The TMI plot explained in a nutshell

[ATMachine]

So working with the help of Kroms's bullet points (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14097), I have worked out what I think to be the Grand Backstory behind TMI. Master Plans and all are revealed here! SPOILERS AHEAD!

PLEASE NOTE: This is a REVISED version of the original post, in which I have modified my theories to incorporate things pointed out by fellow forum members.

Ahem.

So some time before Narwhal, Guybrush gets the Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu recipe from the Voodoo Lady. (One of the dialogue options on first meeting her in Narwhal is "That cutlass recipe you gave me was a dud!" though Guybrush never says it out loud.)

However, this Cursed Cutlass would inevitably, when used, fail to kill LeChuck. Even if Guybrush hadn't tampered with the recipe, it would still fail because he isn't attacking LeChuck while he's crossing between worlds. This is intentional on the Voodoo Lady's part.

The Voodoo Lady desires to keep Guybrush and LeChuck eternally at each other's throats. By the end of Rise, she possesses Guybrush's poxed hand and an essence of LeChuck, which combined are enough to resurrect BOTH of them, if either should die, thus continuing the cycle infinitely. (Remi Olsen has pointed out that she was already seen shipping voodoo supplies to LeChuck in MI2!)

Elaine does NOT know at first that the Cutlass of Kaflu is destined to fail, since she tries to use it herself on LeChuck at the finale of Rise. Nor does she know yet that, to kill LeChuck, you need the help of someone standing on the other side of the Crossroads. (Guybrush has to tell her this in Rise.)

However, by the end of Rise she clearly believes that the Voodoo Lady is up to no good. The feeling is mutual. In the seagull scene in Rise, the Voodoo Lady calls Elaine a "loose cannon" who "does not trust in Voodoo." She's telling a half-truth in this last statement: Elaine does in fact trust Voodoo, just not the Voodoo Lady's voodoo.

Elaine has probably suspected the Voodoo Lady of nefarious deeds for a while now, since in Rise she says that she first let LeChuck capture her in order to demonstrate this to Guybrush. Most likely, though, she fully grasps how bad the Voodoo Lady is after LeChuck is humanized and the Pox is released.

Once she has been captured, Elaine watches Guybrush use the cutlass on LeChuck, not knowing for certain but half-suspecting it won't work at all, and hoping that Guybrush now realizes that the Voodoo Lady has been lying to him all along. He doesn't, of course.

LeChuck is turned human, and although Elaine knows he is still nasty and evil, she hopes to use him to get at the Voodoo Lady (by, for example, obtaining her diary). She doesn't tell Guybrush, of course. But she is thrown off her guard, and lulled into security, by the evil Voodoo of his belt buckle, and fails to adequately make plans for his eventual betrayal of them in Trial.

Elaine doesn't know yet that LeChuck can only be killed once he is crossing between worlds. But she goes along with LeChuck's plan to "give the monkeys new homes," even though she suspects it's all a lie, at least in order to convince him his disguise is working (as noted, the belt buckle clouds her judgment).

The Pox is released, and then Guybrush turns up with a quest from the Voodoo Lady to go after "La Esponja Grande." This is probably where the pieces all click together for Elaine. Since she knows Human LeChuck is still evil, she is certain that, once La Esponja absorbs all the voodoo energy of the Pox, LeChuck will simply take the sponge and reabsorb the voodoo into himself. She also knows that the Voodoo Lady PLANNED this to happen.

When Guybrush loses his hand to Morgan (and his wedding ring with it), Elaine supplies him with her ring instantly. She doesn't know EXACTLY what he'll need it for, but she DOES know that wedding rings are powerful items in voodoo spells, because of the pure love they represent. She wants Guybrush to be magically protected in case the worst should happen.

Elaine is blindsided by LeChuck killing Guybrush (which she WOULD have foreseen were it not for the demonic belt buckle). She didn't want Guybrush to enter the Crossroads by actually DYING.

Then once Guybrush returns as a ghost, LeChuck announces that the Cutlass of Kaflu is the only weapon that can kill him in the mortal world, and that he has enchanted it so that no mortal can touch it. Elaine is immediately seen going "Hmm!" Her next line after that is to LeChuck: "Make me your demon bride!" or some such.

Elaine obviously decides on the spot to become a demon, so as to get her hands on the Cutlass, and is counting on Guybrush (as she says in the very end of Rise) to restore her afterward, so she can kill LeChuck with the blade. (I guess she expects to keep holding onto it as a demon until she's exorcised!)

In other words, Elaine's master plan was never set in stone, but has had to change in numerous ways, due to unforeseen events. Such events included the Pox being released, or LeChuck surviving as a human, or Guybrush losing his hand, or LeChuck killing Guybrush (a major unforeseen event!), or LeChuck cursing the Cutlass to make it unusable by mortals.

When Guybrush is punted back into the Crossroads by LeChuck, Morgan shows up after an extended absence and stabs him with a new sword. Guybrush asks where she got it but she doesn't answer.

Answer: The Voodoo Lady gave Morgan the sword, in exchange for her retrieving LeChuck's essence after dispatching him. The Voodoo Lady wants to kill LeChuck for the moment, so that Guybrush will be lulled into a false sense of security and think LeChuck is finally truly dead. She knows, however, that if Morgan does her job right, she will soon have the Essence of LeChuck with which to revive the demon pirate at a later date.

LeChuck's plan, of course, is much simpler: Hypnotize the 13 Monkeys of Montevideo and place them at specified locations in the Caribbean, so as to reveal the physical location of the Crossroads in the mortal world, allowing him to crack it open, suck out its energy, and become the Demon Pirate God. Needless to say, his scheme fails until Guybrush unwittingly helps him out.

