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How about someone like Ben as a new Protagonist?

posted by Chanut_N on - last edited - Viewed by 744 users

Ben 2.00 as a new protagonist in Season 2.

The game will force you to decide between the most moronic solutions. Which stupid way would you choose? Something like that.

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  • @Milosuperspesh said: really comparing clem to ben ? seriously ?

    but clem had a radio, she wanted her parents to be ok she did NOT steal from the group...

    as you say clem shows more maturity then ben she shows some smarts ben only showed some smarts when he rages on kenny...

    a lie with minimal consquences is nothing compared to open betrayal and stealing meds..

    yes the group or who ever is on lee's side go after clem, but did she go willingly ? why was her cap left who's blood was on the ground.. why was the walker hidden ??

    "A lie with minimal consequences"? Have you seen the same episode 5? Because of her lie she "killed" about as many people as Ben. Also Ben betrayed the group? Really? He was trying to help the group by stealing the medical supplies. Yeah, he should have told the group, but he didn't. Clem lied to the entire group for months, because some man she'd never met before claimed he had her parents. Not very smart at all.

  • @anonymau5 said: "A lie with minimal consequences"? Have you seen the same episode 5? Because of her lie she "killed" about as many people as Ben. Also Ben betrayed the group? Really? He was trying to help the group by stealing the medical supplies. Yeah, he should have told the group, but he didn't. Clem lied to the entire group for months, because some man she'd never met before claimed he had her parents. Not very smart at all.

    Ben giving the supplies probably harmed the group more than helped(by lulling them into a false sense of security and vulnerability due to the halted attacks) and he didn't do it with the group's safety in mind to begin with. The only reason he gave the bandits supplies was because he believed they had his friend, and continued the deal out of fear.

    Clementine is far younger than Ben and mistakes are to be expected, but Ben should know better. His lie caused deaths more directly than anything Clem has ever done. It's no surprise that a young child can be easily manipulated by using her long-sought parents as bait.

    Ben on the other hand states that he is already an adult, and knew full well the type of people the bandits were, yet foolishly believed them anyway.

    Edit: Clem also never lied, she just thought the radio was broken when the batteries were dead.

  • @Mornai said: Ben giving the supplies probably harmed the group more than helped(by lulling them into a false sense of security and vulnerability due to the halted attacks) and he didn't do it with the group's safety in mind to begin with. The only reason he gave the bandits supplies was because he believed they had his friend, and continued the deal out of fear.

    Clementine is far younger than Ben and mistakes are to be expected, but Ben should know better. His lie caused deaths more directly than anything Clem has ever done. It's no surprise that a young child can be easily manipulated by using her long-sought parents as bait.

    Ben on the other hand states that he is already an adult, and knew full well the type of people the bandits were, yet foolishly believed them anyway.

    Edit: Clem also never lied, she just thought the radio was broken when the batteries were dead.

    1. If he hadn't given the bandits the supplies they would have attacked sooner.

    2. Clem lied, The Stranger said that he had been talking to her for a while, which is backed up by him knowing her birthday. She continually told the group that the Radio was broken when it wasn't and she was being lied to by The Stranger. Note that it's been said that she talked into it, which originally people thought was her way of coping with her parents but was probably The Stranger. And even if she didn't know that it wasn't broken and that the batteries were dead. Then she could have told the group about it multiple times. The Stranger knew her, he wasn't just using his radio on every station and talking to another person named Clementine.

  • @anonymau5 said: 1. If he hadn't given the bandits the supplies they would have attacked sooner.

    2. Clem lied, The Stranger said that he had been talking to her for a while, which is backed up by him knowing her birthday. She continually told the group that the Radio was broken when it wasn't and she was being lied to by The Stranger. Note that it's been said that she talked into it, which originally people thought was her way of coping with her parents but was probably The Stranger. And even if she didn't know that it wasn't broken and that the batteries were dead. Then she could have told the group about it multiple times. The Stranger knew her, he wasn't just using his radio on every station and talking to another person named Clementine.

    Both incidents get three people killed. (only two for Clem if you dropped Ben), both involve lying, fairly equal as a crime

    Yes the bandits could well have attacked sooner, but the group would have been better prepared (Ben is on watch, and probably lets them get close thinking its the supply pick up, probably a factor in Duck and Kat dying), You're right though that the deal itself wasn't the main thing he does wrong, that is to continually lie about it, especially with Lilly already so unstable, Getting Carley killed, and ending any chance Lilly could recover. There's no way in hell that can be considered a good thing for him to have done. As far as im concerned its an example of him just trying to save himself over everyone else.

