Frustrating Showdown

[Phoonzang]

Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

That was artificial prolonging of gameplay at its best (or worst, as you like). Hasn't this type of bad design from the dark (Sierra)ages abolished a long time ago? What on earth is the sense of watching the same sequences of animations over and over again because you misclicked, or clicked one sec late, other than frustrating the audience? And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
You can do better than this, in all other games where I suspected a tedious "try this n that for the umpteenth tim" puzzle was coming up, there always was a knack that made it playable (and not frustrating). Please keep to that and don't resort to this cheap type of game time expansion in the future.

[Strayth]

I absolutely don't agree with you. Actually if you play in order to have "movie like sequences" or "logical sequences", only one repeats itself. (because you can use your hook on both rope and mainsail)

Then of course, if you take 3hours to complete that puzzle, yeah that repeats itself.

But then it's like picking up the same dialog lines over and over. It depends on what you want to see. I actually like to play in order to make the game more "realistic", I try not to make them repeat themselves...

I admit the last fast repeated itself a bit for the first time. But once knowing what you have to do, it's just great actually.

[Secret Fawful]

Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

That was artificial prolonging of gameplay at its best (or worst, as you like). Hasn't this type of bad design from the dark (Sierra)ages abolished a long time ago? What on earth is the sense of watching the same sequences of animations over and over again because you misclicked, or clicked one sec late, other than frustrating the audience? And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
You can do better than this, in all other games where I suspected a tedious "try this n that for the umpteenth tim" puzzle was coming up, there always was a knack that made it playable (and not frustrating). Please keep to that and don't resort to this cheap type of game time expansion in the future.

Bad design? It's no different from any other MI game showdown, once you know what to do its fast and flows easily, but if you don't, it repeats itself until you do. The only reason it might SEEM different is because you already know to use the root beer or how to make the voodoo doll, or to blow up the ice, etc.

[Rebirth]

if you ask me thatz was the BEST showdown of all MI Games!
MI1: the final fight was only picking up a bottle and use it on LeChuck.
MI2: ok the reasambeling of the Voodoo doll was nice but it was no "fight more a running away"
MI3: once again it had no tension and was solved to quick
MI4: KONKEY COMBAT!!!!!!
MI5: The Games was over right befor you confrontet LeChuck^^
ToMI: a Real Fight with Nice Puzzels and a fearsome LeChuck

[thin029]

All MI showdowns were like that, including the Monkey Kombat one, and I love them.

[Javi-Wan Kenobi]

I was frustrated at the begining, when I didn't know what to do, doing little things (just because I could do them, but without really know why I needed them), and being keelhauled over and over again...
But suddenly all the puzzle pieces got in place in my brain, with that happy catharsis when you think "so, THAT is what I was meant to do!". And from there, I did all the final showdown smooth as silk, with a great feeling of fulfillment for being capable to do it without any (external) hints. And the solution to the next puzzle, while quite obvious (you don't have THAT many things on your inventory, you don't have too many options or possible things to do) gave me the same feeling.

[Ash735]

Bad design? It's no different from any other MI game showdown, once you know what to do its fast and flows easily, but if you don't, it repeats itself until you do. The only reason it might SEEM different is because you already know to use the root beer or how to make the voodoo doll, or to blow up the ice, etc.

This, I replayed it before and the fight was fast:

- As soon as it starts, use the Hook on the Sail
- Tell Elaine to Fight LeChuck
- Grab the Keys
- Get knocked up the mast again
- Wait for LeChuck to throw you down
- Unlock the Barrels
- Use Broken Door with Barrel
- Use Hook on Rope
- Get threw down off the perch
- Tell Elaine to Light The Cannon
- Stand on Door


Done :)

[PyriteParrot]

I agree 100%. The overall episode was great, no question. But that final scene was incredibly annoying. Never having enough time to look around, having the same animation of being kicked around the ship over and over...

[Strayth]

I would just add to use your hook on the barrels before to ask Elaine to fight Lechuck. Otherwise that makes Guybrush too omniscient. Like he knew the keys in the water would open them..

Adding that makes the fight perfect and logical.

You don't have the same animations if you do what you have to do...

[BeeKay84]

And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
This one frustrated me, too. But apart from that, it was just like in the final part of "Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge", when you needed to collect all the ingredients for a Voodoo Doll, while LeChuck could appear any second to beam you into a different room. That could be frustrating, too. But suspenseful on the other hand.

[Ash735]

I would just add to use your hook on the barrels before to ask Elaine to fight Lechuck. Otherwise that makes Guybrush too omniscient. Like he knew the keys in the water would open them..

