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Would you leave Lilly if she had killed Ben?

posted by Red Panda on - last edited - Viewed by 4.5K users

If, instead of Carley or Doug, Ben was killed would you leave Lilly by the road or taker her with you?

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  • I may be in the wrong on this point, but i do not find insanity a valid reason for murder.

    She wants to be the leader. If someone else tries to take charge, she always goes against them. Whatever psychological problems brought upon her from leadership is her own fault.

    You do not get your hands dirty if you abandon Lilly on the road, since she has fought against the walkers for three months, knows how they act and how to avoid them/kill them, and has had good military experience. If we left someone like Ben on the road, who is fragile, frightened, uneducated militarily and can't stand being alone, then it would be the equivalent of murder. But with Lilly, leaving her is a completely different story. She knows how to survive.

    Mentally unstable or not, she burned her seat on that RV by pulling the trigger of that pistol.

    Apologies if I'm just rehashing what was said in the mega-post a little ways above, I'm short on time here and can't read it all. :p

  • @Mornai said:
    She wants to be the leader.

    Absolutely.

    Frankly, I think the group could have challenged her leadership successfully if Lee didn't have the baggage of his past and everyone else wasn't so afraid of confrontation.

    Kenny of course challenged Lilly. Lee may have his back but he never really pushed for a leadership change. Everyone else except Larry was clearly uncomfortable with Lilly but generally avoided conflict. And I supposed most people would naturally rather avoid conflict when living in a group. This was a problem in a sense that for Lilly to step down, people needed to challenge her together.

    When you think of it, what were Lilly's credentials to be leader? IMHO, her time in the Air Force is a weak claim. As anyone with military experience can tell you, the majority of servicemen and women have limited combat training and experience. Lilly is basically a pogue with a desk job (she clearly states she did "mechanical admin stuff" in ep 1). Besides whatever limited combat training she might have got a long time ago in Basic, her skill set isn't all that different from a civilian desk jockey. In other words, she isn't all that special from the other group members. Heck, I am willing to bet Carley has more firearms experience than Lilly.

    While she may have gained useful management skills in the the Air Force, just having "military experience" doesn't automatically make one a qualified leader in a dangerous world. Officers and NCOs in combat trades have specific training courses, team culture, and experiences that prepare them for the sort of leadership Lilly was clearly unsuited for.

    Lee as a history professor would know this. Carley would too, if saved in episode 1, because her character bio states she used to be a war correspondent , which meant she would've seen the difference between fobbits and actual combat soldiers.

    So why do people tolerate Lilly as a leader? Because they are afraid of conflict. Whenever Lilly is challenged, both Lilly and Larry basically pop a few blood vessels, cause a massive scene, and stress everyone out. In a sense, Lilly's claim to leadership is maintained by her and Larry's ability to intimidate others into avoiding conflict.

    If Lee wasn't afraid of his past, he could've spoke out a lot strongly against Lilly alongside Kenny and that might have perhaps rallied the others to ask Lilly to step down.

    Finally, I am not saying Lilly couldn't be useful. But rather, she doesn't have strong credentials to be a leader, and her leadership seemed to be maintained by others timidity towards her and Larry's hotheadedness. I'm not saying one necessarily need to be a veteran to be a leader. Other qualities make a good leader, but Lilly simply lacks such qualities such as Lee's tactfulness (unless you play asshole Lee).

  • @double_u said: Absolutely.

    Frankly, I think the group could have challenged her leadership successfully if Lee didn't have the baggage of his past and everyone else wasn't so afraid of confrontation.

    Kenny of course challenged Lilly. Lee may have his back but he never really pushed for a leadership change. Everyone else except Larry was clearly uncomfortable with Lilly but generally avoided conflict. And I supposed most people would naturally rather avoid conflict when living in a group. This was a problem in a sense that for Lilly to step down, people needed to challenge her together.

