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Tavia Everett?

posted by Dildor on - last edited - Viewed by 2.2K users

Maybe this has been posted before, I haven't seen it. Anyone think this is a possibility? Did Lee ever mention his wife's name?
She seems too nice to be a cheater but we didn't get to play as her for very long.

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  • I know what you mean ZacTB, I used to think the same way, she is still canon comic Lilly even if they say otherwise, I just changed my mind when I realized that meant she can come back to die.

  • @Bioshock Infinite WD said: I just changed my mind when I realized that meant she can come back to die.

    Rofl, you make a convincing argument to why she shouldn't be comic Lilly.

  • I can't, and I was happy she was comic Lilly, showing how she just got worse after killing Carley, the reason why I think she is a different person is only so that I can get revenge.

  • @BlackBoxx said: And why did you jump to this possible conclusion for Tavia? Why not Bonnie? We know nothing about her other than she had a drug problem. Stephanie? We know absolutely nothing about her, period. They have the same qualifications for being Lee's wife as Tavia.

    The reason people jump to "you're racist" is because the sentiment is only brought up about Tavia, the only black woman in the game. It isn't explicit. It isn't mean-spirited. It isn't even intentional. But it is potentially racist. To be fair, the objections raised against you are making a very large assumption that may not be the case. You never explained why you think this way about Tavia, so the mind tends to fill in the gaps. The biggest noticeable difference between her and the other women in the series is that she's black. Are people assuming that's why you feel the way you do?

    To be honest, that thought did pop up in my mind as well. I'm not exactly Mr. Perfect Sensitivity, but I do try to catch myself whenever I slip like that. If someone calls me racist, or sexist, or whatnot, I will at least try to see where they are coming from; what I did/said to get that response, then adjust my behavior (since that's all I have control over in that situation) if they have a point. After all, it is possible to mistakenly be racist. Intent is not a part of the definition. Neither is malice, though it is often seen in conjunction.

    I'm not saying you are racist. 100%. No chance you can deny it. I am also not saying you are a terrible person and should be ashamed. I don't know you well enough to make that judgment call. What I am saying is, intentionally or not, malicious or not, you either had a racist thought that slipped by your mental filters, or you didn't explain your reasoning and people jumped to conclusions. Instead of getting defensive about it, learn from it and explain yourself.

    I find you can more easily nip these things in the bud if you get used to questioning yourself. Why do you have this thought about Tavia? Do other characters meet the same qualifications? If so, then do you have the same thought about them? Why, or why not? Simple questions like that can go a long way towards not only avoiding situations like this, but also being more fair towards other people.

    You're not wrong or racist to hope that Tavia becomes a mother figure for Clementine in season 2. She's a good character from what little we've seen of her. Gentle, yet confident enough to stroll right into a camp of strangers. Well-spoken, and good at diffusing a tense situation with a weapon aimed at her. Heck, she's a pudgy black woman as a playable avatar. That's a first from what I've seen beyond games with create-a-character mechanics in place.

    Lastly, I have no means to claim you are wrong. Tavia may indeed be Lee's wife. I find it highly unlikely, but I can't deny the possibility. I apologize if hearing this is getting old, but I don't like seeing someone who means well end up not understanding where an objection comes from, especially when the objections aren't explained properly. I'm only trying to give out a little advice, as annoying as that can be when it isn't asked.

    i don't know why you American are always so obsessed with being racist. People usually link characters together based on the similarities and race is a similarity. I'm asian and the first thought i have when i saw Vince and his brother's story is that he is Glenn's brother because he is asian. I also think that Tavia is Lee's wife because she's a black woman. So what? OP and i made our assumption based on their similarities, which is their race, and also the face that black men usually marry black woman. I don't see what's so racist about it. Aren't i allowed assumpt that a black woman is Lee's wife just because he is black? Should i have picked a white woman instead?

  • @Bad_Luck_Ben said: i don't know why you American are always so obsessed with being racist. People usually link characters together based on the similarities and race is a similarity. I'm asian and the first thought i have when i saw Vince and his brother's story is that he is Glenn's brother because he is asian. I also think that Tavia is Lee's wife because she's a black woman. So what? OP and i made our assumption based on their similarities, which is their race, and also the face that black men usually marry black woman. I don't see what's so racist about it. Aren't i allowed assumpt that a black woman is Lee's wife just because he is black? Should i have picked a white woman instead?

