Your opinions on 304? [SPOILERS]

[Hatley]

Mine:Godlike.
The return of Bluster Blaster, the comical Sal abuse and a plot twistier than a corkscrew (Yeah, cheesy comparison) made this one of my favourites, who'd thought that the ultimate villian would be Demon max?

[Avel]

I think we all secretly hoped for it, but never thought we'd see the day.

[tabstis]

I loved the whole episode but it went too quickly! Also, I will be really really sad if Papierwaite, Skunkape or Sal are dead. If any of them are gone, I will go into mourning for days :(

[doodinthemood]

I loved it, especially the plot - twistier than a party game requiring a white sheet with coloured dots on it.

Didn't actually think much of bluster blaster. Played almost no part at all in the story. Everything else though was wonderful. Truly laughed out loud, and was gripped the whole way through.

[Avel]

Ditto on Bluster Blaster, but I am kinda waiting to see WTF is up with his future, though.

Edit: Also waiting on PSN to update so I can see if the trophies lead anywhere interesting.

[doodinthemood]

Hey yeah!

I'm also thinking "NO MAX, NOT THE CHRYSLER BUILDING" from ep 1 is promising for ep 5 ;)

[Cheri]

Loved it loved it loved it, by far the best episode of the season.

[Avel]

I may need to go back through season 2, but this may now be my best Telltale episode of all time. At least until the finale.

[Hungryfreak]

Every episode this season is the best episode of all time and they just keep getting better, in my mind. I particularly love the flavor of the final act.

[allaboardfilms]

What an absolutely brilliant episode. Everything was spot on, from the reveal of Dr. Norrington (that cutscene actually had me quite nervous), to the episode's villain, to the music, to the entire story. My favorite joke of the episode was one that I saw coming before using a psychic power: the fact that Papierwaite's security code was "foot snake squiggle squiggle bird" I really, really, can't wait for the next episode. Hopefuly it's out next month.

[BoneFreak]

The episode was confusing. At first.

But then, the plot stuff cleared up quite nicely. But, damn, that ending. This episode is composed of some creepier then Puzzle Agent stuff. And that's a good accomplishment.

I was actually wondering right at the final part of the game, "Man, how will the season finale top this?", and then the last cutscene showed me how.

Favorite Episode of the Season.
I mean, of Sam and Max.
I mean, of all the games Telltale has made.

[doodinthemood]

Just remembered sam and max impersonating bosco. Classic XD

[mateo360]

I liked it but unfortunately it seems to still be very buggy in a lot of places.

[BoneFreak]

I liked it but unfortunately it seems to still be very buggy in a lot of places.

I only had a bug where there was a floating card by the dimensional destabilizer.

[Graywing]

Really really loved this episode, there where so many well written hidden jokes, the puzzles (except two that had design flaws) made a lot of sense. And the bugs I've encountered are to small to mention. This is my favorite episode of season 3 by far!

[Nintomster]

Absolutely loved every minute of it. The puzzles, music, story everything!

Originally posted by allaboardfilms
My favorite joke of the episode was one that I saw coming before using a psychic power: the fact that Papierwaite's security code was "foot snake squiggle squiggle bird"

I thought that too. :D
Although I was sad when Papierwaite died. NO! He can't die. He is too awesome to die!!!
I loved the twists as well. It was very funny, but I was disappointed about Bluster Blaster. Too short an appearance. I am happy, just because he was back. Oh, I can't wait for episode 5! Argh, the next episode might be super epic! This episode is an instant favourite for me! The best Telltale episode full stop. Brilliant job Telltale! Brilliant!

[Mirko]

I'm amazed. It's the first episode since a long time I played through in one go. I was a bit disappointed by Episode 3, but this one is great again. I really liked the throwbacks or references to other games the TF2 thing, "Unholy this" and I think i heard something the Drive-Through-Whale from SBCG4AP said . Buster Blaster is also great, when he talks about his adventures with Bosco and Bosco's fate. Reading his mind is also great. Now i have to go to bed. It's half past midnight over here and i must go to work tomorrow.

[xbskid]

Yay asset crossovers! Unholy this!

[Graywing]

I found Flint "interrogating" Stinky (as performed by sam and max) hilarious. Chuckled at the great performance of Romeo and Juliet. And don't forget our dearest annihilator buster blaster! And good guy Sal! And.. And.. and...

UGH could ramble on for ages, way too many great scenes in this one.

[toa1995]

i loved this episode and it will be my favorite for now (waiting to see if 305 will top this)

[Falanca]

Holy damn, wasn't the ending creepy? I appreciated the thing a lot, but kinda made me miss the good old cartoon sillyness of the previous seasons. The whole thing went from "awesomesauce" to "i want my mommy" after the very first piece of line coming from Charlie Ho-Tep himself. Seeing Max transforming into a squid-like creature made me really sad. It's always good not to develop a bond to a fictional character whose fiction is known for catastrophic plot-twists.

[bugsplee2.0]

This episode was EPIC!

Also, did you guys know about Bosco's first name, "Roscoe"?

[Ophenix]

AWESOME EP! Love it >:3

[Yadda]

Okay, after feeling like the season started off on a high note (301), fell on its face (302), and then pulled itself off the floor and got back on its feet (303)... It pulled this out of its arse and kicked us all in the pants. 304 officially is the best episode so far. By, like, a mile. And 305 looks to be all sorts of awesome. I mean, it's gonna have to be if it wants to top THAT.

I mean, just... Jeebus. After the big reveal with Charlie Ho-Tep, everything took a turn for the weird, in a good way. I mean, I doubt that anyone could have even TRIED to expect that. I mean, HE was the 'Master?!' The ventriloquist dummy?! I doubt that most of us knew that son of a redwood was ALIVE! And then they top it off with the grand finale psychic battle... This felt like it was epic enough to be 305! And they actually could have ended it here, and I'd've felt satisfied if I had paid for only four episodes, until... Max mentions he swallowed some of Yog-Soggoth-knows-what and turned into that... THING. And now I'm stuck here wondering how the hell they're going to resolve that plot-twist AND top this episode. I mean, HOW THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO TOP THIS.

Seriously.

[Falanca]

... high note (301), fell on its face (302)...

I still think 301 is the weakest and 302 is one of the strongest episodes of the season o_ô

And, god, Charlie is a sleazy piece of wood, planning this for a hundred years, and a possible thousands of years before that incident happened

[Yadda]

Eh, 302 was good in its own way, but I just liked the atmosphere of 301 better.

[toa1995]

When Charlie started talking i thought to myself "I KNEW HE WAS EVIL!"

[Flah]

The one thing that blew me away more than anything else is that they actually managed to make me feel sorry for Girl Stinky, thanks to that last cutscene after the credits. And all it took was the presumed death of the most sympathetic character ever to appear in the game.

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, for me 301 was good, 302 better, 303 a real letdown.

And now 304 topples 302. Yay! And yeah, I was also wondering at the end; how are they going to topple this for 305? Afterwards, I can't wait the whole month darnit! :p

[DrRocketGenius]

I liked it but unfortunately it seems to still be very buggy in a lot of places.

I only had one bug. It was when they were trying to shoot at the coffee mug. MAX DISSAPEARED AND THERE WAS A FLOATING, SHOOTING GUN. Telltale, whatever you do, never attempt to fix that bug. It was amazing.

[homsar8]

To start off, the episode: purely epicly awsome. Second, I said it in an earlier thread, I knew that Charlie Hotep was evil and that he would be the villain of 304 and since I said it right before 303 I claim rights to having said it first. Lastly, I can't imagine how the next episode will be because it seems that the only villain left is Max and I just can't imagine an entire episode without Max with you.

[Avel]

Did anyone notice that Harry Moleman appears to have grown a more palatable personality this episode, like maybe the construction worker's remnants seeped into him during his sauna visit.

[fizzucker]

The one thing that blew me away more than anything else is that they actually managed to make me feel sorry for Girl Stinky, thanks to that last cutscene after the credits. And all it took was the presumed death of the most sympathetic character ever to appear in the game.


Indeed. Sal is the most likable guy besides our two main heroes, and the fact that the two were apparently in love and Girl Stinky calling for Sal being the last thing you see makes me feel really sorry for her and made me hope Sal was not dead.

The episode was great. The dimension hopping, the future visions, the slight return of interrogation (I immediately went for the Noir option), all leading up to an awesome psychic battle on top of the Statue of Liberty! We then get a fake out of Max dying, as a call back to 303, and then....the final cutscene.

Max transforms, Sam runs for his life, th Sam Clone clutching at the bunny doll gets stepped on as if it were a metaphor as to what was happening to the relationship of Sam & Max now that Max has become something else.... I cannot wait for the finale

[Rather Dashing]

301, 302, and 303 are all clumped together at the very bottom of my list of Sam and Max episodes. They're all style, no substance, and they're just plain boring. The first one seemed the best because the shiny new game smell and the appeal of the new visuals, music style, etc would hit you harder and carry the weak game a bit farther than it can in later installments.

304, on the other hand, is practically on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's up there as a peer of episode 204: Chariots of the Dogs. They go to the same parties and one doesn't absolutely embarrass the other and it's totally great.

[Breakman]

Now this episode... THIS episode... This is what I'm talking about! This is the first one of this season that I actually like. There's actual puzzles in this one (though they were just trial-and-error type) which gives it so many bonus points in my book, you don't even know.

I know that from the previous episodes, all the characters received some new action and facial animations. This episode took great advantage of that. Also, the added detail to the rooms (hot spots and the general activity of the room without interaction from the player) were shining. (I still want more unimportant hot spots to get Sam and Max talking aimlessly and/or with non sequiturs.)

But, the same problem I have with the other episodes arises in this one: too emotional, almost getting touchy-feely. It feels like there's now four different romantic sub-plots in this season. I barely tolerated Season 2's one. Now I have four at the same time to try to understand. I hate that.

And I'm still disappointed with no song and/or dance number.

Despite all the bugs and typos (seriously, why is there so many? I don't remember as many in the previous seasons...), some uncomfortable scenes and I'm not talking about the ones with Girl Stinky and Sal or when Charlie decided to talk , and some odd comments from Max, it's a solid episode. This is probably the only episode for this season I recommend playing.

301, 302, and 303 are all clumped together at the very bottom of my list of Sam and Max episodes. They're all style, no substance, and they're just plain boring. The first one seemed the best because the shiny new game smell and the appeal of the new visuals, music style, etc would hit you harder and carry the weak game a bit farther than it can in later installments.

304, on the other hand, is practically on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's up there as a peer of episode 204: Chariots of the Dogs. They go to the same parties and one doesn't absolutely embarrass the other and it's totally great.

I hope you don't mind me doing this... ::hugs:: ^_^

[Alcoremortis]

Somehow, I don't think that Sal is dead. He is a cockroach after all.

Also, Demon Max at the end was brilliant. My very first thought was: this is awesome. :D

[Secret Fawful]

I loved everything up to the ending. I loved the boss fight but not the very end with Max. I mean it wasn't bad, just predictable.

Oh forgot to mention, but my favorite part was taking Sam through the dimensional destabalizer or whatever it was, anyway I loved seeing his reactions to the Dark Dimension. Very creepy in a dark humor way, it was almost like something Annable would do.

[Rather Dashing]

I hope you don't mind me doing this... ::hugs:: ^_^
Haha, no problem. It's great knowing that someone else thinks even remotely the same way about Season Three. It's kind of refreshing. :D

[tabstis]

Did anyone notice that Harry Moleman appears to have grown a more palatable personality this episode, like maybe the construction worker's remnants seeped into him during his sauna visit.

I think Harry Moleman will play a major role in the final episode. He is the only one immune to the powers of the elder gods...

[Avel]

I loved everything up to the ending. I loved the boss fight but not the very end with Max. I mean it wasn't bad, just predictable.

Second time Telltale did that too. SCP ftw.

[onlyamonkey]

Haha, no problem. It's great knowing that someone else thinks even remotely the same way about Season Three. It's kind of refreshing. :D

Maybe you could go to the same parties? They are mostly in the same basement.

Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because you either has some emotional nostalgic problems or a compulsion to go against the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.