    When you think of it, what were Lilly's credentials to be leader? IMHO, her time in the Air Force is a weak claim. As anyone with military experience can tell you, the majority of servicemen and women have limited combat training and experience. Lilly is basically a pogue with a desk job (she clearly states she did "mechanical admin stuff" in ep 1). Besides whatever limited combat training she might have got a long time ago in Basic, her skill set isn't all that different from a civilian desk jockey. In other words, she isn't all that special from the other group members. Heck, I am willing to bet Carley has more firearms experience than Lilly.

    While she may have gained useful management skills in the the Air Force, just having "military experience" doesn't automatically make one a qualified leader in a dangerous world. Officers and NCOs in combat trades have specific training courses, team culture, and experiences that prepare them for the sort of leadership Lilly was clearly unsuited for.

    Lee as a history professor would know this. Carley would too, if saved in episode 1, because her character bio states she used to be a war correspondent , which meant she would've seen the difference between fobbits and actual combat soldiers.

    So why do people tolerate Lilly as a leader? Because they are afraid of conflict. Whenever Lilly is challenged, both Lilly and Larry basically pop a few blood vessels, cause a massive scene, and stress everyone out. In a sense, Lilly's claim to leadership is maintained by her and Larry's ability to intimidate others into avoiding conflict.

    If Lee wasn't afraid of his past, he could've spoke out a lot strongly against Lilly alongside Kenny and that might have perhaps rallied the others to ask Lilly to step down.

    Finally, I am not saying Lilly couldn't be useful. But rather, she doesn't have strong credentials to be a leader, and her leadership seemed to be maintained by others timidity towards her and Larry's hotheadedness. I'm not saying one necessarily need to be a veteran to be a leader. Other qualities make a good leader, but Lilly simply lacks such qualities such as Lee's tactfulness (unless you play asshole Lee).

    Lol, but asshole Lee is fun! "Do I get a vote?" "NO" LMAO.

    Anyway, Lee and co. tried to get her to step down from leadership many times, but Lilly never wants to deal with it. You can't become leader if the leader won't step down from power, and she wouldn't even listen to it. "I just want a week of peace... of NOT hearing it!" The only way I could see to make her step down would be forcefully, with a gun to her forehead. That wouldn't end well, she has thought about killing Lee before, and that definitely means Kenny, and obviously she wanted Carley dead too. So... I don't see a way to remove her from her dictatorship that wouldn't end with a bullet through her skull, and the group wouldn't do that.

  • @Mornai said: I may be in the wrong on this point, but i do not find insanity a valid reason for murder.

    She wants to be the leader. If someone else tries to take charge, she always goes against them. Whatever psychological problems brought upon her from leadership is her own fault.

    You do not get your hands dirty if you abandon Lilly on the road, since she has fought against the walkers for three months, knows how they act and how to avoid them/kill them, and has had good military experience. If we left someone like Ben on the road, who is fragile, frightened, uneducated militarily and can't stand being alone, then it would be the equivalent of murder. But with Lilly, leaving her is a completely different story. She knows how to survive.

    Mentally unstable or not, she burned her seat on that RV by pulling the trigger of that pistol.

    Apologies if I'm just rehashing what was said in the mega-post a little ways above, I'm short on time here and can't read it all. :p

    The only other person that really seemed to want the job was Kenny, and we saw how following his plan went: the remainder of the group with the exception of Clementine end up dead, with Omid, Christa and Kenny himself potentially surviving.

    And I kinda feel the need to say that I pretty much predicted that happening way back before Episode 3 was released... I could probably track down the posts. Right down to figuring that there probably wouldn't be any useable boats at the dock, to the group running into more walkers as they neared the coast than they had anywhere else, so it's not like these were unforseeable consequences.

    Anywho... Realistically, it'd be a death sentence to just leave either one without supplies. Yeah, the odds of Lilly's survival are probably better than Ben's, but in the same way that somebody's more likely to get struck by lightning than winning the lottery. The chances are pretty damn remote in either case.

    Things like dehydration have zero fucks to give about how badass you think you are.

    That said, I still left her. With Ben being the only potential "victim"? Much harder call (for me anyway). Had I the option, I would've left him behind then and there.

