Sierra Discussion

[joek86]

Even as a Kings Quest fan, my first reaction to this was, "I hope this means tell tale will eventually get to do a Leisure Suit Larry game!" Was I alone in this? I think the humor in tell tale's games (especially the sam & max series) would fit in well with LLL. Any other Sierra games that should get this treatment?

[Irishmile]

I would love a Leisure Suit Larry, Freddy Pharkas or Space Quest game.. Those were all great and funny games.

I know Freddy Pharkas is not really well known though so it isn't likely...

[RAnthonyMahan]

As much as I love King's Quest, I admit I'd rather they do a Space Quest game.

One of Telltale's greatest strengths is in their humor, so the goofiness of Space Quest would suit them more than the relative seriousness of King's Quest.

[Hero1]

I want Police Quest.. Best Sierra title as far as I'm, concerned

[Irishmile]

Oh man Police Quest seemed so gritty and real when I was a kid.

[SHODANFreeman]

Shivers 2 was the only Sierra game I ever played and remotely enjoyed, so... Shivers 3? :p

[Ignatius]

If things go well with KQ i think Larry should cum next.

HOHOHO, see what i did there?..Because you know Larry....and...and..........yeah ok i'm leaving now.

[Secret Fawful]

This should be a poll with multiple options.

My ranking of what Telltale should do:
Gabriel Knight>Space Quest> Laura Bow> Police Quest> Phantasmagoria(I'd just like to see them try)

King's Quest has enough good sequels to last anyone.

[corruptbiggins]

Gabriel Knight is my favourite Sierra series, followed by Police Quest.

[Farlander]

Quest for Glory is my favourite Sierra series, but I wouldn't like TellTale doing it, something like QfG requires far grander scope than episodic adventure games.

[MusicallyInspired]

ActiVision sold Leisure Suit Larry to CodeMasters. Telltale won't be doing that one unless they license it from CodeMasters.

[Drahcir]

Quest for Glory is my favourite Sierra series, but I wouldn't like TellTale doing it, something like QfG requires far grander scope than episodic adventure games.

I feel the same way, but part of me just wants to see more Quest for Glory anyway. It's been 13 years! :P

[doom saber]

I feel the same way, but part of me just wants to see more Quest for Glory anyway. It's been 13 years! :P

I would like to see a QFG title as well. Since the hero's quest is over, I would like to see another hero in the title. Maybe a "loser" female main character drop-out who decides to follow the footsteps of her college/school alumni in hopes to seek glory.

[Drahcir]

Since the hero's quest is over

Not necessarily! That all depends on what choice you made at the end, and besides, when something happens, a hero must answer the call! He always did before, and heck, half the time he was teleported away against his will anyway!

[doom saber]

Not necessarily! That all depends on what choice you made at the end, and besides, when something happens, a hero must answer the call! He always did before, and heck, half the time he was teleported away against his will anyway!

True that he is always on the call, but I would like to Telltale start anew since Quest For Glory was intended to be the final game despite that it was going to have an expansion set. Just seems odd to me that they would start another one after Sierra tied everything up nicely in part 5.

Having the mutliple endings in part 5 is done so that there wouldn't be a next one. I mean, the QFG games has a decent continuity and having the hero start a new adventure. Be hard to ignore whatever happened to the hero. For instance, did he become king, married someone, etc..? Giving him a new love interest and having him go onto a new adventure would defeat the purpose of those mutliple endings.

[Drahcir]

True, I see what you're saying. Either a new story could work, or possibly a reboot like it seems they might be doing with King's Quest. After all, it would allow them to better tie things and themes together throughout the games, (If they wanted to reuse old plot elements) since QFG3 wasn't originally intended to exist, it always kind of felt odd, especially with the villain that wasn't important in the grand scheme of things.

I'm just a huge QFG fan and seeing King's Quest coming back has my hopes up. :P

[Woodsyblue]

I think the idea is that if King's Quest is successful Telltale will be able to make other old Sierra titles. I too believe Space Quest would be the best fit for them, and not just because it was my favorite of the old Sierra franchises. It had a wacky irreverent humor that Telltale have show they can do well.

[Andorxor]

MY list of games i would like to see:
1.Freddy Pharkas
2.Torins Passage
3.Quest for glory
4.Space Quest
5.Conquest of the longbow
6.Gabriel Knight
7.Police quest
8.Dr. Brain
9. Ecoquest

[Leplaya]

It would be FREAKING awesome if Telltale games brought back Leisure Suit Larry(the proper one, not those two insulting games that shouldn't even be part of the series). Just make sure Al Lowe has some sort of part of it. But before they do an episodic series of it, get Lust in Space made not in an episodic form but as a single game like it was originally intended. Also, it wouldn't be great if it was done in 3D make it 2D like Love for sail. THEN you can make an episodic series of Larry, also Torin's passage would be a sweet deal as well since it was planned out as a series similar to King's quest.

[Inder]

Ohh how I would love to see TT do a Space quest game, loved the series(exept maybe the last game)

[Inder]

Ohh how I would love to see TT do a Space quest game, loved the series(except maybe the last game)

[joek86]

Even though its not tell tale's usual genre, it would be interesting to see them take a stab at making a Phantasmagoria game. I loved the first one, but the second one was bad. At least with a series like that it might be easier since they don't have twenty years of continuity to deal with like other sierra titles.

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

An FMV Phantasmagoria instalment from Telltale complete with episodic cliffhangers. I would buy it. :)

[der_ketzer]

I loved the first one, but the second one was bad.

They are both quite different and I liked them both at least I liked the second one up to a certain point where the puzzles really got unintuitive. (if you played the game you might know what I am referring to)
There is a great Let's Play by The Spoony One (http://spoonyexperiment.com/category/lets-play/phantasmagoria/) for this game on his website. --> start at the bottom with hour 1 of course!

Both games start quite slowly but I like the feel of the second game a lot more. The horror starts out more subtle and half of the game you just wonder if Curtis is nuts of if what he sees is real.

The first game was clearly fantasy from the first second at least I had the impression because of the talking skull on the bottom of the screen.

I would actually like to see a horror themed game by Telltale. That could be quite interesting.

Also Telltale please make LSL 4.

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

The first game was clearly fantasy from the first second at least I had the impression because of the talking skull on the bottom of the screen.
Murray? :p

Similarly portentous, too.

[galbyman]

Definatly want Quest for Glory and Space Quest. On a side note, has anyone noticed that the KQ forums have more threads than the three other new game forums combined?

[der_ketzer]

Definatly want Quest for Glory and Space Quest. On a side note, has anyone noticed that the KQ forums have more threads than the three other new game forums combined?

I wouldn't have expected anything else tbh. Never heard of the other licenses.

[GuybrushWilco]

Beyond King's Quest, I'd most like to see a new Space Quest game. Hey, maybe if KQ does well enough, a new SQ is a possibility :).

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

I agree with everyone who has said they need Scott Murphy for that!

[PimPamPet]

Phantasmagoria(I'd just like to see them try)

Even though its not tell tale's usual genre, it would be interesting to see them take a stab at making a Phantasmagoria game.

An FMV Phantasmagoria instalment from Telltale complete with episodic cliffhangers. I would buy it. :)

NO.

I wouldn't mind seeing some new Police Quest games or even Leisure Suit Larry (but only if you get Al Lowe involved!).

