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Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

posted by YamiRaziel on - last edited - Viewed by 4.4K users

This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk

I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.


It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.

I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.

So, am I the only one? :D Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P

695 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • I loved Lilly. She was great, up until her dad was murdered, turned psychotic, and blew Carley's brains out.
    Had she not lost it, she'd probably be my favorite character (well, her and Carley both are as it is, but I would've liked her more- why Kenny, why?)

  • To YamiRaziel:

    I see my name mentioned quite often in your posts. I started reading but then I realized how you clearly have no idea how to argument yourself so I quit.
    I'm sorry but I definitely do not have time for lines like "After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terrible Leader. "

    What's wrong with that line?
    What is she doing when you meet her, nothing, she looks like she's losing it, struggled to control her dad and when her dad collapses, she runs to strangers for help and did nothing through the whole of Episode 1. Tell me where the great leader is in that?

    I don't see why she's a terrible leader, nor why it is clear.

    Maybe if you read further, you'll see why.

    Your posts are full of things you believe we should all finally understand but to tell you the truth, all you say has been discussed for so long that nobody is gonna take you seriously.
    Calling me or anybody else fanatic doesn't help either. It only shows how rude and narrow-minded you are.

    You're actually the third user to tell me about skipping pages. Kind of made me feel guilty for being lazy so I read all the pages. And you claim I'm repeating the same discussion? I don't think anyone brought up points that I brought up?
    Like others, I was responding to your thread.
    Nobody will take me seriously? dukeleto begs to differ.
    I apologize for that "Fanatic" remark, didn't mean to offend. BTW, you did make Lilly out to be what she was not as if you never played the game, and also, didn't you come across a little rude to thestalkinghead guy? Just saying, I’m not the only that was apparently "rude".

    There are a lot of people in this forum who do not share my appreciation for Lilly and whom I respect. You are not one of them.

    Fine by me. I don't care whether you respect me or not due to me disagreeing with your points. I'm not even looking for your respect because you come across as a fanatic.

    To Dukeleto:

    Hello Icerider-

    Ok it's clear for me now- why you support Kenny this much.
    Let me explain.

    You support him because he fits MUCH to your playthrouh and to your decisions.

    The thing here is, there are not only one Lilly or not only one Kenny in this game.
    The Kenny I met,
    is way tooooooo different than your Kenny (according to your choices)

    And the Lilly I met,
    is way tooooooo different than your Lilly. (according to your choices,again)

    It's not about the choices you make that affects the character to the person they become, it's about the action they take no matter what choices you make.

    I'm saying this, because you asked me where did I saw that "caring" Lilly.
    I strongly suggest you to go back and try to side with her while rationing, staying at the motel, and giving a bar of chocolate kinda things... Then maybe you can see another Lilly.


    As a matter fact, I already did a game play where I sided with her(though I did feel like shit siding with her, made me felt like an asshole and nothing positive came out of it), I did a lot of game plays with different choices, still have the same opinion, I see no changes when you side with her or when your neutral because in the end, it'll always come with the same outcomes. I met nice Kenny & douche bag Kenny but I’ve not met a nice Lilly.

    The thing I'm trying to say here is, your arguments are based on DEPENDEBLE facts( according to playthroughs), while mine were not based on people's choices.
    Because I'm not talking about Kenny whose actions are changeable according to player's choices. The examples I gave were for everyone who played this game.

    You think I’m siding with Kenny due to the choices I made that makes him likeable?
    Not even close, it's not based on people's choices.

    This is how it goes with the two:
    You be a dick to Kenny, he's a dick to you
    You be a nice to Kenny, he's a nice to you

    with Lilly:
    You be a dick to her, she's a selfish bitch to you
    You be a nice to her, she's still a selfish bitch to you

    Notice how she doesn't change. Kenny being a dick hardly causes problems for you but with Lilly, it does.

    For example you mentioned about Christa. Who saved her? I didn't see Kenny were doing it since I didn't drop Ben on that belltower. ( But even if I saw him doing that, I was still like F*** you Kenny, because it was already his fault that Christa fell down. )

    And about Ben, Kenny didn't sacrifice nothing; he only realised that he never treated reasonable to that teenager, and after his family is all gone, he realised he will not handle the idea of a painful death of this young man. Nothing more.

    Did he push Christa down? No, how is it his fault?, she chose to go down herself and he sacrificed his own life to save her yet you still condemn that action.

    And Ben, same thing, sacrificed his life in a brutal way so a teenager that got his family killed doesn't need to suffer a horrible death. He realized the way he treated him and showed remorse, has Lilly showed remorse for her actions? No, but you assumed she did and slate a character that does.

