I'm sorry Telltale, but you've failed (kind of)

[mill]

First off, thanks Telltale for waking Sam and Max up again.

You have many fans who will just buy the game automatically because it's Sam and Max. I am one of those. But you are killing us. I'm pretty sure the fanbase will be cut in half since the advent of the new Sam and Max game. Why? Read on.

I've bought the whole season, and played through ep one, two and today three as well. Episode one and two took about three hours for me to finish, and episode three about one hour and a half. The first two were kind of annoying (the kids you know), so even though the last one was the easiest and shortest episode, it was the one I liked the best.

It seems like everyone are complaining about it being too easy and too short. So do I. You (Telltale) said that you didn't want to scare off new adventurers by making the first one too hard. That's a good idea. Normally games are easier in the beginning and harder later on. Not in this case though, atleast not so far.

So why is it too easy? One thing is that is in 3D, and the game is not nearly as detailed as the old 2D counterpart (which I like). Add that you can't combine objects, and that all objects are used throughout the game. The number of "rooms" are way too few as well (yes, even if you combine ep 1+2+3).

I (and the majority of the other buyers) wish that you guys make Sam and Max 3 not in episode style, harder, with more Max, more detailed, and preferably in 2D as well. And a better story, the ones so far are too bad, and too childish. The target audience for this game is around 10 year old kids, and I'm betting the ones who have bought this game are 25+ in average.

[Yohmi]

Waw, you know, you can also answer to other threads, it has already been discussed so much times... we are at the half of the season, the game is very cheap, and is getting better and better episode to episode. It apprently getting harder with next releases. Also, everybody wants a compelte game, but TTG is NOT LucasArts, they need money to start, and you know, Freelance Police was a very very expansive project.
By the way, I'm 19, and I also think that 10 years old can't really understand the insane humour of the game. As I played first Sam&Max when I was ten, and just really understand jokes when I replayed it.

The number of room is too few as well ? but you just combine the first half of a project ! We all want more, and more, and more, but you know what, sam&max is the greatest adventure game I played since Grim Fandango. Name something better recently, and okay, you'll be able to tell they failed. But you know what ? you don't fail until the run's over. And we are on the first half.

About the story... yes, it's childish to enter a toy mafia, as it's childish to want to become a pirate or navigate through time by toilets. And that's probably what makes things accessible to everybody, because we are all childs. You know why Nintendo Wii is working ? because child plays, teenagers plays, men and women plays, third age plays. No need to be dark, bloody, philosophical or something... of course grim fandango is mor "adult" but the first sam&max was as childish as this one.

[mill]

yeah sorry for starting a new thread :/

Funny doesn't mean it has to be "childish". I don't consider the old sam and max to be childish, nor any of the monkey island games, nor grim fandango etc. I like a more edgy humour -- thats all.

Some new (good) adventure games are Runaway, Runaway 2 and Fahrenheit (I think it was called).

[Mother Superior]

The target audience for this game is around 10 year old kids, and I'm betting the ones who have bought this game are 25+ in average.

Might I point out, that when Hit the road came out you were 13. If that game was intended for 13-year olds, what is wrong with these games being intended for 10-year olds? Not that I think they are, I disagree with your point that they are too childish, I am 18 and derive great pleasure from them, and even though I agree the games are a tad easy, I am always terrible at adventure games that most gamers like yourself wold refer to as classic, such as Grim Fandango, Monkey Island etc. (indeed I played through most of Grim Fandango with a walkthrough, and it's still my all-time favourite game). Fahrenheit was good, but story went awry towards the end btw.

Wanting the game to be in 2d is ridiculous. The third dimension is the hip place these days, it's where the action is and the graphical aspect of the new episodes have been fantastic so far.

I will agree with you that the games could be longer and feature more diversity (I'd much rather see more diversity than just tack on stupid puzzles just to increase the lenght of the game), but Yohmi said it best; Telltale games has revived a beloved game franchise that was dead for so long. But they went from what I can imagine is one of the most well-budgeted game developers ever (Lucasarts) to a recent developer who love the games they make. Give them some bloody time.

More Max: Yes. I agree, more Max please.

Not in episodic format: You are wrong. Telltale games have proven episodic format works. We've gotten three games in as many months. That's much better than one game every year in my opinion.

[mill]

Might I point out, that when Hit the road came out you were 13.

I played it a little later, when I was about 15 or 16.

If that game was intended for 13-year olds, what is wrong with these games being intended for 10-year olds?

Well the wrong part would be that older people won't enjoy it, me included.

Wanting the game to be in 2d is ridiculous. The third dimension is the hip place these days, it's where the action is and the graphical aspect of the new episodes have been fantastic so far.

I still think the new 2D adventure games are pretty cool, but yes, it might be that new (e.g. young) gamers expect all games to be in 3D.

[xChri5x]

Telltale failed? Oh dear... We should tell somebody

[Mother Superior]

I played it a little later, when I was about 15 or 16.

Damn, you've circumvented my brilliant logic. Well done, old sport.

Well the wrong part would be that older people won't enjoy it, me included.
Well if the game weren't intended for you, then it wasn't intended for you. At this point I would like to again point out that I think you are wrong and that there is humour sophisticated enough to entertain a more mature audience, whilst at the same time offering simpler, what you call childish, humour. In my view, this offers a well-rounded area of comedy.

I still think the new 2D adventure games are pretty cool, but yes, it might be that new (e.g. young) gamers expect all games to be in 3D.
Yes it's true that 3D is the expected standard today, and 2D may indeed scare off a good portion of their inteded audience, but I think Telltale did an excellent job in representing the world in a cartoony, charming way, so why complain?

[mill]

Telltale failed? Oh dear... We should tell somebody

To me they failed in creating a game on par with the old one, but that's my opinion and everybyde don't share it, of course.

They succeded in making it good looking but to me it as funny as the old one, it is not very replayable after one has finished it, the story is not as interesting as the old one etc. The problem is that it's hard not to compare it to the old one, and the old one being one of the greatest adventure games in history makes it difficult to beat, but still, we all expect the sequel to be better, but they rarely are.

[mill]

Damn, you've circumvented my brilliant logic. Well done, old sport.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be a smartass :)

[snip] so why complain?

Too high expectations, I guess! I hope the series gets better in the next installment.

[Mother Superior]

Too high expectations, I guess! I hope the series gets better in the next installment.

Well, I shall admit that had I fallen as in love with Hit the road (ie, had I played it before 2006) as I presume you have I would most likely feel very differentely about this. It's always hard to manage your feelings for games/movies/tv shows you love when they get remade/revived. It's a sort of disease. I propose this syndrom needs a name, and I suggest that we call it "Battlestar Galactica-syndrome"

EDIT* Oh, now this is interesting, a fellow Swede it is I have been arguing with!

[mill]

:)

Well, on the other side, browsing the forum tells the same story -- many complaining about the same stuff; the story, the level of difficulty and lthe ack of edgier humour.

[Mother Superior]

:)

Well, on the other side, browsing the forum tells the same story -- many complaining about the same stuff; the story, the level of difficulty and lthe ack of edgier humour.

Will you stop using logic and popular opinion against me?! It's very annoying!

[mill]

Will you stop using logic and popular opinion against me?! It's very annoying!

Yes.. soon.

[Mother Superior]

Yes.. soon.

:(

I admit the games have some kinks to work out story and style-wise, but we're only just getting out of the pilot episodes! Give them some time, they'll give Max more to do, make the games a slight longer and more varied (not have Sybil and Bosco play exactly the same roles every single time around for example).

[mill]

:(

I admit the games have some kinks to work out story and style-wise, but we're only just getting out of the pilot episodes! Give them some time, they'll give Max more to do, make the games a slight longer and more varied (not have Sybil and Bosco play exactly the same roles every single time around for example).

Well, that was what I was hoping for. Emily said after the first episode that

a) the first episode is easy so that it is appealing for new gamers
b) that it would get harder in ep two and three.

Unfortunately, to me it's been the other way around, hence me not complaining until now :/

[Maratanos]

I (and the majority of the other buyers)

Sorry. Minor pet peeve of mine...

Only those who are grossly ignorant claim they speak for others, because they are not.

[jp-30]

Well, on the other side, browsing the forum tells the same story -- many complaining about the same stuff; the story, the level of difficulty and lthe ack of edgier humour.

And how many people who have played the games are not complaining about the story, the level of difficulty and the lack of edgier humour?

[Kunkku-Antti]

Waw, you know, you can also answer to other threads, it has already been discussed so much times... we are at the half of the season, the game is very cheap, and is getting better and better episode to episode. It apprently getting harder with next releases. Also, everybody wants a compelte game, but TTG is NOT LucasArts, they need money to start, and you know, Freelance Police was a very very expansive project.
By the way, I'm 19, and I also think that 10 years old can't really understand the insane humour of the game. As I played first Sam&Max when I was ten, and just really understand jokes when I replayed it.

The number of room is too few as well ? but you just combine the first half of a project ! We all want more, and more, and more, but you know what, sam&max is the greatest adventure game I played since Grim Fandango. Name something better recently, and okay, you'll be able to tell they failed. But you know what ? you don't fail until the run's over. And we are on the first half.

About the story... yes, it's childish to enter a toy mafia, as it's childish to want to become a pirate or navigate through time by toilets. And that's probably what makes things accessible to everybody, because we are all childs. You know why Nintendo Wii is working ? because child plays, teenagers plays, men and women plays, third age plays. No need to be dark, bloody, philosophical or something... of course grim fandango is mor "adult" but the first sam&max was as childish as this one.

I feel like you didn´t quite understand what he was saying.

[shadow9d9]

I actually warned in my other thread that people who preordered who are now realizing that they are not getting what they thought they were paying for will not invest in future products.

[shadow9d9]

I feel like you didn´t quite understand what he was saying.

Most of the rabid fan responses to my thread weren't good at comprehension either. They want so much to respond with defense to what that like that they ignore context/comprehension skills.

When I love things, I criticize them more strongly because I care about them more. I don't blindly defend them against valid complaints.

[Kunkku-Antti]

I actually warned in my other thread that people who preordered who are now realizing that they are not getting what they thought they were paying for will not invest in future products.

That´s true, at least in my case. I haven´t even downloaded ep3 yet, I kinda have lost my interest. Yeah, I have had plenty of spare time so it´s not like I don´t have time to play. I am just not excited. Why? Because I feel disappointed.

