Did I miss something? re: voodoo lady (spoilers)

[pluizig]

Okay, I'm really confused. What's up with the Voodoo Lady's motives? All through the second half of Ep4 and all of Ep5, since LeChuck accused her of being 'evil', everyone's reaction is nothing more like 'Really? The Voodoo Lady is evil. She was behind all of it all along. Who would have thought it.' And that's it!

As a player, and if I were Guybrush myself, I'd have two questions:

1. Why?
2. How?

Now, some hints are being given to answer those questions, but not much. Her diary apparently chronicles how she 'manipulated Guybrush and LeChuck all this time.' But never, ever, is it made clear what exactly it is that she did. Okay, I'm supposed to believe she's behind 'all of it'. What's 'all of it'? Big Whoop? The Cursed ring? The Ultimate Insult? All through Ep5, I was expecting this to be answered, but nothing came.

Did I miss something? Apparently, 'She's EVIL,' is supposed to be enough of a motive and explanation. Meh. Doesn't seem like good storytelling to me.

[puzzlebox]

The voodoo lady is not "evil", she's just enigmatic and her motives are not to be understood.

She could be likened to a puppeteer. A puppeteer doesn't hate his puppets - he doesn't want them to die, or to have horrible lives. His job is to make them perform the roles that have been assigned to them in a script that the puppets themselves do not have the ability to comprehend.

The voodoo lady is like the puppet master of Monkey Island. She talks about "the tides of destiny" and it seems she is supposed to make sure that destiny/fate plays out as it has been "written".

She's manipulative, sure, but not "evil".

[pluizig]

Yes, but WHY? A puppeteer is not in the same universe as his story (postmodernism aside). The Voodoo Lady is. Why does she feel compelled to 'ride the waves of destiny'? Give me some motive here! It keep the character from being one-dimensional.

[GaryCXJk]

The Voodoo Lady's intent is to make Guybrush into something, not just for her own purpose, but also for the Threepwood strain, apparently. Most likely, Guybrush isn't just some pirate, as the Voodoo Lady does seem to have a certain interest in just Guybrush. There's something bigger going on, and Guybrush needs to be prepaired for that thing.

Other than that, the Voodoo Lady also does it for her own benefits. Being the helper of the savior could bring in a truckload of cash. Or a frigate full.

[puzzlebox]

Why does she feel compelled to 'ride the waves of destiny'?

Because... it's her destiny. :p

[Katsuro]

Yes, but WHY? A puppeteer is not in the same universe as his story (postmodernism aside). The Voodoo Lady is. Why does she feel compelled to 'ride the waves of destiny'? Give me some motive here! It keep the character from being one-dimensional.

That, I think, will be the final revelation in the final Monkey Island game.
But hey... we finally do have more clues.
That the Voodoo Lady may have a greater role in all of this than we thought

[aztdaniel]

It's extremely curious. I never thought of it before. But in Monkey Island 2, doesn't the Voodoo Lady send LeChuck a crate full of voodoo snakes or something? If she was completely against LeChuck and stopping him you would think she wouldn't be aiding him.

It could be possible that this was the direction Ron Gilbert was going to take her himself. After all, we've been told Señor Gilbert played a part in how this series went.

[pluizig]

Because... it's her destiny. :p

Gah! This plot-over-character crap is the reason why I stopped watching Lost. When characters have no real reason to do what they are doing anymore, I lose all interest in them.

Or worse, not explaining anything to the audience when it would be easy, and even logical for your viewpoint characters to do so to keep things 'mysterious.'


(E.g.: Guybrush: "Hey WP, I can't get over the fact that the Voodoo Lady was accused of being 'behind it all.' D'you think I can get a look at that diary LeChuck filed into evidence? It might shed some light at things")

[Marzhin]

I'm wondering if the Voodoo Lady could actually be an avatar of a voodoo loa, for instance Ayizan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayizan). The Voodoo Lady's role and powers would fit with Ayizan's association with "priestly knowledge and mysteries, particularly those of initiation, and the natural world."

[Rather Dashing]

She apparently has some form of plan. Notice that she's dealt with at least one other fairly similar adventurer, DeCava. And notice that she now is shaping the fate of another ghost pirate-like person, Morgan. There's a certain overall goal obviously present here, but we don't know what that is yet.

[theycallmetomu]

Well, the Voodoo Lady had an Ultimate Unbreakable Five Game Contract, and while Telltale may have helped her finish her fifth game, it still doesn't release LucasArts from their contractual obligation-ergo, vis a vie, she is an entity that transcends existence and non-existence, melding the very reality in which she derives as she manipulates this etherscape of a faux carribean into a simulacrum of the final game she seeks, to finally be set free from the accursed contract that is... *contractual obligation*

[Spadge]

I personally think she's using Guybrush and everyone else, just so she could do one thing - torture LeChuck. I think she has some huge, huge score to settle with poor Chuckie, so she's using Guybrush to kill him and bring him back to life over and over again as some kind of ethernal punishment.
It's almost like the myth of Prometheus and his curse. The Voodoo Lady is Zeus, LeChuck is Prometheus and Guybrush is the eagle.

[Secret Fawful]

It's extremely curious. I never thought of it before. But in Monkey Island 2, doesn't the Voodoo Lady send LeChuck a crate full of voodoo snakes or something? If she was completely against LeChuck and stopping him you would think she wouldn't be aiding him.

It could be possible that this was the direction Ron Gilbert was going to take her himself. After all, we've been told Señor Gilbert played a part in how this series went.

