...my opinion about episode 3

[taumel]

Okay, episode 3 is another enjoyable adventure and more or less comes with the same strengths and infirmities as the other episodes before.

It's kind of short and too easy. I only got stuck for a while in the beginning when i had to deal with Leonard because i didn't examine the room good enough and so missed the big shiny nose which also was a little bit of a problem due to the camera/steering in this room. But beside of this it was more like a movie were you had to click a few times in order to keep the movie playing. Mostly you know already what to do and just wait for the characters to do so.

You feel this lack of challenge and depth even more as you already got through e1 and e2 and so are more experienced by now. Take for instance the final scene were you have to defeat the don and manufacture the toy in order to hypnotize him beeing on fire. You get the idea, do it and that's it, over. In old skool adventures you would think of the obvious but then *oops surprising* there would be a hurdle or two in between so that it's actually a challenge for which after you've solved it get a reward in the form that the game is going on. I'm really missing this. I sometimes felt like the game doesn't need me at all. Really improve the puzzles difficulty, inventory puzzles, insert misleading things, add some more depth puzzles with some hurldes in between. Not every puzzle has to be a harder one of course. The mix is the key.

I really wonder what's wrong with my brain that this is so plain easy...

Contrary to e2 and the in my opinion unfunny and displaced cow the appearance of Leonard was nice as i accidentaly played Texas Hold'Em the day before and Boris Krinkle was a character i really enjoyed - old banana head! :O)

But speaking of Leonard the part were you have to squeeze something out of him was a dissapointment as the options weren't funny at all and again it was way too easy. If you implement something like a Monkey Island Sword fight then why don't you do it right? Funny options and challenging in a way that each time you choose something wrong he relaxes one step again, so that you need three or four right insults in a row to beat him. You know in Monkey Island you also would have to look for where to learn the right insults first - i miss such things.

The other mini game the "whack a rat" also was too easy. Why not decreasing the score if you hit a wrong one accidently? But hey i loved the sapceship door! :O) But i missed some more detail on the flower at the entrance, a little bit swinging or a normal map, she looked so sad.

Beside of Leonard i couldn't enjoy the characters of e3 as much as the ones of e2. The characters in e2 were great! In e3 they were somehow steril and i didn't find them interesting.

There were some really good animations in e3. I enjoyed the ending scene with the robot arms, the pumping pipelins and the nice animations of Sam&Max. Really well done! A thing i'm not sure about are the mimics of Sam&Max. Each time they show up it more looks like somekind of polygon cancer to me. And also if it would be done well, i don't know if they would be needed due to that part of the humour of Sam&Max to me comes out of the fact that they say different weird things with stoic faces.

The music was nice as always but despite how much i liked the song number ten i found it displaced for the scene and the mood there. I'm not sure if this comes because i've been listing to the song before but i guess even if not i would have choosen another one there. And again in this room, there would be so much to explore and use for riddles but nothing nada zero zip, so much artwork and it's not beeing used!

Technically i had some issues that the game was jerking from time to time. This also showed up in old scenes like for instance when Sam&Max walked along the office street. I didn't experience this before. Also with the sound i noticed that Sam was sometimes speaking more silent and louder in the same dialogue - in the gambling room for instance.

All in all i would give it one point less than the other episodes before as it still lacks what i'm waiting for, so i would give it a 7 out of 10. I'm really looking forward to e4 and the hopefully improvements on this one!


Thanks,

taumel

[Haggis]

It's kind of short and too easy. I only got stuck for a while in the beginning when i had to deal with Leonard because i didn't examine the room good enough and so missed the big shiny nose which also was a little bit of a problem due to the camera/steering in this room. But beside of this it was more like a movie were you had to click a few times in order to keep the movie playing. Mostly you know already what to do and just wait for the characters to do so.
I got stuck on that exact same puzzle. But overall, the puzzles were good. They made sense, which is what Telltale are trying to accomplish - not puzzles that make you tear out your hair in frustration, but not on the level of a kids game either. And since the puzzles should be getting progressively harder in the next couple of episodes, that's a good thing.

As for the rest of the game, I loved it. My only gripe is that one of the bears sounded exactly like Bosco, but that's the only thing. Bosco himself was great. As was the game. :)

Oh yeah, and the memory leak thing sucked a bit, but I'm sure you guys can find a solution to that in episode 4, right? :)

[taumel]

Yep, Bosco was good. I enjoy entering his shop. I just feel it could be a little bit more life in there sometimes. Not even japanese visit this place! And whilst we're at it, i love the normal mapping on the ice cream. Each time i see it it reminds me of a tasteful peppermint ice... :O)

As for the puzzles: Yes they are logic but they're too easy.

[Yohmi]

Just to say, I don't think the same thing ;) but there is so many threads speaking of this, and it has already told that next episodes would be harder and harder. About the (s)wordfight, I'm happy that it don't go back when you tell something wrong. Why ? because I'm not english neither american nor any english speaking country. And if I understand most of the time, when it's time to do word associations with strange sentences, it's more difficult... and would make me angry to try randomly sentences and zap them before they end just to hope next will be the right one. If you want this part being very harder, just think taht the whole lenght of the game would prncipally depends of interrogating a thief by telling him "yo ma". We are in an episodic adventure game.
We all want longer games... but your thread is just aother "about the difficulty..." answer.
And about the nose, It's exactly the kind of funny enigmas, when you have to think of how to solve before to see it.

I really love this episode, the ambiance was so great, mafioso with teddy bears, so unpersonnal, as puppets. I love the music, a very great work about lightning, a better animation (and facial animation, like max's mouth or even his face, which is not for me ugly or something), It's the best for me, there is many improvements in it, the only deceiving thing is that it's too short... but now it's in 4/3 even if your display is on 16/10, they even cut the intro of street music ! very great :)

[taumel]

I'm also not a native english speaking person and i don't feel that it would add much too the difficulty for us as you remind just some keywords and not the whole sentences. The way it was done here felt incomplete and too easy and i couldn't enjoy it.

[Sir Lemming]

Why not decreasing the score if you hit a wrong one accidently? It does! Or maybe that's only after the first time you do it... I felt that part was as hard as it needed to be.

[taumel]

I played it twice and had the impression that when i first played it and cliked on anything my scores wasn't decreased. And on my second try i had 22 or 23 without any problems.

By the way i'm curious when Bosco will enter his german phase. If you need some help i'm german...bavarian! :O)

[Kord]

Hi everybody!
I just finished the game and found it to be the shortest and easiest to date. The nose puzzle wasnt hard at all, especially since the camera points right at it when you pass the entrance....
Just three new rooms was a little small.
Hope the games will be harder in the future.

Despite all of that, I am still happy those games exist.
Cheerio!

[fathamburger]

Theres a problem with making more difficult games. The reason why Adventure games fell out of popularity is because a lot of the puzzles were not logical and unnecesarily obscure, requiring certain things to trigger, walking in and out of rooms to "reset" states etc and people ended up just clicking everything on everything.

Sam and Max has the best shot of bringing adventure back into the mainstream by keeping things accessible and focused on the story and writing and bringing more potential fans into the fold that might not even know what an adventure game is.

[taumel]

That's interesting that you say so because i have no idea why they stopped making adventure games. For LucasArts i would have thought it was due to StarWars. For the other ones i think there a two reasons a) the adventures got worse and people lost interest in certain titles, b) the industry/some players didn't found them hipp anymore due to fps or whatever came up those days.

I only can speak for myself and the people i've talked about this and the only reason not to buy each adventure anymore is simply because they've released a lot of crap. Take for instance the last Broken Sword Title. What a brilliant first title and then everything got worse. I bought part 1,2 and 3 but not the last one anymore as it simply wasn't working for me in many aspects anymore and so did others.

Regarding the puzzle's difficulty i wonder why the majority on this list as well as the majority of the gamemags i've read exactly say this: That it's too easy and lacks some depth?!

A good game isn't strong in only one aspect. It has to be good on several ones and as for adventures games this strongly involves puzzles!

But there's the evidence that at least one combining puzzle might make it's way into the game as Sam&Max collect one item from each episode in their office (brady cultures' hair and a hypnotizing bear toy so far). I bet this will be needed in the final episode or even before. Hopefully not automatically as usual...

