The Epic LeChuck's Revenge Comparison Thread!

[parabolee]

I have to admit I have somewhat of a comparison fetish. I always watch those 360 vs PS3 videos and LOVE comparing HD remakes to the originals. Especially when they are of games I love (and I love Monkey Island 2 a LOT).

So I give you my "The Epic LeChuck's Revenge Comparison Thread!", please contribute as you see fit :)

Really love how this is turning out. It's so faithful that from a distance (or with a squint) you can hardly tell the difference.

My only complaint is Guybrush missing his chinstrap beard. May be some backlash from that (from me :)). Looking over the screens I really miss the chinstrap beard :(

Guybrush
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/Guybrush2SE.png

Walk animation has been bumped from 6 to 22 frames! :)
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/Guybrush-walk-compare.gif
Higher quality Flash version (http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/GuybrushSEwalk.html)

Screenshots

http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/a2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/a1g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/b2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/b1g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/c2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/c1g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/d2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/d1g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/e2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/e1g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/f2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/f1g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/g2g.jpg
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/g1g.jpg

http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-a1.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-a2.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-b1.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-b2.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-c1.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-c2.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-d1.png
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/mi2se-d2.png

More to come tomorrow when I have time.

[Fealiks]

I'm really looking forward to this :D

At first I was apprehensive about Guybrush's new sprite, but if I imagine Dom's voice over it, it seems way more promising.

[parabolee]

Yeah the first time I saw Guybrush I was not sure either. Just not how I pictured a HD version in my head.

However he's grown on me, now I think he looks great, the blonde hair and lack of beard is my only problems with it. He has stubble but in the original it looked like an actual (albiet poor) beard, especially with a noticeable tuft protruding from his chin.

If I had my way they would add a little bit of chinstrap beard to the sprite. But a minor quibble really. Other than that it looks fantastic.

[MrFerder]

Some of the new backgrounds almost looks like they could have been the original pre-computer-scanned pictures. Just perfect! And I love the swirly clouds.

[Fealiks]

Yeah the first time I saw Guybrush I was not sure either. Just not how I pictured a HD version in my head.

However he's grown on me, now I think he looks great, the blonde hair and lack of beard is my only problems with it. He has stubble but in the original it looked like an actual (albiet poor) beard, especially with a noticeable tuft protruding from his chin.

If I had my way they would add a little bit of chinstrap beard to the sprite. But a minor quibble really. Other than that it looks fantastic.

Yeah, I've thought about this too. I think that these two games are trying to stay true to the third, fourth and fifth games though, and Guybrush was still not totally mature in the third game. For this reason, a little bit of stubble, in my opinion, bridges the gap between the young teenager of MI1 and the young adult of MI3. That's just how I feel about it though, and how I justify it :p

Some of the new backgrounds almost looks like they could have been the original pre-computer-scanned pictures. Just perfect! And I love the swirly clouds.

I think they've handled the clouds well. They haven't been like "the fans want swirly Tiller clouds!! We must add them into every scene!!", they've used the technique where appropriate and subtly enough that it works as well as it did in monkey island 3.

[Teeth]

Hey, I see you managed to rip the Guybrush animation from the LucasArts website, any chance you could rip the music as well? :D I'm really getting sick of having to listen to the loud, low-quality snoring every time I want to hear the new music. :p

[PecanBlue]

I'm a little bit concerned about Elaine's Indiana Jones-looking outfit, but otherwise everything looks great!

[Fealiks]

I'm a little bit concerned about Elaine's Indiana Jones-looking outfit, but otherwise everything looks great!

I'm not.. I think it's awesome :p

[OzzieMonkey]

I don't see what you guys mean about there being no beard on Guybrush. It is there, but its just harder to see. Lucasarts aren't done with the game, so there could still be time to make it more prominent.

[Laserschwert]

Walk animation has been bumped from 6 to 22 frames! :)
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/Guybrush-walk-compare.gif

Although this might just be used on the website...

[parabolee]

Hey, I see you managed to rip the Guybrush animation from the LucasArts website, any chance you could rip the music as well? :D I'm really getting sick of having to listen to the loud, low-quality snoring every time I want to hear the new music. :p

For some reason I can't find the music?! I have all the sounds but the music is not there. I'll investigate.

I don't see what you guys mean about there being no beard on Guybrush. It is there, but its just harder to see. Lucasarts aren't done with the game, so there could still be time to make it more prominent.

Nah that's stubble! The original had a full chin strap beard. Take a look at the orignal poster. In this he just has blonde stubble, and there is no additional thickness in the chin strap region.

Although this might just be used on the website...

I highly doubt they would add all those frames of animation just for the website. LeChuck also has 22 frames, so pretty sure they have increased the animation frames for the game. Which is great because after upgrading to HD, 6 frames in a walk animation really stands out as too few.

[Laserschwert]

For some reason I can't find the music?! I have all the sounds but the music is not there. I'll investigate.
It's right here:

http://www.lucasarts.com/games/monkeyisland2/audio/website_woodtick.mp3

[parabolee]

It's right here:

http://www.lucasarts.com/games/monkeyisland2/audio/website_woodtick.mp3

Ah, not embedded in the SWF at all. Should have known to check the cache for a stand alone audio file.

Good work.

[Taller Ghost Walt]

Apparently the remake wasn't that positive to everyone in game:

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss340/tallerghostwalt/comparison.jpg

That is a peg leg, or am I just seeing things?

Anyway, I really love the style of the game, especially Guybrush looks great! Unfortunetely I don't really like the look of Elaine, at least in that screenshot... her face looks strange somehow.

[parabolee]

Apparently the remake wasn't that positive to everyone in game:

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss340/tallerghostwalt/comparison.jpg

That is a peg leg, or am I just seeing things?

Anyway, I really love the style of the game, especially Guybrush looks great! Unfortunetely I don't really like the look of Elaine, at least in that screenshot... her face looks strange somehow.

Not a peg leg, just a thing leg, you can see his foot at the bottom.

[Majus]

It's right here:

http://www.lucasarts.com/games/monkeyisland2/audio/website_woodtick.mp3

Thanks for finding this!

[Laserschwert]

Für dich doch immer, Schätzelken.

[Fealiks]

It's right here:

http://www.lucasarts.com/games/monkeyisland2/audio/website_woodtick.mp3

Thanks ^_^

[OzzieMonkey]

Nah that's stubble! The original had a full chin strap beard. Take a look at the orignal poster. In this he just has blonde stubble, and there is no additional thickness in the chin strap region.

Oh, I thought you were saying he didn't have a beard at all. It is a bit annoying that you cant really see it that much, but i hope thats just the size of the screenshot talking. Otherwise the Curse reference is lost.

[Ash735]

Apparently the remake wasn't that positive to everyone in game:

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss340/tallerghostwalt/comparison.jpg

That is a peg leg, or am I just seeing things?

Anyway, I really love the style of the game, especially Guybrush looks great! Unfortunetely I don't really like the look of Elaine, at least in that screenshot... her face looks strange somehow.

I have to say, it's like the same character now looks completely different, at least in SOMI and LCR you could tell they were the same character, the different art styles on these guys now make them look like different characters all together.

[MusicallyInspired]

Sigh.

Anyway, I never noticed before but the screen where Largo is shaking down Guybrush it looks like there's a coin falling out of his pockets. That's a neat new effect.

Also it'd be pretty twisted and misleading to go ahead and plan and draw 22 frames of animation, throw it on the promotional website, and not put it in the game. It wouldn't be impossible to implement an interpretive frame filler to fit more frames in between each classic frame of animation. Besides it says on the features list that it has feature animation quality artwork.

If that Guybrush walk cycle isn't in the game I'm going to feel very disappointed and deceived.

[Chyron8472]

One wonders how the joke in CMI will make sense about where his beard went missing, when in MI2:SE he really doesn't have one.

[MusicallyInspired]

I've always understood that the joke was that he couldn't grow a full beard.

[Fealiks]

One wonders how the joke in CMI will make sense about where his beard went missing, when in MI2:SE he really doesn't have one.

I have two things to say about this.

Firstly, I think that the CMI joke would be enhanced. I believe the line was "I used to have a really cool beard" or something like that. This would be funnier (and truer to his character/age) if the "cool beard" was actually just his first ever stubble.

Secondly, this gets around the joke at the start of LeChuck's Revenge where Guybrush says he's going after something big and the two pirates say "a beard?" (or something like that) which didn't really make sense because he already had a beard.

