Season 3 languages? [Archive] - Telltale Games Forums

Bloody Eugene

03/14/2010, 04:47 am

How many times does this have to come up?
Telltale is a relatively small company that produces English spoken games.

Not totally true.... Wallace&Gromit were multilanguage... those were the high standard of Microsoft to have multilanguage: maybe that's the reason Telltale abandoned XBOX360 for season 3?

If the games are picked up in different country's by different publishers, they will translate them, but only AFTER they've been released a while by means of digital distribution.

It's strange that they say that they wanna spread the game to the widest audience possible, and then forget about foreign languages (Europe is not enough wide??? :D). I know it may be a problem of episodic short-time schedule... but after an episode is out they could have provided external language patch - like some fan site do - and they could sell the additional language patches to cover translations costs.
I know many Italian people who would have bought Tales if only it was in Italian... but Telltale was always faulty about translations (Wallace&gromit aside)... S&M Season 2 is scheduled to be released in MAY (!!!) after more than 2 years of waiting. Yes, I will play Season 3 before Season 2 will be released here...don't you think it's not so great?

There are so many threads about this topic, and they all end in the same way...

And there will be in future if the situation will not change. S&M and TOMI are not like Strong Bad: they have the heritage of huge brands that sold enourmously worldwide in the old days of lucasarts.... so we wanna continue to follow the games.

Avistew

03/14/2010, 05:05 am

Translations have always been released a while after the original. Okay, 2 years is a lot, but one year or so is pretty standard. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to release it all at once, that would only mean delaying the English version.
Plus they'd have to hire people for the translations or even the voicing, etc. It's much better that they focus on making games and let whoever picks it in each country take car of the translation.

Joop

03/14/2010, 05:18 am

It's not like it's an easy job dubbing something in a different language, and it's pretty expensive if you want to do it right.
I just don't think it'd be profitable for Telltale to do this.
Telltale makes games for an English speaking audience, they let the dubbing be done by local distributors.

Then there is the fact that, I think, most fans wouldn't want to play a dubbed version.
The reactions to the dubs have mostly been pretty negative, from the voice acting to the overall translations, and I'm telling you, it's gonna take a pretty good dub to get me to play it in dutch, and even then I don't think I could part with the English version.

Bloody Eugene

03/14/2010, 05:32 am

Then there is the fact that, I think, most fans wouldn't want to play a dubbed version.
The reactions to the dubs have mostly been pretty negative, from the voice acting to the overall translations, and I'm telling you, it's gonna take a pretty good dub to get me to play it in dutch, and even then I don't think I could part with the English version.

I wasn't talking about dubbing, i was talking about subtitles! And yes, I'm waiting for more then 2 years and a half to have only subtitles on Season 2 - no dubbing!!!! Is this great marketing?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to release it all at once, that would only mean delaying the English version.

No, I'm talking to release an official language patch after, even at the end of the season... but not 2 years later!

Plus they'd have to hire people for the translations or even the voicing, etc. It's much better that they focus on making games and let whoever picks it in each country take car of the translation.

When you say "let whoever picks it in each country" means that they have to give the game to someone else... so their profit is less. Why Telltale don't take the chance to produce and sell language packs and make all the profit?
That's just an idea - selling subtitles for foreign languages. IE I would buy Italian for 2.99$ at episode.... :P

Avistew

03/14/2010, 03:06 pm

When you say "let whoever picks it in each country" means that they have to give the game to someone else... so their profit is less. Why Telltale don't take the chance to produce and sell language packs and make all the profit?

Because it's not their job. They'd need to hire someone to translate it anyways (for each language) but on top of that, they probably would have no way to check if the translation is good or terrible. I doubt they speak all of these languages themselves.

It's better for them to leave these things to people whose job it actually is.

TheHutt

03/18/2010, 05:15 am

I know it may be a problem of episodic short-time schedule... but after an episode is out they could have provided external language patch - like some fan site do - and they could sell the additional language patches to cover translations costs.
And jeopardize the sale of the game rights for international distribution by cannibalizing the market? ;)

GaDo

03/18/2010, 08:02 pm

What is your problem with a few SUBTITLES in Multilanguage ???

Monekey Island and Sam & max have A LOT OF SPANISH FANS (for example) (Go to www.google.es and find spanish pages of this games). What is your problem ??

I waiting for TWO YEARS .... FU.ck ... TWO YEARS !!!!!! for a spanish subtitles for season 2 of Sam & max ...

Joop

03/19/2010, 01:19 am

Yeah, curse in your posts... Real social.
That'll bring some subtitles... :rolleyes:

GaDo

03/20/2010, 10:37 am

Hassat Hunter

03/20/2010, 10:53 am

Might be some MS employee translated those, which means TTG themselves still don't have spanish translators for their other titles (S&M, ToMI)

[/Speculation]

light_rises

03/20/2010, 11:04 am

i insist. What is your problem ??

Why (the unknown for no english speakers) Wallace & Gromitt is Multilanguage and a very famous game with a lot of fans on the world (First Monkey Island ... and Sam & Max) dont have the subtitles ??.