Comments?

NEW EDIT: After input from commenters, I've rewritten this so it's somewhat more plausible. People have pointed out that I thought Elaine knew far too much, and I think they're right!

[sedian]

All true. ;)

[martymcfly]

Well done! Pretty much what I had been thinking myself, nice to see it all written out like this :)

[fergusdog]

Some good thoughts - especially the last two (I was also wondering if Morgan got the blade from the Voodoo Lady).

Elaine is smart but I don't think she has forseen the events that well. Partly, she probably just relied on gut feeling - ie she was sure Guybrush would need the ring, but probably didn't know the details.

I'm not buying into the Voodoo Lady controls everything theory. It's a too simple explanation and as she says herself she's just a pawn in a much bigger game. She certainly meddles with fate, but I believe she has in fact good intentions and there's more at stake as we can see. However, her owning LeChuck in a jar makes me think she has her very own agenda as well. I'm quite convinced she neither wants to resurrect him nor dispose of him but rather needs him for something else - which may be revealed in season 2.

[Seepgood]

Well done! There is no way I could have put that all together in one coherent body like that.
My only problem with it is the Voodoo Lady's plan to eventually bring back LeChuck. Since he knows that she has been using him, she can no longer use him. Thus she helps defeat him and takes his essence for safe keeping along with Guybrushes hand since it has some of LeChuck's voodoo in it. In the process of doing all this she also gets Morgan to fill LeChuck's role as hinted at in the whole Ghost Pirate Hunter Morgan LeFlay.
But that's mostly just my opinion.
Again well done!!!

[Diduz]

Following this route, the Big Whoop in MI2 was just another trap to keep Guybrush and LeChuck fighting forever?

Seriously, we already got the mystery behind MI2 ending, why adding other mayhem to the mayhem?

The things ATMachine wrote could've been explained at the end of Rise of the Pirate God. THAT would have made Rise REALLY shine.
As it is, I can't get Telltale's strategy on the final (?) episode.

[Secret Fawful]

I agree with this, especially the role of the Voodoo Lady. I think it makes much more sense, but you've left one part out, and that is how much hatred LeChuck feels towards her.

He's tired of being led around, and let's face it, he's gotten the hardest and worst end of the deal. He's become an evil foul sadistic monster all because of her meddling, and he has every right to be angry.

[Falanca]

LeChuck has a goal you know. He doesn't want to fight with Guybrush and spend his valuable time. He wants to marry Elaine and that's it. Being in a cycle makes his goal impossible for him to complete.

[pluizig]

By the end of Rise, she possesses Guybrush's poxed hand and an essence of LeChuck

Wait, what? When does this happen?

[Seepgood]

Wait, what? When does this happen?

Its laying on her desk/table in the post-credits scene, its only visible briefly.

[PecanBlue]

Thanks so much for this, it helped me understand a lot. Especially on the subject of what Elaine had been planning to do throughout the whole game.

[Katsuro]

wow!
Awesome! This should be a sticky :D

[Seepgood]

Following this route, the Big Whoop in MI2 was just another trap to keep Guybrush and LeChuck fighting forever?

Seriously, we already got the mystery behind MI2 ending, why adding other mayhem to the mayhem?

The things ATMachine wrote could've been explained at the end of Rise of the Pirate God. THAT would have made Rise REALLY shine.
As it is, I can't get Telltale's strategy on the final (?) episode.

I don't think the Voodoo Lady was actually in complete control of both LeChuck and Guybrush all the time. Instead she just sort of gives things a nudge to keep them going in the right direction (ie. in a circle). Also, the MI2 ending isn't really much of a mystery, it seems to me like it was made pretty clear with the post-credits scene with Elaine that Guybrush was just under some spell of LeChuck's.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Wow I indicated in earlier threads that I didn't like the story but after reading that - if Telltale actually planned all that - then the story is amazing.

Although I noticed a lot of the plot points the author noted, I failed to construct it as coherently as he did. In other words, I had no earthly idea what the fuck was going on in Episode 5.

Did anyone else feel the same way, or am I just an idiot? :confused:

Edit: If this is accurate, which I am fairly certain it is, then it should be stickied.

[pluizig]

This gives the story some structure, sure, but a lot of it is conjecture.

[thehardmenpath]

This is a great discovery. The Voodoo lady thing COULD REALLY BE the secret of Monkey Island.

Now the question is... Why is she interested in an eternal fight? What's good for her in it? What's bad for her if it ends?

[Acemaster]

Wait, how does Elaine suddenly know so much? Starting from that the cutlass is a failure?

And I'm still thinking she thought Guybrush needed the ring, but didn't know exactly when or how. >: )

[ATMachine]

The conclusions I draw contain some degree of conjecture, true, but all the things I have conjectured are reasonable inferences, based on clues scattered throughout TMI. If you can make the Master Plans map to the game plot equally well with an alternative explanation, however, feel free.

[ATMachine]

Terrible apologies for double-posting, but I ought to add this further clarification on my earlier remarks.

EDIT: This post was full of speculation I have since had to revise. Sorry!

[One-Eyed Kijin]

As interesting as that story is, your version of events would require Elaine to have a vast knowledge of Voodoo magic, which I doubt she has. If she does know all about these voodoo spells, then Telltale should attempt to explain how she learned about them all without Guybrush noticing his wife's interest in the occult. Although Elaine always does have a plan, I have a hard time accepting that she was that well informed.