In fact, it's debatable whether he did have a proper beard or not. Not only does that joke suggest that he was supposed to only have stubble, but you can see in this sprite sheet (http://media.photobucket.com/image/guybrush%20sprite%20sheet/ultimeciaffb_2/Monkey%20Island/GuybrushMI2Sheet.png) that while he was sitting on the log it didn't look like he had a beard at all, and on the phatt island semi-close-up his beard looks a lot lighter and thinner than in the smaller sprite.

This is all just geeky scrutiny though, and maybe in the special editions commentary they'll reveal the elusive truth :D

[Hassat Hunter]

Wally: "You couldn't even grow a proper beard"
Guybrush: "Hey! How did you know about my growing beard attempt?"

Parafrazing slightly. I can give an accurate quote in about an hour if really needed ;).

[MonkeyMania]

Walk Cycle
MI2 6 Frames
CMI 12 Frames
MI2SE 22 Frames

[Avistew]

I always saw LCR's Guybrush as having only a stubble and pretending it was a grown-up beard. People keep making fun of him for that in the game. I think due to the limitations of the art at the time, the stubble looks bigger than it should be, and they fixed that.
So I definitely don't think it's a bad change.

[parabolee]

I always saw LCR's Guybrush as having only a stubble and pretending it was a grown-up beard. People keep making fun of him for that in the game. I think due to the limitations of the art at the time, the stubble looks bigger than it should be, and they fixed that.
So I definitely don't think it's a bad change.

I always read it as a chin strap beard was all he could grow. Which is a lame beard for a pirate. Because there is no doubt it is a real chin strap beard here, and not just stubble -

http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/Screen%20shot%202010-03-15%20at%208.31.33PM.png

[Silverwolfpet]

Wolfy has a question here: The image with Wally hanging alone, with chains... with a skeleton near the edge of the screen, in the cell... When/what is that?? I've played the game so many times...yet I don't remember that part! Is my memory failing?

And one more thing... who are all YOU PEOPLE??!

[coolsome]

Wolfy has a question here: The image with Wally hanging alone, with chains... with a skeleton near the edge of the screen, in the cell... When/what is that?? I've played the game so many times...yet I don't remember that part! Is my memory failing?

And one more thing... who are all YOU PEOPLE??!

its next to the maze if you go down halway past maze and hes hanging in a dungen and will tell you you need to get the key from lechuck chamber and he has dinky island map memoriesed

[Silverwolfpet]

Aaaaah! Yes! That's true! Man... can't believe I forgot that! Thanks!

[WeRa]

Walk animation has been bumped from 6 to 22 frames! :)
http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/Guybrush-walk-compare.gif


Awesome!! :D
Your gif is just great ^^ Can i stole it? xD

[OzzieMonkey]

Wally: "You couldn't even grow a proper beard"
Guybrush: "Hey! How did you know about my growing beard attempt?"

Parafrazing slightly. I can give an accurate quote in about an hour if really needed ;).

Wally: You? Don't make me laugh! You couldn't even grow a decent beard!
Guybrush: Hey! How did you know about my attempted beard?
Wally: Uh, pirate's intuition
Finished Curse a few days ago. Its fresh in mind.

[parabolee]

Awesome!! :D
Your gif is just great ^^ Can i stole it? xD

Of course, help yourself. If anyone wants the FLA for the high quality version, there welcome to that too. :)

http://flat-life.com/temp/monkey/GuybrushSEwalk.html

[MonkeyMania]

It's obvious that the new guybrush is a 3D model.

[MusicallyInspired]

No it isn't. It's just good animation.

[Epic Kiwi]

The most important question we need answered is whether this joke will make it into the special edition:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/FanGuy/NintendoGame.png

[Fealiks]

No it isn't. It's just good animation.

I'm pretty sure it is a 3D model. Same with the LeChuck on the lucasarts site. Maybe they all are (or maybe it is just good animation like you said - who knows?)

[Laserschwert]

I'm pretty certain that it's a 3D-model... some details give it away, like the perspective change on the cuff, the motion of the coat (which in one frame gets penetrated by his leg) and the change of lighting on his upper-arm.

[StarEye]

I don't really see why not, but I can also see them changing it to the console you're playing it on. "I don't suppose it's a Playstation/Xbox game". The PC/Mac version will stay with the original line.

[Scrawffler]

Looks to me like the new sprites were originally animated in 3D, and then rotoscoped in 2D frame by frame. It might be completely 2D or completely 3D though; whatever it is, it looks really promising.

I think they've done a great job with the artwork! Great backgrounds, and there are some fun-looking character designs too. I like what they've done with the Booty Island cannon dude (Augustus DeWaat?).

[Teeth]

The LucasArts helpline scene will be completely outdated if they leave it the way it was in the original. :p

[coolsome]

The LucasArts helpline scene will be completely outdated if they leave it the way it was in the original. :p

the loom joke was as outdated but they keept it

[Guinea]

the loom joke was as outdated but they keept it

Except Loom was re-released at the same time.

[Hamkaas]

I can't imagine why they would actually change any of the jokes, even if they seem a little bit outdated. I think they should stay true the original (lines), because it's still fun for the gamers that are familiar with Monkey Island and new gamers will learn more about that time period. Although I really liked the new background jokes in SOMI:SE, like Grim Fandango in the cave beneath Monkey Island, so I don't mind if the add something, but they should not change the game.

I just realised how good this game looked back in those days. The SE backgrounds (especially the colors) are exacly like the old ones, only less pixel-y

[Fealiks]

I'm pretty certain that it's a 3D-model... some details give it away, like the perspective change on the cuff, the motion of the coat (which in one frame gets penetrated by his leg)

This is what gave it away for me, as well as the hair-bounce to a certain extent.

If there's a clipping error then it can't NOT be a 3D model :P

[parabolee]

It's very plausible that it was a 3D model. It's a much cheaper way to animate and easier to change single things. More reason to add the chin strap beard!

Also they used 3d models in the first SE. Evident from the Guybrush flying towards screen from cannon.

[Hamkaas]

Wally: You? Don't make me laugh! You couldn't even grow a decent beard!
Guybrush: Hey! How did you know about my attempted beard?
Wally: Uh, pirate's intuition
Finished Curse a few days ago. Its fresh in mind.

Wasn't there another moment in the game where Guybrush says something like: "I used to have really cool beard... i wonder what happend to it."

[coolsome]

Wasn't there another moment in the game where Guybrush says something like: "I used to have really cool beard... i wonder what happend to it."

he askes the voodoo lady about safe hair replacment and she says your telling me didnt you have a beard last time I saw you? and he said yh I used to have..ect

[MusicallyInspired]

It's very plausible that it was a 3D model.

Not necessarily. You can get the same type of glitch with Flash animations as well. Maybe it's something a little more similar to Flash. Maybe not.

Also they used 3d models in the first SE. Evident from the Guybrush flying towards screen from cannon.

I still don't fully believe that either.

[parabolee]

Not necessarily. You can get the same type of glitch with Flash animations as well. Maybe it's something a little more similar to Flash. Maybe not.



I still don't fully believe that either.

I said plausible. Although your right, it's not 100% that the first SE used 3D models. But it looked that way.

[guitarsareboring]

I'm pretty certain the animation in the game won't be as smooth as the animation on the website. We'll see though. I don't think I'll be disappointed if I'm right.

[MusicallyInspired]

I will be. That's false advertising. Why would they make so many frames for a website that's meant to look like the new game if they're not going to use them? Like I said, it's totally possible to implement a frame-filling feature to fill in the missing frames on top of the old ones. Just takes a little math.

[MonkeyMania]

I'm pretty certain the animation in the game won't be as smooth as the animation on the website. We'll see though. I don't think I'll be disappointed if I'm right.

Don't be so naive. They would have put less frames if there were less frames. Remember, this is an upgraded SCUMM engine.

[Secret Fawful]

It's very plausible that it was a 3D model. It's a much cheaper way to animate and easier to change single things. More reason to add the chin strap beard!

Also they used 3d models in the first SE. Evident from the Guybrush flying towards screen from cannon.

I thought this way back before the SE was even released. I mentioned it but the theory was shot down; but I still think they were 3D. It just looked SO 3D I can't imagine it having been anything else, so it's nice to see I wasn't the only one.

[Fealiks]

I thought this way back before the SE was even released. I mentioned it but the theory was shot down; but I still think they were 3D. It just looked SO 3D I can't imagine it having been anything else, so it's nice to see I wasn't the only one.

I'm not sure that the sprites themselves were 3D in MI1SE, but it's much more difficult to tell because the animations aren't so smooth. LeChuck's Revenge special edition almost definitely has 3D models (which have perhaps been painted over) for the sprites. I'd be really surprised if they didn't.