    I see my explanations are still not enough for you.

    Then I must repeat:
    -NO one but NO ONE has the right to act like an executioner when it comes to family issues. Kenny shouldn't KILL Larry, because simply he has NO right to do it. Simple. No .ucking right on someone else's life. -

    Of course, he can still act like an executioner to save his own life (or for his family), but as I said after doing it he must have taken the responsibility and he must have left. As Lilly did.

    That's still not enough. They were locked in a room, what you're asking is for them to do nothing when a guy can reanimate and kill you, your friend and a little girl in that room you're in?
    And why should Kenny leave? As far as he's concerned, he saved 3 peoples lives, Lilly on the other hand committed cold blooded murder.

    You said "And rules? What rules, there are no rules anymore. "
    Ok then, it is not a problem that Lilly killed Carley. No rules, no respect. Nothing.

    There are no rules but there are still Morals, the characters do still possess the knowledge of knowing what's right and what's wrong. Lilly didn't.

    Think about again, who is only one sided?

    I still insist, everything started by Kenny's arrogance with that salt lick. They were all doing well one way or another. But Kenny screwed at the first most deadly situation the group ever faced.

    You're still one sided and I'll give you a reason why, you fail to recognize Lilly's flaws, whereas I at least acknowledge that Kenny has flaws.

    Lilly was the one that screwed everything up by pushing the group to that cannibal farm. If she hadn't, the salt lick incident would never have occurred.

    Please try to discuss some manners by non-dependable arguments. As I carefully choose the examples which are not changeable for others' playthroughs. If you continue, I'm sorry I'll think that yours doesn't do it for me, too.

    OK, still not convinced that Lilly is not what she seems.

    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still offer you a ride
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save you in Ep 1
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save you by preventing Larry's reanimation
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still take you in the RV
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny is still willing to take you on the boat, bitten or not
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save Christa
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still put Ben out of his misery
    No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still stick with you till the end

    Now with Lilly:
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still whine at you
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still snap at you
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still be a hypocrite
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still push you to the farm
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still push you to start a witch hunt
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still kill Carley/Doug
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still sell you out on what you did before
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still stab you in the back
    No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still steal the RV

    There, at least when Kenny's a douche, you can still change it but with Lilly, you can't change nothing and you're left making excuses for her actions.

    And lastly;
    YES, the drinking issue is the most important thing to me. And disappearances of Clem on both situations looked a bit different to me.
    Because last time I checked, on Lee's situation LEEME was sleeping.

    The drinking issue?
    You say Lilly is a broken woman and she gets a free pass for killing Doug/Carley.
    But Kenny is a broken man but somehow, him drinking is much worse than murder?
    Whether Lee was sleeping or not, he was still in charge of Clementine, you might as well blame Ben, Christa and Omid for losing her as well.

    PS: Sorry for my late reply.

  • Blast from the past.....

    That reminds me, haven't seen Yami around here in ages....

  • Lily is rash and weak minded. She only cares for larry and herself. Why does anyone stick up for her? She gets mad when carly/glen saves a child in the streets. She flips out when someone is stealing even though she has been stealing for larry. She is so weak minded she cannot keep her shit together shoots doug/carly. Poor baby...you lost your daddy....cry me a river. Clem is 8 lost both parents and handles it better than lily. If you do not leave her she steals the RV. No reguard for the children she just left in the middle of nowhere. What if the train was busted then what? She would of basically killed everyone. I hope she dies a slow firery death.

  • @GREYxDUZxKRUSH said: Lily is rash and weak minded. She only cares for larry and herself. Why does anyone stick up for her? She gets mad when carly/glen saves a child in the streets. She flips out when someone is stealing even though she has been stealing for larry. She is so weak minded she cannot keep her shit together shoots doug/carly. Poor baby...you lost your daddy....cry me a river. Clem is 8 lost both parents and handles it better than lily. If you do not leave her she steals the RV. No reguard for the children she just left in the middle of nowhere. What if the train was busted then what? She would of basically killed everyone. I hope she dies a slow firery death.



    Someone who agrees with me, thank you!

  • @IceRyder said:
    This is how it goes with the two:
    You be a dick to Kenny, he's a dick to you
    You be a nice to Kenny, he's a nice to you


    I'm sorry for jumping in like this, but what? I'm sorry but not killing Larry, literally the only time I didn't side with Kenny (aside from leaving or shooting Beatrice, I chose the latter, similarily I did not drop Ben) doesn't really qualify me as being a dick.