[Rather Dashing]

NO.
Care to elaborate on the why of that "No"?

[Irishmile]

Al Lowe told me personally in an email a while back that there is no way he is coming out of retirement..... But I wonder if he would take a limited roll and add some jokes or plot ideas over the phone or something.... But sadly Larry is no longer owned by the same company that the other Sierra games are owned by.

[Pak-Man]

Quest for Glory seems like it could take Telltale in some awesome new directions. Episodic would mean you could carry your custom character through 5 parts, and they could even set up different endings depending on choices you made all through the series. Plus clunky RPG combat!

[Datadog]

Leisure Suit Larry and Space Quest seem best-suited towards Telltale's comedic style. Gabriel Knight would also work great if they wanted to do something more serious.

LSL might be a more risque venture for TT, but I feel that's a series that can stand on it's own legs without all the gratuitous sex and nudity. It's a comedy about a 40 year-old bachelor chasing girls and going on exotic vacations - and even though the male lead was sleazy, the series always had charm. Even women enjoyed the games. Build a series around that instead of turning it into another disgusting porn fantasy for men like MCL and BOB.

Another cool idea: continue the Torin's Passage series. Al Lowe already has a five-game story arc ready for it.

[Irishmile]

i do not think larry was sleazy just hopelessly out of style and desperate.

[Sledgy]

God, I hope for Space Quest! :)

[Brainiac]

Gabriel Knight would also work great if they wanted to do something more serious.

Gah, the idea of a GK game without Jane Jensen working on it makes me grimace, especially after GK3's ending.

[BobFM]

"Winnie the Pooh in the Hundred Acre Wood"

...It's the first adventure game I ever played, OK?! :D

But seriously. Space Quest.

[Radogol]

Gah, the idea of a GK game without Jane Jensen working on it makes me grimace, especially after GK3's ending.

She's freelance at the moment. There's no doubt TellTale would approach her, that's how they roll.

[Brainiac]

She's freelance at the moment. There's no doubt TellTale would approach her, that's how they roll.

I should certainly hope so.

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Amen.

[Got Haggis?]

a new Space Quest game would be AMAZING.

[Irishmile]

If I had my say Kings Quest would have been first followed by Leisure Suit Larry, Space Quest and then Freddy Pharkas..

[Chyron8472]

I wasn't impressed with Freddy Pharkas.


Maybe Torin's Passage.

[philthethrill]

Maybe Torin's Passage.

I like that game. My favorite character is Queen Di because she can always express her opinion by mumbling, since King Rupert can't hear or understand what she's saying. What do you think the sequel should be like? Would Torin become the next King? Would he marry Leenah? What would become of Lycentia, his nanny? Will Torin's adoptive parents move in with him if he becomes King, or will they continue working on their farm? What about Boogle? Will Torin want to avenge the men who banished Lycentia to the lands below?

[edwardkoo]

Space Quest by Telltale is no.1 must buy for me!

[pheeph]

I could sure go for some Space Quest...

[GuybrushWilco]

What about Mystery House? :)

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Now that would be something else! My main interest is the animated adventure games, but a totally modern version of Mystery House would be fantastic.

They could even make it a series. Maybe reuse the same house, but with different groups of people in different time periods, with the upkeep, furnishings, layout and environs matching the period.

A killer concept that has never yet been done in adventure games! :eek:

[Rather Dashing]

I still would love to see a modern go at a game with full-motion actors like Phantasmagoria.

[der_ketzer]

I still would love to see a modern go at a game with full-motion actors like Phantasmagoria.

and how many GB would that game be? Even then they came on 4-6 CDs. And those videos were not really high quality. (but indeed I agree. I really enjoyed these games but making something like this episodic might be difficult. Almost nothing happens in the first part of these games)

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Rather Dashing, I share your wish wholeheartedly.

[sam_curtis]

It's surprising, to me, that there is actually a lot of disagreement about which Sierra game would be the ideal one for Telltale to tackle.

Personally, I would have thought that Space Quest was the obvious choice. Especially if they could drag Scott Murphy out of retirement for it.

Clearly, tastes vary. But I for one am really hoping that I'll get to see Roger Wilco pick up his mop again. That would be an insta-buy for me.

[MusicallyInspired]

See, I think Space Quest is the worst choice for a Telltale game. Besides it being my favourite game series and my reservations about Telltale dumbing it down aside, it just isn't Telltale's brand of humour. No matter what game Telltale has made they all have the same humour. Sometimes it's chuckle worthy, but most of the time it's just ok and not anything special. Space Quest wouldn't work with Telltale just because it's a comedy. It's a completely different brand of comedy that I just don't see Telltale replicating properly.

As much as I want to see a new Space Quest game someday, I don't really think Telltale is the company to bring it. I would NOT buy it.

[doggans]

No matter what game Telltale has made they all have the same humour.

You really think so? I thought the humor in SBCG4AP felt like Brothers Chaps humor, the humor in Wallace and Gromit felt like Aardman humor, and the humor in BTTF feels mostly like Gale-Zemeckis humor, and I wouldn't say any of those humor styles feel very much like each other.

[MusicallyInspired]

I can't agree with you. Telltale's aroma is smelled in all the writing for their games. Especially in the humour.

[doggans]

I'll admit that Telltale's personal style does seep through in each game, but to me it's always felt supplemental to each franchise's individual sense of humor. The vast majority of the jokes from SBCG4AP would have felt right at home in a Homestar Runner cartoon, but would have been really out of place in a Wallace and Gromit short. And vice-versa.

I don't know, maybe my frequently-selective memory is only focusing on the parts that felt right in each game. :P

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, I do moreso agree about SBCG4AP, but I always assumed that the Brothers Chaps themselves penned most of the humour, being their creation and all.

[chrisdaventry]

Quest For Glory Same Old Story RPG Style - I Wish :p

When i Played the QFG Games, i always made the Heroes up as Brothers: Sam The Thief - Conan the Fighter - Connor The Paladin - Willow The Wizard

In QFG5 i had an Idea in my Head:

Katrina Marry the Wizard and take over the Science Lab as their Laboratory and send Igor to Mordavia so he can live with that Mad Doctor and his Lady Igor.

The Paladin Marry Erana, then they travel the World doing Paladin stuff.

The Thief Marry (whats her name) and take over the Thief Guild, its still Never revealed whats so Important about that Stupid Blackbird.

The Fighter Marry Elsa and become King and Queen of Silmaria, yet i thought we Killed Toro in Spielburg (QFG1)

Anywaaayyy, wouldn't it be Cool if theres an RPG Game like Oblivion where we Play as the Children of the Characters and go to the 5 Places from the 5 Games after all the Events and go to New Places Grin

Katrina the Human (Vampire) and the Wizard gets a Daughter

Erana and the Paladin also gets a Daughter

The Fighter and Elsa gets a Son

The Thief and his Wife also gets a Son

[Sarendor]

I think that out of all of the Sierra series, the most likely to continue is actually Quest for Glory. Although it ended well with Dragon's Fire, I think Lori Ann and Corey Cole are still in the business. They still love their games, and they run the School for Heroes (http://www.theschoolforheroes.com), which is based on Quest for Glory. So even if there won't be a direct sequel to Quest for Glory, a spinoff is quite likely. And sign this petition! (http://www.questformoreglory.com/forums/index.php?showforum=175)

[Secret Fawful]

I still would love to see a modern go at a game with full-motion actors like Phantasmagoria.