[Secret Fawful]

No one can tell me this part doesn't use a 3D model. Maybe turned into a frame by frame animation, but it's rendered.

http://ui06.gamefaqs.com/1573/gfs_125254_2_155_mid.jpg

[Laserschwert]

Of course it is a 3D-model... and a crummy one too.

[Hayden]

Was that skull in the clouds in the original game?

[Scrawffler]

Kind of. But while in the SE there is a cloud shaped like a skull, in the original there's a hole in the clouds that resembles a skull. It has little details (like teeth) made out of tiny clouds.

They have made the skull more obvious in the new one though.

[taumel]

From looking at the walking cycle i would say that it's a 3d model, i mean, the left one.

[MorpheusX]

Not necessarily. You can get the same type of glitch with Flash animations as well. Maybe it's something a little more similar to Flash. Maybe not.

I still don't fully believe that either.


I laugh! I see 3D for sure...

[MusicallyInspired]

Does it really matter either way? Thanks for laughing at my expense, though. Real mature.

I still say it's not 3D. Traced 3D maybe.

[Didero]

It can't be actual 3D, since it's based on the SCUMM engine, which doesn't support real 3D. I think it's easiest for the production team to first create a 3D model of Guybrush, then model a walking animation, and then create walking sprites from that.

[MusicallyInspired]

No one can tell me this part doesn't use a 3D model.

Sure they can. It's not a 3D model. See? I just did it. :p

[parabolee]

It can't be actual 3D, since it's based on the SCUMM engine, which doesn't support real 3D. I think it's easiest for the production team to first create a 3D model of Guybrush, then model a walking animation, and then create walking sprites from that.

That's what everyone means. Nobody is suggesting the game will use a real 3D in game model.

[taumel]

It can't be actual 3D, since it's based on the SCUMM engine, which doesn't support real 3D. I think it's easiest for the production team to first create a 3D model of Guybrush, then model a walking animation, and then create walking sprites from that.

Let's say you build a certain model, paint/uv it, rig it, set up the lightning, animate it and finally render those frames out, maybe doing some post processing afterwards. Still it's a 3d model they used.

[Didero]

That's what everyone means. Nobody is suggesting the game will use a real 3D in game model.
I was just summarizing, to prevent people from talking past each other.
Let's say you build a certain model, paint/uv it, rig it, set up the lightning, animate it and finally render those frames out, maybe doing some post processing afterwards. Still it's a 3d model they used.
They used a 3D model, yes, but there's no 3D model in the game.
So everybody's right! :p

[taumel]

I might be wrong but i thought that it was quite clear that we were only talking about if the gfx are based on a 3d model. I guess no one really expects 3d models walking around in SCUMM, at least i wouldn't. *<(:O)

[Nosehair]

This screenshot made me notice something else:



http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss340/tallerghostwalt/comparison.jpg



There seems to be a relic of the old low-resolution image in the background here - in the edge between the building and the sky, left of the pirate's nose. In MI:SE these effects were all over the place, but this is the first time I've noticed it in MI2:SE (which I agree looks great otherwise - they obviously made a real effort this time).

[parabolee]

This screenshot made me notice something else:



There seems to be a relic of the old low-resolution image in the background here - in the edge between the building and the sky, left of the pirate's nose. In MI:SE these effects were all over the place, but this is the first time I've noticed it in MI2:SE (which I agree looks great otherwise - they obviously made a real effort this time).

Well spotted, took me a while to see that even with you pointing it out. Hopefully they will be very rare and as hard to spot as this one in this one.

[apenpaap]

It can't be actual 3D, since it's based on the SCUMM engine, which doesn't support real 3D. I think it's easiest for the production team to first create a 3D model of Guybrush, then model a walking animation, and then create walking sprites from that.

IIRC they did Stan like this in Escape.

[Didero]

But Escape was entirely in 3D, since it was made in the GrimE engine, so there would be no need for the last step, the creation of sprites. Every character was 3D in that game.

[apenpaap]

IIRC they had to do it like that with Stan because of his jacket. I could be wrong, though.

[Didero]

Oooh, right, now I understand what you mean. Reading comprehension fail >_>

I haven't played Escape in a long time, so it could be done like that. It seems like a whole lot of trouble to go through though.
They could also have made his jacket transparent, and place a static image behind it. I don't know though.

[floweroftheforest]

Although this might just be used on the website...

I'm not keen on his walk in that animation.
It looks a bit girly!:eek::D

[Avistew]

I personally don't get how it could be easier to make a 3D model then paint over it rather than paint directly without spending ages making a 3D model first.
Or do they have that much trouble with perspective that they need to "cheat" for their drawing to be accurate?

[petethepanda]

They better fix the walk cycles this time. The much smoother walking animation looks like ABSOLUTE CRAP when he's gliding instead of walking.

[MusicallyInspired]

It's actually faster to make a 3D model, animate it, and touch it up later than to draw animation frames from scratch. And cheaper.

And the walk animations look fine. Honestly, you guys, you're way too critical of a good thing. It's NOT "pure crap" it's a heck of a lot better than the (already more than pleasant) animations from the first remake. So much whining....

[Fealiks]

It's actually faster to make a 3D model, animate it, and touch it up later than to draw animation frames from scratch. And cheaper.

And the walk animations look fine. Honestly, you guys, you're way too critical of a good thing. It's NOT "pure crap" it's a heck of a lot better than the (already more than pleasant) animations from the first remake. So much whining....

I don't see anyone complaining..?

[Laserschwert]

The advantage of making a 3D-model and animating it, you only have to do it once (at least for a certain animation). So after modeling, you animate a walk-cycle, and then you can render it from the necessary perspectives... front, back, left, right. Plus, you can make the animation smoother, as you can see with Guybrush. Getting that kind of fluidity with a hand-drawn animation (at that detail and resolution) is possible, but WAY more work. Plus, you'd have to draw him from all four sides (although with symmetrical characters, you can just mirror the left view to get the right view).

And I like the new Guybrush 1000x times than in the first SE. I would've loved him more, if he was a bit closer to Purcell's artwork, but still. Plus, I still have to see how good he works once voiced by Dom.

[Avistew]

The advantage of making a 3D-model and animating it, you only have to do it once (at least for a certain animation). So after modeling, you animate a walk-cycle, and then you can render it from the necessary perspectives... front, back, left, right. Plus, you can make the animation smoother, as you can see with Guybrush. Getting that kind of fluidity with a hand-drawn animation (at that detail and resolution) is possible, but WAY more work. Plus, you'd have to draw him from all four sides (although with symmetrical characters, you can just mirror the left view to get the right view).

But didn't you say the models were painted on? Doesn't that mean that each view had to be painted over the model, making it as much work to draw, but with a huge extra step of creating a model first?

[Laserschwert]

But didn't you say the models were painted on? Doesn't that mean that each view had to be painted over the model, making it as much work to draw, but with a huge extra step of creating a model first?
I didn't say that. Someone else did. But they're not painted on (what is called Rotoscoping). Just modeled, textured, animated, rendered. Simply put.

But if they did rotoscope the characters, it still would be less work, because a lot of the work would be basically tracing. And tracing doesn't take as much time as drawing from scratch (and looks cleaner, when based on an animated 3D-model or a filmed person).

But no, no rotoscoping here.

[Fealiks]

But didn't you say the models were painted on? Doesn't that mean that each view had to be painted over the model, making it as much work to draw, but with a huge extra step of creating a model first?

Personally, I don't think the models were rotoscoped. If they were, though, then it is still less work overall. The artists wouldn't need to figure out the perspectives, movements, etc., before drawing the characters.

When illustrators are drawing a human (and usually any other living thing), they sketch out a skeleton first (which I like to call a doll since they generally look more like dolls than skeletons :P) so that they have something to work from when they actually draw the character. This would be the same concept.

[Avistew]

Weird, I never thought it was less work that way.
I mean, it seems that since they've switched to making 3D movies instead of 2D ones movies are released less often. So I assumed it took longer and was more work.

I guess I understand the switch if it's actually easier. Then I can finally say it: I like 3D adventure games/movies a lot less than 2D ones. I avoided saying that because I thought it was more work, and it's always hard telling people "you're working more, but you realise it looks a lot less good, right?".
But if it's less work, I finally can speak my mind! Thanks guys.

[Fealiks]

Laserschwert and I are actually the same person.

[Laserschwert]

Fealiks and I are actually the same person.

Edit: Oops, double-post... kinda :D

[MonkeyMania]

Simple: 3D models converted into 2D sprites.
End of Story.

