learnin german

[roumeaz]

how about some nice tutorial for learning a bit german?

german of today is very straightforward and sterile and it uses toooo many
hard t's & s'es and nearly all words end with e(spoken), that freaks me out every time.

ich bin hier .. ig bin hear .. i am here

be excellent to each other .. seid excellent zueinander .. side excellent sou.i.nun.duh

- to be continued -

[jeeno0142]

I am useless with foreign languages. Never get the pronounciation, can never form a complete sentance, and then I always forget what I've learnt within the week. I've tried french and spanish as they were mandatory, and out of all the years of learning them, I can only say hello. I've heard before that German is easier as it's closer to English than the other languages, but I am sure I'll personally never get to grips with it.

It'd be nice to know how to say 'hello' in German though! I promise I'll remember that.:rolleyes:

[Avistew]

Guten Tag is hello, I believe.

It's a really nice idea but I'd suggest using actual phonetics or attaching sound files, because I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the "english-like" pronunciation thing. Plus there is a risk people might remember that as the spelling instead of the proper one.

[roumeaz]

a is allways spoken as in UP: clear, without any glitches with tong or lips ..

english: hello - hell.ou
german: hallo - hull.ou

[Mandahaya]

Funny idea, that one. (You could also just notify all the German people here to talk about random stuff in here, write everything in German and translate it into English after somebody innocently guessed what it was all about. So you have loads of German stuff to read and later also have to understand it.)

Kartoffelsalat ist fast genau so lecker wie Nudelsalat, aber nichts geht über Pizza :D
(Kartoffelsalat - Car-tough-el-sa-laad (too lazy to translate everything in that way now, gotta work on fanarts) - potato salad!)

(It means 'potato salad is almost as tasty as noodle salad, but there's nothing better than pizza.)

[Katsuro]

german of today is very straightforward and sterile and it uses toooo many
hard t's & s'es and nearly all words end with e(spoken), that freaks me out every time.

Uhm...
I... don't really think your description of the german language is accurate.

[Avistew]

So Kartoffel is potato, Nudel is noodle, and "better than" is "über" without a "than" word?

What genders are Kartoffel, Nudel and Salat?

[Javi-Wan Kenobi]

One of the first (if not the very first) word I've ever learn in German is "Zutaten" ("Ingredients"), because it was always the first one on the Ingredient lists on the multilanguage-labeled snacks!

[Alcoremortis]

Oooh! I need to learn some German by this Wednesday. Some family friends who only speak German are coming over then and all I know is Guten Tag and the lyrics to Zegeunerlieder (spelled wrong).

[Mandahaya]

Avistew: 'Better than' means 'besser als', it was just a more appropriate translation for that part. Normally it would have been 'you just can't beat pizza', but that would've meant 'nichts schlägt Pizza'. In German language, we translate things a little different sometimes so they simply sound better. :D
Kartoffel is feminine, Nudel is feminine too, and Salat is masculine.

'Über', by the way, is actually 'over' or 'upon'.

Javi-Wan Kenobi: Multilanguage-labeled snacks? Sounds tasty.
Alcoremortis: It's Zigeunerlieder. :D

[Alcoremortis]

Alcoremortis: It's Zigeunerlieder. :D

This is why I need to learn German.

[Avistew]

Thanks!

So Xsalat becomes masculine due to it being a type of salad, right? Or does it vary?

And if I was to do a more literal translation, you said something like "nothing is/gets over pizza", is that it?

(Do all nouns take a capital?)

[doodinthemood]

Guten Tag, Ich bin in der naher von mein Katze.
Viederstand ist Zwecklos.

[ChemBro]

Guten Tag, Ich bin in der naher von mein Katze.
Viederstand ist Zwecklos.

Schon mal ein guter Anfang... um, I mean, that's a good start. ;)

And there is a nice joke for "Widerstand ist zwecklos", that might only work in german. --> http://kristof.niederholtmeyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/widerstand.jpg

[Soultaker]

^^ why German only? This is the same joke:
http://notes.vandenbedem.net/upload/resistance_is_futile.jpg

Wenn ist das Nunstruck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!