[taumel]

And refering to how logic the puzzles are.

How logic is it to alter Leonard's cheating method whilst he's still sitting at the table in the same room? In a more challenging and also more logic puzzle you would first have to distract him in order to cheat his device without that he could notice this.

Same with Sybil. Does it feel logic to take her cup of coffee away right in fornt of her without distracting her or finding a reason for her to give the cup away?

So...

There were quite a lot of adventure games beeing released the last years especially from german companies but they do all lack in the quality aspect somewhere. May it be the puzzles, the characters, dull dialogues, too short and so on.

Personally i really would prefer having one very good adventure game (a 9 or a 10) instead of dozens of okayish adventures and that's something i haven't seen since a long long time.

[Acidyl]

I have to agree. There wasn't a single hard puzzle to solve, neither was there anything really funny in ep 3.

The solutions to puzzles are to logical and therefore to easy, and there's so little new places with so little things to click, you have to have the memory of a 2-year old to not realize what to do.

Even more, all the characters point out what you have to do (spoiler: you see leonard look up behind you towards the nose), and everything is right there where you need it(spoiler:the screwdriver is laying right next to the broken one-armed bandit, the ketchup is at bosco's since ep 1 so you know it's there.

Overall, entertaining? yes. funny? wellll, somewhat maybe. Getting very close to being to short/easy for even the small amount of money it costs? definetly.

[Yohmi]

And refering to how logic the puzzles are.

How logic is it to alter Leonard's cheating method whilst he's still sitting at the table in the same room? In a more challenging and also more logic puzzle you would first have to distract him in order to cheat his device without that he could notice this.

Same with Sybil. Does it feel logic to take her cup of coffee away right in fornt of her without distracting her or finding a reason for her to give the cup away?

So...

There were quite a lot of adventure games beeing released the last years especially from german companies but they do all lack in the quality aspect somewhere. May it be the puzzles, the characters, dull dialogues, too short and so on.

Personally i really would prefer having one very good adventure game (a 9 or a 10) instead of dozens of okayish adventures and that's something i haven't seen since a long long time.

I totally agree with your speech about "half enigmas", if we take Monkey Island or Broken Sword, we have to find always a wat to distract or influence people to obtain what we want.
But I think things are getting harder in next episode.

And about a single one adventure, well... the problem is that when I have one, I finish it in three days, here it's just like playing a good game every month. But only a good game, that's true, not more... a single adventure let have something I love : useless people and inventory objects. In episodic format, every single character has a role, just like it was an articulation of the mainline. But there is no really distracting and funny useless people like we have in a broken sword for example ^^

Yes, a great single adventure would be fine also... but waiting two or three years for thre days of playing... it's hard ;) when you see what you have to wait... Runaway, beautiful, maybe great, but not really funny at all... Syberia, just booooooring... and all the myst like, I prefere to not even mention them, it's a different style. Well, I think that's also why I don't complain much about episodic format ^^

[lerenwe]

Bosco's becoming one of my favourite character!

Sacrebleu! I'm french and I don't speak like that! Sons of a cordon bleu!

Ouh lala! I've really enjoyed the jokes about french peoples, you've got a funny thought of us :)

Aurevoir, chers américains! (Et habitants d'autres pays!)

[numble]

lerenwe: Use the cap gun on Bosco.

[shadow9d9]

Theres a problem with making more difficult games. The reason why Adventure games fell out of popularity is because a lot of the puzzles were not logical and unnecesarily obscure, requiring certain things to trigger, walking in and out of rooms to "reset" states etc and people ended up just clicking everything on everything.

Sam and Max has the best shot of bringing adventure back into the mainstream by keeping things accessible and focused on the story and writing and bringing more potential fans into the fold that might not even know what an adventure game is.

Sorry, but unless you have some sources I am unaware of, you are only ASSUMING why adventure games fell out of favor. There were plenty of games with logical puzzles. Why couldn't it have fallen out of favor because of better graphics and the coming of FPS popularity, online games, better graphics on consoles, etc?

Last I checked, at least 5 adventure games come out each year, which is still more than pc rpgs.

Your whole argument is based on the fallacy that you alone know why adventure games fell out of popularity.

If the future of adventure gaming is based on super easy 6 item puzzles, then I want nothing to do with it.

Btw, why has myst been so successful(1-5 which was released JUST LAST YEAR)? It is anything but simple...

Syberia brought people back to adventure games... Sam and Max(super easy and super short) is very unlikely to.

Plenty of great logical adventure games have come out since the decline in 1999 or so-

The longest journey, syberia 1-2, barrow hill, dark fall 1 and 2, runaway, return to mysterious island, voyage, agon, myst 4 and 5 etc. None of these were easy or simple or short. All did well.

[Princess_Frosty]

Probably the easiest Sam and Max episode to date, none of the puzzles required much thought at all and like has already been described, I felt it was more of just a story which required me to click a few times in order to progress.

The knock on effect of this is that the episodes become very short, only taking one or two hours to complete tops.

The number of Characters and objects in the game are way too few, this radically decreases the number of possible combinations of objects/people to complete a puzzle.

I hope to see more from the last 3 episodes, it seems obvious that there is much grander plot going on, I hope that the last episode contains all the locations from all the previous episodes with at least one main puzzle in each so the final episode is longer and harder.

I still like the series because I've paid for all the episodes, and I'm a great lover of the original, but should there be a 2nd series I think i'd avoid it unless there was the promis of much more difficult puzzles.

[shadow9d9]

"The longest journey, syberia 1-2, barrow hill, dark fall 1 and 2, runaway, return to mysterious island, voyage, agon, myst 4 and 5.
Also going to add Keepsake, Al Emmo, Ankh, Scratches, Samorost 2, The Moment of Silence, Still life, Broken sword 3 and 4, myst 3, Faust...

None of these were easy or simple or short.

How could you say there is a decline in adventure gaming with 20+ titles released with good reviews in the last 5 years or so!? Name 20+ pc rpgs with good reviews in the same time... I don't see anyone complaining about the death of them! Adventure gaming has experienced a revival and it hasn't been because of super easy gaming.

[Sir Lemming]

For the record, I still think the Indian Poker puzzle is as hard as it needs to be, but I agree that with that puzzle and the Sybil puzzle you should have to distract them first. That would add an interesting element of difficulty without making the puzzles any more obscure (because you'd at least know what to do at that point, you'd just have to figure out how to do it).

As for the idea that these games need to be this easy to be mainstream, I do think the reviews have disproven that theory. Almost every reviewer thinks the games are too easy and (therefore) too short, and that's not something that will encourage people to spend money on the episodes, is it?

[Maratanos]

"The longest journey, syberia 1-2, barrow hill, dark fall 1 and 2, runaway, return to mysterious island, voyage, agon, myst 4 and 5.
Also going to add Keepsake, Al Emmo, Ankh, Scratches, Samorost 2, The Moment of Silence, Still life, Broken sword 3 and 4, myst 3, Faust...

None of these were easy or simple or short.

How could you say there is a decline in adventure gaming with 20+ titles released with good reviews in the last 5 years or so!? Name 20+ pc rpgs with good reviews in the same time... I don't see anyone complaining about the death of them! Adventure gaming has experienced a revival and it hasn't been because of super easy gaming.

Sorry, but unless you have some sources I am unaware of, you are only ASSUMING why adventure games fell out of favor. There were plenty of games with logical puzzles. Why couldn't it have fallen out of favor because of better graphics and the coming of FPS popularity, online games, better graphics on consoles, etc?

Last I checked, at least 5 adventure games come out each year, which is still more than pc rpgs.

Your whole argument is based on the fallacy that you alone know why adventure games fell out of popularity.

If the future of adventure gaming is based on super easy 6 item puzzles, then I want nothing to do with it.

Btw, why has myst been so successful(1-5 which was released JUST LAST YEAR)? It is anything but simple...

Syberia brought people back to adventure games... Sam and Max(super easy and super short) is very unlikely to.

Plenty of great logical adventure games have come out since the decline in 1999 or so-

The longest journey, syberia 1-2, barrow hill, dark fall 1 and 2, runaway, return to mysterious island, voyage, agon, myst 4 and 5 etc. None of these were easy or simple or short. All did well.

