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  • @Kiel555 said: Giving up? Lilly and Lee were actively working on achieving the best possible outcome, however remote, that Larry would survive and we would all escape from the cannibals. Thats' not giving up.
    Kenny was not a team player and folded under the pressure. He made the short term situation and long term survival more dangerous because the group actions became individual actions. Lilly was in shock, Lee was pissed and Kenny could not count on Lee. So who had to take on Danny solo? Lee.

    On the other hand, Larry could have survived. Or the group could have dispatched walker Larry (I would have like to have done that by the way...epic fight:D) and then the group would have found a way out of the meat locker and attacked Danny as a group.

    There is also the long term effect. What if we actually survived the meat locker and made it out. Kenny's way - group destroyed. Lee's way - group intact.

    Kenny is horrible mainly due to his follow on actions, post meat locker, that you may not see in your game but I do in my game. I have not taken my decision to expel both Kenny and Ben as group members lightly (I've done this as best the game will allow. I've not spoken to Ben since he admitted to being the traitor and only interact with Kenny if required by the game to move the story along). They have simply demonstrated that they are not suited for the complex nature of group dynamics. Maybe they will do better as lone surviviors. I do believe we are stonger as a group than as individuals. But as I'm sure Kenny would agree, sometimes the risk outweighs the benefit.:)

    Trying to save Larry because cannibals are outside and about to kill us anyway and we may as well go down as heroes sounds like giving up to me. And you say things like he made "long term survival more dangerous" We have to live in the here and now and face current threats. Such as the guy who if he turns into a walker, everyone is screwed.

    You could hardly argue "NO KENNY DONT DO THAT! If you kill that guy who might become a walker and kill us right now and so screw the other members of our group, then weeks from now, Lilly might go phyco and kill someone!" You make short term survival sound like he started eating all the rations at once or something, not like he dealt with a immediate threat to the entire group.

    Kenny's way= Pisses off Lilly but doesnt risk entire group
    Lee's way=Pisses off Kenny, risks entire group for one guy.

    You talk about complex nature of group dynamics, but at the end of the day, he is the guy who dealt with the threat to the entire group and you are the one who couldnt. Besides, i suspect defeating zombie Larry in a meatlocker with no weapons and Lilly in shock would just be retarded and TT knew that.

    Ben= Poor stupid kid, scared for his friend, intimidated by the bandits into helping them. No reason to kick him out of group or not to talk to him.
    Kenny=Removed the threat to himself and his family getting eaten alive by cannibals.

    Not talking to them over those things just seems really really petty, and saying that they "dont understand the complex nature of group dynamics" seems really really pretentious.

  • @Kelium said: This thread sure did go all out since I last checked it out!

    I doubt you missed much. It's best just to back away slowly.

  • @Wrighty said: Trying to save Larry because cannibals are outside and about to kill us anyway and we may as well go down as heroes sounds like giving up to me. And you say things like he made "long term survival more dangerous" We have to live in the here and now and face current threats. Such as the guy who if he turns into a walker, everyone is screwed.

    You could hardly argue "NO KENNY DONT DO THAT! If you kill that guy who might become a walker and kill us right now and so screw the other members of our group, then weeks from now, Lilly might go phyco and kill someone!" You make short term survival sound like he started eating all the rations at once or something, not like he dealt with a immediate threat to the entire group.

    Kenny's way= Pisses off Lilly but doesnt risk entire group
    Lee's way=Pisses off Kenny, risks entire group for one guy.

    You talk about complex nature of group dynamics, but at the end of the day, he is the guy who dealt with the threat to the entire group and you are the one who couldnt. Besides, i suspect defeating zombie Larry in a meatlocker with no weapons and Lilly in shock would just be retarded and TT knew that.

    Ben= Poor stupid kid, scared for his friend, intimidated by the bandits into helping them. No reason to kick him out of group or not to talk to him.
    Kenny=Removed the threat to himself and his family getting eaten alive by cannibals.

    Not talking to them over those things just seems really really petty, and saying that they "dont understand the complex nature of group dynamics" seems really really pretentious.

    When the ends justify the means that's when a person can be killed, who may be alive, might recover like last time, may not reanimate for say the time it takes to drop a salt lick after he is confirmed dead. Lots of unknowns but more than sufficient to make an irreversable decision based on what could happen and carry it out immediately.

