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Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

posted by YamiRaziel on - last edited - Viewed by 7.9K users

This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk

I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.


It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.

I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.

So, am I the only one? :D Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P

695 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • Paragraphs are not my friend. What have they done for me lately?

  • @Rommel49 said: First and foremost: Paragraphs are your friend.

    Second, how many walkers do you think are getting torn in half in rivers, streams, or ponds? You're being just a tad dishonest with that example. The whole exercise in trying to get that walker out in one piece in the first place was to make the well useable to the group... and as previosly noted, boiling the gunk-covered riot gear from the prison walkers was evidently enough to make it useable.

    Incidentally, we know from Maggie that the farm's livestock were watered from that well. Given the state of the walker in question, that livestock had to have been watered from the well while that walker was in it. The farm's livestock evidently never became sick and died as a result. That leaves two possibilities; either walkers don't actually contaminate water they're in (the characters only assumed such was the case), or whatever infection(s) walkers carry don't cross species lines. One of the two is demonstrably correct, if not both.

    The typical lookout (Carley) was able to spot the St. Johns while at ground level through the wall. Ben had an elevated position; unless he was mind numbingly incompetent or basically a traitor (by permitting the bandits to approach without raising an alarm) there's no way the bandits should have even made it past the treeline without the sentry raising an alarm. It's not like they were all that sneaky wearing white and gray against the background of orange leaves in autumn.

    Hell, the smartest thing would've been to just keep letting the bandits impotently fire at the wall. It's one of the basics of military doctrine; it's where the group has a fortified position, little things like cover and concealment... and as a general rule, an attacker needs a three to one advantage to have a reasonably good chance of success (and that assumes roughly equal amounts of competence... which was obviously not the case for the bandits). Make them fight on your terms, not after they've had an oppurtunity to get human shields.

    It's not like the bandits negotiated in good faith, and frankly, you'd have to be stupid to think they would. Ben? They originally told him they had his friend (idiot that Ben was, he believed them). Andy'll tell you the bandits killed a bunch of their farmhands. Jolene? She begged the bandits "every way she could" to get her daughter back... that didn't work out well for her.

    And I've covered this before. Nobody's producing new medication and every other surviving person is looking for the same resources. There's a reason that during a disaster, you're advised to have things like this before the crap hits the fan. Whatever gets used is gone. Given the specific sort of apocalyptic scenario (infection) in this case; medication like antibiotics were probably used in excess to try and treat it before soceity finally collapsed in its entirety. Even if you are lucky enough to find the stuff lying about? Most people won't even know the majority of antibiotics by name, so they could be looking at somebody's ED pills or birth control for all they know.

    True about the pills, and they eventually expire. However, those meds weren't the only ones on earth.

    Also, you basically answered your own question with Ben's incompetence haha.

    The bandits were bad people, no doubt, but was the answer to actually start a shootout? One person with a semi or bolt action won't take out four bandits alone, and all the group together couldn't take on the mass amounts of walkers.

    Yes, the water was contaminated. It was confirmed somewhere, although I can't remember(how fortunate :D). Also, putting riot gear on isn't the same as licking it off xD. They didn't eat the walker glop lol. They cleaned it off. They say most bacteria only lasts three days, and I doubt they would serve their meals on the riot gear! Also, you see those of the group and in the comics drinking bottled water, water caught from rain, or small streams to lakes where they assume the water is drinkable(of course they boil it first though).

    I'd be stupid to think they would? They were already going to. Give them the supplies, apologize, and give Ben as an offering in good faith(kidding).
    If they tried anything foolish, then shoot the hell out of them. Lee had a pistol ready and Lilly was unnoticed with a rifle. As long as there were only four of them, they could have slit their throats once they went inside to negotiate for all I care lol. Then drive off in the RV before the other bandits could react. But at a leader standpoint? Shooting out in such a situation was a seriously bad call. I can't say there were great ones, but with the information she had, it wasn't a bright idea. Say the bandits weren't complete morons. Lilly can only down one at a time, and the bandits had some of the group at gunpoint. She had no idea how many were out in the woods, nor how many walkers were lurking. She should have known they'd be pressed for time with such an option, and such would cost them more dearly. You talk about how meds are important, but you do realize by doing that they lost ALL the meds? Not to mention the food, weapons, ammunition, and other valuable supplies left behind.