S3 is graphicly superior, tons easier to navigate, doesn't run on the same massproduct concept (get 3 of those, complete 3 trials every damn episode) that the last two seasons did and is actually very varied and inventive in the storyline and how to solve puzzles. Also, it is more directed towards an older audience where as s1-2 practicly was just cartoonish violence at best and had that disturbing sesamy street mix of talk for grown ups and physical stuff for children.

[Hubert]

Anyone else catch a possible "Darmok" reference? "Shaka-etc..." (can't remember the rest...been a few hours), as in, "Shaka, when the walls fell"?

[Giant Tope]

Maybe you could go to the same parties? They are mostly in the same basement.

Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because you either has some emotional nostalgic problems or a compulsion to go against the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.

S3 is graphicly superior, tons easier to navigate, doesn't run on the same massproduct concept (get 3 of those, complete 3 trials every damn episode) that the last two seasons did and is actually very varied and inventive in the storyline and how to solve puzzles. Also, it is more directed towards an older audience where as s1-2 practicly was just cartoonish violence at best and had that disturbing sesamy street mix of talk for grown ups and physical stuff for children.

Calm down? It's just his opinion. Jeez. And it's not even like I totally agree with him.

[GuruGuru214]

Beyond the Alley of the Dolls is a sucker punch on par with The Trial and Execution of Guybrush Threepwood. And I mean that in the best way possible. Really, when you think about it, the endings of both left us with a feeling of loss for one of our most beloved characters, though in incredibly different ways. Plus both of them featured the unexpected return of "Unholy this!", but that's something else entirely.

I can only hope that The City That Dares Not Sleep will likewise be epic on par with Rise of the Pirate God.

[doodinthemood]

^yup to that last comment. Telltale has now made it so 305 has to be nothing less than absolute awesomeness or it could spoil the series.

[Rather Dashing]

Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because
"You actually agree with the only valid opinion on the season(Mine, of course), because..."

you either has some emotional nostalgic problems
I don't even know what this means.

or a compulsion to go against the masses.
I don't know where this even comes from. I obviously enjoyed episode 4. Is there some secret backlash against the fourth episode that I'm unaware of that could lead someone to assume that I'd changed the tide? I haven't seen any such thing, in fact, I've seen at least one other appraisal that sees Episode 4 as a major turnaround and a few more that say it's the best of the season.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.
It has to do with the fact that I have gotten myself bored several times while playing episodes 1, 2, and 3. I really was left not wanting to play because I kept knowing exactly what to do and why after a maximum of one step of investigation, it was about as dull as a "puzzle" game can be. Episode 4 was a marvelous return to form in regards to the actual gameplay, and I don't see how enjoying the fourth episode to a very great degree fits into your theory of false opinions forged to craft an alter-ego that doesn't like things. Do people enjoy pretending not to like things? I wasn't aware that this was a common hobby.

S3 is graphicly superior, tons easier to navigate, doesn't run on the same massproduct concept (get 3 of those, complete 3 trials every damn episode) that the last two seasons did and is actually very varied and inventive in the storyline and how to solve puzzles. Also, it is more directed towards an older audience where as s1-2 practicly was just cartoonish violence at best and had that disturbing sesamy street mix of talk for grown ups and physical stuff for children.
1. Graphics are a presentation thing, they are FAR behind puzzles in terms of importance after you get to the point that all characters and goals are represented in such a way that you can tell what every object on the screen is. If a man enjoys Chess more than he enjoys CandyLand, a CandyLand board made from the finest materials by the greatest artisans will not change the fact that CandyLand is a more shallow and less fun game than Chess.
2. I actually have found this season somewhat more difficult to navigate. The post-Direct Control games have a fondness for jump-cutting to awkward camera angles and wobbling the camera just enough to be a bit disorienting.
3. Use Future Vision; Follow Instructions, before Episode 4 this was the way many of the puzzles worked. A lot of the time, in Season Three, you'll solve puzzles in very much the same one-step way, over and over again.
4. I don't understand how you can think that either game is aimed any differently than the others?

[greenheadphones]

This episode completely freaked me out, gave me much glee with the gags, surprised me to no end, make me quiver, almost made me cry.
And just the entire second half blew my mind. I didn't think TellTale was going to be all in our faces with the awesomeness presented in 304. I have never actually HEARD Sam laugh before in-game. The transition from the previous episodes to this one was just phenomenal.

My senior year of high school will not be bearable until 305 is released.

[Hubert]

...I absolutely hated that I couldn't use Futurevision on the Statue of Liberty at any point for a Planet of the Apes reference. It was the first thing I tried when I reached the docks, and I kept trying right up until the end, :(; I fully expected to see the head on the ground, and Sam screaming, "You really finally did it! Damn you all to hell!", lol

[Hassat Hunter]

-Rant-
While I don't agree with Rather Dashing, even you cannot dismiss in the puzzle department Season 3 has been pretty lacking so far (see 301 and ESPECIALLY 303).
And if that is your main interest, I can surely see why one would be majorly dissapointed...

[The Highway]

i loved it. i kinda feel bad now for giving it an 8/10... i replayed it and found stuff that makes it better... like, 9/10...

[BoneFreak]

It's really hard now to say something that hasn't been said before.. But I really feel for some reason that I have a bigger relationship with TTG now. I mean, they're capable of releasing such blockbusters as this, I was very happy with my SBCG4AP DVD, they have contests to win $200 (!!!), and I can really think that they will pin down BTTF and JP (no sexual reference intended).

I love you Telltale. Expect more of my money soon :p

[Player_2]

I loved, loved, loved this episode. Max was AMAZING in the ending. He looked almost holy, radiating all that light...it felt ridiculously, intensely EPIC for a Sam & Max game. :D

Now I just gotta wonder how the hell Telltale plans to top that one. I mean, it feels like everything wrapped up pretty nicely, except for the whole Max becoming an abomination thing in the end. It would have made a perfect season finale. What else do they have planned?

The ending would have been a nice place for some kind of heartwarming friendship moment between the two of them. I would have liked it if they'd honed in on the geniune loyalty and heroism that was shown during those finally moments. Sam was so worried about Max, and Max turned into such a big damn hero to save him...but I guess this franchise isn't exactly known for it's drama, so whatever. Still, fans are ready to see that side of the characters; things don't always have to be whacky.

Wow, I sound like I'm taking things a bit too seriously, don't I?

[Planeforger]

To be honest, I didn't think much of the first two acts - I thought that they fell a bit flat compared to the previous episodes, and completely underused their premise (especially with a few frustrating puzzles - not so much difficult, just...unintuitive).

Having said that, the final act was awesome. It was great to finally have a challenging, multi-stage boss battle, and...well, what more can I say? :p

So...I wouldn't call it the best episode ever, since the first two acts just didn't click with me (they had their moments, but characters like Bluster Blaster, Harry and Superball completely overstayed their welcome, even with only a few lines each), but that's just me.

*edit* Admittedly, I just came back from watching Inception, so BtAotD is being unfairly compared to that. The episode was probably a lot better than I'm saying it is. :p

[queen_of_the_lobsters]

I'm just hoping Telltale knows what they're doing with 305. Beyond the Alley of the Doll worked a lot like a final episode--seeing all the characters again (minus the 302 cast), using all the toys again (minus Can O'Nuts), battling a Puppet Master on a large building, finding out that "The power was within you," the whole time. I'm REALLY hoping we get to delve into at least one person's dreams, or at least be able to control Max again.

[Super Bosco]

301, 302, and 303 are all clumped together at the very bottom of my list of Sam and Max episodes. They're all style, no substance, and they're just plain boring. The first one seemed the best because the shiny new game smell and the appeal of the new visuals, music style, etc would hit you harder and carry the weak game a bit farther than it can in later installments.

304, on the other hand, is practically on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's up there as a peer of episode 204: Chariots of the Dogs. They go to the same parties and one doesn't absolutely embarrass the other and it's totally great.

This. The only thing that disappointed me in this episode was of my own fault: After getting rid of that tentacle monster by the cloning machine, I instantly thought of using Bosco's letter as DNA for it. I got so excited when the machine accepted it that I figured that Bosco would be making a guest appearance. I was so bummed out when I figured out it was actually part of the equation to summon Momma Bosco.:(

[corruptbiggins]

Loved the episode, fantastic story and good variety of puzzles be it inventory ones or psychic powers. The final battle did feel like more of a season final battle so it'll be interesting to see where we go from here in the next episode.

Anyone else catch a possible "Darmok" reference?
"Shaka-etc..." (can't remember the rest...been a few hours), as in, "Shaka, when the walls fell"?

Yeah, loved that myself. Think the full quote was "Shaka - the mind blown".

[thatdude98]

301, 302, and 303 are all clumped together at the very bottom of my list of Sam and Max episodes. They're all style, no substance, and they're just plain boring. The first one seemed the best because the shiny new game smell and the appeal of the new visuals, music style, etc would hit you harder and carry the weak game a bit farther than it can in later installments.

304, on the other hand, is practically on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's up there as a peer of episode 204: Chariots of the Dogs. They go to the same parties and one doesn't absolutely embarrass the other and it's totally great.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[der_ketzer]

Liked it very much. Solid episode.

[Dangerzone]

It seams like I never talk much around here... and when i do, its only to bitch about something... But Yeah, that's my one gripe about the episode... the unintuitive puzzles that had solutions with nothing pointing toward it as the solution

I hate those sort of puzzles where you have to wander around aimlessly trying random crap till you find out what you are supposed to do (and telltale managed to steer away from those, till now)... At least in all the previous episodes/seasons the puzzles all had clear jumps in the logic, you are given 80% of the solution (just enough to get you thinking on the next-to-the-right track, without giving the outright solution) and have to figure how to solve it on your own... This is a fun mechanism, its satisfying and challenging at the same time... So why did they screw it up here?

In Episode 4 you are just given a bunch of random things that you have to try all over the place at multiple points in the game and hope that item/power/background object will do something NOW as opposed to BEFORE you talked to or read this persons mind

My biggest hang ups this episode all revolved around that failure... to be specific, they were...
#1 Knowing that I had to talk to stinky a second time after reading her mind, and mind read her a SECOND time after talking to her... I was stuck in that damn diner for over an hour, imagine how pissed I was when I found that her thoughts change depending on what you say to her!

#2 I could not see Paiperwaite's head in the door after he locked it unless I was in max mode, so that one was next to impossible for me... It wasn't until I took a leap of faith and flipped into max mode that I saw the little bit of his head in the window

#3 I could not make heads or tails of the stinky interrogation scene, Maybe I missed something? (but I probably didn't) it was over in 2 seconds and I feel gypped. like I missed a lot of good dialogue just cause I selected the right option on the first try (when I was not even aware that there already was a "right answer")

#4 The cathonic destroyer... ok this one was Fucked up 4 ways to sunday, (pardon my language, but I feel its appropriate here) where to even begin?! First, the fact that after an arcane conversation, suddenly an obscure gag which has been in 2 episodes suddenly becomes the item you need to select in order to find it... there is nothing whatsoever indicating that! I was the most frustrated I have ever been during a Sam and Max game, walking around the game looking for the 4 clues on the page in the world... Then you are thrown off track thinking you need something else to help figure out the dials when you just need to mess around with them till you figure out what they mean... (and even though they pull up Max mode right after you use the machine, nothing stated that you need to use the toys to see the changes to Sam after each time you use the machine)... In short I was Confused, mislead, cussing, and swearing the whole way through this one

#5 Talking to charlie at the end... for some reason the game did not clearly convey that you could do this... i selected him once and nothing happened, TURNS OUT you have to select him AFTER you try to change the music on the piano and THEN you can speak to him (which is already obscurely hidden behind Sams head)... So imagine how pissed off i was when i found you can change the music and talk to charlie... i felt like an idiot, even though i was just a victim of bad puzzle design


If telltale managed to do one thing its this... I was reminded of playing the classic adventure games of yore... This is one of those episodes that will be really fun to replay in a few years, after all the memories of being pissed off at it are gone

And I am not complaining because I was stumped... DO NOT get the wrong meaning from my post, I have been stumped at least one or two good times in every previous Telltale title... No, I am complaining about the lack of direction given to the players... most of the other episodes had subconscious clues aimed at giving the player a mental bridge between the problem and the solution... not here... Here they changed the definition of "hard puzzle" from the intelligence it takes to solve... to how "obscure" the solution is to the actual problem

And if it was just a one time deal i could get over it... but each of the 3 acts is plagued by this, and so what could have been an epic episode is all but ruined by bad puzzle design and bad puzzle goal communication... I cant even rate this episode cause the crap puzzles make me want to give it a 3/10, but the story and Epicness of it make me want to go 9/10

I can stand it if its only a one episode detour... but the damn finale had better go back to the previous format and leave the poorly conveyed puzzles back in the 90's where they belong

[Power46]

*Long post complaining about obscure puzzle solutions*

That's quite interesting; a lot of the people on these forums feel the exact opposite about puzzles. They feel that the puzzle solutions need to be less logic and more strange.