Telltale did say that this was the episode that Ron helped design the most. Perhaps the Voodoo Lady plot was his own.

[Katsuro]

The question tho is why she keeps using Guybrush for that?
Is there a special connection between Guybrush and Lechuck after all so she can't use anybody else?

[bai_ganyo]

Yes, but WHY? A puppeteer is not in the same universe as his story (postmodernism aside).
No.
Haven't you watched one spy movie in your life? There are innumerable examples of puppeteers playing people (Shakespeare's Tempest for instance).
There needn't be more of a motive, than taking pleasure from manipulating people. Think of the typical intriguer role (again, to be found all over Shakespeare). Just because we are not told, what the Voodoo Lady's motive is, does not automatically mean her actions are entirely senceless. That is highly illogical.
Obviously the ending points forward toward a continuation of the MI saga.

[Philweasel]

Quite simply, not revealing someones motives is not bad storytelling IF THE STORY ISN'T OVER YET.

Everyone brushed the whole "Voodoo Lady is evil" thing under the carpet because LeChuck was killing everyone and therefore he was the current threat. He was a wonderful distraction, and I wonder if that was planned or intentional.

[Mermaid]

I think it is clear by now that the Voodoo Lady definitively has got the role of a puppeteer in the Monkey Island universe. I was actually expecting a LOT more explanation and "ultimate revealing" at the end of EP5 but ended up surprised there was actually very little clarified (then again: I might have missed one thing or another, I just finished the game and came back here. ;-)).

To be honest: I'm not sure even the creators of TOMI really know what to make of or where to lead her character yet. They left the end open - even with a STILL not really dead but at least bottled up LeChuck (if I got that one right), which, as a matter of fact, is quite symbolic, don't you think? ("Well, he really should be gone for good by now, but just in case we need him again, let's preserve him.")

What's more important: several times, different people were wondering about her actual NAME - even LeChuck doesn't know it! - and since it wasn't released in this part of Monkey Island, there sure is more to come.

But, boy, a follow-up story based on this point of departure will be a hard, HARD task...

[Demra]

I belive that the Voodoo lady has been manipulating Guybrush an LeChuck both since the very beggining and now its reveald that she has, however no reason is given. and At the end of the chapter she gets a new puppet for what ever agenda she has for them.

[pluizig]

Quite simply, not revealing someones motives is not bad storytelling IF THE STORY ISN'T OVER YET.

But the story IS over. Maybe this will not be the final product in the MI franchise, but the story of "Tales of Monkey Island" is completed, isn't it?


EDIT: Yes, maybe there will be a Season 2 of sorts, but that doesn't justify not finishing Season 1, story-wise.

[pluizig]

No.
Haven't you watched one spy movie in your life? There are innumerable examples of puppeteers playing people (Shakespeare's Tempest for instance).
There needn't be more of a motive, than taking pleasure from manipulating people. Think of the typical intriguer role (again, to be found all over Shakespeare). Just because we are not told, what the Voodoo Lady's motive is, does not automatically mean her actions are entirely senceless. That is highly illogical.
Obviously the ending points forward toward a continuation of the MI saga.

Name one spy movie where the antagonist has no reason for playing other people. From the top of my head, I can think of money, power, revenge, prejudice, honour, duty, even sadism or mental insanity as ligitimate motives within a story. The Voodoo Lady does not show signs of any of this kind of justification.

I haven't read the Tempest, but the actions of the most manipulative Shakespeare character I can think of, Iago, although not very clear, can be explained. For instance, he was bitter and angry that Cassius was promoted instead of him.

I'm not saying the Voodoo Lady's actions are senseless because the audience hasn't been presented with a reason for them, I'm saying that the reason behind her actions are an important part of the narrative and that I feel a bit cheated not knowing them -especially when characters like LeChuck and Elaine apparently do know.

[Danny]

I'm not saying the Voodoo Lady's actions are senseless because the audience hasn't been presented with a reason for them, I'm saying that the reason behind her actions are an important part of the narrative and that I feel a bit cheated not knowing them -especially when characters like LeChuck and Elaine apparently do know.

Agreed. At this point, the only thing we can guess is that she gets a kick out of "controlling" the story and never stopping it. BTW, I do like that she was given a more important role than in the previous MI games, but at the same time it makes the current story quite different from the "original" MI tale.

[Byakko]

1. Voodoo lady's motives not explained. That's fine. Except...

2. LeChuck keeps hyping about it. Never actually explains exactly what, but we find out that...

3. It's because they're being forced into some cycle of fate thing. Why? No clue. Presumbly Voodoo Lady gets a kick out of it. Or something...

4. Apparently Elaine was in on LeChuck's masterplan, or...something...at some point...

5. Which is never explained was before or AFTER she was bound up. What little 'revelation' we get, we presumed Elaine...allowed herself to be caught...in order...to help GB escape the cycle of fate? Which may explain why she was caught on his ship in the first chapter AND YET...

6. She seems honestly surprised at human LeChuck and how nice he is AND YET...

7. I don't even know what the hell was happening there in the opening chapter of Chapter 5. Presumably she has been in on his plan for quite a while, seemingly nonchalant about...I don't even know she knows what LeChuck's doing now, SERIOUSLY. She's surprised at the need for Guybrush to die. Presumably, she's assuming he's not really dead. Ahuh. Right. Whatever at this point.