[Jake]

Most of the rabid fan responses to my thread weren't good at comprehension either. They want so much to respond with defense to what that like that they ignore context/comprehension skills.

When I love things, I criticize them more strongly because I care about them more. I don't blindly defend them against valid complaints.

Hey let's not just kick around other users. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Don't make it personal (and yes it is personal when you're referring to a specific four or five people who replied to your last thread).

[Maratanos]

That´s true, at least in my case. I haven´t even downloaded ep3 yet, I kinda have lost my interest. Yeah, I have had plenty of spare time so it´s not like I don´t have time to play. I am just not excited. Why? Because I feel disappointed.

So why are you sticking around annoying people who do like it?

I mean, if you've truly lost interest, then I'd think you'd leave. But it seems more to me like you're developing anti-interest... ;)

[Yohmi]

Feel free to think what you want. But please be polite.
Wasn't it a complain about difficulty ? About lenght ? About episodic game ? about the "total number of rooms" combined of the first half of a season comparing to an entire game ? About the "childish" story ?
Well, if it wasn't, I'm sorry, I didn't understood. And if it was, I feel like you didn't quite understand what I was saying (probably because I'm not good at all in english, I'm aware of it and I'm sorry).

[jp-30]

They want so much to respond with defense to what that like that they ignore context/comprehension skills.

Classic...

[Kunkku-Antti]

Because I paid for the whole frigging season and i want something to play! I don´t want a freaking cartoon that anybody can click and maybe if I express my opinion publicly I might at least get one real puzzle during this season! It´s not that I don´t care about Sam & Max, the easiness just killed my excitement.

But guess if I am going to preorder season 2? No, I won´t.

[Kunkku-Antti]

Feel free to think what you want. But please be polite.
Wasn't it a complain about difficulty ? About lenght ? About episodic game ? about the "total number of rooms" combined of the first half of a season comparing to an entire game ? About the "childish" story ?
Well, if it wasn't, I'm sorry, I didn't understood. And if it was, I feel like you didn't quite understand what I was saying (probably because I'm not good at all in english, I'm aware of it and I'm sorry).

Well, I was kind of like asking you to actually read what he said, then think about it a little and then respond. I was not trying to be impolite. I wasn´t claiming that you couldn´t understand or anything. I was just trying to say that maybe you didn´t get the point if his post. Perhaps you were too eager to defend the game and that´s why you didn´t quite get it.I don´t know.

[ShaggE]

Most of the rabid fan responses to my thread weren't good at comprehension either. They want so much to respond with defense to what that like that they ignore context/comprehension skills.

When I love things, I criticize them more strongly because I care about them more. I don't blindly defend them against valid complaints.

Again with the comprehension thing? Does it really bother you that much that there are people who enjoy the games and have few things to say against them?

I'm also a so-called "rabid fan" of Half Life 2, but when I noticed the brain-dead AI, I criticized it. Strongly. On the other hand, I find little to criticize in Sam & Max, as I fully enjoy it. I see no reason why I and other like-minded forum members should be on the recieving end of a constant barrage of thinly veiled insults because of it. That's what Counter Strike servers are for: Endlessly insulting the intelligence of others. Might I suggest you purchase a copy? Your ability to act like any response to your posts is the work of a raving inbred moron will fit right in there.

[Maratanos]

Again with the comprehension thing? Does it really bother you that much that there are people who enjoy the games and have few things to say against them?

I'm also a so-called "rabid fan" of Half Life 2, but when I noticed the brain-dead AI, I criticized it. Strongly. On the other hand, I find little to criticize in Sam & Max, as I fully enjoy it. I see no reason why I and other like-minded forum members should be on the recieving end of a constant barrage of thinly veiled insults because of it. That's what Counter Strike servers are for: Endlessly insulting the intelligence of others. Might I suggest you purchase a copy? Your ability to act like any response to your posts is the work of a raving inbred moron will fit right in there.

Shame we don't have an ignore function... You may be right. We may have a troll brewing.

[Yohmi]

Well, I was kind of like asking you to actually read what he said, then think about it a little and then respond. I was not trying to be impolite. I wasn´t claiming that you couldn´t understand or anything. I was just trying to say that maybe you didn´t get the point if his post. Perhaps you were too eager to defend the game and that´s why you didn´t quite get it.I don´t know.

I read again his thread and my answer and I don't see where it goes wrong... things that he's pointing have already been discussed so much times here, in so many threads... about all the things I listed before. Only the "childish" part was new. And I may have not understand it well (because we have in France two terms near childish but I can't know wich one is right, I surely take the bad one). I don't have any stocks in TellTale so I just express what I feel, what I read here and there ;) and all these complains, all these new threds every two days to say exactly the same thing with other words can make me a bit too eager... so I won't again on these subjects. In fact, almost everything has been told in other threads... answer to these is perhaps unuseful.
And if you have read other post through the forum, you know that I don't find Season 1 perfect and complained also about lot of things. But I do like so much things in this game, and I do understand also why some things are how they are and can't be really changed. Because I read lots here, lots.

[tabacco]

Shame we don't have an ignore function... You may be right. We may have a troll brewing.

As a matter of fact, we do have an ignore function:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/profile.php?do=editlist

[numble]

Shame we don't have an ignore function... You may be right. We may have a troll brewing.

Personally, I find it very funny, in that unintentional The Office sort of way: "You fail at comprehension and context! You misunderstood what I said! English must not be your native language! You should understand that 90% means majority!"

[ShaggE]

I'm not much for ignore buttons on forums, seems like it would throw an entire thread off-kilter if people reply to the ignored user and you can't see what their replying to. Good to know though, in case we get a straight-out spammer.

[Maratanos]

It still shows that the posts exist... You'd know that something had been said... It just means you don't have to see it if you don't want to.

[ShaggE]

Oh, I see now. I figured it worked something like a chatroom block does.

[Kunkku-Antti]

Personally, I find it very funny, in that unintentional The Office sort of way: "You fail at comprehension and context! You misunderstood what I said! English must not be your native language! You should understand that 90% means majority!"

Are you referring to me and the discussion about the reviews?


Isn´t 90 % a majority?

[shadow9d9]

So why are you sticking around annoying people who do like it?

I mean, if you've truly lost interest, then I'd think you'd leave. But it seems more to me like you're developing anti-interest... ;)

People keep repeating this although its been answered about a dozen times.. multiple times in this thread alone.

Criticism leads to change for the better. Sales and player reactions are critical to further success of these games.

[numble]

Are you referring to me and the discussion about the reviews?


Isn´t 90 % a majority?

I'm referring to Maratanos, who was referring to ShaggE, who was referring to shadow9d9.

90% is a majority, but it doesn't mean majority in the 51% sense--you'd have to refer to the prior thread to understand the context of what I mean--shadow9d9 kept saying that "90%+ of reviews say XYZ," I questioned that, and he basically said "90% means majority."

[shadow9d9]

Because I paid for the whole frigging season and i want something to play! I don´t want a freaking cartoon that anybody can click and maybe if I express my opinion publicly I might at least get one real puzzle during this season! It´s not that I don´t care about Sam & Max, the easiness just killed my excitement.

But guess if I am going to preorder season 2? No, I won´t.

Well said. Exactly what I thought would happen too. But as you said, best to learn for the future. The only company I'd buy a product with upfront would be bioware because of its flawless record in my eyes. Some authors too. Never a new company.

[shadow9d9]

I'm referring to Maratanos, who was referring to ShaggE, who was referring to shadow9d9.

90% is a majority, but it doesn't mean majority in the 51% sense--you'd have to refer to the prior thread to understand the context of what I mean--shadow9d9 kept saying that "90%+ of reviews say XYZ," I questioned that, and he basically said "90% means majority."

I hope Jake is going to warn this guy not to bring up the other thread(be personal) like he did with me.

I was warned for making things "personal". Do the same for these guys. Matanos or whatever was calling me a troll, threatening an ignore function(which is passive aggressive)-all because he disagrees with me.

Enforce the rules all round... lest we see favoritism.

[numble]

I hope Jake is going to warn this guy not to bring up the other thread like he did with me.

I think you misconstrued what Jake said--he warned you not to kick around other users from the other thread who had not yet even said anything in this thread. Nothing against reference to other posts--in fact, Jake's closing comment on the previous thread was that he was closing it because he wanted people to refer to it in other threads instead of that one.

EDIT:
--Ah, I see you've updated your post--
If my comments were taken to be personal attacks, I apologize. Most of the time I've only restated the things you have said in the past--never implied that you lack comprehension, context, quality, education or English abilities. I admittedly have said that it all appears unintentionally funny in context of everything said, but it's just my opinion/observation.

[Jake]

I am going to warn everyone that these arguments are definitely becoming circular and insular.

Everyone who reads either this thread or the one which I closed earlier is now well aware of the issues raised, and where each individual participant stands on those issues. All that remains now, though, is the same circle of people trying to convince each other to listen to each other. I don't much see the point in that, as nobody in this thread who already hasn't "listened to reason" or whatever the problem is, on either side of the current debate, is going to suddenly do an about face with their emotions or opinions on the subject.

That said, Shadow and the rest, what you're saying doesn't fall on deaf ears (this is, after all, a forum run, maintained and read by Telltale Games), and please also rest assured that Telltale does in fact keep a close eye on sales numbers, sales trends, and what people across the Internet and press are writing and saying about our games. :) We're all about the Internet, and we're well aware that the Internet is a two-way medium.

[shadow9d9]

I am going to warn everyone that these arguments are definitely becoming circular and insular.

Everyone who reads either this thread or the one which I closed earlier is now well aware of the issues raised, and where each individual participant stands on those issues. All that remains now, though, is the same circle of people trying to convince each other to listen to each other. I don't much see the point in that, as nobody in this thread who already hasn't "listened to reason" or whatever the problem is, on either side of the current debate, is going to suddenly do an about face with their emotions or opinions on the subject.

That said, Shadow and the rest, what you're saying doesn't fall on deaf ears (this is, after all, a forum run and maintained by Telltale Games), and please also rest assured that Telltale does in fact keep a close eye on sales numbers, sales trends, and what people across the Internet and press are writing and saying about our games. :) We're all about the Internet, and we're well aware that the Internet is a two-way medium.

