User Avatar Image

Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

posted by YamiRaziel on - last edited - Viewed by 4.4K users

This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk

I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.


It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.

I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.

So, am I the only one? :D Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P

695 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • @CarScar said: Oh yes, by all means Kenny can go on and on about how he might have saved everyone by killing Larry. Meanwhile my Lee takes it a step further and literally saves everyone. There's no might about it. Lee helped save Duck with Kenny at Hershel's farm, Lee defended Duck at the motor inn, Lee saved Katjaa from Parker's reanimated corpse, Lee saved Katjaa from Brenda, Lee helped save Duck with Carley from Andy, Lee saved literally everyone (save Lilly) when the bandits attacked. Oh no, but Kenny doesn't realize that. He's the hero because he killed Larry and Lee's the idiotic villain who deserves to die along with his pseudo-daughter because he didn't help.

    Oh yes, totally justified.


    If looting an already scavenged store for an extra minute is worth letting a poor girl get eaten alive, then yeah. Sure. It's not like I got 18 / 20 food items regardless or anything because Lee's, ya know, not useless like Kenny. "But Lee! If you let that girl die we would have had two extra energy bars! How could you Lee! You are never there for my family!"


    He's an eighteen year old kid that was just trying to help. Does he expect me to dirty up my hands and get his revenge for him or something?

    Kenny only starts to realize how much of an extremely huge dick he was only in episode five. Which is what made him better than Lilly, for the most part. At least he was aware that he was an asshole in the end.



    Also, Kenny can save you in the store multiple times (he always does at least once), saves you from Larry leaving you, give you both a ride to Macon, saved EVERYONE with HIS RV, without which everyone would have eventually died b walkers or bandits. He saves everyone by helping start up the train, after LILLY left you all stranded. He saves EVERYONE by getting the armory door open, he tries to save EVERYONE by getting the boat working, he will help you by either helping you find Clem from the beginning or by by helping get the boat running, and once its gone will still go with you to find her. He tries to help multiple times by pulling you up away from harm, but unsuccessful to to his injuries. I can't always defend him, but he wasn't a bad guy. He had his quirks, his flaws, and his grudge issues, but he was still a good guy, where I see Lilly as an outright asshole. I really can't defend many of her actions. Not rightfully anyway.

  • @LokiHavok said: Yeah that's true. But that small sign of life only means that Lilly's CPR worked. Or that he was about to reanimate. We'll never know.

    Lilly's shooting of Carley was flat-out overt murder. Kenny's choice was circumstantial. He made the most logical choice imo. I sided with him because of that.

    But then again I've overtly murdered characters in this game as Lee. The SaveLots woman for example. The Brothers Johns. So who am I to judge lol.


    As messed up as what Lilly did to Carly was Kenny still trumps her earlier in that episode when he watches Lee struggling when he is being attacked by walkers in the drug store. He waited to see if Lee was going to die which was like when Shane left Otis in the tv show. Lilly was mentally unstable when she shot Carly, Kenny had no excuse. He even states latter in ep5 that he spent many nights hating Lee's guts.

  • @Rock114 said: You say that we can't knwo that Kenny saved us, and you're right. But at the same time, we don't know that Larry was alive. I was afraid he'd turn, so I helped Kenny. Do I feel bad? Yes, I do feel bad about Larry. That I helped when we didn't know if he was dead or not. Lilly still had no reason to shoot Carley, where Kenny may have had a reason to kill Larry.

    If we blame the bandit raid on anyone, it can't be Kenny. Probably Ben for going behind our backs and not telling us about the deal, but Kenny fixed up the RV which allowed the group to escape. If he hadn't it's likely that no one would have made it out of the motor inn alive. And Lilly's reasoning went only as far as Larry. It was really him in charge if you think about it, because she never went against him. If she stepped out of line once with him, she was always quick to retract it. Kenny's no saint, but neither is Lilly.

    And Carley/Doug's death is on Lilly, she pulled the trigger. No matter her mental state, she murdered them as much, if not more than Kenny murdered Larry. She's a danger to the group now. I personally would not let her back in, and I left her on that road without a second thought. She's no better than Kenny or Lee or anyone else. She even drives off with the RV and leaves you all stranded at the train if you take her with you after that. She straight up lies to you and says that she'll take you and Clem with her if you agree to leave in the RV, and then immediately drives away after you step out. Can't trust her any more than Kenny, or Ben, or Chuck, or anyone who isn't named Lee Everett.


    In then comics Rick didn't know if Maggie was still alive but that didn't stop him and Glenn from trying to save her. Like Larry she had stopped breathing. Like Kenny Abraham wanted to destroy her brain IN CASE she reanimated. Rick held him at gun point and wouldn't allow him to shoot her until it was confirmed that she couldn't be saved. She was brought back with CPR, the same technique that Lee and Lilly were attempting before Kenny murdered Larry.

