telltale, start making RPG's

[deadlinejon]

and i dont mean JRPG's. i mean mario & luigi style RPG's.
think about it, good comedy, and good story. its like TTG was MADE for RPG's.

though they handle point'n'clicks pretty welll

[Giant Tope]

and i dont mean JRPG's. i mean mario & luigi style RPG's.

wait what

[Remolay]

hate to break it to ya, but Mario and Luigi is a JRPG

[Avistew]

I think they mean that although Mario & Luigi is of course a Japanese RPG, as far as they're concerned JRPG means FF?

[MusicallyInspired]

No.

[Will]

To be fair, I think our engine would be pretty darn good at turn based RPGs. Action RPGs would take some work though. I mean, more so than usual.

[Remolay]

REality 2.0 showed that you can do that, but still. I rather like it just being Adventure games though

[adventureaddict]

Yeah, as much as I love RPG's, I love my adventure games more.

[coolsome]

I like RPG like zelda better with no leveling up

[Falanca]

REality 2.0 showed that you can do that, but still. I rather like it just being Adventure games though

Isn't Reality 2.0 a graphical adventure game that was cleverly disguised as an action adventure (and even a realtime RPG and all that)? I mean they are good at making that one but, making a REAL Action Adventure will DO need some major tweaking on the engine even if we count that spesific episode.

[thatdude98]

and i dont mean jrpg's. I mean mario & luigi style rpg's.
Think about it, good comedy, and good story. Its like ttg was made for rpg's.

Though they handle point'n'clicks pretty welll

hell no!

[thatdude98]

Isn't Reality 2.0 a graphical adventure game that was cleverly disguised as an action adventure (and even a realtime RPG and all that)? I mean they are good at making that one but, making a REAL Action Adventure will DO need some major tweaking on the engine even if we count that spesific episode.

No. Just no.

[Falanca]

Gee, why the hate?

[Hassat Hunter]

TTG + Obsidian Entertainment making me an RPG/Adventure mix?

Can I say... HELL YEAH.

Although if it's an JRPG' people start dying at both firms 0_0.

[MusicallyInspired]

I hate turn-based RPGs. Only ones like Zelda cut it for me.

[SHODANFreeman]

I like RPG like zelda better with no leveling up

I hate turn-based RPGs. Only ones like Zelda cut it for me.

If one more person calls Zelda an RPG, I'ma start breakin' things.

[GuruGuru214]

If one more person calls Zelda an RPG, I'ma start breakin' things.

I was about to say the same thing. The closest Zelda comes to an RPG is Zelda II, which is by no coincidence the worst game in the series. Zelda is and always will be (at least for as long as it's still good) an action-adventure series.

[MusicallyInspired]

It is so an RPG (role-playing-game). You may not have visible numbers for stats to increase, but nonetheless you must overcome obstacles and enemies to collect items that make you stronger and more powerful to move on to the next obstacle. Sounds like an RPG to me.

[banishingseraph]

I was about to say the same thing. The closest Zelda comes to an RPG is Zelda II, which is by no coincidence the worst game in the series. Zelda is and always will be (at least for as long as it's still good) an action-adventure series.

Well that is proof that some are unsure what exactly an RPG is when they're not looking at it in terms of JRPG. I feel that it's insane to think that Zelda can be confused for one but I guess it happens. It's a disconnect that has happened from the action-rpg genre and the fpsrpg that you are seeing now days. But an rpg is generally stat driven in battle and has a battle system that shows improvement in character ability through experience derived from battle. Or at least that's how I feel on it.

[SHODANFreeman]

It is so an RPG (role-playing-game). You may not have visible numbers for stats to increase, but nonetheless you must overcome obstacles and enemies to collect items that make you stronger and more powerful to move on to the next obstacle. Sounds like an RPG to me.

So Metroid must be an RPG then too. And Castlevania. And Mega Man.

[banishingseraph]

It is so an RPG (role-playing-game). You may not have visible numbers for stats to increase, but nonetheless you must overcome obstacles and enemies to collect items that make you stronger and more powerful to move on to the next obstacle. Sounds like an RPG to me.

That sounds like you're making a case for God of War being an RPG too. But from that basic idea you sort of described most of the games made for the SNES. Including Super Mario World.

