Elaine vs Morgan

[Hisham]

I am just confused .. the writers seem to have favored Morgan with a better role (better looks too) and Guybrush should still prefer Elaine

I mean why are they directing us to love Morgan against Guybrush's will.

and Please don't tell me Elaine had a master plan.She had 5 chapters to do any good ,and she didn't

:confused::confused::confused:

Reminder : Guybrush is not married to Elaine anymore

(this is my first post , how come "Guybrush" is not added to Dictionary)

[Kroms]

Elaine does have a master plan (read this (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14102)). And it's her actions, her complete trust and love of Guybrush, as well as the fact that she's so kickass and independent, that make her so lovable. Morgan's a tough shell with a broken interior, though that's her charm as well.

I guess people really liked her because she was a fan of Guybrush, though by Chapter Four Elaine shows you how much she actually loves Guybrush. I'm much more of an Elaine/Guybrush shipper than a Guybrush/Morgan shipper. Elaine kicks just as much as ass as Morgan, but wins over for 1. being Guybrush's wife, and 2. how much she trusts him (which Morgan doesn't; remember how disappointed she was in Leviathan).

[yoothattack]

Im seriously in love with Morgan.

[PedsterUK]

TBH, I didn't sit through the credits in the first 2 Chaps, it was Murray in Chap3 that persuaded me to for the rest - and if I didn't, I'd guessed that Morgan was still dead

[tredlow]

Reminder : Guybrush is not married to Elaine anymore

Guybrush was only mostly dead. As long as he still clings to a single shred of life, the marriage is still good, no matter what Le Chuck says.

[sharper]

Am I the only one that felt Morgan was everything Elaine should have been? Apart from her abrupt spurts of acute depression?

Morgan was more developed than any other character in this series, so I can see why so many people felt drawn to her, myself included. I felt myself cling onto the only thing that I understood in the game, and that was Morgan.

TTG obviously has been encouraging this bond, as I don't think all that dialogue comparing Morgan to the dangerously aggressive, socially outcast Manatee would have been there. And also in 5 when Elaine turns on you, that seemed to be more encouragement to trust Morgan. My reaction was like WTF, and at that point I felt it was a big blow into the credibility and likable-ness of Elaine. Like a axe coming down on her head.

I'm fairly certain Morgan and Guybrush will end up as a couple, even though Elaine could have still been developed further in this series and recovered from this shipwreck of a marriage.

[doodo!]

Guybrush was only mostly dead. As long as he still clings to a single shred of life, the marriage is still good, no matter what Le Chuck says.

Kind of the point of the entire series. ELAINE IS THE LOVE OF GUYBRUSH'S LIFE!

And writers don't have bias, writers lol don't favor anyone. They were just messing with your head, hisham.

For alot of people their penises...^

[Giant Tope]

I'm fairly certain Morgan and Guybrush will end up as a couple, even though Elaine could have still been developed further in this series and recovered from this shipwreck of a marriage.

Wait, wait, wait. Since when did Guybrush ever stopped loving Elaine and liked Morgan more than just a good friend? When did they even have marital problems? In the ending, they seemed to cement the fact that Guybrush and Elaine's marriage is the most important thing to them.

[doodo!]

Wait, wait, wait. Since when did Guybrush ever stopped loving Elaine and liked Morgan more than just a good friend? When did they even have marital problems? In the ending, they seemed to cement the fact that Guybrush and Elaine's marriage is the most important thing to them.

That's how I feel too, which everyone damn well knows by now. It was the ring that tied Guybrush to the material World. Seems to be the point of the entire franchise. Every game mostly about Elaine...

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Guybrush was only mostly dead. As long as he still clings to a single shred of life, the marriage is still good, no matter what Le Chuck says.

The whole 'till death do you part' bit is legal - it's not as if Elaine would have stopped loving Guybrush if he had died. The ring didn't represent their marriage, so much it did the love that Elaine and Guybrush shared. That's what brought Guybrush back to the land of the living. That, and he had a good travel agent.

[flying sheep]

@all elaine-fans:
i understand you and why you like elaine better. but if elaine had a master plan, she made it the exact moment as guybrush first steps on the planks of leckucks ship as a ghost. there is proof that she had not planned it all. (her being poxed and out of her mind most of the time is one of the best proves)

[Giant Tope]

I don't think Elaine planed out everything from the begining either (she's really good at improvising in situations as it seems), but that doesn't really change the fact that Guybrush prefers Elaine.

I'm not even saying this because I like Elaine more than Morgan. I actually like them both for different reasons. I'm just pointing out what is shown storywise.

[Adon]

Count me as one of those who thinks Elaine had a plan, but not the elaborate 'master plan' that required a great deal of foresight. IMO, she came up with her plan on the spot on LeChuck's ship.

I do agree in part though that Morgan is overall portrayed more sympathetically in Tales. The big thing is that there's never a doubt at any moment that it's Morgan talking, while with Elaine there are numerous factors that are making her responses questionable (the pox, influence from the belt buckle, demon possession). I really do think that the game would have benefited from showing us Elaine's more charming side rather than taking for granted that she loves and cares for Guybrush. There are moments, mostly in the end, where this shows through, but much of the time it's not readily obvious.

[PecanBlue]

Elaine did have a plan from the beginning, it just didn't go exactly as she had wanted, so she improvised near the end. What was she going to do, just stand there?

I'm getting a little annoyed by all this devil's-advocate-filled Elaine hate. It's like we're so charmed by the little pretty-face Guybrush fan, we justify everything SHE does and then make up completely not true stuff to make the wife seem bad. It's a shame people can't properly enjoy the Elaine development that was clearly there because of this.

[sharper]

Wait, wait, wait. Since when did Guybrush ever stopped loving Elaine and liked Morgan more than just a good friend? When did they even have marital problems? In the ending, they seemed to cement the fact that Guybrush and Elaine's marriage is the most important thing to them.