    And yeah, if one man shoots a walker in a body of water, blood and possibly guts will flow xD. If a walker was already losing blood or had guts hanging out, it would easily contaminate the water. Remember the zombie with the barely connected head? imagine him trying to cross a harsh-flowing river. Bye bye head, hello brains :D. And considering the fact that walkers are seriously retarded, they could fall off a cliff and not give a fuck. So... yeah, there's my take on that one lol.

    And no, maybe the walker had newly found it's way into that well. Most likely, considering the walker still had many blood stains and the like on him. Also, for skin, water deprives of oil, and causes skin to shrivel from the loss of oils. That walker looked fine to me lol. Could have just been you know, invulnerable to water though, who knows!? Take info on zombies with popcorn and a grain of salt. Be entertained, but don't always assume :P. If you don't see someone die, they aren't dead. If you don't hear it said or it isn't seen, it isn't true. If someone says something about the apocalypse, don't always believe it. Unless you are 100% sure, do not eat or drink anything that may be contaminated. And of course, never trust walkers! They may ask for hugs, but they want your intestines! 1-10 retardation scale, with a ten being high-fiving walkers ;)

  • @GREYxDUZxKRUSH said: Paragraphs are not my friend. What have they done for me lately?

    LMFAO, hey, Ken's my friend. Why you say that lately?

    And paragraphs are my downfall, I just can't seem to know when to indent xD

  • @Mark$man said: True about the pills, and they eventually expire. However, those meds weren't the only ones on earth.

    Also, you basically answered your own question with Ben's incompetence haha.

    The bandits were bad people, no doubt, but was the answer to actually start a shootout? One person with a semi or bolt action won't take out four bandits alone, and all the group together couldn't take on the mass amounts of walkers.

    Yes, the water was contaminated. It was confirmed somewhere, although I can't remember(how fortunate :D). Also, putting riot gear on isn't the same as licking it off xD. They didn't eat the walker glop lol. They cleaned it off. They say most bacteria only lasts three days, and I doubt they would serve their meals on the riot gear! Also, you see those of the group and in the comics drinking bottled water, water caught from rain, or small streams to lakes where they assume the water is drinkable(of course they boil it first though).

    I'd be stupid to think they would? They were already going to. Give them the supplies, apologize, and give Ben as an offering in good faith(kidding).
    If they tried anything foolish, then shoot the hell out of them. Lee had a pistol ready and Lilly was unnoticed with a rifle. As long as there were only four of them, they could have slit their throats once they went inside to negotiate for all I care lol. Then drive off in the RV before the other bandits could react. But at a leader standpoint? Shooting out in such a situation was a seriously bad call. I can't say there were great ones, but with the information she had, it wasn't a bright idea. Say the bandits weren't complete morons. Lilly can only down one at a time, and the bandits had some of the group at gunpoint. She had no idea how many were out in the woods, nor how many walkers were lurking. She should have known they'd be pressed for time with such an option, and such would cost them more dearly. You talk about how meds are important, but you do realize by doing that they lost ALL the meds? Not to mention the food, weapons, ammunition, and other valuable supplies left behind.

    And yeah, if one man shoots a walker in a body of water, blood and possibly guts will flow xD. If a walker was already losing blood or had guts hanging out, it would easily contaminate the water. Remember the zombie with the barely connected head? imagine him trying to cross a harsh-flowing river. Bye bye head, hello brains :D. And considering the fact that walkers are seriously retarded, they could fall off a cliff and not give a fuck. So... yeah, there's my take on that one lol.

    And no, maybe the walker had newly found it's way into that well. Most likely, considering the walker still had many blood stains and the like on him. Also, for skin, water deprives of oil, and causes skin to shrivel from the loss of oils. That walker looked fine to me lol. Could have just been you know, invulnerable to water though, who knows!? Take info on zombies with popcorn and a grain of salt. Be entertained, but don't always assume :P. If you don't see someone die, they aren't dead. If you don't hear it said or it isn't seen, it isn't true. If someone says something about the apocalypse, don't always believe it. Unless you are 100% sure, do not eat or drink anything that may be contaminated. And of course, never trust walkers! They may ask for hugs, but they want your intestines! 1-10 retardation scale, with a ten being high-fiving walkers ;)

    When it comes to a finite good like pills, you don't take chances. Especially given that the infrastructure's probably going to be trashed; no maintained roads, etc. (meaning you'll probably be doing more walking than you'd like).