    Again, that's fine if you're on your own. But may not sit well in a group setting. In my game, what Kenny did was unpopular. His own wife took the news badly. I suppose in your game he received a hero's welcome and even Doug patted him on the back for Kenny's heroic deed.

    Not talking to Kenny and Ben is the best the game will allow at this time. I had hoped Lee was going to throw Ben off the train but he let me down. We'll see if there is a better way to distance the group from Ben and Kenny in the next episode.

  • Wrighty, you somehow tried to avoid/escape/ignore my argument that Duck could've bitten somebody in that RV. You say that Ben would've passed the gun to Lee. Well, Lee was asleep and probably so was Ben especially if you left Lilly out. Why would he be awake if he doesn't know about Duck. Had Duck turned, Katjaa was 100% dead, he would bite her before she even opened her mouth. Even if they did manage to really fast, Duck was still in her arms so no way to quickly dispatch of him. Katjaa was one of potential victims. There could've easily been more.
    So be honest, did you try to make Kenny stop the RV? For like a week or more you've been trying to convince us of your super survival pragmatic way of making decisions. So did you tell Kenny to stop the RV or not?

    Once again you tell me I shouldn't blame for Kenny for leaving me for dead in Macon. After I saved his kid twice, fed him twice and saved his wife once. That means nothing to him and the only decision that I made to try and help SOMEBODY else for a change, makes me unforgivable in his eyes? Yeah, I can start a new save and treat him like the asshole he is from the very beginning. At least then I will know why he leaves me to die in Macon.

    You've already been over why Kenny isn't an asshole. Well some of us have been over why he is for like 51 pages now.

    I don't think that there is any point continuing this argument with you. I can already predict what you're gonna write before you actually write it. I do understand your position but I do not accept it as true and I doubt this is gonna change, unless somebody else joins the discussion.

  • @Kiel555 said: When the ends justify the means that's when a person can be killed, who may be alive, might recover like last time, may not reanimate for say the time it takes to drop a salt lick after he is confirmed dead. Lots of unknowns but more than sufficient to make an irreversable decision based on what could happen and carry it out immediately.

    Again, that's fine if you're on your own. But may not sit well in a group setting. In my game, what Kenny did was unpopular. His own wife took the news badly. I suppose in your game he received a hero's welcome and even Doug patted him on the back for Kenny's heroic deed.

    Not talking to Kenny and Ben is the best the game will allow at this time. I had hoped Lee was going to throw Ben off the train but he let me down. We'll see if there is a better way to distance the group from Ben and Kenny in the next episode.

    Whats you're point in the first paragraph? Sure there are lots of unknowns but the one thing we know is that if he reaminates, we are screwed. And that they reaminate fast so we could have been seconds away from Larry coming back. And Lilly already said he had no pulse and was not breathing. She was trying to resusitate him and that takes time. Its not like Lee could just lean down, take his pulse, say he's dead and then Kenny kills him. I dont think thats how resucitation works.

    In my game, only one person outside the locker knows about what happened and that was Katjaa. And its hardly like she immediatlely left or shouted at him for what he did. From what i saw, her reaction was "Oh god, what has this world come to" not "Oh God, i hate Kenny now". And its hardly like she knew the finer details of what happened, like how enclosed the space was and how there was nothing in the locker to fight with. Katjaa was sad and shocked at what this new world forces people to do, for the survival and safety of others.


    And you would kill Ben just because he was intimidated by the bandits and was told his friend was in danger? Ben was stupid but i have no respect for anyone who kills a person for making a mistake. Tells me what kind of person you're Lee really is :P

  • Yeah you have respect for guys who immediately kill or abandon the ones who need help. After you destroy people's lives you hate them for not being able to take the pressure you continue to give them and leave them for dead after they kill somebody by mistake.

  • @YamiRaziel said: Wrighty, you somehow tried to avoid/escape/ignore my argument that Duck could've bitten somebody in that RV. You say that Ben would've passed the gun to Lee. Well, Lee was asleep and probably so was Ben especially if you left Lilly out. Why would he be awake if he doesn't know about Duck. Had Duck turned, Katjaa was 100% dead, he would bite her before she even opened her mouth. Even if they did manage to really fast, Duck was still in her arms so no way to quickly dispatch of him. Katjaa was one of potential victims. There could've easily been more.
    So be honest, did you try to make Kenny stop the RV? For like a week or more you've been trying to convince us of your super survival pragmatic way of making decisions. So did you tell Kenny to stop the RV or not?