Well I guess that is true, I guess I said that more because my love of Elaine died with this series. Guybrush seems to be blindly in love with Elaine, and may never break up with her no matter what. But I really feel like Elaine stabbed him in the back, I don't care that her mind was clouded or not. If you don't consider her spraying him with the rootbeer to be betrayal, her whole lame 'I had a master plan and didn't warn you of anything I suspected' seems like something that could be problematic for their marriage in the future.

[Giant Tope]

"Hey, LeChuck, can you plug your ears for a sec? Oh hey, Guybrush, I'm gonna pretend to betray you for a while so LeChuck would trust me and I can get the cutlass, okay? Don't take it too hard, alright?"

[PecanBlue]

"Sure Elaine, I'm so stressed right now I wouldn't have noticed my wife I've known for ten years was acting so I really needed you to tell me that, thanks."

[sharper]

So you guys are telling me she never had an opportunity to tell him her suspicions when she was alone with him on spinner cay?

[PecanBlue]

What suspicions? Voodoo Lady?

[techie775]

Well I guess that is true, I guess I said that more because my love of Elaine died with this series. Guybrush seems to be blindly in love with Elaine, and may never break up with her no matter what. But I really feel like Elaine stabbed him in the back, I don't care that her mind was clouded or not. If you don't consider her spraying him with the rootbeer to be betrayal, her whole lame 'I had a master plan and didn't warn you of anything I suspected' seems like something that could be problematic for their marriage in the future.

The best I can take it with Elaine is that the sponge's powers made her suduced by LeChuck's powers. If I remember correctly once the sponge is taken away from the equation, the glassy look in Elaine's eyes goes away and she's ready to stab LeChuck in the back. Guybrush is shocked when Elaine squirts him with rootbeer and is ready to give up, but Morgan tells him she must be under LeChuck's spell. I don't think Elaine had a master plan, just an idea of what might happen. If Elaine was perfect, she wouldn't have put on a cursed wedding ring and not seen that Charles L. Charles was LeChuck. She is human....

[Naxos]

Am I the only one that felt Morgan was everything Elaine should have been? Apart from her abrupt spurts of acute depression?

Morgan was more developed than any other character in this series, so I can see why so many people felt drawn to her, myself included. I felt myself cling onto the only thing that I understood in the game, and that was Morgan.

TTG obviously has been encouraging this bond, as I don't think all that dialogue comparing Morgan to the dangerously aggressive, socially outcast Manatee would have been there. And also in 5 when Elaine turns on you, that seemed to be more encouragement to trust Morgan. My reaction was like WTF, and at that point I felt it was a big blow into the credibility and likable-ness of Elaine. Like a axe coming down on her head.

I'm fairly certain Morgan and Guybrush will end up as a couple, even though Elaine could have still been developed further in this series and recovered from this shipwreck of a marriage.

I absolutely feel the same.

Elaine gets on my nerves to no end.

[pluizig]

To me, Elaine's betrayal was much more cruel than Morgan's.

[PecanBlue]

Explain. What betrayal are you talking about? There was no betrayal, Guybrush just interpreted it to be that way.

[sharper]

To me, Elaine's betrayal was much more cruel than Morgan's.

I agree. Especially since Morgan at least seemed to redeem herself, where as Elaine hmm. Yes she fought lechuck for guybrush, but who is to say she did it for guybrush? Even if guybrush could have fought him, Elaine would have still fought LeChuck for her own sake to escape. She has proven throughout this series that her interest is that of her own first before anyone elses. The only thing I see is that she may have given Guybrush her ring to protect him, and that seemed more of a lucky guess rather than doing everything in her power to help him.

[pluizig]

Just watch her first scene in Rise of the Pirate God.

'I've been playing along with your evil scheme the entire time, but did you really need to kill Guybrush for that?'

I know she supposedly had a "Master Plan" (tm), but the casualness of that remark broke my heart.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Just watch her first scene in Rise of the Pirate God.

'I've been playing along with your evil scheme the entire time, but did you really need to kill Guybrush for that?'

I know she supposedly had a "Master Plan" (tm), but the casualness of that remark broke my heart.

I think you are forgetting that she cooperated with Le Chuck to spare Guybrush's life. Elaine implies that Le Chuck promised her that he would not kill her husband if she cooperated. She did cooperate, but Le Chuck betrayed her. She was doing it to protect Guybrush. Elaine didn't want Guybrush to die.

She never really did betray Guybrush - she let Le Chuck transform her into a demon so she could get her hands on the sword, because she thought that the sword would have enough power to kill Le Chuck. What she did not know is that Le Chuck needs to be killed in both on the spiritual realm and the physical realm, which is where her plan went wrong.

[pluizig]

I know I know, but she just doesn't seem to... care. Like I said, it's the casualness in tone and the words she chose. I interpreted her emotions as 'Yeah, whatever.'

[PecanBlue]

I agree. Especially since Morgan at least seemed to redeem herself, where as Elaine hmm. Yes she fought lechuck for guybrush, but who is to say she did it for guybrush? Even if guybrush could have fought him, Elaine would have still fought LeChuck for her own sake to escape. She has proven throughout this series that her interest is that of her own first before anyone elses. The only thing I see is that she may have given Guybrush her ring to protect him, and that seemed more of a lucky guess rather than doing everything in her power to help him.

Good gravy, are you kidding me? There's a difference between just not plain liking Elaine and plot morphing in your favor to make her look bad. Let me get this straight, the whole plan with Voodoo Lady which inevitably led to the events of Rise of the Pirate God was for her own benefit and not Guybrush's? "Oh sure, let me go through all this trouble just to simply boost my own ego, something that's never been in character for me in any of the games; it's only Guybrush that has any involvement with the Voodoo Lady and not me, but nevermind that."

