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Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)

posted by YamiRaziel on - last edited - Viewed by 7.9K users

This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk

I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.

She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.

In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.


It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.

I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.

So, am I the only one? :D Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P

695 Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • @Mornai said: Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.

    Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
    Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
    Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.

    Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.

    There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).

    The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.

    @Mornai said: This is not the service. Their civies. Lily is not a C.O. And the group is not one person Lee/Ken/Carly/Doug/Kat/ and even Larry disagree on how she TRIES to run things. In three months she lead them into a bandit attack.Loss of food weapons and shelter. Murder of Doug or Carly. Then abandons children in the street with nothing. The group has to get on the train because of Lily stealing the RV. Kenny worked with what Lily left which is nothing. A good leader stays through the good and bad. Kenny stayed to the end saving members lives at the possibility of his own demise. Were Lily does the opposite. In three months Lily put the group on the fast track to death.

    Actually, the group has to get on the train because it's blocking the road. :p Kenny decides to use the train (and incidentally, attract the herd which follows them into Savannah) even when the RV's still available.

    And it still doesn't deal with the point; Kenny's plan (with all of its glaring problems) gets pretty much the entire group killed within a week. It's that simple. He's quantifiably worse than the alternative.

  • @Rommel49 said: There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).

    The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.

    Actually, the group has to get on the train because it's blocking the road. :p Kenny decides to use the train (and incidentally, attract the herd which follows them into Savannah) even when the RV's still available.

    And it still doesn't deal with the point; Kenny's plan (with all of its glaring problems) gets pretty much the entire group killed within a week. It's that simple. He's quantifiably worse than the alternative.


    It is Kenny's RV that saves EVERYONE from Lily's horrible plan against
    the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.

  • @GREYxDUZxKRUSH said: It is Kenny's RV that saves EVERYONE from Lily's horrible plan against
    the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.

    Kenny wanted to look for a boat earlier... and? When he gets his way, damn near the entire group ends up within days as a result. Under Lilly, they survived for over three months. No amount of quibbling changes that fact.

    There's no reason to assume it would've gone better if they left earlier either, because the problems the group ran into were fundamental problems with Kenny's plan. There still wouldn't have been any boats to find at the docks, and you'd realistically run into far more walkers as you neared the coast than elsewhere (since coastal regions account for the majority of the population).

  • The Stranger was a fundamental problem? The fuck? That dude had the group's number since they stole from that car. And yeah, you can't say it would have been easier under Kenny's leadership, but Lilly didn't have to deal with kenny's shit. That and the fact that if Lilly had been leading the whole show, they'd all be dead at the inn. Also, Kenny had no resources BECAUSE of Lilly and her poor leadership. How many guns did they have? Food? Water? NONE, because Lilly had been on watch that fucked them all over. Lilly set the others to fail, it wasn't Kenny's fault that he had NOTHING to work with. Right when Lilly lost leadership was when the group was in it's most dire straints. At the end of the game "You met them on your worst day thus far" with Christa and Omid. That day was caused by Lilly, not Kenny. Kenny had to pull through with Lee's help and keep the group alive, even with his entire family gone, his WHOLE REASON for living and wanting a boat in the first place. Lilly was the one who fucked up, and they all would have died under her leadership anyway. I'd rather be under Kenny or Lee's leadership, and probably theirs over Rick's too. But that is my opinion

  • @Rommel49 said: There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).

    The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.

    If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.

  • @Mornai said: If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.

    I agree, man of the decisions made were by Kenny's choosing. Lilly wanted the group to go to the Dairy, and if it had not been for Kenny and Lee snooping around, they all would have died in that meat locker, or something even worse... Also, he leads the group while Lilly cares for her father in episode 1, and leads the group while Lilly flees with her father. Lilly was leader when it didn't matter. Kenny usually had to make the tough choices, if not then Lee.

  • @GREYxDUZxKRUSH said: It is Kenny's RV that saves EVERYONE from Lily's horrible plan against
    the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.

    I have to disagree. That firefight was actually beginning to favor team Lilly. Carley had the left flank covered and Lee had the right. When Kenny did get the RV running I only saw a few walkers left and we could have held.