Hooray. We're repeating ourselves... :rolleyes:

Oh, and here's a point for you...

The Myst series has been so widely popular not because it's hard (in fact, the hardest game, Myst 4, is one of the least popular, for that very reason), but because it has, by and large, appealed to an extremely large population of people... Young, old, male, female, rich, poor, any race you like, the list goes on...

And although I really don't expect you to believe me, but that's pretty much exactly what Telltale is doing by making their games maybe a little simpler than you'd like.

[shadow9d9]

Riven was hard and popular..same with the original myst. You don;t appeal to wider groups of people by making things easy.. you could always use a walkthrough or hints if too difficult.. nothing you could do about too easy.

[Maratanos]

Riven was hard and popular..same with the original myst. You don;t appeal to wider groups of people by making things easy.. you could always use a walkthrough or hints if too difficult.. nothing you could do about too easy.

Actually, no. (http://www.casualgamedesign.com/?p=39#more-39)

[numble]

If the future of adventure gaming is based on super easy 6 item puzzles, then I want nothing to do with it.


2 things:
1. Name one super easy 6 item puzzle (yes, I realize that the context is hyperbole, sarcasm and exaggeration--but have you ever realized that those are generally frowned upon debate tactics?)
2. Assuming said "super easy 6 item puzzles" are indicative of Sam and Max: Season One and you want nothing to do with it, then why are you here?

---edit:
Ok, I've just thought about this and I feel that my issue is just the way you say things; while many people qualify their opinions with "In my opinion, 'I believe,' or 'I have a different opinion,' you go and say things very definitively--you will say things like "Sorry, you're just wrong," or "Such an opinion is ridiculous and unworthy of a response," "Who in their right mind would think/feel that way?" and "Don't expect the future episodes to offer any more game." Along with the point that these are opinionated statements that come off sounding like hard-set facts, such tones are also both presumptious and condescending--even worse when coupled with hyperbole--and in my opinion, it is a major reason why people respond to you the way that they do.

[lerenwe]

lerenwe: Use the cap gun on Bosco.

Noooooooooooooo, I can't believe it!

That was sooooo funny^^ Oops, excusez moi, les enfants, je suis hors-sujet^^

[numble]

Noooooooooooooo, I can't believe it!

That was sooooo funny^^ Oops, excusez moi, les enfants, je suis hors-sujet^^

On that note, what do the quasi-French words that Bosco say translate to?

[Maratanos]

I seem to recall seeing someone say they weren't quasi-French.

[shadow9d9]

"2. Assuming said "super easy 6 item puzzles" are indicative of Sam and Max: Season One and you want nothing to do with it, then why are you here?"

Sam and Max 1 and 2 both have about 6-9 items... therefore limited possibilities which make the games easy.

I have already answered the second question about 10 times now(all within the last week for sure). Feel free to look them up. They are not hidden. They have also been answered by others here in posts within the last 3 days. Additionally, the answer is obvious and logical. I know it is not a sam and max type puzzle, but it isn't hard either.

[shadow9d9]

Actually, no. (http://www.casualgamedesign.com/?p=39#more-39)

Using an opinion piece does nothing to prove me wrong other than providing another opinion.

[numble]

I have already answered the second question about 10 times now(all within the last week for sure). Feel free to look them up. They are not hidden. They have also been answered by others here in posts within the last 3 days. Additionally, the answer is obvious and logical. I know it is not a sam and max type puzzle, but it isn't hard either.

I know--you've said that you are here and that you criticize in hopes of things getting better, but there is at least one post where somebody had the same sentiments (IE, I hope and expect the future episodes to be more difficult and offer more game) and you responded with something akin to "You shouldn't expect more game from later episodes."

In effect, you were actively discouraging people from expecting better. Why would somebody do that? In hopes of expecting better? That seems contradictory to me.

[shadow9d9]

I know--you've said that you are here and that you criticize in hopes of things getting better, but there is at least one post where somebody had the same sentiments (IE, I hope and expect the future episodes to be more difficult and offer more game) and you responded with something akin to "You shouldn't expect more game from later episodes."

In effect, you were actively discouraging people from expecting better. Why would somebody do that? In hopes of expecting better?

So you admit to asking a question you knew my answer to...

The next quote was taken out of context.. if you give the full quote, including the context, I will gladly clarify it for you.

In the off chance that it was the entire context, it would mean that episode 3 was already reviewed and was unanimously declared to be even shorter. Not referring to games that haven't been released yet.

[numble]

So you admit to asking a question you knew my answer to...

Yes, because I feel it is contradictory.


The next quote was taken out of context.. if you give the full quote, including the context, I will gladly clarify it for you.

In the off chance that it was the entire context, it would mean that episode 3 was already reviewed and was unanimously declared to be even shorter. Not referring to games that haven't been released yet.

Here is the quote, I think that it does refer to unreleased games.
Don't expect more game from the next episodes though.. their development time is the same as that one.. 1 month.. they are pumping em out now.

Regardless of whether or not the development time has been corrected from 1 month to 3, your key point, that "their development time is the same as that one" is true, since Jake pointed out that "Minor details aside, episode two's production cycle was no different than three's, which will be no different than four's."

Therefore, expectation that there won't be "more game" in future installments due to the same production time as Episode 3.

QED: You are actively discouraging people from expecting better. Yet you say that you're purpose here and your reason for critiquing is so that you can expect better. But I feel that the evidence is contradictory, so I asked, not so that you can refer me to previous posts, but so that you can explain this apparent contradiction.

[shadow9d9]

Yes, because I feel it is contradictory.



Here is the quote, I think that it does refer to unreleased games.


Regardless of whether or not the development time has been corrected from 1 month to 3, your key point, that "their development time is the same as that one" is true, since Jake pointed out that "Minor details aside, episode two's production cycle was no different than three's, which will be no different than four's."

Therefore, expectation that there won't be "more game" in future installments due to the same production time as Episode 3.

QED: You are actively discouraging people from expecting better. Yet you say that you're purpose here and your reason for critiquing is so that you can expect better. But I feel that the evidence is contradictory, so I asked, not so that you can refer me to previous posts, but so that you can explain this apparent contradiction.

Geez... did you read the posts after that quote? Do so and come back...

[numble]

Geez... did you read the posts after that quote? Do so and come back...

Do you really want to play this game (again)? First off, how does it not refer to later games, which you insist?

Secondly, my original post already acknowledges that what happened afterward (correction of presumed development time from 1 month to 3) is tangential to your main point, that people should not expect more game because the latter episodes have the same development times as the 3rd episode, which remains true, whether or not it is 1 or 3 months.

[Maratanos]

Hey guys... Don't feed the trolls... ;)

[shadow9d9]

Do you really want to play this game (again)? First off, how does it not refer to later games, which you insist?

Secondly, my original post already acknowledges that what happened afterward (correction of presumed development time from 1 month to 3) is tangential to your main point, that people should not expect more game because the latter episodes have the same development times as the 3rd episode, which remains true, whether or not it is 1 or 3 months.

Sorry, not going to play this game again.

I corrected my statement in that thread, therefore if you want to keep reading it with ignoring my correction, feel free, but I won't be responding.

If ep 4 is double the length of 1 or 2, I'll be back in the game rather quickly.. but if they are making money at a short length, they have no motivation to make it longer.. they'll just make the same.. but still hoping!

[shadow9d9]

Hey guys... Don't feed the trolls... ;)

I'm trying not to feed him, but it is hard to resist. Remember- trolls=smearing people with other opinions/passive aggressive way to attack other members here.

[Maratanos]

:eek:

Really? That's what you thought I meant?

[ReverendTed]

This conversation may have strayed a bit from the original idea, but I thought I'd chime in:

I felt this episode was probably the easiest so far, and also felt like the shortest. Almost none of the puzzles seemed "deep" enough, and the phone call at the beginning felt like a cop-out - explaining things that should have required some exploration and discovery.

I haven't really laughed at much in the last three episodes - the humor just isn't as incisive as I expect from the furry duo. There have been a few moments that were chuckle-worthy (most related to Bosco - who alternates between being the funniest and most irritatingly un-funny character in the series so far), but nothing really notably funny.