Its only subtitles. not a dubbed version !!

My understanding is that W&G was a special case due to XBLA's requirements. (That said, I'm not 100% sure on who actually did the subtitling. On the other hand, most [all?] of the in-game textures were altered with translations as well.)

Otherwise, Telltale's "problem" is that even with the strides they've made in the past two years, they are still a small company with limited time and resources, and who -- this is important -- make games for a primarily English-speaking audience. While subtitling may be less-resource intensive than dubbing, it's still a huge indertaking. Translation is in many ways more of an art than a science.

Will this change in the future? Probably, and I would say hopefully as well. But for now, any localization (subtitling and/or dubbing) of Telltale's non-XBLA games will have to be handled by other distributors.

GaDo

03/24/2010, 06:02 pm

My understanding is that W&G was a special case due to XBLA's requirements. (That said, I'm not 100% sure on who actually did the subtitling. On the other hand, most [all?] of the in-game textures were altered with translations as well.)

Otherwise, Telltale's "problem" is that even with the strides they've made in the past two years, they are still a small company with limited time and resources, and who -- this is important -- make games for a primarily English-speaking audience. While subtitling may be less-resource intensive than dubbing, it's still a huge indertaking. Translation is in many ways more of an art than a science.

Will this change in the future? Probably, and I would say hopefully as well. But for now, any localization (subtitling and/or dubbing) of Telltale's non-XBLA games will have to be handled by other distributors.

Ok. I understand but ...

Today 03/24/2010 we DONT HAVE a multilanguage version of Sam & Max Season 2. ¿Three years later?. We have only a Wii version launched this month (and i hate wii and i dont have the money for buy it).

In april Telltale will launch season 3. When the spanish (or german, french, etc) subtitles ??. In 2014 ??

Okey. Telltale is a small company. But they have money for launch games in PS3. Monkey Island (and Sam & max) have a LOT, yeah, A LOT OF FANS AROUND THE WORLD. Many many fans. But we dont born in Usa or England .. So.. No more Monkey Island for us. Or not Sam & Max.

Sorry. We need a solution. Do it for the fans for MANY YEARS of this games. We cant wait Three or four years for a traslated version. We only need subtitles.

Sorry for my bad english

OMA

03/24/2010, 08:37 pm

Sorry for my bad english

That's the result of you only playing translated games :D

Joop

03/25/2010, 12:08 pm

That's the result of you only playing translated games :D
Slam... Dunk... Score.

vacacionero

03/25/2010, 02:46 pm

hi! don't worry gado
ToMI was translated to spanish (and other languages) by fans who did a non official language packs.
This is not suitable for Telltale, but the fans could not wait anymore and did it their own translation

Maybe, this is the Sam and Max season 3 fate too

GaDo

03/26/2010, 07:58 pm

That's the result of you only playing translated games :D

Ok. so you speak spanish very well ....

hi! don't worry gado
ToMI was translated to spanish (and other languages) by fans who did a non official language packs.
This is not suitable for Telltale, but the fans could not wait anymore and did it their own translation

Maybe, this is the Sam and Max season 3 fate too

I know this patches. Telltalle close the topics with this patch but exists.

But. Sam & Max ??

vacacionero

03/27/2010, 07:50 am

sam and max too, why not?

TheHutt

03/29/2010, 04:39 am

Why not improve your English by playing English versions of the games? ;)

Avistew

03/29/2010, 04:45 am

Why not improve your English by playing English versions of the games? ;)

Because playing a text and story based games in a language you're not that good at is a sure way to ruin the experience.
Just imagine having to play a game in, I don't know, depending on your case, Russian or Dutch or something. I don't think you'd enjoy yourself, and once the game is finally released in your language, you've spoiled the whole story already.
And the only thing you're likely to learn to say is "no way" or "that doesn't work", because since you'll have no clue what's going on you'll just try everything with everything until something happens.

Hassat Hunter

03/29/2010, 01:33 pm

Just imagine having to play a game in, I don't know, depending on your case, Dutch or something.
That would be horrible, even if I would understand what's being said.
And it's not that bad an idea... I trained for my examens German with Fahrenheit on German, and passed! Yay!
(Note; using videogames for training may not have the same postive effect for you as it did for me)

Avistew

03/29/2010, 01:50 pm

If you want to learn a language that way, I suggest starting with something (game, book, movie...) that you're already familiar with in your own language. Otherwise you'll just get lost and it will be incredibly frustrating.

Of course, when you reach a certain level in a language, then that's okay. But it took me 5 years of English before I could read my first book in English without having to stop because I wasn't following anything at all.

Songs are better. They're short enough that you can dig up your dictionary and try to translate them.

OMA

03/29/2010, 07:25 pm

Ok. so you speak spanish very well ....

Of course I do (I'm Spanish ;)). Your point being...?

Joop

03/31/2010, 09:15 am

Because playing a text and story based games in a language you're not that good at is a sure way to ruin the experience.
Just imagine having to play a game in, I don't know, depending on your case, Russian or Dutch or something. I don't think you'd enjoy yourself, and once the game is finally released in your language, you've spoiled the whole story already.
And the only thing you're likely to learn to say is "no way" or "that doesn't work", because since you'll have no clue what's going on you'll just try everything with everything until something happens.