[taumel]

@roumeaz
Vielleicht wär's ja auch angebracht, wenn Du selbst erst einmal ein wenig Deutsch lernen würdest? Deutsch und straightforward, oh jeh! Aber irgendwie ist's auch schön, daß dem nicht so ist.

[ChemBro]

^^ why German only? This is the same joke:

Ah, well. I thought "resistor" is the word for that small box, not "resistance". That's why I thought, the joke only works in german.

[Soultaker]

Ah, I suppose so. But a resistor produces a certain amount of resistance in the network, so in that sense the joke still works. (I believe "Widerstand", like the Dutch "weerstand", is the word used for both resistance and resistor, so depending on how you interpreter the German joke, the English one could either be the same or slightly different.)

[Laserschwert]

Guten Tag is hello, I believe.
Actually it's "good day", but as in "hello", right. (Isn't "good day" a farewell in english? That's what I learned from Fez in "That 70's Show"... although Fez isn't probably the best character to learn English from :D)

So Kartoffel is potato, Nudel is noodle, and "better than" is "über" without a "than" word?

What genders are Kartoffel, Nudel and Salat?
Kartoffel and Nudel are female, Salat is male. Don't ask why :D

[TomPravetz]

Memme = Coward or Yellowbellied
Panzertape duct tape

[Soultaker]

Kartoffel and Nudel are female, Salat is male.
Thank you, this neatly summarizes why I will never be able to speak or write German properly, despite understanding it reasonably well.

[Javi-Wan Kenobi]

Ah, well. I thought "resistor" is the word for that small box, not "resistance". That's why I thought, the joke only works in german.It works in Spanish too. "La resistencia es inútil"

[Avistew]

Actually it's "good day", but as in "hello", right.

Right. Most languages I can think of work that way thought ("bonjour" in French, "buenos días" in Spanish, "dzień dobry" in Polish, etc) so I didn't think I needed to specify that.

Thank you, this neatly summarizes why I will never be able to speak or write German properly, despite understanding it reasonably well.

And none of them are neutral yet! :P

[roumeaz]

don't put the flag on the nevada desert (cough) on the moon before you have landed there. so start slow n chilled and easy.

there are exactly 10 different vouls in german which allways are spoken da sahahame!!!
a e i o u .. a = up . e = has . i = bin . o = hot . u = boot
au ei eu .. au = a+u . ei = right . eu = voice
oe(ö) ue(ü) .. oe = earth . ue = oui,rue

ie = long i .. a e o u gets enlonged by adding h

[roumeaz]

raumfahrt liebeswacht zauberkrieg
spacetravel lovewatch voodoowars

ch after . e i . is spoken like a creepy y(as in yes)
ch after . a o u . is spoken like a creepy g
z = t+s
when attaching another word to one ending on the infamous e(in singular), s will work as the glue

[Giant Tope]

You didn't even make it snow in san diego.

[roumeaz]

if i would let it snow in places where no snow should fall, i realy would start some kind of .. lets think .. wetterverdrehungsumschwungentfesselung

words that will be added to ung also need s

[Giant Tope]

You said you would do it, but then you didn't. You're just chickening out because you can't actually do it.

[roumeaz]

the only thing i want to prove to myself has to do with a one gallon bong ... and not using illegal stuff ..

[Shwoo]

Writing words down phonetically is always a problem because of accents. The American A, as in cat, sounds more like a short E to me, for example, and the American short O sounds a lot more like a long A.

I think the best way to learn how German words are pronounced is to hear them spoken, preferably with subtitles.

[TomPravetz]

Writing words down phonetically is always a problem because of accents. The American A, as in cat, sounds more like a short E to me, for example, and the American short O sounds a lot more like a long A.

I think the best way to learn how German words are pronounced is to hear them spoken, preferably with subtitles.

bomb
comb
tomb

[der_ketzer]

I think the best way to learn how German words are pronounced is to hear them spoken, preferably with subtitles.

right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMmG9TrYyAE

I hate this video and it's not even from Germany.

[OzzieMonkey]

I did German for 7 years in primary school (yeah, we have prep here) and then another 2.5 years in secondary college. I decided not to learn German anymore, as I was kind of getting sick of it. I also felt there was no progression going on, especially with the teacher. She is horrible. Also, I wanted to do something that would help me more on a career basis, so I went with programming.