One of the more glaring problems for me is the duo's (particularly Sam's) repetitive animations. I understand that they're probably necessary to keep the budget reigned in and churn out the episodes at the promised rate, but it just gets tedious watching Sam make the exact same movements over and over. The old sprite-based characters had a nifty unique animation for nearly everything you did, but the repetitive nature of their 3D avatars is such that for me the highlight of Ep 3 was watching Sam clutch his hat at the end.

However, the overall issue I take with the series is likely a result of the episodic nature, and something I alluded to earlier - there just doesn't seem to be enough "depth" to any of the puzzles.
Sure, the items in the closet will probably need to be combined in one of the final episodes to solve a puzzle, but the inability to carry items or puzzles over from one episode to the next really limits the complexity, and therefore the challenge and sense of accomplishment associated with any of the puzzles.
It might be nice to have a few items (or changes to the environment) carry over from episode to episode in order to add a little meat to the puzzles as the series progresses. For instance, why didn't I need to find (or acquire) some item at the abandoned(?) television studio in order to complete a puzzle in the current episode? (There were a lot of then-useless props in that first studio set when we last visited...) It's not like it would require the production of many additional assets to re-use the location.
Or what if, in order to obtain Bosco's latest "ingenious invention", you had to acquire for him some random knob or knick-knack that you would find incorporated into his next invention in the following episode. ("Why exactly do you need us to bring you a vacuum cleaner, Bosco?" "It's a secret, but I can tell you this: it's going to suck!")
Obviously, those aren't specific requests, but just examples of the type of things that could at least add the illusion of depth and continuity to the puzzle aspects of the game.
(Ok, so we did have one item from Ep 1 - the "Tear Gas Grenade Launcher" - at the start of Ep 2.)

Since I bought the entire season, each episode will probably be worth the $6 I paid for it, but I just don't feel like the series is living up to the reputation that the Sam and Max title deserves.

[Hero1]

The fact that Telltale want to make "stand-alone episodes" so that anyone can jump in and play a particular episode without playing the others..is holding the series back from building each episode. Since they are locked into that idea..you cant carry over items in your inventory from the previous episode..it doesn't get harder the further you progress like a standard adventure game.

[shadow9d9]

The fact that Telltale want to make "stand-alone episodes" so that anyone can jump in and play a particular episode without playing the others..is holding the series back from building each episode. Since they are locked into that idea..you cant carry over items in your inventory from the previous episode..it doesn't get harder the further you progress like a standard adventure game.

True, but they could add more locations and more items if each episode were 5-7 hours. It isn't the standalone that's hurting them as much as the fact that they want to pump them out. Raise the price a few bucks and double(triple) the length I say.

[jp-30]

The fact that Telltale want to make "stand-alone episodes" so that anyone can jump in and play a particular episode without playing the others..is holding the series back from building each episode. Since they are locked into that idea..you cant carry over items in your inventory from the previous episode..it doesn't get harder the further you progress like a standard adventure game.

Telltale stated people can jump in an any point in the series, and while strictly true, it's pretty clear that anyone who does so is missing out on the overarching plotline.

And what do you mean the series is being held back from building each episode? Are you playing the same games as everyone else?

Plus, didn't the tear-gun thing carry over from Episode 1 to Episode 2?

[numble]

From what I read and hear, I feel like Telltale is positively inclined to stick with the 1-episode per month episodic model for the Sam and Max franchise. As Dan Connors said in his recent interview, being out once a month allows them to stay top of mind, as the moment interest and conversation dies down on one episode, the next episode is right around the corner.

So I'm not sure if bumps in release schedule and price would actually be attractive--especially not mid-season, but maybe not even for future seasons. Most of their positive press (and if I get my shady inferences right, attraction from the big 3 console makers) comes from the fact that the season is a monthly release that has been staying on schedule--in fact, many comments on mainstream websites after Situation:Comedy came out were the (mistaken) dismayed comments about Telltale's inability to release Situation:Comedy 1 month after Culture Shock, as they had "planned" all along (in fact, Telltale had always planned on the initial 2-month period between 1 and 2). And the fact that Telltale has stuck to the schedule so far is bringing good press from some unlikely quarters, like forums about Half-Life 2 that complain about the changing release schedule for its episodes and people saying things like "Why can't they be like Telltale?" Changing it up, even if it's a change to another regular schedule, might result in similar negative attitudes--people would say "How do we know they're not going to change it again?"

I'd like to see how the latter half of the season--where many have claimed is where Telltale has started hitting its stride--measures up before pointing out problems with the development schedule. Coupled with Brendan Ferguson's claim that the first episodes are purposely designed to be easier, it may well be likely that some wishes will be accomplished without a change in schedule. The "But the season's not done yet" argument definitely becomes less usable as the season moves closer to the end.

That said, Connors also alludes to the possibility of different release schedules for other episodic games, dependent on the type of game--in his interview--"It could be every 2 or 3 months, or every week." I'm hopeful that a regular schedule for Bone gets established after the end of the Sam and Max season, and doubt that it's epic nature will lend itself to a monthly schedule.

[Hero1]

And what do you mean the series is being held back from building each episode? Are you playing the same games as everyone else?


That was in response to Reverend Ted's post..and his suggestions.. follow the thread...

In a normal adventure game as you progress.. you will have access to a larger number of locations, and will build a larger inventory. These episodes don't work that way. You start with a new episode, you only get 3 new locations, you cannot re-visit the tv studio or the home for child stars. You don't start off with all the inventory items from the past 2..or 3 episodes when you start episode 4. Its not 1 long game broken up into 6 episodes. Its 6 individual short episodic games. I was merely pointing out why his suggestions couldn't work in the series, but if you want to suggest I'm playing a different game than everyone else go ahead.

[Jake]

You two need to do a Telltale Forums podcast. The Hirohero and jp-30 show.

[Hero1]

throw in numble and I'm there :D :D

[numble]

throw in numble and I'm there :D :D

I don't have the proper accent.

[taumel]

Telltale stated people can jump in an any point in the series, and while strictly true, it's pretty clear that anyone who does so is missing out on the overarching plotline.

Is there a single story driven game where this really works? I doubt it...but hey you can do some Loadrunner Levels instead... :O)

And as for the playing time. As already stated by others before. Increase the complexity/difficulty/amount of the puzzles and the playing time will increase automatically without the need to add more rooms.

It's interesting that most of the other games come with possibilities which allow the user to adjust the level of difficulty to his/her personal needs. Only in adventures such a system isn't common (remembering the thread i talked to Emily about this). If this would be solved nicely than a lot of the "it's too easy or too hard hassle" would be gone.

The only alternative to me is that you succeed in delivering a perfectly balanced game where everyone is pleased. May it be that you start easy and increase the level of difficulty slowely or that you please everyone right from scratch. Both solutions would be more like a good book then.

[ShaggE]

Difficulty levels in an adventure game probably wouldn't work. A puzzle may seem mind-numbingly easy to one player, and mind-numbingly difficult to another. (Either way, minds shall be numbed... oh yes, they shall. Muahahaha!)

Plus, the designers would have to remake the puzzle from scratch for every setting. When the puzzle is elaborate and finely tuned, that can take much more work than most would be willing to put in. And if the solution is alluded to in dialogue beforehand, script rewrites might have to be done. Adventure games have a balance to them that other genres don't. The slightest alteration can bring down the whole thing.

[taumel]

No, i disagree.

There are many ways how to vary the difficulty also of adventures. Some of them have been discussed in other threads before without touching the puzzles too. Giving more hints visually, by characters, by sound, leaving out parts of a complex puzzle for the easy mode. For instance remember the puzzles about Leonard and Sybil i've written about in this thread before? In the more challening mode (normal) you would have to distract them first or argue that they allow certain actions from you first.

It always is more work adding diferent difficulty levels for a game but it does make a lot of sense as that's what people complain most about. Either you introduce such a mechanism or you put all the work into a improved balancing for all.

At the moment people are mainly complaining about that it's too easy. Once the difficulty is increased i bet that there also will be people who complain about that it's too hard, so...

[matan]

I think even better (and easier!) than allowing easy/difficult mode, is to provide alternative more difficult solutions to the same puzzles. The more difficult solutions could be more rewarding for some reason (for example, they would cause some funny dialog or animation, or reveal a little more of the plot). This as been employed to some extent, for example, in the old Sierra games, where you had a few ways to pass the Troll in King's Quest 1, or a few ways to pass the Sarien guards in Space Quest 2.

