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Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

posted by YamiRaziel on - last edited - Viewed by 4.4K users

This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk

I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.


It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.

I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.

So, am I the only one? :D Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P

695 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • I don't necessarily want to get into a debate regarding a character I don't like but I'll say this:

    @Jaded X Gamer said:
    She doesn't regret killing Carley, the first thing she says afterwards is "She couldn't be trusted! I swear!" Her face says "What did I just do to myself!" She never says she's sorry and she never asks for forgiveness because in her eyes she didn't do anything all that wrong. Her only regret was by killing Carley it turned the group against her. If they had for some bizarre reason agreed with what she did she could care less.
    I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:

    "She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."

    Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.

    I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.

    So yeah, I'll take that asshole Kenny over Lilly any day of the week. He lost his whole family too and even at his very worse he treated me better than Lilly at her very best.
    I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me. I sided with Kenny almost entirely through my playthrough, but he claims I hadn't. That I was never there for him. Why? Because I refused to kill Larry. The result of which? He'd leave Clementine in the hands of, what could easily be, a rapist. That is just so wrong on so many levels, it's only made worse due to the continued support I consistently gave him through out every episode.

    Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?
    [LIST]
    [*]Lilly takes an RV that apparently had very little life left in it
    [*]Kenny leaves Clementine in the hands of what could easily be a rapist
    [/LIST]
    I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.

    This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.

  • @CarScar said: I don't necessarily want to get into a debate regarding a character I don't like but I'll say this:


    I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:

    "She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."

    Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.

    I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.


    I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me. I sided with Kenny almost entirely through my playthrough, but he claims I hadn't. That I was never there for him. Why? Because I refused to kill Larry. The result of which? He'd leave Clementine in the hands of, what could easily be, a rapist. That is just so wrong on so many levels, it's only made worse due to the continued support I consistently gave him through out every episode.

    Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?
    [LIST]
    [*]Lilly takes an RV that apparently had very little life left in it
    [*]Kenny leaves Clementine in the hands of what could easily be a rapist
    [/LIST]
    I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.

    This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.



    A rapist? Vernon? Where did you get that?

    Besides i consider shooting my closest friend in the head to be a negative action towards me.

    It's certainly not an appreciation thread anymore, but it more a discussion on her character than a "hate thread" she has a fair few defenders, the debate was always going to happen, there are a few angles to approach her character from and that's why she was such a good one (character not person...)

  • @CarScar said: I don't necessarily want to get into a debate regarding a character.



    Then don't if that's how you feel, but I don't mind a debate and I don't care this is a Lilly appreciation thread. I'm not doing this just to make trouble, but if you want to insist Lilly is just some sort of misunderstood person then don't be surprised if someone has a differing opinion.

    If you want to leave this at agreeing to disagree that's fine too, but as long you're pleading your case...

    I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:

    "She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."

    Katjaa is also in favor of leaving Lilly on the side of the road. And Lilly possibly being in shock doesn't mean she's sorry for murdering Carley. It sounds a lot more like she was sorry for herself. No matter what you did she'll out Lee as a murderer to protect herself and insists she has NOTHING left, suggesting to me no one in the group, even Lee if he's been a saint to her, means anything to her.

    Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.

    Human? The fucking St. Johns are human, the bandits are human, the stranger is a human. Humans are capable of doing some pretty heinous shit, it's probably the Walking Dead core theme. And I've never said Lilly was a soulless demon, I've said she's a selfish asshole who eventually became an amoral sociopath. :p

    I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.

    Even before Larry died she wasn't exactly a bastion of reasonable behavior. She repeatedly insists on leaving people, from Lee and Kenny's families in Macon (who were only saved because Carley of Glenn) to Ben and his company to telling Mark he's only there because he had food at one point. She refuses to discuss anything people disagree with her about and she contradicts herself. She won't consider leaving the hotel but complains about there being no food, yet she has no idea of where to get food. What the fuck? How much reason would this woman really see if Larry hadn't died? If he hadn't died he'd be there probably insisting with Lilly to throw Carley or Ben out on the road after the bandit attack. Don't forget Larry tried to kill Lee after Lee saved his life!

    And how is it Lilly's instability gives her a pass on so much of her behavior but Kenny's doesn't? You don't think Kenny was losing his shit after his son slowly died and his wife shot herself? The events of episodes 3-5 take place over a period of what, three or four days? During which Kenny sees a kid who died of malnutrition as a zombie. How stable did you really think he was?