[MusicallyInspired]

God of War's game world is completely linear and progressive. Zelda's game world is completely open. But I suppose that doesn't necessarily designate a game as being RPG, even though most all RPGs that I know of have open game worlds.

The only thing that actually does put a stop to my argument is Metroid, which also has an open game world but isn't an RPG. And equally as ironic is Zelda II, which is more like a traditional RPG than any of the other Zelda games and yet it's mostly a side-scroller.

[Barnabus]

This is all just semantics, but I don't have a problem with calling Zelda an action RPG. You have an open world, you level up your own health stats and items, you deal with NPCs in typical JRPG fashion. It's simpler and more streamlined than most, but still fits the bill for the most part.

[guitarsareboring]

Never warmed to RPGs, please don't.

[SHODANFreeman]

This is all just semantics, but I don't have a problem with calling Zelda an action RPG. You have an open world, you level up your own health stats and items, you deal with NPCs in typical JRPG fashion. It's simpler and more streamlined than most, but still fits the bill for the most part.

Open world has nothing to do with being an RPG or not, you don't level up any items, you only get heart containers based on exploration or defeating specific enemies (as opposed to being able to kill any enemies you encounter in order to increase your skills), and there are barely any NPCs in most Zelda titles that you have any significant interaction with beyond conversation. Not to mention that there is absolutely no character customization, stats, experience gain, gear, or skills.

[Barnabus]

Bleh, like I say it's fiddly semantics. Even if it technically doesn't qualify Zelda's influence on the action RPG genre is immense and obvious.

[Rawr]

Zelda is an Action-Adventure; Not an Role-Playing Game. In the Legend of Zelda, you do indeed increase your health with heart containers, but that happens in every action game, not just RPG's. You also do get items to use to progress through dungeons, and also the bosses, but that is an aspect of an Adventure game also, as shown by Telltale games. Yes it could be considered an RPG, because RPGs contain those features also, but the key feature of RPGs, is level/stat progression, skills and a deep story with character development. Those are features which Legend of Zelda doesn't have, other than II which did contain some stat progression. Thus, the conclusion that it is an Action-Adventure game, fits the game, much more.

[coolsome]

So Metroid must be an RPG then too. And Castlevania. And Mega Man.

and WWE games where you make your create a wrestlers stats increse

[GinnyN]

If you take the Rol of someone, you are playing an RPG and so everygame in the world is an RPG.

NOW, for some reason I like Turn Based Games and I'm dying to play a good one. Especially if is Telltale's.

[MusicallyInspired]

you don't level up any items

So the Longshot doesn't count as a Hookshot upgrade? Or the Bow and the Slingshot? Or the Power Bracelet and the two gauntlets? Or the fish scales to dive farther underwater, and to a lesser extent, the iron boots and the blue tunic to breathe and walk underwater indefinitely.

Not to mention that there is absolutely no character customization, stats, experience gain, gear, or skills.

That is definitely not a staple of an RPG (again, even though most games nowadays have character customization). You can't customise anybody in any of the SNES/NES era RPGs.

[taumel]

But who will make adventures then?

Therefore i would prefer if Richard Garriott would make Ultima X (i miss the Ultima feeling), In Exile another The Bard's Tale (go magic mouths, go!) and Runic Games Torchlight 2 (without the multiplayer thing).

[Blackgoat]

By RPG, he's referring to more of a Dungeon and Dragons style of gameplay, which is what Final Fantasy is more or less based on. Sure any game that puts you in control of a character is technically role-playing, the goal of this thread is probably more specific. Something maybe like Gold Box D&D or Baldur's Gate-ish. That's my interpretation of non-jrpg, anyway. Maybe even Dragon Age or Mass Effect like- gameplay. A deep story-telling aspect with robust combat.

[Irishmile]

turn based RPG often put me to sleep...

[taumel]

@Blackgoat
Hmm i never liked the Final Fantasy type of games, not the conversations, not the way the fights worked, just not my thing.

@Irishmile
Turn based is fine if it's done well and suits a game.