    Once again you tell me I shouldn't blame for Kenny for leaving me for dead in Macon. After I saved his kid twice, fed him twice and saved his wife once. That means nothing to him and the only decision that I made to try and help SOMEBODY else for a change, makes me unforgivable in his eyes? Yeah, I can start a new save and treat him like the asshole he is from the very beginning. At least then I will know why he leaves me to die in Macon.

    You've already been over why Kenny isn't an asshole. Well some of us have been over why he is for like 51 pages now.

    I don't think that there is any point continuing this argument with you. I can already predict what you're gonna write before you actually write it. I do understand your position but I do not accept it as true and I doubt this is gonna change, unless somebody else joins the discussion.

    WHAT?! Im telling you right now. Duck bites Katjaa, Katjaa screams, Lee and Ben hear it. Ben runs over and passes gun to Lee and Lee shoots him or Ben shoots him himself. Duck would have been concerned with finishing off and then eating Katjaa to notice the gun pointed directly on his forehead. At the end, Katjaa dies and she was obviously willing to risk getting eaten by Duck. And i cant believe you still cant accept the fact that Duck was a smaller threat than Larry in the meatlocker.

    I didnt tell him to stop the RV because I trusted Katjaa to shout out when he either took a turn for the worst, died, or when he reaminated and bit her. She is the one taking all the risk here. She didnt let me down, showing that i made the right decision about her judgement.

    Okay, do you know what? I have posted how YOU'RE LEE risked his wife and son to a slow horrible painful drawn out death that makes Larry's look merciful and Kenny's own life for some old bastard who tried to kill Lee after he got his heart medicine. And each and every time you have simply ignored it and posted the same thing about how "Duck was just a large a threat as Larry on the RV" or "He left me to die twice so screw him". I give answers to both of them and you dont respond to my argument. You also fail to respond to the whole Lilly screws you and steals the RV.

    It truly is obvious why Kenny does what he does to you're Lee and but you simply refuse to see the logic behind the decisions. This has led me to believe you're either ridiculously obtuse or simply realise that i have argued you into a corner and have to hide behind "I already know what you're going to post, so i wont bother"

  • I'm obtuse? Really? A person who does not clearly make the difference between "you're" and "your" is telling me that I'm dumb just because I do not agree with his opinion? I didn't really expect that from you.

    This is my last post to you.

    So you're willing to risk the life of the people in the RV, even admit that Katjaa is probably going to die if Duck turns which is 100% inevitable, unlike Larry who at least has some chance of making it, but somehow in the meat locker is different. So Katjaa can risk her life and potentially risk other lives too but that somehow doesn't apply to Lilly and Lee?

    You made the right call? Just because Lee doesn't rush and blow Duck's head off right on the spot doesn't mean the situation is different. If you cannot see that this is Telltale's way of testing you whether you are consistent or just biased then you're the one who's "ridiculously obtuse".

    I've posted my list of decisions so you can see the logic behind my decisions and that I'm not a 100% pro Lilly even though I understand her character. There is some logic I base my decisions on and for the most part that is compassion and willingness to help others regardless whether they are Lilly, Kenny, Larry, Duck or somebody else. Apparently you didn't even try to find it.

    I've already explained like 10 times why I think Lilly left me and stole the RV and the fact that I didn't respond you this time was just my attempt to not derail the thread to another Lilly thread. Here it is:

    Quote by Dead_Man_Walking
    [quote]When they found the bag of medication, and Ben confessed, in a sense, lily was right. The only problem was, she didn't see the big picture. I think that's all she's guilty of. Oh, and for those that got ditched, yeah, I was mad, too. However, maybe that was her way of saying she screwed up, and the group would be better off without her. It was a messed up plan of action, but lots of things are messed up in the spur of the moment. When you (Lee) went for the pencil, she could have easily snuck up on you and broke your neck. :/[/quote]

    And another one by Kiel555
    [quote]he only thing I would add is that when Lilly ditched us (Lee and Clem) I was not upset. She had saved Lee's life back when Andy was about to put Lee's face in the electric fence (and with Danny as well). It was as if we both said "we're even" as she paused and then drove away.[/quote]

  • @YamiRaziel said: I'm obtuse? Really? A person who does not clearly make the difference between "you're" and "your" is telling me that I'm dumb just because I do not agree with his opinion? I didn't really expect that from you.

    This is my last post to you.