    Start a shootout with the bandits? Absolutely. Hell, had they been contested as soon as they were seen (I'm positive Ben deliberately let them get as close as they did, since he was already working with them and the bandits apparently knew to avoid Doug's alarm); odds are they never would've made it in to take hostages in the first place, as was evidently the case the previous times they attacked. The bandits are coming from the woods, incidentally, any walkers attracted by gunfire are also going to come from the woods (as we saw). That leaves a fortified, defended position to the bandits' front, potentially walkers to their rear.

    Ben's dealing with the bandits in the first place and allowing them to get to the gate uncontested was what cost the group their supplies. He chose to be the bandits' accomplice, that's nobody's fault but his and to his credit, even he understood it was his fault.

    If the bandits "try anything foolish" while they have hostages? It's basically too late, you've forfeit the initiative. Lilly knew this, as did Lee - at no point was Lee actually trying to make a deal with the bandits, at no point does he disagree with Lilly about the plan. The bandits already have guns on the group - the first "foolish" thing they do could be to kill a hostage like Clem to prove they're serious; whoops, too late for you. By striking first you put them on the defensive. That Lilly only had a bolt-action rifle doesn't matter, because the bandits don't know that. Realistically, she wouldn't need to kill everybody in one go anyway, that's something people get from Hollywood: from experience, when bullets start flying, people seek cover. The overwhelming majority of rounds expended in combat are meant to suppress, i.e. force the enemy to keep their heads down so they're more focused on staying alive rather than say, killing people... and it basically worked, the remaining hostage takers were either too confused to know what to do, or ran for cover.

    And yeah, you would have to be stupid to think the bandits would deal in good faith. Ben's deal with them started in the first place because they lied about having Ben's friend; Jolene begged them "every way she could" for her little girl and they laughed in her face.

    And no, not only was it stated by the creators in the design of the well walker that it looked the way it did because it had been in the water for quite some time (which is incidentally why it doesn't look like... oh, any other walker in the series). It's really pretty damn obvious to anybody that has these things called "eyes". Particularly given the fact that it was so saturated that it took multiple people to lift it out of the well and that basically it split in half under its own weight when they tried to pull it over the lip of the well. So, again, leaves us two options; either animals are immune, or whatever zombies carry doesn't contaminate water - atleast one is demonstably correct, if not both.

  • It's just another uncertainty, and TWD really won't go into it. It really doesn't matter to them. One day, they might tell us, but for now, it's not a fact. The Greene's had other wells, so they didn't need that one, and who knows if the animals or anyone drank from it AFTER the zombie got in there. However, Dale certainly caused a panic to T-Dog whi was about to drink the water, and they seemed to want the walker out pretty badly. If having a walker in the water was harmless, why would they try to get him out? Why not just shoot him in the head and let his guts get everywhere if zombies can't contaminate walkers? If they are that thirsty, they'd drink it right? But why go through so much trouble to get the walker out, using Glenn as bait no less lol. It doesn't make any sense, apparently the walkers either contaminate the water, or they just didn't want zombie guts in their water. If I was in an apocalypse, and that water wouldn't kill me or make me sick, hell I'd drink it. I'd take it all, since everyone else wouldn't want it. But no, they leave it alone, moving to a different well. So who knows? Not us :P lol

  • They took Jolene's daughter because they were "rapist monsters". Besides, Jolene had little use to them. What did she have? lol The St. John's were attacked at the beginning and killed some of their farmhands. However, then they made a deal with them, and they left them alone. They didn't take anyone, nobody was used as a bartering chip/hostage(well... except Duck, but he was meat to them lol). If the bandits killed anyone, they knew they'd be getting themselves into trouble. You don't take hostages to kill all you are holding, you use them to get what you want; the supplies. The bandits had all but Lee and Lilly held hostage, if they wanted to, they could have easily taken the entire place by force. The fact that they didn't mean't they weren't there to kill, just to take what was theirs. They didn't even know Lilly was there, so as far as they were concerned, Lee was the only one left, and the one bandit had him at gunpoint. Why not kill them all, and just take everything? Because they needed them for the supplies, and with them all alive, they'd get insurance on their "finance". keeping the group alive would, in time, produce more supplies for them, if they watched them. And the one bandit even explained "Why? This guy, why? Cause we gotta, that's why!" As in they needed to do it, albeit it was wrong, they needed to do it to survive. Had they made a deal, there is a strong chance a deal would have been made and the bandits would have made peace with the group, maybe keep a better eye on them, but leave them alone. And it would only take one dark night where they couldn't be watched to sneak out with the RV, never to be seen again. I can't say for sure the bandits wouldn't kill someone as a warning (take BEN!) but I think odds were with how the bandits needed the group, that they'd try to stay on their "good side". Killing someone of the group that had family or was liked at least would seriously piss off the group, so if they had to kill someone it'd be like Ben. Only one I can see to take the fall, considering. No offense to Ben, but that'd be a worthy sacrifice. That'd be a trade of Ben for Carley/Doug, Lilly(although I hate her), Katjaa, and Duck. Eventually Brie, Kenny, and I'd say Lee, considering with most the group back, and people who would actually WATCH Clementine from leaving on her own, she'd probably never have been taken by the stranger, and they'd have all survived. The only problem would have been who was going on that boat :P

