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Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

posted by YamiRaziel on - last edited - Viewed by 8.4K users

This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk

I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.


It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.

I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.

So, am I the only one? :D Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P

695 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • Lilly pulling a gun on ANYONE was wrong. If Ben had tried to grab a weapon or something, then by all rights shoot him. All he did was beg and plead not to be thrown out of the group. I'd say either throw him out or, if you're merciful, tie him up like Lilly and decide from there. I wouldn't trust him around our supplies or with a gun for a long time after that. He, nor anyone else, had to be shot to prove a point. Lilly let her Glock drive that point home through Carley's head while her back was turned, just because Carley told her something she didn't want to hear. It's a good thing Lilly made her exit from the game at that point, be it by fleeing or exile, because straight up murdering a group memberlike she did is nearly unforgiveable.

  • @Rommel49 said: In a given group, long-term; infections due to a lack of antibiotics would almost certainly kill more people than any other cause. It's the one good that can't be replaced. You can hunt for food, you can boil water. A wound gets infected? Pick a fungus, do some praying and hope it works (hint, it probably won't).

    And people tend to forget that the group had actually been holding off the bandits for weeks before they happened to stop attacking, Kenny says as much - hell, look at the wall during Lee's investigation. It's covered with arrows and bulletholes. We know they had been making runs into Macon during that time. All Ben's deal did was get the group to lower its guard... as evidenced by the fact Ben was the one on watch when the bandits were finally able to get in in the first place (he failed to notice an entire group of armed people approaching from an elevated position, Carley was able to spot the St. Johns from ground level).

    And you assume the raping, murdering bandits would've kept their end. Next thing they could've done before leaving was take Clementine as collateral.

    I didn't say I trusted them to keep their word, but at least wait it out and see. if those pricks tried to take Clem, then shoot their asses. But DON'T just go shooting the bandits if you don't have to. Obviously there were more of them. And no, they had a couple of small attacks by them, but nothing serious. And they were quiet for days after that. If you lower your guard during a zombie apocalypse, you are a fucking dumbass!(sorry for language). Seriously? It's more like that Lee and Kenny are the scavengers, so the only ones who could do watch would be Lilly or Ben(Carley if you chose her). Lilly is too cowardly to actually defend the motel herself, so she has a kid do it.

    Boiling infected water probably won't work in ya know blood's case, and you wouldn't want to risk it. Food and water are extremely limited, considering to find food you have to go out and hunt/fish/pick crops/root(which only lasts so long). Fish and animals need food too, and with walkers and humans dwindling their numbers, they aren't a reliable food source. Crops are nice, but you need water for your crops. You also need something protecting them, or others will steak them. If walkers walk by, they kick up sand/dust, yuck :P. If you kill one over them, they get the blood and guts all over 'em. I wouldn't want to grow crops with walkers underneath the ground either. So food and water is most important. Medicine I'd say isn't that important. If you get an infection, unless it's other than a zombie infection, you're fucked. You can't take medicine for it, nor can it stop you from turning. Patching the wound won't help either, unless you cut it off first. So giving a bit of meds to me was worth more than losing ALL the meds, ALL the food, a lot of the weapons, supplies, etc. They lost EVERYTHING, just because Lilly started a shootout.

    Either way, no matter who killed who, unless it was absolutely justified, they would be kicked out or executed, depending on the threat they pose. In such case, I'd of had Lilly executed, sorry Lilly fans.

  • @Mornai said: Fair enough... as for the original point, i doubt Lilly had your evidence in mind. Her "evidence" was Ben panicking upon thinking he would be thrown out of the group, and begging to stay. Many will plead like that rather than be thrown into the streets to survive by themselves. She didn't say anything to back up her claims and her willingness to convict Carley and completely forget Ben's crimes if he agreed to do so shows that she either had no evidence or didn't care about it at all, she just wanted someone to take the blame. Even if it was there, Lilly was likely not using it and did not have it.

    At the end of the day Lilly was a witch and needs to be burned at the stake. :mad:

    Oh, don't get me wrong. I left her on the side of the road and let her choke on my dust; had she only killed Ben though... it would've been a much harder call.