    So you're willing to risk the life of the people in the RV, even admit that Katjaa is probably going to die if Duck turns which is 100% inevitable, unlike Larry who at least has some chance of making it, but somehow in the meat locker is different. So Katjaa can risk her life and potentially risk other lives too but that somehow doesn't apply to Lilly and Lee?

    You made the right call? Just because Lee doesn't rush and blow Duck's head off right on the spot doesn't mean the situation is different. If you cannot see that this is Telltale's way of testing you whether you are consistent or just biased then you're the one who's "ridiculously obtuse".

    I've posted my list of decisions so you can see the logic behind my decisions and that I'm not a 100% pro Lilly even though I understand her character. There is some logic I base my decisions on and for the most part that is compassion and willingness to help others regardless whether they are Lilly, Kenny, Larry, Duck or somebody else. Apparently you didn't even try to find it.

    I've already explained like 10 times why I think Lilly left me and stole the RV and the fact that I didn't respond you this time was just my attempt to not derail the thread to another Lilly thread. Here it is:

    Quote by Dead_Man_Walking


    And another one by Kiel555

    Resorting to calling out my grammar mistakes just makes you seem petty and struggling to find decent arguments. Just saying :P

    Secondly, i wouldnt really be risking the lives of the people in the RV for the reasons i have spelled out for you again and again. Katjaa knows the risks of her son being infected and takes them as does Kenny. Those two are in danger of getting bitten, but we have a gun so we can kill Duck while he eats his parents. The potential risk is much smaller because of the setting, the fact they had no weapons in the meatlocker, Duck himself and others. Not to mention the worst the RV people can get is bitten. The worst Duck/Kat/Carley/Ben gets is eaten alive by cannibals. What im trying to make you see is that the two situations are very different and acting differently for both doesnt make you a hypocrite or biased. Both situations were unique in setting, zombie size and the fact that the RV people had at least one weapon and anyone who says different is being obtuse or just dumb :P

    Sure i appreciate you sometimes hate Kenny and you're not completely biased against Kenny. But that one decision in the meatlocker is everything and you made the wrong choice, which led to both led to Kenny hating you and you risking everything for a old bastard to tried to kill Lee after he got him heart medicine.

    For the first quote, Lilly obviously wasnt right. Well done Lilly, Ben was one of the group of your two suspects. But in the end you shot Carely. Not to mention you shouldnt just go executing people for making mistakes and not getting their side of the story. If she truly believed the group would be better of without her and she cared about the group, she wouldnt have stolen the RV and would have made her way on foot or killed herself. Why should the group lose the RV for a mistake Lilly made? A mistake which could cost their lives if any walkers approach.

    For the second quote, if Lilly truly was a good or fair person, she would never have risked the lives of Kat, Ken, Lee and Clem to get away. Stealing the RV screws all of us. Hard. Whatever supplies we had in there was lost, as well as any means of escape if walkers arrive. Its not so much "We're even" as "Screw you all!" Saving Lee's life does not equal risking everyone elses to save you're own skin. Except it wasnt even saving her own skin, she just didnt want to be in the group anymore and decided to go away and leave us to die. I mean what kind of person, see's what the group is going through, losing Carely and then seeing Duck bitten, is still heartless enough to then, when you think things arent going any worse for the group, steals their RV and drives off into the sunset.

    And im talking about Lilly in a fuck Kenny thread simply because some of Kenny's most diehard haters are diehard Lilly fans, and im simply retaliating. Im not cruel enough to go on the Lilly appreciation thread and bash her there but i will bash her here while defending Kenny.

  • I'm always saying that this is my last post to some people and yet your arguments are so poor that I cannot restrain myself.

    [quote]The worst Duck/Kat/Carley/Ben gets is eaten alive by cannibals.[/quote]

    Carley and Ben are not there so, no, they were not in immediate danger. Plus, Carley has a gun. That leaves us with Duck and Kat who are Kenny's family of course. He's doing the smart thing for his family, not for the group. Duck and Kat could've already been killed you can't know for sure. Larry needed help, I helped him. There are not bad decisions in this game, and this is definitely not a wrong decision. If you think you're doing the only correct decisions I pity you...

    You know, I can already see the resemblance between you and Kenny. You both believe that your point is the only correct one and you do not even respect other people's opinions. There is no point in trying to make Kenny understand and respect other people's opinions just as there is no point in discussing these matter any further with you.

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