[jp-30]

This is a great discovery. The Voodoo lady thing COULD REALLY BE the secret of Monkey Island.

The secret of Monkey Island was in that box on the thief's table. Pity it got destroyed by the sponge.

;)

[Hayden]

All of this speculation of possible explanations is why I think there will definitely be a second season.

[CaptKevinKID]

So working with the help of Kroms's bullet points (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14097), I have worked out what I think to be the Grand Backstory behind TMI. Master Plans and all are revealed here! SPOILERS AHEAD!

Ahem.

So some time before Narwhal, Guybrush gets the Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu recipe from the Voodoo Lady. (One of the dialogue options on first meeting her in Narwhal is "That cutlass recipe you gave me was a dud!" though Guybrush never says it out loud.)

However, this Cursed Cutlass would inevitably, when used, fail to kill LeChuck. Even if Guybrush hadn't tampered with the recipe, it would still fail because he isn't attacking LeChuck while he's crossing between worlds. This is intentional on the Voodoo Lady's part.

The Voodoo Lady desires to keep Guybrush and LeChuck eternally at each other's throats. By the end of Rise, she possesses Guybrush's poxed hand and an essence of LeChuck, which combined are enough to resurrect BOTH of them, if either should die, thus continuing the cycle infinitely. (Remi Olsen has pointed out that she was already seen shipping voodoo supplies to LeChuck in MI2!)

Elaine knows the cutlass of Kaflu is destined to fail, and that the Voodoo Lady is up to no good. She obviously dislikes the Voodoo Lady, as seen in episode 5, and the feeling is mutual. In the seagull scene in Rise, the Voodoo Lady calls Elaine a "loose cannon" who "does not trust in Voodoo." She's telling a half-truth in this last statement: Elaine does in fact trust Voodoo, just not the Voodoo Lady's voodoo.

So Elaine lets herself be captured by LeChuck (as she indicates while on his ship in Rise). She lets Guybrush use the cutlass on LeChuck, knowing full well it WON'T work, and hoping that Guybrush now realizes that the Voodoo Lady has been lying to him all along. He doesn't, of course.

Elaine further knows that to kill LeChuck requires the combined effort of two people, one in this plane and one standing in the Crossroads. She thinks Guybrush must enter that realm BODILY, like Odysseus descending to the world of the dead, and expects him to use his wedding ring as a "get out of Hell free" card. (Remember, you need to have a BODY to use physical objects like the ring!)

The La Esponja Grande quest is, in this scenario, mostly an afterthought, a quest taken up by Elaine and Guybrush in order to soak up the dangerous amounts of Voodoo released in their botched attempt to kill LeChuck. (Elaine knows the Cutlass won't work: she just doesn't know HOW it won't work. She can't predict the Pox of LeChuck or him becoming human, both of which she has to plan for on the fly.) The Voodoo Lady plays along with it, since she desires to gather up all that voodoo so it can be returned to LeChuck.

So LeChuck is turned human, and although Elaine knows he is still nasty and evil, she hopes to use him to get at the Voodoo Lady (via obtaining her diary). But she is thrown off her guard, and lulled into security, by the evil Voodoo of his belt buckle, and fails to adequately make plans for his eventual betrayal of them in Trial.

When Guybrush loses his hand to Morgan (and his wedding ring with it), Elaine supplies him with her ring instantly, knowing he'll need it for the spell.

At the end of Spinner Cay, Elaine stays with LeChuck in order to place the Monkeys of Montevideo in what she calls their "homes." Really, of course, this is the setup for LeChuck's spell to open the mortal world's gate to the Crossroads. Surely she knew this, even though she would never have TOLD LeChuck that she knew. Elaine probably planned to use this hole between worlds as the method by which Guybrush would cross over, allowing them together to defeat LeChuck. Guybrush's getting killed was not part of her agenda.

Elaine is blindsided by LeChuck killing Guybrush (which she WOULD have foreseen were it not for the demonic belt buckle). She didn't want Guybrush to enter the Crossroads by actually DYING.

Then once Guybrush returns as a ghost, LeChuck announces that the Cutlass of Kaflu is the only weapon that can kill him in the mortal world, and that he has enchanted it so that no mortal can touch it. Elaine is immediately seen going "Hmm!" Her next line after that is to LeChuck: "Make me your demon bride!" or some such.

Elaine obviously decides on the spot to become a demon, so as to get her hands on the Cutlass, and is counting on Guybrush (as she says in the very end of Rise) to restore her afterward, so she can kill LeChuck with the blade. (I guess she expects to keep holding onto it as a demon until she's exorcised!)

In other words, Elaine's master plan was never set in stone, but has had to change in numerous ways, due to unforeseen events. Such events included the Pox being released, or LeChuck surviving as a human, or Guybrush losing his hand, or LeChuck killing Guybrush (a major unforeseen event!), or LeChuck cursing the Cutlass to make it unusable by mortals.

When Guybrush is punted back into the Crossroads by LeChuck, Morgan shows up after an extended absence and stabs him with a new sword. Guybrush asks where she got it but she doesn't answer.

Answer: The Voodoo Lady gave Morgan the sword, in exchange for her retrieving LeChuck's essence after dispatching him. The Voodoo Lady wants to kill LeChuck for the moment, so that Guybrush will be lulled into a false sense of security and think LeChuck is finally truly dead. She knows, however, that if Morgan does her job right, she will soon have the Essence of LeChuck with which to revive the demon pirate at a later date.