I don't feel swayed to either way, but I still feel this exchange is interesting; those that like simpler, more logical puzzles will come out to complain when the puzzles start to be stranger, and those that like the stranger puzzles will come out to complain when the puzzles are simpler, and more logical.

[Dangerzone]

Meh, I'm not the type that sees either type as superior... if it was all simple I would be turned off as well.

I just like a balance of puzzles... and this episode relied too heavily on the obscure, I'm sure quite a few feel that way.

As a matter of fact, the bigger the sway in difficulty from one puzzle to the next, the better i feel after the game is over... (make me smile and laugh with a simple puzzle, then make me growl with rage when I figure out a stumper)

[WesMote44]

Hi Guys,
I thought the episode was totally awsome. I love the plot twist, and how they had you guessing who might be the villian until the end. This is my all time favorite episode of Sam and Max. I am so looking forward to episode 5. I also love all the funny lines in the game.

[Power46]

Meh, I'm not the type that sees either type as superior... if it was all simple I would be turned off as well.

I just like a balance of puzzles... and this episode relied too heavily on the obscure, I'm sure quite a few feel that way.

As a matter of fact, the bigger the sway in difficulty from one puzzle to the next, the better i feel after the game is over... (make me smile and laugh with a simple puzzle, then make me growl with rage when I figure out a stumper)

Many people think that the puzzles in 301, 302, and 303 had too many simple puzzles, and think that 304 is much better than those in that respect.

So you like puzzles that have easy solutions right next to hard ones? Interesting way of thinking. Sadly for you, many consider that bad design.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, I rather enjoyed this episode.

[omiyage]

best so far, liked the twist on the plot and the true master behind the curtains

[WesMote44]

You guys complain way too much. I think TTG did an awsome job and I give all 4 episodes a 10/10. I also give all 5 episodes of Tale of Monkey Island a 10/10. You guys need to get into the story of the game. It isn't just about puzzles and such, it is also about the story and what is happening in the story. Besides I think the puzzles were great and they had me stumped for a while before i figured them out. Even if you figure out what to do in the game right away, it is fun to try all of Max's other toys to see things you would miss otherwise, like some of the funny things the characters would say that would have you laughing. I can't begin to count how many times I was laughing so hard from trying out all of Max's toys before solving any puzzles.

[thom-22]

*Long post complaining about obscure puzzle solutions*

I'm sorry but I don't think your arguments support your contention that the puzzles were obscure. After three episodes with the Toys of Power, it needs to be "stated" that they're important in solving puzzles? You need "direction" before messing around with dials to see how different settings change things? It is not at all "random" that you need to mind-read someone to get their thoughts on something you just talked to them about.

[toa1995]

This. The only thing that disappointed me in this episode was of my own fault: After getting rid of that tentacle monster by the cloning machine, I instantly thought of using Bosco's letter as DNA for it. I got so excited when the machine accepted it that I figured that Bosco would be making a guest appearance. I was so bummed out when I figured out it was actually part of the equation to summon Momma Bosco.:(

Me to that was the first thing that came to my mind

[Gibbeynator]

Is it just me, or did the Charlie battle seem like a rehash of the Brady Culture battle?

[lombre]

Is it just me, or did the Charlie battle seem like a rehash of the Brady Culture battle?

I don't see how it was at all similar. :/

[Power46]

Is it just me, or did the Charlie battle seem like a rehash of the Brady Culture battle?

It is just you.

[Yadda]

Actually, I see what Gibbey is getting at, in a way. But I think the rehash is coincidential at best - the puzzle itself is different enough, or at least seems different enough. :)

[Hassat Hunter]

I have to disagree with the poster about the puzzles. These were the best of season 3 so far, followed by 302.

301 was far too easy (future vision!) and 303 was just pathetic.

Also to #5 I was able to talk immediately to Charlie after selecting him as Sam, so I am not sure what went wrong with you there...

[Bmask]

It's hard for me to believe that the puzzles were so bad when I'm a very atypical adventure gamer- I'm always stumped by the puzzles, no matter the difficulty, I can never seem to think in the right mindframe for them. Yet I managed to breeze through this episode rather logically, everything just seemed to connect and make sense. The only thing I didn't get was the destruction of the toychest rather than charlie ho-tep, and even then I eventually had Yog Soggoth himself call out 'toychest' to remind me.

[ShaggE]

I don't think I've laughed out loud that many times in a single episode since Abe Lincoln Must Die. Not minor chuckles, either... full-on belly laughs. :D What is with you guys and constantly making the fourth episode the most awesome?

Also, Monster Max... AMAZING.

[Gogeta504]

i love this episode =) im gonna play it again

[LeBart]

What is with you guys and constantly making the fourth episode the most awesome?

I also noticed that in each season, the episode which corresponds to the season number (101, 202, 303) seems to be the weakest for a lot of people (including me).

So basicaly what I'm getting at is... what will happen with 404 !?

[lombre]

I also noticed that in each season, the episode which corresponds to the season number (101, 202, 303) seems to be the weakest for a lot of people (including me).

So basicaly what I'm getting at is... what will happen with 404 !?

Obviously episode 404 will not exist. It's a 404.

[Volya42]

Like many people posting here, I enjoyed the setup for 305. However, I'm a little worried that it looks like we're going to have yet another episode essentially without Max.

[Jake]

Is it just me, or did the Charlie battle seem like a rehash of the Brady Culture battle?

Attack me!!

[Rather Dashing]

It seams like I never talk much around here... and when i do, its only to bitch about something... But Yeah, that's my one gripe about the episode... the unintuitive puzzles that had solutions with nothing pointing toward it as the solution

I hate those sort of puzzles where you have to wander around aimlessly trying random crap till you find out what you are supposed to do (and telltale managed to steer away from those, till now)... At least in all the previous episodes/seasons the puzzles all had clear jumps in the logic, you are given 80% of the solution (just enough to get you thinking on the next-to-the-right track, without giving the outright solution) and have to figure how to solve it on your own... This is a fun mechanism, its satisfying and challenging at the same time... So why did they screw it up here?

In Episode 4 you are just given a bunch of random things that you have to try all over the place at multiple points in the game and hope that item/power/background object will do something NOW as opposed to BEFORE you talked to or read this persons mind

My biggest hang ups this episode all revolved around that failure... to be specific, they were...
Okay, all of these puzzles made sense. They were DIFFICULT, in that you had to actually think about it and experiment a bit rather than having a giant, glowing, neon arrow pointing to the solution or having to take one or two simple steps before the solution was stupidly clear. Even in the latter case, those steps are generally the same exact ones you'd been programmed to take for tons of far-too-easy puzzles for the rest of the season, which makes the game practically play itself. Unlike Episode 304, the rest of Season Three has been anything but engaging. These puzzles aren't even illogical either, and the logic behind them is actually really clear.

[spoiler]
#1 Knowing that I had to talk to stinky a second time after reading her mind, and mind read her a SECOND time after talking to her... I was stuck in that damn diner for over an hour, imagine how pissed I was when I found that her thoughts change depending on what you say to her!
This actually makes a TON of sense. Why would she be thinking about escaping through the secret tunnel after you'd clearly demonstrated that the secret tunnel DOES NOT WORK? That would be an absolutely idiotic thought to still have, just like the thought that this puzzle was at all obscure. Granted, I didn't think of it for awhile either, but when it clicked, it felt completely logical and I was very satisfied with the solution. You have to MAKE her think of the next plan by showing that the first one wouldn't work. It was a GREAT puzzle!

#2 I could not see Paiperwaite's head in the door after he locked it unless I was in max mode, so that one was next to impossible for me... It wasn't until I took a leap of faith and flipped into max mode that I saw the little bit of his head in the window
Huh, I saw it in the cinematic? What level were your graphics set to? Maybe you hit a glitch? It was very obvious to me before switching to Max Mode(and that's when I made the logical conclusion to use it), so I think this is in the purview of game glitches, and I'm sorry that ruined that puzzle for you.

#3 I could not make heads or tails of the stinky interrogation scene, Maybe I missed something? (but I probably didn't) it was over in 2 seconds and I feel gypped. like I missed a lot of good dialogue just cause I selected the right option on the first try (when I was not even aware that there already was a "right answer")
I think that the scene just makes your first two dialog choices the "right ones", because they don't seem to affect much of what goes on. It was just a throwback to the last episode, not really a puzzle. I actually wonder if it was a scrapped puzzle or something, it seems to have a lot of focus that is kind of wasted. Just as a check, I only chose Noir dialog options.

#4 The cathonic destroyer...
That's Cthonic. Cthonic, as in being related to Cthulu. Does NOBODY read anymore? Is that why people hate thinking in puzzle games?

ok this one was Fucked up 4 ways to sunday, (pardon my language, but I feel its appropriate here) where to even begin?! First, the fact that after an arcane conversation, suddenly an obscure gag which has been in 2 episodes suddenly becomes the item you need to select in order to find it... there is nothing whatsoever indicating that! I was the most frustrated I have ever been during a Sam and Max game, walking around the game looking for the 4 clues on the page in the world...
For one thing, that object was the VERY FIRST THING that I clicked after resurrecting Mama Bosco. Secondly, it's actually a dialog option, Mama Bosco sends you right to the thing!

Then you are thrown off track thinking you need something else to help figure out the dials when you just need to mess around with them till you figure out what they mean... (and even though they pull up Max mode right after you use the machine, nothing stated that you need to use the toys to see the changes to Sam after each time you use the machine)... In short I was Confused, mislead, cussing, and swearing the whole way through this one
The puzzle actually was nice and easy in some respects, because there was only a few dials with few numbers each, and the puzzle didn't require a certain COMBINATION(as in, you could solve each dial individually), and the game would mark FOR you the correct dial! If you got confused enough, though, if you were absolutely incompetent and incapable of thinking for more than five seconds, you could walk a couple feet to the left and ask Mama Bosco, would would say outright that each of the dials represents different spheres, making it obvious that you just need to set each one right. And if you know that ONE controls eotions, and ANOTHER controls thought, then it's STUPIDLY OBVIOUS that you can't tell what Sam saw unless you read his mind!

#5 Talking to charlie at the end... for some reason the game did not clearly convey that you could do this... i selected him once and nothing happened, TURNS OUT you have to select him AFTER you try to change the music on the piano and THEN you can speak to him (which is already obscurely hidden behind Sams head)... So imagine how pissed off i was when i found you can change the music and talk to charlie... i felt like an idiot, even though i was just a victim of bad puzzle design

I talked to Charlie before changing the music, so I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you were victim to the somewhat annoyingly bobbing camera in that scene? Or perhaps you were again glitched, like in one of the previous puzzles?

If telltale managed to do one thing its this... I was reminded of playing the classic adventure games of yore... This is one of those episodes that will be really fun to replay in a few years, after all the memories of being pissed off at it are gone
So...it did things right for once in the Season. Good for them! That is, no, I'm not going to argue that there is nowhere for the genre to grow and adapt(Portal, for instance, makes an EXCELLENT case for the evolution of Story-based puzzle games), but the BASIC IDEA and the BASIC FEELING of playing a puzzle game, if done right, should be more or less the same intellectually.