Anyways, enough of me going on a tangent, let's talk German!
It's a fascinating language, very close to English. So, I'll try and say something in German.

Ich komme aus Australien und ich bin funfzehn jahre alt. Ich wohne in Melbourne. Ich bin gross Monkey Island fan!

[Shwoo]

bomb
comb
tomb
What about them?
right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMmG9TrYyAE

I hate this video and it's not even from Germany.
German subtitles, I mean. English ones aren't very helpful.

[TomPravetz]

What about them?

b-aw-m
c-oh-m
t-oo-m

[Avistew]

Tom means that although these words are spelled almost exactly the same way, their pronunciation isn't very consistent.

I think the point was that "writing sound" isn't just inaccurate and prone to error due to various people's accents but also due to the nature of the English language by itself, which has a weaker link between spelling and pronunciation as some other languages do.

[serweet]

I thought Die Prinzen was the best way to learn German

[MeisterGlanz]

I think Die Ärzte are better. For example in Lasse Redn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ne6Yelufs) (the song text is in the youtube description) the pronunciation is very clear.

And then there is also Majus first Monkey Island short (http://www.majusarts.de/film/monkey/GER/monkey_ger.html).

[Shwoo]

And then there is also Majus first Monkey Island short (http://www.majusarts.de/film/monkey/GER/monkey_ger.html).
He speaks really fast in that. Lots of simple sentences, though.

[roumeaz]

most grammar stuff is done with m n s t e ig ung and changing vowels to others, but the easy part is .. german vowels are allways spoken the same

ss(ß) = s
v = f
c = k

[roumeaz]

some vocabulary

nice woman = suesse frau
mean coworker = fieser mitarbeiter
computer = rechner
boring = langeweile -> langweilig
nerd = depp
president = kanzler
cat = katze . dog = hund . mouse = maus
squirrel = hoernchen (oak = eiche, so they realy are called eichhoernchen)
racoon = dachs . snake = schlange . bird = vogel . parrot = papagei
starship = raumschiff or sternenschiff
hate = hass . love = liebe
dumb = dumm . smart = schlau
horny = geil . fu... = fi... .. shit = scheisse (sch = sh)
holliday = urlaub . break = pause
i drink = ich trinke . eat = esse . fart = furze . dance = tanze . cry = heule . laugh = lache
e and en are very often used grammarwise to correct stuff
old school = alte schule (e harmonizes stuff)
friend = freund . show = sendung . failure = versagen . money = geld . conspiracy = verschwoerung
lizard shapeshifter = echsen formwandler(chs = gs) . naz... german ufo = reichsflugscheibe (imperial flying disc)
sea = see . pirate = pirat, freibeuter (buccaneer i think), seeraeuber
coat = mantel . boot = stiefel . hook = haken . ship = schiff . flag = flagge . sail = segel
captain = capitaen . soldier = soldat . weapon = waffe . sword = schwert . map = karte
shovel = schaufel . treasue = schatz . ghost = geist . i fight = ich kaempfe
afterlife = jenseits . i lie = ich luege
mediocre dinosaur = mittelmaß -> mittelmaessiger dinosaurier(i think this is the only word were ie is spoken as in cashier)

[Trenchfoot]

We need Majus here!

[Mermaid]

german of today is very straightforward and sterile


"Sterile"? How can a language be "sterile"? Juicy dirty talk's also possible in German.

After living one year in Holland and coming back I have to admit that I understand what people mean by saying it sounds harsh. It's not exactly a beautiful language, but it's precise. And that's not a bad thing.

[taumel]

Deutsch ist eine wunderbare Sprache; man muß sie nur richtig verwenden. Es gibt fantastische Texte und auch wohl klingende Dialekte. Für mich ist's die schönste Sprache, die ich bisher gehört, gelesen und vor allem gesprochen sowie geschrieben habe. :O)

[KuroShiro]

This is a really interesting thread. I love trying to learn new languages. German has always struck me as a very musical language in spite of being a bit harsh. There's a reason a lot of traditional opera and song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XP5RP6OEJI) was in German.

Maybe I should try to make one like this for Japanese :D.

[Iron Curtain]

german vowels are allways spoken the same

Not the letter "e." When stressed, it sounds like the "a" in "paper." When unstressed, it sounds like the "a" in "Tricia."