Thanks : ).

[mill]

Yup, i haven't really understood why people "defend" companies' products, well unless they're getting paid.

(The same goes for Playstation 3 (which has soooo many flaws) just because it's a Playstation and iTunes/iPod/iPhone just because it comes from Apple!)

[mill]

And how many people who have played the games are not complaining about the story, the level of difficulty and the lack of edgier humour?

That's usually the thing -- it's way easier to complain than to praise something, and the complainers are always more noticed. People love to complain.

[numble]

Yup, i haven't really understood why people "defend" companies' products, well unless they're getting paid.

(The same goes for Playstation 3 (which has soooo many flaws) just because it's a Playstation and iTunes/iPod/iPhone just because it comes from Apple!)

This is slightly off-topic, but I think it goes both ways--places like Joystiq, Kotaku, Gizmodo, Engadget and their ilk are filled with people spouting criticisms/defenses both ways. There are probably equal amounts of people that believe anything Sony does is bad, anything Microsoft or Nintendo (choose your fandom) does is good, and vice versa. And there are plenty of people who like to spout on about "Micro $oft" and why Apple is better--and vice versa. And throw in the unwillingness to acknowledge the valid points of the other side--of course--which stirs things even more.

[matan]

Most of the rabid fan responses to my thread weren't good at comprehension either. They want so much to respond with defense to what that like that they ignore context/comprehension skills.

When I love things, I criticize them more strongly because I care about them more. I don't blindly defend them against valid complaints.

Hey shadow. I don't want to continue the fruitless discussion here on the forum, so I've sent you a private message regarding this.
(I'm saying it here because I assume otherwise you probably won't notice)

[dunkpork]

Why would a person defend a product? Same reason a person defends a nation.

It provides something they like that they can't get elsewhere. It is the only one of its kind, and they like it. It touched them in some way. It's what they're used to. It's the best of all available options. Etc.

A person may also feel that if they don't "defend" a product they like from virulent criticism, it may one day turn out that the virulent criticism will sway consumers to the criticizer's viewpoint. Therefore they want to give a counter view to the critic.

There's some snappy quote about good men being silent, or doing nothing, when evil rears its head, or some such nonsense. It sort of applies to this situation, though not so dramatically.

We are consumers. We depend on companies for entertainment. We invest thought, emotion, and time into our purchases. The old joke that women make shopping a way of life has a bit of truth, in the amount of emotion behind money, and the stress of deciding how to spend that money.

The video game world is littered with great games that never got a sequel because the masses weren't hipped to them, franchises that were crushed by sequilitis and opinion, companies that couldn't overcome a history of bad releases, of sleeper titles that became cult classics, of small titles that by word of mouth grew into mega franchises.

Now the internet has given fans a voice into the process, a way to transmit their gaming desires straight to the companies and to other fans.

It is, to me, perfectly obvious why a person would "defend" a product.

What mystifies me is how someone couldn't understand that ;)

[TiLT]

I (and the majority of the other buyers) wish that (snip!)

This is one of the most arrogant things I've seen written on the Internet in the last few months, and I've seen a lot. Good job, sir!

[mill]

This is one of the most arrogant things I've seen written on the Internet in the last few months, and I've seen a lot. Good job, sir!

Oh, sorry, didn't intend to.

[lerenwe]

Hi there!

Sorry if I did horrible orthographic english errors, but I'm actually french and I'm only 15, so...^^

Well, I wanted to tell you some things about what did Mill says and my opinion about the sam and max season 1 episodes:

-I agree with you about the difficulty of the game! It's really really too easy! Why do you guys at telltale just increase a little bit the difficulty of the game in each episodes? I mean episode 1: Very easy; episode 2: Easy; episode 3: A bit harder, etc etc...? The gameplay is not perfect too, I've found the solution of some puzzles by chance! Just because I can click on this or this object and not on that thingy! I suggest that some trap-object must be added sometimes, no? And as evryone said: why not a combine-object system, huh?

-The graphics are perfect for now, and the animation of the character is getting better, keep the good work :) The cut-scene are really well-animated!

-The humor is GOOD! Don't change it! Mr. Purcell and the other dids a good work! No really, enter a toy mafia... That was so funny :D

So, I've paid 40 USD for the complete season (with tax^^), and I hope that you guys at telltale will improve and improve the game for the next seasons with the money you've earned! Listen to all our suggestions, and it would be great! Anyway, thanks for having made live again sam and max in video games! Keep improving your games, they are nice!;)

EDIT: Sorry if I've don't read the entire topic, but I think I've read the most important parts

[ShaggE]

I am going to warn everyone that these arguments are definitely becoming circular and insular.

Much agreed. I won't feed in to the flames anymore. We should all move on, we're here to talk gaming, not argue about reading comprehension. I say we all settle our differences with a dance-off and an Irish jig.

[Maratanos]

That's usually the thing -- it's way easier to complain than to praise something, and the complainers are always more noticed. People love to complain.

This is a very insightful post. I think that is indeed something to consider. You may see lots of people complaining about the game, but odds are, Telltale knows exactly what percentage of the people that bought it that is, and it's probably pretty low. Of course, since I don't work for Telltale, I could be totally wrong, too.

[Wickywoo]

It's a sort of disease. I propose this syndrom needs a name, and I suggest that we call it "Battlestar Galactica-syndrome"

Wrong comparison

Neo-BSG is made by people who hate and despise the original, and are more concerned about having sex and nudity in Sci-Fi than in satisfying the fanbase of the real BSG. They specifically go out of their way to get things wrong, and change things just for the sake of changing them (ex- they have the Rising Star,but they have Cloud 9 take the Rising Star's role in the show. Why? So they can give the finger to the real fans, there can be no other purpose in making such a change. ex2- Adama was the man of faith, and Col Tigh was the skeptic. He was the one who kept Adama grounded in reality, he's not a drunk and a waste of space.). The new show has no involvement from Glen Larson, other than the fact that hey send him a check (apparently it was a "we're doing whatever we want, you can take or leave a check, but we're still going to wreck your show"). The new show is in many ways a direct affront to what the original stood for. Sure, it was cheesy,but there was a magnificent show there at the heart, that very easily could have been revived a-la Doctor Who, with full respect and a continuation of the past, just massaged into something acceptible to the modern audience, something that fans old and new can embrace and love. Instead they raped the people like me who fought for 25 years to get our show back with a cactus with a bad remake of Space Above and Beyond shoehorned into the barest outline of BSG. They couldn't even keep the someone unique origins of the Cylon War, they had to go the SAAB/Terminator route.

See a realBSG revival that was so close to happening they were building the sets, that respected the original and had Glen Larson's cooperation,and the support of almost all the original cast. Make sure to check out all thesections for lots of pictures of the cylons, the vipers and the bridge.

http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg-desanto-01.html

Larson owns the movie rights, and DeSanto is currently trying to find the financing to realize it as a movie. The only real benefit of the cancellation of BSG-DeSanto was that the money was then shifted over to create Firefly, another show that was cancelled unfairly (BSG was a top 10 show, but ABC had a bad habit of cancelling shows if they thought another one might squeeze a couple extra bucks)) and will probably be ruined by some other hack down the line who lacks the perfection of our lord and savior of quality filmed entertainment.

Sam and Max are made by people who love and respect the original, and with the full involvement from the creator, Steve Purcell, who as the creator is the only person who can approve alterations to his creation. Steve is happy, The original game and the comic books do appear to have happened, as much as legally allowable in these new games. I agree, I totally miss the longer narrative and edgier humor, but let them get their feet wet and re-establish the franchise. The games are by no means perfect, but I find them acceptible. They need to be at least 3 hours in length, and a good 3 hours. I do agreee that I am not happy with the shorter and shorter playtimes.

Perhaps a way to expand playtime without blowing the budget is to give some side quests at pre-existing locations?

[shadow9d9]

Wrong comparison

Neo-BSG is made by people who hate and despise the original, and are more concerned about having sex and nudity in Sci-Fi than in satisfying the fanbase of the real BSG. They specifically go out of their way to get things wrong, and change things just for the sake of changing them (ex- they have the Rising Star,but they have Cloud 9 take the Rising Star's role in the show. Why? So they can give the finger to the real fans, there can be no other purpose in making such a change. ex2- Adama was the man of faith, and Col Tigh was the skeptic. He was the one who kept Adama grounded in reality, he's not a drunk and a waste of space.). The new show has no involvement from Glen Larson, other than the fact that hey send him a check (apparently it was a "we're doing whatever we want, you can take or leave a check, but we're still going to wreck your show"). The new show is in many ways a direct affront to what the original stood for. Sure, it was cheesy,but there was a magnificent show there at the heart, that very easily could have been revived a-la Doctor Who, with full respect and a continuation of the past, just massaged into something acceptible to the modern audience, something that fans old and new can embrace and love. Instead they raped the people like me who fought for 25 years to get our show back with a cactus with a bad remake of Space Above and Beyond shoehorned into the barest outline of BSG. They couldn't even keep the someone unique origins of the Cylon War, they had to go the SAAB/Terminator route.

See a realBSG revival that was so close to happening they were building the sets, that respected the original and had Glen Larson's cooperation,and the support of almost all the original cast. Make sure to check out all thesections for lots of pictures of the cylons, the vipers and the bridge.

http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg-desanto-01.html

Larson owns the movie rights, and DeSanto is currently trying to find the financing to realize it as a movie. The only real benefit of the cancellation of BSG-DeSanto was that the money was then shifted over to create Firefly, another show that was cancelled unfairly (BSG was a top 10 show, but ABC had a bad habit of cancelling shows if they thought another one might squeeze a couple extra bucks)) and will probably be ruined by some other hack down the line who lacks the perfection of our lord and savior of quality filmed entertainment.

Sam and Max are made by people who love and respect the original, and with the full involvement from the creator, Steve Purcell, who as the creator is the only person who can approve alterations to his creation. Steve is happy, The original game and the comic books do appear to have happened, as much as legally allowable in these new games. I agree, I totally miss the longer narrative and edgier humor, but let them get their feet wet and re-establish the franchise. The games are by no means perfect, but I find them acceptible. They need to be at least 3 hours in length, and a good 3 hours. I do agreee that I am not happy with the shorter and shorter playtimes.