This. Mystery House would also be great; I mean, it has a great premise. Although Laura Bow - The Colonel's Bequest already was sort of a update of it.

[Rather Dashing]

Much like King's Quest was inspired by The Wizard and the Princess (AKA Adventure in Serenia), and Leisure Suit Larry was a remake of Softporn Adventure.

[Raye]

Personally, my favorite Sierra series were Quest for Glory and Space Quest. I like my games to have a bit of humor to them, I guess. and Quest for Glory was so unique in the field of Adventure games because it was a hybrid RPG/Adventre. While your hero got his career pretty well wrapped up in (the sadly lacckluster) QfG 5, there's no saying someone new couldn't want to be a hero.... and I know Corey and Lori Cole have been TRYING to revive the series but were never able to secure the rights.

[henkebjorklund]

A continuation of Gabriel Knight would be a dream come through. It would also be really cool to have a new Phantasmagoria but in 3D.

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

I would love to see Telltale do a game where people and environments looked realistic (as opposed to cartoony). I just wonder if the development tool could handle the extra detail needed. It would certainly be a total departure. I hope they have no official policy about doing only family-friendly games.

[Raye]

Simo - go look at the trailers and screenshots for Jurassic Park: http://www.telltalegames.com/jurassicpark while I do think there are some problems with the animation being stiff, making them land in the Uncanny Valley, (the reason for the cartoony style in most of their other games, I suspect) they did attempt realism. And I think the locations look good

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Thanks, Raye. You are right, those graphics look pretty good, if rather muted in terms of colour and texture - but that may be just the lighting and the selection of shots. Hard to say what the effect will be like full-screen. But at the very least, they are working to expand visually in this direction, and I applaud that...

[Anakin Skywalker]

Some people are whining about how TT might change this, or change that...
BUT
If Sierra was still alive with Josh, Roberta, Jane or any of the original designers working for them making KQ games, do you really think Sierra themselves would be using the same gameplay mechanics for KQ that they did in 1990 or 1992?
Honestly? Logically?

Remember, Sierra was a company who went from the pretty hard parser to much easier, accessible point and click interface in just two years (1988-1990), and by KQ7 were using an easy one click "hotspot" interface, no narrator, easier puzzles and less dream logic; just four years after that we got KQ8.

So for those defaming TT doing KQ as the worst idea ever in the history of mankind...Do you honestly think if Sierra itself, even run by Ken Williams, was alive as a commercial entity doing adventure games that their games would be done in the same exact way as in 1990, as many seem to hope for?

[wilco64256]

The answer is clearly 42.

[Valiento]

Wasn't Ken himself moving away from adventure games? Because they weren't commercially viable? Seriously look at the list of 'productivity' crap that came out of Sierra in 1995-1996? Ok, it wasn't all crap.

It also seemed that many of the games were moving towards clones of other genres and styles there popularized at the time. Like Ken was trying to get on the bandwagon, perhaps a bit too late.

[Anakin Skywalker]

The answer is clearly 42.

The answer is clearly your game sucks.

[Sslaxx]

You may as well have just said:

Orange, said the banana.

You need to take some chill pills.

[Anakin Skywalker]

You may as well have just said:



You need to take some chill pills.

So Sierra would be doing things the same exact way as they did in 1990?

[Ignatius]

They wouldn't be doing what Telltale is doing now.

[Anakin Skywalker]

They wouldn't be doing what Telltale is doing now.

Even though they pioneered easy, low interactivity games like Phantas.
Or, something utterly different like KQ8.

[wilco64256]

That's actually pretty easy to answer because Jane still does work in the industry (see "Gray Matter") and her newer stuff still follows relatively similar mechanics to the stuff from the 90's. Things have been updated a bit as far as the actual gameplay methods and the story in Gray Matter is quite a bit deeper (though you'd probably refer to it as "emo crap" since the characters have emotions) than anything that was done in the Sierra 90's era.

[Rather Dashing]

The projected future Sierra wouldn't be doing the exact same things that Telltale is doing now, either. Also, any projected future Sierra would have to be one not sold to CUC, because it is due to the CUC sale that Sierra stopped operating in the way it did(a way that worked toward innovation, with developers that had strong creative control over personal projects).

Your logic here is the same as: The Silver Lining is different, what Sierra would have done in the future is different, therefore The Silver Lining is just like what Sierra would have made(or is just as valid).

[Anakin Skywalker]

That's actually pretty easy to answer because Jane still does work in the industry (see "Gray Matter") and her newer stuff still follows relatively similar mechanics to the stuff from the 90's. Things have been updated a bit as far as the actual gameplay methods and the story in Gray Matter is quite a bit deeper (though you'd probably refer to it as "emo crap" since the characters have emotions) than anything that was done in the Sierra 90's era.

So, Jane works for Sierra On-Line, Inc. under Ken Williams (who was obsessed with new technology and new ways of doing things) still? I wasn't aware of that.....

[Anakin Skywalker]

The projected future Sierra wouldn't be doing the exact same things that Telltale is doing now, either. Also, any projected future Sierra would have to be one not sold to CUC, because it is due to the CUC sale that Sierra stopped operating in the way it did(a way that worked toward innovation, with developers that had strong creative control over personal projects).

Your logic here is the same as: The Silver Lining is different, what Sierra would have done in the future is different, therefore The Silver Lining is just like what Sierra would have made(or is just as valid).

Actually, it was Sierra's own management (Dave Grenewetzki) that decided to move away from adventure games. This wasn't some order from CUC, Cendant or Vivendi.
Also, Ken Williams himself said he was gradually moving the company away from adventure games while he was CEO. He had Sierra's future mapped out as early as 1990 and it was to include a gradual move away from adventure games.

I know you're a TSL fanboy, but that's a big leap of logic there.

[wilco64256]

So, Jane works for Sierra On-Line, Inc. under Ken Williams (who was obsessed with new technology and new ways of doing things) still? I wasn't aware of that.....

You asked what things would be like if any of those people were around still making games. Well Jane is, and she still follows the style pretty closely, so it's a safe assumption that if everybody else were still around they'd probably be following a similar model too. Play Gray Matter (if you can stand it, poor kid having to see characters with emotions and stuff, ew gross) and then play Back to the Future. See the difference?

[Rather Dashing]

Actually, it was Sierra's own management (Dave Grenewetzki) that decided to move away from adventure games. This wasn't some order from CUC, Cendant or Vivendi.
Also, Ken Williams himself said he was gradually moving the company away from adventure games while he was CEO. He had Sierra's future mapped out as early as 1990 and it was to include a gradual move away from adventure games.
And as late as King's Quest 8, Roberta Williams was trying to make a game that was an adventure with puzzles. More action than previously, but not as much as we ended up with.

Source your quotation. I don't recall it, and so it could be anything from entirely fabricated in your world in which fan games are a looming threat to humanity, to a misunderstanding of a simple ideal for portfolio diversification.

I know you're a TSL fanboy
I don't really care for it, honestly.

but that's a big leap of logic there.
Bigger than "They would have essentially turned into the spiritual successors to their closest competitors"? I doubt it.

[Anakin Skywalker]

You asked what things would be like if any of those people were around still making games. Well Jane is, and she still follows the style pretty closely, so it's a safe assumption that if everybody else were still around they'd probably be following a similar model too. Play Gray Matter (if you can stand it, poor kid having to see characters with emotions and stuff, ew gross) and then play Back to the Future. See the difference?