Just watch her first scene in Rise of the Pirate God.

'I've been playing along with your evil scheme the entire time, but did you really need to kill Guybrush for that?'

I know she supposedly had a "Master Plan" (tm), but the casualness of that remark broke my heart.

In the underworld Guybrush was told a lot of time might have gone by after his death, and Elaine isn't going to be bawling about it forever, though she still seemed broken up about it. Her line was more anger directed toward LeChuck.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I know I know, but she just doesn't seem to... care. Like I said, it's the casualness in tone and the words she chose. I interpreted her emotions as 'Yeah, whatever.'

By that point in the story, Guybrush had been dead for a few months, and Elaine had been captured by Le Chuck for a while. Guybrush was dead for a long time. Elaine did show emotion when Le Chuck first stabbed Guybrush - she nearly broke down into tears as Guybrush died in her arms. Months later, she is still angry and upset but she has accepted his death. She still grieved him but she didn't break down every time his name was mentioned.

[pluizig]

I quickly played the sequence again just now. Elaine's exact words are:

"Look, I let you capture me and I played along with your stupid 'Nice Guy' act because I thought that it would get Guybrush to realise that the Voodoo Lady --"

Uhm... Elaine? How 'bout TELLING Guybrush -for example on Spinner Cay when you were alone together- that you don't trust the Voodoo Lady instead of jeopardising his, your, and everyone else's safety by letting LeChuck get his way?

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I quickly played the sequence again just now. Elaine's exact words are:

"Look, I let you capture me and I played along with your stupid 'Nice Guy' act because I thought that it would get Guybrush to realise that the Voodoo Lady --"

Uhm... Elaine? How 'bout TELLING Guybrush -for example on Spinner Cay when you were alone together- that you don't trust the Voodoo Lady instead of jeopardising his, your, and everyone else's safety by letting LeChuck get his way?

If my memory serves me correctly, Elaine did try to warn Guybrush in Chapter 2, but the warning was vague and did not make a lot of sense. Guybrush had no idea what she was talking about, and just seemed to ignore her concerns. Unfortuantely, ToMI is up to interpretation, primarily due to the fact that Telltale failed at storytelling. As far as I can tell, Elaine tried to warn Guybrush about the Voodoo lady but for reasons that escape me, she was unable to be explicit about it, and Guybrush was unable to figure it out.

[PecanBlue]

It could have also been that the voodoofied belt was clouding her judgment, since she was trusting LeChuck with it and all, or she could have been too preoccupied with the current Merfolk situation, but who really knows since anything to do with the Voodoo Lady wasn't fully explained and left up to interpretation and/or to be explained another time.

[Novotnus]

. Unfortuantely, ToMI is up to interpretation, primarily due to the fact that Telltale failed at storytelling.

I don't belive they failed - I take it as a promise for more MI to come than bad storytelling - they gave too many clues that wouldn't be given if it wasn't part of some greater plan.
And, mind you, Ron had some impact on writing RotPG.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I don't belive they failed - I take it as a promise for more MI to come than bad storytelling - they gave too many clues that wouldn't be given if it wasn't part of some greater plan.
And, mind you, Ron had some impact on writing RotPG.

There is a difference between leaving some questions unanswered and failing to explain crucial aspects of the story. Some parts of ToMI were not explained, and should not have been explained - the Voodoo lady's involvement, for example, should be left for the second season of ToMI. What Morgan's deal with the Voodoo lady was should also be kept secret until Season 2.

But by the end of Rise, it is clear that Elaine had some plan, but the game only implies what that plan was. The player is never told why she becomes a demon; granted, we can guess her motives but we shouldn't have to extrapolate a character's motives, it should be obvious. Nobody quite understands what the significance of the ring was, or why Elaine gave it to Guybrush. Again, we can take a guess, but the fact that we have to argue about its significance on a forum is a clear indication that the Telltale team failed to properly explain it in their story.

I am also looking forward to the second season of ToMI, but when a game revolves around that story, and when a significant portion of your audience has no idea what the details of that story is, there is either a problem with the fanbase or with the game itself.

[PecanBlue]

I can agree with you on the ring, since I myself thought it was weird that Elaine and Winslow so confidently expect him to come back fully restored right on the SCREAMING NARWHAL. I mean I guess I can understand she knows the ring will come in handy at the crossroads so she gives it to Guybrush as a secure measure, but I was expecting more of a "oh Guybrush you used the ring and came back, yay, I was so worried *cry-face*" reaction not a "HAHA YESSS YOU CAME BACK I WAS TOTALLY EXPECTING YOU BECAUSE MY PLAN IS FLAWLESS. *smug-face*" Then again, this is the series where you have to poison yourself to get into a crypt and hope you don't really die, so maybe I shouldn't question the logic thinking of the characters, but whatever.

The whole "demon bride" thing though, I thought was obvious. LeChuck is talking about the cutlass and Elaine has that thinking face and that "Hmm!" realization and then immediately asks him to make her his DEMON bride. I thought piecing the implications together (Morgan makes it obvious too) was easy enough, or at least by the end where you see her come back to normal.

[Novotnus]

But by the end of Rise, it is clear that Elaine had some plan, but the game only implies what that plan was. The player is never told why she becomes a demon; granted, we can guess her motives but we shouldn't have to extrapolate a character's motives, it should be obvious. Nobody quite understands what the significance of the ring was, or why Elaine gave it to Guybrush. Again, we can take a guess, but the fact that we have to argue about its significance on a forum is a clear indication that the Telltale team failed to properly explain it in their story.