The point was though to make the fight fast, having Guybrush use the Hook on the Lock just makes him say "No Use, my Hook won't fit in this lock" adding no real point in the fight.

[PecanBlue]

I loved the last battle very much, but I agree it can get very frustrating, and it was a lot more frustrating for me in the old games too because they gave you less time to look around your surroundings. (except for the first which I always figured out what to do on the first punch and never got thrown anywhere) I think the frustration adds to it though, the only one I felt was really bad was when I kept trying to get ON the see-saw door and apparently I kept pressing the wrong key and LeChuck just threw me around the place two times before I finally got it right.

[S@bre]

This, I replayed it before and the fight was fast:

- As soon as it starts, use the Hook on the Sail
- Tell Elaine to Fight LeChuck
- Grab the Keys
- Get knocked up the mast again
- Wait for LeChuck to throw you down
- Unlock the Barrels
- Use Broken Door with Barrel
- Use Hook on Rope
- Get threw down off the perch
- Tell Elaine to Light The Cannon
- Stand on Door


Done :)

That only works when you know what you are doing, that's no good on the first-time through play, which we'll never be able to experience again. I'm going to have to agree with the original poster, having to go through the sequences again and again until you know what you're doing was irritating; I felt it detracted considerably from what should have been a climactic experience.

[Ash735]

That only works when you know what you are doing, that's no good on the first-time through play, which we'll never be able to experience again. I'm going to have to agree with the original poster, having to go through the sequences again and again until you know what you're doing was irritating; I felt it detracted considerably from what should have been a climactic experience.

But, from the post I quoted anyway, is this different from the other games? In MI1 you'd just keep getting punched around Melee Island and back to Stans Shipyard, MI2 you'd be walking round those tunnels for a long time and just keep getting sent to another part when LeChuck arrives. in MI3 you'd just be seeing the same four screens over and over and just go to the next one every time LeChuck appears.

The only problem I have with Tales is that LeChuck can take his time, but this needs to be done to equal out the time it'll take you to ask Elaine to Light The Cannon AND get on the door.

[Rebirth]

even if you dont know what you are doing it doesnt take to long:

- use hook with rope
- look at sail and hear that the Rip is direkt behind it
- get pushed down
- talk to elain an tell ehr to fight lechuck when he is in the rip
- look at canon
- get pushed up on the mast
- use hook with sail
- look at the barrels
- get under water and see the keys
- wait till you get thrown up and down the mast
- tell elaine to fight lechuck
- grap keys
- wait till you get thrown up and down the mast
- unlock the barrels
- Use Broken Door with Barrel
- Use Hook on Rope
- Get threw down off the perch
- Tell Elaine to Light The Cannon
- Stand on Door

[Masta23]

hmm I thought it was great but was kinda frustrating as I worked out what exactly I needed to do ( as with any puzzle really). One thing that baffled me though was when you had to step onto the seesaw. When Lechuck punched me from right up the top, by the sail I couldn't step onto the seesaw as Guybrush just examined it. When he punched me from the balcony I could. Which begs the question, why should it matter which position you were when Lechuck punched you down,to step onto the seesaw.
Sorry if this sounds like a silly observation but that made me think.

[der_ketzer]

It reminded me of the final in S&M 106. I really don't like time pressure in adventure games. For me this was the weakest scene in the whole season.

[doodo!]

I agree 100%. The overall episode was great, no question. But that final scene was incredibly annoying. Never having enough time to look around, having the same animation of being kicked around the ship over and over...

Yes, as much as I love it as the latest Monkey Island game I do feel the same way. It was obnoxious and your movements were so restricted. Similar to being stuck on a roller coaster in MI-3. :rolleyes:

It was obnoxious. Still it was a great game all together.

[Masta23]

well I think that this scene, if anything reminds us more of the good ol days. They had this sort of time pressure puzzle at the end of MI1,MI2 and MI3, so it would make sense to include it at the end of tales.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?


I think the puzzle itself was very good. However, I got kinda depressed by the end, poor zombie Guybrush was taking such an insane amount of beating, and just enduring, enduring. It was kinda sad after the 3rd round, really...

[Datadog]

I loved the showdown on the ship! You could really feel Guybrush's pain in this one, and re-watching some of those animations were a delight. Even the puzzle itself was plannable after I figured out the layout of the ship. Definitely one of my favorite adventure game showdowns.

[Rather Dashing]

No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the shrinking of the sponge onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

So no, I didn't think it was "cumbersome" and "frustrating" and "waaah too hard ;_;".

[S@bre]

No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

Steady on buddy, no need to get uncivil over it. You like it how it is, that's fine, but no reason to insult dissenters.