  • @Mark$man said: It's just another uncertainty, and TWD really won't go into it. It really doesn't matter to them. One day, they might tell us, but for now, it's not a fact. The Greene's had other wells, so they didn't need that one, and who knows if the animals or anyone drank from it AFTER the zombie got in there. However, Dale certainly caused a panic to T-Dog whi was about to drink the water, and they seemed to want the walker out pretty badly. If having a walker in the water was harmless, why would they try to get him out? Why not just shoot him in the head and let his guts get everywhere if zombies can't contaminate walkers? If they are that thirsty, they'd drink it right? But why go through so much trouble to get the walker out, using Glenn as bait no less lol. It doesn't make any sense, apparently the walkers either contaminate the water, or they just didn't want zombie guts in their water. If I was in an apocalypse, and that water wouldn't kill me or make me sick, hell I'd drink it. I'd take it all, since everyone else wouldn't want it. But no, they leave it alone, moving to a different well. So who knows? Not us :P lol

    Again with an appeal to ignorance. The characters don't know that walkers contaminate wells, because they never confirmed it (not that it's an unwise precaution). They simply assumed the walker contaminated the well.

    It's like saying because you should always boil or otherwise purify water found on the ground, such water will always make you sick if you don't. No, it's possible (or probable) it could make you sick. Same thing here.

    The only way to actually confirm that the infection can be spread via water or when otherwise ingested? Know that someone drank that sort of water, die and reanimate from no other cause.

    What we do know is that the farm's livestock were presently drinking from that well and had in the past: Maggie explicitly says they use that well for the farm's animals, present tense (so any talk about "oh, we don't know" is bunk, they were keeping things like chickens and horses that need frequent access to water, not camels), we know the walker was in that well for a lengthy period of time since the creators confirmed it (not that it should be necessary, since it's kinda obvious to people with you know, eyes).

    As such, that still leaves only those two possibilities I've previously mentioned. Because it was confirmed that animals drank water from the well (and that they had to while the walker was in it) and didn't die as a result. It's the scientific method at its most basic; that's why I list those two possibilities, because the evidence we see shows atleast one of the two (if not both) is the case.

  • @Mark$man said: They took Jolene's daughter because they were "rapist monsters". Besides, Jolene had little use to them. What did she have? lol The St. John's were attacked at the beginning and killed some of their farmhands. However, then they made a deal with them, and they left them alone. They didn't take anyone, nobody was used as a bartering chip/hostage(well... except Duck, but he was meat to them lol). If the bandits killed anyone, they knew they'd be getting themselves into trouble. You don't take hostages to kill all you are holding, you use them to get what you want; the supplies. The bandits had all but Lee and Lilly held hostage, if they wanted to, they could have easily taken the entire place by force. The fact that they didn't mean't they weren't there to kill, just to take what was theirs. They didn't even know Lilly was there, so as far as they were concerned, Lee was the only one left, and the one bandit had him at gunpoint. Why not kill them all, and just take everything? Because they needed them for the supplies, and with them all alive, they'd get insurance on their "finance". keeping the group alive would, in time, produce more supplies for them, if they watched them. And the one bandit even explained "Why? This guy, why? Cause we gotta, that's why!" As in they needed to do it, albeit it was wrong, they needed to do it to survive. Had they made a deal, there is a strong chance a deal would have been made and the bandits would have made peace with the group, maybe keep a better eye on them, but leave them alone. And it would only take one dark night where they couldn't be watched to sneak out with the RV, never to be seen again. I can't say for sure the bandits wouldn't kill someone as a warning (take BEN!) but I think odds were with how the bandits needed the group, that they'd try to stay on their "good side". Killing someone of the group that had family or was liked at least would seriously piss off the group, so if they had to kill someone it'd be like Ben. Only one I can see to take the fall, considering. No offense to Ben, but that'd be a worthy sacrifice. That'd be a trade of Ben for Carley/Doug, Lilly(although I hate her), Katjaa, and Duck. Eventually Brie, Kenny, and I'd say Lee, considering with most the group back, and people who would actually WATCH Clementine from leaving on her own, she'd probably never have been taken by the stranger, and they'd have all survived. The only problem would have been who was going on that boat :P

    Again, paragraphs.