This is actually how I learned English. I started with Day of the Tentacle when I was 8. After that Full Throttle, Sam and Max. I just started imitating the sounds, learning the language this way. As a result I'm one of the few dutch people who can actually speak accentless English, and the games have grown on me too. :')

Avistew

03/31/2010, 10:50 am

This is actually how I learned English. I started with Day of the Tentacle when I was 8. After that Full Throttle, Sam and Max. I just started imitating the sounds, learning the language this way. As a result I'm one of the few dutch people who can actually speak accentless English, and the games have grown on me too. :')

Well I can tell you that without subtitles I would have been absolutely unable to enjoy these games. I have tried playing games in another language, it's more about pixel hunting and trying everything until it seems to work (and even then you still don't know what you said or why you had to do that), or about following a walkthrough but then you're not playing.

I'd really only recommend doing that for games you know already. But I'm glad it didn't ruin the games for you.

TheHutt

04/01/2010, 03:49 am

Just imagine having to play a game in, I don't know, depending on your case, Russian or Dutch or something.
In my case, Russian would be quite alright - I do speak it. :)

Of course you cannot start learning a language by playing games. However, if you are already learning it, it is quite a good way to extend your knowledge: get to know new vocabulary, to train how words are pronounced and, well, to find out the sense from a context.

I did learn English with X-Wing, Tie Fighter and old LEC adventures like MI2, S&M and DOTT. :)

Avistew

04/01/2010, 11:30 am

I guess for me it's a matter of what I care more about: the game or learning the language. If I care about the game I won't risk ruining some of it by playing it in a language I don't fully master.
If I care more about learning the language and don't care at all about the game, however, then yeah that would help me learn more vocabulary without a loss and could be worth it.

Vainamoinen

04/01/2010, 12:06 pm

As a linguist, and working in the field of translations, please let me draft a few postulates:

Translating games is a very natural thing to do.
Full translations, including voices, are rather expensive.
If you intend to have a full translation, it is far more intelligent to do text and voices at the same time.
No translation will ever come close to the original. It either slavishly adheres to the original text, losing much in the translation process, or it doesn't, which will undoubtedly create something very different in parts.
The conception of a "good" translation is about the most subjective thing in the world.
To actually learn English with games, your initial English language skill level has to be rather high.
Specifically, you will not actually learn the meaning of new words you encounter if you haven't got a dictionary at your side. And playing games that way... it just doesn't feel right. If you're playing without subtitles, even the dictionary might not be of help!
Playing games in a foreign language with just a few years of learning this language in school might severely strain one's patience.
Completely rejecting the idea of a translation has the air of selfishness: If someone does not speak English well enough, she or he is not deemed "worthy" to experience the game.
To look down on people less proficient in a given language is, as the sociolinguists tell us, a very universal thing to do. It is, nonetheless, quite inacceptable.

Shwoo

04/01/2010, 04:25 pm

I think your ability to learn a language from playing a game depends heavily on how old you are. Kids can be really single minded about some things, and I think would be more likely to treat the language learning as part of the game. You'd still need a dictionary, though.

That's just based on my own memories of being seven, and I'm autistic so they're probably not that applicable.

Joop

04/02/2010, 01:56 am

Let me post a few contradictions to your postulates:

No translation will ever come close to the original. It either slavishly adheres to the original text, losing much in the translation process, or it doesn't, which will undoubtedly create something very different in parts.
This is not completely true. You are right if you're talking about live action films, but cartoons... I have seen translations that have surpassed the original language. I am not about to go into detail, but there are some really really good dubs out there!

To actually learn English with games, your initial English language skill level has to be rather high.
I am living proof of the other way around. I learned English by playing Day of the Tentacle and later Full Throttle and Sam and Max when I was 8 years old. When we actually got English in school, my level of English was far greater then that of the rest of the class.

Specifically, you will not actually learn the meaning of new words you encounter if you haven't got a dictionary at your side. And playing games that way... it just doesn't feel right. If you're playing without subtitles, even the dictionary might not be of help!
I learned from the verbs in the bottom of the screen, experimenting with them and the icons of the inventory. Together they made quite the educational pair.

Playing games in a foreign language with just a few years of learning this language in school might severely strain one's patience.
Never did for me, but I do confess having a weak for pretty cartoony pictures back then (and even to this day...)

Completely rejecting the idea of a translation has the air of selfishness: If someone does not speak English well enough, she or he is not deemed "worthy" to experience the game.
While some people make it seem that way. I just don't get why you wouldn't pick up the English version if you want to play the games so badly. English is the #1 language in the world today, and almost everyone has had some lessons. My experience is that it will only improve your English. Further more, according to this forum, most of the translations for these games are pretty horrid, even screwing up the most simple of jokes and lines!

Vainamoinen

04/02/2010, 03:19 am

Let me post a few contradictions to your postulates:

Thank you, this is of course appreciated!