    If we had used the RV to plug the hole in the barricade, retreated back to our rooms and stayed quiet....maybe it would have worked. I still think Lilly's plan was better. It seemed like a good idea to me to stay where there is water and shelter at least for the winter as planned. Lilly did agree that eventually we would have to leave the motel.

  • @Mornai said: If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.

    Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.

    So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.

    @Mornai said: The Stranger was a fundamental problem? The fuck? That dude had the group's number since they stole from that car. And yeah, you can't say it would have been easier under Kenny's leadership, but Lilly didn't have to deal with kenny's shit. That and the fact that if Lilly had been leading the whole show, they'd all be dead at the inn. Also, Kenny had no resources BECAUSE of Lilly and her poor leadership. How many guns did they have? Food? Water? NONE, because Lilly had been on watch that fucked them all over. Lilly set the others to fail, it wasn't Kenny's fault that he had NOTHING to work with. Right when Lilly lost leadership was when the group was in it's most dire straints. At the end of the game "You met them on your worst day thus far" with Christa and Omid. That day was caused by Lilly, not Kenny. Kenny had to pull through with Lee's help and keep the group alive, even with his entire family gone, his WHOLE REASON for living and wanting a boat in the first place. Lilly was the one who fucked up, and they all would have died under her leadership anyway. I'd rather be under Kenny or Lee's leadership, and probably theirs over Rick's too. But that is my opinion

    The Stranger didn't kill anybody; the walkers did. Which incidentally is a fundamental problem with the boat plan; the coast is going to have the highest population of undead people. It wasn't that hard to figure out, since the coast had the highest population density of previously living people.

    Common sense, coastal regions in the U.S. account for about 20% of the landmass, but over half the total population of the country.

    Simply put, going to the coast as a way to avoid walkers was pants on head stupid, and I said as much in the "Fuck Kenny" thread last Summer for the same reason (among others). The group didn't die from dehydration, or starvation, or infection. Lack of supplies was irrelevant, Kenny's plan got them killed well before then. They died because Kenny stupidly thought going to a formerly densely populated coastal region to avoid dead people was a good idea.

    And if you can claim Kenny isn't responsible for what Ben did while following his plan (getting Brie and/or himself killed); there's no reason that doesn't apply to Duck/Katjaa.

    Fact remains, Kenny's quantifiably far worse; between the two the average life expectancy for a group member was several times longer under Lilly's leadership than Kenny's.

  • @Rommel49 said: Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.

    So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.

    The Stranger didn't kill anybody; the walkers did. Which incidentally is a fundamental problem with the boat plan; the coast is going to have the highest population of undead people. It wasn't that hard to figure out, since the coast had the highest population density of previously living people.

    Common sense, coastal regions in the U.S. account for about 20% of the landmass, but over half the total population of the country.

    Simply put, going to the coast as a way to avoid walkers was pants on head stupid, and I said as much in the "Fuck Kenny" thread last Summer for the same reason (among others). The group didn't die from dehydration, or starvation, or infection. Lack of supplies was irrelevant, Kenny's plan got them killed well before then. They died because Kenny stupidly thought going to a formerly densely populated coastal region to avoid dead people was a good idea.

    And if you can claim Kenny isn't responsible for what Ben did while following his plan (getting Brie and/or himself killed); there's no reason that doesn't apply to Duck/Katjaa.

    Fact remains, Kenny's quantifiably far worse; between the two the average life expectancy for a group member was several times longer under Lilly's leadership than Kenny's.

    Because Lilly happened to get damn lucky? And no, under Lilly's leadership they lost Carley and Doug, Larry, and Mark. Those four were some of the strongest of the group, and without them, the entire group collapsed. With Lilly's reign, the group had shelter, decent amount of supplies, good stock of weapons, and they still got fucked over.