    When I played I brought Larry back to life before Kenny killed him. His eyes were opening. What Kenny did was savage and cost him his relationship with his wife in later episodes. When I told his wife what Kenny did it broke her heart and probably influenced her decision to kill herself later because she couldn't take the way the world was changing everyone, including her husband and Kenny confirms in ep5 that he spent nights talking with her when she chewed him out about not caring for the rest of the group.

    Kenny's actions in the meat locker were done out of selfishness,fear, impatience and his refusal to let anything get in the way of him getting to his family. If Kenny's actions were really about saving the group he would not have kept Duck's bite from the group in the following episode. It was actually his wife who convinced him to let Lee in on the truth of their son's condition and even after Kenny put the group at risk because he wanted to wait it out and find a cure for his son.

    Attempting to save Larry or Maggie was a risk but in doing so the characters showed compassion and held on to their humanity. Of cause precautions in both cases would have been made. If Maggie turned she could have been shot before biting Glenn, if Larry turned Kenny could have dropped the salt lick before he attacked Lee or Lilly. He was on his back after all.

    Regarding Kenny fixing the RV one he only fixed it to save his family originally and two the pick up truck that they arrived to Macon in was still working. Glenn filled it with gas before he left the motor inn in ep1 so the group could have escaped without the RV. The group didn't really need to escape the motor inn any way that was just scripted to advance the plot so they would go onto Savannah. I say this because the group could have held off the bandits and the walkers by retreating to one of the motel rooms and firing from the windows. They still had a lot of guns at that point.

    Lastly I don't think Lilly would have been a danger to the whole group. She only had issues with Carly and Ben because she believed that at least one of them were guilty of taking the supplies. She didn't suspect anyone else. Had Carly and Ben have been removed from the group who else would be endangered by Lilly? She adored Clementine, trusted Lee and tolerated Kenny. I think she had good instincts. She wanted to get rid of Ben ultimately. After a few episodes so did I. When Lilly decided to steal the RV it was out of fear because in her state she believed the group would plan to kill her. When she agreed to leave with Lee and Clem she left with the RV because she didn't believe that Lee was willing to leave the group and go with her and she was right because when I chose that dialogue option I was trying to trick her. As I have said she has good instincts.

    I wouldn't blame Kenny for the bandit raid but I do blame him for Lilly's descent into mental health problems. I blame him for continuously goading her. She was on her last nerve when she snapped and killed Carly. Carly's argument was the straw that broke the camels back. Lilly would have reacted differently under different circumstances. i.e if their was more harmony in the group before hand. Kenny was a ball buster plain and simple. He argued with everybody. How many times did we as Lee have to stand between him and another character and calm him down? He argued with Lilly, He argued with Christa and he argued with Molly, both of which were fairly grounded and reasonable.

  • @dee23 said: Lastly I don't think Lilly would have been a danger to the whole group. She only had issues with Carly and Ben because she believed that at least one of them were guilty of taking the supplies. She didn't suspect anyone else. Had Carly and Ben have been removed from the group who else would be endangered by Lilly? She adored Clementine, trusted Lee and tolerated Kenny. I think she had good instincts. She wanted to get rid of Ben ultimately. After a few episodes so did I. Lilly deciding to steal the RV was out of fear because in her state she believed the group would plan to kill her.



    I disagree with this completely. For me her choice of targets are the reason why she would have been a danger.

    If she had shot Kenny i might have been able to accept that motive was pretty unlikely to ever be repeated, but in Murdering Carley she shot someone who had done nothing to her on a baseless suspicion, and an argument. With Ben she still had no evidence. They did very little to antagonize her compared to some of the others. The fact that if you remove Carley and her "take a page from Lee's book" speech she still shoots someone says it all.

    At least in the state she is in by episode 3 (though there are signs of it beforehand) it is so incredibly easy to push her to murder that it could have happened to anyone. Basically all Carley does (because i believe from the dialogue that even in this version she still thinks it was Ben) is to stand up to her, Once you've killed the first time, it going to get easier.

    At minimum i would say Ben, Kenn, Christa and Lee if you chose to kill Larry, would have been at serious risk if she was taken with the group and given any kind of freedom.

  • @LokiHavok said: Yeah that's true. But that small sign of life only means that Lilly's CPR worked. Or that he was about to reanimate. We'll never know.

    Lilly's shooting of Carley was flat-out overt murder. Kenny's choice was circumstantial. He made the most logical choice imo. I sided with him because of that.

    But then again I've overtly murdered characters in this game as Lee. The SaveLots woman for example. The Brothers Johns. So who am I to judge lol.