8. In that case, why did you bother being upset at the end of Chapter 4 Elaine, I'll never know.

9. Unless GB being a casualty wasn't in the part of the plan to literally break the cycle of fate, which either was in the works since the beginning of the game or ONLY after the extremely helpful diaries-that-noone-has-read-in-game-as-proof turned up. And we don't know this because...

10. Elaine/writers didn't bother explaining at all at the end, which was RIPE for exposition heavy loose-tying up madness. But no, we can't get that. We get Jack getting eaten by a freaking octopus and we sail off to find Barbosa still alive!

[pluizig]

What I've been trying to say, but phrased better.

Thank you.

[Friar]

I think she had the role of a manipulator. She just helped along what always would have happened (Like Dalek Kahn in Doctor who). She was/is responsible for making sure Guybrush conveniently has enough items to defeat Lechuck, by making sure they are at the right place at the right time.

[Jazzy]

Hmm, well in ep 4 Guybrush gets whispered Morgan's last words but we don't find out what she said until the next chapter when we find out Guybrush had it wrong anyway, so maybe it's a similar thing with everyone thinking they know what the Voodoo lady is up to but don't really know including LeChuck himself? Maybe LeChuck only knew that she was controlling them and still didn't know the details himself, he just concerned himself with breaking free.

[coolsome]

I think she had the role of a manipulator. She just helped along what always would have happened (Like Dalek Kahn in Doctor who). She was/is responsible for making sure Guybrush conveniently has enough items to defeat Lechuck, by making sure they are at the right place at the right time.

now she has his hand she can use it like the master did XD

[doggans]

now she has his hand she can use it like the master did XD

http://1416andcounting.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/vlcsnap-27559.png

[stemot]

But the story IS over. Maybe this will not be the final product in the MI franchise, but the story of "Tales of Monkey Island" is completed, isn't it?


EDIT: Yes, maybe there will be a Season 2 of sorts, but that doesn't justify not finishing Season 1, story-wise.

So one series to another cannot have continuing story lines? However did Heroes and 24 cope from series to series?

[fire_and_a_rose]

The best "explanation" I can come up with is that the Voodoo Lady is to Guybrush what Q is to Picard in Star Trek: TNG. We know from his first and last TNG appearance that he's trying to prepare Picard (and the Enterprise and, really, humanity in general) to face Something, whatever that is. (The non-canon novels actually have said what that thing Picard's being prepared for is/was, but I shan't spoil it for any TNG fan that's unaware of that fact.)

Evil isn't how I think of her; immoral, perhaps, at times, but that's by our definition of the term. She's playing the same game everyone else is--but she knows more of the rules than most people do, and she even has a cheat code or two up her sleeve, and is determined for her team to win.

You might not have a clue you're ON her team, of course--she decides that, it seems, but doesn't seem to feel obliged to inform you of that fact.

[Jazzy]

I think people are trying to make the Voodoo Lady more complex than she really is, it's a Monkey Island game: she is pure evil and is planning on sucking out Guybrush's soul and feeding it to her mass's exterior! You thought that was fat around her? You poor, poor fools!

And I still hold that the monkeys are the true threat, Gabel was clearly a monkey and one of their overminds, keep watching the skies!

[coolsome]

I think people are trying to make the Voodoo Lady more complex than she really is, it's a Monkey Island game: she is pure evil and is planning on sucking out Guybrush's soul and feeding it to her mass's exterior! You thought that was fat around her? You poor, poor fools!

And I still hold that the monkeys are the true threat, Gabel was clearly a monkey and one of their overminds, keep watching the skies!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4kZptthICw

[Shale]

Remember, if the Voodoo Lady is manipulating Guybrush and LeChuck both (and she certainly seems to be), that's an arc that spans all five games so far. To have something that big tied up in a single chapter, just a few gameplay hours after it was first brought up (remember, none of this was on the radar until late in Trial) would be very underwhelming. Redefining the Voodoo Lady is a big deal that deserves a full game to develop.

Of course, if that game never comes, that's different. But at this point, with the numbers Tales seems to have generated for Telltale and LucasArts' renewed support for the franchise, I'd be surprised if we've seen the end of Guybrush Threepwood.

[Anonymous Ichorholic]

I hate to do this - and I may or may not get cyber-bashed for drawing this intertextual link... but hear me out...

I think it's kind of like Harry Potter. Guybrush is somehow "chosen". As fire_and_a_rose said, the Voodoo Lady is preparing Guybrush for something. Guybrush is strange, but he is special. He has unique abilities that allow him to rise above all adversity, despite being an underdog. And sometimes Dumbledo- I mean, the Voodoo Lady has to put him through difficult tests in order to strengthen him.

She even says to Guybrush that she orchestrated much of the La Esponja Grande plot to "protect him from himself".

The Voodoo Lady frequently says things like "my ways are my own, but I have never lied to you Guybrush, and I have always acted in your best interests". I believe the Voodoo Lady. Let's face it, she's usually right about stuff. She pretty much always knows what's going to happen. I believe that she IS telling the truth - she DOES have Guybrush's ultimate best interests at heart. But at the same time, she must put him through many tests, trials and tribulations first. He must have pain in order to gain.

I think there is something that the Voodoo Lady is working towards... something big. And I think LeChuck is cross because he is sick of being manipulated, because he just wants to get on with destroying the world. But the Voodoo Lady keeps helping Guybrush along the way...

That said, I think the Voodoo Lady is more concerned with fate and the world, than with individual people.