The name of the thread is "If Sierra was still around...." I know your game's script seems like it was written by people who lack reading comprehension, but I didn't think this malady extended to all of TSL's stuff.
If Sierra was still around (and since they owned the rights, the designers making them would have to either contract with them as Roberta did, or be employees), Jane, in making a KQ game, would be operating under Sierra's rules. Not only that, but also...Not all designers did the games the same exact way as Jane even in the Sierra days, so, no, I doubt Josh, Roberta or Lorelei Shannon would do a Grey Matter esque game.

Having emotions in a game is one thing. Jensen's and your approach is another. But you knew that ;)

[Anakin Skywalker]

And as late as King's Quest 8, Roberta Williams was trying to make a game that was an adventure with puzzles. More action than previously, but not as much as we ended up with.

Source your quotation. I don't recall it, and so it could be anything from entirely fabricated in your world in which fan games are a looming threat to humanity, to a misunderstanding of a simple ideal for portfolio diversification.


I don't really care for it, honestly.


Bigger than "They would have essentially turned into the spiritual successors to their closest competitors"? I doubt it.

"And lastly, here's another interesting little story that amazingly no one seems to know:
By the time Sierra was sold, it was mostly a non-game company. In about 1990 I made the decision to focus away from games. This came about as a result of a discussion with Bill Gates himself. It's a bit of a long story, but we had been talking about Sierra and Microsoft doing a project together when I got bold enough to ask Bill if he would ever consider buying Sierra (I had always had tremendous respect for Microsoft, and would have teamed up with them in a minute). His answer changed Sierra's future.
People at Sierra remember this meeting well, because I came back and changed the company dramatically. Bill said that he had just noted the bankruptcy of United Artists. His contention was that they were in a hit driven business, and that ultimately in a hit driven business you run into a time of no hits. Sierra lived and died with the best seller charts. Fortunately, the charts were very good to us, but Bill's contention was they had also been good to United Artists. Ultimately, you run out of hits and die. It might take a hundred years, as was the case with United Artists, but it always happens. My goal with Sierra was to create a company that would live forever. I didn't want to be a "hit machine".
I set a new goal for Sierra to exit the hit business, and reorganized the company around a new vision to be 1/3rd education, 1/3rd productivity and 1/3rd perennial products. The first two categories should be obvious, but the last needs some explaining. My goal was to find products that could be "rev'ed" each year, such as Microsoft's Flight Simulator, or Electronic Arts Madden Football. I wanted to find an array of products that could be done better each year. Flight (and other) Simulators fit this category, as did construction sets. Products like Caesar fit this definition. The Incredible Machine.
By the time the company was sold, I had about 80-90% of revenue that matched my vision. It's not clear that I would have continued in adventure games at all. My guess is that this vision won't make me popular with adventure gamers, but it was working. My focus was on building a company that would live forever. The new owners had different ideas and scrapped many products I considered key to this vision. I wish they had at least asked where I was trying to steer the company."

http://www.adventure-treff.de/artikel/interviews/ken_williams_e.php

Also, from the same interview, on adventure games:

A-T: "Sierra was famous for all the adventures it produced over the years. What makes adventure games something special for you?"

Ken: "I always thought the future of storytelling was on the computer. I predicted that computer games would be bigger than films, and still believe there is huge potential with story-telling games - if done correctly. Watching a story from the inside is more exciting than from the outside. Phantasmagoria was a first step towards where I thought the future was. It's disappointing that we blew it with Phantasmagoria II and shot the category."

A-T: "I can't hear this question anymore, but I have to ask it: are adventures dead?"

Ken: "Asked, and answered - see above."

A-T: "But arguably they are not what they used to be. What do you think is needed to make them stronger again?"

Ken: "Imagine Super Mario quality animation, and the ability to interact with the world, but with realistic characters, and mature plots. But, a story game - not a action game, and not a puzzle game. Focus on characters and plot. That said, I would launch two different projects to reinvent the market, and my second idea might be the bigger one.
I like the idea of where infocom was going. There were the inklings of an idea in their text games - which was to focus on artificial intelligence. If the same effort were coupled with todays computers - perhaps a game could be built that is a VERY accurate simulation. I like the idea of an environment with unpredictable characters. The problem with multi-player is that most people don't like multi-player environments. I think that through having truly smart NPCs, something that could be done that gives the best of both worlds; single and multi-player games. If I personally did a game, this is the area I would focus on. The problem is that games become puzzle games at some point. It's the player versus the traps left by the designer. I have a lot of ideas on how to build credible intelligent characters."

A-T: "I'm sure you've played the LucasArts adventures. Now be honest: did you like them? What was your favorite?"

Ken: "I did play those, and thought they were at least as good as ours. I think we out-marketed LucasArts. My favourite was Loom. I thought it was an incredible product. I wanted to buy the rights from them to do a sequel, but never did."

A-T: "Console gaming or PC gaming?"

Ken: "Had I stayed at Sierra, I would have focused on multi-player (massively so) games, and consoles. The new game consoles are awesome."

[wilco64256]

so you don't like Jane Jensen games then?

[Daventry]

Actually, it was Sierra's own management (Dave Grenewetzki) that decided to move away from adventure games. This wasn't some order from CUC, Cendant or Vivendi.
Also, Ken Williams himself said he was gradually moving the company away from adventure games while he was CEO. He had Sierra's future mapped out as early as 1990 and it was to include a gradual move away from adventure games.

I know you're a TSL fanboy, but that's a big leap of logic there.

Dave Grenewetzki was president of Sierra AFTER it was sold. I don't recall off the top of my head whether the owner was CUC, Cendant, or Vivendi, but in any case it doesn't make sense to separate "Sierra's own management" and "Sierra's owner" in the way that you did. Grenewetzki was reporting to a higher-up, either at CUC, Cendant, or Vivendi. The fact that Sierra was owned by someone else means that they were no longer an independent company with autonomous management. There are at least half a dozen Ken Williams interviews out there supporting this, not to mention the whole story with Mask of Eternity's development cycle.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Dave Grenewetzki was president of Sierra AFTER it was sold. I don't recall off the top of my head whether the owner was CUC, Cendant, or Vivendi, but in any case it doesn't make sense to separate "Sierra's own management" and "Sierra's owner" in the way ythat ou did. Grenewetzki was reporting to a higher-up, either at CUC, Cendant, or Vivendi. The fact that Sierra was owned by someone else means that they were no longer an independent company with autonomous management. There are at least half a dozen Ken Williams interviews out there supporting this fact.

It doesn't mean, however, that EVERY SINGLE DECISION MADE by the CEO post 1996 was actually made by CUC, Cendant or Vivendi.

It was Vivendi. Grenewetzki came on board with Sierra in mid-1998 while they were still owned by Cendant. They were sold to Havas in 1998, which was a subsidiary of Vivendi. Grenewetzki decided to stop adventure games sometime in either late 1998 or early 1999 and closed off 4 studios as well as stopped the production of Sierra's magazine, InterAction--All on the same day.

SQ7 was cancelled around October 1997, but the news was given to Scott Murphy on Christmas Eve 1998. None of Sierra's management was keen on adventure games starting around the mid 1990s. Ken was saying as early as 1996 while CEO that the adventure game genre was dead and it was time to move on.