This is not completely true. You are right if you're talking about live action films, but cartoons... I have seen translations that have surpassed the original language. I am not about to go into detail, but there are some really really good dubs out there!

This is of course very true. I chose the words "come close to" very carefully. The best dubs are those which "surpass" and "exceed"; yet that also means that something quite different from the original is created. In many cases, that is of course an absolutely desired direction! And that also applies to Live-Action-Films - even more so...

I am living proof of the other way around. I learned English by playing Day of the Tentacle and later Full Throttle and Sam and Max when I was 8 years old. When we actually got English in school, my level of English was far greater then that of the rest of the class.

It's quite hard to accept this as a learning process. The words are somhow implying that DoTT, FT and S&M were the only English influence you needed. There must at least have been some basic knowledge of the language beforehand - or you'd be as lost as playing the game in Chinese. I can see, however, how a game one loves can imprint the vocabulary in your mind forever. After all, I'm still using the words "bustling with activity" as found in the original Amiga "Pirates!"-game. And I still know where I got that expression from...

I learned from the verbs in the bottom of the screen, experimenting with them and the icons of the inventory. Together they made quite the educational pair.

Never did for me, but I do confess having a weak for pretty cartoony pictures back then (and even to this day...)

Let's not forget that adventure games communicate more heavily through moving pictures than through text. If you're determined to play the game, you will eventually figure out the key controls. It's hardly an ideal way to learn the language; still, it's the determination and fascination with the game that makes it possible. Trial-and-error works best for toddlers, but not as well for grown-ups. Can't really say for eight-year-olds; some theories imply that the major vocabulary boost in your native language happens when you're about 14.

While some people make it seem that way. I just don't get why you wouldn't pick up the English version if you want to play the games so badly. English is the #1 language in the world today, and almost everyone has had some lessons. My experience is that it will only improve your English. Further more, according to this forum, most of the translations for these games are pretty horrid, even screwing up the most simple of jokes and lines!

The people in this forum are everything but a representative sample of the gamers of the world! In fact, to search and find this forum, let alone understand what is discussed, you are bound to have a knowledge of the English language that is far, far, far, far above average.

The average non-native English poster in this forum has undergone quite a significant education in this language. And of course, in judging a certain translation, postulate #5 always comes into play. Personally, I considered the German translation of Monkey Island 2 to be quite nice (disregarding certain spelling errors). Still, many Germans who have also played the English original despise it, because it took the liberty to replace intranslatible jokes with others. That, however, is exactly what a good translator does.

I never saw any meaning at all in the "Everyone speaks English"-argument, which has been brought up countless times in this forum. It's neither very true, nor really significant for the debate. Your native language will always be the one you will be most at ease with - exceptions are very rare. Postulate #1 means exactly that.

Nonetheless, I can see your point here to some degree. From my point of view, the translation quality has actually taken a nosedive in recent decades. Localisation efforts are greatly increasing; but doing just the voices for games seems to be far too expensive to also invest in a decent translator. Also, publishers these days do not seem to possess the competence to distinguish a good from a bad translation. Translators get paid per line in most cases, while in these areas, they should be treated more as "copy-writers" who recreate and invent. Research and thorough retinking of the jokes hardly takes place: It just doesn't fit in the schedule. Through massive experience, I can also tell you that translators somehow get conditioned to opt for a more literal translation. These are, quite unfortunately, the ones most probable to be accepted by their clients. :(

Joop

04/02/2010, 05:15 am

This is of course very true. I chose the words "come close to" very carefully. The best dubs are those which "surpass" and "exceed"; yet that also means that something quite different from the original is created. In many cases, that is of course an absolutely desired direction! And that also applies to Live-Action-Films - even more so...
In this case, agreed upon. :)

It's quite hard to accept this as a learning process. The words are somhow implying that DoTT, FT and S&M were the only English influence you needed. There must at least have been some basic knowledge of the language beforehand - or you'd be as lost as playing the game in Chinese. I can see, however, how a game one loves can imprint the vocabulary in your mind forever. After all, I'm still using the words "bustling with activity" as found in the original Amiga "Pirates!"-game. And I still know where I got that expression from...
The only English I knew at this age was from cartoons, which were usually subtitled back then. Of course I picked up some words from that, but most of it came from playing games.

Let's not forget that adventure games communicate more heavily through moving pictures than through text. If you're determined to play the game, you will eventually figure out the key controls. It's hardly an ideal way to learn the language; still, it's the determination and fascination with the game that makes it possible. Trial-and-error works best for toddlers, but not as well for grown-ups. Can't really say for eight-year-olds; some theories imply that the major vocabulary boost in your native language happens when you're about 14.
Adventure games actually communicate heavily through text too. The fun thing is that I saw a picture of (for example) a bucket, and the verb said "bucket" thus educating me that the word for "emmer" was bucket.
This is actually a really good way to learn a language, they use the same method in Sesame Street I think.

The people in this forum are everything but a representative sample of the gamers of the world! In fact, to search and find this forum, let alone understand what is discussed, you are bound to have a knowledge of the English language that is far, far, far, far above average.

