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Would you leave Lilly if she had killed Ben?

posted by Red Panda on - last edited - Viewed by 2.2K users

If, instead of Carley or Doug, Ben was killed would you leave Lilly by the road or taker her with you?

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  • @Mark$man said: And I read your post before replying, and I really don't get what you are talking about. I really don't care about her mentality as to her being basically a tyrant. And yes, I know what it means, although I may put my own twist to it. I'd say maybe more of a dictator. She is such a hypocrite that no matter the voting, her say is all that matters. Even though everyone wanted her to stop her accusations and voted to stop for the time being, she continued accusing Ben and Carley, and later tried to execute someone with no evidence or reason. Even after Kenny and others purpose to leave the motor inn, she still refuses to leave even though there is nothing there, just for her 'safety'. She puts her father and herself over anyone else, and as a leader that is not allowed. She is anything less than a leader, and as a leader she acts like how Kenny calls her "own personal dictatorship". I don't expect others to understand my hatred of Lilly or if they do, agree with it. However, it is how I feel that she is a horrible person and I feel that if I had had an option, I would have executed her. Sorry if you don't like that.



    Do...

    Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.

    I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.

    There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.

  • @anonymau5 said: Do...

    Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.

    I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.

    There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.



    More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"

    I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.

    Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.

    It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.

    Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...


    SaltlickLarry_zpsfa7e8cb5.png


    I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.

    He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.

    And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.

    While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?

    Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.

    Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.

    And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.

    Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.


    Lillypissedoff_zps419426aa.jpg


    People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.

    Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."

    And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.

    Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.


    LillyDisbelief_zps1b4e8c36.png


    She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.

    And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.

    And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.

    But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.

    We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.

    As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.

  • @anonymau5 said: Do...

    Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.

    I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.

    There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.



    People in older times with mental illnesses were plain executed, so quite the opposite until recently, actually :P. And yeah, I understood you talking about Lilly's "insecurities", but it means little to being a dictator lol. I don't see any excuses for her problems. For a mental person, she seemed to do fine with being in the Air Force, taking shit from her father, and her daily life problems. But suddenly when they are all safe, then it's a perfect time to go crazy. Yeah, she lost her father. No offense to her, but I really don't accept that. People lose family all the time, and that man was dead. There were no paramedics, no meds for him, and they were locked in a room with the soon-to-be zombie, and even if they saved him still had to find a way out. And no, she just wasn't a good leader. Even if she got her head straight, she still wouldn't be. Before all the shit that caused her mental breakdown, she was still a terrible person, and not fit for social life lol.

    I understand what you are saying, and yeah she probably had those problems, but no matter what they were problems that could not be fixed. Even if you cleared her insanity, she was still a bitch. Yeah, it is a game, but she is a realistic character(in person standards).

  • @Mark$man said: People in older times with mental illnesses were plain executed, so quite the opposite until recently, actually :P. And yeah, I understood you talking about Lilly's "insecurities", but it means little to being a dictator lol. I don't see any excuses for her problems. For a mental person, she seemed to do fine with being in the Air Force, taking shit from her father, and her daily life problems. But suddenly when they are all safe, then it's a perfect time to go crazy. Yeah, she lost her father. No offense to her, but I really don't accept that. People lose family all the time, and that man was dead. There were no paramedics, no meds for him, and they were locked in a room with the soon-to-be zombie, and even if they saved him still had to find a way out. And no, she just wasn't a good leader. Even if she got her head straight, she still wouldn't be. Before all the shit that caused her mental breakdown, she was still a terrible person, and not fit for social life lol.

    I understand what you are saying, and yeah she probably had those problems, but no matter what they were problems that could not be fixed. Even if you cleared her insanity, she was still a bitch. Yeah, it is a game, but she is a realistic character(in person standards).



    Oh no... she's a bitch. Let's execute her? Really?