[Rawr]

So the Longshot doesn't count as a Hookshot upgrade? Or the Bow and the Slingshot? Or the Power Bracelet and the two gauntlets? Or the fish scales to dive farther underwater, and to a lesser extent, the iron boots and the blue tunic to breathe and walk underwater indefinitely.
You use and 'upgrade' items in an Adventure game also, to be able to overcome different obstacles. That isn't just a staple of the RPG genre.

The RPG genre contains features from many other genres, including Action, and Adventure genres. However, ontop of that it also contains other features. Which Legend of Zelda does not have. Consequently, it fits the Action-Adventure banner much more than the RPG banner.

That is definitely not a staple of an RPG (again, even though most games nowadays have character customization). You can't customise anybody in any of the SNES/NES era RPGs.
That's a lie. In the original Final Fantasy games you chose your job(class). In all of them you customized your equipment from a massive array which changed your stats, allowed you to learn new skills or magic in some cases. Far more so than you can in Legend of Zelda.

[MusicallyInspired]

You use and 'upgrade' items in an Adventure game also, to be able to overcome different obstacles. That isn't just a staple of the RPG genre.

I never said it was, I was just pointing out the error in stating that Zelda doesn't have upgradable items.

That's a lie. In the original Final Fantasy games you chose your job(class). In all of them you customized your equipment from a massive array which changed your stats, allowed you to learn new skills or magic in some cases. Far more so than you can in Legend of Zelda.

What about Secret of Mana then?

[banishingseraph]

It's clear that several of the points being made here are getting convoluted. So a step back is needed. GinnyN while you do take on the role of someone for an RPG that in itself doesn't make it an RPG. Halo is an FPS that has you take on the role of Master Chief but it is still just an FPS. Blackgoat has the idea that I was debating towards. The RPG is based on a D&D like system that requires stats for combat. Stats that you increase through defeating enemies. Not just bosses, every enemy that there is ends up being important to the experience you get to increase the stats of your character.

I would also like to concede the point that the Zelda series has played an important role in Action RPGs. While not being one it has inspired the real time combat that people are able to engage in on those games. With that said MusicallyInspired most RPGs are based around a sense of customization. In the RPG that doesn't allow much customization in the abilities that your characters possess the idea was to use the unique abilities of certain characters in your as you saw fit to build the party you wanted to try to beat the game with. Generally this is the lowest amount of customization that an RPG would use.

[MusicallyInspired]

Then my answer is the only types of RPGs I like are those akin to The Elder Scrolls. Real-time combat. I just can't stand turn-based-ness. This is also why I could not get into Knights of the Old Republic or any MMO title for that matter.

[SHODANFreeman]

So the Longshot doesn't count as a Hookshot upgrade? Or the Bow and the Slingshot? Or the Power Bracelet and the two gauntlets? Or the fish scales to dive farther underwater, and to a lesser extent, the iron boots and the blue tunic to breathe and walk underwater indefinitely.

None of that makes it an RPG, unless you also think getting the super shotgun and the blue key in Doom 2 makes Doom 2 an RPG.

What about Secret of Mana then?

Secret of Mana is far closer to an RPG than Zelda, it has xp based on kills, gear, etc. but it is still at best an action RPG rather than a traditional one.

[MusicallyInspired]

None of that makes it an RPG, unless you also think getting the super shotgun and the blue key in Doom 2 makes Doom 2 an RPG.

As I said:

I never said it was, I was just pointing out the error in stating that Zelda doesn't have upgradable items.

Secret of Mana is far closer to an RPG than Zelda, it has xp based on kills, gear, etc. but it is still at best an action RPG rather than a traditional one.

So you're saying all RPG's MUST be turn-based to be considered a "traditional" RPG?

[SHODANFreeman]

So you're saying all RPG's MUST be turn-based to be considered a "traditional" RPG?

No, many are real-time, but just mashing the "attack" button endlessly without any use of any kind of skills or spells or anything isn't really the hallmark of an RPG.

[gryfuguy]

A HA HAHA HA! HA HAHA!

Uh, no.

[tabstis]

You should make a parody of RPGs as such in the style of an adventure game with maybe some RPG game elements fused in like equipment.

NO LEVELING THOUGH unless funny in some way

[taumel]

Maybe Deathspank?

"Better than Lord of the Rings"
-- Ron's Mom.