Perhaps a way to expand playtime without blowing the budget is to give some side quests at pre-existing locations?

That would be great if the new BSG wasn;t the best and most intelligent show on tv right now... You probably thought the original star trek was better than TNG too right? You sound bitter :) .

[Wickywoo]

That would be great if the new BSG wasn;t the best and most intelligent show on tv right now... You probably thought the original star trek was better than TNG too right? You sound bitter

It's not though. They're running around in circles because they have absolutely no clue where they're going with it, even a lot of fans admit that and by the ratings, they're starting to bail. Wouldn't it be so much better if you could have your cake and eat it to? That it was a show that actually followed its namesake instead of Ron Moore's project grafted onto an available franchise? He loves the idea of the Exodus, but he has no idea what to do with it once he gets beyond the Ten Commandments. Moore's a good writer, as long as he's under someone else to control him as he proved on DS9, but it's obvious from Ira Behr's work afterwards that it was his careful guiding hand that made that show great, and the truely ignored more intelligent series of the last decade (or as TV Guide finally called it "the greatest show nobody watched)

And yes, in many ways the original Trek WAS better than TNG. The characters were more dynamic and felt more like real people, and much less preachy. They tried to have the story communicate the ideas instead of having Picard lecture them. Both shows are products of their time It certainly had a magnificent writing staff too, with many great SF writers contributing stories and scripts like Ted Sturgeon, Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold etc. but TNG was once again made with the FULL cooperation, endorsement, and even the same creator, Gene Roddenberry. It both continued and respected the original instead of doing gross alteration.

Both shows are products of their time, but they still respect the original, and respect the fans that enabled them to come back. Had they done the same thing to Trek that they did to BSG, there would have been lynch mobs. Pitchforks, torches, the works. It's the equiv of a teetotaling Scotty, a wild and crazy Spock, and a Kirk who's a manhating lesbian stereotype.

[shadow9d9]

It's not though. They're running around in circles because they have absolutely no clue where they're going with it, even a lot of fans admit that and by the ratings, they're starting to bail. Wouldn't it be so much better if you could have your cake and eat it to? That it was a show that actually followed its namesake instead of Ron Moore's project grafted onto an available franchise? He loves the idea of the Exodus, but he has no idea what to do with it once he gets beyond the Ten Commandments. Moore's a good writer, as long as he's under someone else to control him as he proved on DS9, but it's obvious from Ira Behr's work afterwards that it was his careful guiding hand that made that show great, and the truely ignored more intelligent series of the last decade (or as TV Guide finally called it "the greatest show nobody watched)

And yes, in many ways the original Trek WAS better than TNG. The characters were more dynamic and felt more like real people, and much less preachy. They tried to have the story communicate the ideas instead of having Picard lecture them. Both shows are products of their time It certainly had a magnificent writing staff too, with many great SF writers contributing stories and scripts like Ted Sturgeon, Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold etc. but TNG was once again made with the FULL cooperation, endorsement, and even the same creator, Gene Roddenberry. It both continued and respected the original instead of doing gross alteration.

Both shows are products of their time, but they still respect the original, and respect the fans that enabled them to come back. Had they done the same thing to Trek that they did to BSG, there would have been lynch mobs. Pitchforks, torches, the works. It's the equiv of a teetotaling Scotty, a wild and crazy Spock, and a Kirk who's a manhating lesbian stereotype.

The original Trek was awful, from terrible acting to terrible scripts. TNG and DS9 were 1000s of lightyears better. Same with the new bsg. Sorry you don't like it. Many people cling to the past. If you don't like the new bsg, don't watch it. For the rest of us, it is the most intelligent show on tv with a definite direction. Moore is a brilliant writer. He has been since TNG and his 20+ brilliant DS9 episodes. He has brought a staff of amazing writers including bradley thompson and david weddle(also from ds9).. the show has some amazing actors. It has got everything. Couldn't ask for more.

[Mother Superior]

The original Trek was awful, from terrible acting to terrible scripts. TNG and DS9 were 1000s of lightyears better. Same with the new bsg. Sorry you don't like it. Many people cling to the past. If you don't like the new bsg, don't watch it. For the rest of us, it is the most intelligent show on tv with a definite direction. Moore is a brilliant writer. He has been since TNG and his 20+ brilliant DS9 episodes. He has brought a staff of amazing writers including bradley thompson and david weddle(also from ds9).. the show has some amazing actors. It has got everything. Couldn't ask for more.

I agree completely. People always love things from their childhood, it's human nature. Though it's true there's a big difference between the Sam & Max revival and the BSG revival, BSG was more of a re-envisioning to be honest. And it's brilliant also. Apart from the cheesy love drama of season 3. Moore needs to stop doin' that teenage-angst type romance.

[dunkpork]

Hey, I think the original Trek is amazingly great. I still watch it today, given the chance. Shatner's acting in the series is very enjoyable, dare I say "good", as are most of the other actors. The stories are so whacky they're fun. The set designs are inspired. Etc.

And it is NOT from my childhood. I didn't see the original Trek until after TNG.

Automatically crediting someone's enjoyment of something to an inherent bias is not thoughtful to that other person.

[Mother Superior]

Hey, I think the original Trek is amazingly great. I still watch it today, given the chance. Shatner's acting in the series is very enjoyable, dare I say "good", as are most of the other actors. The stories are so whacky they're fun. The set designs are inspired. Etc.

And it is NOT from my childhood. I didn't see the original Trek until after TNG.

Automatically crediting someone's enjoyment of something to an inherent bias is not thoughtful to that other person.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy TOS or the original BSG now as an adult, I'm just saying that if you watched a show as a young child, you'll mostly likely remember it slightly more fantastic than it really was. I still love TOS, as much as I love TNG and DS9, I only watched the original BSG after I saw the new one and thought it was crap. I only played Hit the Road after I played culture shock and thought it was great! (despite the fact that I never finished it)

[Sir Lemming]

Shadow9d9, there was plenty of criticism of the games on this forum before you came along. A lot of people have been criticizing the games' length, easiness, and most of the other stuff you talked about. The main difference is that it's usually been more optimistic, whereas your criticism was more pessimistic. And that's fair, because if you honestly don't think the games are worth playing because of these flaws, that's your call to make. But just because some people think the games are still worth playing (as I do, since they're just so well-written), don't call them sheep or whatever it is that you said. The hostility isn't necessary; it rarely is.

Additionally, I've found that people generally don't respond well to someone whose first message board thread is an argument. Whether it's fair or not, it's just the way people tend to work. It's all too easy to be angry at the outsider.


Finally, yes, the old Star Trek pales in comparison to TNG, DS9, and probably Enterprise. Whatever good qualities it had were more than made up for by the cheesiness of 75% of its episodes.
Voyager... well, I'll leave that alone.

P.S. Star Trek, like religion and politics, is a source of never-ending debate on the internet, and even the most scholarly minds have not been able to find the true answers to these questions. Let us not expect to.

[Maratanos]

Look, let's drop the sci-fi, please. It's WAY off-topic. Maybe start a thread in General Discussion if you want.

[Oilers99]

The number of room is too few as well ? but you just combine the first half of a project ! We all want more, and more, and more, but you know what, sam&max is the greatest adventure game I played since Grim Fandango. Name something better recently, and okay, you'll be able to tell they failed. But you know what ? you don't fail until the run's over. And we are on the first half.


Hotel Dusk is a better game than Sam and Max, and is probably my favorite adventure game since Grim Fandango as well. I don't see why a game has to be comparable to the best graphic adventure game released to be worthy, though.

When you'd paid for a full game, then you can complain about a game that's too short to be one. You can complain about the difficulty too, but keep in mind that Sam and Max almost destroyed its own excellent material by grinding the game to a halt repeatedly for its poorly designed puzzles.

[Oilers99]

Look, let's drop the sci-fi, please. It's WAY off-topic. Maybe start a thread in General Discussion if you want.

Thread derailments are a part of any good forum. If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine, but we don't have to put discussion in particular boxes.

[Mel]

I say we all settle our differences with a dance-off and an Irish jig.

Darn, no one listened to you... There's been no dancing or jigging. :(

http://www.utfp.org/hqbb/images/smilies/trinker.gif

[numble]

Darn, no one listened to you... There's been no dancing or jigging. :(

http://www.utfp.org/hqbb/images/smilies/trinker.gif

Pfft... you're only dancing because you already played Abe Lincoln Must Die! =P

[ShaggE]

Hahaha, no one listens to my suggestions, as they always end in screaming, dismemberment, trout flinging, or other unpleasant results. For example, my suggestion to serve gazpacho soup hot ended in the Great Depantsing of 1774... ah, memories... :p

[Mel]

Pfft... you're only dancing because you already played Abe Lincoln Must Die! =P

:o

Hahaha, no one listens to my suggestions, as they always end in screaming, dismemberment, trout flinging, or other unpleasant results. For example, my suggestion to serve gazpacho soup hot ended in the Great Depantsing of 1774... ah, memories... :p

LOL!

[Yohmi]

Hotel Dusk is a better game than Sam and Max, and is probably my favorite adventure game since Grim Fandango as well. I don't see why a game has to be comparable to the best graphic adventure game released to be worthy, though.

When you'd paid for a full game, then you can complain about a game that's too short to be one. You can complain about the difficulty too, but keep in mind that Sam and Max almost destroyed its own excellent material by grinding the game to a halt repeatedly for its poorly designed puzzles.

Hotel Dusk is not the same kind of game, why compare them ? Hotel Dusk is one of these serious games, I talk about those fun games with laughs at each line, those game you play because your day was sad and you just want to decompress participating to an interactive joke. Then, complain about a game you have bought but you haven't got yet, is just like saying "I don't like this book, but I just read two pages".

[Myrk]

I really love the humour of all of the games, but gameplay wise they are just getting shorter per game (1st/3hr, 2nd/2hr, 3rd/45min.) =/
Puzzles are even more linear with the third game, and all of them follow the same pattern of "do the starting task, do 3 tasks in any order, driving scene, "boss-battle"". I love the games for the humour, so i wont stop buying them, but at this rate Sam & Max is getting pretty predictable.

[Oilers99]

Hotel Dusk is not the same kind of game, why compare them ? Hotel Dusk is one of these serious games, I talk about those fun games with laughs at each line, those game you play because your day was sad and you just want to decompress participating to an interactive joke. Then, complain about a game you have bought but you haven't got yet, is just like saying "I don't like this book, but I just read two pages".