    Kenny had little to work off of, a group barely holding on, trusts were broken, Kenny was a mental and emotional mess, Ben was absolutely useless due to his guilt, and Katjaa and Duck were just done; Duck was bitten and there was no way to stop Katjaa from killing herself, if you think of one let me know, but she had a gin in her hands, nobody saw it coming(as she was usually full of hope and thought logically), and just a kind person, so those of the group probably assumed she'd speak about it if she felt she couldn't go on(that's how I felt). Upon leaving the motor inn, which I still blame Lilly who had a kid on watch and even though she didn't seem to be doing much outside of keeping everyone on schedule, and I cannot believe someone like BEN could sneak up on her and steal supplies from under her nose, and after she realized it didn't hide them or lock them up somewhere, they had little to no food and water, extremely limited on weaponry, and low on other essential supplies like medications. The situation with Ben was her problem, and how she handled it was wrong(but my opinion).

    The group was a wreak by that point, and with three new members added to a loss of four in one day? With no way of keeping them needless? Not even knowing if they could be trusted? AND a traitor? No food, no water, no meds, barely anything as firearms were concerned, no free-moving vehicles, and only able to go where the tracks could lead them. They couldn't go around the train, and so had to abandon the RV, which was only going to get them so far anyway. So just what the hell could they do? The train didn't exactly have a 'reverse' xD. And the boat idea wouldn't have been too bad if they had the supplies. No, it wasn't GREAT, but hell, it was better than waiting to die in a motor inn where they were stuck between bandits and a hard place.

    I do not count Brie as Kenny's fault for three reasons.

    1.) Ben took out the hatchet; ya know, the liability brought in during Lilly's leadership? What happened to that training schedule? Ben seemed pretty useless with guns, melees, pretty much anything he put his hands on. That and the fact that if Lilly had actually been watching out as a leader should, then maybe Ben's fuckup could have turned into something useful. She didn't have to threaten the damn kid. Had she interrogated calmly(for it was obvious he was the culprit), they could have figured everything out and snuck out(or at least prepared for attacks, cuz' I'm sure Lilly wouldn't want to leave her little cubby hole).

    2.) Brie wasn't exactly defenseless, and she let her guard down for the walkers to break through, because she was more concerned of voting than the dead behind the door she was holding shut.

    3.)Brie wasn't part of Kenny's/Lee's group, but Vernon's. We never counted Andy/Danny/Brenda on Lilly's list, or Irene(defenseless girl you could shoot), or Jolene(girl who stole Clem's hat), or the bandits, so why count Brie? Why not count Molly if you shoot her on accident? Because they didn't matter. They weren't "members" of the group. And if you count Molly, she could be alive.

    I also don't count as that, because you could also blame yourself/Lee and Christa for the deaths, for they were leaders more than Kenny in episode 4 and 5. Only if you didn't react or said the wrong things did Christa or Kenny take over(except for certain occasions like the attic).

    I just feel Lilly as more responsible, yes I'd give Kenny a share of the blame, but Lilly gave Kenny a barely lit torch that he had to keep going, and it isn't out; people did survive, maybe even him. Lee even. Vernon. Molly. Who really knows(besides Telltale)? I don't mean to point fingers, but Lilly didn't give Kenny and the others much to work on, so I find your points kind of biased.

    An example: How much trouble we are in today that our previous presidents caused(if live in U.S.) that recent presidents have tried to correct? It isn't easy, and so far, only little progress has been made, and every time a breakthrough is seen, it goes downhill. So Kenny had little chance of preserving the group that was so broken. The group only survived because with Lilly(until it all got fucked up), they had walls to protect them and shelter.

    So yeah, they survived with Lilly longer, but they had Kenny there too, who made quite a few of the decisions. And I'd rather have Lee or Kenny as a leader than Lilly, although Kenny wasn't much better with his sorrow and grief.

  • @Rommel49 said: Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.

    So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.

    Again, you do not know who was the leader for the three months. After the siege is over Lilly showed no signs of taking back the reigns at the motor inn at the end of episode 3. For all we know she could have started the training schedules and rations two days before the start of episode 2. She's in charge of the weapons training and rations, that doesn't automatically make her leader of every aspect of the group. Hell, Lee has more power than her when he makes the decision to go to the St. Johns farm, which Lilly obviously disagrees with initially.

    Even with her leading for three months, the group's deaths were evenly split between Kenny and Lilly(and breaking them down individually result in more deaths for Lilly), not piled onto Kenny alone, so no one comes out on top. Your scoreboard is rigged.

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