  • I would have left her no matter who she shot. The mere fact she would shoot someone in the group disgusts me. She shot Carley because she just does not like her. Why? I don't know. Maybe because she's jealous of her, jealous of Carley and Lee's relationship. I personally think its because Carley does not want to be bossed around by Lilly and Carley doesn't see her as a leader. Lilly won't accept that as mentioned before when Carley calls Kenny Boss in the drugstore Lilly shows annoyance. Its also why she ainly accuses Carley instead of Ben, because she personally does not like Carley. The fact she would shoot anyone is enough for me to leave her. The fact she shot Carley out of spite makes me absolutely hate her.

  • A kill is a kill. Doesn't matter who it was, if she would just shoot someone in the head because of an argument, then she is too dangerous and unpredictable to keep with us. Well, I say that, but I didn't leave her even when she shot Carley. Don't like killing people, for whatever reason.

  • I would tell Lily to get into the RV regardless of what she did, mainly because leaving her for dead makes Lee just as bad as her. ^,^

  • Depends on the viewpoint. If you see Ben as a traitor who ruined a lot of lifes and as a not team player (being a team and not just a group helps in survival) then Lily did the right thing. No room for mistakes in a ZA. Instead, seeing him as an abandoned survivor who needed help but never got it, then Lily acted wrongly. Half the blame goes to the group for not helping him. Also killing someone doesn't help him become a better person, it helps him become either a z-meal or a walker.

  • To dee23

    Even if she killed Doug, Carly or her original target Ben, she was still good to Lee and Clementine in my play through and she had just saved the group from the bandits attack. She only ran off with the RV because she had been tied up and probably thought the group were planning to kill her or leave her somewhere any way. If she wasn't tied up she wouldn't have stole the RV she would have gone to Savannah if she was forgiven. The only person that would of been in danger would of been Ben. She was tied to keep her from killing Ben. (I seem to recall someone else wanting to kill Ben for the same reason as her. Oh yeah it was Kenny in ep4) She was cool with everybody else. If she wanted Kenny dead he would have been dead already.

    The fact that she stole the RV even if you sided with her 100% shows she never gave a damn about Lee or Clementine. The bandit attack, she took a chance with that, luckily those bandits were stupid, they could've killed the whole group after that one shot. Besides, it was her stubbornness the bandits attacked in the first place by keeping the whole group at the motel even when she knows bandits are in the area. If the group wanted her dead after what she did to Carley, they would've killed her and she knew that, this is the group that had no intention of killing the St Johns, there reaction to Lee to kicking Andy St John into the electric fence says it all.

    If she wasn't tied up, she would've tried something else, taking the RV shows that, if she had a gun, she would've killed Lee if he had tried to stop her but lucky for her, Lee was weak. Surely she should know why she had to be tied up yet she complains about it, what did she expect the group to do after she murdered a kind & useful member of the group? Rub her belly and tell her it's OK. Her taking the RV shows how selfish she is because she was leaving people who never did anything to her(excluding Kenny & possibly Lee) for dead.

    She was not only a danger to Ben, if she can kill someone as innocent as Carley, she can kill anyone including Lee, heck, she even stated that she wanted to kill him when his back was turned and Kenny's not far behind, how much more proof do you need? the thought that she can snap when someone sticks up for themselves is enough to prove that. And forgiveness is a lot to ask and there was no forgiving that, besides, she herself believes she did nothing wrong, that just shows how sick & cold blooded she is. She was not cool with everybody else, she constantly snaps and yells, she even stated she has a list of people she trusts get smaller each day when she has no reason to distrust them.

    Granted, Kenny wanted Ben dead but that's it. There's a difference between wanting someone who got your family killed dead and actually killing someone for no reason. She wanted Kenny dead but she didn't have the guts to kill anyone to their face, why do you think she sent him for a supply run even though he has a gun shot wound? but after her first victim, Kenny would most likely have been next.

  • So many leaved her behind? I really liked her, he got allot of weight on her shoulders and she pushed trough it, her dad's fucking head was crushed in front of her, and she still saved me, two times against the two brothers.

    She was a crack shot like Carley, she was a huge asset to the team. I hate that she had to run with the r/v, she was like Andrea+Michonne+Abraham = Lilly.

    Well, i just hope i found her alive in upcoming episodes.

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