    And, no excuses for her problems? She's probably been talked down to and mentally abused by her father her whole life. I never said she would be a good leader. I fucking said she would be a bad leader. Neither Kenny or Lilly would be good leaders. Hell, Ben would be a better leader than Lilly, because, while he was a dumb coward, he didn't have psychological issues. And you obviously don't understand psychological issues. You aren't just fine until you have a breakdown, and then you're crazy. No, she had these issues before her breakdown.

    And not many people have their only family, someone who she'd probably grown to depend upon, have their head destroyed in front of you. Yeah, people lose family, but not like that.

    So, you don't understand what I was saying. At all.

  • @Jaded X Gamer said: More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"

    I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.

    Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.

    It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.

    Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...


    SaltlickLarry_zpsfa7e8cb5.png


    I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.

    He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.

    And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.

    While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?

    Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.

    Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.

    And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.

    Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.


    Lillypissedoff_zps419426aa.jpg


    People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.

    Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."

    And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.

    Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.


    LillyDisbelief_zps1b4e8c36.png


    She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.

    And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.

    And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.

    But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.

    We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.

    As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.



    I agree with every word. I've stated I'd kill Lilly with no problem sleeping that night xD I'd probably have sweet dreams lol. There is no nice Lilly, not in the game, not in the comics, not in the fanfiction. She is horrible 360 degrees. If she comes back to the group I wouldn't let her live, I couldn't trust her around Clem. And yeah, I remember her talking about killing Lee, and with his BACK TURNED. Jesus, how many people does she have to kill like a coward before she feels good about herself? lol I really hate the woman. I love your rants, just because it fuels my rage for Lilly Caul :P

  • @Jaded X Gamer said: More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"

    I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.

    Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.

    It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.

    Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...


    SaltlickLarry_zpsfa7e8cb5.png


    I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.

    He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.

    And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.

    While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?

    Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.

    Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.

    And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.

    Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.


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    People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.

    Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."

    And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.

    Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.


    LillyDisbelief_zps1b4e8c36.png


    She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.

    And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.

    And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.

    But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.

    We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.

    As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.



    This is what I admire the most about you; you completely understand the characters in The Walking Dead way more than the rest of us and tell what their background history is before the plague, their feelings, reasons for their choices, their role, and other stuff like that.

  • I do not care what mental problems she may or may not of had. Air Force must of lowered standards if she is mental. I do know she is a weak minded selfish wanna be dictator cold blooded murdering hypocritical bitch that was lucky to suck my RV dust and not Carlys Glock.

  • @anonymau5 said: Oh no... she's a bitch. Let's execute her? Really?

    And, no excuses for her problems? She's probably been talked down to and mentally abused by her father her whole life. I never said she would be a good leader. I fucking said she would be a bad leader. Neither Kenny or Lilly would be good leaders. Hell, Ben would be a better leader than Lilly, because, while he was a dumb coward, he didn't have psychological issues. And you obviously don't understand psychological issues. You aren't just fine until you have a breakdown, and then you're crazy. No, she had these issues before her breakdown.

    And not many people have their only family, someone who she'd probably grown to depend upon, have their head destroyed in front of you. Yeah, people lose family, but not like that.

    So, you don't understand what I was saying. At all.



    Yeah, I really DO. I've had family die right in front of my eyes asshole! I don't even know where my brother is, I haven't seen him in maybe 3 years. My sister has been in a relationship with a damn psycho who tried committing suicide many times. You know nothing about me as a person, so until you do, don't give me that shit! I love my family more than a lot of people, even those who don't care about me back. But I won't murder someone on the spot for no reason. Don't fucking give Lilly that excuse that she can kill whoever she wants either, especially someone who has been nothing but beneficial to the group, because her precious daddy died! That's not how it works. I don't know what world you are living in man, but ANYONE who murders someone in cold blood, mentally stable or not, is going to prison. Same with Lee right? At least Lee had a reason, and a good one. Lilly killed Carley because she actually used her "freedom of speech".