LeChuck's plan, of course, is much simpler: Hypnotize the 13 Monkeys of Montevideo and place them at specified locations in the Caribbean, so as to reveal the physical location of the Crossroads in the mortal world, allowing him to crack it open, suck out its energy, and become the Demon Pirate God. Needless to say, his scheme fails until Guybrush unwittingly helps him out.

Comments?

EDIT: I forgot to add:

Elaine knows the Cutlass won't work in Narwhal: she just doesn't know HOW it won't work. She can't predict the release of the Pox of LeChuck or him becoming human, both of which she has to plan for on the fly.

EDIT 2: Also added:

At the end of Spinner Cay, Elaine stays with LeChuck in order to place the Monkeys of Montevideo in what she calls their "homes." Really, of course, this is the setup for LeChuck's spell to open the mortal world's gate to the Crossroads. Surely she knew this, even though she would never have TOLD LeChuck that she knew. Elaine probably planned to use this hole between worlds as the method by which Guybrush would cross over, allowing them together to defeat LeChuck. Guybrush's getting killed was not part of her agenda.


So very true it makes perfect sense.

What about at the beginning of the game when in the voodoo Lady's hut you see a chest, was that LeChuck's chest with the informass Belt buckle?

[brian.shapiro]

I think when people here try to imbue some kind of motives on the Voodoo lady they're making too much of things...

The Voodoo lady believes, according to everything we know, that there's some type of order to things in the world in which everyone plays a part and takes part in roles, fulfilling certain events---as we see in the cards--ie, Guybrush the Hero, Elaine the Lover, the pox is the Curse, etc.

She also doesn't think she can change these things, because everything is set in fate, so she doesn't try to. It's not that she's 'neutral' like people say, she just knows the limits of her own role, because she understands herself as part of a bigger picture. She does heavily help Guybrush in this game, and doesn't appear to help LeChuck, which shows she isn't necessarily neutral. Its not clear if she ever helped LeChuck at all, and remember she says to Guybrush something like 'goodness was never in his path', which means she believes LeChuck would have done evil no matter what.

However, she does play her own role in this scheme of things. She gives her guidance and advice to those who see her, good or evil. So whether its Guybrush who comes to see her or LeChuck, she gives the the best guidance she can give, and lets them make their own choices. If Guybrush comes to see her, she also knows she can rely on him and also help her gain Voodoo items. If LeChuck were ever to see her, she would know that he would make her life miserable, so would do whatever was necessary to deal with him and get him on his way. She would work with him, just to the degree that LeChuck would think that nothing is a problem and believe she's cooperating, so he would leave her alone.

People have mentioned the shipping crates to LeChuck in MI2. First you have to remember that the shipping crates ended up helping Guybrush go to his fortress and defeat him--so its not clear that the Voodoo lady was helping LeChuck--but may have been helping Guybrush. As far as it bears on any relationship with LeChuck---she may have agreed to ship those things to him to placate him and prevent him from bothering her--at the same time that she knew that the shipment would help Guybrush go to defeat him.

I think when the Voodoo lady says 'Elaine doesn't trust voodoo' it essentially means Elaine believes in free will, and not fate. She believes the Voodoo lady has choices and does things that ends up creating this cycle; empowering LeChuck only to have Guybrush destroy him later. That's completely opposed to the way the Voodoo lady thinks of things; she believes all of these things are fated.

[Kroms]

Guys, keep in mind that this theory heavily relies on the Voodoo Lady being closer to her SMI/MI2 personas than her CMI/EMI ones, where she was more helpful and just wary of LeChuck. She definitely has her own agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she was the ultimate villain after all.

ATMachine, excellent work. I also ask for this topic to be stickied.

[gregowich]

As interesting as that story is, your version of events would require Elaine to have a vast knowledge of Voodoo magic, which I doubt she has. If she does know all about these voodoo spells, then Telltale should attempt to explain how she learned about them all without Guybrush noticing his wife's interest in the occult. Although Elaine always does have a plan, I have a hard time accepting that she was that well informed.

Yeah, I'm really surprised more people don't ask this. Even if it's true she gave the ring to Guybrush without entirely knowing the use it would be, still, how did she even have an idea about that? But then again, in the SMI for instance, Elaine has always had more idea about everything than Guybrush... So maybe she's always had a big amount of knowledge of voodoo, even before Guybrush met her. Or perhaps she has a connection with Voodoo Lady in some way, and there's actually another reason why she doesn't trust her.
And I do believe Voodoo Lady will bring LeChuck back from the Lechuck Juice, because I simply can't imagine a Monkey Island game without him!
And perhaps all these intrigues will eventually lead back onto Monkey Island again in the next season?

[Ignatius]

I dont know, i dont think Elaine know so much.

I think also the Cutlass was supposed to work. The Vodoo Lady is pretty mad when Guybrush failed to present her the esscence of LeChuck trapped in the cutlass (wich is at the end made by Morgan)

I also think that at the end Elaine is holding an uncharged Cutlass so its just like a normal sword and she cant kill Lechuck with just that. And even if it was charged he is a pirate god now, not the same Lechuck from the beggining, and that requieres a different and more complex way of killing him.

[Laserschwert]

Don't forget, in the beginning of "Tales", Elaine is held captive by LeChuck... who knows what he has told her about his plans and the Voodoo-workings of it?

[balin2k]

Its laying on her desk/table in the post-credits scene, its only visible briefly.

oh yeah! just say it now. didnt notive it before.

hmm. i wonder if telltale will make another TMI season. i hope so. i wonder what the voodoo lady is planing.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I dont know, i dont think Elaine know so much.