The average non-native English poster in this forum has undergone quite a significant education in this language. And of course, in judging a certain translation, postulate #5 always comes into play. Personally, I considered the German translation of Monkey Island 2 to be quite nice (disregarding certain spelling errors). Still, many Germans who have also played the English original despise it, because it took the liberty to replace intranslatible jokes with others. That, however, is exactly what a good translator does.

I was actually referring to the localised versions of Sam and Max Season 1. A lot of people have complained about the translations. I've never played Monkey Island 2 in German, but I can imagine that it was translated pretty well. In the game Toonstruck, they even made different inventory objects for the different versions. I didn't like the voices in the German Dott or Sam and Max Hit the Road though.
I agree about the replacing of jokes, the best translations are the one that don't literally translate, but make a localised joke of something.

Hassat Hunter

04/02/2010, 08:14 am

I am living proof of the other way around. I learned English by playing Day of the Tentacle and later Full Throttle and Sam and Max when I was 8 years old. When we actually got English in school, my level of English was far greater then that of the rest of the class
Wait. What? Don't all kids here do that anyway? I know I did the same. Don't know about the difference between me and the rest of the class; can't remember that far back.

And I think we are a pretty good proof that
I never saw any meaning at all in the "Everyone speaks English"-argument, which has been brought up countless times in this forum. It's neither very true, nor really significant for the debate. Your native language will always be the one you will be most at ease with - exceptions are very rare.
is just plain wrong. Most people in Holland can easily be understood and get around with English, it's the French and Germans who got issues. And guess who subtitles Original versions and who dubs their movies and games. Exactly. Germans and French folks could speak English well too if they heard it more often, but the translation stuff makes it so that they only stay proficient in their own language instead of their own + english, like us Dutch people.
Really, it isn't that hard if you grew up with it anyway...

Tor

04/02/2010, 08:53 am

As a linguist, and working in the field of translations, please let me draft a few postulates: (...)
Interesting. I agree with a lot of what you are saying; and I certainly don't believe that one should look down on people for their (lack of) language skills. But...

I never saw any meaning at all in the "Everyone speaks English"-argument, which has been brought up countless times in this forum. It's neither very true, nor really significant for the debate. Your native language will always be the one you will be most at ease with - exceptions are very rare. Postulate #1 means exactly that.

True, not everybody speaks English... but everyone should speak English, if they are at all interested in any of the forms of entertainment that are dominated by the English language: Movies, TV, video games, graphic novels, table-top role playing games... even the world wide web. I think that it is in the best interests of someone who likes those forms of entertainment to become fluent in English. It baffles me every time I see a person who is really into video games for example, and yet shows no interest in learning English. Do you enjoy video games? Okay, you'll really want to learn English. Come on people!

Let me also take this opportunity to to vent some of my strong feelings on the subject of dubbing. Spoiler: I really hate it.
Most people in Holland can easily be understood and get around with English, it's the French and Germans who got issues. And guess who subtitles Original versions and who dubs their movies and games. Exactly. Germans and French folks could speak English well too if they heard it more often, but the translation stuff makes it so that they only stay proficient in their own language instead of their own + english, like us Dutch people.
Really, it isn't that hard if you grew up with it anyway...

Exactly! It's the same situation over here with regards to subtitling. I believe dubbing is a huge disservice to the viewer because it leads to considerable delays in local release dates, you don't get to properly learn English, and most importantly: it looks and sounds terrible!

Whenever I see dubbed movies and TV shows, I am appalled and disgusted. How can people live with this and think it's okay?!

I admit to being heavily biased because I live in a country where dubbing is uncommon, but that doesn't mean I'm not right! :p

I have solemnly vowed that when I become world dictator, dubbing will be punishable by death. Start practicing sooner rather than later, people!

Avistew

04/02/2010, 12:42 pm

It baffles me every time I see a person who is really into video games for example, and yet shows no interest in learning English. Do you enjoy video games? Okay, you'll really want to learn English. Come on people!

It's not always a lack of interest. It can be a lack of ability, too. Some people have trouble with some languages. I know people who are fluent in 3-4 languages but don't understand more than a few words of English, and it's not for lack of trying.

Also, you guys keep mention examples of learning English by being dumped into it. Good for you. But I grew up watching some Disney movies in English and didn't learn a single word from it. I'd watch the picture, have an idea what was going on, but nothing more.
By comparison, the ones I did see in French I can tell lines from, I remember the whole plot, etc. The ones I watch in English, even to this day when I think back, I have no clue what was actually happening, or why. I should probably watch them again.

So just because it worked for you doesn't mean it would work for everyone. The thing is, with languages, you need to actively learn. I wasn't. I was passively looking at movies or passively playing games. To learn a word, you need to want to learn it. Otherwise, you only learn "if I click the word that's located there, it does this" without ever learning what the word itself is.