What does the tone of the game have to do with anything? They're both adventure games. I derive enjoyment from all graphic adventure games for the same basic reasons.

[doom saber]

First off, thanks Telltale for waking Sam and Max up again.

You have many fans who will just buy the game automatically because it's Sam and Max. I am one of those. But you are killing us. I'm pretty sure the fanbase will be cut in half since the advent of the new Sam and Max game. Why? Read on.

I've bought the whole season, and played through ep one, two and today three as well. Episode one and two took about three hours for me to finish, and episode three about one hour and a half. The first two were kind of annoying (the kids you know), so even though the last one was the easiest and shortest episode, it was the one I liked the best.

It seems like everyone are complaining about it being too easy and too short. So do I. You (Telltale) said that you didn't want to scare off new adventurers by making the first one too hard. That's a good idea. Normally games are easier in the beginning and harder later on. Not in this case though, atleast not so far.

So why is it too easy? One thing is that is in 3D, and the game is not nearly as detailed as the old 2D counterpart (which I like). Add that you can't combine objects, and that all objects are used throughout the game. The number of "rooms" are way too few as well (yes, even if you combine ep 1+2+3).

I (and the majority of the other buyers) wish that you guys make Sam and Max 3 not in episode style, harder, with more Max, more detailed, and preferably in 2D as well. And a better story, the ones so far are too bad, and too childish. The target audience for this game is around 10 year old kids, and I'm betting the ones who have bought this game are 25+ in average.


You have to realize that Telltale games have to get more gamers into a dying genre for it to be profitable. The reason why the game isn't harder is that they don't want to drive way any new players who aren't used to adventure games. Besides, harder puzzle doesn't always been more challenging or better. I cannot remember which forum I have read this at (probably here or at the kq9 fanmade silver lining forums; l think it is the kq one since I recall a dark layout,) where someone made a great point on how difficulty can lead to illogical puzzles like the puzzle seen in Gabriel Knight 3, where the protagonist has to diguise himself by getting hair from a cat by chasing him into a hole with tape around, resultin in hair sticking onto the tape. The protagonist then makes it into a mustache with honey and uses the mustache to diguise himself as someone else who doesn't have a mustache.

Another one I remember is Phantasmogora 2 where the guy has to put cheese or something to the rate hole so that the rat can go under the couch and pull out the car keys?

I really do not want to play a game with a puzzle so illogical like Sam has to rescue a tied up and a outcold max from whatever by combining ketchip and toothpaste and use it on the stairs, so that Max can wake up by smelling the scent and then bites off his binds.

So far, telltale did an excellent job with ep 3, even though it is short and I can't wait to play the final version of ep 4

[ShaggE]

Another one I remember is Phantasmogora 2 where the guy has to put cheese or something to the rate hole so that the rat can go under the couch and pull out the car keys?

I actually had no trouble with that puzzle, it just clicked for me for some reason. (Oddly, I had a hell of a time figuring out the passwords on his office computer, even though the solution was so obvious)

I really should play that again, I encountered a glitch in the second psychiatrist visit where I did everything I was supposed to, but nothing happened afterwards, they just sat there. *kicks self for not saving the game since the beginning*

[Yohmi]

What does the tone of the game have to do with anything? They're both adventure games. I derive enjoyment from all graphic adventure games for the same basic reasons.

I don't put Another Code and Day of the Tentacle in the same bag, I'm sorry. Then if you do, it's all right, just consider when I say there is for me nothing such as Season 1 since so many times, I don't refere to the adventure game kind, but to the humouristic LucasArts (and co) style. I liked Another code, I didn't played Hotel Dusk, but as I can see, from Ruanway to Hotel Dusk, it's not as funny as a single episode of Sam&Max. Then, they surely are great games, I find Runaway boring but it's not a bad game, I don't know well hotel dusk but some people seems to like it. I prefer humouristic adventure games, that's all ;) I loved Sanitarium, I can't compare it to Curse of Monkey Island... I love them both, but it's not the same thing.

[shadow9d9]

You have to realize that Telltale games have to get more gamers into a dying genre for it to be profitable. The reason why the game isn't harder is that they don't want to drive way any new players who aren't used to adventure games. Besides, harder puzzle doesn't always been more challenging or better. I cannot remember which forum I have read this at (probably here or at the kq9 fanmade silver lining forums; l think it is the kq one since I recall a dark layout,) where someone made a great point on how difficulty can lead to illogical puzzles like the puzzle seen in Gabriel Knight 3, where the protagonist has to diguise himself by getting hair from a cat by chasing him into a hole with tape around, resultin in hair sticking onto the tape. The protagonist then makes it into a mustache with honey and uses the mustache to diguise himself as someone else who doesn't have a mustache.

Another one I remember is Phantasmogora 2 where the guy has to put cheese or something to the rate hole so that the rat can go under the couch and pull out the car keys?

I really do not want to play a game with a puzzle so illogical like Sam has to rescue a tied up and a outcold max from whatever by combining ketchip and toothpaste and use it on the stairs, so that Max can wake up by smelling the scent and then bites off his binds.

So far, telltale did an excellent job with ep 3, even though it is short and I can't wait to play the final version of ep 4

First of all, it is a myth that adventure gaming is a dieing genre. There have been over 20 quality AAA games released in the last 5 years... how many quality computer rpgs have been released in that time? Half? A quarter?

Difficult!= illogical. Quit repeating that because it is not true.

You are making your arguments based on faulty assumptions.

[Linque]

First of all, it is a myth that adventure gaming is a dieing genre. There have been over 20 quality AAA games released in the last 5 years... how many quality computer rpgs have been released in that time? Half? A quarter?


The quality and success of games don't go hand in hand.
Just FYI.

[shadow9d9]

The quality and success of games don't go hand in hand.
Just FYI.

Dieing implies not being produced anymore. A dieing genre has less releases til extinction... and this is not the case.. no one complains about the dieing rpg genre.. yet they complain about the dieing of the adventure genre with tons more games.

I don't get what your response is referring to.

The sales, if I understand what I've been hearing correctly is that the sales are similar to the 90s, they just haven't grown proportionately with market growth. This makes it niche, but not dieing.

[ShaggE]

First of all, it is a myth that adventure gaming is a dieing genre. There have been over 20 quality AAA games released in the last 5 years... how many quality computer rpgs have been released in that time? Half? A quarter?

How many quality World War 2 games were released in the last 5 years? Yet, WW2 games are as popular as ever, despite being clones of each other in nearly every aspect. Quality is relative to each consumer. For instance: I hate Halo, yet it's one of the most popular FPSs ever made. Same with Counterstrike. I'm dead tired, so I don't know if I'm making much sense, but my point (I think lol) is that AAA titles mean nothing if no one buys them. Adventure gamers aren't nearly as numerous as they were in the early 90's, so the games don't sell as much as they would have back then. Ergo, Adventure is indeed dying, despite the reprieve it's seen in the last couple years.

[shadow9d9]

How many quality World War 2 games were released in the last 5 years? Yet, WW2 games are as popular as ever, despite being clones of each other in nearly every aspect. Quality is relative to each consumer. For instance: I hate Halo, yet it's one of the most popular FPSs ever made. Same with Counterstrike. I'm dead tired, so I don't know if I'm making much sense, but my point (I think lol) is that AAA titles mean nothing if no one buys them. Adventure gamers aren't nearly as numerous as they were in the early 90's, so the games don't sell as much as they would have back then. Ergo, Adventure is indeed dying, despite the reprieve it's seen in the last couple years.

As I already said, while it has not gained market share, it is still selling in the same numbers. Which means it remains stagnant. In order to die, you need to lose numbers of both games and sales and quality. None of which applies here.

If games keep coming out at the rate and quality of the last 5 yeras.. when will the genre be "dead" if you claim it is "dieing" now?

[numble]

Semantics aside, if doom saber had said the word "stagnant" instead of "dying," then I believe his point still holds.

FPSs, RPGs and other games are blossoming on consoles because that is where the sales are (100 million PS2s sold, capturing just 9% of this market = 9 million sales). Yes, specific sales data would be useful, but we aren't privy to that, so we must look at other factors. The fact that Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony appear to be courting Telltale for development on their respective consoles seems to indicate that they believe Telltale's games would be successful on consoles (rare for a typical niched adventure game). The fact that third party adventure developers (Ankh, Al Emmo, Samorost, et al) put their wares in the Telltale Store (voluntarily accepting a profit loss) seems to indicate that they believe that Telltale would be successful at capturing non-niche audiences.

Oh yeah--Disco isn't dead!

[shadow9d9]

Semantics aside, if doom saber had said the word "stagnant" instead of "dying," then I believe his point still holds.

FPSs, RPGs and other games are blossoming on consoles because that is where the sales are (100 million PS2s sold, capturing just 9% of this market = 9 million sales). Yes, specific sales data would be useful, but we aren't privy to that, so we must look at other factors. The fact that Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony appear to be courting Telltale for development on their respective consoles seems to indicate that they believe Telltale's games would be successful on consoles (rare for a typical niched adventure game). The fact that third party adventure developers (Ankh, Al Emmo, Samorost, et al) put their wares in the Telltale Store (voluntarily accepting a profit loss) seems to indicate that they believe that Telltale would be successful at capturing non-niche audiences.

Oh yeah--Disco isn't dead!

That is all and great, but stagnant is not growing.. dieing is DIEING. They are complete opposites.

Ankh was also sold in box form, as was al emmo... this is just an alternative way-downloading.
Samarost is a super short game made by a college student or 2.

[numble]

When they speak about dying economies and dying industries in The Economist, I know what they mean. They use the terms synonymously with "stagnant economy," and "stagnant industry." Some people prefer the term stagnant, but it is semantically the same when you are discussing the non-living context of market and economic factors. Remember the context.

[shadow9d9]

When they speak about dying economies and dying industries in The Economist, I know what they mean. They use the terms synonymously with "stagnant economy," and "stagnant industry." Some people prefer the term stagnant, but it is semantically the same when you are discussing the non-living context of market and economic factors. Remember the context.

Sorry, but a dieing genre doesn't have as many good games being released regularly. That is the bottom line. Claim the sky is falling all you want, I disagree.