[Rubarack]

The big problem was that you needed Lechuck to attack you to progress, so rather than being tense and nerve wracking it was just a little dull and frustrating. You needed a way to get around the ship on your own. It also helps if the puzzles make some kind of sense, the finale had a very bad case of finding solutions first, problems second.

[Steverin0]

Among all the praise for the game (it was briliant, I agree on that) is there anybody who also felt taken aback by the showdown on the ship?

That was artificial prolonging of gameplay at its best (or worst, as you like). Hasn't this type of bad design from the dark (Sierra)ages abolished a long time ago? What on earth is the sense of watching the same sequences of animations over and over again because you misclicked, or clicked one sec late, other than frustrating the audience? And especially the "scene" when Guybrush stands on the balcony. Nothing to do but to wait for another punch from LeChuck. Come on.
You can do better than this, in all other games where I suspected a tedious "try this n that for the umpteenth tim" puzzle was coming up, there always was a knack that made it playable (and not frustrating). Please keep to that and don't resort to this cheap type of game time expansion in the future.

Yes it was horrible. I kept thinking to myself 'is this actually fun?' It wasn't. :(

[Rather Dashing]

Steady on buddy, no need to get uncivil over it. You like it how it is, that's fine, but no reason to insult dissenters.
I suppose not. But it's generally things like not making "frustrating gameplay" or keeping puzzles from being "illogical" that have castrated the adventure genre. Now, I do think there is such a thing as a bad puzzle, as an illogical puzzle, but this isn't one of them.

The only thing I would have done differently is have there be a way to "initiate" the LeChuck attack. Perhaps being able to yell an insult at him. Because otherwise you do end up standing around for a bit if what you need to do is on the other location.

[Yorkshiretyke]

The most frustrating part of it was when my game bugged and LeChuck decided not to hit me around anymore, forcing me to load an older save (think it went as far back as when I had just obtained the locket). Didn't happen the 2nd time fortunately.

[Rather Dashing]

The most frustrating part of it was when my game bugged and LeChuck decided not to hit me around anymore, forcing me to load an older save (think it went as far back as when I had just obtained the locket). Didn't happen the 2nd time fortunately.
The same thing happened to me, actually. I just saved at that spot, re-loaded that save, and LeChuck decided to start beating me up again.

[coolsome]

The same thing happened to me, actually. I just saved at that spot, re-loaded that save, and LeChuck decided to start beating me up again.

theres still good inside him he had second thoughs about pumling guybrush

[Secret Fawful]

No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the shrinking of the sponge onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

So no, I didn't think it was "cumbersome" and "frustrating" and "waaah too hard ;_;".

I love reading your posts sometimes.

[Rather Dashing]

I love reading your posts sometimes.
Sometimes I look back on them and feel remorse. "Should I have been that harsh? I was probably too harsh." This was one of those. I still feel pretty strongly against the idea that the final battle was anything but a couple steps from perfection though, and a far cry from archaic and frustrating.

[shovell]

I loved the ship showdown, reminded me of the fight with lechuck at the end of MI2 :)

[Syrynx]

Okay, So I am really mixed in my opinion about the final fight. It was frustrating, but not for being illogical or ill planned. It was brilliantly conceived, except for the inability to move on one's own.

Waiting around for Lechuck to beat me and throw me to the location I needed to go to was annoying. Why couldn't I just WALK to the other side of the deck, or CLIMB the ladder on the mast? By the time I figured out where everything was and what I needed to do, I had to wait around for Lechuck to finish clobbering me before I could do any of it.

TLDR:

The puzzle was great, it was logical and well constructed. Navigating the puzzle was annoying.

[Secret Fawful]

Sometimes I look back on them and feel remorse. "Should I have been that harsh? I was probably too harsh." This was one of those. I still feel pretty strongly against the idea that the final battle was anything but a couple steps from perfection though, and a far cry from archaic and frustrating.

Nah, truth hurts.

[Lena_P]

Rather Dashing, do you see now why I said you're sometimes "grumpy"? :p Don't worry, you're generally harsh but fair.
I have to say I took quite awhile to solve the last puzzle and it killed me to see Guybrush get beaten like a pinata. I actually felt my throat getting tight, and my brain started racing trying to figure out how to solve the puzzle so I wouldn't have to keep watching him suffer. I've never reacted so strongly to a video game character. Books, movies, cartoons etc. yeah, but not to a game. I think it was a pretty amazing puzzle to get that kind of reaction out of me, and to be able to sustain it through my half an hour of blind fumbling as well.

