him step up though. After losing Carly (snif snif) and with Kenny down in the dumps, he has to.

  • @zapphoman said: After losing Carly (snif snif) and with Kenny down in the dumps, he has to.



    Agreed. He's gotta grow up and grow a pair. Also, communication is a problem in the group - no one talks to each other. Secrets kill. :(

  • @Xarne said: No, its to fight for the opposite point of view even when you know its wrong, for the sake of arguement, thats why its the Devil's advocate :)
    Would you have done the same thing in his place? :)



    To advocate is to "support" or "argue in favor of". Playing "devil's advocate" is not because you "know" or even think it's wrong - it's because you think that there is value in the argument itself. It forces you to consider the other point of view, and how it may be (in part or in whole) correct or incorrect. Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own. In this case, I don't believe we can place all of the fault with Ben, I think we should look at his actions as a mere symptom of the cause - the overwhelming lack of trust and comradery that this group has displayed.

    Now, I've already said how I would have felt - and I think the logical progression of what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests, because apart from letting me stay, nobody else was going to do that for me. Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits - confiding to the group could have possibly meant that they disagreed with him, and nothing would be done. Lilly's behavior did nothing but to DISCOURAGE Ben from coming forward with first his predicament, and next with his mistake.

  • @Sisterofshane said: To advocate is to "support" or "argue in favor of". Playing "devil's advocate" is not because you "know" or even think it's wrong - it's because you think that there is value in the argument itself. It forces you to consider the other point of view, and how it may be (in part or in whole) correct or incorrect. Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own. In this case, I don't believe we can place all of the fault with Ben, I think we should look at his actions as a mere symptom of the cause - the overwhelming lack of trust and comradery that this group has displayed.

    Now, I've already said how I would have felt - and I think the logical progression of what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests, because apart from letting me stay, nobody else was going to do that for me. Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits - confiding to the group could have possibly meant that they disagreed with him, and nothing would be done. Lilly's behavior did nothing but to DISCOURAGE Ben from coming forward with first his predicament, and next with his mistake.



    haha, it was a yes or no question: If you didnt want to answer the question thats cool- but dont dance me around :) And your definition of DA is incorrect:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devil's+advocate
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

  • @Xarne said: haha, it was a yes or no question: If you didnt want to answer the question thats cool- but dont dance me around :) And your definition of DA is incorrect.



    "The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position"

    Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own.

    Straight from wikipedia, with what I said underneath.

    And...

    "...what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests...Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits"

    Don't know how I could have been any clearer than that.

  • @Sisterofshane said: "The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position"

    Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own.

    Straight from wikipedia, with what I said underneath.

    And...

    "...what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests...Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits"

    Don't know how I could have been any clearer than that.



    ah, Im sorry, I meant straight answers. Not rhetoric; you sound like you're on Cspan. :) "Yes" / "No" - those are appropriate responses to a yes/no type question. That answer was as clear as shower-pane glass.

    Wikipedia states:
    "a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument."
    I didnt see anything you typed as a DA in there,its weird cause this is where I went first before I asked you. Maybe there are 2 wikipedias?

    Dictionary.com states:
    "a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination."

  • Episode 1, if you talked to Ben when he arrived, he stated he wished he could have done more. From that statement, his actions aren't all that surprising, cause and effect. He had no concept where his actions would lead and therefore lacks culpability. It's the difference between man slaughter and first degree murder.

  • That only works if the rules apply... the rules go out the door when a ZA strikes.

    So the rules are subjective. Some say he did no wrong, and others (like me) say he did - so he's screwed or not screwed on a case by case basis.

  • IMO, the whole first part of the episode at the motel showed why it's too dangerous and completely unacceptable to make deals behind everyone else's back. Because Ben didn't talk to the group first everyone's lives were placed in danger once Lee found the stolen supplies. The bandits were able to get inside the motel and had everyone at their mercy until Lee and Lilly took care of them. I'm also assuming Ben let those bandits in at the first place since there were no sounds of fighting when they first came in and all their previous attacks failed. And then the walkers came because they were attracted by the gunfire and bit Duck. Also, his secret deal gave the group a false sense of security since it looked like the bandit problem was over, if Ben informed the group before or immediately after making the deal the group could've debated whether to continue with the deal, prepare for further attacks, or leave as soon as the RV is ready.

    The way I see it, Ben's actions led to the deaths Duck and Katjaa, the loss of whatever supplies they left at the motel at the time, and is partially responsible for Carley's/Doug's death and Lilly going crazy as well. I have no doubt that Ben acted with the best intentions but that's not enough in the ZA, and I'd have booted him off the train if that was an option (very surprised it wasn't).

  • The supply theif (Ben) did act out of protection, which was quite obvious as soon as you listened to what the bandits had to say. Which further makes Lillys paranoia and shot just 10x more unforgivable.

    But Ben approached it the wrong way and with extremely stupid reasons. If Lee chooses to ask why, Ben mentions that the bandits told him a story that they had his friend hostage. 99% likely a lie to lure the shy, gullible kid in.

    I can not think of a single reason why he didn't tell the group that he was cutting a deal which would cause the bandits to hold off. He wouldn't have even needed to mention the part about his supposed friend.

    Thinking outside the box, he had plenty of time to tell it before the episode and prevent everything. Instead he let Lillys paranoia flare up. And god knows how he didn't intervene when Lee was investigating the missing supplies. Lee would've asked him about all the evidence as he moved around. Lee found the chalk. He even made all the ruckus of opening the gate and then walking back in with the brown back clutched in his hand.

    Ben was sitting centered, elevated, on watch duty while this was happening. By taking the bag, Lee set the trouble in motion, and Ben was either too dim to notice or he decided that he would rather deal with a bandit attack then come clean.

    Heck, as watchman, everyone was relying on him to not let bandits round up the group effortlessly. And we know how well that went.

    The boy is as clever as a bag of hammers. And we have plenty of adult hands to do the heavy lifting already. Even if it wasn't for her size, which alone has saved the whole group on at least two occasions, Clem still seems vastly more capable and brave than him. Maybe smarter and less gullible too.

    The fact Ben's still alive is a blatant slap in the face to anyone who believes in survival of the fittest. There is a lot of blood from the living on his hands.

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