If you want to say that the industry isn't growing, that is fine... but as long great games keep coming and their developers are making profits, the genre is simply changing. Smaller companies need less sales. We don't need huge companies like sierra pumping out mediocre sequels... I prefer small companies make great games with souls than big companies with soulless games.

The landscape has changed, but it is not dieing, just changing. Who needs a huge company to make games like escape from monkey island when we have small companies making barrow hill!?

[doom saber]

I didn't know ppl would make a big deal over one little word. Honestly, I usually use the wrong words when describing things and I am well aware of it. I don't know if I used it here or not (1 hour of sleep may contribute to my use of the word,) but in this case, I like to compare this genre to forgotten consoles where small companies and fans still makes games for. If you don't agree with me or are in denial, fine.

Regardless of the situation, adventure games isn't what they were 15 years ago. Call it a dying or stagnant, whatever. The fact of the matter is that adventure games is a genre that is mostly played by people who grew up by them. You can call it a transitional period for adventure games, but the bottom land is that the younger crowd would think that adventure games are games like Tomb Raider and Soul Reaver. It is sad, but true.

As for difficulty of the game, I am quite certain Telltale games will not make it any more difficult, hence the reason why I stop pestering them about it. As for challenging=illogical, true it isn't in every adventure, but I still don't think it is a myth since it is clearly present in some. If you guys don't like reading about it, fine. It doesn't mean it will magically becomes myth because of it. Some Germans do not like hearing ppl repeating that the holocaust even happened, claiming it is a myth. Even so, it still happened.
The Phantasmogora 2 comment was actually mentioned in a PC gamer years ago.

From my personal experience of playing adventure games, challenging and illogical puzzles does happens. It may not seem illogical to one person and the company creating the game since we've in adventure game playing mode where picking up a rock involves using a device that McGvyer can only dream of. However, to people new to the genre, it may be difficult to get in that phase. We all process information differently, based on the enviornment we lived in. Doing something we think is common, we may not be common for another person. As said, it is probable that people may not like very challenging puzzles because of possible frustration and insanity. This frustration may cause the player to generalize adventure games as being mad hard. It doesn't make them any less intelligent than you and I, just that their brains isn't processed that way. Moreover, they may don't want to spend that much effort in solving puzzles that takes a lot of creative thinking or back tracking. True, they can use hint guides, but personally, hint guides take the fun of solving a challenging puzzle yourself. I myself used hint guides once in a while and even though I do, I usually end up kicking myself for solving a puzzle I knew the situation to, but forgot to apply it because of getting sidetrack; even though I haven't used a hint guide on this one particular puzzle, me being sidetracked happened quite recently though due to a pc crashed.

Overall, adventure games, like fighting games, no longer dominate the market like they have years ago. Instead, they are mostly enjoyed by players who remembered them during their golden era. To the chargin of vetern adventure gamers, Telltale is simply trying to give new life into the genre by eliminating the frustrations (a possible turn off to new gamers,) present so that players who haven't experience adventure games before, will not be intimindated by it and continue to play more.

[ShaggE]

Sorry, but a dieing genre doesn't have as many good games being released regularly. That is the bottom line. Claim the sky is falling all you want, I disagree.

If you want to say that the industry isn't growing, that is fine... but as long great games keep coming and their developers are making profits, the genre is simply changing. Smaller companies need less sales. We don't need huge companies like sierra pumping out mediocre sequels... I prefer small companies make great games with souls than big companies with soulless games.

The landscape has changed, but it is not dieing, just changing. Who needs a huge company to make games like escape from monkey island when we have small companies making barrow hill!?

Even though I still say adventure is on life support, truer words have never been spoken, shadow. "We don't need huge companies like sierra pumping out mediocre sequels... I prefer small companies make great games with souls than big companies with soulless games." Sums up my thoughts on gaming altogether. ID Software lost their touch when they became huge, 3D Realms lost their touch when they became huge (and thats hard for me to say, as I still whistle the Apogee fanfare when reminiscing about the good ol' days of gaming lol), hell, even Sierra suffered the fate of becoming too money-hungry to make good titles.

Anyone remember the tidal wave of homebrew games between 1989-1997?
Some of the greatest games were made by these 1 to 4 man teams of people. Pixel Painters, Soleau Software, Morraffware, that guy that made the Hugo quadrilogy.... the list goes on and on. THOSE were games in their purest form.

[shadow9d9]

"Regardless of the situation, adventure games isn't what they were 15 years ago. Call it a dying or stagnant, whatever. The fact of the matter is that adventure games is a genre that is mostly played by people who grew up by them."

First sentence is an opinion. One I disagree with. People tend to substitute critical reviews with their nostalgia. Personally, I enjoyed The Longest Journey, Discworld 2, and Barrow Hill/Dark Fall just as much as I did Sam and Max and Day of the Tentacle. I also think a lot has changed for the better. Smart cursors are much more user friendly and less frustrating than text parsers. Obnoxious mazes/too many deaths(King's quest I am looking at you!) are not as commonplace.

The second statement is a guess. Unless you have demographic data, you are just assuming. My wife just started adventure gaming about 6 months ago... I started with Day of the Tentacle. There is no hard evidence suggesting that the demographics are skewed towards people who grew up on adventures. Matter of fact, many of the complainers about current adventure games and even the first graphic adventure games have been the "original" adventure gamers.

"From my personal experience of playing adventure games, challenging and illogical puzzles does happens."

It does, but it is not necessary. They are not directly correlated.

Thanks Shag for the nice comment.

[mill]

I just wanted to ask you guys what you think about Runaway 2 regarding difficulty, if you have played it.

It's sometimes annoying, although it makes the game harder in a natural way. Their take is that the character must know about the problem in order to be able to find the solution.

For instance, even though you as a player know what to to, the character must perhaps talk to people first so that the character is aware of the problem. The downside is that you have to talk to a person about everything. This means that if you haven't talked to a person about a certain thing (the problem), you cannot make any progress. And sometimes the topic isn't available until later on, which means you have to go back to everyone and talk to them about all topics. And then the mouse-clicking-conversation-skipping-frenzy begin.

Another take is that sometimes when you look at a certain place the player says "I didn't find anything useful" at the time, but if you go back and look another time when you have a problem (e.g. you need to break something), he might find a solution (a hammer).

---

I think the first take is very natual, although annoying. The second one is also very natural, although not that annoying. So there are ways of making a game harder without making illogical puzzles (which are fun sometimes).

[pixelat3d]

I was going to write this incredibly long and persuasive argument about how "adventure" gaming was actually starting to bounce back, about how i think Sam & Max is true to source, about the good ol' days of LucasArts and Sierra games ... but then i read most of this thread and I'm just too drained.

I will say that the thing that bothers me most about this thread and the arguments presented was what 'adventure' gaming seems to equate to. There is a reason we classify games as action/adventure -- don't think you're not playing a true adventure game because you get to swing around a sword occasionally. Adventure gaming never died, ever, it just evolved and merged with other genres to create new experiences. Mentioned above is tomb raider, that's a perfect example. How do you think that game was classified when it came out? It's got puzzle solving, exploration, and story ... you just get to shot some guns too.

That being said i deeply miss the old sierra KQ, SQ, PQ, GK, QFG, LSL games etc. etc. But it's important to ask yourself what exactly you missed from these games. What adventure gaming stood for isn't a single attitude like say Monkey Island or Day of the Tentacle -- There were always intricate games with deep and rich story lines that were not funny. Quest for Glory was a perfect example; completely classified as an adventure game when it was out, but you can probably bet that if a new one were to come out today it would be an action/adventure or RPG. It's important to realize that what we loved about adventure games never changed, the classification just expanded to be more robust.

[doom saber]

I just wanted to ask you guys what you think about Runaway 2 regarding difficulty, if you have played it.

It's sometimes annoying, although it makes the game harder in a natural way. Their take is that the character must know about the problem in order to be able to find the solution.

For instance, even though you as a player know what to to, the character must perhaps talk to people first so that the character is aware of the problem. The downside is that you have to talk to a person about everything. This means that if you haven't talked to a person about a certain thing (the problem), you cannot make any progress. And sometimes the topic isn't available until later on, which means you have to go back to everyone and talk to them about all topics. And then the mouse-clicking-conversation-skipping-frenzy begin.

Another take is that sometimes when you look at a certain place the player says "I didn't find anything useful" at the time, but if you go back and look another time when you have a problem (e.g. you need to break something), he might find a solution (a hammer).

---

I think the first take is very natual, although annoying. The second one is also very natural, although not that annoying. So there are ways of making a game harder without making illogical puzzles (which are fun sometimes).

True, I think another apporach to hard puzzles is making something for that event like some villain hog ties you, take all your stuff, and locks you up in the basement. You probably have to do some searching my hoping on side to side to find what useful items to untie your self like say if you see a mirror hangin, you can hop over there, use your head to hit the wall, making the mirror shatter and you falling on your side, and somehow use the shatter mirror shards to cut you loose.

Another thing I think companies should do is have alternate ways to solve a puzzle

[Guybrush_Threepwood]

Also, (playing Runaway) you often need to practice some good (?) old (?) pixel-hunting to find the objects you can pick up, that's obviously not exciting but, hey, it increases the difficulty even if it's annoying.:rolleyes:
Ok, that's not a pro, but I remember that in CMI you could easily figure out the items you needed to get, because they had a lower resolution compared to the backgrounds. That bothered me a bit, honestly.

Another thing I think companies should do is have alternate ways to solve a puzzle

I really couldn't agree more! Too bad it's something we've already seen in a game like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and, who knows why, after that experiment no other point & click adventure was made that way :( Apart from Indy Atlantis, that was practically made as if it was 3 different short games with a common ending for each of them.
After that, adventure games became more linear, I dunno why.

[Oilers99]

I don't put Another Code and Day of the Tentacle in the same bag, I'm sorry. Then if you do, it's all right, just consider when I say there is for me nothing such as Season 1 since so many times, I don't refere to the adventure game kind, but to the humouristic LucasArts (and co) style. I liked Another code, I didn't played Hotel Dusk, but as I can see, from Ruanway to Hotel Dusk, it's not as funny as a single episode of Sam&Max. Then, they surely are great games, I find Runaway boring but it's not a bad game, I don't know well hotel dusk but some people seems to like it. I prefer humouristic adventure games, that's all ;) I loved Sanitarium, I can't compare it to Curse of Monkey Island... I love them both, but it's not the same thing.