I only started learning when I had both French and English so I could compare them. When I was given actual classes. I know people always talk about total immersion but I have to tell you, it doesn't always work. It requires a lot of effort. You need to WANT to learn the words, rather than play the games.
Maybe it comes more naturally to some people than others. Maybe kids tend to be curious so they want to learn. I don't know, but I just had to tell you that it doesn't always work. I guess it sometimes does, since it worked for you guys, although I have a hard time believing that you weren't surrounded by English in other ways or having someone you could ask what such and such word meant.

Tor

04/02/2010, 01:44 pm

It's not always a lack of interest. It can be a lack of ability, too. Some people have trouble with some languages. I know people who are fluent in 3-4 languages but don't understand more than a few words of English, and it's not for lack of trying.
Don't take it the wrong way, but I find it hard to believe that someone who has a proven ability to learn foreign languages and is actively trying to learn English is unable to do so.

Also, you guys keep mention examples of learning English by being dumped into it. Good for you. But I grew up watching some Disney movies in English and didn't learn a single word from it. I'd watch the picture, have an idea what was going on, but nothing more.
I certainly wouldn't make the argument that most people can just start watching Lost and learn English from that alone. Most people will need to have some kind of foundation to build on, a comprehensive English education starting in elementary school would be ideal; or some kind of language course for adults if no such education was available.

I think the point that Hassat Hunter was trying to make was the "use it or lose it" principle. In France, Germany and other European countries, students are taught English in the school system, but when they graduate they rarely use that knowledge again. They watch dubbed movies and TV shows, read translated books, only visit websites in their local language and so on. They will quickly lose all their English knowledge due to lack of use.

In countries that don't translate everything so diligently, people have a chance to actively use English every day, and will thus retain their knowledge and constantly expand their vocabulary. With the ability to understand English at a somewhat advanced level you have the option of enjoying a lot of creative works (movies, TV, videogames and so on) in the original language. The selection of media available to you increases, because you have the option of consuming media that has never been translated to your native language. The web also becomes a much more useful tool if you know English well.

Plus you get to watch movies and TV shows where lip movements actually match the voices.

Hassat Hunter

04/02/2010, 02:26 pm

Also, you guys keep mention examples of learning English by being dumped into it. Good for you. But I grew up watching some Disney movies in English and didn't learn a single word from it. I'd watch the picture, have an idea what was going on, but nothing more.
Yeah, we don't just watch them in English of course. They still get subtitled, so you know what's going on.
But while doing that, you also learn English, especially if you are young.
Get enough "exposure" as such, and you already know the basics before even getting english classes on school. Most of the kids here do. Those who struggle with English are more exception than rule...

As you said, if you are younger it's far easier to take it all in. If you got most of it before 12, it's a lot easier to learn than when you are already an adult.
I am pretty bad at learning languages after all... yet I never really had that much trouble with English.

Avistew

04/02/2010, 02:46 pm

Oh, I totally choose subtitles over dubbing, whether I know the language or not.
But subtitles are also unfair to people who can't read (either because they don't know how to or because they physically can't, such as bad eyesight or can't read fast enough).
So I like that both are equally available in France. Although I agree computer games still aren't like that very much. Console games let you choose your language though.

I think people have difficulties with different languages. I took years of German and can't speak it, I find it extremely difficult. I took two months of Japanese and did much better (although I forgot most of it now).

The only thing that annoys me is when people say things like it's specific to English. I'm glad I get to see movies in English subbed rather than dubbed, but I'm glad I also have that option for movies in Spanish, Italian, Japanese and whatever F*cking Amal or the Green Butchers were in.

I'm not going to say English isn't important, but you'd also lose a lot by learning only English or subbing only English and dubbing the rest. (Or worse, have a habit of neither dubbing nor subbing anything, and just either releasing stuff in the languages or not releasing them at all. Surely you have to see how that limits the amount of things someone can read/watch/play).

Another thing I dislike is when translations are released, but in English.
Say, a Japanese game/movie released in a non-English speaking country, in English.
If you're not translating it, can't you at least let it be the original? Either translate it in the right language or not at all. It makes no sense to give people something that's neither the original language nor the country's language.

Hassat Hunter

04/02/2010, 03:19 pm

Eh, pretty sure we keep all other languages "intact" too, but they just aren't as common as English (or, well, Dutch).

I think they do the Japanese-English translation and then shipping it over to non-english countries just to save on translation costs. Very few europeans know japanese. Thus; a translation. However, most of them do know english. So just giving them the english version saves them from having to translate them another time, for a far smaller market than the english version, which may mean loss.
Same reason TTG can translate, but doesn't itself, leaving it to foreign producers. The effort may not be worth the additional expense...

Avistew

04/02/2010, 03:39 pm

I get the why. It just worries me. I guess I'm afraid these languages are going to just vanish or something. That would be a high cultural loss.

Tor

04/02/2010, 03:45 pm

The only thing that annoys me is when people say things like it's specific to English. I'm glad I get to see movies in English subbed rather than dubbed, but I'm glad I also have that option for movies in Spanish, Italian, Japanese and whatever F*cking Amal or the Green Butchers were in.

I'm not going to say English isn't important, but you'd also lose a lot by learning only English or subbing only English and dubbing the rest. (Or worse, have a habit of neither dubbing nor subbing anything, and just either releasing stuff in the languages or not releasing them at all. Surely you have to see how that limits the amount of things someone can read/watch/play).

