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  • Anyone ever saw that similar poll on the TWD wikia home page a while ago? Carley got like 62% of the votes out of the 13000+ people who voted :D

  • @montesinos7 said: Why would any one choose Ben.

    Killed:
    Carley/Doug (Indirectly Caused)
    Duck (Indirectly Caused)
    Katjaa (Indirectly Caused)
    Brie (Indirectly Caused)
    Tess (Indirectly Caused)

    Carley/Doug were murdered by Lilly being a basket case. Yes, Ben was responsible for the situation that caused them to leave the motel, but he is not responsible for the actions of other people.

    Duck, yes, you could say he had a hand, but again, he is not to blame for the bandits attacking. That was their choice. They fired the guns. They attracted the walkers.

    Katjaa made her own choice to kill herself. That was not Ben's fault. Kenny found a way to deal with Duck's death without shooting himself, so why couldn't Katjaa?

    Brie... Yes. Ben caused that one directly. Walkers make no choices, so they can't really be blamed for what they did. If Ben had recognized the hatchet as the same one he handed to Lee before the excursion, he would have no choice but to realize that someone from his own group had placed it there. Knowing that he screws stuff up, he should have not tinkered with it.

    I'm surprised you didn't mention Chuck. Sadly, I have to defend Ben from the accusations here as well. Ben left Clementine in danger, and I'm as angry as the next guy over it. However, once again, Chuck made his own choice to save Clem, which ended up getting him killed, not Ben. Chuck would be alive if he didn't help her, and Ben didn't force him to go back.

    Tess? Really? We're going to add that to the list now? She died because she was ill-prepared to survive in a zombie apocalypse. She couldn't handle losing her son and was unable to find more supplies once the group stole them. That's not on Ben. Our group managed to keep more people alive even when supplies were scarce. Stealing their supplies isn't what killed the stranger's wife and daughter.

    I don't mean this as an attack on your views, but it was just a convenient post for me to address with my own. I can understand why people hate Ben. I'm pissed at him half the time too, but I don't blame him.

  • @BlackBoxx said: Carley/Doug were murdered by Lilly being a basket case. Yes, Ben was responsible for the situation that caused them to leave the motel, but he is not responsible for the actions of other people.

    Duck, yes, you could say he had a hand, but again, he is not to blame for the bandits attacking. That was their choice. They fired the guns. They attracted the walkers.

    Katjaa made her own choice to kill herself. That was not Ben's fault. Kenny found a way to deal with Duck's death without shooting himself, so why couldn't Katjaa?

    Brie... Yes. Ben caused that one directly. Walkers make no choices, so they can't really be blamed for what they did. If Ben had recognized the hatchet as the same one he handed to Lee before the excursion, he would have no choice but to realize that someone from his own group had placed it there. Knowing that he screws stuff up, he should have not tinkered with it.

    I'm surprised you didn't mention Chuck. Sadly, I have to defend Ben from the accusations here as well. Ben left Clementine in danger, and I'm as angry as the next guy over it. However, once again, Chuck made his own choice to save Clem, which ended up getting him killed, not Ben. Chuck would be alive if he didn't help her, and Ben didn't force him to go back.

    Tess? Really? We're going to add that to the list now? She died because she was ill-prepared to survive in a zombie apocalypse. She couldn't handle losing her son and was unable to find more supplies once the group stole them. That's not on Ben. Our group managed to keep more people alive even when supplies were scarce. Stealing their supplies isn't what killed the stranger's wife and daughter.

    I don't mean this as an attack on your views, but it was just a convenient post for me to address with my own. I can understand why people hate Ben. I'm pissed at him half the time too, but I don't blame him.

    Well how do you define blame? No he is not solely responsible for any of them, but he at very least facilitates them.

    While he never pulls the trigger himself his role in those deaths shouldn't be overlooked or ignored. He consistently causes dangerous situations. Without him i think only Tess's death would have happened anyway.

    You are being to keen to put it all down to one thing, Everything is a result of many things coming together tragically, if we look at who was involved in causing each of those deaths

    Carley: Lilly, Ben
    Duck: Ben,Bandits
    Katjaa: Ben, Bandits, Kenny, Herself
    Brie: Ben
    Chuck: Ben, Clem, Himself
    Tess: Campman, The whole group.

    Ben is the constant factor, You cant say he directly killed any of them (except maybe Brie), but he was a liability.

  • @double_u said: Anyone ever saw that similar poll on the TWD wikia home page a while ago? Carley got like 62% of the votes out of the 13000+ people who voted :D

    Especially remarkable given she died a long time ago now, compared to second place Kenny he was there till (nearly) the end. Evidently she made a lasting impact. Shame fan favorites don't mean a lot in this franchise.

    Maybe we all still secretly hope enough tearful voting will cause a retcon :p

  • @The Fallen said: Well how do you define blame? No he is not solely responsible for any of them, but he at very least facilitates them.

    While he never pulls the trigger himself his role in those deaths shouldn't be overlooked or ignored. He consistently causes dangerous situations. Without him i think only Tess's death would have happened anyway.

    You are being to keen to put it all down to one thing, Everything is a result of many things coming together tragically, if we look at who was involved in causing each of those deaths

    Carley: Lilly, Ben
    Duck: Ben,Bandits
    Katjaa: Ben, Bandits, Kenny, Herself
    Brie: Ben
    Chuck: Ben, Clem, Himself
    Tess: Campman, The whole group.

    Ben is the constant factor, You cant say he directly killed any of them (except maybe Brie), but he was a liability.

    Yes, he's a factor, but I would say he's not the defining one in any of them, except for Brie's death, and possibly Chuck's.