This has the benefits of:

a) allowing novice players to get through the game
b) allowing experienced players to be rewarded for spending more thought
c) giving a cool replay value - I'd replay the games again just to look for alternative solutions to puzzles.

[taumel]

I wouldn't alter the puzzles or the rewards as this might lead to a lot of work on the artwork side. I would prefer a hint system or that a certain part of a puzzle is left out for the easy version. So instead of a 5 step puzzle there are only 3 steps to accomplish. This a) rewards you already with more game to play and dialogues to listen and b) is easier to balance in my opinion.

I really wouldn't mind if telltale would experiment with this in the game as in the end we all could end up with adventures where less people are complaining about the difficulty.

[matan]

Just thought of a genious way to easily increase the difficulty in the game!! Here it is:

We could have a diffculty slider which goes from "1" to "10". In "1", the game would work as it does now. However, as the difficulty approaches "10" the mouse cursor would get more and more jiggly, so it would be very hard to point it to the exact wanted item. I bet telltale could implement this in a few hours.

[matan]

I wouldn't alter the puzzles or the rewards as this might lead to a lot of work on the artwork side. I would prefer a hint system or that a certain part of a puzzle is left out for the easy version. So instead of a 5 step puzzle there are only 3 steps to accomplish. This a) rewards you already with more game to play and dialoguies to listen and b) is easier to balance i my opinion.

I really wouldn't mind if telltale would experiment with this in the game as in the end we all could end up with adventures where less people are complaining about the difficulty.


Well, maybe you're right in that it would be easier to leave puzzles out in the easy version, but this still requires some work (more dialog to get around the missing puzzle). Also, I really liked it that in "Monkey Island 2" some of the puzzles are actually different and not just missing in the "lite" version.

I still think it would be more cool to have multiple solutions to puzzles, but oh well :)

[ShaggE]

Just thought of a genious way to easily increase the difficulty in the game!! Here it is:

We could have a diffculty slider which goes from "1" to "10". In "1", the game would work as it does now. However, as the difficulty approaches "10" the mouse cursor would get more and more jiggly, so it would be very hard to point it to the exact wanted item. I bet telltale could implement this in a few hours.

If they actually implement that feature, I reserve the right to set up a SAW-style trap for you, involving razor blades, malt vinegar, and a poodle named Phyllis. :p

[taumel]

@matan
The problem with those multiple ways of solving is that you have to invest a huge amount of work into something which most of the people won't see, so it's kind of wasted.

[Kunkku-Antti]

Difficulty levels. I am totally pro those. First, create a puzzle, then, make it more complicated for the hard version. Easy as hell.

[numble]

Just thought of a genious way to easily increase the difficulty in the game!! Here it is:

We could have a diffculty slider which goes from "1" to "10". In "1", the game would work as it does now. However, as the difficulty approaches "10" the mouse cursor would get more and more jiggly, so it would be very hard to point it to the exact wanted item. I bet telltale could implement this in a few hours.

Hah--if you've played Bone: The Great Cow Race, you definitely will know that they can do a jiggly cursor (it was for a minigame)--and it does make things hard.

[matan]

Hah--if you've played Bone: The Great Cow Race, you definitely will know that they can do a jiggly cursor (it was for a minigame)--and it does make things hard.

Right! I forgot about that one! Great, then they already have everything implemented and good to go :)

[numble]

Difficulty levels. I am totally pro those. First, create a puzzle, then, make it more complicated for the hard version. Easy as hell.

There are still some issues with this, in my opinion.

First off, difficulty is in the eye of the beholder--some will believe that a Myst-level of difficulty would be appropriate, while some would ask for a Grim Fandango level of difficulty--some people are asking for being able to distract people first, some people want red herring items, some people want red herring characters, some people want more (non-red herring) items, some people want to carry items you won't use into later episodes, some people want to revisit old locations, some people want item combination, some want to use Max, some want all of the above, and some say that the level of difficulty on the level of a Myst age would be appropriate--this is the same with the complaints about length; some people are asking for 30 minutes more in Episode 3, some just want an hour more, and some even are asking for it to be triple the length, with a bumped up price and a different release schedule.

Secondly, it turns the designers away from focusing away from their strengths--a very dense concentration of smartly written dialogue, towards coming up with ways to trick up the player. For example, it looked like the designers ended up having to hire an outside writer to come up with dialogues for Episode 2 and 3, to keep up with the pace of production--money that maybe they didn't intend to spend. It is true that experience makes puzzles easier to solve; many reviews have (rightfully) pointed out that Episode 3 seems easier because of your experience with the puzzles in the past. So to truly keep up with a harder difficulty level, the designers literally would be wracking their brains trying to figure out ways to trick the hardcore players that would play such a level, instead of wracking their brains coming up with Sam and Max dialogue (which is already very hard to do--try writing a Sam and Max webcomic). How frustrating would it be for a designer who after lots of doubts, decides to make the leap to creating a harder difficulty level, and then to later still face criticism that it was still not hard enough (given the different number and types of "make it harder" requests I outlined above--it is very feasible). In effect, it will make them try to design the hardest puzzles most possible, to get the criticism out of the way once and for all.

Third, not only does it makes designers' jobs harder, it may also lead to making the designers more lazy--sounds paradoxical, right? Here's what I think--instead of the ramping up of difficulty that Brendan says they are planning, they decide on splitting the difficulty level. That means there will always be easy puzzles for the easy players at a standard level, while there are very difficult puzzles in each new game on the hard level. In effect, designers will toss out lazily designed puzzles (since they're easy to design, they must be easy, right?) to the easy level, and the overall design philosophy for a progression of challenge is tossed out the window. Established easy-level players looking for more challenge must be tossed in the ever-increasing vat of acidic difficulty as outlined in the previous paragraph. But what about making a medium difficulty, you say? It would further exacerbate the lazy design problems highlighted in this paragraph and the "eye of the beholder" argument I made earlier. And these games aren't built with lots of money and time to throw around either...A segue into my last point.

These $6 games are built with extremely tight time and budget pressures. Spend lots of time designing (and programming) multiple levels and your time and money for other things like music and dialogue creation is lost (unless you start hiring more people, which still translates to money lost). As I read on another forum: "These games aren't made with employees pocket change in their spare time, they're made on a very regimented budget that can't slip in any direction. That means that every penny spent has to show up on screen. Why would money be - effectively - wasted making content deliberately designed just for one pocket of [the] overall audience."

Once again, there are no guarantees that moving in such a direction actually will satisfy everyone. As I said before, even though people are asking for "more difficulty," there is a vast difference in their opinions on the matter--look around--"some people are asking for being able to distract people first, some people want red herring items, some people want red herring characters, some people want more (non-red herring) items, some people want to carry items you won't use into later episodes, some people want to revisit old locations, some people want item combination, some want to use Max, some want all of the above, and some say that the level of difficulty on the level of a Myst age would be appropriate."

[Jake]

Having other writers come in has been in the plan for a while, so don't worry about that.

[numble]

Having other writers come in has been in the plan for a while, so don't worry about that.

Ah, though I did somewhat expect that, Jeff Lester's comment on his blog could've been interpreted differently, where he said, "Because they were working on such an ambitious schedule, they found themselves looking for a contract writer to help with the dialogues in Episode 3 to keep on schedule."

Still, my overall point is that there will probably be more costs when there are few guarantees of added benefits.

(Secretly, I was just using it as a point to show that it costs a lot of money to make these $6 games, even for the dialogue that some difficulty-hounds take for granted--did not actually believe that it was money you didn't intend to spend--Shh, don't tell anyone).

[Kunkku-Antti]

And some say they won´t preorder the next season. Like me. I might be in minority, and it doesn´t bother me. If I don´t like it, I´ll do something else. Also, the developers will be happy, I won´t be bitching here. Heck, why shouldn´t they make an interactive cartoon right away, that would surely scare me off buiyng their product (oops, I forgot that they already made three).