[Gryffalio]

Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the shrinking of the sponge onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

A tad strong, perhaps, but I agree pretty much entirely.

I'm a grown man, playing a point 'n' click game (am I the only one irritated by the omission of point-click interface?), and I got a little rush once or twice when LeChuck came into Club41 and the jungle. Sure, logically he wasn't gonna end the game like in an action-game, but I was so immersed in the story that I forgot about that. Demon-pirate-god LeChuck was apocalyptically badass and his makeover, plus the great voice-acting and the lovely moody atmospheres all added to a feeling of excitement that I haven't felt in MI since being chased around the tunnels beneath Dinky Island as a tiny kid.

The final sequence was astonishingly beautiful. The ship, the deep reddish tinge to everything, zombie-Guybrush, un-demonised Elaine, Demon-god LeChuck and were all great. The voice acting from Dominic Armato especially impressed me. Whenever we've had Guybrush he's been a cheesy, naive, fun guy. That changed in ep4, though I felt the scenes were always over-reaching themselves. For ep5 I felt Dom gave a great performance and the writing was very good. Sure, the scenes got frustrating after the third cycle, but unless you were overly dim I don't see why Guybrush would get knocked through the cycle more than 4-5 times and although the reuse of LeChucks comments was a tad disappointing, TTG don't have a massive budget and made this game in a month. It was hardly game-destroying.

[Bagge]

The showdown with LeChuck was easily the best puzzle in chapter five.

[Falanca]

The showdown with LeChuck was easily the best puzzle in chapter five.

It's true. Though, I can't say I'm happy with it.

[Bagge]

It's true. Though, I can't say I'm happy with it.

How so?

[thehardmenpath]

I loved the climax puzzle. It was perfect. You just can't quit the game if you reach that point. You really get motivaton when you see Guybrush being hit again and again.

Feeling the urge to help him defeat LeChuck was the needed part to get to the end.

I also like that it sparks controversy, btw. The fact that some of you don't like it because it makes you feel SAD ABOUT A CHARACTER is probably the best compliment a game designer can get.

[Falanca]

How so?

Well, that showdown part is what I call a "special" aspect where the game sets a new rule (which oftenly restricts you) and you have to solve a puzzle in that condition (examples being the last meeting with Conroy Bumpus in Sam and Max: Hit the Road where you can't go anywhere, or the showdown in MI2 where LeChuck is tracking you and makes it harder for you to make a voodoo doll of him). The thing is, those "special" rules are mostly set to give a "final boss part" feeling into the scene. Problem is, a game that tests your reasoning abilities should put a really hard puzzle at the very end of the game, and because of that "special rule" there is something that doesn't go in your favor which makes it even harder for you to beat the game. So, those parts are generally hated by players because it takes away too much time even for someone who knows how to solve the puzzle, and it just gets frustating for someone who tries to know how to solve it.

It's a rare condition that a "special" scene like that is the most appreciated of all other puzzles. I can come into that conclusion: The other puzzles in the episodes are really weak and easy compared to that showdown. It's a letdown for me, so I'm unhappy about it.

[Randulf]

What I found difficult in this puzzle is that if Guybrush drops directly from the crow's nest onto the deck, he does not have the time to complete the see-saw-Elaine-cannon sequence (you have to click on the see-saw twice before Guybrush would step on it: Guybrush always wastes one round at a lame joke; you want to punch him like LeChuck does). What you have to do is to slide from the crow's nest to the wheelhouse, wait for LeChuck to punch you to the deck. Then, for some reason, LeChuck will grant you enough time to complete the whole thing.

You may say there is some logic in this: it only takes one straight jump for LeChuck to go from the crow's nest to the deck, while it takes two jumps if he is at the wheelhouse. But from the player's point of view, it is difficult to figure out -- by either way you end up at the same location on the deck, why the difference? A cut scene that show how LeChuck moves from one location to another would have helped

[Ash735]

What I found difficult in this puzzle is that if Guybrush drops directly from the crow's nest onto the deck, he does not have the time to complete the see-saw-Elaine-cannon sequence (you have to click on the see-saw twice before Guybrush would step on it: Guybrush always wastes one round at a lame joke; you want to punch him like LeChuck does). What you have to do is to slide from the crow's nest to the wheelhouse, wait for LeChuck to punch you to the deck. Then, for some reason, LeChuck will grant you enough time to complete the whole thing.