My guess would be that Elaine's doing was part of Voodoo Lady's plan. Elaine seems to know many things that Guybrush learns during the adventure (LeChuck's true intention, way to escape Crossroads, thing that happenes to zaped ghosts). She had to learn it somehow and I guess it was Voodoo Lady - they surely had some conversation before or during Tales and they don't seem to like each other after that.
Ring significance is quite easy:
- Courage - most of Guybrush's adventures and dangers he must face are concentrated around helping \ saving Elaine.
- Guide - as above, love guides him (like: "Don't put your lips on anything" : )
- Anchor - as marriage "chains" them, keep them in one place together.
- Sacrifice - as they both sacrifice part of their independence to becoma a couple, and Elaine sacrificed the ring to Guybrush (what bothers me is "Sacrifice that cannot be undone").
And it's all put in ring.
So only thing left to be explained is: how Elaine knew Guybrush will need this spell.

[LowMoralFiber]

Not even the ending of the Season can bring a halt to the never-ending battle that is Morgan and Elaine!

But then again, why should it?

Tales did too good of a job of making people like Morgan, and not enough of making them like Elaine! I thought the last episode would rectify this, but... It didn't really.
I liked Elaine better when she was poxed!

[light_rises]

I liked Elaine better when she was poxed!

Heeeeey, does this mean you're secretly attracted to LeChu—*KO'd by poxed hand*



Actually, I have something constructive to say here—really!—but I'm still putting my thoughts together.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

My guess would be that Elaine's doing was part of Voodoo Lady's plan. Elaine seems to know many things that Guybrush learns during the adventure (LeChuck's true intention, way to escape Crossroads, thing that happenes to zaped ghosts). She had to learn it somehow and I guess it was Voodoo Lady - they surely had some conversation before or during Tales and they don't seem to like each other after that.
Ring significance is quite easy:
- Courage - most of Guybrush's adventures and dangers he must face are concentrated around helping \ saving Elaine.
- Guide - as above, love guides him (like: "Don't put your lips on anything" : )
- Anchor - as marriage "chains" them, keep them in one place together.
- Sacrifice - as they both sacrifice part of their independence to becoma a couple, and Elaine sacrificed the ring to Guybrush (what bothers me is "Sacrifice that cannot be undone").
And it's all put in ring.
So only thing left to be explained is: how Elaine knew Guybrush will need this spell.

Except that's just speculation. All Guybrush does is repeat the instructions and says, 'Clever.' then puts the ring up to his nose and it works. There is more to the spell than you are letting on. Guybrush has stood in the centre with the ring previously, and nothing happened. Yet raising the ring to his forehead suddenly changes the spell? The point is players shouldn't have to speculate about the significance of the ring - the characters should tell you what that significance is. Yeah the significance was easy for you but many players were lost. That is why there have been multiple threads in which the significance of the ring was discussed. A lot of what you assume to be true is the result of speculation and guesswork - and we are forced to do this because the game does not make it clear.

This could also be the difference of opinion. Others might interpret Chapter 5's vagueness to be proof of it's depth - the game is so deep that it requires interpretation and analysis. I am of the opinion that no video game storyline should require any form of interpretation, especially not in ToMI, where the first three chapters, and the first half of the fourth chapters were more reminiscent of Curse's cartoonish style, than of the serious dark style evident in Secret and Le Chuck's revenge. The fact that ToMI makes a sudden shift in atmosphere is to its detriment in my opinion, as if a player did not closely analyze every episode previously, they will not know what the hell is going in in the fourth and fifth episode. I admit I am in this category, but I am not the only person - there have been many people on this forum that has expressed the same opinion.

[Falanca]

Except that's just speculation. All Guybrush does is repeat the instructions and says, 'Clever.' then puts the ring up to his nose and it works. There is more to the spell than you are letting on. Guybrush has stood in the centre with the ring previously, and nothing happened. Yet raising the ring to his forehead suddenly changes the spell? The point is players shouldn't have to speculate about the significance of the ring - the characters should tell you what that significance is. Yeah the significance was easy for you but many players were lost. That is why there have been multiple threads in which the significance of the ring was discussed. A lot of what you assume to be true is the result of speculation and guesswork - and we are forced to do this because the game does not make it clear.

This could also be the difference of opinion. Others might interpret Chapter 5's vagueness to be proof of it's depth - the game is so deep that it requires interpretation and analysis. I am of the opinion that no video game storyline should require any form of interpretation, especially not in ToMI, where the first three chapters, and the first half of the fourth chapters were more reminiscent of Curse's cartoonish style, than of the serious dark style evident in Secret and Le Chuck's revenge. The fact that ToMI makes a sudden shift in atmosphere is to its detriment in my opinion, as if a player did not closely analyze every episode previously, they will not know what the hell is going in in the fourth and fifth episode. I admit I am in this category, but I am not the only person - there have been many people on this forum that has expressed the same opinion.

The thing is, the power of voodoo may be relying on the thoughts of the user and the importance of usage of the voodoo ingredients to that user.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

The thing is, the power of voodoo may be relying on the thoughts of the user and the importance of usage of the voodoo ingredients to that user.

Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.

In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.

[Falanca]

Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.

In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.

You can't alter your thoughts that well, you need to have something in your hands to make it change your thoughts. And you know, "thinking about things" is a really risky thing when it comes to make a spell using that power. It's about BOTH the thoughts AND the concrete ingredients. You can't use a voodoo item if you don't believe it.

Love is a feeling you know, a gathering of multiple thoughts.

[Eduardo]

Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.

In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.

Wouldn't the Love thing complement the Voodoo spell? Mere Voodoo by itself couldn't resurrect him fully, it needed to be aided by... the power of love (I can't write this without hearing Huey Lewis in my head).

[One-Eyed Kijin]

You can't alter your thoughts that well, you need to have something in your hands to make it change your thoughts. And you know, "thinking about things" is a really risky thing when it comes to make a spell using that power. It's about BOTH the thoughts AND the concrete ingredients. You can't use a voodoo item if you don't believe it.

Love is a feeling you know, a gathering of multiple thoughts.