    Not to mention this is on top of the fact that nearly fucking everyone has seen horrible shit at this point. Clem was stuck alone in a tree house for days avoiding her reanimated babysitter and has no idea what happened to her parents in the months that follow. Carley watched her news editor get eaten right in front of her and if you fix the radio she gets the pleasure of hearing most of friends probably die. Ben has no idea what happened to his family and spends months watching all of his classmates get picked off one by one. Lee finds out his parents are dead and has to finish off his zombified brother just to get keys to save Larry who turns around and tries to murder him for the favor!

    I'm sorry, I don't buy her being unstable as a justification for how she acts, especially considering she refuses to talk to anyone about it and was horribly unreasonable and often heartless BEFORE her instability. And how much time did she need to grieve? Kenny says in episode three the bandits had the group's number for WEEKS! Even assuming the writer's just messed up the time passage, it seems like at very least several days pass between episode two and three. What happens to her, horrible as it is, doesn't seem any more horrible then what most of the group has seen.

    I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me.

    Yes I know, you never stop bringing it up. I too was disgusted that he wouldn't willingly come with me to find Clementine because I didn't help him kill Larry. But you seem so focused on this one shitty act you're overlooking all the nasty shit Lilly really did.

    Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?

    Mind if I make a more complete list?
    Kenny's Worst at his Worst
    [LIST]
    [*]Panics and doesn't try to save Shawn. Never stops blaming himself for it.
    [*]Smashes Larry head in out of fear he may reanimate.
    [*]Chickenshits out of helping Lee fight Danny St. John.
    [*]Makes no effort to help Lee at the pharmacy in episode three.
    [*]Angered by his son's fate, he fights Lee.
    [*]Suggests leaving Omid behind because he's hurt.
    [*]Suggests not taking Molly on boat after she saved his life and is working to fix said boat.
    [*]Wants to beat the shit out of Ben after he admitted he was responsible for his family's fate, then goads Lee on to let Ben die.
    [*]Won't come with you to help find Clementine when she goes missing.
    [/LIST]

    Lilly's Worst at her Best
    [LIST]
    [*]Yells at Carley and Glenn for not letting five people, two of which are children, get eaten fifteen feet outside the drugstore door.
    [*]Does nothing to stop out of control father to try and kill ten year old boy without bothering to see if he's really bitten or not.
    [*]Runs off during drugstore attack while other able bodied adults try to protect it long enough to get everyone else out.
    [*]Screams at Mark, Lee, and Kenny for not letting a teenager and his teacher/classmate get eaten.
    [*]Leaves inept teenager that she doesn't trust on watch while she knows someone is stealing supplies.
    [*]Screams at people when this is brought to her attention.
    [*]Sends Lee out as live bait while she falls back to a safer distance with a rifle.
    [*]Murders either innocent woman she's known for months in paranoid fit of rage or accidentally shoots an innocent man in the back of the head while trying to surprise execute possible guilty party, all despite a complete lack of hard evidence and push back from entire group except maybe Lee.
    [*]When accused of being a murderer, outs Lee as a murderer, even if he's been both Lilly's greatest ally and just prevented Kenny from abandoning her.
    [*]Steals, as far as she knew, the group's only means of transportation, stranding five people, two of which are young children, in the middle of nowhere, and for good measure, lies to Lee about taking him and Clem with her.
    [/LIST]

    And that's Lilly's BEST. If you're less than supportive she also watches Andy nearly kills Lee while Clementine looks on in horror, accuses you of stealing supplies, and talks about how she thought about killing Lee when his back is turned.

    I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.

    I'm sorry, what's that? About Lilly not being in that situation that Kenny so horribly pissed you off with? Why wasn't she there? Oh, that's right, because there's no way to convince her to not abandon Lee and Clementine. I agree that having to guilt trip Kenny to come with you if you hadn't done most everything he wanted is extremely shitty of him, but at least there is some way to get him to come!

    The only way to prevent Lilly from ditching everyone is to ditch her first. Nothing you say or do will convince her otherwise, and if you agree to come with her, she leaves you anyways the second you go to get Clementine! You really think this woman would have gone with Lee to rescue Clementine?