    Nah Larry was blatantly stirring and awaking after the 4th chest compression. his awakening was gradual unlike reanimation which is more sudden. If you don't do any that doesn't happen so if it was reanimation his mouth would have moved without you doing any compressions regardless. That was like an Easter egg moment for the few that were able to get enough compressions before Larry's head was smashed.

  • @dee23 said: As messed up as what Lilly did to Carly was Kenny still trumps her earlier in that episode when he watches Lee struggling when he is being attacked by walkers in the drug store. He waited to see if Lee was going to die which was like when Shane left Otis in the tv show. Lilly was mentally unstable when she shot Carly, Kenny had no excuse. He even states latter in ep5 that he spent many nights hating Lee's guts.



    He hates you if you don't back him absolutely and he can be a total dick about it, but its still nothing like Shane. Kenny however much he hates you will never actually attack you, like when Lee is pushed onto the floor he could easily do a "Shane/Otis" or a "Lilly/Carley" by shooting Lee, but for some reason he can't quite bring himself to that extreme.

    If Kenny doesn't like you he will just simply leave you to your fate, which while being very heartless is nothing like actually pulling the trigger for me.

    In terms of mental stability, there's only so much that can excuse from Lilly, I could live with her attitude and even the fact she left me die, but not what she did on the side of the road, Its not like the rest of the group was devoid of reasons to have a breakdown either. Carley/Doug are plagued by survivors guilt, Kenny loses his his wife and kid, Lee has his brother, the pressure to protect Clementine and then finally knowing that he is going to die, Lilly had the meat-locker incident. Only one of them has a breakdown, and really Lilly was already looking pretty ragged before her Dads death. I don't think she was cut out for the stress of leadership.

  • @Mark$man said: You don't know about Kenny's family on the road. They could have been walkers. Either way he was heading to Ft. Lauderdale, he wasn't staying anywhere. He also thought things would die down in a few days. He only realized things were so serious when Larry explained how people turned(which was half true). He helps Lee out because you are going the same direction. I can understand why he goes right past 'people'. For the most part, I'd do the same. You just can't trust people anymore. But if someone was in trouble, as in they desperately need my help, is where I'd help them out. Well, he helped out Lee and his little girl, who were being kicked out of the place they were taking refuge, and had no transportation, no weapons, no supplies. If Kenny hadn't given them a ride they'd of been screwed



    If they were walkers, I doubt Katjaa would've referred to them as "people who needed help" (as opposed to say, "crazy people trying to beat their way into the car and eat us")... and even if they were living impaired, Kenny wouldn't have known that at the time which means for all practical purposes, he was still no better than Lilly (and in fact worse, since he drove over people according to Katjaa's account).

    And the apologetic that "well, Lee's group clearly needed help" doesn't cut it either; since Katjaa eplicitly says the people Kenny drove past (and over) also needed help. If you can fault Lilly for wanting to leave Lee's group, it's incredibly hypocritical not to also fault Kenny based on the account of the man's own wife.

    And with the ride Kenny gives Lee, it's pretty clear Katjaa had to guilt-trip him into it given the look she gave him... Plus, let's not forget why they were banished from Hershel's farm in the first place. Incidentally, someone else who could've used Kenny's help and what happens? Kenny leaves him to die.

  • @The Fallen said: I disagree with this completely. For me her choice of targets are the reason why she would have been a danger.

    If she had shot Kenny i might have been able to accept that motive was pretty unlikely to ever be repeated, but in Murdering Carley she shot someone who had done nothing to her on a baseless suspicion, and an argument. With Ben she still had no evidence. They did very little to antagonize her compared to some of the others. The fact that if you remove Carley and her "take a page from Lee's book" speech she still shoots someone says it all.



    Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.

    And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.

  • @Rommel49 said: Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.

    And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.



    Doesn't mean you pull a gun on them! She put a vote to who would stay or not, and she was hypocritical to try to kill him anyway. And in Lilly's case, she tried to kill Carley with no evidence, and it was proved she was innocent

  • @Rommel49 said: Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.

    And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.



    That's hardly evidence, it's just assumptions and theories. Now, if the group happened to find some fingerprinting tool-kits or witnesses, then it's a different story...

    Maybe one of the group could have been an expert con-man, and waited so long solely to build up trust from the other survivors. Making everyone think you are the least likely candidate creates a perfect opportunity to commit the crime. Unlikely, but could have been possible. People do worse things in the zombie apocalypse.

    Ben's apology could have been seen as him apologizing for doing a crappy job on watch and not killing the bandits before they got inside the inn. That IS the purpose of the watch. Since he states that he's deathly afraid of Lilly, it adds up.

Add Comment