[Rybrush]

Well put, and that makes a whole lot of sense. I just wish we had more of an inkling of her intentions, good or bad. In this series, the Voodoo Lady turned from an important side character into a full on 'important to plot character' and that had me enthralled. Oh well... bring on season 2. Now.

[Byakko]

So one series to another cannot have continuing story lines? However did Heroes and 24 cope from series to series?

There's a difference between a continuing plotline, and a resolved plot. The ending here felt like a rush job that explains NOTHING adequately. It's more like what happened to LOST. All questions, no answers, and all the fans got fed up and now J.J.Abrams has given up on it and concentrating on Fringe.

[OzzieMonkey]

After playing Rotpg a second time, I now understand the whole Voodoo Lady thing. The voodoo lady was controlling everything, but not in an evil way. She did not bring Lechuck back all those times. Thats just rubbish that LeChuck made up as an excuse to try and kill her. She has been trying to get Guybrush to find a way to stop this perpetual cycle of LeChuck coming back, but LeChuck always finds a way to come back because someone else decides to be an idiot and accidentally bring him back. The La Esponja Grande hunt was another one of these escapades. Now, the Elaine suddenly wanting Lechuck to make her his demon bride is because she saw LeChuck's belt buckle. Remember what it did to the thief?

As far as the scene after the credits go, I can answer that too. Voodoo Lady just wanted to give Morgan a new job as ghost pirate hunter, as a reward for aiding in the destruction of Lechuck. The bottle that Morgan handed to the Voodoo Lady was Lechuck's spirit, which the Voodoo Lady would then destroy. However, everybody knows that Lechuck will somehow come back. After all, its Monkey Island.

[Philweasel]

I think Elaine figured out that LeChuck was evil at some point during LotL, and was told about the Voodoo Lady at the same time, but that the pox stalled her ability to tell Guybrush that.

After Guybrush died, LeChuck smacked Elaine around a bit and she finally agreed to marry him because... well, someone had to stop him after all. She figured she would get close to him and betray him like she's done a dozen times before. When Guybrush turned up again she revised that plan, giving Guybrush all the advice he needed to stop LeChuck himself (notice all the exposition she was giving) while playing the role well enough that LeChuck wouldn’t suspect anything.

And of course once she saw that she expected Guybrush to come back to her. He always does.

[Anonymous Ichorholic]

Now, the Elaine suddenly wanting Lechuck to make her his demon bride is because she saw LeChuck's belt buckle. Remember what it did to the thief?

I'm going to have to disagree with you slightly, there, Ozzie. I think that, while the belt buckle did play some role in Elaine's relationship with LeChuck, she was certainly aware of some of her actions.

The wry smile she flashed just before agreeing to become LeChuck's demon bride seemed to indicate a degree of cunning. This smile occurred immediately after LeChuck said that only someone demonic/godly/undead (I think) could wield the Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu. Elaine wanted to kill LeChuck, so she 'conceded' to his wedding proposal, in order to become a demon goddess. The Cutlass was too powerful to be held by a mortal, and a ghost couldn't hold it. So Elaine accepted LeChuck's proposal, but with homicidal motives, not amorous ones.

Therefore, I don't think the belt was solely responsible.

See this thread about Elaine's role:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13984

[fergusdog]

The wry smile she flashed just before agreeing to become LeChuck's demon bride seemed to indicate a degree of cunning. This smile occurred immediately after LeChuck said that only someone demonic/godly/undead (I think) could wield the Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu. Elaine wanted to kill LeChuck, so she 'conceded' to his wedding proposal, in order to become a demon goddess. The Cutlass was too powerful to be held by a mortal, and a ghost couldn't hold it. So Elaine accepted LeChuck's proposal, but with homicidal motives, not amorous ones.http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13984

I immediately latched on to this as well. The only question I have is: How could she hold the sword after the voodoo was sucked out of her? Is she still undead? Or is it a plot hole?

[fergusdog]

The bottle that Morgan handed to the Voodoo Lady was Lechuck's spirit, which the Voodoo Lady would then destroy.

Very much doubt that. That explanation is too simple. She certainly has plans for the remains. I guess we'll find out in Season 2 what those are...

[NekoIncardine]

I immediately latched on to this as well. The only question I have is: How could she hold the sword after the voodoo was sucked out of her? Is she still undead? Or is it a plot hole?

My guess is that the effects of the sword are triggered by grasping it - and since she already HAD grasped it, the voodoo just did not think to re-trigger itself.

Alternatively, and perhaps a hint more simply, the demon's bride outfit did have gloves I think. That would be an appropriately Monkey Island explanation, let's face it...

[fergusdog]

Ah, I like the demon gloves explanation. I hope they make a return in season 2!

[Jazzy]

I immediately latched on to this as well. The only question I have is: How could she hold the sword after the voodoo was sucked out of her? Is she still undead? Or is it a plot hole?

Maybe she didn't have the voodoo sucked out of her, just LeChuck's control? Maybe we'll find out that Elaine's a demon pirate still...

I mean after all, the sponge was shrunk down, so it wasn't like it was sucking up voodoo anymore when Guybrush dislodged it...

[-=[The_Razgriz_Ace]=-]

There's a difference between a continuing plotline, and a resolved plot. The ending here felt like a rush job that explains NOTHING adequately. It's more like what happened to LOST. All questions, no answers, and all the fans got fed up and now J.J.Abrams has given up on it and concentrating on Fringe.

The problem with lost was they never actually got around to resolving anything at any point during the show...Shows like 24 have left questions to be answered but did so in the next season...