[Avistew]

I've actually always wondered about the word "RPG". That is "Role-Playing Game", right? Well, isn't every single game by telltale, for instance, a game where you play a role?
I totally get it for Tabletop RPGs. You're becoming a character you invented. To some extent, the videogame version of tabletop RPGs (WoW and the like) make sense to me as well.

But the rest? Apparently what makes a RPG is that you have turn-based battles, level grinding and stuff like that. Which I don't get at all. Maybe someone could explain to me the terminology here. Why is it a RPG if I have to fight randomly when trying to get someplace, and 90% of the time playing isn't advancing the story, but fighting the same enemies over and over again until I'm strong enough to advance the story?

I definitely like action/adventure games like Zelda more. This being said, I liked the Paper Mario games and the Mario RPG ones, but I felt like there was a lot less level grinding in these.
I also like FF12 more because the fights weren't turn-based.

I wouldn't have a problem with Telltale making RPGs, but I don't know if that's the direction they want to take.

[SHODANFreeman]

I've actually always wondered about the word "RPG". That is "Role-Playing Game", right? Well, isn't every single game by telltale, for instance, a game where you play a role?
I totally get it for Tabletop RPGs. You're becoming a character you invented. To some extent, the videogame version of tabletop RPGs (WoW and the like) make sense to me as well.

But the rest? Apparently what makes a RPG is that you have turn-based battles, level grinding and stuff like that. Which I don't get at all. Maybe someone could explain to me the terminology here. Why is it a RPG if I have to fight randomly when trying to get someplace, and 90% of the time playing isn't advancing the story, but fighting the same enemies over and over again until I'm strong enough to advance the story?

If you want to get into that, what makes an adventure game an adventure game? You have to have items and use them on other items in order to have an adventure? You have to have long winding dialogue trees in order to have an adventure?

[Avistew]

If you want to get into that, what makes an adventure game an adventure game? You have to have items and use them on other items in order to have an adventure? You have to have long winding dialogue trees in order to have an adventure?

Yeah, actually I used to call stuff like Zelda "adventure games". For me, basically, an adventure game was a game with a story, an adventure in it. RPGs being a sub-category of adventure games, and "point-and-click adventure games" being their own sub-category too.

I'm fine using the words that are the "right ones", I was just wondering how it came to be. There is actually less roleplaying in FF games than there is in point-and click games. Because in point and click games you need to think like the main character, therefore you roleplay. In FF games the story is more linear and you get cutscenes whenever the characters are "in character", otherwise they're interchangeable.

[GuruGuru214]

I've actually always wondered about the word "RPG". That is "Role-Playing Game", right?

Wait, what? I thought we were talking about rocket-propelled grenades!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Rpg-7.jpg

[MusicallyInspired]

I think an RPG is "traditionally" defined by the ability to assume a role of a character that you design or customise in some way. Whether it be facial features, clothes, abilities/skills, race, etc. According to what I was told earlier, anyway.

[Avistew]

Hum, so it wouldn't be about playing the role of an existing character as much as... "creating" that role, in a way? Is that what you mean?

I guess that makes sense, although you don't really customise them very much in FF12. I remember being annoyed that all characters could do everything, you could buy the whole grid for some of them. Specialising them by sacrificing something for something else would have been so much more fun.

[Hassat Hunter]

Then my answer is the only types of RPGs I like are those akin to The Elder Scrolls. Real-time combat. I just can't stand turn-based-ness. This is also why I could not get into Knights of the Old Republic or any MMO title for that matter.
The Kotors are in realtime. However there is a turn-system under it, which you can ignore if you never press space bar ;).
(They allow it, in Baldur's Gate, you're dead meat)

[MusicallyInspired]

The Kotors are in realtime. However there is a turn-system under it, which you can ignore if you never press space bar ;).
(They allow it, in Baldur's Gate, you're dead meat)

It's not the same. I played 10 minutes of KOTOR after excitedly buying it from Steam because of all the hype it had got and was severely disappointed. $10 I'll never see again. At least I didn't get it brand new.....but if I did I could have sold it again.....

[prizna]

anyone here like Fable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable_(video_game))

[GuruGuru214]

At least I didn't get it brand new.....but if I did I could have sold it again.....

Don't let Yare hear you talking like that.

