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Crawford Vs Ben (or Survival Vs Humanity)

posted by Ninnuendo on - last edited - Viewed by 624 users

I don't want to write too much in this topic for fear of influencing the poll but I'm interested looking at the Ben question through the prism of Crawford Survivalist Philosophy.

Ben
He's a young kid, he's an idiot, he's put you in danger multiple times but he's not bad, he's well meaning, he has the potential to be useful and will keep trying to be.
Now Ben has split this forum into 2 camps.

Those who would drop him because he's a threat or because he already screwed up & those who would save him out of compassion or his potential use. This particular issue is very relevant to the supporters and opponents of the way Crawford is run.

What I want to know is this

Did you support or agree with Crawfords policy of removing potential threats?
&
Did you drop Ben?

I'd really like forum answers to this and explanations, don't just vote and leave.

Poll is coming in a moment

67 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • duck is dead because of bandits/zombies, katjaa killed herself, Carley/Doug are dead because of Lilly, Chuck/bree are dead because of zombies, mark is dead because of bandits/St johns and Larry is dead because of a heart condition.

    ben didn't kill anyone

  • @Ninnuendo said: Vernon says they're sick and they obviously wouldn't have had a significant checkup in some time.

    True, but I don't see why they wouldn't have been as fine as Vernon and Brie if Crawford took care of them instead of kicking them out. @Ninnuendo said: Ben actually succeeds in protecting the group. He supplies the bandits and they stay away. Duck and Katjaa aren't his fault, they're Lillys (and by extension, Kennys).No, Ben bought a temporary unstable peace but because he kept the deal a secret the bandits attacked as soon as the stolen supplies were found. Further, the bandits did attack before and were repelled due to the wall so thanks to the secret deal the group was lulled into a false sense of security. If they knew that the bandits were still an issue then the group could've planned to either stay and further strengthen the defenses or keep the deal going and get out ASAP. Either way, a major issue like the bandits require the entire group to be on the same page, that Ben thought he could handle it alone shows incredible arrogance and ignorance...a very dangerous combination. And blaming Kenny is silly, he wanted to leave at the soonest possible moment and if the group knew that the bandits were still an issue then I suspect that the rest of the group would either talk some sense into Lilly or leave her there and go with Kenny. @Ninnuendo said: You also can't really blame him for Carley or Doug, he tries in every way to get out of that situation without getting killed. Once again the blame lays with Lilly (and by extension, Kenny)While Lilly was less stable after the death of Larry it's the discovery that someone is stealing medicine and supplies that send her off the deep end. This can be seen in the first conversation you and Kenny have with Lilly in Ep. 3, you actually have as close to a civil conversation with her as can be expected until she mentions that someone in the group is stealing from the group at which point she becomes extremely irritated, talks about how the number of people in the group that she can trust gets smaller by the day, and ends the conversation. Ben's secret deal is the root cause of Lilly losing it to extent that she kills Carley/Doug which makes Ben and Lilly equally responsible for their deaths, IMO. @Ninnuendo said:
    He's somewhat responsible for Chuck, but Chuck made that choice.A choice that would've been completely unneeded had Ben just grabbed Clem's hand before running. @Ninnuendo said: As for Bree, yeah he's at fault but once again he's just doing what he's told. I blame Gary Whitta for that one.C'mon, if you know Ben's so stupid that Kenny should've said, "Btw, don't take the hatchet that's barring the main door which is the only thing keeping the zombies around Crawford from storming in to kill us all", then can't you see why some people are too afraid of Ben's utter lack of common sense to have him around?

  • @thestalkinghead said: duck is dead because of bandits/zombies, katjaa killed herself, Carley/Doug are dead because of Lilly, Chuck/bree are dead because of zombies, mark is dead because of bandits/St johns and Larry is dead because of a heart condition.

    ben didn't kill anyone

    Directly, no but indirectly, yes.

  • @Phoenix VII said: Directly, no but indirectly, yes.

    then we should blame Danny because he indirectly caused all of the interaction between ben and our group, if he didn't set the trap that got David we would either have never meet Ben, or he would have his teacher and his friend to keep him out of trouble

  • @thestalkinghead said: then we should blame Danny because he indirectly caused all of the interaction between ben and our group, if he didn't set the trap that got David we would either have never meet Ben, or he would have his teacher and his friend to keep him out of trouble

    I think that's reaching a bit too far...sure, it's because of Danny that we were stuck with the greatest disaster magnet in the TWD universe for at least 2 episodes, but Ben isn't an inanimate object. If Ben made better choices at the motel, Savannah, and the Crawford raid, or simply sat in the corner staring at a wall then a whole lot of grief could've been averted. At most, both Danny and Ben gets the blame, but Danny is supposed to be a d-bag while Ben, for the most part is a good kid that wants to help but is so stupid and lacking in common sense that he can't do anything without causing a catastrophe.

  • @Phoenix VII said: Directly, no but indirectly, yes.

    Might aswell blame the cop for crashing into the first zombie we saw then, had that not happened Lee might have ended up in completely different predicaments.

    Indirect blame is pure bullshit. It's just an excuse for those too cowardly to blame those actually responsible even if they can't get justice from them.

  • @cormoran said: Indirect blame is pure bullshit. It's just an excuse for those too cowardly to blame those actually responsible even if they can't get justice from them.

    Sometimes that's true, and sometimes, like here, that's nonsense...take Crawford for example. Brie would still be alive if Ben didn't take the hatchet from the door. Instead, he took the hatchet, which leads to Brie's death and could very well have led to the deaths of everyone else, there's no way he can't be held responsible for that, IMO.

  • @Phoenix VII said: Sometimes that's true, and sometimes, like here, that's nonsense...take Crawford for example. Brie would still be alive if Ben didn't take the hatchet from the door. Instead, he took the hatchet, which leads to Brie's death and could very well have led to the deaths of everyone else, there's no way he can't be held responsible for that, IMO.

    bree would still be alive if she had been paying attention and not wanted a vote on something that i felt she had no place being involved in voting on, why not blame the guy that died and became a zombie if he had not been an idiot and died he wouldn't have eaten bree, or we should blame lee for not telling everybody that the zombies want to come in the door and even if they go don't take the hatchet because it is there for a reason and they may come back

  • To be honest you gota give it to ben... After all the moment he joined the group lilly and everyone gave him shit, he lost a teacher/friend already. A lot of people was against him because he was young and useless. He got crap from the bandits causing that deal and fight at the motor inn. Lilly killing doug/carley was his fault but wasnt intentional, still putting a lot of pressure on him futher on in the game. Poor kid...

  • I saved Ben. You don't kill a person over mistakes. Mistakes can't be helped, it happens to all of us. To blame him for his dumbness (He's young and inexperienced) let alone kill him over it is inhuman. He thought the bandits had his friend and he wanted to save him, I don't blame him. The blood on the door was so think you couldn't see the zombies (And not hear them?) so Ben thought the axe was a good choice. Crawford. The barrier was a great idea IMO, but the eliminating the weak is a bit excessive. I won't blame them if they exile mentally ill or retarded people, but kids?! Elderly!? Pregnant woman who don't want a abortion!? That's just wrong. "If we lose our humanity duo to survival, are we not the same as those beasts?" -unknown (I forgot who said it)

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