    I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility. In all of those situations (again, barring Brie's), bad things happen due to the aggression of others, not Ben. Was Lee not to blame for killing a senator when he wasn't feeling well? No. He killed the man. He was directly responsible. Ben is indirectly responsible for most of the things he's blamed.

    The bandits were not forced to raid the motel. They chose to do that. The raid drew walkers. A walker bit Duck. Ben knowing that they would respond with violence does not abdicate the bandits for using said violence. Besides, Ben didn't prevent them from getting the last delivery. The way he was doing things, the bandits wouldn't have attacked that day.

    Katjaa was not forced to kill herself with grief. She chose to pull the trigger on her own.

    Lilly was not forced to kill Carley/Doug. She chose to shoot.

    Chuck was not forced to rescue Clem. I'm glad he did, but he would have lived had he not chosen to save her.

    Brie didn't have any option in her death. It was her job to keep watch, and Ben let loose the walkers that got her while doing her job. That was Ben's fault.

    I'm not saying Ben was blameless in all of it. I'm saying he's a scapegoat getting more blame than he deserves.

  • @BlackBoxx said: Yes, he's a factor, but I would say he's not the defining one in any of them, except for Brie's death, and possibly Chuck's.

    I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility. In all of those situations (again, barring Brie's), bad things happen due to the aggression of others, not Ben. Was Lee not to blame for killing a senator when he wasn't feeling well? No. He killed the man. He was directly responsible. Ben is indirectly responsible for most of the things he's blamed.

    The bandits were not forced to raid the motel. They chose to do that. The raid drew walkers. A walker bit Duck. Ben knowing that they would respond with violence does not abdicate the bandits for using said violence. Besides, Ben didn't prevent them from getting the last delivery. The way he was doing things, the bandits wouldn't have attacked that day.

    Katjaa was not forced to kill herself with grief. She chose to pull the trigger on her own.

    Lilly was not forced to kill Carley/Doug. She chose to shoot.

    Chuck was not forced to rescue Clem. I'm glad he did, but he would have lived had he not chosen to save her.

    Brie didn't have any option in her death. It was her job to keep watch, and Ben let loose the walkers that got her while doing her job. That was Ben's fault.

    I'm not saying Ben was blameless in all of it. I'm saying he's a scapegoat getting more blame than he deserves.

    Does he get more blame than he deserves? probably, but the problem is a little bit of blame for this and an "indirectly caused" there begins to add up when people you care about are dying.

    As for your individual assessments i agree mostly except for Chuck, because if he had not done that Clem would have died, so while it is Chucks decision that it should be him it is Bens running that meant somebody had to die

    also the Bandits, since as you say Ben knew what kind of people they were, nobody's saying their not awful people, but he should have known better. If you invite a mass murderer into your home and he kills someone whose fault is it? Being able to anticipate others behavior is an important skill. He let people he knew were dangerous get their foot in the door.

  • @The Fallen said: Does he get more blame than he deserves? probably, but the problem is a little bit of blame for this and an "indirectly caused" there begins to add up when people you care about are dying.

    As for your individual assessments i agree mostly except for Chuck, because if he had not done that Clem would have died, so while it is Chucks decision that it should be him it is Bens running that meant somebody had to die

    also the Bandits, since as you say Ben knew what kind of people they were, nobody's saying their not awful people, but he should have known better. If you invite a mass murderer into your home and he kills someone whose fault is it? Being able to anticipate others behavior is an important skill. He let people he knew were dangerous get their foot in the door.

    I can't disagree with anything you just said. Ben definitely deserves some blame.

    He did cause the situation where Clem needed to be rescued, but so did she. If she had stuck by Lee like she was up until 30 seconds prior, there would be no need for anyone to try and save her. All Ben had to do was take her hand and run, so yes, I do blame him for not being willing/able to do that, even in the heat of the moment.

    But the motel raid, I will never blame on Ben. He was actively trying to prevent them from attacking, and succeeded. If he hadn't made the deal with them, who knows when they would have attacked? Who would have died then? It was an inevitable situation, so I can't blame Ben for it. The worst I can do is blame him for not telling the others what was going on. That wouldn't change the situation much though.

  • Mark. The way he died was just sick.

  • @The Fallen said: Especially remarkable given she died a long time ago now, compared to second place Kenny he was there till (nearly) the end. Evidently she made a lasting impact.

    Definitely. Carley's missing presence really shows in how Lee relates to the group. She was really the one character that Lee could always depend on and trust. After the RV, he just couldn't rely on others as much if at all. For example:

    [LIST]
    [*]Kenny is a mess after Duck's and Katjaa's deaths. Totally understandable, but it leads to Kenny not thinking straight.
    [*]If you didn't help Kenny at the meat locker and generally disagreed with him, he's even more of a headache and "hostile" after the RV.
    [*]Omid and Christa are essentially unknown new members. It wasn't until episode 5 I felt some rapport towards them.
    [*]Clem, as awesome as she is, is still just a kid who can't offer the same type of support like an adult. Plus, I definitely felt a very disappointing breach of trust when I found out about the walkie-talkie.
    [*]Molly was too mercenary and, again, was too new in the group to develop rapport.
    [*]Chuck seemed like a good guy, and I thought he would be the voice of reason and experience, but he didn't last long.
    [*]Ben is useless.
    [/LIST]

    I'm not saying I don't like the above characters (except Ben, I don't like him), but merely pointing out that group dynamics after the RV is a lot less trustful and a lot more stressful. By making Carley so dependable and a love interest and then taking her out the game, the writers really did a fine job in making the last two episodes so much more intense.

  • Duck, if Duck hadn't died Katjaa wouldn't have killed herself, and assuming they had made it to episode 5 Kenny wouldn't feel inclined to sacrifice himself and leave his family. So in saving Duck I would have saved three lives. Besides Iliked the kid.

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