    Worth noting in Clems defense that unlike Ben she does actually prove some use at other points, (Saving Lee from the stranger, also Molly in Crawford), Ben only ever fucks up, and given that she's half his age. You'd expect the 16/17 year old to be more useful or at least more aware than an 8/9 year old, not less.

  • @The Fallen said:
    Worth noting in Clems defense that unlike Ben she does actually prove some use at other points, (Saving Lee from the stranger, also Molly in Crawford), Ben only ever fucks up, and given that she's half his age. You'd expect the 16/17 year old to be more useful or at least more aware than an 8/9 year old, not less.

    It's scientifically proven that teenagers are less stable and emotionally in control than any other age group (Excluding toddlers and babies of course.) It's sciencey stuff about the body growing and producing hormones and such. I'm just saying.

  • No is all I have to say. I hate Ben! Nuff said!

  • @anonymau5 said: It's scientifically proven that teenagers are less stable and emotionally in control than any other age group (Excluding toddlers and babies of course.) It's sciencey stuff about the body growing and producing hormones and such. I'm just saying.

    I'm aware of that, but it can only excuse so much. I didn't expect perfection from him, but well... Ben evidently wasn't top of his class lets put it that way. The point that he should be expected to perform better than Clementine still stands. You cant really lump them into the same bracket as "kids" IMO, the level of development is very different and overall Ben should be more able.

  • @The Fallen said: I'm aware of that, but it can only excuse so much. I didn't expect perfection from him, but well... Ben evidently wasn't top of his class lets put it that way. The point that he should be expected to perform better than Clementine still stands. You cant really lump them into the same bracket as "kids" IMO, the level of development is very different and overall Ben should be more able.

    Clem had loving and caring parents, you don't know as much from Ben. Clem also had Lee as a father figure, someone who taught her to fight, to be brave, to stay strong, to survive. Who did Ben have? A prick of a friend(Travis) and a teacher who was teaching him it was better to run and flee than fight your way through problems. After joining the group, nobody looks after him. He's kind of on his own throughout the game. Nobody teaches him much. Clem becomes smarter, faster, greater under pressure, and a good shot because of Lee's teachings. She becomes a great survivor. Ben, on the other hand, is no different from ep 2 to ep 4-5. I don't really blame the kid, he had good intentions. I was pissed at first, but I realized just what he had gone through and that he wasn't taught any better.

    Not only that, but he isn't exactly 'warm welcomed' by the group. I'd say there are a handful of the group that even wanted him in the group/didn't want to leave him alone.

    I can't defend Ben, for he made some dumbass decisions. He wasn't bad though.

    I also can't deny Clem is a badass, in my opinion better than some of the adults in the game (Lilly, Katjaa, Larry)

  • @Jaded X Gamer said: You're the one who said the "jut a kid argument" didn't fly for Ben because he had already seen so much fucked up shit. But it flies for Clementine because she's younger, even though she's seen and understands pretty much all the same shit Ben has and demonstrates a level of mental maturity close to if not greater than Ben?

    Their "mentality" was the same. Someone clearly not trustworthy tells them they have their loved one and they did something really stupid because their desire to save the people they care most about overwrote their common sense (albeit in Ben's case he probably didn't have a lot of that to begin with). Clementine understood what she did was wrong afterwards. I know because when you get her back she says the exact same thing Ben said after the bandit raid.

    "I'm sorry."

    As far as I'm concerned, Ben and Clem were both kids who needed protecting and a good parental figure to guide them. The biggest difference was Clem had a good guardian with Lee, Ben was mostly on his own.

    The point I am trying to make in my previous two posts is the reason the "he's just a kid" argument doesn't work for Ben is he isn't a kid and he's seen a lot of shit in the world. Yet, that's the excuse people tend to give him for being a total mess up. Like I said "unlike Ben, Clem is actually a child." Ben is not a child and he's been exposed to enough that he needs to toughen up.

    And just because Clem does things that we as adults construe as mature doesn't mean she rationalizes things an older person would. Kids rationalize things their own way, hence the scientific profession of child psychology. So just because Clem and Ben did something similar to achieve a similar goal doesn't mean Clem's thought processes and understanding of consequences were at all similar. Their mental development is simply not at the same level. Their mentality is not the same.