[Hassat Hunter]

Weird, I never thought it was less work that way.
I mean, it seems that since they've switched to making 3D movies instead of 2D ones movies are released less often. So I assumed it took longer and was more work.
3D movies are more work than 2D movies (and sofar, no, none ever impressed me, not even Avatar).

However we are not talking about 3D movies, we are talking about 3D in videogames, which is a whole different thing entirely ;).

[Rather Dashing]

3D movies are more work than 2D movies (and sofar, no, none ever impressed me, not even Avatar).
I'm pretty sure it's more work in some ways, and less work in others. Also, doesn't it cost less overall?

Hell if I know. :D

[The Highway]

At first I was apprehensive about Guybrush's new sprite, but if I imagine Dom's voice over it, it seems way more promising.

It still has WAY better hair :rolleyes::D

[PecanBlue]

Also, doesn't it cost less overall?

Yes it does.

[Hassat Hunter]

Pretty sure 3D movies are "made" 3D in post-processing, and not during filming. So, yes, that means a lot of additional time and effort there.
Not to mention you need special equipment to show the movies.

So:
Yes it does.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think tickets to 3D movies are more expensive? Not just to cover up the cost of the 3D glasses (although that, too, is a factor). Mostly to pay for making it 3D and to cover up the costs of the additional equipment to the cinema to actually be able to show 3D.

On the other hand, 3D animation in videogames are less timeconsuming and expensive. Which is why movies and games are completely different in regards to "3D".

[PecanBlue]

Ah, so you're talking about 3D cinema in which you wear the glasses. Ok, my mistake, I thought you were talking about the general way in which a movie is animated, because in that case a 2D-animated film really is more expensive than a 3D-animated film.

[Rather Dashing]

Pretty sure 3D movies are "made" 3D in post-processing, and not during filming. So, yes, that means a lot of additional time and effort there.
Wait, I thought we were talking about traditional vs 3D animation. Hand-drawn vs computer animated with 3D models. Snow White vs Shrek, not Aliens VS Avatar.

[light_rises]

Wait, I thought we were talking about traditional vs 3D animation. Hand-drawn vs computer animated with 3D models. Snow White vs Shrek, not Aliens VS Avatar.

Me too.

... Although discussing the difference between movies initially filmed in 3D (Coraline, Avatar) and those filmed "flat" then post-processed into 3D (The Nightmare Before Christmas limited re-release, the current Alice in Wonderland) could be an interesting tangent. But that would lead us too far astray from the main topic, so.

[Hassat Hunter]

Ah, my bad then.

Still, it's the same there, just compare the endcredits of Snow white (few) with Shrek (a massive list that goes on and on and on).

[light_rises]

Still, it's the same there, just compare the endcredits of Snow white (few) with Shrek (a massive list that goes on and on and on).

Not a good comparison. Both of those films come from completely different eras, along with very, very different ways of showing in-film credits. Comparing The Princess and the Frog with How to Train Your Dragon would work much better.

[MusicallyInspired]

That's not a fair comparison. Old movies like Snow White show all the credits at the beginning and just the cast at the end, which seems to have reversed in modern day movies.

EDIT: Dang. Beat me to it. Stupid keyboard-less PS3 browser...

[Rather Dashing]

That's like comparing Avatar's credits with those of an early 1900s Edison film(that is to say, THERE WEREN'T ANY, the company got sole credit). In modern film credits, a LOT more people get their names in. The number of people is not comparable, because one side isn't counting by the same rules.

[PecanBlue]

It's not really that, it's more of the time and things needed to make a 2D film in comparison to that of a 3D film. Now I could be wrong, but I study animation and I've been told god knows how many times by my professors that 2D animated films are more expensive and time-consuming to produce, hence why companies like Disney switched to 3D only for a really long time. They could be wrong but I don't know why they'd stress it so much if it wasn't true or important for the students to know.

Snow White is a little too old to compare to more recent films, since things worked a little differently back then, especially it being the first feature film to be fully in 2D. Anyway, let's compare some budgets at close dates:

Hercules (1997): 93 minutes, $85 million budget
The Prince of Egypt (1998): 99 minutes, $70 million budget
A Bug's Life (1998): 96 minutes, $60 million budget

Home on the Range (2004): 76 minutes, (FOR SOME UNGODLY REASON) $110 million budget
Finding Nemo (2003): 100 minutes, $94 million budget

Now if we compare something more recent such as:

The Princess and the Frog (2009): $105 million, 97 minutes
Up (2009): $175 million, 96 minutes

We have to take into account what goes on with these budgets. How much of it is spent on actually animating? What about advertising? Since Pixar is constantly successful, perhaps they're willing to raise their budget by more every time? Going completely 3D for cinema probably counts into the budget as well. Princess and the Frog was a 2D after a decline of such movies, and they were probably not willing to go on riskier budget.

All in all, supposedly, the money and time that goes into animating for 2D is more than 3D.

[MusicallyInspired]

Also, I don't know about TPATF, but many 2D animated films make use of 3D animation to cut costs and get things done quickly. Even if you don't notice it.

[Hassat Hunter]

Comparing The Princess and the Frog with How to Train Your Dragon would work much better.
Not a good comparisson either. Since I doubt TPATF would not incorporate 3D elements into making it, like most recent 2D movies before the complete rise of 3D movies. Think Mulan's masses, Hercules Hydra etc.
Snow white is atleast a fully 2D movie (not to mention those 2 were the titles Rather Dashing was mentioning, so I just continued on with these 2).
That's not a fair comparison. Old movies like Snow White show all the credits at the beginning and just the cast at the end, which seems to have reversed in modern day movies.
Still, aren't there a lot less names?
That's like comparing Avatar's credits with those of an early 1900s Edison film(that is to say, THERE WEREN'T ANY, the company got sole credit). In modern film credits, a LOT more people get their names in. The number of people is not comparable, because one side isn't counting by the same rules.
Okay, that's maybe too far back. But I doubt a 1900s film got 500+ people working on the graphical effects, would you think?

Browsing Wikipedia (not completely reliable, but it'll have to do)
Lion King (1994): $45,000,000
Toy Story (1995): $30 million

So yeah, it does look like 3D costs less, somehow.

[mlrockrules]

Quick question. When you compared the old images to the new one, I remembered all of them except the one where Wally is hanging in the cell by himself. Where/when in the second game was that?

[Joop]

its next to the maze if you go down halway past maze and hes hanging in a dungen and will tell you you need to get the key from lechuck chamber and he has dinky island map memoriesed

I've actually never seen that.
Must've always walked by it.

[Leak]

Pretty sure 3D movies are "made" 3D in post-processing, and not during filming. So, yes, that means a lot of additional time and effort there.
Uh, actually you can do both:

Avatar (what little "real" stuff - like the actors - there is), for example, was recorded with stereo cameras that give you correct perspective also for those parts - and that's really how recording real-life stuff should be done.

Then there's post-processed 2D movies like the new "Alice In Wonderland" (ugh) - it was filmed in 2D, but since most backdrops were rendered anyway they made it kinda 2-and-a-half-D - the backgrounds are real 3D, but the actors are rather flat (or a bit post-processed to look more 3D-ish, but not nearly perfectly).

And, of course, then there's 100% rendered movies from the likes of Pixar and Dreamworks that "are naturally" 3D if you invest into twice the rendering oomph or have no qualms with rendering taking twice as long...

np: Contriva - Follow Me (8 Eyes ('96 - '99))

[WarlordX40]

I just hope they do the scenes where Guybrush's jaw drops and he flips his wig at the drinking contest well

[VoodooDerina]

2D animation costs more and is much more time consuming than 3D.
That is one of the first things they teach you if you study animation.

[Hassat Hunter]

Avatar (what little "real" stuff - like the actors - there is), for example, was recorded with stereo cameras that give you correct perspective also for those parts - and that's really how recording real-life stuff should be done.
And yet it totally sucks. And if the "showcase of 3D movies" has sloppy 3D, what hope is there for other movies?

I rather wish they stick to 2D.

As for the "other" 3D: I don't really care as long as the story is good.

[Laserschwert]

Just for fun:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4207/mi2c.png

[coolsome]

cooooooooooooooool ^^

[Secret Fawful]

Just for fun:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4207/mi2c.png

The crazy thing is I can't see a huge difference between this and the original.

[Majus]

Laserschwerts picture looks more like a Sierra-Adventure. I guess it’s because of the many colors Guybrush has, seems more blurry like Sierra-Characters.
Anyway, it’s awesome when Laserschwert is having fun, thanks for sharing!

[Laserschwert]

You're welcome, And yeah, the characters in LucasArts-games were always hand-pixeled, while Sierra many times had scanned (or filmed) images as sprites, so they looked "smoother" (or blurrier?).