Emotions are not important in voodoo. As I recall, in Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady clearly says that Voodoo does not have the power to bring someone back to life - that a force GREATER than Voodoo was required. Although it has been a few days so I may be misquoting it.

Guybrush had given up his last strand of life to defeat Le Chuck, so he was truly dead. Voodoo no longer had the power to resurrect him. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of his marriage ring. The point of that scene was that the love shared between Guybrush and Elaine is MORE powerful than Voodoo. It's the old cliche that Love Conquers All.

This notion that emotions are an integral part of Voodoo is entirely revisionist. The Voodoo Lady has never stressed that emotions are important in Voodoo at all - she also never tells Guybrush to 'search his feelings' so to speak. In fact, even in the Fifth Episode of ToMI, the game never explicitly states that emotions are a necessary part of Voodoo. If the game does not explicitly state something as fact, then it is mere interpretation - which means Telltale can and probably will change the interpretation to fit whatever story they decide to go with for Season 2.

Edit Sorry Eduardo I didn't see your post. The Voodoo Lady said that a power GREATER than Voodoo would be required to resurrect Guybrush. Love therefore must be a force that is SEPERATE to Voodoo and stronger than it. So emotions are not a crucial part of Voodoo.

[Falanca]

Then... Everyone who loves someone is immortal?

Using the power of voodoo is special, everyone can't be guided for it after all. Using the power of love to make voodoo spells more powerful may be the case in this one. I think Voodoo Lady couldn't use the power of love after the disappearance of DeCava, so it's impossible FOR HER to add this in her spells so she may be completely avoided this aspect while talking.

Emotion of believing voodoo or emotion of loving someone is all feelings, and can be used to improve voodoo I believe. You can't ressurrect yourself by only love, that'd mess things up a lil.

[light_rises]

Emotions are not important in voodoo. As I recall, in Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady clearly says that Voodoo does not have the power to bring someone back to life - that a force GREATER than Voodoo was required. Although it has been a few days so I may be misquoting it.

Guybrush had given up his last strand of life to defeat Le Chuck, so he was truly dead. Voodoo no longer had the power to resurrect him. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of his marriage ring. The point of that scene was that the love shared between Guybrush and Elaine is MORE powerful than Voodoo. It's the old cliche that Love Conquers All.

This notion that emotions are an integral part of Voodoo is entirely revisionist. The Voodoo Lady has never stressed that emotions are important in Voodoo at all - she also never tells Guybrush to 'search his feelings' so to speak. In fact, even in the Fifth Episode of ToMI, the game never explicitly states that emotions are a necessary part of Voodoo. If the game does not explicitly state something as fact, then it is mere interpretation - which means Telltale can and probably will change the interpretation to fit whatever story they decide to go with for Season 2.

To be fair, I'm about to speak from both a conjectural/speculative and a philosophical viewpoint ... but I find it funny that you're only referring to "emotions." I don't think of love that way, at least not singly so. Emotions, like feelings of affection and passion, can change at the drop of a hat. In my eyes, love requires demonstrable action—even when one isn't feeling particularly "loving" at the moment—in order to have real, lasting meaning. So we're not talking about Guybrush bringing himself back to life because he possessed the ring, recognized its significance, and had a case of the warm and fuzzies; that ring represents everything he's done for Elaine's sake, and what Elaine has done for him. Couragous acts. Guidance. Being each other's anchor. Sacrifice. All of these have been demonstrated just in ToMI alone. Isn't accomplishing all that, realistically speaking, much more difficult than a "basic fetch quest"?

Just to be clear, I totally agree that emotions being an intregal part of Voodoo sounds more like revisionist conjecture than legitmately adding to the lore. But then Guybrush didn't get out of being dead by simply wanting to hard enough, IMO.

Edit Sorry Eduardo I didn't see your post. The Voodoo Lady said that a power GREATER than Voodoo would be required to resurrect Guybrush. Love therefore must be a force that is SEPERATE to Voodoo and stronger than it. So emotions are not a crucial part of Voodoo.

Maybe so, but I don't see how that would prevent love from using Voodoo as a conduit in order to complete the spell (just as a purely speculative example, of course). Perhaps "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean hanging the rules when it comes to the minutae. I can see how that would grate in an "Occam's Razor" sort of way, but then this wouldn't be the first time something had to be accomplished in a roundabout way in a Monkey Island game. :)

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Then... Everyone who loves someone is immortal?

Using the power of voodoo is special, everyone can't be guided for it after all. Using the power of love to make voodoo spells more powerful may be the case in this one. I think Voodoo Lady couldn't use the power of love after the disappearance of DeCava, so it's impossible FOR HER to add this in her spells so she may be completely avoided this aspect while talking.

Emotion of believing voodoo or emotion of loving someone is all feelings, and can be used to improve voodoo I believe. You can't ressurrect yourself by only love, that'd mess things up a lil.

I have tried to base my interpretation in as much evidence from ToMI as I can. I respect your opinions on this, but it's difficult to talk about Voodoo as an abstract concept, considering its make believe. I'd rather talk about what the characters in ToMI have said about Voodoo, because that is the only real way of coming to any sort of sensible conclusion.