[Daventry]

It doesn't mean, however, that EVERY SINGLE DECISION MADE by the CEO post 1996 was actually made by CUC, Cendant or Vivendi.

Now I never said that, did I? What's with all the aggression? I was just pointing out that there were definitely different factors at play in the late 90s, and I didn't think your comment acknowledged that.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Now I never said that, did I? What's with all the aggression? I was just pointing out that there were definitely different factors at play in the late 90s, and I didn't think your comment acknowledged that.

Different factors? Sure.
But there was a growing anti-adventure game sentiment at Sierra even before the sale to CUC, while Ken was on board. The tide of the larger game industry was turning on adventure games in the wake of Wolfenstein, Doom, Tomb Raider Quake.

[Irishmile]

Yeah.... KQ became an action RPG and Police Quest became SWAT a strategy game.... Sierra was changing... as was Lucasarts... Who can really say where they would have ended up... its possible we would be all here talking about a TTG kings quest game commissioned by Sierra just like Lucasarts did with Monkey Island.

[Daventry]

Yeah.... KQ became an action RPG and Police Quest became SWAT a strategy game.... Sierra was changing... as was Lucasarts... Who can really say where they would have ended up... its possible we would be all here talking about a TTG kings quest game commissioned by Sierra just like Lucasarts did with Monkey Island.

I agree with you here. It's possible that Sierra would have gotten out of the adventure genre regardless of the owner because the marketplace itself was changing. But I like to think that maybe King's Quest VIII would have been a different game if Sierra hadn't been sold, plus maybe Space Quest VII and the next Leisure Suit Larry (and Torin's Passage?) may have been commissioned. If these products had done well, then maybe the marketplace would have left room for adventure games? Just optimistic speculation of course.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I agree with you here. It's possible that Sierra would have gotten out of the adventure genre regardless of the owner because the marketplace itself was changing. But I like to think that maybe King's Quest VIII would have been a different game if Sierra hadn't been sold, plus maybe Space Quest VII and the next Leisure Suit Larry (and Torin's Passage?) may have been commissioned. If these products had done well, then maybe the marketplace would have left room for adventure games? Just speculation of course.

Adventure games weren't doing well period. Not just for Sierra, but well enough for any big company. Which is why even now the only companies designing them are smaller companies.

Ken Williams, 1996 interview (while still running Sierra): http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19970524212628/http://www.gameslice.com/interview/ken.html

Geoff: Speaking of adventure games, from what I've heard you have practically declared the "adventure game is dead," at least as we currently know it. Do you think the market has changed that drastically over the past decade to a point where users no longer want icons and huge blurbs of text?

Ken: "I absolutely do. I am proud of the adventure games we've just released, like Rama, Larry 7 and Lighthouse, but, I see these as the end of a whole generation for Sierra, and the industry. We, and others, have evolved the adventure game to the point where you just can't do further evolution. We've pushed this horse as far as it can go. It's time for revolution -- not evolution. I compare this time to when Sierra started making adventure games with graphics, and Infocom thought we were idiots. At that time, all adventure games were text based. The idea of an adventure with graphics seemed silly. Infocom didn't recognize that the market was changing and kept flogging a dead horse -- which resulted in them dying. I think the change we need to make is at least as radical as the one we made over a decade ago. Once again, there are those who are in love with status quo and point at how well we are doing. I should point out that Infocom had 8 of the top 10 selling products within 12 months of their bankruptcy. We tried live action to see if that represented the future, and had our biggest hit ever with Phantasmagoria -- but, I'm not convinced. There are things about live action I like and things I don't -- maybe this is where we'll settle out for the next decade, but I don't think so. I think what Roberta is doing for King’s Quest 8 is more likely to represent the future."

[MusicallyInspired]

How can we know they wouldn't go in a better direction than Telltale is taking it? I was excited with where Roberta took MOE and I was quite interested to see how else King's Quest would innovate the gaming industry in the future (it was always innovating everything with every game!). Sadly, it fell apart. But we'll never know now will we? What we do know is what kind of games Telltale have made in the past, what they've said in the past, their design philosophy and business model, what they're doing now, and with that, a pretty good idea of what they're going to do later on. That's a lot more substantial than "what would Sierra have done."

All I know is what I like and how I like it. Sierra pretty much always brought that most of the time. It declined a little after 95/96 but I always pictured that as a natural dip that every creative force takes now and then. There's no reason why Sierra couldn't have upped their game again by taking things into a better direction. Telltale aren't doing this. They aren't innovating anything. They're not taking any risks. They're not doing anything DIFFERENT at all. Just making a bunch of movies with different titles that are quite true to their original names, but have zero gameplay experiences. Excellent stories, but no gameplay. And this is all intentional. With King's Quest, half of the tone and the feel of the series was the gameplay. This is what worries me.

[wilco64256]

They're not doing anything DIFFERENT at all. Just making a bunch of movies with different titles that are quite true to their original names, but have zero gameplay experiences. Excellent stories, but no gameplay. With King's Quest, half of the tone and the feel of the series was the gameplay. This is what worries me.

That's the thought I've been trying to assemble. Telltale has a proven formula that works perfectly for them so they don't really have a whole lot of reason to change it. I think that's where the concern about KQ comes from for many of us, we are hoping that Telltale will do something different from their norm for this game, but they're pretty predictable so far and their pattern doesn't look to be heading in a direction that hardcore KQ fans would be expecting.

[Anakin Skywalker]

How can we know they wouldn't go in a better direction than Telltale is taking it? I was excited with where Roberta took MOE and I was quite interested to see how else King's Quest would innovate the gaming industry in the future (it was always innovating everything with every game!). Sadly, it fell apart. But we'll never know now will we? What we do know is what kind of games Telltale have made in the past, what they've said in the past, their design philosophy and business model, what they're doing now, and with that, a pretty good idea of what they're going to do later on. That's a lot more substantial than "what would Sierra have done."

All I know is what I like and how I like it. Sierra pretty much always brought that most of the time. It declined a little after 95/96 but I always pictured that as a natural dip that every creative force takes now and then. There's no reason why Sierra couldn't have upped their game again by taking things into a better direction. Telltale aren't doing this. They aren't innovating anything. They're not taking any risks. They're not doing anything DIFFERENT at all. Just making a bunch of movies with different titles that are quite true to their original names, but have zero gameplay experiences. Excellent stories, but no gameplay. And this is all intentional. With King's Quest, half of the tone and the feel of the series was the gameplay. This is what worries me.

Considering in one of the last major interviews, where he addressed what he'd do with adventure games if he was still in charge of Sierra, he said Phantas (an interactive movie) was a big step in the right direction.

[MusicallyInspired]

You know, this whole debacle might just make me appreciate even KQ7! lol

[wilco64256]

Absolutely Phantasmagoria was a step in the right direction, I just don't know that the systems were in place for things to keep moving nicely that way. I look at a game like Heavy Rain as the final destination for the path that Phantasmagoria was on.

[Anakin Skywalker]

You know, this whole debacle might just make me appreciate even KQ7! lol

Yeah, don't even bother playing the demo of this game.
Too bad so sad that AGDI didn't get the license. Haha.

[Daventry]

Adventure games weren't doing well period. Not just for Sierra, but well enough for any big company. Which is why even now the only companies designing them are smaller companies.