You may say there is some logic in this: it only takes one straight jump for LeChuck to go from the crow's nest to the deck, while it takes two jumps if he is at the wheelhouse. But from the player's point of view, it is difficult to figure out -- by either way you end up at the same location on the deck, why the difference? A cut scene that show how LeChuck moves from one location to another would have helped

You NEED LeChuck to jump down from that point, anywhere else and he'll land behind Guybrush instead, but from that point, he'll always land infront of Guybrush, which is where the see-saw is, so you get enough time to tell Elaine to light the cannon (any other point and the cannon will go off early) and still get time to stand on the door and wait for LeChuck to jump down.

[Falanca]

What I found difficult in this puzzle is that if Guybrush drops directly from the crow's nest onto the deck, he does not have the time to complete the see-saw-Elaine-cannon sequence (you have to click on the see-saw twice before Guybrush would step on it: Guybrush always wastes one round at a lame joke; you want to punch him like LeChuck does). What you have to do is to slide from the crow's nest to the wheelhouse, wait for LeChuck to punch you to the deck. Then, for some reason, LeChuck will grant you enough time to complete the whole thing.

You may say there is some logic in this: it only takes one straight jump for LeChuck to go from the crow's nest to the deck, while it takes two jumps if he is at the wheelhouse. But from the player's point of view, it is difficult to figure out -- by either way you end up at the same location on the deck, why the difference? A cut scene that show how LeChuck moves from one location to another would have helped

It's actually not the logic behind that puzzle.

If LeChuck threw you from the crow's nest, that means he's still on the crow's nest and soon he'll be coming to kick your cheeks from up there. When he jumps out from there, he always drops at the RIGHT of Guybrush instead of LEFT, which is where the see-saw is located. What you have to do is find somewhere for LeChuck to jump from so that he can drop at your LEFT and launch you into the cannon. So you slide your way throught the wheelhouse just to make LeChuck come there and throw you down, so that when he comes near you again he'll land exactly on the see-saw.

After being thrown from the wheelhouse, only one click is enough for Guybrush to walk on the see-saw actually. Try it.

[fortunesfool]

I loved the game until the finale. The finale was awful, awful, awful.

[Leak]

Waiting around for Lechuck to beat me and throw me to the location I needed to go to was annoying. Why couldn't I just WALK to the other side of the deck, or CLIMB the ladder on the mast? By the time I figured out where everything was and what I needed to do, I had to wait around for Lechuck to finish clobbering me before I could do any of it.
Would have been great if trying to walk around had simply made LeChuck pop up in a "So where do you think you're going? *whack*" kind of way...

[Hero1]

I hated this puzzle.. Not so much because of what you had to do..but because of the time limit. You didn't have a chance to think what you needed to do because Lechuck would be hitting you every 5 seconds.. Also the repetition just made it really annoying fast. There was just 2 many steps to that puzzle to be done that kind of way. :(

[Andorxor]

I hate it because i always used the hook with the rope to escape another LeChuck-attack and never landed on the other side of the ship until i looked in the walkthrough.Enduring a bad event (that you can evade) should be no step in the solution (or at least heavy hinted on)

[Katsuro]

No. I'm not going to have morons that want an interactive movie. If you get a headache when asked to do even a MODICUM of actual effort and thought, just stop playing adventure games. I'm sure Disney Interactive has a fun series of Interactive Storybooks for you. Or hey, you know, pretty much every genre in mainstream modern times has been castrated and made far easier, so hey, why don't you go and play one of those. They're already tailored to your needs, so play those.

Stay away from the brilliant ending sequence, one of the few AMAZING shining moments of Tales that brought back that old Monkey Island spark. Because it's EXACTY what a LeChuck confrontation should be. It was brutal, it was scary, it was LeChuck in his best voiced appearance EVER. Everything from the shrinking of the sponge onward was genius, and put a smile on my face, and made the ending of a Monkey Island something that was actually good for the first time in 18 years.

So no, I didn't think it was "cumbersome" and "frustrating" and "waaah too hard ;_;".

I can sign this.
Completely with the harsh words.
And I only quoted this because it seemed the new page needed this comment as well.

[Scrawffler]

After I'd completed the sequence I sat back and thought, "whew! Now what the heck did I just do?" It was pretty tough in places, and when I first begun the showdown for a while I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I experimented a bit, and eventually the pieces came together and things made sense. It reminded me of the final puzzles in MI2 and CMI. You're under a bit of pressure because every so often LeChuck comes and forces you to a different part of the scene. But it feels good when you finally work it out!