    Kenny would literally leave me to die twice and then later leave Clementine, an nine year old girl who had nothing to do with it, just because I didn't help him kill people. Interestingly he always went on after the meat locker situation that I was never there for him, when Lee literally saved his family tons and tons of times. Even going so far as to put Duck out of his misery.

    At least Lilly, whom I'm not fond of (you can deduct the reasons why by looking at my avatar and sig), had a justified reason for hating you. Because, you know, you killed the last thing she had left in this world. Also even then she was more understanding than Kenny.

    "A part of me understands why you did it..."

    with Lilly:
    You be a dick to her, she's a selfish bitch to you
    You be a nice to her, she's still a selfish bitch to you
    You kidding me? Lilly was an awesome character if you attempted to save Larry, she had some great potential to be an amazing character. One of my favourite and, in my opinion, touching lines were given by her in episode three.

    "[Larry] treated you like shit, knew who you were and you still tried to save his life. The last thing you need to do is apologize.
    "Thank you."
    "So you killed a guy? I bet he was a dick."
    "Well, it did ruin my life."
    "Good thing everyone else's got destroyed shortly thereafter, huh? Misery loves company."

    Then there's that one quote Carley said.

    "You're pretty much the last thing she has left in the world."
    Notice how she doesn't change. Kenny being a dick hardly causes problems for you but with Lilly, it does.
    Are you kidding me? Like I said before, Kenny leaves you to die TWICE. Despite everything I've done for him and his family he'd leave you to die because you didn't help him kill Larry. That's awful! And this is probably the most evil statement given by a character in this game.

    "Lee, man... You know I care about Clementine, and I am Christian man. But if it were me, asking you for help... Would you be there for me? Because there's been plenty of times where you haven't been."

    He'd leave Clementine to die just because I didn't help him kill Larry and Ben / shot Beatrice. Literally the only times I didn't help him. That's just terrible, Clementine is a nine year old girl who needs help and he'd leave her because of a grudge with Lee?

    I believe this was intentional too. You play through episode one thinking Kenny is a nice guy and then in every subsequent episode you slowly start to realize that Kenny isn't as good as you may have first realized. It kind of works in reverse with Lilly, you start off hating Lilly and then you start to see a really nice soft side too her. And then she shoots Carley and then I begin to write her name in my Death Note.

    Now I'm not saying Lilly is amazing or that she's better than Kenny, but stop looking at this through tinted glasses. Kenny is far from a good person, same with Lilly. They're both assholes. Lilly has some qualities I like and Kenny has some qualities that I like.

  • @CarScar said: I believe this was intentional too. You play through episode one thinking Kenny is a nice guy and then in every subsequent episode you slowly start to realize that Kenny isn't as good as you may have first realized. It kind of works in reverse with Lilly, you start off hating Lilly and then you start to see a really nice soft side too her. And then she shoots Carley and then I begin to write her name in my Death Note.

    Now I'm not saying Lilly is amazing or that she's better than Kenny, but stop looking at this through tinted glasses. Kenny is far from a good person, same with Lilly. They're both assholes. Lilly has some qualities I like and Kenny has some qualities that I like.



    Lilly doesn't really change much at all. She's arrogant and stubborn when you first meet until the day you part. She complains about Lee's group joining, she complains about Mark joining, she complains about Ben joining. I understand that they're more mouths to feed, but she ignores that aspect as well. She knows there is no food left but refuses to leave. At first this was because they were near the pharmacy and could get medicine for Larry, but after his death she still stubbornly stays put even when she doesn't have a valid reason anymore.

    Kenny might change from good guy to bad guy or vice versa, but Lilly is sort of a tyrant from day one forever.

  • @CarScar said: He'd leave Clementine to die just because I didn't help him kill Larry and Ben / shot Beatrice. Literally the only times I didn't help him. That's just terrible, Clementine is a nine year old girl who needs help and he'd leave her because of a grudge with Lee?



    As opposed to Lilly, who would leave Clementine, a nine year old girl who needs help, EVEN IF YOU SUPPORTED HER 100%!

    Don't forget, she's the same woman who screamed at Carley for saving Clementine (and four others) back when all this started.

    Lilly never gave a shit about anyone but herself and her father. You say not killing Larry and Ben doesn't make you a dick to Kenny? I agree. But if you don't side with Lilly she does everything Kenny does and far worse. And even if you side with her on everything, she abandons you and Clementine, after lying about bringing you with her.

    You flip that around, and do every stupid thing Kenny wants you to do, he'll refuse to let you go alone, telling you that Lee and Clem are the only family he has left. And even if you didn't, you can guilt trip into coming anyways by playing the family card, and if you fail at that he says he'll still wait for you to get back and even take you back on the boat despite being bitten. Where as with Lilly, every combination always leads to her running off to save her own skin, possibly after admitting she planned on killing you when your back was turned.