In terms of your point about Decava - maybe, but I don't see where in ToMI they have hinted at that. After playing through Episode 5, voodoo makes no sense to me, one way or the other - the issue of emotion and resurrection has complicated voodoo, and that isn't something that has been dealt with. My point isn't that I am right and you are wrong - it's that the game is not clear on which theory is correct. So either of us could be right, which is a shame. In any case, I think both theories are ridiculous - because both completely change the nature of Voodoo. I seem to recall the Voodoo lady saying in an earlier game that emotions interfere with Voodoo magic, but I'm not too sure. Can anyone else actually remember what the Voodoo Lady said about voodoo? I seem to recall her going on a rant about it in the second chapter of Curse, but I could be wrong.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

To be fair, I'm about to speak from both a conjectural/speculative and a philosophical viewpoint ... but I find it funny that you're only referring to "emotions." I don't think of love that way, at least not singly so. Emotions, like feelings of affection and passion, can change at the drop of a hat. In my eyes, love requires demonstrable action—even when one isn't feeling particularly "loving" at the moment—in order to have real, lasting meaning. So we're not talking about Guybrush bringing himself back to life because he possessed the ring, recognized its significance, and had a case of the warm and fuzzies; that ring represents everything he's done for Elaine's sake, and what Elaine has done for him. Couragous acts. Guidance. Being each other's anchor. Sacrifice. All of these have been demonstrated just in ToMI alone. Isn't accomplishing all that, realistically speaking, much more difficult than a "basic fetch quest"?

Just to be clear, I totally agree that emotions being an intregal part of Voodoo sounds more like revisionist conjecture than legitmately adding to the lore. But then Guybrush didn't get out of being dead by simply wanting to hard enough, IMO.



Maybe so, but I don't see how that would prevent love from using Voodoo as a conduit in order to complete the spell (just as a purely speculative example, of course). Perhaps "more powerful" doesn't necessarily mean hanging the rules when it comes to the minutae. I can see how that would grate in an "Occam's Razor" sort of way, but then this wouldn't be the first time something had to be accomplished in a roundabout way in a Monkey Island game. :)

Sorry for the double post, but I didn't see light_rises post, and this will probably be a long one again. I'm not going to get into a debate on the nature of love, and quite frankly I don't think it should be necessary when the topic of conversation is a video game. You are right - Guybrush didn't just get out of the Crossroads by 'thinking too hard' - but the game SEEMS to suggest that the only force strong enough to resurrect Guybrush is love. I cannot accept that Guybrush was brought back to life by a Voodoo spell when, after possessing the body of a dead bird, the Voodoo Lady explicitly states that no voodoo spell is powerful enough to do so. Now maybe I'm not remembering her line correctly, which is a possibility, but unless you can provide evidence from ToMI that clearly demonstrates love to be an integral part of Voodoo, then I will be forced to conclude that the power of the ring is completely separate to the voodoo spell. Maybe it has something to do with the pirate God - I have no idea. My biggest problem is that the game is not clear, and I would like some form of explanation - preferably in the second season.

Well speaking of a round-about manner, the more we argue the less clear this matter becomes. The ring as a symbol of Elaine and Guybrush's love does make sense, but it also contradicts what the Voodoo Lady said earlier in that chapter. In terms of the 'power' of love using voodoo as a conduit, if 'love' really was a greater and more powerful force than Voodoo, then presumably it would not require Voodoo.

ToMI is most similar to the Curse of Monkey Island for most of it, in my view. The Curse of Monkey Island was a great game, but it was like a cartoon. That's what the ending of ToMI reminds me of. I'm not saying I like this interpretation, but for me it seems the most sensible, based on the fifth episode.

I will say this about Monkey Island, however. There hasn't been a single Monkey Island game that has had a good ending in my view, and in every episode there are always metaphysical concepts that make absolutely no sense, so this could just be part of the Monkey Island tradition. :p

[Pryftan]

I'm not sure why love augmenting voodoo can't be considered "a power beyond that of voodoo", like VL said. Guybrush satisfied the recipe of the spell in a more complete and symbolic way than the literal way of just dumping an anchor in the center of the crossroads. It's not revisionist; voodoo spells in monkey island have always been directly proportional to the quality of the ingredients, from Largo's toupee and bra leading to a short-range voodoo doll, to fake, non-fizzy root beer creating the Pox of Lechuck. It's another take on that idea.

[Falanca]

I'm as confused as anyone, just trying to back my interpretion up. Well, the possibilities are just too much. I just want to know that there IS a living sense how the ring caused Guybrush come back to life.

[GaryCXJk]

I'm not sure why love augmenting voodoo can't be considered "a power beyond that of voodoo", like VL said. Guybrush satisfied the recipe of the spell in a more complete and symbolic way than the literal way of just dumping an anchor in the center of the crossroads. It's not revisionist; voodoo spells in monkey island have always been directly proportional to the quality of the ingredients, from Largo's toupee and bra leading to a short-range voodoo doll, to fake, non-fizzy root beer creating the Pox of Lechuck. It's another take on that idea.

To add to that, love is infinite, and that's why the ring, the symbol of the love between Guybrush and Elaine, didn't disappear after being used for the spell.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I'm as confused as anyone, just trying to back my interpretion up. Well, the possibilities are just too much. I just want to know that there IS a living sense how the ring caused Guybrush come back to life.

Believe me, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think there is a lot of evidence to support my interpretation, but I hate the idea of the power of 'True Love' resurrecting Guybrush. It is way too simple of a solution for a plot that is so complicated. I just hope that the Developers read this thread and threads like it, and decide to actually reveal the truth, because from where I stand nobody has any clue.

[Giant Tope]

It's pretty obvious that the ring represents all four of the ingredients, as well as intense emotional significance. That's all that's needed to tell the story. If you're still confused as to why it happened, then thats simply your problem.

It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.

[Falanca]

It's pretty obvious that the ring represents all four of the ingredients, as well as intense emotional significance. That's all that's needed to tell the story. If you're still confused as to why it happened, then thats simply your problem.

It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.

Don't "I know it, you don't, you're bunch of idiots" to me. I know that, most of us know, but the question was "Why couldn't Guybrush use the ring before?". The more you know.