Ken Williams, 1996 interview (while still running Sierra): http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19970524212628/http://www.gameslice.com/interview/ken.html

Geoff: Speaking of adventure games, from what I've heard you have practically declared the "adventure game is dead," at least as we currently know it. Do you think the market has changed that drastically over the past decade to a point where users no longer want icons and huge blurbs of text?

Ken: "I absolutely do. I am proud of the adventure games we've just released, like Rama, Larry 7 and Lighthouse, but, I see these as the end of a whole generation for Sierra, and the industry. We, and others, have evolved the adventure game to the point where you just can't do further evolution. We've pushed this horse as far as it can go. It's time for revolution -- not evolution. I compare this time to when Sierra started making adventure games with graphics, and Infocom thought we were idiots. At that time, all adventure games were text based. The idea of an adventure with graphics seemed silly. Infocom didn't recognize that the market was changing and kept flogging a dead horse -- which resulted in them dying. I think the change we need to make is at least as radical as the one we made over a decade ago. Once again, there are those who are in love with status quo and point at how well we are doing. I should point out that Infocom had 8 of the top 10 selling products within 12 months of their bankruptcy. We tried live action to see if that represented the future, and had our biggest hit ever with Phantasmagoria -- but, I'm not convinced. There are things about live action I like and things I don't -- maybe this is where we'll settle out for the next decade, but I don't think so. I think what Roberta is doing for King’s Quest 8 is more likely to represent the future."

Keep in mind that this was written when Robera still had full control over the game (at least that's how Ken's comments make it seem). So it may have turned out differently, perhaps invigorating the declining genre instead.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Keep in mind that this was written when Robera still had full control over the game (at least that's how Ken's comments make it seem). So it may have turned out differently, perhaps invigorating the declining genre instead.

It was still going to be 3D. There was still going to be action and violence in KQ8, just perhaps not to the extent of the released game--She wanted there to be violence. The plot and dialogue was written by her and intended to be more like JRR Tolkien or Malory than Disney. The main character was still going to be Connor. KQ fans still would've hated it as even in her vision, it still deviated from the norm in many ways. The major differences between what Roberta invisioned and what came out seemed to have been:

2 whole worlds/levels (cut for budget and technology)
Full exploration of Castle Daventry in full (cut due to time and the fact that it wasn't really necessary)
More violence.

Also...That interview was Dec '96. At that point, he says in the interview, the game wasn't even playable yet. So it would've probably been another year or so. I think in the InterAction issue from Fall 1996, they said KQ8 had a tentative date of Christmas 1997. By that time, Quake had come out; Tomb Raider had come out; Both had revolutionized the industry.

Consider that plenty of great adventure games (in many different variations on the genre) came out between 1996 and 1999 like The Last Express, Blade Runner, Grim Fandango, Broken Sword, LSL 7, Riven (and all of the Myst clones of the era), QF5, Fable and many others, and none of them were big enough hits to save the genre. It wasn't that they were bad games, but the adventure game fanbase was small compared to the newer, more "SATISFACTION NOW" action/RPG adventure gamer fanbase.

Roberta talked about this once. She blamed the fall of the adventure genre on different demographics buying computers--demographics of people who were less willing to take hours thinking out a game or spending hours trying to solve one puzzle.

[Daventry]

It was still going to be 3D. There was still going to be action and violence in KQ8, just perhaps not to the extent of the released game--She wanted there to be violence. The plot and dialogue was written by her and intended to be more like JRR Tolkien or Malory than Disney. The main character was still going to be Connor. KQ fans still would've hated it as even in her vision, it still deviated from the norm in many ways. The major differences between what Roberta invisioned and what came out seemed to have been:

2 whole worlds/levels (cut for budget and technology)
Full exploration of Castle Daventry in full (cut due to time and the fact that it wasn't really necessary)
More violence.

I disagree. I think Roberta's original vision was vastly different from what was released. As I understand it, combat was added in later and was Mark Seibert's idea, not hers. There were three completely different designs for MOE (i.e. two full re-designs). Who's to say how the original concept developed to completion would have turned out? Some of the earliest screenshots released (from Interaction) made it seem more like a traditional adventure game than anything else.

[Daventry]

It was still going to be 3D. There was still going to be action and violence in KQ8, just perhaps not to the extent of the released game--She wanted there to be violence. The plot and dialogue was written by her and intended to be more like JRR Tolkien or Malory than Disney. The main character was still going to be Connor. KQ fans still would've hated it as even in her vision, it still deviated from the norm in many ways. The major differences between what Roberta invisioned and what came out seemed to have been:

2 whole worlds/levels (cut for budget and technology)
Full exploration of Castle Daventry in full (cut due to time and the fact that it wasn't really necessary)
More violence.

I don't think you can speak for all KQ fans, because you certainly don't speak for me.

[MusicallyInspired]

I think Anakin likes to pick and choose the information that suits his opinion most. He's the one, if I'm not mistaken, who pointed out all those facts about MOE and how Roberta lost control eventually and made a bargain to keep her name on the box. He knows very well all this information, he just uses it as he sees fit.

Like I said before, I loved the idea of where MOE was ending up. I was excited to play it. I like MOE as it is now too, but I imagine I would have loved it better if Roberta had seen the whole thing through to the end with full creative control.

[Daventry]

I think Anakin likes to pick and choose the information that suits his opinion most. He's the one, if I'm not mistaken, who pointed out all those facts about MOE and how Roberta lost control eventually and made a bargain to keep her name on the box. He knows very well all this information, he just uses it as he sees fit.

Like I said before, I loved the idea of where MOE was ending up. I was excited to play it. I like MOE as it is now too, but I imagine I would have loved it better if Roberta had seen the whole thing through to the end with full creative control.

I was thinking this myself. It's well known fact now that Roberta lost control of the game. You know this, I know this. So how can you say her original vision wasn't that different?

[wilco64256]

I would love to see Mask of Eternity redone as a more standard point/click game with less action elements and more of the classic adventure feeling to it. The open exploration was nice, but I felt like it was hindered a bit since most of the time I was looking for stuff to kill rather than puzzles to solve.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I disagree. I think Roberta's original vision was vastly different from what was released. As I understand it, combat was added in later and was Mark Seibert's idea, not hers. There were three completely different designs for MOE (i.e. two full re-designs). Who's to say how the original concept developed to completion would have turned out? Some of the earliest screenshots released (from Interaction) made it seem more like a traditional adventure game than anything else.

The earliest info from mid 1996 (from the same InterAction interview I think you're referring to) mentions combat and has the famous screenshot of the Hydra in the Daventry lake (which was cut). Roberta always intended there to be action...Just the AMOUNT of action is what changed.

Mark Seibert definitely had to do with there being MORE action, I agree with that....But Roberta herself seemed to want action in the game, and even defended the idea of violence and killing in KQ game in a huge post on the MoE boards in July 1997 in response to internet critics.

According to Talkspot interviews from 1998, there were three designs because a lot of the game had to be chopped, changed and rearranged etc due to budget and technology concerns. Some of the stuff Roberta wanted to do just wasn't technologically feasible at the time.

Plus, the game's design process was disorganized. The way game's engine was being designed by one division of Sierra (Dynamix), while the actual game was being designed by Sierra itself in Bellevue, WA. And Dynamix ended up being way behind schedule which cost time and money and led to stuff being cut. It was done very haphazardly.