I think also the Cutlass was supposed to work. The Vodoo Lady is pretty mad when Guybrush failed to present her the esscence of LeChuck trapped in the cutlass (wich is at the end made by Morgan)

I also think that at the end Elaine is holding an uncharged Cutlass so its just like a normal sword and she cant kill Lechuck with just that. And even if it was charged he is a pirate god now, not the same Lechuck from the beggining, and that requieres a different and more complex way of killing him.

Interesting point about the Cutlass. Maybe I'm going senile, but I seem to remember the Voodoo lady saying after she saw Guybrush for the first time that he needed to give her the Cutlass so Le Chuck could be purged. That seems to indicate that her goal was to obtain the Essence of Le Chuck, presumably so that she could continue the endless cycle of conflict.

Elaine seemed pretty certain in Episode 1 that the Cutlass would work, and seemed surprised when it failed, so she presumably she assumed that the cutlass would work. Even Le Chuck was baffled when he was transformed into a human.

It seems to me that the quest for Le Esponja Grande was set up by the Voodoo lady as a Plan B of sorts. Since the Cutlass failed, Le Chuck's essence had to be sucked into the sponge, although it is uncertain what her plan with the sponge was from that point on.

[ivan11111]

This is honestly a brilliant account of the thing. SO much goes unsaid about Elaine's motives, and while we see her succumbing to the pox and becoming the demon bride, we now see that she has a reason for the whole thing. I'd not thought of it in such clarity, so thanks. It's a great explanation and makes me just want to play the whole thing again to see if they laid any clues!

[ATMachine]

To those who say Elaine could never have known so much Voodoo: remember, there was a whole adventure that Guybrush and Elaine had, taking place right before TMI (what Dave Grossman jokingly called the "real" MI5 :rolleyes: ). Maybe she learned about this stuff in the course of THAT.

Also keep in mind that episode 5, where we finally learn about most of this stuff, was the one which had the most input by Ron Gilbert. Plus, Elaine was the character whose treatment in TMI Ron gave the most advice about (I recall reading this in an interview somewhere).

TMI is clearly bringing back Magnificent Bastard Elaine from MI1. Remember in that game you've spent much of it trying to rescue her and putting together a voodoo recipe for defeating LeChuck. But when you finally confront him, not only has she already rescued herself and planted a decoy, she's also obtained a jar of ghost-destroying voodoo root beer on her own! Clearly she has some knowledge of this sort of thing already.

EDIT: this part was based on speculation I have since revised. Oops!

[pluizig]

TMI is clearly bringing back Magnificent Bastard Elaine from MI1. Remember in that game you've spent much of it trying to rescue her and putting together a voodoo recipe for defeating LeChuck. But when you finally confront him, not only has she already rescued herself and planted a decoy, she's also obtained a jar of ghost-destroying voodoo root beer on her own! Clearly she has some knowledge of this sort of thing already.

That's not a magnificant bastard, that's a heroine who can take care of herself. In MI 1, Guybrush was on a fool's errand. If he never existed, Elaine would have made it out of her predicament just fine -maybe even better.

[Farlander]

Opening the Crossroads is why she went along with LeChuck's plan. And if she knew LeChuck could only be killed while crossing between worlds, she MUST have known that the Cutlass would not work when he wasn't doing so

Then in the name of what she would have tried to kill LeChuck in one world? (when Guybrush brings her back in human form) Just for kicks? No, she didn't know (she was told by Guybrush during the boss battle) LeChuck had to be trapped while crossing between worlds. More than that, I think LeChuck WASN'T supposed to be trapped between two worlds (more than than, he WASN'T supposed to find the gates to the Crossroads).

As far as I see it, a PROPERLY enchanced Cutlass of Kaflu should damage both body and spirit (no crossing between worlds needed). But Cutlass of Kaflu was far from properly enchanced (Guybrush with his last-second substitutes and LeChucks other doings), so it could only damage his body. The Voodoo Lady gave Morgan a sword which has Cutlass' of Kaflu missing function, but due to some... complications... (the Spirit sword being in one world, the Body sword in another), they had to strike at the same time, which is impossible while LeChuck is in one world, hence the trapping-inbetween-worlds stuff.

And I think that Elaine developed a distrust in Voodoo and Voodoo Lady in particular during ToMI, not before it. Maybe "Is THAT how the Cutlass is supposed to work?" was the beginning of this distrust.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

To those who say Elaine could never have known so much Voodoo: remember, there was a whole adventure that Guybrush and Elaine had, taking place right before TMI (what Dave Grossman jokingly called the "real" MI5 :rolleyes: ). Maybe she learned about this stuff in the course of THAT.

Also keep in mind that episode 5, where we finally learn about most of this stuff, was the one which had the most input by Ron Gilbert. Plus, Elaine was the character whose treatment in TMI Ron gave the most advice about (I recall reading this in an interview somewhere).

TMI is clearly bringing back Magnificent Bastard Elaine from MI1. Remember in that game you've spent much of it trying to rescue her and putting together a voodoo recipe for defeating LeChuck. But when you finally confront him, not only has she already rescued herself and planted a decoy, she's also obtained a jar of ghost-destroying voodoo root beer on her own! Clearly she has some knowledge of this sort of thing already.

Also, consider that Elaine giving the ring to Guybrush means she probably knows how he'll use it. And if she knows that, she surely expected him to enter the Crossroads (bodily, of course, so he could use the physical ring). Opening the Crossroads is why she went along with LeChuck's plan. And if she knew LeChuck could only be killed while crossing between worlds, she MUST have known that the Cutlass would not work when he wasn't doing so!