    @Mornai said: Lilly pulling a gun on ANYONE was wrong. If Ben had tried to grab a weapon or something, then by all rights shoot him. All he did was beg and plead not to be thrown out of the group. I'd say either throw him out or, if you're merciful, tie him up like Lilly and decide from there. I wouldn't trust him around our supplies or with a gun for a long time after that. He, nor anyone else, had to be shot to prove a point. Lilly let her Glock drive that point home through Carley's head while her back was turned, just because Carley told her something she didn't want to hear. It's a good thing Lilly made her exit from the game at that point, be it by fleeing or exile, because straight up murdering a group memberlike she did is nearly unforgiveable.

    Under the circumstances, there's really not that many options beyond shooting somebody or just letting people get away with stuff. I've covered this elsewhere. What other options are there, realistically? Don't trust them with a weapon or near supplies? You'll need to expend man-hours keeping an eye on them. Imprisonment? That's a non-productive group member that's still consuming resources. Hard labor? You're expending precious man-hours to make sure they actually do it. You prefer to exile them? Barring very good luck on their part, that's basically just a far less humane death sentence where you can pretend your hands are clean; if you're willing to do that, you might as well just kill them on the spot.

    In all cases, you're either expending time and energy better used on little things like survival, or effectively killing the accused/guilty anyway. Though, given what happened, it's a pretty good argument as to why nobody should be within arm's reach of a weapon when tempers are high.

  • @Mark$man said: I didn't say I trusted them to keep their word, but at least wait it out and see. if those pricks tried to take Clem, then shoot their asses. But DON'T just go shooting the bandits if you don't have to. Obviously there were more of them. And no, they had a couple of small attacks by them, but nothing serious. And they were quiet for days after that. If you lower your guard during a zombie apocalypse, you are a fucking dumbass!(sorry for language). Seriously? It's more like that Lee and Kenny are the scavengers, so the only ones who could do watch would be Lilly or Ben(Carley if you chose her). Lilly is too cowardly to actually defend the motel herself, so she has a kid do it.

    Prove it. "Small attacks" - the wall is covered in arrows and bullet holes. The fact is even despite Ben's incompetence (and that's generously assuming he intentionally didn't report the bandits approaching) which allowed the bandits to get through the outer gate and give them the element of surprise, they still failed to kill a single group member when the bullets started flying.

    There's really nothing good that can be said of your plan in this regard. If you're willing to let them in, sit down, negotiate, etc. with them, you've already lost your chance to regain the initiative if they do something like try to take Clem or another group member as collateral. By then, it's basically too late, you've forfeit the element of surprise... and it still requires hoping that that the murderers and rapists keep their end of the bargain.

    Lee knew this when he went out; at no point was there any prospect of legitimately negotiating with the bandits. He was out there solely to get them to drop their guard so Lilly could kill them from the high ground.

    If not for Ben, it's reasonably certain the bandits never would've even managed to get past the gate. Why? Because they failed to do so before.

    Boiling infected water probably won't work in ya know blood's case, and you wouldn't want to risk it. Food and water are extremely limited, considering to find food you have to go out and hunt/fish/pick crops/root(which only lasts so long). Fish and animals need food too, and with walkers and humans dwindling their numbers, they aren't a reliable food source. Crops are nice, but you need water for your crops. You also need something protecting them, or others will steak them. If walkers walk by, they kick up sand/dust, yuck :P. If you kill one over them, they get the blood and guts all over 'em. I wouldn't want to grow crops with walkers underneath the ground either. So food and water is most important. Medicine I'd say isn't that important. If you get an infection, unless it's other than a zombie infection, you're fucked. You can't take medicine for it, nor can it stop you from turning. Patching the wound won't help either, unless you cut it off first. So giving a bit of meds to me was worth more than losing ALL the meds, ALL the food, a lot of the weapons, supplies, etc. They lost EVERYTHING, just because Lilly started a shootout.

    Either way, no matter who killed who, unless it was absolutely justified, they would be kicked out or executed, depending on the threat they pose. In such case, I'd of had Lilly executed, sorry Lilly fans.

    What the hell are you talking about "infected" water? Damn near all water you collect from outdoors should be boiled due to everyday waterborne pathogens; whether it be protozoa, parasitic, bacterial, viral... this is Survivalism 101 stuff, literally one of the very first things you learn about living outdoors. Worrying about the zombie plague doesn't matter if you're killed by a crapping disease like E. Coli or Dysentery because you didn't boil the water you collected.