[flying sheep]

well, it seems that guybrush’s love to elaine is

a sacrifice she made to him (giving up a part of her independance)
an anchor for him (he knows he can always trust her – he just wavers a bit when she willingly becomes lechucks demon bride)
a guide for him (his life was pretty aimless until he found her)
encouraging him (when she’s not poxed she tells him she needs him and he is a grat guy)

so the ring, symbolizing this, can be used as a beefed-up crossroads-opener
plus it already is a mighty artifact being able to remove a strong curse (gold statue)

PS: and please stop talking about marriage. marriage is an anachronistic relic of times where you had to bind two strangers together in a bond they won’t break even if they hate each other. then the church tried to change it into a symbol for heterosexual love between two people. why does anyone need it to express any kind of love. the ring cold be a stone or a tree if we were under natives on another caribbean island.

[Giant Tope]

Don't "I know it, you don't, you're bunch of idiots" to me. I know that, most of us know, but the question was "Why couldn't Guybrush use the ring before?". The more you know.

Because he didn't have it with him?

and i wasn't meaning to call you an idiot, so im sorry if thats what it sounded like

[One-Eyed Kijin]

It's pretty obvious that the ring represents all four of the ingredients, as well as intense emotional significance. That's all that's needed to tell the story. If you're still confused as to why it happened, then thats simply your problem.

It's a game trying to tell a story, not a voodoo text book.

No it's not 'pretty obvious'. If it was, there wouldn't be multiple threads about this issue. It's not simply 'my' problem - the ending has confused many people.

Why you may ask? Because the ending is vague and they never clearly state ANYTHING. What you just said is an interpretation. Guybrush implies this to be true. The fact still remains that when Guybrush retrieved the voodoo belt buckle, the Voodoo Lady told Guybrush that to resurrect him would require something far more powerful than 'mere' voodoo. That 'something' is love. I have said repeatedly that is how I remember the conversation - I could very well be wrong about it. Until somebody corrects me however, I will continue to use that as my primary argument.

You are right, it is a game - a game that fails to tell a story because it seemingly contradicts itself. In the end, ToMI is like every other Monkey Island game for me - great game, bad ending.

Edit: The argument is not about what the ring represents - it's about the power of the ring. We all know what it represents.

[Giant Tope]

Well if implications isn't good enough for you as proof, then there's really nothing else that can be said. They did explain it in the game to the point that it wasn't just saying: "Oh, this wedding ring works because it represents my marriage which has all four of the spell components. Clever."

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Well if implications isn't good enough for you as proof, then there's really nothing else that can be said. They did explain it in the game to the point that it wasn't just saying: "Oh, this wedding ring works because it represents my marriage which has all four of the spell components. Clever."

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. Yes, the ring does represent all four of the spell components. This has led to the theory that the ring completed the Voodoo Spell. This is a valid theory.

It is also true that the Voodoo Lady said that mere voodoo could never resurrect a human being once that human being has given up the last strand of life, and that something more powerful is required. Guybrush did give up his last strand of life and truly died. Therefore, according to the Voodoo Lady, Voodoo could not have brought Guybrush back to life. This is a valid theory.

These two theories co-exist with one another - but they are mutually exclusive. They are contradictory theories that are both supported by evidence from the plot. That is 'my problem', as you derisively called it.

[Giant Tope]

I'm pretty sure that at that point, we're reading way too much into it and we're missing the important point.

[Falanca]

Ah, to hell with it, it's not like we can go any further from there. Tope's kinda right, there is no point in having an argument like this.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

I'm pretty sure that at that point, we're reading way too much into it and we're missing the important point.

Well quite frankly I think they intended for us to read into it. Ron Gilbert apparently had a lot of influence in the fifth episode, and after playing it I don't doubt that rumour - the ending to ToMI is reminiscent of Le Chuck's Revenge, in that nothing is clear (to me at least).

But I'll bite - what do you think the important point is?

[Rather Dashing]

It works because it has the voodoo spell ingredients, it works because it's love. You can "interpret" this as much as you want, but it's really kind of foolish. It's using love to accomplish the same thing.

All Guybrush did was, well, what he always does. He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.

"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.

[Giant Tope]

The progress and growth of the characters that we've come to know for so many years (in my case, it's about eight months ago ), as well as the some of the new.

But maybe that's just me.

Edit:Aaaand Rather Dashing once again writes a comprehensive answer that trumps mine. Haha XD

[Pryftan]

Voodoo spells in monkey island have always been directly proportional to the quality of the ingredients, from Largo's toupee and bra leading to a short-range voodoo doll, to fake, non-fizzy root beer creating the Pox of Lechuck. It's another take on that idea.

He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.

"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.

Yeah I think this is pretty much everything.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

It works because it has the voodoo spell ingredients, it works because it's love. You can "interpret" this as much as you want, but it's really kind of foolish. It's using love to accomplish the same thing.

All Guybrush did was, well, what he always does. He replaced the Voodoo ingredients with a wordplay equivalent. Except, instead of as in other cases(where the concoction was anywhere from disastrous to "just as good"), his replacement was far more powerful because it represented something a good deal more spiritual than tossing together ingredients like a shopping list.

"Why" it works from a MECHANICAL standpoint is unimportant and, really, seems like it's missing the point entirely. But still, I wouldn't say "augmented voodoo" is the right way to put it. It's doing the same thing, with a similar process, with a far greater force. Voodoo might be involved on the most basic level, but the real "oomph" comes from the symbolic significance of the ring.

This is hardly in-depth interpretation. You are suggesting that this discussion really doesn't matter, which is fair I suppose, but I still think that if they're going to resurrect Guybrush using some mixture of love and voodoo, they should be clearer.

Eh, Guybrush wasn't doing what he normally does - it was literally his only hope. It was a last ditch effort that miraculously payed off. In case it hasn't been obvious, my central criticism is that the significance of the ring only became clear right before it was needed. I think that's sloppy story-telling, but at the end of the day, it is just my opinion.

Heh, 'mechanical'. I'm not expecting a manual. As far as I'm concerned, if they're going to include magic, then it needs to be rational and coherent. If not, then it runs the risk of explaining every mystery. Nothing needs to be explained if it's 'magical'.