[Leak]

And yet it totally sucks. And if the "showcase of 3D movies" has sloppy 3D, what hope is there for other movies?
Eh? Did you actually watch that movie? If you actually meant "oh my god they didn't shove 3D gimmicks down our throats in every single shot" then I can only reply "thank goodness!"...

np: Trent Reznor/Alan Moulder - Slipping Away (Nine Inch Nails - Things Falling Apart)

[Hassat Hunter]

Yes, I did.

[Thriftweed Fancy Pants]

It can't be actual 3D, since it's based on the SCUMM engine, which doesn't support real 3D. I think it's easiest for the production team to first create a 3D model of Guybrush, then model a walking animation, and then create walking sprites from that.

I laughed at this comment when I remembered:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8901/mise3d.png

[Rather Dashing]

A lot of things can be said against Avatar, but the use of 3D? Seriously? It was the most well-employed 3D of any movie I'd ever seen. Yes, the film ITSELF was bad, but I loved how the 3D was used to give the picture a more subtle sense of depth than finding ways to simply throw things at the viewer.

[Laserschwert]

I laughed at this comment when I remembered:

They all did:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2164/zak.jpg http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2500/49184019.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4407/89467169.jpg http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9397/loomm.jpg

:D

[MonkeyMania]

Don't forget the 3D acceleration option in CMI.

[Laserschwert]

Don't forget the 3D acceleration option in CMI.Which was a joke... the back of the boxes are most certainly to be taken seriously.

[light_rises]

A lot of things can be said against Avatar, but the use of 3D? Seriously? It was the most well-employed 3D of any movie I'd ever seen. Yes, the film ITSELF was bad, but I loved how the 3D was used to give the picture a more subtle sense of depth than finding ways to simply throw things at the viewer.

Pretty much what I was going to say. Along with Coraline, Avatar didn't leaving me feeling as if the 3D was a gimmick. Too bad the latter imployed the effect significantly better* than the former but also had a vastly (vastly) inferior story. Sigh.

--

*Disclaimer: I have stambismus/amblyopia (a.k.a. "lazy eye") in my left eye. It's not really noticable these days due to therapy, but it's left me ~40% blind in that eye. Any 3D tech (excepting anaglyph 3D) seems to work fine for me despite this, though it's still difficult for me to determine the quality of my 3D effect perception compared to normal-sighted folks. So FWIW ...

[Hassat Hunter]

A lot of things can be said against Avatar, but the use of 3D? Seriously? It was the most well-employed 3D of any movie I'd ever seen. Yes, the film ITSELF was bad, but I loved how the 3D was used to give the picture a more subtle sense of depth than finding ways to simply throw things at the viewer.
Eh, I would say vice-versa. Film was nice, 3D totally sucked.
Whatever floats one boat I guess.

[parabolee]

Just for fun:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4207/mi2c.png

GREAT! This is what I was hoping this thread would be, not this arguing about 2D/3D, no offence guys, but this is fascinating and I was bored of that conversation 3 pages ago :).

Got to grab the original and do a side by side.

Did you also reduce the colours to 256? Is that what MI2 was?

I'll post my LeChuck walk animation Monday too.

[Majus]

I'll post my LeChuck walk animation Monday too.
Looking forward to that, I can’t get enough of that animation!
Judging from the Webpage, LeChucks walk-cycle is something they did brilliantly in the Special Edition. It reminded me of the creepiness when he entered the room in the tunnels-sequence.

[Spadge]

Looking forward to that, I can’t get enough of that animation!
Judging from the Webpage, LeChucks walk-cycle is something they did brilliantly in the Special Edition. It reminded me of the creepiness when he entered the room in the tunnels-sequence.

I really dislike him when he stops moving. His arms are spread just like a 3D model someone forgot to animate and looks really lame to me. But maybe that's just how it looks on the site, he'd probably have a proper idle stance in the game.

[Laserschwert]

Did you also reduce the colours to 256? Is that what MI2 was?
I did, just like the original backgrounds were.

[LuigiHann]

It'd be cool if somebody just did side-by-side comparisons of character art. Like comparing SMI|SE character art to LR:SE character art for the people we have seen returning. I might do it if nobody else pounces on the idea.

[parabolee]

It'd be cool if somebody just did side-by-side comparisons of character art. Like comparing SMI|SE character art to LR:SE character art for the people we have seen returning. I might do it if nobody else pounces on the idea.

That's exactly what I was intending to do with this thread. But I got busy so never got to it.

[Avistew]

I watched Coraline in 3D.
It gave me a huge headache for the whole movie and I didn't see anything in 3D at all, only double images. It was quite annoying.
(That, and I was disappointed in the movie, the book was so much better).

And before you ask, yes, I was wearing the glasses >.>

[Hassat Hunter]

Were they working? I was watching Up in 3D and during the preview already noticed I got I got 'double-vision' instead of (semi-proper, since it still sucked) 3D.

About half the theatre had that issue though, and they were replacing them at the door.

[Hayden]

I watched Coraline in 3D.
It gave me a huge headache for the whole movie and I didn't see anything in 3D at all, only double images. It was quite annoying.
(That, and I was disappointed in the movie, the book was so much better).

And before you ask, yes, I was wearing the glasses >.>

I didn't dislike Coraline, but I'm annoyed that I've watched it because if I ever am to read the book, then I can no longer let my imagination build the world and characters in my mind, I'll just bee seeing images from the movie in my mind.

[Avistew]

I wouldn't say I disliked it as much as I liked it less. I know the extra character was added by Gaiman himself as some kind of narrator, but I'm sure she could have talked to the cat or something. And as a result she needs to be saved in the end. Plus in the whole movie everyone else is helping her.
In the book she's brave, strong, clever and isn't relying purely on everyone else's help. I felt she was much weaker in the movie and I disliked that.

I hear you on seeing images from the movie. I always try to read the book first when both exist so that I can make my own mental image of the characters and places.

[Chyron8472]

On a similar note, I'm reading the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon series) and am at the end of book 2. The books are really quite good, and I've been told to avoid the movie Eragon like the plague because it sucks and has little to no connection to the story. However, I find myself considering watching it for the sake of seeing a physical representation of the characters. I'm not sure whether to risk it.

[Avistew]

If it's just to see a physical representation, you could go to an official website or something and look at the pictures?
Or find a trailer of some sort?

[Chyron8472]

aha. Trailer. good idea.

[Rather Dashing]

On a similar note, I'm reading the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon series) and am at the end of book 2.
Wait, people can actually stand to get much farther than Chapter 1 of Book 1? I just assumed that the books kept getting published because the kid's parents own a publishing company that they could afford to throw away.

[Hayden]

I was hoping there'd be some sort of trailer in the video section of the official website, but my two most hated words stood in my way - "coming soon".

[light_rises]

I watched Coraline in 3D.
It gave me a huge headache for the whole movie and I didn't see anything in 3D at all, only double images. It was quite annoying.

I've heard about these headaches on a number of occassions. Which is one of the few things that worry me about 3D tech becoming more ubiquitous. If we get to the point of almost every theater only showing 3D versions of movies, what about the people who have trouble watching them that way?

I wouldn't say I disliked it as much as I liked it less. I know the extra character was added by Gaiman himself as some kind of narrator, but I'm sure she could have talked to the cat or something. And as a result she needs to be saved in the end. Plus in the whole movie everyone else is helping her.
In the book she's brave, strong, clever and isn't relying purely on everyone else's help. I felt she was much weaker in the movie and I disliked that.

My disclaimer: I haven't read the book yet, and it's been a little while since I've seen the movie. That said, I think Wybie's presence in the film is defensible as a way of getting around the difficulties inherent with translating internal monologue into something filmable. Regardless of what ended up happening in the movie, Wybie's existence alone didn't necessitate Coraline needing to be saved by him in the end. He's partly (perhaps mostly) there as a narrative convenience, after all.

In all honesty, though, his Big Damn Hero moment doesn't bother me that much. My reasons are two-fold: One, I don't see how Coraline getting help from others diminishes what she accomplishes. I like that while it's something of a "team effort" for her to defeat the Other Mother, she ultimately has to "do the deed(s)" herself and figure out some of what she's supposed to do -- at least in a more exact sense -- on her own. In fact, she only becomes completely helpless during that last confrontation. Otherwise, she acts fairly typical for a girl her age while still displaying some atypical cleverness and courage in the face of some really peculiar/scary circumstances.