If you consider humor to be the important thing, then Psychonauts is the better game.

[Oilers99]

I'm not sure why the action-adventure genre is considered a child of graphic adventure games. They generally de-emphasize inventory-based puzzles, don't put too much emphasis on character interaction or dialogue, and put far more emphasis on exploration than most graphic adventure games. A story-driven nature isn't considered one of the staples of the genre either, at least, not much more than games in general right now. They're pretty dissimilar genres in a lot of ways, and I usually enjoy them for totally different reasons.

[Yohmi]

If you consider humor to be the important thing, then Psychonauts is the better game.

You're surely right ;) I never played this game more than say... thirty seconds, I hate the gameplay. But I only read good critics about, so maybe one day I'll retry ;) I don't like the chara design either, and videos I saw shows too much "action" phases, just like broken sword 3... but one day maybe ^^

[pixelat3d]

I'm not sure why the action-adventure genre is considered a child of graphic adventure games. They generally de-emphasize inventory-based puzzles, don't put too much emphasis on character interaction or dialogue, and put far more emphasis on exploration than most graphic adventure games. A story-driven nature isn't considered one of the staples of the genre either, at least, not much more than games in general right now. They're pretty dissimilar genres in a lot of ways, and I usually enjoy them for totally different reasons.

I can see your point, however, i didn't say that every action/adventure game was, in essence an adventure game. The criteria i take to define 'adventure' game are the following:

Exploration
Logic Puzzles (be it inventory, or in the case of say the 7th guest straight up puzzles)
Storyline
Character Interaction

If you look at that list you can probably see the point i was aiming for. All of the things that defined adventure gaming as a genre (to me at least) are so broad and overlapping that they're included in almost every genre.

Action / Adventure = Adventure game with swords and or guns and such.
RPG = Adventure game with numbers, and some combat
Puzzle game = 1/4th of an adventure game
FPS = FPS stands alone mostly -- except with the case of something like half-life 2 (i'm not sure if i include the physics puzzles in 'logic puzzles, but it wouldn't be a stretch to do so)
etc. etc.

Now this doesn't always ring true of course, games like say DOOM 3 i wouldn't consider an adventure game, even though there's an inventory system, a story, and -some- character interaction. The point is that the genre definition itself, albeit very verbose in its definition, is still very vague. So, when i say that adventure gaming never died i mean that the genre itself is so omnipresent that it simply exists in most games. Now we can keep going and re-dub them 'graphic adventure' games or 'point-and-click' adventure games, but at what point are we simply splitting hairs? Or, in my QFG example in the previous post, break the predefined definition and simply invalidate the previous categorization?

[Kefky]

I would say that games like KOTOR and Fables managed to put together the best of worlds. I would LOVE to play a graphic adventure with that kind of scope someday.

[bashar]

I agree to the point episode 3 was too short. However looking at episode 4 pics and trailer, I can see why. They seem to have sacrificed 3 for 4. Episodes are a must I believe however to cut down the cost. We as Sam & Max fans will most likely enjoy the game, but I don't think they can acquire many new fans right now.

I hope that by season 2, they will have their base rich to develop longer ones. And hey, many episodes ended by being full movies in cinema like Simpson, so why not have Sam & Max full game later on when the company establishes its roots.

[dunkpork]

Genres can't die. They aren't alive.

Adventure games have been around forever, and probably always will be.

The real problem (well, not really the only problem, but it's a snappy rhetorical phrase) is the oversaturation and the brainwashing of the modern game market by four culprits: FPS games, RTS games, MMORPGs, and 3d card manufacturers.

[misskitty]

I kinda agree that the episodes can be a bit too short , but i dont think the episode thing is a bad idea i end up really looking forwartd to the start of the month for the next one.

if it is designed for 10yrs old who care id like to state im nearly 29yrs old and am having a great time playing it and before it pointed out its cuase im a girly :P my boyfriend plays it with me we work it out together it great for a couple that loves games but dont usually agree on um

If they do the next sam and max like this thats col but maybe do it a little bit longer each episode but overall im very happy and I know this isnt the thread but i have to say I think the service by Tobacco and Emily is outstanding ive never known such caring staff

[ShaggE]

If they do the next sam and max like this thats col but maybe do it a little bit longer each episode but overall im very happy and I know this isnt the thread but i have to say I think the service by Tobacco and Emily is outstanding ive never known such caring staff

Don't forget Jake :)

[shadow9d9]

I kinda agree that the episodes can be a bit too short , but i dont think the episode thing is a bad idea i end up really looking forwartd to the start of the month for the next one.

if it is designed for 10yrs old who care id like to state im nearly 29yrs old and am having a great time playing it and before it pointed out its cuase im a girly :P my boyfriend plays it with me we work it out together it great for a couple that loves games but dont usually agree on um

If they do the next sam and max like this thats col but maybe do it a little bit longer each episode but overall im very happy and I know this isnt the thread but i have to say I think the service by Tobacco and Emily is outstanding ive never known such caring staff

With your spelling, grammar, and lack of punctuation, I have a hard time taking you serious. Run-on sentences much?

[numble]

With your spelling, grammar, and lack of punctuation, I have a hard time taking you serious. Run-on sentences much?

Coincidentally, I happen to have a hard time taking you seriously.

[Emily]

Shadow9d9, knock it off with the attitude, please. That comment was completely uncalled for.

[AdamG]

I consider myself a big fan of Sam & Max. I'm 22 and have been a computer geek since I was 6 1/2, and remember the original Sam & Max sensation. I never played the game or read the comics back then, but about two years ago I played the game. I really liked it, I was an instant fan.
So when this new series came out I kept my eye on it all, and signed up for Gametap to watch the old cartoons and get the games over Gametap. I also pre-ordered the collectors edition, so basically I paid for it twice. (fine with me, as long as there's a Season 2 ;p)
I was a bit concerned at first about it being entirely 3D and all, old 2D classics that were made into 3D games are almost always cheap budget worthless knock-offs that are so terrible they make you cry. I was reassured though because Telltale seemed to want to treat it with respect, which was much deserved in every way.
So the first episode came out, and I signed up for Gametap. I liked the first one a lot. The voice acting was good, the humor was perfect, the game world was rather cramped, but it was of an acceptable length. The villan was rather lame though. Most people don't like references to The Brady Bunch period, urhg.
The second episode seemed even more cramped, the humor was still great, the voice acting even better, and the story acceptable. I'm also not a big fan of day-time telivision, but it makes for good humor. I was dissapointed because the second episode was shorter then the first, it was about 3/4 as long. I figured that was normal though, afterall the first one was probably worked on more and it should be a bit longer.
The third episode had a more interesting story, no doubt. The voice acting is perfect, and the humor still great. But it's getting even emptier, less of everything, and the repition of everything is getting monotonous and rather dull. The length of the third episode is actually rather alarming, it's half as long as the first episode. At this rate the sixth episode will be 30 minutes long.
The humor is great, by far the strongest point is the humor. Honestly if it wasn't for the humor, people wouldn't even be slightly dissapointed, they'd be long gone.
What is needed, desperately, right now is more content, and less repitition. It's really too late now as most of the rest of the episodes are probably already made. I just hope the trend of less content and continuing repitition doesn't continue, or lots of people will be sorely dissapointed.
Even if the rest of Season 1 doesn't do so well as the first half, I would still stick around if they would be willing to do a Season 2 (as they should, regardless of the final outcome). I think that the leasons learned from Season 1 should be paid attention to and applied liberally to Season 2. If Telltale is willing to do that, then everyone will be happy. The main points so far seem to be...

1) Slightly more content is needed. (Say at least the size of episode 1, maybe 20% larger)

2) More complicated gameplay. (Too simple, just collect items and use on other items in the game world. Actual problems are also a bit too simple, but shouldn't be significantly harder.)

3) More diversity! (Keeping the main neighborhood is ok, but there needs to be some freedom, some extras. City map and driving ability anyone? Two or three new main characters in a Season 2 is a must.)

4) Keep the humor!!! Without it Sam & Max is doomed. (Be a bit outrageous if you have to, but don't lose the humor. Sam & Max are rather adult oriented afterall.)


Also on a note, I would definately like to see a new Sam & Max cartoon series. I know Telltale isn't in the cartoon business, but maybe something could be arranged with Purcell? Try to push him into making a new series anyway. I'd be willing to pay to watch a new cartoon series, especially if they are between 15-20 minutes an episode.

[AdamG]

I also would like to say that everyone here is really screwing up a good opportunity to get Telltale's attention and give good feedback and suggestions. That's what they're looking for here, not talk about science fiction and the state of the industry. Please try to keep that in mind, because if you don't then they won't know how they're doing (which I would rate a 85% at right now) and Sam & Max will fall into oblivion for another decade.

[Maratanos]

It has been said that Episode 3 may in fact be the shortest episode in the season.

[AdamG]

Oh, it definately is the shortest. The content is better, but it's lacking in size. Then there's the few puzzles and repitition of content issues. Personally I would rate the first episode at 93%, the second at 85%, and the third at 78%

[Maratanos]

no, I mean including 4, 5, and 6. ;)

This was from Telltale.

EDIT: see this post. (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19341#post19341)

[AdamG]

Oh... I see... Well, good! :D

[t800]

i dont think we really want to go back to 2D. i love the old series but i would rather experiment with cartoony rendering or shaders than go back to 2D. Comic like 3D realtime rendering, now that would be cool.

as for the complexity that is one issue that has always been a problem in this kind of game. you have to admit that the old games were often really really overcomplicated. millions of possibilities to combine things, often totally pointless resolutions to problems. we only played them because they are indeed fun but also because we 1. had nothing else 2. had an incredible patience because these games were still new.

to make it clear: i would not at all want to be totally lost in a game and wait half a year before i find the answer by accident or a friend telling me like back then in the olden days. i would just give up or look it up on the net, wheres the fun in that. if you want to raise the difficulty, then it has to be in another way than just hiding pick up items so that you wont find them. maybe it would be fun to combine items and have more multi-usable or even combinable items yes, but we dont want to have to guess at random or spend ten minutes clicking every pixel of the screen in case we missed something. we need something new there...