Personally I was happy with having something to look forward to for the next game/s in the series...think about it...if they wrapped EVERYTHING up in total then they would have to think up a completely new idea for the next game...most drama's do it the same has telltale has done to keep a bit of interest for those people who are actually new to the series at this point...

Besides, its not like the game left everything open...Lechuck was defeated (again), Guybrush and Elaine are back together, Winslow got to do some merthingies and all the characters who you wanted to survive survived...all that is left is a plotline that may or may not develop into something greater...overall I was satisfied with the result...

[ElWaster]

What's to say that the Voodoo lady isn't a representation of 'Fate' herself. She is the controlling point that pits good (Guybrush) vs Evil (LeChuck), and is destined to do this until the end of time.

I don't think there has to be a clear motive for it. Not yet anyways, I would expect some sort of an explanation in a second series if there will be one, but not for the ending of this one. Otherwise everything would be wrapped up, there is no mystery or door left open, and that would be bad.

[bai_ganyo]

Name one spy movie where the antagonist has no reason for playing other people. From the top of my head, I can think of money, power, revenge, prejudice, honour, duty, even sadism or mental insanity as ligitimate motives within a story. The Voodoo Lady does not show signs of any of this kind of justification.

I took spy movies as an example, where there are puppeteers "in the same universe as his story", without them having to be post-modern (I curse your bones for making me write this ridiculous word), same goes for the Tempest. There are motives.

There are also intriguers without motives; I admit off the top of my head I can only think of Pook out of a Shakespearean play (leaving out his assignment with the magic potion), though I am sure there are others too. Other examples would be Monostatos from the Magic Flute or Lunete from Yvain. Anyway, that's not the point. Non of this.

You needn't have an explanation, since the story is most obviously left open. And, as stated before by someone, the Voodoo Lady needn't necessarily be evil.
The question now is: Is she a puppeteer or is she just the only person seeing everybody's strings and knowing how to pull them? or asked otherwise Is her fatalistic view of the MI story an optional one or is it really fatal?

[feverfew]

I don't think there has to be a clear motive for it. Not yet anyways, I would expect some sort of an explanation in a second series if there will be one, but not for the ending of this one. Otherwise everything would be wrapped up, there is no mystery or door left open, and that would be bad.

Explanations are not necessarily a bad thing. If I were to provide an explanation to the Voodoo Lady's agenda, I would have LeChuck and Elaine provide two, differing accounts and the Voodoo Lady, in her cryptic everyday speak, should hint that both are true, to a degree. You see, I get better kick out of the game when there are several possibilities of explaining the plot hole, not this hodgepodge we've got.

LeChuck is steamed off with her. Fine. Why?
She kept him in this 'cycle'. Anything more? No.
Elaine does not trust her. Till the end. Alright. But we're told that Elaine was a master schemer. She had this whole ring idea in mind since the beginning. So, she'd know that sooner or later, they're going to need her help. That's inconsistent.
The Voodoo Lady is cryptic as always. And honestly, she seems to be even more manipulative than before.

Good theories: there are many, but all seem possible. Bad theories: many, but mutually exclusive/inconsistent. Unfortunately, the ending went into the second option. :(

[Lena_P]

I would have been sorely disappointed if they'd given full closure to the Voodoo Lady at the end of this season. They've been slowly developing her character since they introduced her past with Coronada, and if they had ended everything neatly in the end it would have drawn away development from Morgan's character. We've really just been "introduced" to these two characters and they could concentrate on the story arc of one or the other. The writers still had LeChuck, Elaine and Guybrush's personal journeys to deal with as well, you know.

And I have a feeling that LeChuck explained some of his plan to Elaine while they were traveling the Caribbean dropping off the monkeys. Elaine knew nothing about it at Gelato, but by the time they washed up on Spinner Cay I think he'd already told her something about it. I'm wondering what part Elaine is going to play in the Voodoo Lady's future plans. She did say Elaine was something of a wild card after all ...

[pluizig]

I think the crux of the argument is that I think the Voodoo Lady's motives are an important part of THIS narrative, and not just an element of the overall Monkey Island "mythology" (I hate that word in this conext), to be developed and explained in later installments of the franchise.

I think it is a mistake to keep it ambiguous, as it lessens the impact of the accusation.

'She manipulated us all!'
- 'Ooookay. How so?'
'I'm not telling!'

It just doesn't click for me. Even -or especially- if it's explained later, in a new narrative within the same "mythology."


For me, this isn't foreshadowing. It's not a cliffhanger. It's not even an open ending or a sequel hook. I'm (more or less) fine with all of those. It's simply a half-done story.

[Shale]

I think the crux of the argument is that I think the Voodoo Lady's motives are an important part of THIS narrative, and not just an element of the overall Monkey Island "mythology" (I hate that word in this conext), to be developed and explained in later installments of the franchise.

What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?

[feverfew]

What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?

Maybe it's because she gets mentioned all the time (and her motives, too) and we're tempted all the time "oohh, they're gonna reveal it now!" and then, it always stops. And we're left even more confused.
It's cat-and-mouse game with us. I felt the same about ELaine/LeChuck "supposed" relationship. Writers wanted so hard for us to believe there was something going on.. and boom, nothing. Just a ploy to complicate the plot a bit. Tales feel very 'plot-artificial' in that way.

If I were to present this mathematically, regarding the Voodoo Lady, we've got:
80% questions
20% answers

way too imbalanced for me. I'd go for:

60% questions
40% answers

or 65% questions/35% answers if it had to be THAT cryptic :D

That's called uneven plot development. Sorry.