What would be the problem with ramping up the difficulty on both easy and hard mode? I mean, just keep on with the original production plan and simultaneously make insanely hard puzzles for the hardcorers. Surely Telltale´s employers have more experience in creating puzzles and maybe they have a wilder imagination (hopefully, they are professionals and get paid, I don´t) but it maybe took me an hour to design this in my head. I´ll quote myself from the past:

Let´s take a puzzle from Episode one:

SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER:

Drop a bowling ball and knock a soda popper unconscious.

That would be the easy puzzle.

Now, basically they would have to expand this puzzle a little bit. I came up with this after thinking for a while how the game could have been a little harder. It didn´t take too long.

Now, what if Sam doesn´t want to drop Lou because he suspects that some dude might stole it while he is upstairs? Well, Bosco could sell some extra-strong rubber bands in his store along with a heap of other useless junk (just to distract the player). OK, Sam notices that the rubber band won´t fit into Lou´s holes, it´s just a little too thick (after all it´s a rubber band and it´s, how should I put it, "twice fold" since it doesn´t have ends). Surely he could fit it in that hole if he could break it and make it more of a rubber string. But it´s extra strong and he just can´t break it with his hands. So, what if he walked outside and put the string on street sings on both sides of the road. When a car drives through, the band breaks (if you put a couple of extra bands there at the same time you could make a giant car-sling). So, now you have a string, and it fits into the hole but now there´s some empty space in that hole. Luckily Bosco sells extra fast cement in his store and you just have to get some water. Sadly, the water cooler is malfunctioning, the fish who lives there has been stuck in the tap and therefore you can´t just take water straight away. Well, you have a big gun so why shouldn´t you use it. Just shoot a hole into the water cooler, combine rubber string, Lou, cement and water and voila, you have a bowling ball yoyo.

More work? Yeah. More satisfied customers? I don´t know. It would even help if there were like three or four harder puzzles per episode in hard mode. That´s like a workday of thinking (and lots of programming, hehe).




And by the way, I don´t think the difficulty level of past adventure games didn´t cause the fall of the genre. I think the reason was just that they weren´t sexy enough anymore. That´s my opinion, my take on the discussion about the fall of the genre.

[numble]

What would be the problem with ramping up the difficulty on both easy and hard mode? I mean, just keep on with the original production plan and simultaneously make insanely hard puzzles for the hardcorers.

It is a useful argument, no doubt, but I feel that, like I described, it might lead to designers being lazy--an "easy" difficulty level gives an opening for cop-out lazy design. This argument comes up in education a lot, actually. The argument goes like this: A high school history teacher that has to teach 2 classes, "normal" and "honors/advanced" ends up just babysitting the normal class--showing videos, giving them busywork, not really encouraging thinking beyond superficial aspects on the subject matter--while focusing all of his/her energy on teaching the "honors/advanced classes." But if the students weren't divided as such and the same teacher were to teach 1 "normal" class, he would actually try much harder and the overall educational experience for all students is actually better.

Of course, wishful thinking is that teachers and designers aren't all like that, which is true--but I feel that the budget and time constraints of a monthly $6 game would make it more likely for designers to cut around the corners if they are now tasked to come up with what is effectively 2 games in the same time, with the same budget.

[matan]

Regarding the different difficulties issue - while I agree that having "easy", "hard" etc. difficulties is fun, I think it's kind of ridiculous to talk about it when the current puzzle difficulty is definitely below what would've been considered "easy".

numble, regarding the "difficulty in the eye of the beholder" - I think at the current non-existent difficulty level, people are not exactly expressing different opinions of what makes a puzzle difficult, but just offering suggestions for how to relatively easily make the puzzles a bit more difficult. It doesn't mean pepole define "difficult puzzles = lots of red herrings", just that adding red herrings automatically make the existing puzzles a bit harder - without need to change any of the puzzles.

I'm not exactly bitching, since as I've said - I'm perfectly happy with playing an interactive cartoon, but I still think the difficulty level of episode 3 was a little TOO low. I don't think it's because I'm getting used to the puzzles. Actually I solved the Sybil puzzle immediately by accident - I wanted to fill the cup with coffee but Sam didn't agree, so I just thought - oh, the ketchup is here nearby, and I used to ketchup last time - let's try filling it with ketchup. Then I didn't know what to do with it so I gave it back to Sybil. Then it was pretty obvious. Since that was supposed to be the hardest puzzle in the game, it kinda made the game super easy for me. Same thing happened in episode 2 - I've solved many of the puzzles by accident (for example - the probably hiding a cow puzzle, which I accidently solved on the first shot of the show). I think that's a side effect of having a small set without many items to interact with.

(For some reason, even though the first episode was smaller, I didn't solve any of the puzzles by accident and therefore it took more time and was more satisfying)

I still think the plot and dialog is getting better each episode, which is positive :)

[Kunkku-Antti]

numble, you are forgetting one pretty important motivator: money. As soon as the developers begin their lazy design it will be noticed. Even though the reviewers and fans have complained about the easiness of the puzzles perhaps everyone has still agreed that they were well designed. Certainly a review with words "the puzzles were badly and lazily designed and just bad" would scare away more players than "the game is too easy".

I don´t think they would have to design two games at once. Even a couple of harder puzzles would make me happy.

Sybil puzzle was soooooo easy, by the way. I didn´t even have to think about it.

[numble]

numble, regarding the "difficulty in the eye of the beholder" - I think at the current non-existent difficulty level, people are not exactly expressing different opinions of what makes a puzzle difficult, but just offering suggestions for how to relatively easily make the puzzles a bit more difficult. It doesn't mean pepole define "difficult puzzles = lots of red herrings", just that adding red herrings automatically make the existing puzzles a bit harder - without need to change any of the puzzles.

Yeah, I admit I kind of exaggerated when I lumped a lot of those suggestions together, but I'd still argue that there's a chance that the difficulty level, if given as a separate level, could still prove unsatisfying to some--it's not beyond my imagination to envision this kind of response to a separate, hard difficulty: "You call this harder?! This is medium difficulty, please make an actual hard level."

I am not arguing about the present easiness of the current levels, or that future episodes shouldn't be harder--only presenting reasons why the creation of separate difficulty levels might not be ideal compared to the established goal of progressively increasing difficulty for later episodes.

[marsan]

I thought episode 3 was hillarious. I thought the puzzle level was alright. But I don't want it too hard either, because then I just end up playing half of the episode and then forgetting all about it. What's most important to me is that the episode got good humour and that I spend more time laughing than scratching my head :D If I want to scratch my head, I would have bought myst ;). What is dying away from the rest of the adventure games is the adventure game humour, which is a special kind of humour you only find in adventure games(yeah, the same kind of humour you find in sam & max or Broken Sword), so I think that's a good niché to focus on. But of course, it wouldn't harm with more puzzles either. Maybe more ways to solve an episode would be something to consider if you get some spare time? (yeah right :p spare time ;) )

[numble]

numble, you are forgetting one pretty important motivator: money. As soon as the developers begin their lazy design it will be noticed. Even though the reviewers and fans have complained about the easiness of the puzzles perhaps everyone has still agreed that they were well designed. Certainly a review with words "the puzzles were badly and lazily designed and just bad" would scare away more players than "the game is too easy".


True, true--which is why my original post included other mitigating issues. Still possible that that other sections of the game--dialogue, for example, might suffer. And a review that said "Not funny" or "Bad dialogue" would also potentially scare away people. Time constraints for a monthly released $6 game are very real. But no, they can just hire more writers/designers to keep to the production schedule right? Except that one factor comes in again: money--if it costs $6000 to hire another writer, they will have to sell 1001 more games to justify that; (not to mention the extra game programmers needed to make the extra hard puzzles in the extra difficulty level) and I'm not privy to their market data to know if an added difficulty level will result in the extra sales to justify the added costs.

[Platypuss]

I've been playing through Sam And Max with my 9 year old daughter and it's been rather good fun. Last Saturday I downloaded Ep3, but as I was due to be out in the morning I let my daughter play on her own.

Of course when I got home later that afternoon I asked her if she fancied playing the game together.

I'm sure you can guess the rest...

When I signed up for the season I wasn't envisaging buying a kid-level difficulty game. I really hope Ep4 is a lot more challenging.