    The same person who wanted to leave them both and three others outside the drugstore? Who constantly stayed behind while Lee, Kenny, Mark, Carley, Glenn and most everyone else constantly risked their lives to get supplies and other things people needed? The same person who flipped out and killed someone after a "traitor" stole supplies? How'd you think she'd react if she found out Clementine was secretly feeding a stalker over the radio information about the group?

    I don't know when the R.V. stealing scene went down for you, but for me it was the very first thing that happened on my first playthrough. The second I got out at the train stop I went right back in the R.V. because I wanted to talk to Lilly, see if there was anything I could do. She refuses to talk, and the second I go up front and off-handily take a pencil, she frees herself, shoves Lee's ass out of the R.V. after I said she could leave sans the R.V. and takes the only shelter or transportation that I knew the group had.

    And for what? Why? It wasn't fear of death, Lee prevented just that by not leaving her on the side of the road. It's because the group will no longer humor her as leader and may expect her to put herself at risk, and she wouldn't have any of that. She ditches everyone, just to save herself, even if you've never once given her a reason to distrust you. As much as Kenny pisses me off nothing was as shameful as that. Hell, provided you hadn't deliberately gone out of your way to be an asshole to Kenny he'll tell you he'll be waiting for you to get back with Clem even when he doesn't come with you to get her. That's sadly more than Lilly was going to do for Lee no matter what he did for her.

    And again, nothing you do changes this about Lilly, unlike Kenny, who if you honor is stupid requests, he refuses to let you go alone! From a purely gameplay standpoint Lilly is irredeemable. There is no option to make her see reason there is no way to talk her out of abandoning everyone. Those are her best case scenarios!

    And this has nothing to do with her originally being a character in the comics. Telltale could have contrived things anyway they liked, they could have made it where Kenny leaves Lilly at the hotel, or Lee could reason with Lilly and Kenny leaves Lilly with the R.V. when the train is up and working. They could have put that option in there to show you Lilly really wasn't a bad person at heart, and they didn't, and I think that was deliberate. They wanted to lead people on to make them think they could help Lilly and in the end the you really can't. Lilly doesn't want anyone's help, she doesn't want anyone period really, and that's who she is.

    And that makes for some exceptional story telling, but I still hate her ass.

    This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.

    I'm not the first nor will I be the last person to debate's Lilly's character on this thread and I'm not posting here to deliberately spite people who like Lilly. But if you're going to say things like "I could never understand this board and their intense hatred towards Lilly...", you should expect a response.

    I do have a question for you though. How many times have you played the Walking Dead Game from start to finish and how often do you mix up your choices? Because despite what you may think, I didn't immediately hate Lilly on my first playthrough and rush here to celebrate it. Even after what she had done I pitied Lilly, I felt sorry for her. I'd say I used to feel the way you seem to now.

    But every time I replayed the game I noticed more and more things about Lilly I didn't catch or didn't pay attention to on my first playthrough. And after a while I resented her instead of pitying her, and somewhere during repeat playthroughs that resentment turned to hatred. Her character has a lot of depth, this myriad of opinions on Lilly is a testament how well written she was.

    But my discovery wasn't there was this well meaning person under Lilly's behavior, it was a spiteful coward hiding the exterior of a self-proclaimed survivalist. A scared girl pretending to be a tough bitch just like Carley said. And her only answer to being afraid was to hurt others. That's just my opinion though.

  • @Mornai said: You're right on the first part, though it's easy to miss because she only says it if you side with her, all over dialogue choices she never says such a thing.

    The second part, however is an outright lie. Lilly's second line in the episode and first to Lee is chewing him out for bringing new people to the inn. There aren't many different ways that can be interpreted.

    Edit: apologies for making a double post, i should've edited my original...



    Telling him that they shouldn't be bringing new people to the inn in the first place /= saying they should immediately be kicked out - the very fact she says otherwise demonstrates as much.

    And even then, not being welcoming to strangers is pretty damn prudent.

    I've said it before, but scoreboard: under Lilly's leadership the group survived basically intact for three months; following Kenny's plan gets damn near the entire group killed within a week. Kenny could be the kindest, warmest soul on the planet and it wouldn't matter - following his lead demonstrably gets you killed.