[thesporkman]

As an Ancient Greek and Latin student, I sometimes wish I had decided to study languages that were more... useful... and less... dead.

[Avistew]

As an Ancient Greek and Latin student, I sometimes wish I had decided to study languages that were more... useful... and less... dead.

Try and look at the bright side. Now that you know Latin, you'll have an easier time learning all the Latin languages! And ancient Greek probably helps at least some with modern Greek!

[Alcoremortis]

I took four years of Latin, and all I really got out of it was a comprehensive understanding of the Aeneid and some nifty insults.

[Andorxor]

Ich bin gross Monkey Island fan! => Ich bin ein grosser Monkey Island Fan!

Adjective are changed depending on the gender if they are used before the noun.

That is a big house =>Das ist ein grosses Haus
The house is big => Das Haus ist gross

He is a big boy => Er ist ein grosser Junge
He is big => Er ist gross

[taumel]

Wegen des langen Vokals schreibt man großer und nicht grosser.

[thesporkman]

I took four years of Latin, and all I really got out of it was a comprehensive understanding of the Aeneid and some nifty insults.

That's a good quote, and one worthy of a (hopefully more or less accurate) translation:

"Quattuor annos linguae Latinae studui, atque vero sola quae accepi ampla intelligentia Aeneidis et aliquot optimae contumeliae erant."

[Avistew]

Ich bin gross Monkey Island fan! => Ich bin ein grosser Monkey Island Fan!

Adjective are changed depending on the gender if they are used before the noun.

That is a big house =>Das ist ein grosses Haus
The house is big => Das Haus ist gross

He is a big boy => Er ist ein grosser Junge
He is big => Er ist gross

So, let me get this straight: adjectives agree if they're direct complements, but not if they're indirect complements. Did I get that right?

EDIT: you only talked about gender. Agreeing can be based on gender but also numbers. Do adjectives also agree in numbers when they're direct? (As in, singular is different from plural).

[serweet]

(I have this all writen in a book somewhere, but don't know where it is so appologies if I have made mistakes, and is no doubt not the full explanation)
The ending on an adjective all depends on whether it is plural or singular, gender and then case.
There are trables than can be written out to show which should be used with what such as the word for 'the'

-----M---F--N--Pl
Nom der die das die
Acc den die das die
Gen des der des der
Dat dem der dem den

then the endings depend on where the word for the is used, or whether you need a marker to define the gender and whether it is singular or plural

If the word for the is used, then the adjective will be as followed

-----M F N Pl
Nom e e e en
Acc en e e en
Gen en en en en
Dat en en en en

then when you don't use the word for the, and use a, then it follows

-----M F N Pl
Nom er e es e
Acc en e es e
Gen es er es er
Dat em er em en

So when you have an noun, you know what case it is from the adjectives or word for the, and so the word order is more versatile than in english. For example you can say both:
Die Katze sah den Hund and Den Hund sah die Katze, both meaning the same thing.

[Iron Curtain]

Hmmm...

Der Hund beißt den Mensch. (unberichtenswert/not news)
Den Hund beißt der Mensch. (berichtenswert/news)

[thesporkman]

So, do nouns ever decline? Or is their case only ever indicated by the articles and adjectives agreeing with them?

[Avistew]

Suddenly I remember why I'm so terrible in German.

Would you mind explaining the cases for everyone? Very slowly if possible? And what words use them and stuff?

I stopped studying both Latin and German because of declinations. I just couldn't get the hang of it. It's been over ten years now though so I'm definitely willing to give it another try.

[Alcoremortis]

That's a good quote, and one worthy of a (hopefully more or less accurate) translation:

"Quattuor annos linguae Latinae studui, atque vero sola quae accepi ampla intelligentia Aeneidis et aliquot optimae contumeliae erant."

Wow! I actually understood some of that! And not at all because I already knew what it said. >.>

I guess I learned a bit more in Latin than I thought. :D

[serweet]

In terms I understand and so therefore are probably basic and wrong:

In german and english, 4 cases (though some european languages have 8).
The Nominative, Accusative, Dative and Genitive.

The Nominative is the noun which does the verb, such as 'I' in I eat Pizza.