    It's simple; we have a history of it. It's the biggest, most shameful mark on our history. Not just with slavery, but with the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, and nowadays, muslim intolerance. However, we don't like being thought of as being racist, and tend to go overboard to make sure that doesn't happen. That's the usual defense mechanism of saying "how is that racist?" without actually looking at why it might be. Cognitive dissonance and all that jazz. People are so afraid of being labeled as such that they outright reject any information that may suggest otherwise, truth be damned.

    I know this won't win me any points, but you are exhibiting some racist leanings yourself. You even admit to it. Even if you're Asian, you can still make assumptions about other Asians based on race. That is racism. As I said before, it doesn't have to be grandiose, intentional, or mean-spirited. All it is, is using a person's race and projecting qualities upon them that line up with how you perceive others of said race. Saying that black people are superior athletes is positive racism, but still racism, even if the one saying it is black.

    The odd thing is, the Vince/Glenn hypotheses are more valid since there are facts about both characters that match up. Glenn mentions a brother, and partaking in activities that would lead to him getting into some sort of trouble. Vince killed some people to help a brother in trouble. Both were in Macon. The sad part is you still went with race as your reasoning based on this post.

    Yes, you are allowed to assume that Tavia, a black woman, is married to Lee, a black man. I never said otherwise. What I did say, is that you should use something other than the race descriptor as your reasoning. Do you assume that the first Hispanic man and woman you see walking down a street are married, even if they were 5 minutes apart, and heading in perpendicular directions? They're both Hispanic, so it is plausible, right? Find some other support for the thought that Lee and Tavia were married, and then the thought becomes less racist.

    No, you should not have picked a white woman instead. You should have picked someone who gave indications that they are married, and had a falling out after having an affair that ended very badly for the other guy. From what we know of all the characters in 400 days, none of that applies. Nothing rules it out either, but lack of evidence one way is not evidence of the other.

    Like I said, "Tavia = Lee's wife" was a thought that I initially had. When I asked myself why I went there, the only thing I came up with was, "she's a black woman". I had a racist thought, and recognized it as such (remember, impulsive racism doesn't mean a person is evil or anything like that, it's what comes after that determines that). It still happens from time to time. Denying it won't fix the problem. Without any other support for the idea, I had to put it on serious hold. Sure, it's possible, but there is no proof either way, so the default position should be to withhold judgment, which you have not done.

    Sorry. No TL;DR summary comes to mind. Hopefully people don't mind reading this little essay...

  • I don't, and I know what you mean, some of my friends say stuff that could be called racist, but I know they are not, it's a culture thing I guess.

  • As if Lee Motherfucking Everett would marry a whale

  • Lee and Taia seem to have nothing in common and the voice in the dream is completely different...
    To be honest I think Kenny is more likely to be Lee's wife than Tavia...

  • @BlackBoxx said: It's simple; we have a history of it. It's the biggest, most shameful mark on our history. Not just with slavery, but with the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, and nowadays, muslim intolerance. However, we don't like being thought of as being racist, and tend to go overboard to make sure that doesn't happen. That's the usual defense mechanism of saying "how is that racist?" without actually looking at why it might be. Cognitive dissonance and all that jazz. People are so afraid of being labeled as such that they outright reject any information that may suggest otherwise, truth be damned.

    I know this won't win me any points, but you are exhibiting some racist leanings yourself. You even admit to it. Even if you're Asian, you can still make assumptions about other Asians based on race. That is racism. As I said before, it doesn't have to be grandiose, intentional, or mean-spirited. All it is, is using a person's race and projecting qualities upon them that line up with how you perceive others of said race. Saying that black people are superior athletes is positive racism, but still racism, even if the one saying it is black.

    The odd thing is, the Vince/Glenn hypotheses are more valid since there are facts about both characters that match up. Glenn mentions a brother, and partaking in activities that would lead to him getting into some sort of trouble. Vince killed some people to help a brother in trouble. Both were in Macon. The sad part is you still went with race as your reasoning based on this post.