    What happened to Clem happens to a lot of kids being targeted by online pedophiles who pretend they are nice people and whatnot because they know they can manipulate children. Ben, on the other hand, is collaborating with known murderers, rapists, and looters while not telling the group about his deal.

    I don't expect Ben to act like Lee or someone with a lot of life experience, but he frankly cannot hide behind his age for what he has done. And to compare his actions and thought processes to Clem's actions and thought processes is pushing it.

  • @double_u said: The point I am trying to make in my previous two posts is the reason the "he's just a kid" argument doesn't work for Ben is he isn't a kid and he's seen a lot of shit in the world. Yet, that's the excuse people tend to give him for being a total mess up. Like I said "unlike Ben, Clem is actually a child." Ben is not a child and he's been exposed to enough that he needs to toughen up.

    And just because Clem does things that we as adults construe as mature doesn't mean she rationalizes things an older person would. Kids rationalize things their own way, hence the scientific profession of child psychology. So just because Clem and Ben did something similar to achieve a similar goal doesn't mean Clem's thought processes and understanding of consequences were at all similar. Their mental development is simply not at the same level. Their mentality is not the same.

    What happened to Clem happens to a lot of kids being targeted by online pedophiles who pretend they are nice people and whatnot because they know they can manipulate children. Ben, on the other hand, is collaborating with known murderers, rapists, and looters while not telling the group about his deal.

    I don't expect Ben to act like Lee or someone with a lot of life experience, but he frankly cannot hide behind his age for what he has done. And to compare his actions and thought processes to Clem's actions and thought processes is pushing it.

    People calling Ben a kid actually extends to a lot of in-game characters as well. It really just seems like the best way to describe a teenage band geek who doesn't even look old enough to vote. He was in desperate need of guidance but was stuck with a bunch of people who couldn't care less about him.

    I can understand you disagree with that but I don't agree that being to exposed to "horrible shit" means he should automatically toughen up. In fact you see lots of people in the game who are just utterly ruined by the horrible things that happen to him. Just seeing terrible things isn't going to make him a better survivor, especially when no one is bothering to teach him anything.

    As for Clementine being more vulnerable to manipulation because of her age, I agree. Unlike Ben and the Bandits, Clementine thought the man on her radio was someone legitimately trying to help her. She's still at an age where it's difficult to understand certain aspects of human behavior. She's not stupid but she can still be pretty naive because of her age.

    But I still don't agree the difference in Ben's and Clem's thinking was massively different. In both cases it comes down to making a bad judgement call because they wanted to see their loved ones again. You can argue Ben's was worse or Clem's is easier to forgive, but I just don't see it as a world of difference. I think it comes down to you expecting Ben to be fully matured and level headed person because he's somewhat older and he's seen horrible shit (which, to me, would more likely screw someone up). A lot of the adults were cracking under the same circumstances.

    Hell, what little we know about Jolene suggests she dealt with the bandits to try and get her daughter back even though she knows she couldn't trust them. But she was desperate to get back her daughter and she didn't know what else to do. I really don't think you ever really outgrow being vulnerable to emotional manipulation, especially under such extreme circumstances. With the way Kenny was acting I wouldn't be surprised if he had done the same thing if the bandits took Duck away.

    You talk about child psychology, but adolescence tends to wreak havoc on people's psychology and there's entire books written on the subjects of understanding teenagers and the way they think. In some ways teenagers can act stupider than children because their old enough to assert themselves but still too young to have much valuable life experience. A lot of regular teenagers have trouble dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts without an apocalypse bearing down on them, so yeah, forgive me if I think Ben watching his whole class die didn't turn him into a well adjusted hardass.

    I'm not trying to make excuses for every stupid thing Ben did (that would take too long) or out to make Clementine look bad, but I do think there is a bit of a double standard here. Not just with people who play the game but people in the game too. This idea that your family is always more important than everyone else's was the root cause of most of the conflict in the group and constantly created problems.

    From Lilly and Larry's shit to Kenny's asshole tendencies to the Stranger's crazy bullshit. But it always led to the same place, "My family is what matters and the hell with anyone else!" And that kind of mentality usually just led to more suffering for everyone, so I always made it a point to help everyone I could and not just the people closest to me, including the teenage dipshit who was too afraid to tell anyone he was being strong armed by drugged up killers. :p

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