[Daventry]

The earliest info from mid 1996 (from the same InterAction interview I think you're referring to) mentions combat and has the famous screenshot of the Hydra in the Daventry lake (which was cut). Roberta always intended there to be action...Just the AMOUNT of action is what changed.

Mark Seibert definitely had to do with there being MORE action, I agree with that....But Roberta herself seemed to want action in the game, and even defended the idea of violence and killing in KQ game in a huge post on the MoE boards in July 1997 in response to internet critics.

According to Talkspot interviews from 1998, there were three designs because a lot of the game had to be chopped, changed and rearranged etc due to budget and technology concerns. Some of the stuff Roberta wanted to do just wasn't technologically feasible at the time.

Plus, the game's design process was disorganized. The way game's engine was being designed by one division of Sierra (Dynamix), while the actual game was being designed by Sierra itself in Bellevue, WA. And Dynamix ended up being way behind schedule which cost time and money and led to stuff being cut. It was done very haphazardly.

Whatever man, to each his own opinion.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm tellin' ya....ignore list. It'll make your stay here a whole lot more pleasant I'm sure.

[Valiento]

I disagree. I think Roberta's original vision was vastly different from what was released. As I understand it, combat was added in later and was Mark Seibert's idea, not hers. There were three completely different designs for MOE (i.e. two full re-designs). Who's to say how the original concept developed to completion would have turned out? Some of the earliest screenshots released (from Interaction) made it seem more like a traditional adventure game than anything else.
Actually by the time hey were showing pictures they were were already showing enemies many of which made it into the released game. The non-combat stage of development was apparently back in early 1995. They we're already discussing combat by the time of the pictures and InterAction discussed the game.

Listen to the talkspot interviews it's there that Mark and Roberta claim it was Mark's idea to add combat originally. Roberta initially wasn't going to have combat. But Mark thought things were too empty between puzzles, nothing to do, nothing to interact with. He suggested the combat (and potions/weapons) to make things more interesting. Roberta claims she questioned it at first and had to be convinced to include it.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Actually by the time hey were showing pictures they were were already showing enemies many of which made it into the released game. The non-combat stage of development was apparently back in early 1995. They we're already discussing combat by the time of the pictures and InterAction discussed the game.

Yup.
Valiento, do you know if any info came out in magazines about KQ8 before the Fall '96 InterAction? i mean other gaming magazines?

Also..I had this magazine way back in 1997 (I was in first grade and was showing KQ8 to friends) which had a long article/preview about KQ8 and had the famous Hydra picure. It had the picture of the swordfight from KQ6. I wish I could remember the magazine.

[Daventry]

Actually by the time hey were showing pictures they were were already showing enemies many of which made it into the released game. The non-combat stage of development was apparently back in early 1995. They we're already discussing combat by the time of the pictures and InterAction discussed the game.

Listen to the talkspot interviews it's there that Mark and Roberta claim it was Mark's idea to add combat originally. Roberta initially wasn't going to have combat. But Mark thought things were too empty between puzzles, nothing to do, nothing to interact with. He suggested the combat (and potions/weapons) to make things more interesting. Roberta claims she questioned it at first and had to be convinced to include it.

I don't think the game was even in development in early 1995, as Phantasmagoria hadn't even been released yet, and King's Quest VII was still a new title.

Regardless of when combat was added, my main point is that it's not in our position to say how Roberta's original vision compared with the game that was released. I just know that the original vision was different. I remember, for example, that the Swamp Witch was going to be an actual, interactive character instead of just a "boss" you have to kill in order to progress in the game.

[Valiento]

Actually Roberta discusses how she was already planning for Mask while working on Phant, just before it's release during one of the interviews. It was mostly just brainstorming at that point.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Actually Roberta discusses how she was already planning for Mask while working on Phant, just before it's release during one of the interviews. It was mostly just brainstorming at that point.


Right, for example she had already decided it was going to be 3D as early as 1994 or 1995. Phantasmagoria came out in July 1995 and it was probably finished for a couple of months (except for post production) which gives her much of 1995 to be thinking up a new KQ.
She said KQ8 was a "three year project" and it came out in 1998 so it started development in 1995.

[Daventry]

Right, for example she had already decided it was going to be 3D as early as 1994 or 1995. Phantasmagoria came out in July 1995 and it was probably finished for a couple of months (except for post production) which gives her much of 1995 to be thinking up a new KQ.
She said KQ8 was a "three year project" and it came out in 1998 so it started development in 1995.

Yes, three year project exactly. That's late 1995 to late 1998. Not early 1995.

[Daventry]

Actually Roberta discusses how she was already planning for Mask while working on Phant, just before it's release during one of the interviews. It was mostly just brainstorming at that point.

I'd like to see your source please.


Anyway, I've said all I'm going to regarding this topic. There's no point quibbling about when combat was added or when development began (that's not the main issue I was targetting anyway). As I've said already on multiple occasions, you weren't there and neither was I. Plus we're talking about how the project was intended to be (i.e. in Roberta mind). Unless you're Roberta or have the ability to get inside her head, there's no point in further speculation.

See you in other, more worthwhile topics.

[Valiento]

It's mentioned in an article in InterAction don't rembember the issue off the top if my head. I think it was in article concerning Phant as I remember.

I think there is a difference between brainstorming ideas
for a new game and actual hard development. Talk is cheap, that doesn't mean artists and programmers were out in force.

[Daventry]

Ok, but Anakin's original claim was that Roberta's original vision was essentially the same as the product that was released. Do you, given all the information that's out there regarding MOE and its development, honestly believe that?

I know I said I wouldn't be posting here, but I just wanted to ask you for your candid opinion before I considered this conversation closed.

[Valiento]

I don't know what her 'original' vision is, I think the vision changed several times, and she adapted things to the circumstances as she went.

The game went through three main development phases, and its unclear which part of that you could consider her "original ideas". We can only really discuss idividual ideas, and what her and other designers on the project have said about it individual changes.

The witch thing.... It was apparently just a scripted cutscene event, but was never completed. It would have apparently still lead to a boss battle once inside the fortress ('she would have lured you in'). So all they really did was move the fight outside. Granted more background, even noninteractive, interaction, for the witch would have been nice.

I also don't think some of the stuff we know were her original ideas were necessarily good ideas... I have to agree with Mark Seibert that filling in large open areas of empty space with combat to make things more interesting, was a good idea. Others argue that combat should have been left out completely... But I think Mark's reasoning is valid, empty space would have been boring..

[Daventry]

Cool, thanks for explaining your viewpoint. By "original vision" I mean what Roberta intended the game to be before she was pressured to make changes/before other people started added their own ideas to the project (what Ken openly describes happened). I've never, ever heard that the additional witch parts was just a cut scene - I actually talked to Roberta on the phone during the Talkspot specials and asked about that specifically, and she explained that there was much more she wanted to do with the character but it got cut for one reason or another. But anyway, it seems you agree that the vision changed to accomodate the circumstances. (i.e. the product she set out to make was not the product that was delivered). That was my whole point to begin with.