And I am not complaining because I was stumped... DO NOT get the wrong meaning from my post, I have been stumped at least one or two good times in every previous Telltale title... No, I am complaining about the lack of direction given to the players... most of the other episodes had subconscious clues aimed at giving the player a mental bridge between the problem and the solution... not here... Here they changed the definition of "hard puzzle" from the intelligence it takes to solve... to how "obscure" the solution is to the actual problem
The amount of direction you require is insane. You're asking for what amounts to a GPS-guided adventure game. Every single puzzle in 304 could be solved with either common sense or the clues and hooks that were built into the environment in places that you'd expect to find them.

And if it was just a one time deal i could get over it... but each of the 3 acts is plagued by this, and so what could have been an epic episode is all but ruined by bad puzzle design and bad puzzle goal communication... I cant even rate this episode cause the crap puzzles make me want to give it a 3/10, but the story and Epicness of it make me want to go 9/10

I can stand it if its only a one episode detour... but the damn finale had better go back to the previous format and leave the poorly conveyed puzzles back in the 90's where they belong
Or maybe you should leave the attitude that you should be playing Telltale games back in March 2010 (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15850), where it belongs.

You guys complain way too much. I think TTG did an awsome job and I give all 4 episodes a 10/10. I also give all 5 episodes of Tale of Monkey Island a 10/10. You guys need to get into the story of the game. It isn't just about puzzles and such, it is also about the story and what is happening in the story. Besides I think the puzzles were great and they had me stumped for a while before i figured them out. Even if you figure out what to do in the game right away, it is fun to try all of Max's other toys to see things you would miss otherwise, like some of the funny things the characters would say that would have you laughing. I can't begin to count how many times I was laughing so hard from trying out all of Max's toys before solving any puzzles.
It must be horrible being you. When everything has to be perfect, when nothing can have faults, then nothing is ever truly exceptional. I don't generally like putting numbers on things, because a number can't sum up what a thing is, and certainly if you looked at things at all critically, you'd see that there are differences between things and that those differences create different reactions within you. Now, I'm not saying you'd end up coming to the same conclusions as I did if you thought about it, just that you'd find that SOMETHING causes SOME deviation in how much you like an episode.

Nothing is "just about the story". Not even books. A book can have an excellent story, but written in a style that's so wooden and boring that actually going about and reading it is dull. A film can have terrible camera angles, poor acting, really poor use of effects, a bad art style, poor cinematography, bad editing, etc that make a great story come off terribly. A puzzle game comes out and changes the focus, now it's a game that has to be played. If getting TO the story is completely dull because it pretends that minor chores meant to unlock the next quip are, in fact, PUZZLES, the game itself is boring to play and badly designed, no matter WHAT else is going on, because that's the VERY BASIC DESIGN OF THE GAME, that's the very DEFINITION of your interaction with the world, and it's what separates THIS medium from others. You don't write a book like a screenplay or vice-versa, you don't make a game like a movie and then put in the game as an afterthought that should keep pace moving along like a film. The very IDEA that the GAME in a GAME does not matter is not only baffling, it's simply WRONG.

[SlasherMan]

Excellent episode. I loved it Best one yet :D

[Ash735]

To those of you complaining about the puzzles, I guess it's really down to the person, I admit that I've got stuck in Previous seasons and had to use hints, but this episode I did it all in one night because I just couldn't leave it. It did feel all classic puzzle design like but it all made sense, I was actually stumped for about 15 minutes on the last fight until I put tow and two together and just got a big smile on my face!

[Yadda]

you don't make a game like a movie and then put in the game as an afterthought that should keep pace moving along like a film. The very IDEA that the GAME in a GAME does not matter is not only baffling, it's simply WRONG.

...I see you've never played any of the Metal Gear Solid games. Two. Hour. Cutscenes.

All joking aside... You all are overreacting if you really think you should be taking it to the 'screaming and yelling' extreme. Just sit down and realize that people have their own opinions, the lot of ya. I've had countless urges to try to slap Rather Dashing back to reality, but every time, I've realized that he has the right to think that Season 3 isn't good, and slapped MYSELF back to reality.

Why don't you all just, oh, I dunno, slap yourselves? :p

[Rather Dashing]

...I see you've never played any of the Metal Gear Solid games. Two. Hour. Cutscenes.

All joking aside... You all are overreacting if you really think you should be taking it to the 'screaming and yelling' extreme. Just sit down and realize that people have their own opinions, the lot of ya. I've had countless urges to try to slap Rather Dashing back to reality, but every time, I've realized that he has the right to think that Season 3 isn't good, and slapped MYSELF back to reality.

Why don't you all just, oh, I dunno, slap yourselves? :p
I should have used bold or(even better) italics. The caps were meant to emphasize, not to imply anger or rage. My bad. :o

[Pantagruel's Friend]

This episode really suprised me - in good both and bad ways. I usually know clearly where I stand with games, but with BtAotD, I just can't seem to decide if I like it or not. This is how it looks for me:

The first part of the game (until getting out of Stinky's) was awesome. Very good cinematography, excellent dialog, laughed my head off when Skunkape was taken away by the clones (and also at Sam's alpha male comment), and I really liked the puzzles there - the combination of mind reading and dialogs were excellent.
Then the next part was basically a drivel. Uninteresting locations, long and pointless dialog trees, OK-ish humour, and the Lovecraft aspect way overdone. Even in the music. Some of the puzzles were nice here (the dimensional destabilizer puzzle is great, I enjoyed that one immensely), that's the best I can say.
Then the final scene at the Statue of Liberty was quite good - the boss battle puzzle was good, although it felt like ages to build (I mean the "change song, click half a dozen times, read mind" sequence four times)
... and I didn't like the ending. I'm well aware that I may be alone with this - still.


I guess I need a replay soon - probably that puts everything in place.

@Rather Dashing: there's one thing I don't understand. If you're so enthusiastic about the puzzles in 304, then why do you hate 302? From my point of view, the quality of puzzle design and the difficulty of the puzzles were quite similar in these two episodes.

[Rather Dashing]

@Rather Dashing: there's one thing I don't understand. If you're so enthusiastic about the puzzles in 304, then why do you hate 302? From my point of view, the quality of puzzle design and the difficulty of the puzzles were quite similar in these two episodes.
Really? I mean, I'd agree that it was leaps and bounds ahead of 301 and 303, and perhaps lumping it together is unfair, but overall it felt far weaker than anything in Seasons One and Two. There were a couple really good puzzles in there(Getting Jurgen and the Vampire Elf to meet and cutting the bust in half, but otherwise refer to the above.

One big thing about 304 is that there are a lot more red herrings and a ton more concurrently-running puzzles than in 302. When you have a lot of goals to accomplish, things that are useful can still be red herrings, because you may have things relevant to all of the major puzzles and you'll have to think about which is important and then how to use it.

I suppose things were running concurrently in 302, but it felt like there was only one puzzle at a time in each timeline, and they were so disparate that you could tell when you had to jump around a bit.

I also love the way the psychic powers were applied here, and I think the finale was a far better puzzle(which is important, the last impression puzzle should be one of the best ones).

Maybe our minds work somewhat differently, and you had more trouble with 302 than I did because of it. Maybe the fact that I played 302 on and off over the course of a month didn't help it in terms of feeling like a cohesive experience. I don't know. But the impression I got from it was that it was in the same league as the two episodes surrounding it, if not completely equal.

[thesporkman]

I also felt that episodes 2 and 4 were pretty on par in terms of puzzle difficulty. But I think I enjoyed the puzzles in episode 2 a little bit more; they had that clever twisted "adventure game-y" sort of logic, whereas the puzzles in episode 4 were almost too logical and straightforward.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

There were a couple really good puzzles in there(Getting Jurgen and the Vampire Elf to meet and cutting the bust in half, but otherwise refer to the above.

Interesting - I loved probably all the psychic power puzzles in 302, both with the can of worms and Charlie.

One big thing about 304 is that there are a lot more red herrings and a ton more concurrently-running puzzles than in 302. When you have a lot of goals to accomplish, things that are useful can still be red herrings, because you may have things relevant to all of the major puzzles and you'll have to think about which is important and then how to use it.

I suppose things were running concurrently in 302, but it felt like there was only one puzzle at a time in each timeline, and they were so disparate that you could tell when you had to jump around a bit.


Again, interesting - 302 felt very parallel to me. You could be doing usually two reels in parallel, multiple puzzles / reel, and there were only few "synch" points.

I also love the way the psychic powers were applied here, and I think the finale was a far better puzzle(which is important, the last impression puzzle should be one of the best ones).

Fair enough - the final showdown in 302 was not in the same league as in 304.

Maybe our minds work somewhat differently, and you had more trouble with 302 than I did because of it.

It's the other way around, actually - I didn't have any problem in either episode. I had to experiment here and there in both, but that's part of the fun. I never felt stuck for a moment.

Also, the strongest point of 302 for me was the atmosphere - I can imagine it got demolished by the long timespan (I usually finish these games in two 1-2 hour sessions, mostly on subsequent days).
But also, it's possible that we differ this much :)

[onlyamonkey]

"You actually agree with the only valid opinion on the season(Mine, of course), because..."
There's always discussions when you move in between absolutes, in the thresholds. But there's a difference between argumentation when your intention is good (as in constructive and positive) and argumentation from a purely emotional standpoint. I think you base what you think on your own feelings and these feelings have so different roots for you that they have nothing to do with objectively experiencing the game and all about your internal issues.

Just telling you, you're kind of out of line when the difference is extremely clear when you compare s1 and s3 in a vacuum. If TTG released an episode like the Mole and the Meatball now there would be massive disappointment in the forums.

I don't even know ...
I don't know where ... best of the season.
I'm telling you the most probably reasons why your view is completely biased. It would have been different if you had eaten say a proper breakfast that day after having some sweet morning sex.

Do people enjoy pretending not to like things? I wasn't aware that this was a common hobby.
You tell me, I didn't label 301, 302 and 303 as "all style, no substance and plain boring" and still replayed "them several times".

Wish I could rephrase myself less flamey, but I'm certain you're mature enough to take a step back as suggested, maybe realize some stuff about yourself or maybe realize you think I'm wrong and then carry on.

[onlyamonkey]

Calm down? It's just his opinion. Jeez. And it's not even like I totally agree with him.

If opinions are more consistent with mood swings than thoughts it should more be labeled as drivel.

[Giant Tope]

I'll be perfectly honest here, you're the one sounding like you're on pms. Taking items out of context and dismissing them based solely because they're not of the same opinion as you seems a bit unfair.

[Secret Fawful]

It must be horrible being you. When everything has to be perfect, when nothing can have faults, then nothing is ever truly exceptional. I don't generally like putting numbers on things, because a number can't sum up what a thing is, and certainly if you looked at things at all critically, you'd see that there are differences between things and that those differences create different reactions within you. Now, I'm not saying you'd end up coming to the same conclusions as I did if you thought about it, just that you'd find that SOMETHING causes SOME deviation in how much you like an episode.

Nothing is "just about the story". Not even books. A book can have an excellent story, but written in a style that's so wooden and boring that actually going about and reading it is dull. A film can have terrible camera angles, poor acting, really poor use of effects, a bad art style, poor cinematography, bad editing, etc that make a great story come off terribly. A puzzle game comes out and changes the focus, now it's a game that has to be played. If getting TO the story is completely dull because it pretends that minor chores meant to unlock the next quip are, in fact, PUZZLES, the game itself is boring to play and badly designed, no matter WHAT else is going on, because that's the VERY BASIC DESIGN OF THE GAME, that's the very DEFINITION of your interaction with the world, and it's what separates THIS medium from others. You don't write a book like a screenplay or vice-versa, you don't make a game like a movie and then put in the game as an afterthought that should keep pace moving along like a film. The very IDEA that the GAME in a GAME does not matter is not only baffling, it's simply WRONG.

Out of all the posts in this topic, this one bothers me because:

All you're doing is looking at his opinion and telling him how it must relate to his life and what it must mean to him when all you're really saying is how it relates to/what it means to you. That doesn't make his opinion bad, and it definitely doesn't make it "horrible to be him". All you're really doing is spouting an ideal where everyone needs to think about things and people critically like you, which is all fine and good, but you're ignoring the merits of/his individuality in a laid-back, casual personality who would rather enjoy something for what it is (escapist entertainment) and who just doesn't care enough to spend his time nitpicking what should be a positive time-wasting experience. Just because people don't go about it like you doesn't make them idiots, although I can see where you say "it must be horrible to be you" in that for you it would be horrible to be him, but for him that is his ideal and that's how he likes it and you don't have the right or the place to tear him down for it. Because then you're just pushing your opinion/weight around onto others and calling it an absolute, which IT. IS. NOT.