[Bagge]

Well, that showdown part is what I call a "special" aspect where the game sets a new rule (which oftenly restricts you) and you have to solve a puzzle in that condition (examples being the last meeting with Conroy Bumpus in Sam and Max: Hit the Road where you can't go anywhere, or the showdown in MI2 where LeChuck is tracking you and makes it harder for you to make a voodoo doll of him). The thing is, those "special" rules are mostly set to give a "final boss part" feeling into the scene. Problem is, a game that tests your reasoning abilities should put a really hard puzzle at the very end of the game, and because of that "special rule" there is something that doesn't go in your favor which makes it even harder for you to beat the game. So, those parts are generally hated by players because it takes away too much time even for someone who knows how to solve the puzzle, and it just gets frustating for someone who tries to know how to solve it.

It's a rare condition that a "special" scene like that is the most appreciated of all other puzzles. I can come into that conclusion: The other puzzles in the episodes are really weak and easy compared to that showdown. It's a letdown for me, so I'm unhappy about it.

I see nothing to support you claim that players generaly hate puzzles that introduces special rules to adventure games. Some of the most widely praised puzzles in TMI were indeed such "rule-changers", like being strapped to the operating table in chapter one or the fight with Morgan in chapter two. The type of puzzle that however do seem to generate a lot of moans from players are the standarized, unimaginative adventure game puzzles like "use object A with object B" or "find this list of objects"-type puzzles.

It sounds from your argument that these boss fight like puzzles are simply normal puzzles with an added time limit, forcing you to wait for a long time if you do not figure out the solution within the time limit, but this is far from the truth, especially in the TMI ending. Being constantly moved around, and figuring out how to work with or change up the pattern is part of the puzzle. In addition to allowing the designers to come up with some clever out of the box puzzles, these "boss-fights" also provide a much needed sense of urgency and tension that grand adventure game finales desperately need to avoid becoming anticlimatic.

[Rather Dashing]

I see nothing to support you claim that players generaly hate puzzles that introduces special rules to adventure games. Some of the most widely praised puzzles in TMI were indeed such "rule-changers", like being strapped to the operating table in chapter one or the fight with Morgan in chapter two. The type of puzzle that however do seem to generate a lot of moans from players are the standarized, unimaginative adventure game puzzles like "use object A with object B" or "find this list of objects"-type puzzles.

It sounds from your argument that these boss fight like puzzles are simply normal puzzles with an added time limit, forcing you to wait for a long time if you do not figure out the solution within the time limit, but this is far from the truth, especially in the TMI ending. Being constantly moved around, and figuring out how to work with or change up the pattern is part of the puzzle. In addition to allowing the designers to come up with some clever out of the box puzzles, these "boss-fights" also provide a much needed sense of urgency and tension that grand adventure game finales desperately need to avoid becoming anticlimatic.
I hate making "This." posts, but I just have to say how much I appreciate this post. Even by the standards of someone who generally makes great posts, which I'd say you are, it's just an excellent piece of logic.

I'm sorry I have nothing to contribute here, and I probably shouldn't be posting because I don't, but I just thought this really deserved a thumbs-up.

[pluizig]

The time limit was too long sometimes. Having to wait ten seconds doing nothing for LeChuck to show up and beat you to a new location is not fun.

[Lena_P]

That might be a glitch, pluizig. While LeChuck is supposed to show up after 7 or 8 seconds, some people had to wait longer or he didn't show up at all and they had to reload another save to fix it. The Telltales are working on it, though, so it should be patched up for later downloads and the DVD.

[Javi-Wan Kenobi]

Yes, it's the only thing I really didn't like in all the showdown. Specially when you are not even able to move with WASD.
It isn't very logical, from Guybrush point of view, to stay still without doing anything, not even move, when your wife is fighting a bunch of demonic skeletons and LeChuck is using you as a punching-ball. EVEN if you already know what are you supposed to do, and even if you know that you must allow LeChuck punch you.
I think it would have been more logical if -as somebody said before- when trying to move (using WASD or wathever), you triggered the appeareance of LeChuck, without having to wait the full time.

[Masta23]

I loved the game until the finale. The finale was awful, awful, awful.
it's typical monkey Island. They had a time sequenced puzzle at the end of MI1,MI2 and Mi3 against Lechuck.

[Lena_P]

I think Guybrush was unable to move because he was so beat up. He was in too much pain to really be able to do much. That's what I figured, anyway.

[Javi-Wan Kenobi]

I think Guybrush was unable to move because he was so beat up. He was in too much pain to really be able to do much. That's what I figured, anyway.Me too, actually

[Gaso]

Wholeheartedly agreee with original poster... and what's with the unnecessary travel between Winslow and Club 41. Weakest episode in whole season for me. Ep3 on the other hand... just use those guys next time..