[MusicallyInspired]

Ok ok ok...I could have returned it (yeah right). Better? :)

[banishingseraph]

anyone here like Fable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable_(video_game))

We don't mention that game around here. It was a major let down. I understand that the hype machine will build things up a bit but what I was sold was only a fraction of what I was advertised. They billed it as Elder Scrolls but with consequences for your actions and an ever progressing world and I ended up buying a demo for that game. I know it's sour grapes but I feel it's an over-hyped and over-rated game. It broke no new ground and didn't bring any new mechanics to the gaming world. It was retreading the same ground after promising new and original.

Once again as I said sour grapes but it really bugs me.

[Rawr]

I enjoyed Fable. Fable 2, on the other hand, well, I'm not even going to go there.

[baf]

The terminology is what it is for historical reasons, not because it makes sense today. Adventure games are called adventure games because the whole genre was spawned by a game called "Adventure". If Crowther and Woods had instead decided to call their cave-crawl "Expedition", we'd be referring to Telltale's products as point-and-click expedition games. Role-Playing Games were originally an offshoot of miniatures wargaming, which puts each player at the head of an entire army; in that context, the idea that you're playing the role of a single character was one of the new form's chief distinguishing features.

[Avistew]

The terminology is what it is for historical reasons, not because it makes sense today. Adventure games are called adventure games because the whole genre was spawned by a game called "Adventure". If Crowther and Woods had instead decided to call their cave-crawl "Expedition", we'd be referring to Telltale's products as point-and-click expedition games. Role-Playing Games were originally an offshoot of miniatures wargaming, which puts each player at the head of an entire army; in that context, the idea that you're playing the role of a single character was one of the new form's chief distinguishing features.

Thanks! That's interesting.

[GuruGuru214]

I thought it was because they were derived from tabletop RPGs, which are also heavily based on a stat system and in which you really are role-playing as your character.

[baf]

Right. I didn't mean that computer RPGs evolved directly from miniatures wargames. Rather, computer RPGs started as an attempt to imitate the mechanics of tabletop RPGs, and tabletop RPGs started as a development from miniatures games.

Heck, even today, the most popular computer RPG in existence is directly based on a wargame: Warcraft.

[banishingseraph]

Actually that makes sense. I had looked up the history of D&D one time and I had read that their was a version of D&D that was around even before the books. They played a tabletop game that was then laid down years later as D&D. It would make sense that it evolved from miniature wargames because if you can't spatially keep track of a character, combat becomes very muddled.

[Remolay]

We don't mention that game around here. It was a major let down. I understand that the hype machine will build things up a bit but what I was sold was only a fraction of what I was advertised. They billed it as Elder Scrolls but with consequences for your actions and an ever progressing world and I ended up buying a demo for that game. I know it's sour grapes but I feel it's an over-hyped and over-rated game. It broke no new ground and didn't bring any new mechanics to the gaming world. It was retreading the same ground after promising new and original.

Once again as I said sour grapes but it really bugs me.

If you actually had to buy a demo, you got ripped off.


anyways, Demos aren't really a good way to judge a game. I remember the Demo for Rayman 2, which was a lot wonkier than the actual full game.

[banishingseraph]

If you actually had to buy a demo, you got ripped off.


anyways, Demos aren't really a good way to judge a game. I remember the Demo for Rayman 2, which was a lot wonkier than the actual full game.

It wasn't that I played a demo for the game. I was making a reference to the fact that what I was playing in the actual game was a demo compared to what was advertised.

[Zonino]

Heck, even today, the most popular computer RPG in existence is directly based on a wargame: Warcraft.

I think I remember reading that Warcraft came about because Games Workshop had asked Blizzard do make a game based on Fantasy Warhammer, but then pulled out close to the end. Rather than scrap a perfectly good game, Blizzard tweaked it about and released it under the name Warcraft.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Also I'm detecting a lot of hate for RPGs in this topic? Why? Some are perfectly good games. Yes, even the JRPGs with their androgynous angsty leads.

[SHODANFreeman]

I think I remember reading that Warcraft came about because Games Workshop had asked Blizzard do make a game based on Fantasy Warhammer, but then pulled out close to the end. Rather than scrap a perfectly good game, Blizzard tweaked it about and released it under the name Warcraft.