[shadow9d9]

It is a useful argument, no doubt, but I feel that, like I described, it might lead to designers being lazy--an "easy" difficulty level gives an opening for cop-out lazy design. This argument comes up in education a lot, actually. The argument goes like this: A high school history teacher that has to teach 2 classes, "normal" and "honors/advanced" ends up just babysitting the normal class--showing videos, giving them busywork, not really encouraging thinking beyond superficial aspects on the subject matter--while focusing all of his/her energy on teaching the "honors/advanced classes." But if the students weren't divided as such and the same teacher were to teach 1 "normal" class, he would actually try much harder and the overall educational experience for all students is actually better.

Of course, wishful thinking is that teachers and designers aren't all like that, which is true--but I feel that the budget and time constraints of a monthly $6 game would make it more likely for designers to cut around the corners if they are now tasked to come up with what is effectively 2 games in the same time, with the same budget.

"It is a useful argument, no doubt, but I feel that, like I described, it might lead to designers being lazy--an "easy" difficulty level gives an opening for cop-out lazy design."

You mean lazy like now?

Plenty of adventure games use a hard and easy mode-Monkey Island 2 and 3, loom...

Your bogus education comparison doesn't fit because plenty of games have used it successfully as stated above. Why would you compare it to education anyway when you could have just compared it to other adventure games?

[shadow9d9]

True, true--which is why my original post included other mitigating issues. Still possible that that other sections of the game--dialogue, for example, might suffer. And a review that said "Not funny" or "Bad dialogue" would also potentially scare away people. Time constraints for a monthly released $6 game are very real. But no, they can just hire more writers/designers to keep to the production schedule right? Except that one factor comes in again: money--if it costs $6000 to hire another writer, they will have to sell 1001 more games to justify that; (not to mention the extra game programmers needed to make the extra hard puzzles in the extra difficulty level) and I'm not privy to their market data to know if an added difficulty level will result in the extra sales to justify the added costs.

Actually it is a monthly released 9 dollar game. Only 6 if you pre-ordered while having no idea if you'd get your money's worth or not.

[numble]

"It is a useful argument, no doubt, but I feel that, like I described, it might lead to designers being lazy--an "easy" difficulty level gives an opening for cop-out lazy design."

You mean lazy like now?

Plenty of adventure games use a hard and easy mode-Monkey Island 2 and 3, loom...

Your bogus education comparison doesn't fit because plenty of games have used it successfully as stated above. Why would you compare it to education anyway when you could have just compared it to other adventure games?

Again, in context, I said this problem was exacerbated when combined with the mitigating factors of time, cost and release schedule for a monthly $6 game from a small development studio--this isn't a company with the backing of George Lucas' empire. Notwithstanding the fact that yes, I do believe that plenty of the easy puzzles in Monkey Island 2 and 3 were lazily designed, those games still took 2-3 years of development, were backed by a huge studio, and had a retail price of $40-60 initially, if I remember correctly.

Actually it is a monthly released 9 dollar game. Only 6 if you pre-ordered while having no idea if you'd get your money's worth or not.

If you can claim that the real price of a HL episode equals $9 (http://telltalegames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21368&postcount=10) (when that is a now non-attainable price point, you can only get it for $19.95 now), I can say that a still attainable price point of $6 ($5.83 actually) is the real price of a Sam and Max episode.

[NickTTG]

I don't know what I'm allowed to talk about, so I'm not gonna say much, but Ep 4 is great. It's length is a nice change from 3. Just when you think its over, you have a whole 'nother act. There are some great scenes in new enviroments and the puzzles are plentiful and more of a challenge. That said, keep you're eye out for the ep. 4 trailer. I promise it'll raise some questions in your little heads :)

[taumel]

Sounds good as long as there's no cow in the episode again. I'm waiting for some aliens now... :O)

[numble]

I don't know what I'm allowed to talk about, so I'm not gonna say much, but Ep 4 is great. It's length is a nice change from 3. Just when you think its over, you have a whole 'nother act. There are some great scenes in new enviroments and the puzzles are plentiful and more of a challenge. That said, keep you're eye out for the ep. 4 trailer. I promise it'll raise some questions in your little heads :)

Yeah, little comments here and there like these from you, Jake, Dan C, et al are what amounts to a lot of anticipation/excitement in me for Episode 4, so much that I may intend to avoid trailers/spoilers before I actually play it--I'll watch them afterwards, I promise.

[Kunkku-Antti]

I don't know what I'm allowed to talk about, so I'm not gonna say much, but Ep 4 is great. It's length is a nice change from 3. Just when you think its over, you have a whole 'nother act. There are some great scenes in new enviroments and the puzzles are plentiful and more of a challenge. That said, keep you're eye out for the ep. 4 trailer. I promise it'll raise some questions in your little heads :)

SPOILER TAGS PLEASE!!!! It would have been a nice surprise!

[numble]

SPOILER TAGS PLEASE!!!! It would have been a nice surprise!

I agree--pretty big spoiler.

[Kunkku-Antti]

Unless, there´s TWO false endings!

[Jake]

there are eighteen. and, i've spoilerified everything to protect your virgin eyes

[Hero1]

Unless, there´s TWO false endings!

Yeah umm I would have much rather found that out while playing the game :(

[Derwin]

Lucky for me, I will forget by next month.

Yay for shortterm memory!

[numble]

Here's my take on how to ameliorate it--avoid all reviews/trailers until you actually play the game--come on, how many people actually want to see/read about what an episode with the great title of "Abe Lincoln Must Die!" will actually contain before they actually play it?

[NickTTG]

Sorry to those who're upset by the "spoiler". I was just looking at 4 pages of people complaining and offering all of they're insight as to what Telltale needs to do and it killed me. So i was just throwing that out there to relieve some of the tension. I wouldn't consider it a spoiler, but I'm sorry to those who did. It won't hurt the greatness of the game.

[shadow9d9]

"I do believe that plenty of the easy puzzles in Monkey Island 2 and 3 were lazily designed"

I completely disagree.

[numble]

"I do believe that plenty of the easy puzzles in Monkey Island 2 and 3 were lazily designed"

I completely disagree.

Of course--that's why I qualified the statement with "notwithstanding the fact that..." which basically means--it doesn't even matter. It's easy to quote out of context.

[Jake]

further spoiler tagging added

[numble]

Very funny.

[Emily]

Episode 4? Huh? There is no episode 4. It's a big lie. We're skipping right to episode 5, a la Leisure Suit Larry.

Also, episode 3 has my favorite ending sequence of any of them so far.

(See what I did just there? How I got the thread back on topic? :p)

Look, a two-headed monkey!

[Hero1]

phew crisis averted.. now we just need to go and neuralize everyone who was involved.

[numble]

phew crisis averted.. now we just need to go and neuralize everyone who was involved.

I would like a line (maybe about one of Bosco's accent) where Max says something like:

"Sam, do Australians say 'phew'?"



Of course you can substitute "Australian" for some other accent/nationality and 'phew' for some other word...

[Hero1]

we sure do mate! but have you heard new zealanders such as jp say fish and chips (nothin funnier) :D :D

[numble]

we sure do mate! but have you heard new zealanders such as jp say fish and chips (nothin funnier) :D :D

Wait, you mean to say there's a difference between New Zealanders and Australians?




...Runs!

[NickTTG]

hey jake could you please spoiler tag the entirety of this post. except the next word. toilet. thank's jake. don't ever give me admin. cause i'd spoiler tag your face :)

[Maratanos]

Okay, this is getting weird... :eek:

[Udvarnoky]

Plenty of adventure games use a hard and easy mode-Monkey Island 2 and 3, loom...

But can it be pulled off with the schedule Sam & Max has? If the games are monthly releases, it's hard for me to believe that they could suddenly find the time to implement a hard and easy mode for the game. If you look at Monkey 2 and 3, the easy modes weren't just these lazy alterations that simply chopped the game in half. They had some pretty clever workarounds for certain puzzles and even included a new inventory item or two. The point is, making an easy or hard mode would not be a simple matter, and would in a way be like designing two games. There was an interview at the SCUMM Bar (the site is down, unfortunately) with some guy on the Monkey 3 team who said that one of his main jobs was ensuring that the "Regular" mode made sense throughout all the puzzle changing. (EDIT: Hey site's up now! And the interview I was remembering was with Chris Purvis (http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=1011).)