[t800]

oh yeah and maybe i would prefer more mature non-player characters. cartoonish yes, but a bit less infantile and harmless looking.

[AdamG]

I like the simple and cartoonish models. :P It actually seems like a 3D cartoon, which is no small feat. Here's a couple ideas... Implement cartoon effects like action lines (don't know what to call them, when something moves you make lines in the opposite direction? stuff like that) motion blur... oh, wait, the soda poppers did that :P... um... maybe some kind of model warping? Like, say, if you bounce a ball it warps... That would make things seem more cartoonish and dynamic.

[shadow9d9]

Shadow9d9, knock it off with the attitude, please. That comment was completely uncalled for.

Was it untrue? Not one period or other punctuation, terrible grammar, and one big run-on sentence... How is pointing out the truth considered having an attitude?

[xendria]

Mill:

Quit whinging, they already said it's gonna be harder. When the whole 6 episodes are combined, it's actually quite a long game.

[Maratanos]

Was it untrue? Not one period or other punctuation, terrible grammar, and one big run-on sentence... How is pointing out the truth considered having an attitude?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... If you know what's good for you, you won't argue with administrators. Trust me.

[AdamG]

The grammar and spelling thread is somewhere else.

[Fangarius]

First off, when I heard Telltale Games was making a Sam & Max game, I was excited, because I never really got to play the LucasArts version (long story short, had a really primitive computer, and my friend played it one time before letting it go to another guy, never to be seen again), and the one planned for Xbox (presumably) and PC turned out to be a bust.

I'm 38, and I've got the Sam & Max Surfs the Highway GN, and I loved the animated series, despite what Fox Kids did to it. So personally I like the Telltale Game episodes for reviving the series.

Though the games are short, and some of the puzzles are easy, you have to realize TTG isn't like a major developer where they can conjure up something like Oddworld's Stranger's Wrath, or Psychonauts, and expect you to pay $8.95 per episode. And at least I like the fact they don't pull this false security jazz like most console games do, where the first level are ridiculously easy to conquer, then in the middle they get difficult to where you want to give up.

Thus you wonder why those $50 and $60 games have no lasting appeal at times. I love the humour and interaction with Sam & Max and though Sam sounds different, the voice actor for Max has the character dead on. Until I read the site, I thought they used the same actor for Max.

Personally, I would love other regular characters for S&M to interact with like Myrna, but I realize TTG has their hands full keeping up with Bosco and Sybil. As with all things, though you might feel disappointed with the games at the moment, we're only halfway through the season, and eventually they can only get better. I, for one, can't wait to see what Episode 4 brings.

Better yet, I can't wait to see if Sam & Max can make it to the Nintendo Wii.

[mill]

Quit whinging, they already said it's gonna be harder.

Well, yeah, for the second or third episode I think Emily said if I can recall correctly, but so far it's only been getting easier, hasn't it?

[mill]

Not really relevant to the discussion apart from being an adventure game, but this one appears to be in 2D: http://www.amegames.com/vs/default.asp

Dunno how big Autumn Moon are, but they seem to afford doing it in 2D.

[numble]

Its actually 3D with 2D backgrounds. They can't afford full 2D:


We started off with a 2D engine, but quickly discovered that 2D animation production was too slow and would eat up too much of our budget. Also, games like Syberia and Runaway: A Road Adventure came out and showed that point & click 2D/3D hybrids could work both technically and aesthetically. Plus our animator has a lot of experience in 3D animation and works faster in it. It just made more sense. We will even experiment with a celshaded 2D filter to help the characters blend better with the 2D backgrounds.

[mill]

Its actually 3D with 2D backgrounds. They can't afford full 2D:

good enough for me. I guess you get the best from two worlds -- great detailed backgrounds and great animation.

[fhqwhgads]

Was it untrue? Not one period or other punctuation, terrible grammar, and one big run-on sentence... How is pointing out the truth considered having an attitude?

I guess calling someone with a disability a retard is also the truth and not offensive at all...

EDIT: Ok, ok, I know it's a harsh example, but it's not like you are going to say to such a person, "I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously because you're disabled."

[ShaggE]

I guess calling someone with a disability a retard is also the truth and not offensive at all...

EDIT: Ok, ok, I know it's a harsh example, but it's not like you are going to say to such a person, "I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously because you're disabled."

Well said. How can anyone have a meaningful conversation if they are busy pointing out flaws in grammar and whatnot? For instance: I have a bad habit of severely overusing commas. But, as long as the reader understands what I wrote, than what's the problem? I hold nothing but the highest respect for the spoken and written word, but a bit of bad punctuation now and then is harmless. e.e. cummings made a career out of his bad punctuation :P

[Smollie]

Geeze Louise!!!
I really think it's time to close this thread and move on to more constructing discussions.
Like how Sam & Max can function as rolemodels in pursuing worldpeace and free asbestos for all!

And I don't think my carpet matches the drapes.

[marsan]

I want to close this wonderful thread with saying: I just played Sam & Max - Hit the road. It's so hilarious to see how many links there are from that good old game to the new episodes :) Like Jessie James Hand ;) and Bosco's is next door in Hit the road too, but there they beat the crap out of him ;) and I think that picture on the wall of them from mars is a heads-up as well. I just don't remember what it is supposed to remind me of :)

That's all folks.

[Welshy]

Bosco's is next door in Hit the road too, but there they beat the crap out of him ;)

That's all folks.

If memory serves, im sure they beat the crap out of a guy who's trying to rob Bosco, not beat up Bosco himself

[Udvarnoky]

Not really relevant to the discussion apart from being an adventure game, but this one appears to be in 2D: http://www.amegames.com/vs/default.asp

Dunno how big Autumn Moon are, but they seem to afford doing it in 2D.

Autumn Moon has been around since 2002 trying to secure a publisher, and only recently got one. Also apparently a lot the pre-production team worked on it without getting paid. Starving artists are commendable, but most people start a business to stay in business. If Telltale makes decisions that ensure themselves a future, we get more adventure games from them.

[Erwin]

Autumn Moon has been around since 2002 trying to secure a publisher, and only recently got one. Also apparently a lot the pre-production team worked on it without getting paid. Starving artists are commendable, but most people start a business to stay in business. If Telltale makes decisions that ensure themselves a future, we get more adventure games from them.

That may be, but their courage and perseverance seem to have taken them quite far already. The game's coming out this year, and I'm looking very much forward to it. I hope the sales will be rewarding their boldness.

--Erwin

[Udvarnoky]

Perhaps you picked up something from what I wrote that wasn't there?

[AdamG]

I think that picture on the wall of them from mars is a heads-up as well. I just don't remember what it is supposed to remind me of :)

That's from the cartoon series. You can watch some of them on Youtube, or all of them on Gametap.

[Hero1]

thats from the sam and max comic..bad day on the moon

[AdamG]

It's also from the cartoon episode, also named "Bad Day On The Moon".

[Jake]

Right, it is from both, though Hero1 is right in that the comic came first, and the TV episode was adapted from it.

[AdamG]

Yeppers. :I

[maklenard]

i think the game is still great even if its episodic and short.
I'm the kinda gamer that wants to finish games in one sitting.
Then regrets spending 6 hours gaming afterwards.

The episodic nature keeps me from skipping out on work hehe
i love episode gaming!

[numble]

Chuck Jordan (writer on Curse of Monkey Island and Sam and Max episodes 4-6) offers an interesting, and almost completely different take (http://www.spectrecollie.com/archives/2007/01/longer-and-harder/) on the whole length debate:

It’s something that’s bugged me ever since I moved out here and started working in videogames.

The problem is the weird dollar-to-hour value ratio people use when talking about games. You’ll frequently see a game review, or just public opinion of a game, focus on how the game is “too short.” Not that it was shallow, or ended too abruptly, just that it “only” took three-to-nine hours to finish it. (Yes, Half Life 2: Episode 1 took some reviewers nine hours to finish, and it was still “too short.”)

More often than not, this complaint will come immediately after the comment that the game was very well-written, had great dialogue, a great setting, and well-developed characters. But still, “too short.”

What I like about Tycho’s post is that he finally put into words what bugs me about this — it’s turning games from works of art into commodities. You pay x dollars for a game, you’re an American with an inflated sense of entitlement, therefore you sure as hell better get y hours of entertainment out of it.

What other art form does this? I’ve never read a book review that dinged the book because it was less than 300 pages long. I’ve never seen a movie that was only an hour and a half, and then demanded half my money back, because I got twice as much entertainment time out of The Lord of the Rings. Often you’ll see the exact same people who get all up in arms whenever Roger Ebert or somebody dismisses games as being incapable of being works of art, then go and complain that they paid $60 for Dead Reckoning: Vengeance of Kain 2 and only got 20 hours game time out of it.

There are three possible solutions, as I see it:

Introduce “standard” game lengths. Television is broken up into blocks of thirty-minute and hour-long programs, and people don’t seem baffled by that. Board games generally list play times on the box. Publishers can start releasing games of standard 4-hour, 12-hour, etc. lengths, and have QA report the “average” length of time it takes to play. If the people want filler, give them filler, and see how they like it.
Report the game length in reviews, but don’t make it qualitative. Game review sites love their decimal-accurate scores, so those aren’t going away. But a so-called “videogame journalist” should be embarrassed about writing good thing after good thing about a game, and then giving it a sub-par score just because it’s “too short.” Tell the readers it only took you x amount of time to play, and then review the game on its own merits.
Suck it up, people. We keep hearing how the average age of videogame players is going up; last I heard, it was around 23. People that age should have enough discretionary income that they don’t have to be such tightwads with their entertainment dollars. I can understand a twelve-year-old’s being disappointed that the game he spent his allowance on didn’t last him more than a couple of days. I’ve got a lot less sympathy for the dude who’s got a job and shouldn’t have that many hours to spend on a game in the first place. If you want videogames to be treated as art, then stop treating them as products.

[Evil Penguin]

I would just like to add that, while I too think that it would be terrific with a little longer and slightly more challenging episodes, I have found episodes 1-3 very enjoyable! (And I'm very happy to have bought the whole season!)

Personally, I think the graphics work great, and the voice overs are superb. The story may not be the most intricate, but I think it's very Sam&Maxy (is that a word?) and makes for some good times...


Regarding the debate if episodic games are good or not, I think there's definitely a place for both. Just like there's a place for both TV series and movies.