    Long-term, without things like antibiotics, I'd fully expect mundane diseases to kill more people than walkers do. A walker has to slowly lumber up to somebody and bite them; airborne or waterborne diseases don't care about how thick your walls are or how many guns you have, and they're a lot harder to notice.

    Hell, even then it's shown atleast in the TV series that boiling is apparently enough to make things like the prison riot gear taken off dead walkers clean and safe enough to use. Nobody balked at Hershel's suggestion to use the formerly walker-infested prison field to grow crops, etc.

  • Yeah, but they cleared the dead husks because they were afraid of growing crops on infected soil. And no shit sherlock, I know about purifying water, but it only clears so much. Blood is blood is blood, guts are guts, wherever you are getting your water, it has to be "zombie free". In the TV series, the walker that got trapped in the well? They didn't drink from that water again xD. THAT my friend, is infected water. And yeah, people will surely die of other diseases, and then they'll turn and kill others. The zombie plague will kill A LOT more. And yeah, diseases and the like are dangerous. However, many people are able to avoid them using precautions. People can get over common illnesses, but a bite is a sure death without an amputation(or maybe sucking the bite poison out, idk, never seen that yet). And Lee talks about "the bandits have had our number for days now. But they've been quiet for days". Something like that. Dude, if 30 bandits pop over that fence at once, no kid(especially Ben) will be able to stop them. And at Ben's POV, he proably saw them get the supplies, and when they discovered they weren't there, snuck over the fence. And not negotiate with bandits? Ben had before. Nobody died then? The St. Johns did, and the bandits only retaliated when they didn't receive their food. And not be able to retaliate if they tried to peace talk? They did before. I'd say fuck it and give them double or it all, you can get more meds fairly easily. For a while at least, many places probably weren't looted, and many households have a lot of medications. Even if things went terribly Lee had his pistol and Lilly had a frickin' rifle. I think they could handle several bandits just as they did there. Lilly wasn't seen, so she'd be a good handler if things really did go to shit.

  • Greetings, people, I'm back! :D I see the fire is still burning and my topic is HOT :D
    I'm not gonna read the last 3-4 pages because they contain a book of information and I feel lazy :P. So what is the latest debate? :D

    P.S Just scanned through the latest posts. Lilly is not a coward. She is definitely messed up but she is not a coward. Ben is a coward, Kenny is a coward... Lilly's not.

  • Seeing as how you're right about it being too much trouble to just keep Ben tied up, then he should be kicked out. Nobody needed to pull a weapon out, but Lilly decided to do it anyway. The kid didn't need to be shot. Carley didn't, and neither did Doug. Lilly went off the handle, and it cost an innocent person (Doug or Carley) their life.

    @Yami, nice to see you back! Ben may be a coward, but how is Kenny? In my game, the man willingly gave his life to save a pregnant woman from a horde of walkers... not exactly something a coward would do.

  • In my opinion Lily was lucky to just be left behind. It is a chance at life. One Doug/Carly never got. If the option was there I would have had Lee shoot her so she could never kill in cold blood ever again. I know people are gonna scream Kenny killed Larry and Lee is a convicted murderer but in both their cases Right or Wrong they both had good reasons. Kenny killed Larry over him coming back and killing all of them and Lee got into a fight with a guy who is screwin his wife and knocked him out of the window of the hotel in the heat of battle. (My guess on senator's death). Lily killed Doug/Carly for NO REASON at all. After she does it. Instead of explaning herself or truly appologizing she turns and points out Lee is a murderer. Tryin to divert the attention of this horrable act onto Lee. No remorse. Cold hearted. Selfish. Not only did she kill one of the group but also proved she does not care what the rest of the group is thinking. The vote was not totally going her way. So she shot. Leaving a crazy person alive is a liability anyway. Who is to say Her new goal in life is not to get revenge on the group. Again I'd drop that bitch like a bad habit. Lily is truly lucky with a chance at life in my eyes.