The rest, as they say, is history.

I thought it was Blizzard that asked Games Workshop.

[Zonino]

Well like I said I thought that's what it was, but you could well be right. To the internets!

<_<

>_>

What do you mean we're already there?

[Avistew]

My problems with RPGs are that the fights take too long due to being turn based and having an animation before and after every time of them, and you need to fight way, way too much. You're not advancing the story and fighting along the way as part of the story, you're actually interrupting the story, going to fight again and again to level up, then going back to the story.
Including when the story involves matters that are "extremely urgent" and you end up spending a week in real time leveling up enough to keep going.

That, and as far as the FF ones go, well they're just way too long. I stop caring for the story after a few weeks of playing, and then the process of either having to start again from the start, or having to pick up when I don't remember where I am, what happened before and what I'm supposed to do next, are too daunting and I just never play it again. So I never know how the story ends or anything like that, but that's okay because I usually stopped caring about the story a long time ago, since it makes up 1% of the playing time.

And that's unfortunate because the stories usually seem very interesting. I think I might want to buy the FF games if they were novels. At least I imagine there wouldn't be ten chapters of "You use fireball. The enemy takes 10 damage. The enemy uses cure and heals 10 damage. You use slash. The enemy takes 15 damage. The enemy uses universe collapse. Your fighter is dead." and so on, for each line where something is actually happening.

More story, less fight, and less animations before and after a fight, and I'll be much happier with RPGs. And I dislike how you can't avoid the enemy. The best you can do is run away, so you still get the pre- and post-fight animations.

[SHODANFreeman]

90% of the point of an RPG is the combat. The combat is strategic and fun, whether it's completely turn-based, active turn-based, or real-time, you have to think on your feet about what skills to use in what situations, and your incentive for wanting to do more combat is that your character becomes more powerful by doing so, and everyone wants to be more powerful.

[Alcoremortis]

The only RPGs that I've been able to complete were the Knights of the Old Republic games. Both games were pretty fun and I didn't even mind semi-turn based combat because it was pretty intuitive. Though, I did spend a really long time finishing each game (about a week) when most games take me about three days to complete, max.

[Hassat Hunter]

Heck, even today, the most popular computer RPG in existence is directly based on a wargame: Warcraft.
Okay, even aside from the fact that it's reputable that MMORPG's are "true" RPG's, what?
Warcraft is an RTS. Sure, they made a (non-digital)game of it later, but the computer game was there first.
And, it resembles Diablo (their hack&slash) more than it does Warcraft itself.

Hmmm, I believe there was I point I was trying to make, but I can't quite recall it.

To all people hating RPG's; go play Baldur's Gate II. Or Planescape: Torment (most dialogue heavy game ever though). Or if you can't handle turn-based the more recent Alpha Protocol.

[Rawr]

My problems with RPGs are that the fights take too long due to being turn based and having an animation before and after every time of them, and you need to fight way, way too much. You're not advancing the story and fighting along the way as part of the story, you're actually interrupting the story, going to fight again and again to level up, then going back to the story.
Including when the story involves matters that are "extremely urgent" and you end up spending a week in real time leveling up enough to keep going.

That, and as far as the FF ones go, well they're just way too long. I stop caring for the story after a few weeks of playing, and then the process of either having to start again from the start, or having to pick up when I don't remember where I am, what happened before and what I'm supposed to do next, are too daunting and I just never play it again. So I never know how the story ends or anything like that, but that's okay because I usually stopped caring about the story a long time ago, since it makes up 1% of the playing time.

And that's unfortunate because the stories usually seem very interesting. I think I might want to buy the FF games if they were novels. At least I imagine there wouldn't be ten chapters of "You use fireball. The enemy takes 10 damage. The enemy uses cure and heals 10 damage. You use slash. The enemy takes 15 damage. The enemy uses universe collapse. Your fighter is dead." and so on, for each line where something is actually happening.

More story, less fight, and less animations before and after a fight, and I'll be much happier with RPGs. And I dislike how you can't avoid the enemy. The best you can do is run away, so you still get the pre- and post-fight animations.
In most cases the original turn-based combat is becoming less and less popular in JRPGs. The most recent Final Fantasy's, XII and XIII as extremely controversial as they are for it(Fans don't take well to change, apparently), are a lot more fast paced than its predecessors. You're still selecting commands from a list, however it's done in real time. If you sit there on the menu without moving, then you'll die.