[pluizig]

What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?

Well for one, I think this was the primary conflict since the Pox was cleared up. And LeChuck was very much out to get her, much more than in the earlier games. As I recall, LeChuck's priorities in Tales were, in no particular order: kill Guybrush, marry Elaine, become all-powerful (by means of the sponge), and break free of the VL's cycle of manipulation. Three of these goals are the same as always. So naturally, as a player, I'm most intrigued by the only new one, especially as it's a) a bombshell, changing the context of the previous games -coming dangerously close to a retcon, but that's a different discussion- and b) introduced the most recent.

Elaine, too. Her Master Plan (tm) had two goals in mind: keep an eye on LeChuck, making sure he does not become all-powerful by means of the sponge, and breaking Guybrush free of the VL's cycle of manipulation. Notice a pattern?

So how is it a good idea to not adress this plot point? Not even explaining what this cycle of manipulation actually is? Or why it's being enforced? I can't get my head around this.



EDIT: Ninja'd by the above post.

[Lena_P]

What are you determining as "plot"? I consider the plot to be Guybrush's defeat of the Pox and LeChuck, which was resolved. At the end of the day, Guybrush is the hero and his story is the most important. The other characters have their stories as well, and not resolving all of them is what I consider good writing. It's more reflective of real life. We all have our own stories and they're interwoven with one another, but just because my story intercepts yours at this point doesn't mean it will be resolved or explained to you at the point your story ends, or ever even. The Voodoo Lady is mysterious; it's a key part to her character and always has been. If you take away her mystery, what's left, really? We learn at the last second that she's been more involved in Guybrush's life than anyone ever expected; if they had explained why and how right away that would have been really cheap.

[feverfew]

What are you determining as "plot"? I consider the plot to be Guybrush's defeat of the Pox and LeChuck, which was resolved. At the end of the day, Guybrush is the hero and his story is the most important. The other characters have their stories as well, and not resolving all of them is what I consider good writing. It's more reflective of real life. We all have our own stories and they're interwoven with one another, but just because my story intercepts yours at this point doesn't mean it will be resolved or explained to you at the point your story ends, or ever even. The Voodoo Lady is mysterious; it's a key part to her character and always has been. If you take away her mystery, what's left, really? We learn at the last second that she's been more involved in Guybrush's life than anyone ever expected; if they had explained why and how right away that would have been really cheap.

Nobody says they should explain EVERYTHING. That's uncalled for.

But they should do a better job in interweaving their stories, as you've said. My main gripe is that there is this Voodoo Lady-Elaine/LeChuck antagonism and its significance made me into believing that we'll at least get some hints about the resolution.

We've got the story of Elaine, who does not trust the VL, but had this 'master plan' with her ring. Was it planned since the beginning? Because if it was, than she would have to scheme a ridiculous amount of nigh improbable events in order to predict that Guybrush will ever get out of the Crossroads. Besides, her genuine surprise at Guybrush's death and yet, manages to convince us she knew it all along.

And then there's the VL, who's clearly playing the both sides. She and Elaine have this mutual distrust thing going on. Fine. But I simply can't imagine Guybrush not asking Elaine why didn't she trust her. Probably, I'd have hard time trusting her as well.

That's funny that in Trial, I trusted her and I was meant not to, whereas in Rise I couldn't trust her at all, and Guybrush actually did. So, I guess I'm siding with Elaine on that one. ;)

And then there's LeChuck. What did he read in that diary? Was it really incriminating the VL? He seemed to be genuinely pissed off, even in his demon form. Yet, it was not revealed.

To make it shorter, the plot has something to drive it. The plot of TMI set store in the final LeChuck/Guybrush battle, but when I played it, I felt distracted. It's like the writers were telling me:

"Alright, there's this big baddie and he's beating you, so defeat him.

Oh, yes, there's Elaine, she loves you.

She's not telling you something? Ignore it. She loves you.

She has a master plan. It's inconsistent? Ignore it. It's all Voodoo Lady's meddling.

But you need to use VL's advice to get alive again. Do not trust her? Doesn't matter. You don't have any choice. We decide what's important here.

The Voodoo Lady acts suspiciously? Take it for granted. Did she cheat you? Who cares, LeChuck is beating you!

He might have had a point? Stop it! You're not supposed to think that! Look, Elaine is rooting for you! Finish LeChuck! We'll answer all later."

...then, the final cutscene...

the end...

kinda depressing, isn't it?

[pluizig]

At the end of the day, Guybrush is the hero and his story is the most important. The other characters have their stories as well, and not resolving all of them is what I consider good writing.

Have you seen The Princess Bride? What if Inigo never found the six-fingered man that killed his father in the course of the story? Would you consider that good writing?

[Shale]

Depending on how they handled it, it certainly could be. The futility of revenge, the impossibility of finding one man in the entire world...there are themes to work with.

If there was a sequel to The Princess Bride, and that story involved Inigo finding Count Rugen, then emphatically yes. Why would you set up a multi-volume story and then tie everything off with a bow in the first installment?

[Lena_P]

Nope.
Elaine and LeChuck dislike the Voodoo Lady because she's been manipulating them this whole time and they never suspected it. Nobody likes to made a fool off, especially control freaks, which Elaine and LeChuck are grade "A" examples off. They found out that the Voodoo Lady was manipulating them, but they didn't necessarily find out why she was manipulating them. LeChuck probably didn't care; he was just pissed that anyone would dare try to control the feared pirate LeChuck! Elaine probably wanted to know why, but hadn't been able to figure it out.