To say that Elaine learned a lot about Voodoo in between TMI and EMI is a cop out. If that were true, then it would have been mentioned at some point during the adventure. We can only assume that Elaine's knowledge of voodoo has not increased. Maybe TOMI season 2 will confirm that theory but we'll have to wait until then.

What does Ron Gilbert have to do with anything? Sure he gave some input into TOMI but it's not like his influence makes your theory any more valid. In terms of Elaine obtaining voodoo root beer, I think you forget that Guybrush finally destroys LeChuck at the end of Secret with plain root beer from the vending machine. She hardly needed advanced knowledge of voodoo to spray ghosts with normal root beer.

Elaine did not know that Le Chuck had to be killed in between worlds, Guybrush has to tell her. She clearly had little knowledge of what Le Chuck had planned. Elaine could have given the ring to Guybrush for many different reasons - maybe she gave the ring to Guybrush to trick Le Chuck into thinking that he was succeeding in slowly seducing her, which clearly was a goal of his from early on in the adventure. At the end of Episode 1, Elaine was looking disinterested, but immediately became happy when Le Chuck showed up. She clearly was acting in front of him. She was following along, and she may have thought that her ring was inconvenient. This theory is not likely, but it is about as plausible as your theory.

[ATMachine]

On further consideration, Kijin and farlander, you bring up excellent points! I have had to amend my theory based on this.

You both point out that Elaine herself shows surprise at the Cutlass's failure, that she tries herself to stab LeChuck with it in Rise, and that Guybrush has to tell her how to defeat him. Which means that Elaine DOES NOT know at first the Cutlass won't work, nor does she know that she has to open the Crossroads to kill him. (I was wrong on that bit.)

But Elaine obviously has come to despise the Voodoo Lady by Rise. She must have realized that the Voodoo Lady is up to no good at SOME point. Plus, she mentions in two scenes that the Esponja Grande quest with Nice Human LeChuck was all for Guybrush's benefit. Most likely, Elaine figured out that, once La Esponja Grande (which the Voodoo Lady had told Guybrush to obtain) had absorbed all the Pox, then LeChuck would simply steal the sponge and absorb its voodoo power. She knew that the Voodoo Lady must know this, too.

Elaine also gives Guybrush her ring. She knows it'll be important for something. But what? Even if she doesn't know Guybrush has to "cross over" to kill LeChuck, she probably DOES at least know that wedding rings would have major protective significance in voodoo spells, given the powerful love they embody. She wanted Guybrush to be magically safe should anything happen to him. As it indeed did.

EDIT: Hey guys, I updated the first post with this revised theory, so go have another look!

[BeeKay84]

Wow, I love how everything ATMachine posted makes perfect sense. Really, it does.

[Con]

Not trying to be smart or anything but...k so Elaine planned to kill Lechuck physically but she didn't know Morgan too was dead, eh? So she was counting in that Guybrush would kill LeChuck in 'the other side', right?
But what if Morgan had never went after Guybrush's hand in chapter 4 and still lived? That'd have left LeChuck vs. Guybrush alone in the afterlife. How Guybrush would have killed Lachuck? He was barely able to move as a zombo. I doubt Elaine expected him to kill Lechuck just like that. Or am I missing something essential?

[ATMachine]

Wow, I love how everything ATMachine posted makes perfect sense. Really, it does.
Which version? I revised my initial Theory of Everything in TMI to incorporate clues mentioned by other posters, at about the same time you posted this message. Sorry! :o

[Kroms]

The fact that Elaine's masterplan is finally set in stone when she realises she has to become a demon - that she trusts Guybrush to pull her out of it and save her - makes her somehow even more awesome than she was. Props to the writers.

Revised version is pretty good. Can't see many flaws in it.

[BeeKay84]

Not trying to be smart or anything but...k so Elaine planned to kill Lechuck physically but she didn't know Morgan too was dead, eh? So she was counting in that Guybrush would kill LeChuck in 'the other side', right?
But what if Morgan had never went after Guybrush's hand in chapter 4 and still lived? That'd have left LeChuck vs. Guybrush alone in the afterlife. How Guybrush would have killed Lachuck? He was barely able to move as a zombo. I doubt Elaine expected him to kill Lechuck just like that. Or am I missing something essential?
As ATMachine said, Guybrush (being alive) would've entered the Crossroads (the spiritual side) and attacked LeChuck from there. No need for Guybrush to die, just go through the rip and attack LeChuck, at the same time she did from her side.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

On further consideration, Kijin and farlander, you bring up excellent points! I have had to amend my theory based on this.

You both point out that Elaine herself shows surprise at the Cutlass's failure, that she tries herself to stab LeChuck with it in Rise, and that Guybrush has to tell her how to defeat him. Which means that Elaine DOES NOT know at first the Cutlass won't work, nor does she know that she has to open the Crossroads to kill him. (I was wrong on that bit.)

But Elaine obviously has come to despise the Voodoo Lady by Rise. She must have realized that the Voodoo Lady is up to no good at SOME point. Plus, she mentions in two scenes that the Esponja Grande quest with Nice Human LeChuck was all for Guybrush's benefit. Most likely, Elaine figured out that, once La Esponja Grande (which the Voodoo Lady had told Guybrush to obtain) had absorbed all the Pox, then LeChuck would simply steal the sponge and absorb its voodoo power. She knew that the Voodoo Lady must know this, too.

Elaine also gives Guybrush her ring. She knows it'll be important for something. But what? Even if she doesn't know Guybrush has to "cross over" to kill LeChuck, she probably DOES at least know that wedding rings would have major protective significance in voodoo spells, given the powerful love they embody. She wanted Guybrush to be magically safe should anything happen to him. As it indeed did.