    Yes, you are allowed to assume that Tavia, a black woman, is married to Lee, a black man. I never said otherwise. What I did say, is that you should use something other than the race descriptor as your reasoning. Do you assume that the first Hispanic man and woman you see walking down a street are married, even if they were 5 minutes apart, and heading in perpendicular directions? They're both Hispanic, so it is plausible, right? Find some other support for the thought that Lee and Tavia were married, and then the thought becomes less racist.

    No, you should not have picked a white woman instead. You should have picked someone who gave indications that they are married, and had a falling out after having an affair that ended very badly for the other guy. From what we know of all the characters in 400 days, none of that applies. Nothing rules it out either, but lack of evidence one way is not evidence of the other.

    Like I said, "Tavia = Lee's wife" was a thought that I initially had. When I asked myself why I went there, the only thing I came up with was, "she's a black woman". I had a racist thought, and recognized it as such (remember, impulsive racism doesn't mean a person is evil or anything like that, it's what comes after that determines that). It still happens from time to time. Denying it won't fix the problem. Without any other support for the idea, I had to put it on serious hold. Sure, it's possible, but there is no proof either way, so the default position should be to withhold judgment, which you have not done.

    Sorry. No TL;DR summary comes to mind. Hopefully people don't mind reading this little essay...

    the problem is that your definition of racism is wrong. Racism means :

    1. a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    2. racial prejudice or discrimination

    First, my assumption does not, in any way, express that a race is superior than other. Second, that assumption is based on a proved fact, not a prejudice. And I said it was my first assumption, that Tavis could be Lee's wife, I never said that it was my only assumption. I have other assumptions and they do not dismiss the possibility that Lee's wife is white or asian,etc. Hence it is not discrimination. It would only be racist if i say Lee's wife is a black woman while most black men marry other race women or if i say that only black woman can be Lee's wife. All in all, my statement does not fall in the definition of racism.

  • @Bad_Luck_Ben said: the problem is that your definition of racism is wrong. Racism means :

    1. a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    2. racial prejudice or discrimination

    First, my assumption does not, in any way, express that a race is superior than other. Second, that assumption is based on a proved fact, not a prejudice. And I said it was my first assumption, that Tavis could be Lee's wife, I never said that it was my only assumption. I have other assumptions and they do not dismiss the possibility that Lee's wife is white or asian,etc. Hence it is not discrimination. It would only be racist if i say Lee's wife is a black woman while most black men marry other race women or if i say that only black woman can be Lee's wife. All in all, my statement does not fall in the definition of racism.

    Actually, my definition isn't wrong. Your second definition is exactly what I was using. Do you know what discrimination is?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination?s=t

    "Treatment or consideration of... rather than individual merit". Your consideration of Tavia was influenced by her race, not anything we learned about her (as was mine at first). Therefore we used race to discriminate. When race is the source of this treatment/consideration, that makes it racism. Judgment of superiority/inferiority is certainly a sufficient quality, but not a necessary one.

    You seem to be confusing racism with is bigotry. They are actually different, though often go hand-in-hand. It is possible to be racist and tolerant. It is not possible to be a tolerant bigot. The bigot sees or hears something different from what they're used to or like, and they reject it. A racist makes assumptions, good or bad.

    It doesn't matter what the trends in reality are. Assuming that a person's race means they conform to what a majority of others of the same race do is still racism. Like I said, claiming a black person is a good athlete is still racism even if more successful athletes are black. Also, you did not say Tavia could be Lee's wife. You said you think she is. Read your first response to me. If that was a mistake, then fine. I often use the wrong words which end up changing the meaning of what I mean to say. Please let me know if you meant something else.

    If you have other assumptions, you never mentioned them, so how was I supposed to know? I suppose now would be a good time to bring them up. It would clarify this whole situation.

    Once again, I must state that my initial reaction was the same. "Who is this? Could this be Lee's wife?". I've since gone back and fixed that issue. I know how easy it can be to slip up like that, just as it's easy for your audience to mistake discrimination for intolerance. I'm not trying to say "you're a racist hick! Go gargle some battery acid!". I'm certainly not calling you a bigot in any form. It's okay to admit if you've made an honest mistake (key word: if), even to having a racist response to something. The only time it becomes a problem is when it gets ignored. That is all I meant when I replied to the OP.

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