    And how old are you? Seriously, I have to ask that if you actually failed to put two and two together here when it came to Jolene. When she called them "rapist monsters" and "Begged them everyway she could"? You really can't think of anything "rapist monsters" might want from a woman? Really? I note you don't even contest the fact that they lied to Ben right off the bat about having his friend.

    And are you kidding? Damn near the very first thing the bandit leader suggests is killing them all and taking everything... Lee's the one who tells the bandits they'll need them to gather supplies. Beyond that, assuming Ben's traitorous ass didn't tell them how many people were in the group to begin with, taking hostages is a great way to get anybody else out in the line of fire where they can't defend themselves as well. Hell, something similar is done by terrorists today; where they make an initial strike, wait for guys like first responders to show up to help then strike again solely to guarantee a higher body count.

    The fact that Ben deliberately worked against the interests of the group by dealing with the bandits and compromising their security is hardly Lilly's fault. Most people don't get this, but leadership isn't some magical statistic or something where if it's high enough, people just magically fall in line and do what they should. If somebody's dead set on hating whoever's in charge or just doing their own thing; the person in charge can have all the leadership power of Alexander the Great or whatever historical leader strikes your fancy and it won't matter.

  • @Rommel49 said: Again, paragraphs.

    And how old are you? Seriously, I have to ask that if you actually failed to put two and two together here when it came to Jolene. When she called them "rapist monsters" and "Begged them everyway she could"? You really can't think of anything "rapist monsters" might want from a woman? Really? I note you don't even contest the fact that they lied to Ben right off the bat about having his friend.

    And are you kidding? Damn near the very first thing the bandit leader suggests is killing them all and taking everything... Lee's the one who tells the bandits they'll need them to gather supplies. Beyond that, assuming Ben's traitorous ass didn't tell them how many people were in the group to begin with, taking hostages is a great way to get anybody else out in the line of fire where they can't defend themselves as well. Hell, something similar is done by terrorists today; where they make an initial strike, wait for guys like first responders to show up to help then strike again solely to guarantee a higher body count.

    The fact that Ben deliberately worked against the interests of the group by dealing with the bandits and compromising their security is hardly Lilly's fault. Most people don't get this, but leadership isn't some magical statistic or something where if it's high enough, people just magically fall in line and do what they should. If somebody's dead set on hating whoever's in charge or just doing their own thing; the person in charge can have all the leadership power of Alexander the Great or whatever historical leader strikes your fancy and it won't matter.

    No, because if you can't make them follow, you aren't much of a leader. a stem of leader is LEAD. And yeah, I said "rapist monsters" for a reason. However, they took the girl because the woman was of no use to her. She had nothing they wanted except her daughter. And yes it is, at the very least for putting Ben on watch. A kid you barely know to guard the group? Is that not stupid?
    Yeah, I know how terrorism works, and no, there were other ways to handle it besides direct violence. They did nothing to Ben but try to scare him. They didn't harm him, and only threatened to kill them. It was a bluff.
    And why would it be needed to bring up if EVERYONE with eyes and ears knows it? Whoo, Ben was lied to, wahhhhh, give him a cookie. It's not as bad as killing someone to scare him. And yeah, I like how you point to my age as an actual defense in your point, as if it has anything to do with it. As if that is mature. At this point in time, who really doesn't know what the hell is being stated? I actually figured considering it was so obvious anyone with half a brain could realise it. And also, yeah I write big, bulky, clusterfucks of text, I'm sorry if you can't handle it, I figured people with at least a third grade education could read. :P

    No offense dude, but I really don't like to be attacked on what is to be an opinion about a thread. I mean, calm down a little :P Having your own thoughts on it is fine, and arguing my points is as well, but try not to chastise me bro! It's lil harsh lol

  • I will never ever use paragraphs again. Just because of the college professor above bleeding out of his ass.

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