(Loom hardly counts because the difficulty settings simply changed the game's unique interface. The lower the difficulty, the more ornamented the distaff was and the more tone deaf you were allowed to be. It was a pretty superficial change and had no affect on puzzles.)

What you're actually asking for is the reverse of what the Lite and Regular modes on Monkey 1 and 2 were. The "Hard" modes of those games were the regular modes and considered the actual game, whereas the "Easy" modes removed or simplified some of the more difficult puzzles to make the game less intimidating for newcomers (perhaps necessary in an epic game like those, hardly necessary in an intentionally bite-sized one). You have to think that the version of Sam & Max that the team is actually releasing is the version they intend you to play, and the version they think most people will buy, and thus it wouldn't pay for them to make a whole other one that may or may not appease a certain number of people.

[shadow9d9]

But can it be pulled off with the schedule Sam & Max has? If the games are monthly releases, it's hard for me to believe that they could suddenly find the time to implement a hard and easy mode for the game. If you look at Monkey 2 and 3, the easy modes weren't just these lazy alterations that simply chopped the game in half. They had some pretty clever workarounds for certain puzzles and even included a new inventory item or two. The point is, making an easy or hard mode would not be a simple matter, and would in a way be like designing two games. There was an interview at the SCUMM Bar (the site is down, unfortunately) with some guy on the Monkey 3 team who said that one of his main jobs was ensuring that the "Regular" mode made sense throughout all the puzzle changing. (EDIT: Hey site's up now! And the interview I was remembering was with Chris Purvis (http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=1011).)

(Loom hardly counts because the difficulty settings simply changed the game's unique interface. The lower the difficulty, the more ornamented the distaff was and the more tone deaf you were allowed to be. It was a pretty superficial change and had no affect on puzzles.)

What you're actually asking for is the reverse of what the Lite and Regular modes on Monkey 1 and 2 were. The "Hard" modes of those games were the regular modes and considered the actual game, whereas the "Easy" modes removed or simplified some of the more difficult puzzles to make the game less intimidating for newcomers (perhaps necessary in an epic game like those, hardly necessary in an intentionally bite-sized one). You have to think that the version of Sam & Max that the team is actually releasing is the version they intend you to play, and the version they think most people will buy, and thus it wouldn't pay for them to make a whole other one that may or may not appease a certain number of people.

You are right that they don't have the time... I was just responding to his response which said that it encouraged lazy design. I disagreed and gave examples of the games that did it and worked well.

[numble]

You are right that they don't have the time... I was just responding to his response which said that it encouraged lazy design. I disagreed and gave examples of the games that did it and worked well.


Of course, wishful thinking is that teachers and designers aren't all like that, which is true--but I feel that the budget and time constraints of a monthly $6 game would make it more likely for designers to cut around the corners if they are now tasked to come up with what is effectively 2 games in the same time, with the same budget.

I don't see where there is a conflict.

[ShaggE]

hey jake could you please spoiler tag the entirety of this post. except the next word. toilet. thank's jake. don't ever give me admin. cause i'd spoiler tag your face :)


I cannot believe this bull I saw yesterday was involved in a rodeo. CRAZY PIECE OF paper with the word "pants" written on it. I OUGHTA KILL a few system processes, I'm lagging a bit. NEVER IN ALL MY DAYS HAVE I SEEN SUCH A BLATANT DISREGARD FOR priceless antiques. Those guys at the Antiques Roadshow need to be more careful.

What a country! In Soviet Russia, screwdriver SCREW YOU!


:p

[matan]

Wow - with all the spoiler tags in this thread, I'm not even sure if it's a joke or a true spoier :)

I'll have to remember to come back to read this thread after playing the game!

[taumel]

I expectd e4 to arrive on the 7.3.2007 or am i wrong again? :O)

[doom saber]

Episode 4? Huh? There is no episode 4. It's a big lie. We're skipping right to episode 5, a la Leisure Suit Larry.

Also, episode 3 has my favorite ending sequence of any of them so far.

(See what I did just there? How I got the thread back on topic? :p)

Look, a two-headed monkey!

If so, what the hell did I played two weeks ago during the focus group!? :confused: LOL

[Welshy]

If so, what the hell did I played two weeks ago during the focus group!? :confused: LOL

Yes yes, rub it in...but your uppance shall come!!!

[Jake]

I played episode 5 a couple days ago.

[numble]

When are we going to find out about the surprises alluded to in your last blog post?





Yes, I know I've set it up perfectly for a Max-like reply..

[Jake]

... it's a surprise.

[NickTTG]

mmm episode 5... remember when that thing happened? and then it triggered that other thing? (i spoiler tagged this because I know that there are a lot of overly sensitive forum readers out there. and if you clicked on it and your still pissed? HA not my fault! kittens don't open bottles of spoiled milk for a reason!) totally great! i can't wait to play episode 6!

[ReverendTed]

I played episode 5 a couple days ago.Oh yeah, well...well...
I just played Episode 1.
...of the second season.
Yeah! In your face, guy!

[Hero1]

I just played the entire second season and the beginning of the third.. I may have been highly medicated but I enjoyed Sam and Max battling against the giant purple elephant.

[MrSneeze]

I played episode 5 a couple days ago.

That's impossible! A friend of a neighbour of a guy selling hot dogs in the town of my brother's wife's cousin's dog's veterinarian who's acquainted with the gold fish of a flat mate of a cousin of the grocer whose shop I once passed by told me that the Episodes are designed, programmed, created and uploaded on the launch day.

That would also explain the unforeseen delays on said launch days; hm? :cool:

[Jake]

They're up to episode 38 in Japan, though, so 5 is really old news if you're in the know.

[ShaggE]

Episode 38? Where they have to solve the mystery of the lumpy apple sauce in their retirement home? That was indeed a good'n..... but many seasons ago... we had doom saber get samples of Telltale DNA at the playtest, and we made an army of uberdevelopers last week that get 20 episodes done a day. :D

[numble]

They're up to episode 38 in Japan, though, so 5 is really old news if you're in the know.

I think episode 38 was too easy.

[Jake]

Over before it began, really.

[doom saber]

think of life like this: Our lives are ina n endless loop. If this is the case, we have all played Sam and MAx season 1 already

[numble]

think of life like this: Our lives are ina n endless loop. If this is the case, we have all played Sam and MAx season 1 already

Did you just watch the latest episode of Lost?

[doom saber]

Episode 38? Where they have to solve the mystery of the lumpy apple sauce in their retirement home? That was indeed a good'n..... but many seasons ago... we had doom saber get samples of Telltale DNA at the playtest, and we made an army of uberdevelopers last week that get 20 episodes done a day. :D

Mmmmm....DNA....or like my high school Chem teacher used to say, "Dirty Nasty Ass!" LOL

[doom saber]

Did you just watch the latest episode of Lost?

Sorry, I haven't. When I am at Davis aka farm town university, I don't watch T.V.

[numble]

Sorry, I haven't. When I am at Davis aka farm town university, I don't watch T.V.

Ah.. Was just being kind of jokey--the latest episode of Lost actually deals with time loops. I can understand that people in Davis don't watch TV when they have fun and exciting things like "Bovine Bingo" to occupy their time with.

[doom saber]

Been to Davis? Place smells like cow dung. In my development psy class, we had to go to a hog barn and observe pigletts.

[numble]

Been to Davis? Place smells like cow dung. In my development psy class, we had to go to a hog barn and observe pigletts.

Actually was over there 6-7 years ago--stayed in a town called Vacaville, which I believe translates to "Cowtown."

Bringing it back to a quasi-on-topic level, how far away is Davis from Telltale?

[doom saber]

I think 30-40 minutes. However, I visited telltale for their focus group from Alameda, which is next to Oakland.

[Hero1]

My real name is Dr Sam Beckett I jump back in time to make Telltales games harder..

[numble]

My real name is Dr Sam Beckett I jump back in time to make Telltales games harder..

You messed up! That's why Hit the Road is so hard...

[doom saber]

Don't forget that because of Hero1's trip through time, he also changed the roles of Sam and Max; Max is suppose to be the calm private eye who's favorite catch line is "You crack me up, big buddy" while Sam and is the psycopath who likes cheese.