EDIT: Hey guys, I updated the first post with this revised theory, so go have another look!

I agree with everything you said in this post. My last post sounded belligerent, and I just wanted to apologize to you and clarify that I do respect all the great work you've done in coming up with this theory. There are a lot we don't know but I don't think any amount of discussion can solve them yet. Hopefully the remaining loopholes will be solved in the second season, which I am anticipating.

[alkapel]

That's a perfect explanation!! Good job ATMachine!!!

[monkey_05_06]

I feel this pretty well summarizes Tales, but I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread...:confused:...were people really that lost as to the storyline that somebody has to spell it out for them like this?

No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.

I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?

[sharper]

I feel this pretty well summarizes Tales, but I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread...:confused:...were people really that lost as to the storyline that somebody has to spell it out for them like this?

No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.

I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?

I found it difficult to follow, but I feel it all depends on how you go about playing it. If you go through and talk to everyone about everything, of course you will get the whole picture. But honestly, there were some parts of these chapters I found boring and just wanted to run through quickly hoping that something more interesting would arise.

I actually haven't read through all of this original post yet, I've been meaning too, but with exams going I technically shouldn't even be browsing this forum. But once I do read it I plan on responding to it, and I will say then whether or not this post was necessary. As of right now I think it is.

[Opa-Opa]

Very nice.

You completely forgot about the fact that Elaine was too poxed to be following any agenda, probably somewhere by the end of Leviathan. That too, combined with the "Belt Buckle of Smiley Skull" could've clouded her judgement about LeChuck's plan.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I feel this pretty well summarizes Tales, but I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread...:confused:...were people really that lost as to the storyline that somebody has to spell it out for them like this?

No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.

I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?

If the plot were easy to follow, then there wouldn't be a three page thread about it. You should also keep in mind that this isn't the only thread dedicated to discussing the ToMI plot. You appear to be among the minority of people who understood the entire plot without explanation. For most of us, it was too vague, and way too much was left up to the player to solve. If someone was like me, and didn't think to analyze ToMI, as I assumed it would have had a simple plot. Curse, Secret and Escape all had easy to understand plots that required very little analysis. Le Chuck's Revenge was more complicated, but you could still enjoy the plot without having to do any analysis. I never thought I would ever say this, but if a large portion of the ToMI fan community has been unable to piece the story together, then Telltale may have failed to properly present the story in the game.

[sharper]

If the plot were easy to follow, then there wouldn't be a three page thread about it. You should also keep in mind that this isn't the only thread dedicated to discussing the ToMI plot. You appear to be among the minority of people who understood the entire plot without explanation. For most of us, it was too vague, and way too much was left up to the player to solve. If someone was like me, and didn't think to analyze ToMI, as I assumed it would have had a simple plot. Curse, Secret and Escape all had easy to understand plots that required very little analysis. Le Chuck's Revenge was more complicated, but you could still enjoy the plot without having to do any analysis. I never thought I would ever say this, but if a large portion of the ToMI fan community has been unable to piece the story together, then Telltale may have failed to properly present the story in the game.

I don't mean to spam but... thank you... thank thank thank thank thank you.

Now that I'm done jabbering.. I will say a story is allowed to be complex, I love complex inter-twining stories. But if not presented in an appropriate manor, a complex story can come off as convoluted and conflicting. No differently than coming up with a great speech, but the speaker that reads it only reveals bits and pieces of it, perhaps not at the most appropriate of times.

[Pryftan]

Hey so..

I know there's been plenty of theories already about Elaine's relationship with voodoo in this thread, but.. what do you think of this one? (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14038)

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Hey so..

I know there's been plenty of theories already about Elaine's relationship with voodoo in this thread, but.. what do you think of this one? (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14038)

His theory revolves around the Voodoo Lady claiming that Elaine doesn't believe in Voodoo. He takes this to mean that Elaine is either controlled by Voodoo or she controls Voodoo.

Both theories are difficult to evaluate. Although Elaine seems to be tricked by LeChuck's voodoo belt, but it is interesting to note that when Guybrush wears it in the Thieves Guild, Guybrush seems to have some measure of control over what the person believes. The Voodoo Belt doesn't control somebody persay, but it definitely influences them - it makes them far more relaxed than they would be normally. When a large amount of Voodoo energy is pumped into her, she seems to lose all control - I don't think she would willingly have sprayed Guybrush with rootbeer, when she knows that it kills ghosts. Elaine tries to maintain her independence when being influenced by Voodoo, but she relies on Guybrush to help her when she cannot control it.

The second theory, that Elaine somehow controls Voodoo is a bit of a reach. If that were true, then I guess Elaine would be the pirate God, but I don't see any evidence for that. The power of the ring has been discussed in great detail in other threads, and nobody is sure exactly what the power of the ring is. There are a lot of unanswered questions still about ToMI, but I somehow doubt that Elaine can control all Voodoo around her.

[Pryftan]

His theory revolves around the Voodoo Lady claiming that Elaine doesn't believe in Voodoo. He takes this to mean that Elaine is either controlled by Voodoo or she controls Voodoo.

Both theories are difficult to evaluate. Although Elaine seems to be tricked by LeChuck's voodoo belt, but it is interesting to note that when Guybrush wears it in the Thieves Guild, Guybrush seems to have some measure of control over what the person believes. The Voodoo Belt doesn't control somebody persay, but it definitely influences them - it makes them far more relaxed than they would be normally. When a large amount of Voodoo energy is pumped into her, she seems to lose all control - I don't think she would willingly have sprayed Guybrush with rootbeer, when she knows that it kills ghosts. Elaine tries to maintain her independence when being influenced by Voodoo, but she relies on Guybrush to help her when she cannot control it.