    Yeah, in a functional world, she'd receive help, and be taken care of, but in the story, they can't drag a mentally unstable woman around with them, and I wouldn't let her just leave. She has thought about killing Lee, and so has most likely thought about killing Kenny. Ben? Definitely. She is a threat to the group, and who knows how long before HER itchy trigger finger got another person killed. There are no prisons, no mental asylums, and no supplies to keep a liability around. She had no sympathy for killing Carley/Doug, she just knew she was fucked, and that now she had nowhere to go. She killed Carley because she never liked her, but that is NO EXCUSE. You say how she is so dangerous, and yet you'd let her run free, that "get out of jail free" card. She was a terrible leader, you agree. So, since she knew she was snapping, why did she remain leader? Even after Kenny and Lee tried to step up while she recovered? Nobody could fill in? Sounds legit.

    I don't care about her problems, she knew she wasn't thinking clearly, she knew she had problems, yet she was playing leader and running around with a pistol. Don't give the "it's dangerous out there". In case you haven't realized, Clem and Ben and Duck had been running around with no weapons, Clem and Duck for three episodes. Yeah, Duck was bitten, but that was more of stupidity than anything, that they waited so long to head for the RV. That and bad timing as Lee was distracted.

    I didn't want her executed for being a bitch, I know many, and I wouldn't try to kill them even if I could, because I'm not like that. But put a gun to someone I care about? Harm them? Threaten those I like? Yeah, I will. And Lilly did all three for Lee. So yeah, I'd want her dead. Considering she was once made to be the Lilly of the comics, she never gets better. Actually, she gets worse, working for someone like the Governor. Her departure could have been a lot better than stealing the RV too.

    And yeah, I understand psychological issues too, but the thing is, it doesn't matter! I have known many people, none have a bad bone in their body. It is the combination of such, plus the fact she is an asshole, is why I can't forgive her. Kill Larry? She upright hates you. But leave Dan or Andy alive? Suddenly you are a dick for letting "piece of shits" live.

    I wouldn't let her live because if she makes it back to the group, she could cost another member of the group their life. So yeah, if I could, I'd probably have her killed, just as others dropped Ben for his in-capabilities,
    or wanted Larry or Duck dead since meeting them.

    Edit: Dude, I'm sorry for snapping at you, but don't go at someone for coming at their personal life if you don't know them. I'm not a bad guy, but I just wouldn't let her live, not after what she did. I just couldn't trust her, and there would be nothing able for her, as if it would matter. She'd still be horrible. But yeah, I have my opinions, you have yours. If you are going to argue, could you please not point at my lack of knowledge, my ignorance, my personal life, or stuff like that. It's walking dead, not Mark$man's story :P. But yeah... I sincerely apologize. That was out of tone. Sorry.

  • Every time i come on here to reply to post about Lilly there's a an essay from Jaded X that is so much better than anything i could write. :p

    In the end there are a lot of reasons why she turns out the way she does, some of them sympathetic, others less so, but regardless she is dangerous and well past the point of no return with what she has done, there is no excuse that could ever be good enough.

    As for her mental state the sick may not be executed by they are kept well out of the way of people they might hurt and are then treated by professional psychologists, not exactly possible in the situation, so while it's interesting to examine her character it doesn't really matter because the only choice that makes sense is to leave her, if not kill her before she hurts anyone else.

  • If an 8 year old girl can maintain after losing both parents. If Kenny can watch his wife and son die. If Lee can lose both parents and hack his brothers head into. If Carly can watch her news crew get eaten and listen to deaths of her friends. All these people dealing with death in number of ways some good some bad some sad but none of them turned and started shootin the people around them. For this reason it just proves how unstable Lily is. Sure no one wants to see there family killed but that is no excuse for Lily to threaten a child. Ben is a child. 16 is not an adult mind. Any adult that wants to kill a kid for stealing is fuckin sick. Nor is it reason enough to shoot an innocent woman who has not threaten Lily with any violence. So Larry getting his face mashed in is no excuse.

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