Point taken, however - this debate is meaningless, and it has gone on too long, but it has been fun anyway.

Edit: Far too often, magic is used in fantasy books as a deus ex machina. 'voodoo' did it, or 'love' did it is never a good explanation for me - as far as I'm concerned, it's bad story-telling.

[Giant Tope]

As far as I'm concerned, if they're going to include magic, then it needs to be rational and coherent.
Wait, wait, wait. What?

Point taken, however - this debate is meaningless, and it has gone on too long, but it has been fun anyway.
Oh fine.

[GaryCXJk]

Here's your in-depth explanation to why the ring alone worked fine:

It's a freaking game.

Now, even if you need to further explain this because to YOU it doesn't make sense, let me tell you what the "supposed" message is.

Love is all.

Yes, love is all. Love is all, can't you hear the call. Love IS all you need. Love IS all you need at the butterfly ball. Aside from that, it's really not that hard to come up with a link to the four ingredients. Not only is it stupid, it also shows how much you've completely missed the point of the ring.

I mean, hell, when I stood on the crossroad, I immediately knew what I had to do. The wedding ring had to be used at the circle. It was the very first I tried to do. Why? Because love is an anchor, love is a guide, love is courage, love is sacrificing something in his / her name. It really isn't hard to understand, trying to get somebody to explain it to you is like asking somebody to explain the joke to you, a joke everybody else got except for you.

Seriously, it really couldn't have been any clear, and even if it wasn't, just looking at your inventory was enough. I mean, why else did we have this ring since chapter 2? It's basically a Chekhov's gun.

[One-Eyed Kijin]

Here's your in-depth explanation to why the ring alone worked fine:

It's a freaking game.

Now, even if you need to further explain this because to YOU it doesn't make sense, let me tell you what the "supposed" message is.

Love is all.

Yes, love is all. Love is all, can't you hear the call. Love IS all you need. Love IS all you need at the butterfly ball. Aside from that, it's really not that hard to come up with a link to the four ingredients. Not only is it stupid, it also shows how much you've completely missed the point of the ring.

I mean, hell, when I stood on the crossroad, I immediately knew what I had to do. The wedding ring had to be used at the circle. It was the very first I tried to do. Why? Because love is an anchor, love is a guide, love is courage, love is sacrificing something in his / her name. It really isn't hard to understand, trying to get somebody to explain it to you is like asking somebody to explain the joke to you, a joke everybody else got except for you.

Seriously, it really couldn't have been any clear, and even if it wasn't, just looking at your inventory was enough. I mean, why else did we have this ring since chapter 2? It's basically a Chekhov's gun.

The conversation was finished, but apparently you just had to resurrect it again. Well I will respond - but unlike you I'll do so politely.

Yes, I realize it is a game. It is a very good game and one that I enjoyed, despite the fact that I disliked the ending. I came onto the forum to discuss the game because there were certain parts of it I did not understand. I got into a debate, and when it became clear that others were becoming frustrated, I decided to stop debating.

I understand that 'Love is all.' I take exception to that, however - it is a deus ex machina. Guybrush is put into a situation that he literally cannot escape, but he does so 'through the power of love.' In my opinion, this is bad storytelling.

It took me all of 10 seconds to complete the quest. I knew exactly what I had to do. I am not complaining because I was stuck - I am complaining because I don't think it is a good puzzle.

Yes, my analysis of ToMI is harsh. I am not nearly this critical while I am playing Sam and Max seasons 1 and 2. This is because these two games are comedies. ToMI started off as a comedy, but halfway through Episode 4, Morgan died - then it became serious. As soon as a story introduces drama into the mix, as far as I am concerned it becomes 'serious' and I treat the story to a higher standard. If ToMI was just intended as comedy, then I wouldn't have cared about the story - but it clearly isn't just supposed to be a funny game. If it was, then Morgan would not have been killed, Guybrush would not have been killed, and there wouldn't be all of this foreshadowing. ToMI was given a much more serious story, and I take 'dramas' more seriously than I do comedies. For example: I would never dream of analyzing the plot of any of the Naked Gun movies, but I would analyze the plot for American History X.

I have been playing adventure games all of my life. As such, I am familiar with the economy of item usage. Every item in your inventory will be used at once, and the more often you have used an item, the less likely you will need to use it. When you compare this simple fact to the goals in front of you, solving an adventure game is rarely difficult. Yet I enjoy playing them anyway. I grew up playing Monkey Island, so I do admit I have an emotional attachment to it.

I hope that I have cleared up any misunderstanding, but if you still want me to explain myself, I can.

Edit: My primary reason for debating is that I like to debate, not that I am incredibly angry and frustrated at Telltale Games.

[Novotnus]

Then why the need for specific ingredients? The Voodoo Lady has said previously that Voodoo is not something to be played with - it requires caution, and one mistake can completely change a spell.

In Episode 5, the Voodoo Lady mentions that in order to transcend Voodoo, you need something with more power. That power was LOVE. Guybrush was brought back to life by the power of love. The ring did not complete the Voodoo spell - it negated it entirely. If Voodoo required the emotions of the user, then that would negate the collection of items for a Voodoo spell, which is the basic fetch quest in every Monkey Island Game. If the only thing that Guybrush needs is emotion to complete a voodoo spell, then the Feast of the Senses was a waste of time.

Some occult theories (Crowley's "magick" for example) state that feeling, emotion is the most important part of magic. Ritual is used only to make you direct the emotion and make you belive you're doing something special, something that works.
If, just for the sake of discussion, we take that point of view - it doesn't matter what the ring represents - all that matters is what Guybrush belives the ring represents. And for Feast of the Senses - Guybrush knows it's important, but it's not crucial; and he doesn't feel anything strong about the sponge nor he doesn't do magic with his will-power, only with his strong emotions represented in the ring.