  • @GREYxDUZxKRUSH said: Lily's Leadership is questioned from the moment you meet her. First by Carly/Glen over saving Duck. In the same scene Larry tells her shut up. Follow by Lee saying she cannot control her people. Then Kenny calling her a crazy lady. And this is what you call leadership?Cannot lead if no ones following. Lily's leadership what leadership? Ken hands out orders in the drug store giving everyone jobs. Lee gets the pills. Lee/Carly/Doug/Clem hold down the store so everyone can get out. While Clem is helping save everyone in the store where is Lily's leadship then. She is nowhere to be found Ken stopped Larry from killing Lee. Orginally it is Kens idea to stay at the motor inn. What does Lily do on the farm? Nothing no leadership there either. Kenny's idea to take the food from the car. Kenny states they have to leave because of bandits coming over the wall. Which they do. Ken's RV saves the day. After all that she kills Carly/Doug in cold blood. Snitches on you to justify her actions. Then abandons everyone. Saying the statement Lily's leadership kept them alive is a JOKE.



    This.

  • @GREYxDUZxKRUSH said: This.



    I've covered this before too; leadership isn't some magical statistic where if it's high enough people magically fall in line. If somebody's dead set on doing their own thing, they're going to.

    If I were to disobey an order from my C.O. when I was in the service, who do you think is held at fault? Me, or my C.O.? Hint, there's a charge for disobeying orders; failure to subjugate people with the power of your mind? Not so much.

    And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.

  • @Rommel49 said: And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.



    Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.

    Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
    Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
    Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.

    Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.

  • @Rommel49 said: I've covered this before too; leadership isn't some magical statistic where if it's high enough people magically fall in line. If somebody's dead set on doing their own thing, they're going to.

    If I were to disobey an order from my C.O. when I was in the service, who do you think is held at fault? Me, or my C.O.? Hint, there's a charge for disobeying orders; failure to subjugate people with the power of your mind? Not so much.

    And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.



    This is not the service. Their civies. Lily is not a C.O. And the group is not one person Lee/Ken/Carly/Doug/Kat/ and even Larry disagree on how she TRIES to run things. In three months she lead them into a bandit attack.Loss of food weapons and shelter. Murder of Doug or Carly. Then abandons children in the street with nothing. The group has to get on the train because of Lily stealing the RV. Kenny worked with what Lily left which is nothing. A good leader stays through the good and bad. Kenny stayed to the end saving members lives at the possibility of his own demise. Were Lily does the opposite. In three months Lily put the group on the fast track to death.

  • @Rommel49 said: Telling him that they shouldn't be bringing new people to the inn in the first place /= saying they should immediately be kicked out - the very fact she says otherwise demonstrates as much.

    And even then, not being welcoming to strangers is pretty damn prudent.

    I've said it before, but scoreboard: under Lilly's leadership the group survived basically intact for three months; following Kenny's plan gets damn near the entire group killed within a week. Kenny could be the kindest, warmest soul on the planet and it wouldn't matter - following his lead demonstrably gets you killed.



    I'd say Lilly would have gotten them killed sooner. Who knows who else she would have killed? And Kenny wasn't even leader, it was basically lee. Kenny gave orders, but lee was usually the one who made all the tough decisions. That and the fact that even if you call Kenny leader, the only reason they aren't on a boat cruising right now is because they stole from the station wagon. However, if they hadnt stolen from the station wagon, like Lilly AT FIRST didnt want, they most likely would have all died. That and the fact that Lilly left the group with few supplies, ammo and the sort, and no free-moving vehicle for quick travel, they really didnt have much to work on. All the food, meds, and weapons were left at the motel during the raid. What REALLY could Kenny do? Scavenge for supplies? They had a horde coming after them! Flee Savannah? How, on foot, with no ammunition, or supplies at all? Where the hell would they go? It was hard enough for them to get around Savannah, not along OUT.

    I don't mean to defend Kenny; he was a shitty leader. But Lilly was no better, I'd say worse. If it had been up to her, everyone would be dead at that motel; the place she didnt want to leave. That, or dead from starvation.

  • @Mornai said: Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.

    Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
    Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
    Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.

    Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.



    I'd say Brie's and Ben's deaths were Ben's fault; there was nothing Kenny could do. By the time he realized he was a threat, Brie was eaten into. Ben would have died whether he was left, dropped, or in the alleyway. That, and Kenny's "death" was chained to his family's deaths, which was under Lilly's leadership.

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