Oh, and learn to read what people write. He didn't say it was "just about the story" as you read, he said it was "also about the story in addition to the puzzles and gameplay".

Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.

[tabstis]

oh dear guys let's calm down the argument. this is a thread for opinions on 304 not complaining about others' views. if u think they're wrong, say it nicely...

I think part of what made 304 so epic was the mystery throughout and the constant presence of the sam clones above.

[Rather Dashing]

There's always discussions when you move in between absolutes, in the thresholds. But there's a difference between argumentation when your intention is good (as in constructive and positive) and argumentation from a purely emotional standpoint.
I don't see how. There is, of course, difference between good arguments and bad ones, but if you were heavily disappointed with something, I don't know why you're not allowed to actually say that. Especially since some people have been doing this for Ten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_from_Monkey_Island) years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Menace) without any incident for things that are more widely unpopular. It seems to me that the only difference here is that there are some things that are acceptable to dislike, and some things that are not, and the latter category isn't allowed to be treated the same as something that you may dislike just as much but also has the collective vitriol of the community.

It seems to me that if I really dislike something popular, suddenly I am expected to temper my opinions down or find a way to express them "positively", which I simply don't think is an honest representation. I try not to directly insult specific forum members, and the way I see it that's all a person needs to do. If someone absolutely LOVES something that I despise, that doesn't mean I have to interrogate them about personal issues when the original point was just that they thought Episode II: Attack of the Clones was the best film. That's not discussion, that's anathema to discussion. A better course of action would be to take what they said about the films, and counter them with my own interpretation of things, rather than simply saying that they must not actually think what they say they think. And at the end of the day we may still strongly disagree. That's okay.

I think you base what you think on your own feelings and these feelings have so different roots for you that they have nothing to do with objectively experiencing the game and all about your internal issues.
One thing that you must know is that you don't objectively experience art. Nobody does. Now, you can try to be objective, and I think I've been fairly close to it. You can be objective and also at the end think, "Wow, that was REALLY badly done". If it's a follow-up to something that you thought was incredibly impressive, then your reaction can manifest in extreme disappointment. If, for example, you think that plot in a film has been replaced with special effects, and everyone else says it has to be objectively better because the effects are better, then you're left wondering why nobody else gets the point, that a film isn't about the effects. In the same way, a game isn't "about" the story, or the cinematography, or the graphics, etc. These things are part of the presentation, and they're IMPORTANT, but if what they're supporting isn't solid, the whole thing falls apart.

Just telling you, you're kind of out of line when the difference is extremely clear when you compare s1 and s3 in a vacuum. If TTG released an episode like the Mole and the Meatball now there would be massive disappointment in the forums.
And that's fine by the forum-goers, I'm sure. I think you put far too much faith in your allegedly Vulcan-esque quality assessment. I think you find yourself believing that you can give an exact and scientific value to quality. You can't. Nobody can. Nobody experiences things in a vacuum, and it's impossible for somebody to go into an emotional and mental vacuum. I can say that if I am bored out of interest several times throughout a fairly short game, to the point that it takes me a month to muster up the energy and the willpower to actually slog through it, then it is not an engaging form of entertainment.

I'm telling you the most probably reasons why your view is completely biased. It would have been different if you had eaten say a proper breakfast that day after having some sweet morning sex.
Biased how? I went into The Penal Zone expecting nothing less than to be enthralled, the same state I was in when I went into Ice Station Santa. The latter didn't bore me to tears, why should I expect less of the former?

You tell me, I didn't label 301, 302 and 303 as "all style, no substance and plain boring" and still replayed "them several times".
I don't think I ever said I "replayed them several times", because I didn't. I think you're remembering or misconstruing something I said earlier. It could be related to teh fact that my single playthrough of episodes 2 and 3 more or less spanned the entire month between games because I stopped after getting disinterested in them. I certainly didn't go back for seconds when it comes to any of the first three episodes of Season Three.

Wish I could rephrase myself less flamey, but I'm certain you're mature enough to take a step back as suggested, maybe realize some stuff about yourself or maybe realize you think I'm wrong and then carry on.
I think you're wrong, and I'm willing to have a civil discussion as to why I think you're wrong. I think the arguments that you are presenting are anti-discussion and simply willfully ignorant, though, they're ideas that allow you to close your eyes and pretend that what you just read is a fabrication of some sort. It seems to me that you prefer denying that alternate viewpoints can logically exist rather than engaging in an actual conversation, which is just about the worst attitude a person can bring into a discussion forum.

Out of all the posts in this topic, this one bothers me because:

All you're doing is looking at his opinion and telling him how it must relate to his life and what it must mean to him when all you're really saying is how it relates to/what it means to you. That doesn't make his opinion bad, and it definitely doesn't make it "horrible to be him". All you're really doing is spouting an ideal where everyone needs to think about things and people critically like you, which is all fine and good, but you're ignoring the merits of/his individuality in a laid-back, casual personality who would rather enjoy something for what it is (escapist entertainment) and who just doesn't care enough to spend his time nitpicking what should be a positive time-wasting experience. Just because people don't go about it like you doesn't make them idiots, although I can see where you say "it must be horrible to be you" in that for you it would be horrible to be him, but for him that is his ideal and that's how he likes it and you don't have the right or the place to tear him down for it. Because then you're just pushing your opinion/weight around onto others and calling it an absolute, which IT. IS. NOT.
I don't know about you, but I think that this kind of thinking is inherently worse than thinking about things in any sort of critical way. When you understand what the structure of a thing is and why it works(and hence, when it is simply not working), then you gain a far deeper appreciation of the medium as a whole. People act as though connoisseurs and critics suck the fun out of things, but that's simply not the case, unless you happen to be living in a world in which nothing is special, nothing has intrinsic value, and every piece of entertainment is exactly the same as any other. It just seems so shallow.

Maybe I'm too critical of this kind of thought process, but it seems to me that a person becomes critical by learning to understand what they're consuming, and learning is inherently good.

Oh, and learn to read what people write. He didn't say it was "just about the story" as you read, he said it was "also about the story in addition to the puzzles and gameplay".
I took this too far. You're actually absolutely right in this regard. Still, I find the idea of rebuffing an argument about puzzles, the very heart of an adventure game, as being equal to story or capable of being supplanted by a story as patently absurd. It seems like missing the point, like the person really shouldn't be playing adventure games in the first place, because what's the inherent interest there? Perhaps I'm just being nitpicky in this case, though, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.

Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.
I'd like it if you could stop being so defensive and sarcastic about what you assume other people think. It comes off as very pompous, whether or not you have something good to say. I'm not in the mood for a fight, I rarely am, and honestly I feel like I've had a lot of hostility thrust at me, when I don't have any hostility toward anybody else. Sure, I don't like some video games, and you like those video games. Is that a reason to attack my character, and hijack a thread to make it about me and my perceived issues rather than keeping it as a discussion about video games?

Sorry, this last part of the post is probably combining aspects of both posts into a singular super-post, and I apologize for the organizational clusterfuck.

[thom-22]

Because then you're just pushing your opinion/weight around onto others and calling it an absolute, which IT. IS. NOT.

Are you sure you clicked the right "quote" button? Because I'm pretty sure that's what onlyamonkey's first post did, not RatherDashing's.

Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because you either has some emotional nostalgic problems or a compulsion to go against the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.

That seems like a denial of the idea that quality is a matter of opinion and that anyone who criticizes the game is irrational or has some hidden agenda.

[Rather Dashing]

Oh hey look it's Thom stating my thoughts in a far more usefully compact way. Thom gets +1 Thumbs Up.

[uniqortkga]

I'm the only one who found this episode to be very easy and episode 303 to be medium, aren't I?

[thom-22]

Oh hey look it's Thom stating my thoughts in a far more usefully compact way. Thom gets +1 Thumbs Up.

Those are actually my own thoughts. But, sorry, I didn't see your post before responding to the Secret Fawful post.

[Secret Fawful]

I don't know about you, but I think that this kind of thinking is inherently worse than thinking about things in any sort of critical way. When you understand what the structure of a thing is and why it works(and hence, when it is simply not working), then you gain a far deeper appreciation of the medium as a whole. People act as though connoisseurs and critics suck the fun out of things, but that's simply not the case, unless you happen to be living in a world in which nothing is special, nothing has intrinsic value, and every piece of entertainment is exactly the same as any other. It just seems so shallow.

Maybe I'm too critical of this kind of thought process, but it seems to me that a person becomes critical by learning to understand what they're consuming, and learning is inherently good.
I'm not saying your point of view is wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the absolute standard. Not everyone can or wants to view things in that way, and I can't say it's really bad. Besides while they may not be critical about one thing that they want to put more time into the enjoyment of, they might use a critical attitude elsewhere. And while it doesn't necessarily suck the fun out of things, I've never really seen someone who didn't have a decrease in their enjoyment of something when they started picking it apart.


I'd like it if you could stop being so defensive and sarcastic about what you assume other people think. It comes off as very pompous, whether or not you have something good to say. I'm not in the mood for a fight, I rarely am, and honestly I feel like I've had a lot of hostility thrust at me, when I don't have any hostility toward anybody else. Sure, I don't like some video games, and you like those video games. Is that a reason to attack my character, and hijack a thread to make it about me and my perceived issues rather than keeping it as a discussion about video games?

Sorry, this last part of the post is probably combining aspects of both posts into a singular super-post, and I apologize for the organizational clusterfuck.

I wasn't saying it to get a fight, I'm self-depreciating. I completely believe that this is what people think of me and my posts here, so it can make my attitude on trying to come across as intelligent more than a little...bitchy. Its part of being a person who runs on "how I feel" more than "what I think". I've come to be surprised when people reply to my long-windedness, because I also see it all as long-winded and HATE THAT. I'm stuck in a mindset where I hate how I talk yet feel compelled to keep talking that way. I don't like pompousness or hoity-toityness, and would rather prefer to be a simple silly person but it doesn't seem to work out that way for me all the time. In retrospect I shouldn't have said what I said, but I literally could not help it.

I'm not telling you to change (your opinion is fresh and exciting), but I do get a rod shoved up my ass when you take it too far and start tearing someone a new one, although I don't expect to change you on that either, I just say it because..well...I can't help myself. It's hypocritical but I don't care. I believe that people should say the right thing even if they're a hypocrite in saying it.

As far as onlyamonkey, I can't help with him, I didn't read what he said once I saw Giant Tope had to tell him to calm down, so I wrote him off almost immediately from that.

I mean as far as this particular episode, I could sit here and pick it apart (and I have a lot I'd love to pick apart on it) but why would I do that? I'd end up not wanting to play it again. Even when other people pick a game apart I find myself not wanting to play the game after reading all of that, because to me everyone makes valid points. I could barely enjoy They Stole Max's Brain at all after all the complaints I read about the noir being too short and the third part being so bland. I still haven't beaten it because of that; it ruined my enjoyment before I played the game. Now imagine how much I would hate the game if I picked it apart.

....And I didn't like the thing with Max going glowy and fighting Charlie in mid-air. It was a sudden plot device that was thrown in with no warning so Charlie wouldn't be unstoppable and it was gone just as quickly as it came, only serving a purpose for one puzzle and no story development. I mean serious, no super-powered Max puzzles? Are we just gonna ignore the potential in this for one game of Chameleon? REALLY? Okay, then. There. Happy? Now I can't ever play the game again. lol On top of which it was a little too dramatic by that point. The boss fight with the piano puzzle was great, but by floaty glowy time it was layering drama on top of drama and it started to feel like a completely different game.

[Giant Tope]

i thought 304 was great because the puz was good and the story was nice

[Breakman]

Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because you either has some emotional nostalgic problems or a compulsion to go against the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.