True, I certainly advocate using subtitling no matter what the original language is, and I oppose anything that limits availability of media. The reason why I singled out English in my examples is because it currently is the dominating language of many entertainment industries as well as the web, making it more useful to know that language than any other -- if you regularly use those forms of media. That way if you're e.g. a movie fan, you can watch all English language movies (probably the majority of the movies you watch if you live in the west) with no translation, and all other movies with subtitles.

If you're a die-hard opera fan on the other hand, English will probably be useless to you... you'll want to learn German and Italian instead. If you watch operas for hours every day (the same amount of time that many people spend in front of the TV or on the web) wouldn't it be worth the time and effort to learn those languages?

Another thing I dislike is when translations are released, but in English.
Say, a Japanese game/movie released in a non-English speaking country, in English.
If you're not translating it, can't you at least let it be the original? Either translate it in the right language or not at all. It makes no sense to give people something that's neither the original language nor the country's language.
I agree that such a situation is less than ideal. What ticks me off the most is when I can't get stuff in the original language. The other day I was looking for the classic Asterix animated movies from the sixties, seventies and eighties. It turns out that the Norwegian DVDs are dubbed in Norwegian, (they are considered children's movies, apparently. Children's stuff are the only things that are dubbed here) and do not include the original French audio tracks. I checked the UK versions, and they too appear to be English dubbed only. If people embraced subtitling over dubbing more, those DVDs would at least have included the original audio tracks as an option.

Edit: And to add insult to injury, I remember seeing a couple of those movies on TV as a child, but that was in French with subtitles... it's a bit annoying that I can't get those versions on DVD.

Avistew

04/02/2010, 04:32 pm

Tor

04/03/2010, 04:29 am

To be fair, I've been trying to get these movies too (and the Lucky Luke one) and man are they hard to find. However the versions I found (that were out of stock) all had several languages (such as this (http://www.amazon.fr/Ast%C3%A9rix-travaux-dAst%C3%A9rix-Roger-Carel/dp/B00008NF14)). If you're in Norway that'll be zone 2 so you could play them since they're made for Europe.
Hey, thanks for that. I did some further research, (dvdcompare.net (http://www.dvdcompare.net/) has good info) and it looks like four of the movies are published by Fox Pathé Europa in France, and these include French audio and English subtitles. I've ordered myself a boxset (http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B0014JKM0Y/) that includes all of the four Fox Pathé movies, hoping that my information is correct... Unfortunately three of the remaining movies are published by a different company, Paramount, and I haven't found any good information on those yet.

I do agree with the "can't find it in the original language". Here in Canada, which is a bilingual country, I'm having the hardest time finding some French things in French. It's frustrating, even moreso considering French IS an official language.
That must be be frustrating indeed... just curious, do you live in a French- or English-dominated area?

Joop

04/03/2010, 07:54 am

The other day I was looking for the classic Asterix animated movies from the sixties, seventies and eighties. It turns out that the Norwegian DVDs are dubbed in Norwegian, (they are considered children's movies, apparently. Children's stuff are the only things that are dubbed here) and do not include the original French audio tracks. I checked the UK versions, and they too appear to be English dubbed only.

You can order it from Amazon.fr. There's a version with French and English audio, and one with French, English, German and Dutch audio and subtitles.

Avistew

04/03/2010, 11:20 am

That must be be frustrating indeed... just curious, do you live in a French- or English-dominated area?

English-dominated. I've been on holiday in French-dominated areas and both French and English were available. I can totally get that English is spoken more than French here but that still get annoying.

Incidentally, every time I talk about Canada to people in French, they're confused to learn that Canadians aren't all fluent in both languages. They're all "but I thought it was a bilingual country!". It's funny, because I don't think they expect all Belgians to speak French and Dutch fluently, or all Swiss to speak French, Italian and German. So I'm not sure where they get that.

Wapcaplet

04/03/2010, 11:39 am

Western Canada is almost universally English; just about the only places you'll see French there are on government signs and product packaging.

Quebec actually abolished English as an official language back in 1974, though some government services there are available in English.

I'm pretty sure my extremely limited French language skills were picked up from reading breakfast cereal boxes during trips to British Columbia as a child.

Joop

04/05/2010, 01:19 pm

You see, you can even learn languages from a cereal box!
Are you a lumberjack by any chance, sir?

Wapcaplet

04/05/2010, 01:31 pm

Are you a lumberjack by any chance, sir?
I wish!

Leaping from tree to tree as they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia!

The giant redwood, the larch, the fir, the mighty scots pine!

The smell of fresh-cut timber! The crash of mighty trees!

With my best girlie by my side! We'd sing ... sing ... sing!