  • @YamiRaziel said: Greetings, people, I'm back! :D I see the fire is still burning and my topic is HOT :D
    I'm not gonna read the last 3-4 pages because they contain a book of information and I feel lazy :P. So what is the latest debate? :D

    P.S Just scanned through the latest posts. Lilly is not a coward. She is definitely messed up but she is not a coward. Ben is a coward, Kenny is a coward... Lilly's not.

    Welcome back. And she is a coward, read some other threads because its a bulk of an explanation and I'm busy and too lazy to write it all. I've written about it before as have other people like Jaded.

  • @Mark$man said: Yeah, but they cleared the dead husks because they were afraid of growing crops on infected soil. And no shit sherlock, I know about purifying water, but it only clears so much. Blood is blood is blood, guts are guts, wherever you are getting your water, it has to be "zombie free". In the TV series, the walker that got trapped in the well? They didn't drink from that water again xD. THAT my friend, is infected water. And yeah, people will surely die of other diseases, and then they'll turn and kill others. The zombie plague will kill A LOT more. And yeah, diseases and the like are dangerous. However, many people are able to avoid them using precautions. People can get over common illnesses, but a bite is a sure death without an amputation(or maybe sucking the bite poison out, idk, never seen that yet). And Lee talks about "the bandits have had our number for days now. But they've been quiet for days". Something like that. Dude, if 30 bandits pop over that fence at once, no kid(especially Ben) will be able to stop them. And at Ben's POV, he proably saw them get the supplies, and when they discovered they weren't there, snuck over the fence. And not negotiate with bandits? Ben had before. Nobody died then? The St. Johns did, and the bandits only retaliated when they didn't receive their food. And not be able to retaliate if they tried to peace talk? They did before. I'd say fuck it and give them double or it all, you can get more meds fairly easily. For a while at least, many places probably weren't looted, and many households have a lot of medications. Even if things went terribly Lee had his pistol and Lilly had a frickin' rifle. I think they could handle several bandits just as they did there. Lilly wasn't seen, so she'd be a good handler if things really did go to shit.

    First and foremost: Paragraphs are your friend.

    Second, how many walkers do you think are getting torn in half in rivers, streams, or ponds? You're being just a tad dishonest with that example. The whole exercise in trying to get that walker out in one piece in the first place was to make the well useable to the group... and as previosly noted, boiling the gunk-covered riot gear from the prison walkers was evidently enough to make it useable.

    Incidentally, we know from Maggie that the farm's livestock were watered from that well. Given the state of the walker in question, that livestock had to have been watered from the well while that walker was in it. The farm's livestock evidently never became sick and died as a result. That leaves two possibilities; either walkers don't actually contaminate water they're in (the characters only assumed such was the case), or whatever infection(s) walkers carry don't cross species lines. One of the two is demonstrably correct, if not both.

    The typical lookout (Carley) was able to spot the St. Johns while at ground level through the wall. Ben had an elevated position; unless he was mind numbingly incompetent or basically a traitor (by permitting the bandits to approach without raising an alarm) there's no way the bandits should have even made it past the treeline without the sentry raising an alarm. It's not like they were all that sneaky wearing white and gray against the background of orange leaves in autumn.

    Hell, the smartest thing would've been to just keep letting the bandits impotently fire at the wall. It's one of the basics of military doctrine; it's where the group has a fortified position, little things like cover and concealment... and as a general rule, an attacker needs a three to one advantage to have a reasonably good chance of success (and that assumes roughly equal amounts of competence... which was obviously not the case for the bandits). Make them fight on your terms, not after they've had an oppurtunity to get human shields.

    It's not like the bandits negotiated in good faith, and frankly, you'd have to be stupid to think they would. Ben? They originally told him they had his friend (idiot that Ben was, he believed them). Andy'll tell you the bandits killed a bunch of their farmhands. Jolene? She begged the bandits "every way she could" to get her daughter back... that didn't work out well for her.

    And I've covered this before. Nobody's producing new medication and every other surviving person is looking for the same resources. There's a reason that during a disaster, you're advised to have things like this before the crap hits the fan. Whatever gets used is gone. Given the specific sort of apocalyptic scenario (infection) in this case; medication like antibiotics were probably used in excess to try and treat it before soceity finally collapsed in its entirety. Even if you are lucky enough to find the stuff lying about? Most people won't even know the majority of antibiotics by name, so they could be looking at somebody's ED pills or birth control for all they know.

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