Random battles have near enough died out too, for the better I believe. Consequently, you can run around the enemy on the screen in most cases, if you don't wish to battle.

WRPG's on the other hand never had turn based battle to begin with really, it was always more micromanagement like that from an RTS except on a much smaller scale, and you don't even go into another 'screen' for the battle. Battles flow quickly from one to the next as you traverse through the dungeon. Storys are never quite as deep as JRPG's, however you get a certain amount of choice in what you do next, which can impact the story to an extent.

I think if you tried the genre again playing it's most recent additions, you could probably like them much more, as the genre has evolved, despite popular belief.

[SHODANFreeman]

Okay, even aside from the fact that it's reputable that MMORPG's are "true" RPG's, what?
Warcraft is an RTS. Sure, they made a (non-digital)game of it later, but the computer game was there first.
And, it resembles Diablo (their hack&slash) more than it does Warcraft itself.

What's with the scare quotes? Why wouldn't an MMORPG be a true RPG? The combat is highly tactical, involving the use of tons of skills in a semi-realtime environment, as well as extensive gear system, skill progression, leveling up via experience, and tons and tons of NPCs.

[Avistew]

I think if you tried the genre again playing it's most recent additions, you could probably like them much more, as the genre has evolved, despite popular belief.

Actually, I have played FFXII and I did like it better, but it was still much too long for me. I stopped after 100 hours or so, and I wasn't even trying to do the side quests or anything.
Still, looks to me like these are the exceptions. We'll see if they become the new rule, I guess.

[Rawr]

Actually, I have played FFXII and I did like it better, but it was still much too long for me. I stopped after 100 hours or so, and I wasn't even trying to do the side quests or anything.
Still, looks to me like these are the exceptions. We'll see if they become the new rule, I guess.
Not really. The only fairly recent console based games which still have turn-based combat are Lost Odyssey and Persona 4, and even they aren't that new, they came out in 2007. Excluding any remakes of old games, that is. With that, in terms of JRPGs there's still a massive list, within the last year there has been Resonance of Fate, Star Ocean 4, White Knight Chronicles and Tales of Vesperia. Then for WRPGs there has been Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins. However, if the game being too long is a problem, then maybe RPGs aren't for you. Although admittedly Final Fantasy XII is one of the longer rpg's out there. The majority of them last for 30-60hours.

[Gibbeynator]

I would totally love to see an episodic Quest for Glory series from Telltale.

[baf]

Okay, even aside from the fact that it's reputable that MMORPG's are "true" RPG's, what?
Warcraft is an RTS. Sure, they made a (non-digital)game of it later, but the computer game was there first.


So RTS games don't count as wargames? Okay. I tend to think of "wargame" as a broad category containing anything where you're controlling an entire side in a war, including sub-categories like miniatures games, war-themed board games like Risk and Diplomacy, and computer strategy games both realtime and turn-based. Likewise, I think of RPG as a broad category containing sub-groups like tabletop RPGs, LARPs, CRPGs, MMORPGs. But the way I classify things in my head may or may not match up to the way the rest of the world thinks of them, especially where it concerns the RTS genre, in which my knowledge is pretty out-of-date. (I just recently started playing Red Alert. The first one.) I think I'm on firmer ground with the RPG sub-groups, though, because those all have the words "role playing" somewhere in their name.

There's a tabletop Warcraft game? I didn't know. Can't say I'm surprised, though. There's probably a Warcraft CCG and Warcraft pogs and stuff.

[Brainiac]

I would totally love to see an episodic Quest for Glory series from Telltale.

Considering the Sierra origins of that series, I doubt it will happen. Still, there's always the Coles' upcoming School for Heroes (http://www.theschoolforheroes.com/questlog/the-silmarian-sun/).

