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The "whatever's on your mind" thread

posted by GuruGuru214 on - last edited - Viewed by 183.7K users

One of the things that's great about this forum is its randomness. Well, this is the epitome of it: a thread for whatever random thought happens to be passing through your mind.

For example, I've just been struck by the most random craving for Taco Bell nachos.

38.4K Comments - Linear Discussion: Classic Style
  • @thestalkinghead said: "retro doesn't always mean good" at the top of that review should be something all game makers should remember, i dont care what you liked as a kid most of us have moved on, in fact "retro usually isn't good" would be better

    Sorry but from my understanding retro means "I get to play the game" instead of the modern "I only get to watch the game and choose a bit of dialogue".
    I'd like some retro gaming experiences, please.

  • @der_ketzer said: Sorry but from my understanding retro means "I get to play the game" instead of the modern "I only get to watch the game and choose a bit of dialogue".
    I'd like some retro gaming experiences, please.

    oh har har, i think you misunderstand what retro means, retro means the total lack of innovation or imagination that totally relies on nostalgia from a time where you didn't know better, but you really should now

    and please how is a few extra clicks of the mouse on open then clicking on door playing a game any more than scrolling your mouse to the open door icon.

    as a point and click adventure game fan you really have very little to stand on when saying a game has no gameplay.

    and game you don't like that much is popular, but the games you like aren't, GET OVER IT

  • That's a great summary of adventure game interfaces! One other thing to think about is the other side: the developers of the game.

    A good text adventure has a huge vocabulary. In Zork II, you can "RAPE PRINCESS". Granted, you don't live very long if you attempt it, but the option is there. If you're the developer, and you support the verb "RAPE", you now have to figure out what happens if the user tries it with everything else in the game. (Can you rape the wizard? Can you rape a grue? Can you rape the brass lamp?)

    The more you limit the verbs, the less you have to worry about stuff like this. If there's a graphical adventure that uses the word "RAPE" often enough to support it on the interface, I haven't played it. Simplifying the verbs means fewer interactions to worry about, which means you can get the game out faster with fewer bugs. And fewer letters from angry parents who find out you can rape things in the game.

  • @thestalkinghead said: Rather Dashing gave a good breakdown of the pointlessness of clicking on words then the interaction


    I didn't mean to say it was pointless, or even universally a bad idea in a modern context. All I said was that it was a problem which requires justification.

    @thestalkinghead said: That's a great summary of adventure game interfaces! One other thing to think about is the other side: the developers of the game.


    The true other side is for freedom of use. The problem most adventures have is that they have what seems like a larger toolset in front of them, but as the Venn Diagram shows they tend to use 2-3 verbs in roughly the same capacity.

    What's the solution? THAT isn't something I actually explicitly meant to lay out. I just meant to imply that modern games have TENDED toward the solution of realizing that their design used only a handful of verbs and that binding the interface to the mouse cursor caused performing actions to be simpler to execute without actually affecting complexity. The OTHER way to go, of course, would be to try and really utilize a bank or parser interface in a way that embraced the greater degree of complexity. There ARE things that can be done only with a parser or a bank, but if you're not doing them then there really is nothing justifying the use of that interface.

  • @Secret Fawful said: Finally, someone extremely helpful, unlike CHYRON.

    You're welcome.

    Glad to be there to help... or rather not be there. Let me know the next time you need someone to yell at for no reason.

  • @Chyron8472 said: Let me know the next time you need someone to yell at for no reason.

    My nets down you jerk! :p

  • @thestalkinghead said: oh har har, i think you misunderstand what retro means, retro means the total lack of innovation or imagination that totally relies on nostalgia from a time where you didn't know better, but you really should now

    and please how is a few extra clicks of the mouse on open then clicking on door playing a game any more than scrolling your mouse to the open door icon.

    as a point and click adventure game fan you really have very little to stand on when saying a game has no gameplay.

    and game you don't like that much is popular, but the games you like aren't, GET OVER IT

    To me retro means low resolution, low color games that follow an 8 or 16 bit scheme and an older type of gameplay like the 90s jrpgs or the SCUMM adventures. Innovation is fine, but what if a game doesn't want to innovate? Does EVERY game have to innovate?