The second theory, that Elaine somehow controls Voodoo is a bit of a reach. If that were true, then I guess Elaine would be the pirate God, but I don't see any evidence for that. The power of the ring has been discussed in great detail in other threads, and nobody is sure exactly what the power of the ring is. There are a lot of unanswered questions still about ToMI, but I somehow doubt that Elaine can control all Voodoo around her.

Well it's not meant to be conscious. Sure, if Elaine could just control voodoo she'd be the pirate God. The idea is a representation of the way voodoo flows around her, really. People who exhibit a great deal of independence can sometimes divert it's flow just by standing still.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Well it's not meant to be conscious. Sure, if Elaine could just control voodoo she'd be the pirate God. The idea is a representation of the way voodoo flows around her, really. People who exhibit a great deal of independence can sometimes divert it's flow just by standing still.

Huh. So Elaine could be unconsciously controlling Voodoo, eh? That's a theory I won't touch with a 10 foot pole until the second season begins. I'm already confused enough as it is. Although you raise a good point - the game never explicitly stated who the 'Pirate God' was. Le Chuck, Guybrush, Elaine and Morgan are all possible candidates, because all four of them came into contact with powerful Voodoo magic throughout fifth episode.

[Pryftan]

Huh. So Elaine could be unconsciously controlling Voodoo, eh? That's a theory I won't touch with a 10 foot pole until the second season begins. I'm already confused enough as it is. Although you raise a good point - the game never explicitly stated who the 'Pirate God' was. Le Chuck, Guybrush, Elaine and Morgan are all possible candidates, because all four of them came into contact with powerful Voodoo magic throughout fifth episode.

ATMachine's summary in this thread is completely satisfying apart from Elaine and Morgan's motivations. I'm sure LeChuck was the "Pirate God" for his brief consumption of the Crossroad's vague "power". I'm just trying to explain Elaine's motivations and I think her relationship with voodoo is central to why she does what she does.

Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

ATMachine's summary in this thread is completely satisfying apart from Elaine and Morgan's motivations. I'm sure LeChuck was the "Pirate God" for his brief consumption of the Crossroad's vague "power". I'm just trying to explain Elaine's motivations and I think her relationship with voodoo is central to why she does what she does.

Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.

On the first part, I agree - but to be fair the game neither states what a 'Pirate God' is, nor does it state who the Pirate God is. Apparently only a shitload of Voodoo power is needed to become the God of Pirates - but after Le Chuck absorbed the power of the Crossroads, he didn't seem all that different. Granted, he stopped time but he always has had a ton of voodoo energy. Elaine's motivations are unclear, but I doubt Telltale is going to tell us anything aside from the fact that she was motivated by her love for Guybrush, which is true but vague.

Morgan took a fascinating turn at the end of Chapter 5 - it'll be interesting to see if she becomes the new villain. If so, we may see a new twist on an old concept - the main villain may be lusting after Guybrush, instead of Elaine this time around.

[flying sheep]

no, please not.
i like morgan and i don’t want her to lose her newfound friendship with guybrush. cite:
“i wold like to go pirate hunting again – present company excluded, of course”

[Pryftan]

no, please not.
i like morgan and i don’t want her to lose her newfound friendship with guybrush. cite:
“i wold like to go pirate hunting again – present company excluded, of course”

When Guybrush greeted her with "Hey, you!".. I was really happy. They finally made peace.

And then wtf with the ending.

It's not that it's not interesting, and I'm glad she's back, it just cheapens her whole redemption arc to have her help with reviving LeChuck. Who killed her!

[Giant Tope]

To be perfectly fair, I don't think she full comprehends what she's done.

[Pryftan]

To be perfectly fair, I don't think she full comprehends what she's done.

Well she has to know that instead of just letting the dude die, she's keeping him around in some sense, right? But it's not just that, it's also that her character development and relationship to Guybrush didn't leave me thinking that she'd abandon him after he sacrifices his life to defeat LeChuck just so she could return to the world of the living. She sacrificed her freedom so he could escape, and then later on just leaves under the assumption that bar a miracle (which is essentially what happened) Guybrush would be trapped in the Crossroads forever! It doesn't add up for me.

[thatdude98]

very good sum up.

[Kamagawa]

I think It is partly true. Yes Gubrush and LeChuck are sworn enemies, But Elaine always has a back-up plan in every monkey island game (except when you give her the cursed ring in MI3). The ring in ToMI is the curse removing ring from MI3 and lets be honest, Guybrush will always need all the help that he can get (therefor he needs the ring more than Elaine).

I think the Voodoo lady's goals have something to do with the TRUE secret of monkey island. I don't buy the robot-monkey idea from MI4.

I am a bit sad that the island of monkey island was never shown.

[Bagge]

The rewritten text seems pretty reasonable to me.

[doggans]

Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.

Well, it's not her fault. She gave up her independence. (Even though she claimed it was her reputation.)

[VeronicanPlay]

So very true it makes perfect sense.

What about at the beginning of the game when in the voodoo Lady's hut you see a chest, was that LeChuck's chest with the informass Belt buckle?

Just saw this wasn't answered, and I know it might be a little late. But that chest also called Chest of Foreshadowing, appears in a chapter before chapter 5. It appears in the Sixth Sense part of the sponges Feast of the Senses.