And she probably gave him her ring because she already knew about the spell LeChuck had used to escape the netherworld (first thing I'd have asked him when he was apparently so chummy) and gave it to Guybrush in case of a worst case scenario. She never really did trust LeChuck after all.

And as for the Voodoo Lady, why not trust her? She was his only hope and her advice had always helped in the past.

[feverfew]

Nope.
Elaine and LeChuck dislike the Voodoo Lady because she's been manipulating them this whole time and they never suspected it. Nobody likes to made a fool off, especially control freaks, which Elaine and LeChuck are grade "A" examples off. They found out that the Voodoo Lady was manipulating them, but they didn't necessarily find out why she was manipulating them. LeChuck probably didn't care; he was just pissed that anyone would dare try to control the feared pirate LeChuck! Elaine probably wanted to know why, but hadn't been able to figure it out.

And she probably gave him her ring because she already knew about the spell LeChuck had used to escape the netherworld (first thing I'd have asked him when he was apparently so chummy) and gave it to Guybrush in case of a worst case scenario. She never really did trust LeChuck after all.

And as for the Voodoo Lady, why not trust her? She was his only hope and her advice had always helped in the past.

Alright, you do have a point here. Maybe I'm a control freak too, but I'd love to get some more exposition. ;) What you wrote sounds logical. Yet, I feel like I've been given a set-up for a next season, not a true episode.

ANd I believe that LeChuck and Elaine were discussing the Voodoo Lady on the ship before. Elaine only learned about the Voodoo Lady's supposed betrayal when under the influence of Pox, so after it was cured, she wasn't supposed to remember it (or at least, not entirely). LeChcuk and Elaine probably had a working theory of the Voodoo Lady's true intent, but after a few tempting snippets, they both shut up.

Cool, I'd never imagine Elaine could have asked LeChuck for a spell while they were placing the monkeys. That tidies it up a bit. But whew, Elaine's got some big head to scheme this all up.

This Voodoo Lady.. well, it takes me a bit to change allegiances. Guybrush's sudden love for LeChcuk/hate for the VL seemed stinted and artificial, especially if we never got to see her diary. And then, boom, in Rise she did turn out to manipulate all around her, and she sees no fault in it.

That's the moment when I sensed that her idea of "morality" may be non-existent. For all we know, she might believe that "killing-LeChuck-ad-nauseam" is THE BEST FOR HIM and GUYBRUSH/WHOLE UNIVERSE. :D All for the balance of the Force, and so on...
I'd hate to be a part of her Ying/Yang pair.
I'd gladly do something to stop her, then. Maybe burn her cards? :p

[sharper]

---

For those whom don't like to read long posts, my long story short: I feel the voodoo lady has been taken out of character in this series, her role is confusing and should have been better clarified especially at the end, and saying that she doesn't need an explanation or motive is an excuse for slack writing. She feels like a gimmick/plot device.

---

There are a couple things I can agree with throughout this topic, but many things I absolutely disagree with.

I agree that it is okay to leave a few open ends so people can ponder what future there could be for the cast of "Tales of Monkey Island". A good story doesn't have to spoon feed the audience every piece of information to get its point across (random eg. Shadow of Colossus.) Especially when it comes to characters whom are characterized by a shroud of mystery, aka voodoo lady. If we knew too much about her, she could easily be ruined. Mysterious characters are fun since they leave the users wondering where they stand on the border of good and evil, and what their motives are. However, I cannot agree with the excuses that have been made in this post for the voodoo lady's confusing and out of character role throughout the series.

From the first episode of ToMI, I picked up on the foreshadowing sinister atmosphere given to the voodoo lady. I was hoping this was a red herring as I didn't like this, at all. Some may say, so what? Shes the VOODOO lady, isn't that supposed to be sinister? To me, not really. I felt in the earlier MI games the voodoo lady was the representative of good voodoo while LeChuck was the bad. A foil if you will for LeChuck. The sinisterness given to her in ToMI suggested that her motives were no longer in the best interest of Guybrush, which counters every other incarnation of the VL from the previous games. To give the Voodoo Lady an alignment after every other game has kept her motives a secret took away her charm for me.

Throughout this post the most common response I see is that 'shes not being 'evil' persay, but she is the puppet master pulling the strings and we don't know her motives yet.' You know, I can say fair enough. The puppeteer concept fits to some degree, as guybrush does seem to listen to her without much second thought, leaving himself vulnerable. It could have been an interesting twist. However, how it has been executed in ToMI I feel it is muddy and inconsistent. I think pluizig is spot on with the reaction: (She manipulated us all!'- 'Ooookay. How so?' - 'I'm not telling!')

When trying to sort through everything that has happened in the 5 episodes, I only get more confused. The only 2 conclusions that the game tells us between ep 4 and 5 was either A) VL has manipulated both guybrush and LeChuck constantly, but are not told why or how doing this benefits VL at all. Or B) LeChuck lied about being manipulated and only Guybrush was the puppet, which again we still do not know WHY VL would do that as it still doesn't really benefit her. I could see that maybe she wanted her love Decava released, but if that was the case her role should have ended in episode 3. Motives have to be constantly fueled by the thoughts of receiving/perceiving some sort of reward, and episode 4 and 5 leave me mystified as to why manipulating Guybrush and LeChuck would suit her interests.