  • @thestalkinghead said: oh har har, i think you misunderstand what retro means, retro means the total lack of innovation or imagination that totally relies on nostalgia from a time where you didn't know better, but you really should now

    and please how is a few extra clicks of the mouse on open then clicking on door playing a game any more than scrolling your mouse to the open door icon.

    as a point and click adventure game fan you really have very little to stand on when saying a game has no gameplay.

    and game you don't like that much is popular, but the games you like aren't, GET OVER IT

    ...
    ...

    If you ask me, a lot of so called "retro" games are far more enjoyable than modern counterparts.

    Sometimes modern games railroad you too much. There is no real game there, at least nothing more than simply child's play.
    Too much context sensitive action dumbs down the game a lot.

    God of War for instance is terrible for this.
    Quick time events, button mashing, and dumb puzzles ruin a pretty interesting story at times.
    And many enemies lack any interesting patterns and just sponge hits and maybe occasionally react if they are slightly tougher ones.

    OK so let's battle it against a retro classic: Castlevania

    Its simpler, mechanics-wise, but in many ways its a smarter experience.

    All the enemies have unique patterns that require careful timing or strategy to kill, and each weapon and item you find has some kind of use to it,
    And it rewards you immediately for exploring with something you really need,

    I'd rather have one bit of Chicken over a part of health anytime because that's immediately helpful and rewarding and fit for purpose.
    Arguably in GoW, that sort of power up doesn't really have much use in the long run because the game scales up and there is health n shit everywhere anyway so it doesn't feel so valuable.

    Games like Dark Souls and Monster Hunter clearly borrow from more classical design and in many ways much better games.

    Monster Hunter is a bit grindy, but what makes it so rewarding is that often enough the items*have*both immediate and long-term uses, and that gives the game this level of strategic planning. Resource management.
    And you actually need almost everything at some point, because the monsters actually get more diverse overtime.
    Simple patterns become more complicated patterns.
    Hell I fought a monster that can summon other boss monsters nearby,

    So how do you deal with that?

    Well...

    A. Use a dung him to get rid of that monster for now,
    B. Try to fight both
    C. Run away and wait for either monster to move to a different area.

    D. Already be prepared with the right abilities to see them coming
    E. Learn the monsters patferns /weaknesses and exploit them. In this case attack just before it makes the call to counter or use a specific item to stun it (the game gives you a little hint at what that item is if you talk to people)

    And those strategies become even more intricate when you introduce more players to the mix, and the risk/reward mechanic of deciding whether to try to kill of capture that monster
    (Capturing is harder to do, but gives you better stuff normally)

    Again, Dark Souls is kind of similar, but has a heavier emphasis on skill, pattern analysis, and timing.

    Instead of being overpowered like in God of War, of having the chance to beef yourself up in Monster Hunter, in Dark Souls you are almost always UNDERPOWERED.
    Every drop of health counts. Mistakes are immediately costly.
    It throws you in the deep end. A simple enemy can easily kill you if you don't react the right way.

    You don't have a large repotoire of tools or abilities, and that's the point.you need to learn what attacks and weapons and items take out what. All the enemy attack patterns and timings.
    Whether to dodge or block. What can leave the enemy open, what can/leave you open, and not just to that enemy but the whole gang surrounding you!

    Dark Souls wouldn't exist without Kings Field, which wouldnt exist if there was no games like Elder Scrolls or Ultima.
    And I argue that we can still learn a lot from what's already there, and that's its important to play, design, and enjoy retro styled games, because it keeps the memory alive and relevant to the modern age that tries to blockbusterfy everything to appease all markets.
    And that dumbing down does absolutely nothing for the art of design in the long-run except bury originality.

  • I'd like to add that I missed out on having a Super Nintendo in the 90s, and now that I own one, I've had a lot of fun so far playing 15-20 year old games for the first time, with no influence of nostalgia.

  • @GuruGuru214 said: I'd like to add that I missed out on having a Super Nintendo in the 90s, and now that I own one, I've had a lot of fun so far playing 15-20 year old games for the first time, with no influence of nostalgia.

    Playing Super Mario World?

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