Didero

04/06/2010, 12:28 am

I get the why. It just worries me. I guess I'm afraid these languages are going to just vanish or something. That would be a high cultural loss.
This is happening a bit in Dutch. People are already using more and more English words in normal conversation here, while there's a perfectly equivalent Dutch word available, or a group of words. The pinnacle of that is the word 'efficiency', 'efficiëntie' in Dutch. The difference between the words when pronounced is just emphasising a different syllable, yet a lot of Dutch people pronounce it the English way. That really gets on my nerves.
With words like 'computer' or something it's somewhat understandable, since there's no Dutch translation for it (We could of course do what the French did and make one up, but still). But when there is a Dutch equivalent but people don't use it, I get annoyed. Usually I correct the person, if I know them. :p
It's a pet peeve of mine.

But yeah, playing English games really helps with learning the language. Like Joop and Hassat Hunter, I was better at English than the rest of my class, mostly thanks to playing games. I think English movies with Dutch subtitles helped me too, but I can't really remember that clearly.
Now I prefer English subtitles, so I can see how the few words I don't know are spelled, which makes looking them up easier. I rarely have to do that anymore though :)

Hassat Hunter

04/06/2010, 02:41 am

Now I prefer English subtitles, so I can see how the few words I don't know are spelled, which makes looking them up easier. I rarely have to do that anymore though :)
:D
Another Dutchie using english subtitles.
I only use it because I am a little hard-of-hearing for human voices though, so it's often pretty hard distinguishing them from background noise and music.

Which is why it makes me sad the Sam&Max series DVD have no subtitles, I miss several jokes because I just can't hear what's being said :(.

Didero

04/06/2010, 07:01 am

Oh, I also use subtitles because I'm afraid I might miss some jokes. The downside of that though, is that I catch myself reading too much, instead of mainly listening and watching the characters. Still, once I realise what I'm doing I can force myself to listen more.

TheHutt

04/06/2010, 09:14 am

I often catch myself that I actually need English subtitles as an additional safety net, especially when watching DVD (or playing adventure games). When there aren't any, I can do without, but I feel safer with them.

GaDo

04/09/2010, 08:23 pm

Telltale have money for launch a game in a PS3 and in a IPAD but dont have money for a spanish subtitles ??.

Common !!

Avistew

04/09/2010, 08:29 pm

Telltale have money for launch a game in a PS3 and in a IPAD but dont have money for a spanish subtitles ??.

OR they have programmers who can port games, but they don't have translators, and they focus on things they can do without hiring tons more people?

Hassat Hunter

04/10/2010, 12:10 am

OR launching it for Ipad/PS3 makes up the costs of making it, less so with a Spanish translation.

They are a business after all...

GaDo

04/10/2010, 07:58 pm

OR they have programmers who can port games, but they don't have translators, and they focus on things they can do without hiring tons more people?

Okey. The traslators are more expensive ...

really ??

Avistew

04/10/2010, 08:07 pm

Okey. The traslators are more expensive ...

really ??

That's not what I said at all. They already have the programmers. For translators they'd need to hire some, which means starting a whole hiring process. And how would they select them? They can hire new programmers because they have programmers who can tell if the people applying know their stuff or not. They can't do the same with translation teams.

Then they'd need to find translators for a bazillion languages, too. And if the games are to be dubbed, voice actors, too.

And it's just not what they do. They make games. It's like complaining to a writer that they don't release their books in more languages. They're a writer, what they do is write books. Translating is done by other people, who buy the rights to do it and do it. People from whichever country. The writer doesn't go to fetch translators. Foreign publisher contact the original publisher and ask for the right to translate the works, and then they take care of finding a translator.

So if you want the games to be translated, don't ask Telltale to take care of that. Go find a game publisher in your country and ask them. What telltale does is making them, not translating them.

Honestly, I just don't get you. Do you write letters to authors to complain their novels aren't released in Spanish at the same time? Do you write to movie studios to ask if they're working on the Spanish dub too? It's normal for the translation to be dealt with on the other hand, from the target country.

The best you can do is gather fans and get them to work on a patch like was done with Monkey Island, if that's allowed.

domba season 3

04/11/2010, 03:23 am

If you dont know English dont play game and thats your problem

Giant Tope

04/11/2010, 03:46 am

If you dont know English dont play game and thats your problem

This post is strangely ironic.

GaDo

04/11/2010, 09:27 am

This post is strangely ironic.

and stupid.

We play for MANY YEARS ALL MONKEY ISLAND and Sam & Max hit the road from lucasarts ... in spanish ...

avistew. This is discrimination. You play wallace & grommit ?. Oh yeah. its multilanguage !!. But this game is for xbox 360 (and pc). They have the money for traslators. and this game is not dubbed. Only subtitled.

You talk about a game publisher .... Okey. Today 04-11-2010 we DONT HAVE A SUBTITLED SAM & MAX SEASON 2 !!!. wtf ??. Today you have a sam & max season 3......

The novels in spanish are released in months. NOT THREE YEARS !!

The telltalle CAN MAKE A MULTILANGUAGE VERSION. they have the money, the people (wallace & grommit), the writers. But for a stupid and unknown reason we dont have subtitled versions.

Telltale made a great work with this games. But honestly i disappointed with this company and i prefer another company for this clasic and very very famous(IN THE WORLD. The world is not only usa and england !!) games.