[Falanca]

I see nothing to support you claim that players generaly hate puzzles that introduces special rules to adventure games. Some of the most widely praised puzzles in TMI were indeed such "rule-changers", like being strapped to the operating table in chapter one or the fight with Morgan in chapter two. The type of puzzle that however do seem to generate a lot of moans from players are the standarized, unimaginative adventure game puzzles like "use object A with object B" or "find this list of objects"-type puzzles.

It sounds from your argument that these boss fight like puzzles are simply normal puzzles with an added time limit, forcing you to wait for a long time if you do not figure out the solution within the time limit, but this is far from the truth, especially in the TMI ending. Being constantly moved around, and figuring out how to work with or change up the pattern is part of the puzzle. In addition to allowing the designers to come up with some clever out of the box puzzles, these "boss-fights" also provide a much needed sense of urgency and tension that grand adventure game finales desperately need to avoid becoming anticlimatic.

Well, I never said it's not clever, they're just generally hated by new adventure players. I agree with you there. I just wanted to point out that the other puzzles are not even competitive with this puzzle. Because of this rare condition, I'm unhappy, and this is not because of the ship showdown, but because of the other puzzles.

Though, noone can deny that those kind of puzzles are always hated by some;

I hated this puzzle.. Not so much because of what you had to do..but because of the time limit. You didn't have a chance to think what you needed to do because Lechuck would be hitting you every 5 seconds.. Also the repetition just made it really annoying fast. There was just 2 many steps to that puzzle to be done that kind of way. :(

...and this is just an example of it.

[Wishbone]

I think the fight was great, with the exception of being unable to move on your own. It just seemed so incredibly unnatural and artificially restricting. And no, it isn't because Guybrush is too tired from all the beatings, since he is perfectly capable of walking in the few places where you can click something for him to walk to (the seesaw, the locked cabinet with the grog barrels).

And yes, when you miss an action within the time limit, and just have to stand around waiting for LeChuck to come and punch you again, that's annoying, but again, that's caused by not being able to move on your own.

As others have said, the climactic fight is essentially a copy of the one from MI2. If only they'd copied the bit about moving as well.

[sharper]

I felt the one issue with the final battle was a lack of feedback. Like when you received no feedback when trying to move Guybrush around. I'm okay with Guybrush not being able to move since he's a corpse on the verge of being beaten into hamburger. It makes sense that movement has become limited. However at the beginning of the scene I did not feel warned of this expectation. Some rounds I desperately wanted to move Guybrush to the next location or even over to another area on the screen to speed up the puzzle solving only to discover he wouldn't budge. If Guybrush said something like: "So much for getting my body back, I can barely move." that would have been enough feedback to let me know that I have to solve these puzzles without moving.

Another case where feedback would have been appreciated was the 'see-saw' scene. Again, a very simple puzzle, I knew what I had to do, but I had to do it through trial and error since I had little to no feedback telling me that LeChuck was pouncing from a different route depending on how I chose to wind up on the exact same part of the damn ship. It wasn't hard to figure out but when I finally had, I had to go through a whole cycle of getting my ass kicked before I could do it in the right order.

Which leads me to my last issue, the dependency on LeChuck to move around. It has already been mentioned here but I just have to agree, there should have been a way to trigger the event from moving from one area to the next. There were several rounds where I just let the game stand there until LeChuck came, at which point I was bored and frustrated out of my skull. I knew how to solve the puzzles, they were child's play. But the game was delaying me through bad game mechanics.

There is however one thing I can defend about the final battle of Episode 5, that is people should have known there was going to be time limitations in this level. Anyone who has played MI 1-3 would know the typical Monkey Island boss fight pattern where LeChuck encroaches on Guybrush's puzzle solving time. This I actually think is a good game mechanic in the respect that until now you've had all the time in the world to problem solve. Now you don't. This heightens the tension and difficulty, and keeps interest. If it wasn't ruined by the delay issue, ToMI would have had this aspect spot on.

Whenever I've had to design any kind of interactive interface for my multimedia classes, I would get scrutinized big time if there was any aspect of my interface which wasn't immediately intuitive or efficient in the eye of the user. I feel at no point should any game company be exempt from the same kind of criticism. Tales of Monkey Island needed more polish on the controls and interface, especially for this scene.

[Wishbone]

Whenever I've had to design any kind of interactive interface for my multimedia classes, I would get scrutinized big time if there was any aspect of my interface which wasn't immediately intuitive or efficient in the eye of the user. I feel at no point should any game company be exempt from the same kind of criticism. Tales of Monkey Island needed more polish on the controls and interface, especially for this scene.
I agree. There are several things in the control scheme that could use some tweaking. Especially the "combine items" function. Whenever that comes up, someone always pops out of the woodwork to say "well, that's because that is how the TellTale engine works". So what? Change the damned engine already! They made it themselves didn't they? Have they lost the source code? As long as a piece of software is being used productively, there is no such thing as "good enough". You don't just stop improving the code.