Two, I sometimes wonder if the general reaction towards Wybie's knight-in-shining-armor moment would have been different if Coraline had been a Charlie and Wybie had been a Wilma. To be clear, this doesn't mean I think you in particular would react differently (I've seen what you've said about double-standards elsewhere, after all). But I do see this sort of double-standard crop up enough times to bug me and, as a result, I end up pushing back a bit even if said double-standard isn't what's being invoked.

Anyway, back on-topic:

It'd be cool if somebody just did side-by-side comparisons of character art. Like comparing SMI|SE character art to LR:SE character art for the people we have seen returning. I might do it if nobody else pounces on the idea.

I third this suggestion. Someone out there, whoever you are, please do it!

[Rather Dashing]

I've heard about these headaches on a number of occassions. Which is one of the few things that worry me about 3D tech becoming more ubiquitous. If we get to the point of almost every theater only showing 3D versions of movies, what about the people who have trouble watching them that way?
From what I understand, a lot of it has to do with how you look at the image (http://www.shadowlocked.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70:how-to-avoid-getting-a-3d-headache-while-watching-avatar&catid=41:feature).

[Chyron8472]

Wait, people can actually stand to get much farther than Chapter 1 of Book 1? I just assumed that the books kept getting published because the kid's parents own a publishing company that they could afford to throw away.

If you didn't even get past Chapter 1, then you didn't ven get to where his dragon hatches yet, let alone the actual development of the story and characters.

[Rather Dashing]

If you didn't even get past Chapter 1, then you didn't ven get to where his dragon hatches yet, let alone the actual development of the story and characters.
Right. Wouldn't want to miss the majority of the part where an inexperienced kid rips off every fantasy story from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars.

[Avistew]

I've heard about these headaches on a number of occassions. Which is one of the few things that worry me about 3D tech becoming more ubiquitous. If we get to the point of almost every theater only showing 3D versions of movies, what about the people who have trouble watching them that way?

Not to mention people who only see from one eye. I mean, as long as you can choose whether you watch the movie in 2D or in 3D that's fine, but what if it started not being a choice anymore?



In fact, she only becomes completely helpless during that last confrontation.

I think that was my problem. In the book, I loved the end. How Coraline had planned it all and Other Mother fell in her trap. It was great.
In the movie, she's completely oblivious to Other Mother following her and needs rescuing. I feel it changes the character quite a bit. It gives her a weaker ending, and that annoyed me. The "teamwork" part I felt was more part of it being adapted (you need to give the other actors more of a chance) plus she does get help in the book too, just not quite that much.

I don't think it has much to do with gender, I mean Wybie isn't a macho man or anything like that. I just dislike changes that I feel change what the character is like or is about.
I remember watching a TV episode recently (only a few days ago actually) that was adapted from a book, and they turned a character gay. That, in itself, wouldn't be such a problem. But as a result, the actions of that character are completely different. The woman he loved but rejected him, causing him to be spiteful and let her die, became the one who hit on him, while he was actually in love with her husband, and hated her because she married him.
It was complete nonsense, everyone's actions meant different things, more notably he became some kind of victim whose love never faded and she became some kind of b*tch who was the one hitting on him rather than the other way around, even though she was married and in love. I hated that change.

See what I mean? (Spoilered just in case, even though I don't say what it's a TV episode from)

Another thing I think in Coraline is that it was very much her journey in the book. It had happened to others before but she was doing it alone. It's easier to fell how scary it would have been due to that. The movie took a bit of that away I feel.

[MonkeyMania]

MI fans sure know how to make threads boring.

[Chyron8472]

You appropriate. You fight like a cow.



okay, then... back on topic. Whatever happened to someone posting comparison shots of this to the original game?

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4207/mi2c.png


And... I wonder if they're going to keep the "monkey wrench" puzzle, seeing how it originally confused Europeans.

[OzzieMonkey]

You appropriate. You fight like a cow.



okay, then... back on topic. Whatever happened to someone posting comparison shots of this to the original game?

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4207/mi2c.png


And... I wonder if they're going to keep the "monkey wrench" puzzle, seeing how it originally confused Europeans.

They should have a sign pop up that says 'If you're European, press 1 now' or something. Btw, to any Europeans, I wasn't meaning any offense.Was the European thing to do with the fact that they call a monkey wrench a spanner? Also, I think we call them spanners here in the land down under as well.

[MonkeyMania]

WIP
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5893/wip2.png

[Hayden]

WIP
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5893/wip2.png

That is brilliant so far! I can't wait to see the finished product!

[StarEye]

They should have a sign pop up that says 'If you're European, press 1 now' or something. Btw, to any Europeans, I wasn't meaning any offense.Was the European thing to do with the fact that they call a monkey wrench a spanner? Also, I think we call them spanners here in the land down under as well.

Uhm, we learn differences between American English and British English in our schools here in Norway. Not everyone lives in the UK, and only a fraction of the European continent speaks native english at all. I certainly don't call a monkey wrench a spanner where I live. I call it a "skiftenøkkel". So I seriously don't get this problem with the puzzle, and to me it was just like any other puzzle. I think it's mostly the UK people or people with British english as their native language that have problems. The rest of europe, I think, never complains. This while "worst puzzle ever" blown way out of proportion.

Edit: also found out that my english-norwegian-english book from '95 have both "spanner" and "monkey wrench". This particular copy is from '95, but the revision is from '89. 3 years before Monkey 2 was released.

[coolsome]

cos of american TV it seemed easy to me

[OzzieMonkey]

cos of american TV it seemed easy to me

And now I pay the price for using walkthroughs because I was too young (and not smart enough) to figure out the puzzles. Oh well, this is why I'm glad I can ditch walkthroughs for Telltale.

[Avistew]

Yeah, I don't get the big deal about this puzzle. In French the word has nothing to do with monkeys either so the pun was lost, but it was just one more goofy puzzle. I never remembered it as harder or weirder than the rest of the game.

[Fealiks]

They all did:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2164/zak.jpg http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2500/49184019.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4407/89467169.jpg http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9397/loomm.jpg

:D

20 years ago, "3D" just meant that the art was detailed enough that the artists were able to use perspectives in their backgrounds. Right now we don't think of that as 3D at all, and we see things that have been made with 3D models as 3D. In another 20 years, people might not see that as being 3D at all, and think of 3D as things that appeal to your actual depth-perception.

[Leak]

I've heard about these headaches on a number of occassions. Which is one of the few things that worry me about 3D tech becoming more ubiquitous. If we get to the point of almost every theater only showing 3D versions of movies, what about the people who have trouble watching them that way?
Then give them glasses that are polarized the same for both eyes, and they'll have instant 2D like before.

Same goes for the 3D format for Blu-Ray - you've got a regular video that every regular 2D player can play which consists of the video seen by one (left?) eye, and there's another video for the right(?) eye that has it's frames based on the corresponding left eye frame for extra compression efficency, so the extra video should take up roughly half the bitrate of the other one.

np: Harold Budd & Brian Eno - An Echo Of Night (The Pearl)

[Xocrates]

I certainly don't call a monkey wrench a spanner where I live. I call it a "skiftenøkkel". So I seriously don't get this problem with the puzzle, and to me it was just like any other puzzle.
Actually you just stated one of the problems of the puzzle. In localized versions the puzzle made no sense since using a "monkey" as a "skiftenøkkel" (or whatever the word may be in other language) isn't something obvious.

[Didero]

If I recall correctly, wasn't his tail shaped a bit like a hand drill (http://www.antiqueadvertiser.com/Collectables/Tools/HandDrill.jpg)? If so, then that was a hint too.
It's been a while since I played MI2, but I don't remember that puzzle as being any harder than the rest, and English isn't my native language either.

[Irishmile]

I can not wait for more images and videos to start showing up for this game.

[Fealiks]

I can not wait for more images and videos to start showing up for this game.

Samesies.

[Avistew]

Actually you just stated one of the problems of the puzzle. In localized versions the puzzle made no sense since using a "monkey" as a "skiftenøkkel" (or whatever the word may be in other language) isn't something obvious.

Using things as other things for completely obscure reasons is part of what Monkey island is all about though.

[Thespis]

And... I wonder if they're going to keep the "monkey wrench" puzzle, seeing how it originally confused Europeans.

They'll have a hint system again. If anyone gets stuck they can just get hints (or go online and look for a walkthrough).

[Irishmile]

WIP
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5893/wip2.png

I just noticed this.... awesome cant wait to see it done.

[StarEye]

If I recall correctly, wasn't his tail shaped a bit like a hand drill (http://www.antiqueadvertiser.com/Collectables/Tools/HandDrill.jpg)? If so, then that was a hint too.
It's been a while since I played MI2, but I don't remember that puzzle as being any harder than the rest, and English isn't my native language either.