I think nostalgia doesn't work on people who got into the franchise clean and innocent in 2007. (Why did I just creeped myself out right now? ^^; ) Especially those said people who played the Telltale version first, then read the comics, played HtR, and watched the cartoon and found two of those three better than the Telltale version.

If I wanted to go "against the masses", I wouldn't say anything positive about Season 3. Besides, what's so wrong with stating an opinion? Sometimes people have to stand alone if they truly believe it.


I mean as far as this particular episode, I could sit here and pick it apart (and I have a lot I'd love to pick apart on it) but why would I do that? I'd end up not wanting to play it again. Even when other people pick a game apart I find myself not wanting to play the game after reading all of that, because to me everyone makes valid points. I could barely enjoy They Stole Max's Brain at all after all the complaints I read about the noir being too short and the third part being so bland. I still haven't beaten it because of that; it ruined my enjoyment before I played the game. Now imagine how much I would hate the game if I picked it apart.

If picking apart a game you love causes you to hate it, maybe it isn't a good game after all. I hear a lot of people complain about my favorite games (too "obsolete", too easy/hard, just plain boring, etc) and I've also played my loved games so many times that I later found boring at parts, clunky controls compared to other games I've played, etc. But I still love these games because I have reasons to love something despite the flaws.

Although it sounds weird coming from me, I think you should stop listening to other people (whether they are leaving negative comments or not) and just play the game. Don't let other people's opinions prevent you from finishing a game (or anything for that matter).



It was a sudden plot device that was thrown in with no warning so Charlie wouldn't be unstoppable and it was gone just as quickly as it came, only serving a purpose for one puzzle and no story development.

I liked it because it reminded me how random the comics were. Anything that reminds me of the comics and/or Hit the Road is a major plus. This episode did it at least twice.


Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.

You stole my material! Then this is the part where someone says, "Your posts? Who are you and I've never seen you on these forums before." XP

[Secret Fawful]

Well I agree with you. I shouldn't let other people's opinions of the game affect my enjoyment of it but somehow it does. I can't explain it. And there is one thing that will get me to replay 304 every time. That is when Sam goes to the Dark Dimensions and comes back all crazy and creepy and weird. THAT is typical sam and max humor to me in that there is no rhyme or reason to it and I LOVE IT.

[Diduz]

I think 304 is the weakest of the bunch so far.
The story pace is uneven: too many things to tell, in order to reveal the overall story arc.
Puzzles felt old and formulaic, I found the game VERY easy and consequently rather boring.
The ending was great though, and I laughed at Sam's reactions after his interdimensional travels. :D

I hope 305 is better than this.
I still think 302 is the best one so far, followed by 301 and 303. I've yet to experience a design structure as mindblowing as 302's.

[Randulf]

I enjoyed the puzzles immensely: they're more involved and less straight-forward than in previous episodes. They are well-designed except for the DNA thing which is almost like a rehash of a 204 puzzle.

Exciting story, enriched by a cast with expressive facial expressions. I just don't particularly care for the ending -- I was expecting a 50-feet lagomorph rather than a Stitch-like tentacle monster...

[SmileMan64]

I'm afraid that Dangerzone needs more practice in this kind of games. For many others, the solutions were quite logical.

Dangerzone: "and even though they pull up Max mode right after you use the machine, nothing stated that you need to use the toys to see the changes to Sam after each time you use the machine"

Well, DUH!!! The very same fact that they thrust you into Max mode after Sam returns should be a clue that you have to do something as Max. Say, what has been Max doing the whole season? Using psychic powers on people and objects? Say... they automatically place you in Max mode, with Sam in front of you. Only an insignificant shard of logic is necessary to assume you are to use psychic powers on Sam. And since the different dials produce different reactions, some of them visible... meh, whatever.

[Giant Tope]

I think nostalgia doesn't work on people who got into the franchise clean and innocent in 2007. (Why did I just creeped myself out right now? ^^; ) Especially those said people who played the Telltale version first, then read the comics, played HtR, and watched the cartoon and found two of those three better than the Telltale version.


Yeah, that nostalgic argument sorta bugged me as well.

I see the whole issue about puzzles as well. I've been enjoying the season, but I'm sorta dumb so I've
thought the puzzles have been consistently challenging for me, though not to the caliber of season 2. Season 2's puzzles were pretty much amazing. I think it would make an amazing game if it was the setting and environment of season 3 with the puzzle caliber of season 2.

Note I started playing Sam and Max last December.


...that said, i really enjoyed the the somewhat less hand led puz in the most recent episode.

[Trogdorman]

I LOVED this episode!!!! there were so many twists and turns that made my heart stop! I seriously thought at one point that Mama Bosco would end up being "the master" , and I SERIOUSLY didn't think that Paperwaite would end up being a host for Yog-Soggoth/Dr. Norrington (No matter how obsessed he was) , and Charlie Ho-Tep?!?!?! and I nearly crapped my pants when Max became a giant octopus demon . And one part involving the dimensional destabilizer and Sam going insane and some of the future visions made me pee my pants laughing. I already can't wait for the next episode!!!!

[thom-22]

I think it would make an amazing game if it was the setting and environment of season 3 with the puzzle caliber of season 2.

I wish there was a smiley for :drool: :D

[GinnyN]

Yeah, that nostalgic argument sorta bugged me as well.

The nostalgia argument in a way is a somesort of block device for avoid understand why something you think other wise is beloved by someone else. Which is typical.

The best way to understand someone else opinions is understanding first your opinion isn't less valid than the last one and then try to see the quality in the points of the other person. Trying to understand it, instead of just not been agree. Which is difficult to do by myself, but I try to do it most of the time. (There's a couple of points of course I try to avoid because I'm too stumped in my opinion which I think is extremely correct, but I know this mind set doesn't help in a discussion, and then I simple avoid the theme. It's stupid, but, well...).

Ironically, I was thinking in Rather Dashing when I played this game. Of course difficulty depends of the person, but, while I was playing this game, I thought "Maybe he will like this episode!" because this is, maybe, the only episode of the third season I resolved all the puzzles by myself instead of just bump with the solution the half of the time. I don't know if my appreciation is correct, of course, but that's what I'm thinking.

Also, thanks to this thread I understood why I don't like Up! yay.

[Graywing]

At some of the long posts being long: tl;dr.

Just get to the point instead of summing up every minor detail.. e.g. I don't need the entire history of the Latin alphabet to find the meaning of the word Agonizing in the dictionary.

If you like it: why?
If you don't like it: why?
If you are indifferent: why?

All of these options rhyme with easy as pie. <end cheerful rant>

[mrlovanhey]

I really enjoyed this episode. It was varied and interesting. The puzzles were good too.

[Rather Dashing]

At some of the long posts being long: tl;dr.

Just get to the point instead of summing up every minor detail.. e.g. I don't need the entire history of the Latin alphabet to find the meaning of the word Agonizing in the dictionary.

If you like it: why?
If you don't like it: why?
If you are indifferent: why?

All of these options rhyme with easy as pie. <end cheerful rant>
At you: Shut the hell up.

I hate you: Because you're trying to change the way I post
I don't like it: Because there's only so much you can summarize before everything's the same, and I like reading longer posts that can have some complexity and differentiation.

Both of these explain why you suck and should die. <end angry bite-sized rant>

[Giant Tope]

sounds like you need a hug. do you want a hug?

[Rather Dashing]

Yes. :(

[Giant Tope]

ok if you come visit, you can get a hug.

[Alcoremortis]

I like reading long posts, provided that they have paragraph breaks. I don't like writing them, though. So I don't. :D

I really liked this episode-- it was the first one of the season that took me a full evening to complete. And at the end, I was squeeing like a fangirl (very quietly because my family was asleep). Yup. :D:D

[Secret Fawful]

He doesn't need a hug he needs an award. That post was awesome.

[Comrade Pants]

<end angry bite-sized rant>

Bite sized rant... Hm... Is it too late to change my username?

[BoneFreak]

ginormous post


Clearly, you must be REALLY pushing out with things just to criticize if you take up the realty space of about 4-6 posts.

Sometimes, if you have a very long drawn-out thought, don't say anything at all.

[Giant Tope]

What

[BoneFreak]

What is this I don't even

fixed

[Giant Tope]

no i mean what to you

why would you even say that

[DoctorCello]

Clearly, you must be REALLY pushing out with things just to criticize if you take up the realty space of about 4-6 posts.

Sometimes, if you have a very long drawn-out thought, don't say anything at all.

...seriously? I'd understand if all Rather Dashing did was ramble on and on incoherently, but he doesn't. Even when he's expressing an opinion I strongly disagree with, I find most everything he says enlightening and interesting. He puts a lot of thought into his posts, and there's no reason for him to be punished for it.

It's not like the more he types, the more space is taken away for others to post. Sheesh.

[Secret Fawful]

Clearly, you must be REALLY pushing out with things just to criticize if you take up the realty space of about 4-6 posts.

Sometimes, if you have a very long drawn-out thought, don't say anything at all.

So...if we have a thought, we should keep it to ourselves? Okay, I just had a thought about you, but I'll keep it to myself.

(And I agree with Cello.)

[onlyamonkey]

I don't see how. There is, of course, difference between good arguments and bad ones, but if you were heavily disappointed with something, I don't know why you're not allowed to actually say that.
An argument- good or bad, doesn't matter. It's just opinion anyways. What matters is the basis of an opinion. Imagine you're standing inside a cave and you try to describe the mountain the cave is in. It would be accurate, but still unfair to the mountain.

There's a lot of love put into s3, a lot of creativity. The graphics are clearly better, the atmosphere has clearly improved, it's way more userfriendly and there's no recycling of the same old places. That's some serious resources put down right there. These are major pillars that you can't just overlook.

I'm saying that you pick what you dislike and you blow it up and let it overshadow the whole. And that's where the whole issue is for me. You downplay very important parts of the game and let room for stuff that's probably more connected to a period of your life, than how you really experienced it back then. Nostalgia.

I'm aware you got critiqued by someone else as well, which is unfortunate, because the natural reaction then is to get more defensive, which decreases the chance in the longrun that you'll enjoy the games more.

I'm not against you. I just know that you can enjoy the game a lot more if you watch from some other POVs as well.

It seems to me that the only difference here is that there are some things that are acceptable to dislike, and some things that are not, and the latter category isn't allowed to be treated the same as something that you may dislike just as much but also has the collective vitriol of the community.
If the collective enjoys a thing more than you do, why would you not want to learn how to enjoy it as much, or even more?

It seems to me that if I really dislike something popular, suddenly I am expected to temper my opinions down or find a way to express them "positively", which I simply don't think is an honest representation.
So, basicly you're sacrificing your fun for the collective good :).

I try not to directly insult specific forum members, and the way I see it that's all a person needs to do. If someone absolutely LOVES something that I despise, that doesn't mean I have to interrogate them about personal issues when the original point was just that they thought Episode II: Attack of the Clones was the best film.
No, I guess I'm out of line in a way. I don't normally do this either, but when I read your posts I felt I had to.

That's not discussion, that's anathema to discussion. A better course of action would be to take what they said about the films, and counter them with my own interpretation of things, rather than simply saying that they must not actually think what they say they think. And at the end of the day we may still strongly disagree. That's okay.
That's totally pointless for me. Why argue about how people see things? It's just how they see things.

What's important is where they stand when they see things. Maybe there's a better road to a spot where they can get a better view?

One thing that you must know is that you don't objectively experience art. Nobody does.
That depends on the definitions of art and objective. Like music isn't mathematical. Like feelings can't be roughly calculated.

Now, you can try to be objective, and I think I've been fairly close to it. You can be objective and also at the end think, "Wow, that was REALLY badly done".
If you would create points for every single game aspect and then put different weight into each and every one of these points, you would only reach the conclusion that s1 heavily beats s3 in the most extreme of cases. Regression analyzis teaches us to remove the most extremes. I'm just kidding, but what I am saying is that you may have a few points, but the weight you put on these points basicly ignores all the other points. The painting is important, but so are the motives, the framing and the environment the painting is in.

In the same way, a game isn't "about" the story, or the cinematography, or the graphics, etc. These things are part of the presentation, and they're IMPORTANT, but if what they're supporting isn't solid, the whole thing falls apart.
It doesn't fall apart if you don't let it fall apart.