Look at all the old LucasArts adventure games. They all used the SCUMM engine, but not the same version. The engine was updated and added to with each new game. Why shouldn't TellTale update their own engine?

[sharper]

I agree. There are several things in the control scheme that could use some tweaking. Especially the "combine items" function. Whenever that comes up, someone always pops out of the woodwork to say "well, that's because that is how the TellTale engine works". So what? Change the damned engine already! They made it themselves didn't they? Have they lost the source code? As long as a piece of software is being used productively, there is no such thing as "good enough". You don't just stop improving the code.

Look at all the old LucasArts adventure games. They all used the SCUMM engine, but not the same version. The engine was updated and added to with each new game. Why shouldn't TellTale update their own engine?

I'm hoping since they never updated it after all the complaints from episode 1 onward, that they will update it for season 2. The combined items interface was tolerable on the Wii, but irritating on the PC. I liked SCUMM's simple drag one object over the other to combine scheme. Straight forward, and effective, with no mess. This drag the two items into a separate area and press the button feels clunky, and prevents the possibility of having puzzles that require combining more than 2 objects together.

I'm really glad someone else agrees that the interface can go beyond just 'good enough.'

[doodo!]

I kind of felt the final battle used too much floor glue and restricted movement far too much. I much rather play an ending similar to Broken Sword 2. Multiple rooms, but instead have like a boulder from one room run over lechuck some how after you go through room to room to guide its path. Something like that.

I felt glued to the ship and it was frustrating to try and click and move and figure things out when you were limited unlike before and your feet cemented into place. It was a little short from a button smasher sequence to watch movies.

I still enjoyed the game.

[Andorxor]

Combining items shouldn't be easy or it lets to lots of solution before problem moments,because the player has already reflective combined everything with everything else.The player thinks before he use something when it isn't easy.

[sharper]

Combining items shouldn't be easy or it lets to lots of solution before problem moments,because the player has already reflective combined everything with everything else.The player thinks before he use something when it isn't easy.

Either I am way too tired at 1 am to be reading forum posts, or what you just said is so grammatically incomplete I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say.

Translation: Combining items shouldn't be easy, otherwise players would just combine every possibility and find solutions before they were even faced with the initial problems. Making it complex forces players to think before they make a move.

If this is a good translation here is my response: If the player can find solutions before the problems are initiated, that is either a coding issue or bad level design.

Typically players are only given items as they need them, otherwise these items should be coded not to react with anything until the proper switch in the game is triggered. Otherwise it would be like finding the key to the bosses room, before you have the weapon to defeat the boss. If this is the kind of case we're talking about then its not the item combining that is the problem, it is the level design. The designer should know better to hide the key until the other item is obtained, or the player is going to be screwed and not understand why. And it could cause game glitching.

I can't think of an adventure game that hasn't considered this. I've never been able to 'solve' something, before knowing what I've solved per say. Also if I happen to combine items that I'll need later in the game, how is that different than picking up a non combined item I'll need later? For example compare this: Oh I found a pot on the floor, don't know why I'll need it but could be handy. -vs- I found a thorn and a tube. Oh hey that would make a great pea shooter! Dunno why I'll need that yet, but could be handy. In either case I may not know what the item is for at that moment, but if the combined items make sense then that shouldn't be an issue.

You suggest that players think more because they can't quickly and easily combine items. Are you honestly telling me that you think no one here tried combining random items in their inventory in Tales of Monkey Island because the combining method slows us down? I guess I'm an oddball then. I still combined items even with the annoying interface just to see if the game had any easter eggs like all the other games use to have. Then again I feel like the odd one out on these forums for most of my opinions.

[VeronicanPlay]

It was a bit frustrating that you had to stand around and wait 10 seks to get punched about to get from one area to another when you know you have to get there next, but it wasn't annoying to be punched to the same places a few times, I mean it's not like Guybrush can look in to the future and know exactly what to do, he had to work it out through trial and error, try different things till he gets the idea of what works together and anticipate LeChuck moves to work it all into his favour.

But I think he couldn't really do much, because he was battered and weak and LeChuck was full of voodoo energy. When you did get to places where he had to walk to interact he was limping and in a lot of pain

But I did feel restless seeing Guybrush being beaten up as he was, I was starting to talk to the game, telling Guybrush to please stay strong and hang on a little longer, I was getting the hang of it, and I would help him soon.