Just reloaded an old save to check. While he didn't have the handdrill tail, he had his arms in a position that is completely unnatural and obviously hinting that he was meant to grip something. And who doesn't use everything on everything, just to check out the responses.

Also, I found out that if you try and drink the near-grog, he only drinks part of it, and it says "1/2 of a bottle of near-grog", and it becomes 1/3, 1/4 etc etc. I tried it all the way up to 1/120. I don't have the stamina to see how long it goes. Thanksfully for LucasArts, he doesn't say how much is in it every time.

[coolsome]

wow it is so hard to avoid playing it till the Special Edition

[Avistew]

You know, it's funny, but I didn't even remember the monkey wrench was in Revenge. I think I remembered it as part of Secret. Although I can't be sure, I really see those two games as one big one, I've pretty much always played them back to back and all. Except on my first play through I guess.

[Fealiks]

You know, it's funny, but I didn't even remember the monkey wrench was in Revenge. I think I remembered it as part of Secret. Although I can't be sure, I really see those two games as one big one, I've pretty much always played them back to back and all. Except on my first play through I guess.

To be honest I don't remember it at all. I've completed MI2 twice as well, but that was a few years ago now.

[LuigiHann]

I think the best way to handle the monkey wrench puzzle for the remake would just be to draw the hypnotized monkey in an even more obvious wrench-like pose. That way even if people don't get the pun they might still recognize it as a wrench-shaped item.

[Chyron8472]

You know, it's funny, but I didn't even remember the monkey wrench was in Revenge. I think I remembered it as part of Secret.

To be honest I don't remember it at all. I've completed MI2 twice as well, but that was a few years ago now.

Above the Phatt Island waterfall...

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/8096/85377588.png

[coolsome]

that looks wrong on so many levels!

[light_rises]

I think that was my problem. In the book, I loved the end. How Coraline had planned it all and Other Mother fell in her trap. It was great.
In the movie, she's completely oblivious to Other Mother following her and needs rescuing. I feel it changes the character quite a bit. It gives her a weaker ending, and that annoyed me. The "teamwork" part I felt was more part of it being adapted (you need to give the other actors more of a chance) plus she does get help in the book too, just not quite that much.

I don't think it has much to do with gender, I mean Wybie isn't a macho man or anything like that. I just dislike changes that I feel change what the character is like or is about.
I remember watching a TV episode recently (only a few days ago actually) that was adapted from a book, and they turned a character gay. That, in itself, wouldn't be such a problem. But as a result, the actions of that character are completely different. The woman he loved but rejected him, causing him to be spiteful and let her die, became the one who hit on him, while he was actually in love with her husband, and hated her because she married him.
It was complete nonsense, everyone's actions meant different things, more notably he became some kind of victim whose love never faded and she became some kind of b*tch who was the one hitting on him rather than the other way around, even though she was married and in love. I hated that change.

See what I mean? (Spoilered just in case, even though I don't say what it's a TV episode from)

Another thing I think in Coraline is that it was very much her journey in the book. It had happened to others before but she was doing it alone. It's easier to fell how scary it would have been due to that. The movie took a bit of that away I feel.

Yikes. I see what you mean. And that TV example sounds like a veritable pileup of strange and ill-advised changes.

When I think about it, I'm not sure what I'd do if I were in the position of adapting something -- even more so if it's well regarded. There's no way to make everyone happy. Quality issues aside, different people bring different schools of thought to the table when it comes to what an adaptation "should" or "shouldn't" be. Nobody is necessarily wrong, especially if they can back up their position with thoughtful and well-reasoned points, but it doesn't always leave the adapters with much to go off of. That's art for ya, I suppose.

In any case, it looks like Coraline has found its way farther up my book queue. :) It'll be interesting to see what my take on it will be.

[Irishmile]

Now I have that Foo Fighters song stuck in my head

[Amyris]

Oh shit, I really hoped that there were no "old pixels" visible in the MI2 SE, mainly because I hoped they would scan in the old painted backgrounds in high resolution again instead of "painting over".

But sadly there are old pixels visible in these screenshots already:
Laundry-screen:
- as mentioned on the left of the left pirate
- many old pixels on the ship planks beneath the pirates (left of the box)
- many old pixels behind the right pirate (in the background)

Woodtick-Bridge
- some old pixels on the rock on the right

So I think we will see quite a few "old pixels" in the MI2 SE. Oh boy why?!? They simply had to scan the old handpainted backgrounds in high resolution again, but instead of that let the chinese painters paint over the low-resolution screens again. What a shame.

[Fealiks]

Oh shit, I really hoped that there were no "old pixels" visible in the MI2 SE, mainly because I hoped they would scan in the old painted backgrounds in high resolution again instead of "painting over".

But sadly there are old pixels visible in these screenshots already:
Laundry-screen:
- as mentioned on the left of the left pirate
- many old pixels on the ship planks beneath the pirates (left of the box)
- many old pixels behind the right pirate (in the background)

Woodtick-Bridge
- some old pixels on the rock on the right

So I think we will see quite a few "old pixels" in the MI2 SE. Oh boy why?!? They simply had to scan the old handpainted backgrounds in high resolution again, but instead of that let the chinese painters paint over the low-resolution screens again. What a shame.

I don't see any old pixels in the places you mentioned. Also, what "chinese painters"?

[Hayden]

that looks wrong on so many levels!

Yeah, I remember somebody mentioning that in the comments of a youtube video. I've never thought of or looked at that scene the same since.

[Secret Fawful]

Above the Phatt Island waterfall...

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/8096/85377588.png

Hey! That sort of thing don't go around here, ya hear. :D

I don't see any old pixels in the places you mentioned. Also, what "chinese painters"?

I think Amyris was talking about how caligraphic the paint strokes on the backgrounds look.

[Chyron8472]

sadly there are old pixels visible in these screenshots already:
Laundry-screen:
- as mentioned on the left of the left pirate
- many old pixels on the ship planks beneath the pirates (left of the box)
- many old pixels behind the right pirate (in the background)

Woodtick-Bridge
- some old pixels on the rock on the right

I don't see any old pixels in the places you mentioned.

here. let me help you:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1281/21478042.png

[Irishmile]

Is it possible that they have their monitors set too dark and are missing this stuff? That happens to me on occasion I will make something on my computer and when I see it someplace else it looks like crap and then I get embarrassed and do not post art for a while.

[Hassat Hunter]

Even with Chyron8472 highlighting it, I only see the first one pointed out (the one entirely left).

What exactly is horribly broken with the rest which should make me forsake LCR:SE and seek shelter in the nuclear bomb shelter, complaining on the blog?
They simply had to scan the old handpainted backgrounds in high resolution again
Yup, so simple. Probably they aren't available after 20 years, or if so, severly yellowed, but hey; so simple. Also probably not fit for 2000x1000+ monitors, but... so simple.
I mean, why does LA waste their time repainting if they can simply use the old background, everyone got it! And it's not like stuff got painted added there, like the piano (see demo-final comparrison thread).

Silly LA. They could have had it so simple... they are lazier than TTG and their new control system!

[Avistew]

When I think about it, I'm not sure what I'd do if I were in the position of adapting something -- even more so if it's well regarded.

I know what you mean. On the one hand I'd want to respect the original work, on the other hand I realise that a book and a movie (for example) work differently and the same story should be told in different ways to end up giving the same vibe and stand alone. Otherwise it's just a "port", if you know what I mean.
People watching the movie shouldn't guess it was adapted from the book if they didn't know it in the first place. (Unless that's what you were going for. I think Sin City for instance makes it obvious it was originally comics, but I think it worked very well).

This being said, I believe that most book, except very short ones, would be adapted better as a series, since a movie would probably be too short. And a series would allow you to see it in several sittings, which is common with a book, and have it divided into episodes, similar to chapters.
Of course it depends but I feel it would be easier to take it all in. I know I have a problem with what I call "American length" movies, that is movies that are two and a half, three, sometimes four hours.
It's just too long for me, I find myself looking at my watch even if I'm interested and I like the movie. I still much prefer the one hour and a half length.

Anyway, I think when you adapt something you have to think in matter of impressions, feelings, vibes, rather than just facts and events. If you just make things happen exactly the same way it might result in a boring movie, you know?

I think if for some weird reason I had to adapt something, I'd feel more comfortable if I was either the author of the original work or stay in touch with them, so I can know what their original intent was for X or Y and try and recreate it.

And I think in the end there will always be people who don't like it.