In this sentance, Pizza would be in the accusative, because it is what the verb is doing the action to. This is the direct object in the sentance.

The Dative is usually when the noun is an indirect object in the sentance, as in the verb isn't done to it.

As for the Genitive, this shows possesion and is usually where we in english see the word 'of', or 's added onto nouns.

The accusative and dative are also used with preositions (in, on, under, around etc.)
There are three lists in German for what case a preposition takes:
"Um, ohne, durch, für, gegen, entlang, wider, bis" always take the accusative and "mit, nach, seit, von, zu, aus, außer, gegenüber" always take the dative.
All the other prepositions depend on whether there is movement involved or not. When there is movement it takes the accusative, if not, the dative.

Finally, some verbs, such as to help, take the dative.

[thesporkman]

Suddenly I remember why I'm so terrible in German.

Would you mind explaining the cases for everyone? Very slowly if possible? And what words use them and stuff?

I stopped studying both Latin and German because of declinations. I just couldn't get the hang of it. It's been over ten years now though so I'm definitely willing to give it another try.

If it helps to think about it, personal pronouns in both French and English are still declined to some degree.

For example, let's look at the sentence "Je le lui donne" ("I give it to him.") Obviously word order is extremely strict in French, but you could theoretically rearrange the words to something like "Le donne lui je" and still make some kind of sense out of it (kind of, sort of, maybe...) You still know that "je" must be the subject because it's in its subject form; it's "je" and not "me." Likewise, "le" must be a direct object, and "lui" must be an indirect object.

Maybe that's a dumb example. I'm not a native or even a fluent speaker of French, so I don't know how much sense that made. But basically, in a language with declination like Latin, all nouns and adjectives have inflected forms that reflect their syntactic function, just like pronouns in English and French.

I could go into a lot more detail, but I'd have to talk about Latin or Greek grammar specifically, because that's what I know...

[Avistew]

I see what you mean, but it's pronouns... I'm used to it with pronouns. Not nouns. I guess it's silly when you think about it because you're right, pronouns are different depending on whether they're subject (je, tu, il/elle/on, nous, vous, ils/elles), direct object (me, te, le/la, nous, vous, les) or indirect object (me, te, lui, nous, vous, leur).
(Note that a lot of them do stay the same though).

It might help me thinking of it that way though. Instead of it being with just pronouns, thinking of it being with nouns too. Maybe that will help me remember it and "get it". Thank you so much for that perspective :)

EDIT: oh, and of course, there is also "moi, toi, lui/elle, nous, vous, eux/elles."

[serweet]

Well personally I cannot cope with french, the words although spelt differently often have similar sounds and although I'd like to be able to speak it, I just couldn't get the hang of it.
Russian's rather hard to get a grips with, sometimes they just cut out pronouns altogether and use the verbs as the verb ending lets you know enough!

[thesporkman]

Russian's rather hard to get a grips with, sometimes they just cut out pronouns altogether and use the verbs as the verb ending lets you know enough!

Yeah, that's what's called a "pro-drop" language. Latin, Greek, and Spanish are like that too.

Another way of thinking about cases: noun cases are used instead of certain prepositional constructions. So, for instance, French nouns have no possessive form. You can't say "the king's daughter;" you have to say "the daughter of the king" ("la fille du roi.") English has a possessive case, and it allows us to express the same thing in a slightly more concise way.

Basically, it's a trade off. A language in the Indo-European family will either have a noun case for something, or it will have a prepositional construction for it. A genitive case is used for possessive and partitive constructions instead of "of." A dative case is used for indirect objects instead of "to." An ablative case is used instead of "from." An instrumental case is used instead of "with." A locative case is used instead of "in." And so on.

Theoretically a language could have tons of different cases and no prepositions, but most will have only a couple unique, stand-alone cases and then one or more oblique cases that get paired with prepositions.

There are, of course, some cases that can't really be matched with prepositional phrases. The nominative is used for subjects and frequently also for indirect complements in copulative constructions. The accusative is used for direct objects. The vocative case is used for direct addresses. Most non-declined languages represent these through word order and punctuation.

But you get the idea. Noun cases are just different ways of expressing the same sorts of things that prepositions and word order are used to express in other languages.