[Hassat Hunter]

What's with the scare quotes? Why wouldn't an MMORPG be a true RPG? The combat is highly tactical, involving the use of tons of skills in a semi-realtime environment, as well as extensive gear system, skill progression, leveling up via experience, and tons and tons of NPCs.
The lack of proper story, choice and consequences etc. MMORPG's are generally pure grinding and runs, I would even consider a Hack&Slash like Diablo or Dungeon Siege more RPG than any MMORPG.
The Old Republic is supposed to try to invogorate the MMORPG sector with plot and consequences and such, but I am skeptical.
So RTS games don't count as wargames?
I would more think about the board miniature games yeah. I thought you might have thought the wargame was before the RTS, hence the term.
Seeing how you didn't even knew there was a wargame... nevermind.

@ Avistew: Try Alpha Protocol (more RPG than shooter) or Mass Effect II (more shooter than RPG).

[Avistew]

I probably won't go out of my way to get them, but I'm always happy to try a game if I get an opportunity.

[SHODANFreeman]

The lack of proper story, choice and consequences etc. MMORPG's are generally pure grinding and runs, I would even consider a Hack&Slash like Diablo or Dungeon Siege more RPG than any MMORPG.
The Old Republic is supposed to try to invogorate the MMORPG sector with plot and consequences and such, but I am skeptical.

I would more think about the board miniature games yeah. I thought you might have thought the wargame was before the RTS, hence the term.
Seeing how you didn't even knew there was a wargame... nevermind.

@ Avistew: Try Alpha Protocol (more RPG than shooter) or Mass Effect II (more shooter than RPG).

Diablo has infinitely less character customization, and infinitely less combat strategy, and barely has a storyline at all. An MMO typically has at least one major overarching storyline happening at any point, plus hundreds and hundreds of pages of quest description storyline spanning multiple continents. How is Diablo more of an RPG than a typical MMORPG?

[Hassat Hunter]

plus hundreds and hundreds of pages of quest description storyline spanning multiple continents.
Fetch me X of Y?
How is Diablo more of an RPG than a typical MMORPG?
A storyline (however thin) that does resolve around you. Which isn't quite possible in an MMORPG where every single dude does the same campaign, at the same time.
Which allows you to, you know, play a Role.

... just my opinion...

[Chyron8472]

If one more person calls Zelda an RPG, I'ma start breakin' things.

This.

I love RPGs. I love Final Fantasy 7, 8, 9, 12 (not played 13 yet,) Dragon Quest 8, Tales of Symphonia, Tales of the Abyss, Kingdom Hearts 1 & 2, Xenosaga...

...and I love Zelda. alot. Zelda's awesome. but if someone else says that it's an RPG, I will sic Sister Agnes and her piratey face on you.


This being said, I don't see the current iteration of the Telltale Tool working well at being used in making an RPG, especially a Monkey Island RPG.

[SHODANFreeman]

Fetch me X of Y?

A storyline (however thin) that does resolve around you. Which isn't quite possible in an MMORPG where every single dude does the same campaign, at the same time.
Which allows you to, you know, play a Role.

... just my opinion...

If you've played an mmo for more than 5 seconds, you would know that there are tons and tons of quest chains with actual storyline, especially in LOTRO. In LOTRO specifically, your character plays a key role in advancing the storyline via "book" quests, which actually follow the storyline of the actual books, slightly altered, of course, to include your character as an integral part of it. Many of these quests are "instanced" which means it takes place in a separate place than the main game, and unless you're grouped with someone, you won't see any other players around. The objective of a quest also does not matter, I have yet to see ANY RPG that didn't involve quests like "Go here, kill this monster" or "Find this item" etc. Besides, even if the quest is just "kill 10 boars", there's still elaborate quest dialog stating why, exactly, you need to kill the boars etc. It's no different than doing a side quest to find a little girl's lost dog in a "real" RPG, you're just doing something an NPC wants you to for a reward, that's it.

The number of people playing the game at once doesn't matter, it's just playing an RPG with other players at the same time, and sometimes doing group content with them.

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, I have played some MMO's more than 5 seconds (although not nearly much longer, cause I can't stand them), although that doesn't include LOTR:O.

I thought only Guild Wars used instanting, oh well...

[tredlow]

We already have Hothead, do we need Telltale to do it also? If they did, who's gonna make the Point-and-Click Adventure games?

Well, a lot of other companies I guess, but I prefer Telltale adventure games.