I can't help but think back and compare this VL to the original VL in the first 3 games. Originally she was more of a game play device to help users whom were having difficulty knowing what to do. Because of ToMI's new hint system, this aspect of VL is no longer necessary, but extraneous.
So I can understand why Tell Tales chose to develop her into an active main character instead, which I think was a good move and best executed in Episode 3. I liked the introduction of DeCava as VL's love interest and how he was an adventurer similar to Guybrush. THAT was well written plot point, as it gave a reason as to why VL has always helped Guybrush. But I feel this 'manipulation' plot-line has muddled up this character's development, rather than create more interest and mystery. Its a pretty big bombshell that just doesn't hold up with everything else we know about the character.

I'm sure I'm going to get a reply saying "But we don't know anything about her, thats the POINT. If we did know everything she would be ruined" And I can agree with that. HOWEVER, a mysterious character still has to make sense and at least give a hint as to how and why they do things. Without a single hint, as a player I feel ripped off. I don't want to spend an hour or so on a game and not find out the information I was working towards. Worse yet, when given hints that don't make sense, I tend to get frustrated. Guybrush cures the pox to only find out the one that helped him cure it manipulated the one responsible for it in the first place... Say what? These hints in the last two episodes feel weak and out of place.

Okay, since this has become much longer than expected I will try to finish up. VL's final storyline felt like a gimmick to make the story longer, and have some excuse for a cliche cliff hanger ending. Making a seemingly good character go bad can be interesting, but in real life people have reasons for turning sides that are often seen through subtlety. There was no subtlety here, no hint of explanation. I can say the same for Morgan but I wont get into that right now. Overall the ending felt disappointing to me, and I am not sure what to expect if there is a season 2... And I don't mean that in a good way.

[Lena_P]

The Pox was planned by LeChuck to get La Esponja Grande. After he found out the Voodoo Lady had been manipulating him for all those years he was determined to become more powerful than her and rule not just the Caribbean but this word and the next. He made certain that Guybrush would incorrectly spell the CC of K to spread his essence across the Caribbean, thus forcing the Voodoo Lady to send Guybrush to retrieve the sponge. The Voodoo Lady knew what he was doing but had no choice and protected Guybrush the best she could.

And in the end the Voodoo Lady got what she wanted all along ... the essence of LeChuck. It came in a jar from the spirit realm instead of being imprisoned in the cursed cutlass, but she's an adaptable kind of gal.

[Lena_P]

The Pox was planned by LeChuck to get La Esponja Grande. After he found out the Voodoo Lady had been manipulating him for all those years he was determined to become more powerful than her and rule not just the Caribbean but this word and the next. He made certain that Guybrush would incorrectly spell the CC of K to spread his essence across the Caribbean, thus forcing the Voodoo Lady to send Guybrush to retrieve the sponge. The Voodoo Lady knew what he was doing but had no choice and protected Guybrush the best she could.

And in the end the Voodoo Lady got what she wanted all along ... the essence of LeChuck. It came in a jar from the spirit realm instead of being imprisoned in the cursed cutlass, but she's an adaptable kind of gal.

[sharper]

Sorry I must have missed that in the game. Essence of LeChuck? When was this? I'm going to have to replay it.

[Rather Dashing]

Sorry I must have missed that in the game. Essence of LeChuck? When was this? I'm going to have to replay it.
It's after the credits.

[Lena_P]

When you first meet her in her hut in episode 1 she asks for the cutlass so she might "drain it" right away. Then in the final cutscene Morgan hands her a jar of liquid LeChuck, apparently as part of some deal between the two of them.

[Rybrush]

Maybe she's going to drink the Lechuck Juice and absorb his powers.

[Hayden]

Maybe she's going to drink the Lechuck Juice and absorb his powers.

Mmm... delicious!

[sharper]

Okay well then my question is why does she want the essence of Lechuck? And it wasn't mentioned here, but in another thread I saw someone claim she also got Guybrushes poxed hand... Even though guybrush had both his hands in the end of the game? (unless my memory is being foggy again, could someone clarify this for me? I should replay the ending but I really hate that final fight scene cause of the bad pc controls)

How does it benefit her? I'm left with the impression she's suddenly power thirsty, which I hate sounding like a broken record but it feels out of character for her. Unless someone is maybe manipulating her too...

Some have claimed it is so she can continue some sort of cycle of "Fate", eternally having guybrush and lechuck battle to the end... But even if she's convinced this is how things should be, how does this make her happy? She must have something better to do in life than watch two pirates quarrel endlessly. Otherwise thats a pretty empty existence if you ask me.

Someone is bound to say that this is why they'll need a season 2, and if that turns out to be the case I can only hope season 2 will blow season 1 out of the water with clarifying some of these loose ends. I don't want to play a game that will be like watching LOST where I sit there and watch each episode one after another, only to feel unsatisfied as more conflicting questions are asked while none of the original questions are answered.

[Thriftweed Fancy Pants]

^Agreed.

Also, didn't I read in that Nintendo article that a cycle was going to be BROKEN in this chapter? Which cycle was broken exactly? It can't be the Guybrush vs. LeChuck cycle, because keeping around a jar of liquid LeChuck will inevitably lead to another round of the same old conflict in my opinion.

[coolsome]

^Agreed.

Also, didn't I read in that Nintendo article that a cycle was going to be BROKEN in this chapter? Which cycle was broken exactly? It can't be the Guybrush vs. LeChuck cycle, because keeping around a jar of liquid LeChuck will inevitably lead to another round of the same old conflict in my opinion.

mabey the cycle of the Voodoo Lady helping Guybrush