[Awesomepantsman]

They simply had to scan the old handpainted backgrounds in high resolution again, but instead of that let the chinese painters paint over the low-resolution screens again. What a shame.

Also, what "chinese painters"?

Perhaps he was refering to the fact that the art was made by the LucasArts studio in Singapore, calling them 'Chinese' because of the western generalisation that all asian people are Chinese.

Whoa, I feel like I just blew out a lot of steam there. I'll just... go back to lurking.

[SHODANFreeman]

Is it possible that they have their monitors set too dark and are missing this stuff? That happens to me on occasion I will make something on my computer and when I see it someplace else it looks like crap and then I get embarrassed and do not post art for a while.

This seems likely.

[StarEye]

I can't believe people actually notice these things, nevermind care! I bet some people gets a kick out of studying screenshots to the extreme just to find something they can complain about.

[Fealiks]

Is it possible that they have their monitors set too dark and are missing this stuff? That happens to me on occasion I will make something on my computer and when I see it someplace else it looks like crap and then I get embarrassed and do not post art for a while.

Yeah, that happens to me sometimes too... now whenever I get a new PC or monitor, I try to set it up as best I can with QuickGamma (http://www.quickgamma.de/indexen.html)

[Thriftweed Fancy Pants]

I can't believe people actually notice these things, nevermind care! I bet some people gets a kick out of studying screenshots to the extreme just to find something they can complain about.

How can you not notice/care? Just look at the way that pixel is... No, wait... that's a bit of food on my monitor... My mistake.

Seriously though. These pictures belong on a conspiracy theory website, like www.whereistreasurecrab.com (http://www.telltalegames.com/whereistreasurecrab)

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8420/66076092.png

[OzzieMonkey]

How can you not notice/care? Just look at the way that pixel is... No, wait... that's a bit of food on my monitor... My mistake.

Seriously though. These pictures belong on a conspiracy theory website, like www.whereistreasurecrab.com (http://www.telltalegames.com/whereistreasurecrab)

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8420/66076092.png

There's one more place the treasure crab might be: In the bucket!

[MusicallyInspired]

Just wow.

[shovell]

Does monkey wrench mean something else for Americans? I just got through it from trying everything with everything :-S

[Hayden]

I just got through it from trying everything with everything :-S

I hate having to resort to that.

[Brainiac]

Does monkey wrench mean something else for Americans? I just got through it from trying everything with everything :-S

Behold, the monkey wrench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_wrench). It's a pun.

[Irishmile]

That pixel treasure crab may end up being my AV after this whole eye shenanigans get old

[coolsome]

That pixel treasure crab may end up being my AV after this whole eye shenanigans get old

what about when we obsese with a new body part

[Irishmile]

what about when we obsese with a new body part



I have no way of telling the future... I have not ordered the voodoo cards yet.

[SHODANFreeman]

what about when we obsese with a new body part

Giggity.

[shovell]

Behold, the monkey wrench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_wrench). It's a pun.

Yeahhh...... that DOES make more sense....

[youmaycallmemurray]

his eyes look wierd, otherwise a vast improvement from the other SE

[LeChuck1986]

Well, don't wanna read through 10 pages, so sorry if this has been said before.

What if the ending is extended to flow better with Curse of Monkey Island?
Like LeChuck sailing away and Guybrush's escape from the Carnival of the Damned?
Seeing how it is easier to extend the MI2 ending than to extend the MI3 beginning.

[Scrawffler]

I've seen a few mentions of the ending possibly being extended, but has anything been officially hinted or confirmed by LucasArts yet? I think it would be an interesting add-on, but it's a gamble too; if they don't go about it the right way I can imagine people being very disappointed.

Behold, the monkey wrench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_wrench).
And so, after all these years of being familiar with LeChuck's Revenge, I finally know what a monkey wrench is. I truly fail at life.

(I thought it had something to do with a spanner, but was never entirely sure)

[Indrid Cold]

Behold, the monkey wrench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_wrench). It's a pun.
They call it a parrot in Greek for some reason.

[Avistew]

Clé à molette in French, which roughly translates to "wheel key".

[Indrid Cold]

Incidentally, this (http://www.stanleytools.gr/images/gallikofacplagio.JPG) type of thing is called a "French key" in Greek.

[Avistew]

Haha, it's called English/British key in French :D

[Laserschwert]

And the monkey wrench is called "Engländer" ("Englishman") in German:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Monkey_wrench.jpg/180px-Monkey_wrench.jpg

The mind boggles!

[Avistew]

I wonder what it is with tools and nationalities...

Subtle way of insulting each other?

[apenpaap]

We call it an "engelse sleutel" (english key).

[Avistew]

I hereby decide to post about expressions with nationalities in them, more specifically reversed ones. You'll see what I mean.

"French letter" => "English condoms" in French.
"To take French leave" => "to leave the English way" in French.
"French disease" (syphilis) => "English disease" in French
"French seam" => "English seam" in French

I find that fascinating, personally. For some I get it, it's insulting each other, for others, I have no clue why or how it came to be.

[VoodooDerina]

And in Serbian language it is called "francuski ključ" - "French key" :)

[Irishmile]

Max calls it a blunt object of hitting.... +1

[Ghost82]

the swirly clouds.

YEAH. Just a legacy on MI saga. I know they came with CMI, but you know...

I think MI2: SE will look AWESOME. Maybe Lucas should do a SMI:SE v.2 hahaha.

[MusicallyInspired]

I've always hated the swirly clouds.

[Laserschwert]

"Hate" is a strong word...

[Hayden]

I've always hated the swirly clouds.

Wow! How is it even possible to hate the swirly clouds?

[coolsome]

http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/grandpa-simpson-yelling-at-cloud.jpg

[Hayden]

http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/grandpa-simpson-yelling-at-cloud.jpg

Haha! Perfect for the situation!

[Fealiks]

http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/grandpa-simpson-yelling-at-cloud.jpg

hahaha, +1 internets for you

[Ghost82]

HAHAHAHAH great XD

[stoney1981]

I´m very picky when it comes to "Monkey Island 2 - Le Chuck´s Revenge", especially because it was the first adventure i´ve ever played back in my youth.

While the updated Comic Look does look pretty decent, i´m not quite sure if and how it will fit in the darker themed Monkey Island 2. You know, somehow that pixel art grew on me, it had a realistic look to some extend. Old School players will understand what i mean, just imagine the creepy looking Le Chuck entering the stage in the Tunnel Scene and you should get the picture. 2D really does age pretty well if you ask me. After all these years, this scene is still stuck in my head. :)

I´ll buy the Special Edition anyway, if only for the voice over and commentaries. "Monkey Island 2 - Le Chuck´s Revenge" is a great game, for me even the best Monkey Island game ever released. It deserves every respect. I hope Lucas does it justice and gives new players a fresh conversion of this classic.

[Wolfstar27]

im suprised that no ones mentioned in this thread about, the changes to the image where Guybrush is hanging from the rope with Elaine, if you notice in the orignal, that before Guybrush is hanging he blows up the spot with dyamite cause he hits cement, and at the top of the photo, there is metal wire hanging out, but in the new version its roots, does this mean there changing the story abit?

also Guybrush i pefer the old big beard version, and brown hair

[Majus]

It was mentioned and discussed (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269116#post269116) a lot actually.

[Wolfstar27]

It was mentioned and discussed (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269116#post269116) a lot actually.

ah ok cheers for that :)

[MusicallyInspired]

http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/grandpa-simpson-yelling-at-cloud.jpg

Clearly, sir, your internets are greater than mine. Nice.

[Brainiac]

Clearly, sir, your internets are greater than mine. Nice.

I dunno, I never got a retort from Sailorcuteness for a particularly obvious geeky line (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269167#post269167).

[coolsome]

I dunno, I never got a retort from Sailorcuteness for a particularly obvious geeky line (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269167#post269167).

star wars quotes fights are painful for everyone involved

[Brainiac]

That's a logical argument, actually. Especially if someone devolves into Binks quotes. Ugh.

[Silverwolfpet]

Me...wants....more....epic....screenshots!

[corruptbiggins]

Me...wants....more....epic....screenshots!

Just make some more yourself! :D

[Fealiks]

I dunno, I never got a retort from Sailorcuteness for a particularly obvious geeky line (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269167#post269167).

But your post was the retort :p

[Silverwolfpet]

Just make some more yourself! :D

Oh ha ha hardy har har! http://www.spinzonecomics.com/Smileys/brad_smileys/tongue_20x20.png

[Brainiac]

But your post was the retort :p

True, but that doesn't preclude the creation of a litany of retorts. It's like insult swordfighting!

And yes, I do fight like a cow. :p