    Kenny was a decent guy who turned into a selfish asshole as things got worse, but Lilly was a selfish asshole who turned into an amoral sociopath. It's most obvious in episode one. The second shit hits the fan Lilly's gone and her father only stays behind to murder Lee, where as Kenny saves you even if you've been an ass to him all episode. I'm not a big Kenny fan, but you're crazy to act like he was as bad as Lilly.

    You say Lilly is a great character, I agree, she's a great VILLAIN. And she's a great villain because she hides the fact she's a villain for so long. She's a manipulative shrew who used her bully of a father as leverage to crown herself leader so she can justify sitting somewhere safe while people like Kenny, Lee, Mark and the like take all the risks to get things like pills for Lilly's would be murderer father Larry. She lies about protecting everyone else while she sits safe and sound and dismisses anyone who questions her awful leadership. Once Larry's gone and she doesn't have him to make her look better by comparison her true nature comes out.

    Kenny can be a massive asshole, but he was never shy about doing what he thought needed to be done. Sometimes that caused him to do some supremely stupid shit, but it also meant he'd dive right into whatever dangerous situation he felt was in his interests. That's why no matter what, he's out hunting in episode two, he's heading back to the pharmacy in episode three, off to Crawford in four, and depending on how he feels about Lee, may even come with you after Clem.

    He didn't sit around on a lawn chair and expect other people to take care of him 24/7 like Lilly did. Lilly wanted to leave Lee and everyone to die outside of the pharmacy. Lilly does jack shit to defend the pharmacy during the attack. Lilly sits on watch while Kenny, Mark and Lee try to get supplies. Then, Lilly gives Ben watch and hides in her room when bandits pose a threat to whoever is on watch. And when bandits finally attack she sends Lee out as bait while she finds somewhere nice and far away to snipe them from. And all this happens even if you support her.

    The only remotely heroic thing she does is attack the St. Johns, only after Lee and Kenny go first, only if you side with her, and even then she hangs back in the safety of the barn with the only gun available. And that's the best case scenario. And even then she's acting out of revenge, not a sense of protecting anyone. It's pretty obvious when you don't side with her she just stands there while Andy tries to murder Lee, and Clem looks on in horror as she realizes what's happening. Lilly's thinking, this way two people who were responsible for my father's death will die. She was thinking she'd be killing two birds with one stone.


    c5e03e07-6168-432f-a8d9-7ac0e52dbaf7_zps


    Depending on how Kenny thinks you "slight" him, he can be a real piece of shit. Lilly however always ends up as a monster, no matter what you do for her, and will always end up shooting one of the most selfless people in your group. She'd probably fit right in once she got to Woodbury, all she might not have liked Crawford, they'd expect her to pull her own weight.

  • @Jaded X Gamer said:
    You say Lilly is a great character, I agree, she's a great VILLAIN.



    Great point as usual. I think Lilly is a well written character, just not a likable one for many. Heck, the fact many players dislike her is proof she's a great character because the writers did a good job of getting people riled up.

    Kinda reminds me of how satisfied I am watching this scene from Game of Thrones: :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA

    Martin is a good writer for making people hate a kid!

  • @Jaded X Gamer
    While I disagree with a lot of points you make concerning Lilly and Kenny I can understand them.The one I don't understand is the one concerning Lilly not helping a Lee who held her back while Kenny smashed her father's skull?!

    I find it hard to imagine that any more than a tiny minority would have actively help Lee in that situation(unless you really hated your Dad).Personally I would have found it hard not to give Lee a third eye,when Andy was trying to fry him,if he had done the same to my father.Someone I thought I could have saved,only ten minutes ago.

    Concerning Lilly staying back in the barn,If I remember correctly,doesnt she say "Go, I'll look after Clementine"(pro Lee) or Lee himself even tells her to stay and look after Clem(anti Lee).Should Lee have taken Clem with him to confront the St john's,left Clem on her own with Danny(dead or alive) and Larry's body or defenceless by taking the gun from Lilly?

    I also remember the fact that Kenny was sitting down and playing with a pipe while Larry and Mark worked on the defences and Lee struggled with a walker attacking Kenny's wife.I thought the reason that Lilly was sitting in her chair was because she was acting as a lookout for the group from her deckchair on top of the RV(one of the few members who had previous use with firearms).Kenny took a while to notice his wife was being attacked...

    While Lilly did eventually do a monstrous thing I think your hate,rage and hindsight is making you very selective in your points and the way you justify her previous actions ;)

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