I think you put far too much faith in your allegedly Vulcan-esque quality assessment. I think you find yourself believing that you can give an exact and scientific value to quality. You can't. Nobody can.
It's true, I cant. In the thresholds, nobody can. In the extremes, it's easier to identify and compare black and white. And if your assessment leaves you feeling negative, then maybe you can learn how to appreciate other things in a game so you can enjoy it more. Because it's all about enjoying the experience, and you have the power to convince yourself to enjoy it more.

Nobody experiences things in a vacuum, and it's impossible for somebody to go into an emotional and mental vacuum.
I meant that if you put yourself in the shoes of an episode like The Mole, The Mob and the Meatball being released now, you can very easily see that many would be disappointed.

And I have rarely reached a level where I'm clearly assessing feelings and taking all variables into account, but I have been there a few times. Totally "emotion free" although still being able to calculate emotion. I have a job that puts me in these spots a lot where as most don't so I can actually chalk that up as experience. Call it extreme focus or whatever.

I can say that if I am bored out of interest several times throughout a fairly short game, to the point that it takes me a month to muster up the energy and the willpower to actually slog through it, then it is not an engaging form of entertainment.
That energy and willpower comes from within, it doesn't come from the game. It has to do with your attitude and is something that can be changed. If you would really, really focus and tell yourself to enjoy the experience, you would.

I think you're wrong, and I'm willing to have a civil discussion as to why I think you're wrong. I think the arguments that you are presenting are anti-discussion and simply willfully ignorant, though, they're ideas that allow you to close your eyes and pretend that what you just read is a fabrication of some sort.
I can see how someone would view me as ignorant, sure.

It seems to me that you prefer denying that alternate viewpoints can logically exist
POVs are part of the same grid, they do not exist in separate dimensions, totally not in relation to eachother.

rather than engaging in an actual conversation, which is just about the worst attitude a person can bring into a discussion forum.
Yeah, the: "I think that it's yellow", "No, I'd rather think that it's slightly orange" game is boring. It's much more fun learning about how people are and why they view stuff as they do.

People act as though connoisseurs and critics suck the fun out of things, but that's simply not the case, unless you happen to be living in a world in which nothing is special, nothing has intrinsic value, and every piece of entertainment is exactly the same as any other. It just seems so shallow.
One of my friends is a connaisseur. He tastes wine with his whole body. It's a joy just to watch him taste. He should be a connaisseur, because he enjoys what he does. And the only thing important with something for someone who takes advice from a connaisseur is what in it is good to enjoy, not what's bad about it. A connaisseur is a communicator who teaches us what to enjoy, so we can enjoy the finer things, not someone who time and time again puts down experiences so we can learn how to despise. Granted, it's two absolutes of a spectrum, but it's easy to comparatively say that someone who enjoys has a better time than someone who despises.

You want the highs of the good but you don't want the lows of the bad. So you look for the good and try to avoid seeing the bad. Then your whole reality
can be adjusted upwards compared to others, since everything still is just POV and relative. Comparative, you'll just enjoy more than others, which you'll notice because you can compare. Emotions are like spirals in this way.

Hope this was less flamey.

[onlyamonkey]

I'll be perfectly honest here, you're the one sounding like you're on pms.
nu'uh. u r. :rolleyes:

Taking items out of context and dismissing them based solely because they're not of the same opinion as you seems a bit unfair.
Don't you think it's hypocritical accusing me of dismissing opinions because they're not the same as mine, and then not quoting and showing but instead just assuming I should see things from your eyes just because you write I'm wrong?

[Giant Tope]

wait what


hypocritcal


what

[Breakman]

And if your assessment leaves you feeling negative, then maybe you can learn how to appreciate other things in a game so you can enjoy it more. Because it's all about enjoying the experience, and you have the power to convince yourself to enjoy it more.

I wish I was masochist. I could force myself to enjoy Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics 2, and Final Fantasy 10...

[Graywing]

At you: Shut the hell up.

I hate you: Because you're trying to change the way I post
I don't like it: Because there's only so much you can summarize before everything's the same, and I like reading longer posts that can have some complexity and differentiation.

Both of these explain why you suck and should die. <end angry bite-sized rant>

I'm just plighting to keep things readable for people new to this thread and you personally attack me, if you want to write long posts why not start your own thread? I would be happy to read them then.

But really, this is your answer? You hate me and I should die ? Really? (I do hope you realize what kind of awful things you are wishing upon me)

Well thanks!

Back to topic: I still find 304 the best of the series so far, despite the few glitches and design flaws.

[Chuck]

Some of you guys really need to relax and step away from the forums for a little bit. These are videogames you're talking about; there's absolutely no excuse for personal attacks.

[Eyeball]

I must be fairly alone in that I really didn't care much for this episode, for several reasons.

Firstly, I feel that Lovecraftian Horrors are sort of overused in popular nerd fiction like video games. I know that the S&M comics also had Cthulhoid references, but such references are just not all that funny anymore. That being said, I thought Soggoth has ADORABLE and perfectly voiced - hope he returns in episode five.

Secondly, there were very few locations and not all that much to do in them. It seemed to me there was an even greater reliance on psychic powers than in the previous games, almost completely discounting the inventory. By now, this is getting repetitive for me - you find something that looks like a picture of anything, you use rhinoplasty, you find someone in need of distraction, you break out Charlie Ho-Tep, anyone saying "I will never tell you!" can be overcome with mind reading. Getting formulaic, which is why I'm looking forward to the final episode. Judging from this episode's ending, it looks like we might not get to play with psychic powers next time around, bringing back the ol'e inventory.

Thirdly, I did not like the secret identity of The Master. I was literally rolling my eyes when it became revealed. The Master was fleshed out a little later, but I still consider that specific plot twist silly.

Finally, the story of the entire season makes very little sense, even for Sam and Max. Every episode so far except for this last one has ended in a total non-sequitur and it annoys me.

Episode 1: Ends with you discovering skeletons of yourself
Episode 2: Ends with Max for no apparent reason standing around with his brain stolen.
Episode 3: Ends with an invasion of half-naked Sam zombies.

I realise it's some kind of homage to corny sci-fi shows, but it really doesn't grip me when the cliffhangers are so....bizarre and confusing. Thank God this episode had a cool ending and a good final showdown, even though there seemed to be little reason for you getting to the locations you did. "Oh wow, a gigantic evil villain lair with convenient exits to already explored locations just beneath Stinky's diner? Who'dathunkit!"

Which leads me to good things about the episode:

1. The revelation of the secret identity of Dr. Norrington was great and the good Doctor himself is excellently voiced, written and animated.

2. I loved the puzzle for getting the Cthonic destroyer. Messing with poor Sam was never so entertaining, particularly the romantic death scene. "Oh. AWKWARD!"

3. Animations were excellent. I especially liked the psionic battle at the end and the character animation in the end cutscene.

4. I like Sal. Girl Stinky could be written out of the show for all I care, but Sal's both funny and well-voiced.

5. This is also the funniest Old Man Stinky has been in ages. Who knew that all you had to do in order to win the old coot's heart was let him shotgun Sam in the face. In fact, the entire Diner Siege scene was funny - "Hurry up Sam, I'm running out of creative ways of shooting you in the face!"

Looking forward to the conclusion of the series.

[Planeforger]

2. I loved the puzzle for getting the Cthonic destroyer. Messing with poor Sam was never so entertaining, particularly the romantic death scene. "Oh. AWKWARD!"

I think I must have missed that. I just pressed a few buttons on the dimensional destabliser, Sam disappeared, then came back with the Cthonic Destroyer. Perhaps I was just extraordinarily lucky/unlucky?

[Pantagruel's Friend]

because this is, maybe, the only episode of the third season I resolved all the puzzles by myself instead of just bump with the solution the half of the time. I don't know if my appreciation is correct, of course, but that's what I'm thinking.


301 and especially 303 pretty much solved itself for me, so I kind of agree. 302 and 304 got me thinking here and there.

Some of you guys really need to relax and step away from the forums for a little bit. These are videogames you're talking about; there's absolutely no excuse for personal attacks.

Now this was an unexpected post if I saw any :)

[guitarsareboring]

Favourite episode of the season after episode 1. Still miss the inventory but I suppose I need to get over it.

Disappointed that we're (presumably) going solo in much of the last episode though.

[Falanca]

Maybe we should all write our own TL;DRs once the season is finished. It feels like my opinions on this season contradicts with others' greatly (especially of those who wrote ginormous forum posts about it), and I retain myself from typing out everything with a heartbeat since I want to make a complete, full detailed review of my own.

Oh, and, I also wouldn't be bickering with anyone just because someone thinks differently than I do.

[mathman77]

I loved this episode. The puzzles were better than in the last one, there were some great jokes, and the plot was the best of the season. But, it did seem a little shorter than previous episodes.

[thom-22]

The re-use of locations from episode to episode doesn't really bother me, since I think you have to look at all episodes combined as the equivalent of a game. So far we've had an alien spaceship, Bosco Tech, the office building basement, an early 20th century theater and neighborhood, an Egyptian tomb, a three-car train, the Noir streets, the Museum of Mostly Natural History, an alternative reality, a cloning facility, the warehouse docks, and the Statue of Liberty. Some of these encompass much more than a single room. Plus whatever's new in Ep. 5. That sounds like plenty for a single game, doesn't it?

[onlyamonkey]

I think I must have missed that. I just pressed a few buttons on the dimensional destabliser, Sam disappeared, then came back with the Cthonic Destroyer. Perhaps I was just extraordinarily lucky/unlucky?

There are 81 possible combos so I'd say you get unlucky.

[bobtheskutter]

I am surprised to read such praise for this episode. I found it the most linear and easy one yet. I felt like I was just moving from plot point to plot point. The whole season has been mainly about interactive story-telling for me and not puzzle-solving to be honest but this episode felt to be pretty much devoid of puzzles entirely. *shrugs* I don't know why I felt this way but others did not. But there you go.

Hey, story-wise it continues to rock my world and I am enjoying it immensely. But I am enjoying it for the plot and not the gameplay.

I was very happy by the way with the lack of hints in the episode. I was nervous about using Futurvision and so it didn't come out much but I am pretty sure it was used better this episode. And there weren't many randomly helpful bits of dialogue to annoy me. Yay.

[Falanca]

I am surprised to read such praise for this episode. I found it the most linear and easy one yet. I felt like I was just moving from plot point to plot point. The whole season has been mainly about interactive story-telling for me and not puzzle-solving to be honest but this episode felt to be pretty much devoid of puzzles entirely. *shrugs* I don't know why I felt this way but others did not. But there you go.

Hey, story-wise it continues to rock my world and I am enjoying it immensely. But I am enjoying it for the plot and not the gameplay.

I was very happy by the way with the lack of hints in the episode. I was nervous about using Futurvision and so it didn't come out much but I am pretty sure it was used better this episode. And there weren't many randomly helpful bits of dialogue to annoy me. Yay.

Interestingly, the major revelation of this episode's villain disappointed me a little, but I thought it wasn't a waste at all since the puzzles were the most creative ones in any Sam and Max game.

[Rather Dashing]

I'm just plighting to keep things readable for people new to this thread and you personally attack me, if you want to write long posts why not start your own thread? I would be happy to read them then.

But really, this is your answer? You hate me and I should die ? Really? (I do hope you realize what kind of awful things you are wishing upon me)

Well thanks!
YOu're taking humor far too seriously, and I'm sorry you did because I really wasn't going for that kind of reaction. Hell, I only used the word die because it rhymes with pie! It's hard to convey a point in such a small space, but I attempted to in this case for the sake of humor. It apparently did not go over well with you, though I apparently have some positive reviews of that post as well, so it's at least subjective. Anyway, I do apologize that you took it literally.

Long posts are perfectly readable. In fact, they're a good deal BETTER than short ones. "I liked the game. Puzzles good. Graphics good. Soda Poppers BAD!!!! NO SODA POPPERS!! Music good!". I prefer my discussion forums not to be a simple catalog of opinions, and that's what you get closer to when you're asking people to trim out hundreds of words. And inflection is somewhat lost as well, notice my summary of WHY YOUR POST WAS BAD.

In all of my longer posts, I think about what to say and how to say it, and how what I'm saying contributes to the overall message that I'm trying to convey. It's not an extended analytical thing for me, but something that just comes naturally when writing anything of somewhat substantial length, forum posts included. Hell, I've even excluded a lot of thoughts, much to my detriment, because the way I presented my opinions seems to have allowed everyone else to say I have a narrowed viewpoint, when I'm just trying to keep it trimmed down to what's important. I've happily read longer forum posts than the one in this thread, I've written longer posts, and I think they contribute a great deal more than something that amounts to a list of common categories next to switches marked "Yay" and "Nay".

Also, there's a cool thing about long forum posts, and that's that people can elect not to read them at all. A person who thinks of forums as long lists of opinions that either clash with or affirm their own? They can just scroll right past. Hell, the post isn't even taking up real-estate in the thread! There is no limit to how many words can be in a thread! I'm not using up a limited resource! So it's cool! People who hate reading, people who see large boxes of text as incendiary attacks to the eyeballs? You can escape! Stop and scroll!

-----
OnlyAMonkey, your post is less inflammatory, but the problem is that it's now confusing, self-contradictory, and implies that everyone should be searching to be in equilibrium with everyone else. You say I should like something because most people like it, or dislike it because most people dislike it, in order to "sacrifice for a greater good". I don't think homogeneity is in the best interests of a discussion forum, unless the point of a forum is to allow the largest subset of people to have their opinions affirmed by others rather than to, well, discuss with a variety of thoughts and viewpoints.

Also, I could totally be snarky and go to town about your "how people see things" remark, but suffice it to say I think you should read over your own post and see where you may have said things that contradict what you say elsewhere in the same post.

[Jake]

Bite sized rant... Hm... Is it too late to change my username?

If it'd stop your in-character posting, no, it's never too late to change your username.

[Comrade Pants]

If it'd stop your in-character posting, no, it's never too late to change your username.

Jake, my good friend! You know my in character work livens up the place. You'd miss it if it were gone, I'm sure.

[Jake]

Also, Rather Dashing, Greywing, and anyone else involved in your "talk to each other about the contents of your posts, instead of about 'your opinions on 304,'" take your conversations to PMs right now.

If you guys have something to say to each other and just each other -- and you've been spilling a lot of ink on the meta-conversation within this thread, so I'm assuming you do -- PMs should be a perfectly fine place to continue the conversation.

If you feel that's not appropriate, if you feel you need an audience to continue blasting your thoughts on each other out into the forums at full volume for the entertainment or interest of others in public, then, well, I hope you can see how dumb that would be without having to go further.

[Rather Dashing]

Also, Rather Dashing, Greywing, and anyone else involved in your talk to each other about the contents of your posts, instead of about "your opinions on 304," take your conversations to PMs right now.

If you guys have something to say to each other -- and you've been spilling a lot of ink on the meta-conversation within this thread, so I'm assuming you do -- PMs should be a perfectly fine place to continue the conversation. If you feel that's not appropriate, if you feel you need an audience to continue blasting your thoughts on each other out into the forums at full volume for the entertainment or interest of others in public, then you guys should just stop entirely.
Ah, you're right, of course. It's totally veered completely out of the correct context. Whether or not it's a useful discussion to have, I now realize that it's not a useful discussion to have here, and I apologize for derailing without thinking about it.

[EvilMonkeyG1]

Seriously this season has been so good.... I just can't see a better sam and max game. Now telltale that doesn't mean I don't want a season 4 (needs it) but just wow. This episode also just..... is it just me or the the scope a lot more epic this time arround.

[tabstis]

I think if they did a Season 4, it would be in a completely different style. All elements of the paranormal stuff have been explored in Seasons 2 and 3 and I think it could come back but not be the main focus.

As long as they could create the same new great characters they have for this series (skunkape, papierwaite, norrington, sal) with all the planning they do, I'm sure they couldn't go far wrong with another season.

[Graywing]

Ah, you're right, of course. It's totally veered completely out of the correct context. Whether or not it's a useful discussion to have, I now realize that it's not a useful discussion to have here, and I apologize for derailing without thinking about it.

I apologize for this thread-derailment and no hard feelings about your reaction, as said I probably took it a bit to literal. So big hugs for everybody (limited supply, one per customer) and lets get things back on track:

After a week letting the experience sink in, I found a couple of things I did not like with 304:


Traveling between locations took more time then it should. Phones were located at inconvenient places (Momma Bosco's lab for example). So most of the time it took less time just walking from point A to B.



It took me quite a while to realize the dementional destabilsor was actually of any use. If you converse with Momma Bosco about it before you are able to operate it, the reaction suggests its as useful as all of the other devices in the room.



Somehow a bug with Momma Bosco not wanting to teleport onto the platform had me puzzled. No matter what I tried she wouldn't get up there. I enabled the hint system and it didn't spout any useful tips on getting her up there. (in the end she did teleport.. reluctantly)



Stop getting my hopes up by labeling dr. Norrington's office as "Office" on the teleportation toy!...

So in the end, all problems were (even if they weren't) caused by Momma Bosco. And on a side note: All glory to Buster Blaster!

[qwertyuiop]

Attitudes

First off I will say that I love the Sam & Max games. "Hey, I'm playing Sam & Max!" is the dominant thought for me, which overshadows any thoughts of presumed gameplay length. What's great about the series is that each one strives to improve from the previous episode. Think back to the first season when, at the time, the fans were like "Sam & Max 3d game! Awesome!" Now we have season three, much more epic and mold-breaking episodes. I like the 6 episode length of season one but plot and puzzlewize there was a sameness overall, the typical two sets of three elements stuff. Even season 2 dealt with some of that.

Mold-breaking is the name of the game. I guess that's why many of the old characters have been removed. In many cases it's because the jokes have been too familiar. "What's crazy Sybil got for a job this time?" "What's crazy Bosco paranoid about this time?" Episode 301 is a treasure trove for those familiar with the lore of the past games because so many questions about missing bits can be answered.

Changes

Like I mentioned several things are gone for season three that I am happy with. At top are the driving and/or shooting mini-games from the past. At those points it was "great, now I've got to bust out poor skills instead of my wits". The DeSoto has been underplayed this season, mostly due to teleportation or other psychic travel like astral projector. The car has been beaten up so much recently that I hope it gets a break soon.

Though some characters are gone I still wish that they get a chance to cameo in the last episode. Boscoe being replaced by the (somehow reversed aged, when compared to her 205 appearance) ghost mom. Him and Buster Blaster going to Vegas was an interesting write off. I keep hoping at the beginning of the season that there would be a vegas episode, which would open the chance for bad magic acts and whatnot. Though it makes sense that Buster Blaster doesn't stay with the COPS. He doesn't have some useful function and he can't easily fit in the DeSoto along with everyone else.

That's something I kinda miss from the the past two seasons: a sense of travel. Sure, in season 1 it was only Straight&Narrow plus some other spot (expanded in season two). But exploring more of the city is nice.

In fact, if one was only to piece together the major beats of the season (excluding astral projection in the past) this is the only Sam & Max case to take place in UNDER 3 DAYS! The amount of immediate plot connection from one episode to the next is amazing and well done. Past seasons had over-arcing plots and at the start of episodes the characters suggest that like the audience a month has past in-between (excluding 204/205). For season 3 Sam & Max deal with Sunkape in one day; watch/experience the events of their ancestors in the evening during a movie; max gets his brain stolen, Sam solves the case that night and the reality shift could almost make a time loop; and now later in that same night we have episode 4. Wow. And future vision cues suggest that episode 5 takes place the morning after the statue of liberty incident. And we have yet to step into Sam & Max's office. Give a hand up for the writing staff (claps)

Even season three changes come to fruition for episode 4. We finally get a full bevy of Toys of Power instead of two or three. Especially given the wait between the usage of some of the toys like the mind reading cards. In fact, using toys with specific powers reminds me of episode 106 with all the magical talismans.

Fav Moments

In the first dinner scene there is the picture of the DeSoto. Using Rhinoplasty turns Max into the...little DeSoto. I kept that form for most of the game even though it would alert the Sam clones.

Grandpa Stinky eating the Max cake. I kept waiting for a "is my spleen missing" or such joke since a part of the cake was taken.

Charlie Ho-Tep. I wasn't expecting this and despite the slight stereotype it was well played. The game provides subtle hints to Charlie's plights at becoming the villain. At first I was like "Charlie's back? Sweet, time for ventriloquisim fun!" Cruising through that penultimate scene I thought "Ok, let's distract the clones with Buster Blaster again OMG THE DUMMY IS ALIVE!!" Upon this revelation at the next available moment I decided to go to an earlier save point because I had missed the Master option at the microphone. I replay the events up to that point again and when I activate ventriloquism with this new knowledge I notice Charlie's position and his eyeball: HE HAS BEEN STARING AT US THE ENTIRE SEASON! Creepy.

One of the random dialogs when talking to Max, mentioning how the Devil hasn't appeared since it's his toybox in the title. Despite the backstory that still would be cool, see below.

Glitches

I had the disappearing sticky notes during the destabilizer puzzle, which made it all the more challenging. But the craziest ones were in the cloning chamber once Sal had dropped. Sam & Max were looking up at the center and I forgot what I clicked on but suddenly they were up on the command center without using the phone! Then after future vision I thought of shooting Stinky and they were back on the balcony shooting up at her! Another time I got them up there normally and took the elevator back down but Sam got stuck in the hole for the lift, unable to move. Switching in and out of Max mode fixed that and it never happened again.

Predictions

There are still plenty of of things left unanswered for the finale. I think there could be main Toy of Power or two missing. In the season trailer there is what looks like a pair of x-ray specs with the other toys, which is odd because we already have a goggle toy with the future vision but it could be for actually seeing through things, unless that was a beta element.

Sam will end up eaten by Max and that would lead him to a dark dimension place to live out all of the future visions from the destabilizer puzzle. This is probably how you get back the real Max.

Telltale rarely has throwaway characters. Heck, even Brady Culture gets another appearance after 2 seasons from 101 to 205. So anyone new from season 3 is good game for return. I still think the random tourist guy might be part of something bigger. While playing I thought he might be the Master because that would be so out of left field but then Charlie Ho-Tep comes out of right field.

And the alien brain is bound to return. Lots of brains this season: alien brain, Sammunmak (Sam and Max) brain, Max's brain. He could be the big bad behind everything. My top picks are the alien brain, the narrator, and the tourist guy. The narrator's pretty cool. I'm sure he'll directly interact with the characters at some point. He almost sounds like Beelzebub from season 2 though it just might be the accent. Also, I thought Charlie's squeaky voice sounded alot like the Soda Poppers so it could be one of the voice actors, I can't remember.

Beelzebub would be a cool reappearance. At the end of 205 he menacingly mentions that he will meet Sam & Max again. Despite him showing up at the wedding during the credits the menace is very suggestive. After all, the series is about his playhouse, it seems.

If Leonard Steakcharmer, Jurgen's Monster, or Philo Pennyworth showed up again that would be hilarious. But that's mostly wishful thinking.

Sal is not dead (characters in these games never stay "dead" for long". He just fell a long ways and is probably trapped somewhere, unable to hear here. Momma Bosco has also wandered off by this time so maybe she found him while exploring the cloning chamber.

Puddin' head Lincoln and the Chrysler Building incident will occur. All minor future visions (not the wrong future episode 1 prologue) have occurred by plot events on and off screen. Also I like all the events throughout the season where Sam is worried that Max's powers will become disastrous.

[Tilan]

There are still plenty of of things left unanswered for the finale. I think there could be main Toy of Power or two missing. In the season trailer there is what looks like a pair of x-ray specs with the other toys, which is odd because we already have a goggle toy with the future vision but it could be for actually seeing through things, unless that was a beta element.

Puddin' head Lincoln

The x-ray specs are the Nutrispecs, a hidden toy in The Penal Zone, that's still a PS3 exclusive so far even though it was planned for the PC/Mac versions. The Pudding Head Lincoln scene happens with the Nutrispecs.
(I don't have the PS3 version myself but it has been mentioned several times on these forums)