[Valiento]

Mark Seibert: Well, it was in the design at one time"
"Roberta Williams:The swamp witch turned into a beautiful lady? I don't remember that in the design?
"Mark Seibert: Remember in the design, she was going to be like this siren, she was going to be this beautiful woman, that if you followed her up into the top of the tower, she would..."
Roberta Williams:"Oh that's right."
"Mark Seibert: "That was a long time ago"
Roberta Williams:"That was long...that was like two designs before the design that we...I tell you...I didn't remember that, that is amazing...little bit of trivia that is true."
"Actually I think if we could go back into the design, I think I would advocate doing more with her. I think she was much more fun character. I think I would have liked to have been able to see her inside her castle, and to do some things with her in there. Which we had originally planned, but it's one of those things. It's always painful to see the leftover design that gets left on the cutting room floor, and you just think about that. The Swamp Witch is real fun.

Most of her answer in the talkspot interview was basically made in 'hindsight', she couldn't even remember what they initially had planned to do with the character, suggesting it wasn't that important.

Other sources such as the "making of video", and a few offhand references in the magazines, suggest she would have just been another boss, once she "exposed herself". Granted we don't really know what if anything happened between her moving from the entrance to the "top of the tower", where she "exposed herself". But there is little evidence, of any puzzles involved.

I don't remember if she added anything more about it in the third Talkspot interview... Shame that episode is lost...

By "original vision" I mean what Roberta intended the game to be before she was pressured to make changes/before other people started added their own ideas to the project (what Ken openly describes happened).

Seriously we don't have much idea what she was "pressured into doing", other than a few offhand comments that she didn't necessarily want combat early on, and Mark Seibert convinced her to include it. An idea I completely agree with Mark Seibert on.

She was also convinced that some things were just not feasible with the limitations of the technology they had, especially when Dynamix failed to deliver the advanced and updated game engine on time, that they needed to make the actual playable game. They were forced to then make a new engine from scratch, which really threw things off (and caused quite a few things to be cut for time). They couldn't actually go about scripting until they had an actual game engine. Most of what you see screenshots on early phase was actually just a level editing software for the Dynamix 3Space engine (but it lacked scripting, or interativity).

[Daventry]

"I think I would have liked to have been able to see her inside her castle, and to do some things with her in there. Which we had originally planned, but it's one of those things. It's always painful to see the leftover design that gets left on the cutting room floor, and you just think about that. The Swamp Witch is real fun."

I think this supports exactly what I'm saying.

Regarding the changes she was forced into/loss of control, read Ken's thoughts on the game. It has been posted here somewhere.

Ok, see you in other topics, for real this time. :)

[Valiento]

Yes, but that comment seems to be made in 'hindsight', it doesn't support if that was the ideas she had initially. She's claiming if she could go back to that part, this is "what she would like to do". This doesn't mean that is what she intially would have 'liked to do' when they were developing that part (she couldn't even rememember what they had initially planned, as Mark had to remind her, that she was going to lead him up to the top of the tower).

The problem is, when it comes to most of the later interviews, about what coulda shoulda happened, everything is in 'hindsight'.

Especially Ken's thoughts on the matter, is seems even more colored with hindsight. His comments are extremely broad, lack specifics. Mark Seibert and Roberta have been far more open about specifics concerning problems during the game's development, and most of that openess appeared in the Talkspot interviews.

In some cases Ken's comments and Mark's and Roberta's comments do not mesh... I don't want to accuse any of them of lieing, but Mark was far more specific about particulars, and doesn't seem to have a reason to 'lie', he has never actually tried to defend the weaknesses in the game (and has been open about them, and in many cases apologizing). Roberta herself on the other hand almost went out of her way to happily defend the game (see talkspot inteviews, JustAdventure interviews, etc), although she was open about problems during the development. She was especially adament about defending the position that it was 'her game' (though some questioned her on that position). But I wouldn't accuse her of lieing either... It's just alot more complicated than Ken's comments would make it.

[Rather Dashing]

Most of her answer in the talkspot interview was basically made in 'hindsight', she couldn't even remember what they initially had planned to do with the character, suggesting it wasn't that important.
I don't think not remembering something suggests anything other than she didn't remember something. I can't remember the name of my best friend in gradeschool or the last name of my best friend from middle school, but that doesn't mean that wasn't important to me at the time.

[Valiento]

My point though, is almost everything we know about that event that's concrete, comes from Mark Seibert explaining it in interviews. See the making of video for another example. He is the one that seems to suggest that Connor just follows her up to the top of the tower were she exposes herself, and then Connor is forced to fight her (it fits that she "did more than just be killed outside the tower", and "seen doing things inside of her tower" to reach the top, but its a far cry from being 'extra puzzles' to solve).

Actually, come to think of it, that would put her in the same place as the Henchman is in the final game. So its possible they replaced the witch encounter with the Henchman up there.

Seriously if you forgot the name of your best friend just months after spending time with them for 'three years', that's pretty bad! This interview seriously occured only months after the game's release (the game was in development three years before that). That's some short term memory loss there!

[thom-22]

Early today, while reading through the historical stuff some of you have been posting, I went to Wikipedia's page on Sierra to check something. The second paragraph of the intro seemed rather odd. I just checked again and the prank has been fixed (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sierra_Entertainment&action=historysubmit&diff=418082438&oldid=418081244), but it really cracked me up when I saw it. :D

[Roivas]

I would like to imagine what it would be like if Sierra was still around but after the abomination that is King's Quest 8 was shoved into my unsuspecting hands I say that the company's death was completely justified.

As long as Telltalle makes certain to do the exact opposite of that horrible game they will have my attention.

[Valiento]

Roberta Williams (Talkspot): "I decided King's Quest was going to go 3-d while I was working on Phantasmagoria. That was in, around 1994, maybe 95, somewhere around there. It was about the time Doom came out, and it just made a splash. Everybody was playing Doom. Other 3-d games were beginning to come out around that time too. It just became clear that computer games were going to be going 3-d. I pretty much made up my mind during the development of Phantasmagoria. I knew I was going to be doing the next King's Quest."

This is interesting, another one of the original ideas for KQ8 that was nixed during development;

"Mark and I entertained the idea of making it multiplayer also, but that was nixed. It was like, well were doning 3-d, and that's enough, you know, for now. Maybe Multiplayer later."

"When I started development on King's Quest Mask of Eternity, we also decided, we were thinking at the time to make it multiplayer, and also 3-d, but we dropped the multiplayer aspect of it. It was just too much to try to develop, and also develop 3-d."


So one of the original ideas that was cut, was that Mask have ended up being a multi-player game (rather than single-player, or in addition to). That would have made it even more different than the older KQ than it turned out to be in the actual release!

[wilco64256]

LOL gotta love Wikipedia, that's really funny.

[DAISHI]

Har har har!

[jcytam]

If I may only choose one, then no need to think twice. Definitely GK4, with Jane Jenson as the writer. I have recently replayed GK3 (again), I think a GK4 in 3D is a good continuity to the series. Episodic format will also work great for a suspense thriller, with a cliff hanger at the end of each episode. I know that Telltale's strength so far is on some light-hearted adventures, but I have confident that they have the ability to do more serious titles just as great. In sum, bring back GK PLEASE!!!

[zounds!]

Space Quest is probably my number 1 pick. After that I think both conquests games, I think they were pretty underrated overall, longbow in particular was awesome.

[Daventry]

Space Quest is probably my number 1 pick. After that I think both conquests games, I think they were pretty underrated overall, longbow in particular was awesome.

I agree, I think Longbow belongs up there with KQ and QfG, but sadly it never seems to get its due.

[wilco64256]

If I may only choose one, then no need to think twice. Definitely GK4, with Jane Jenson as the writer. I have recently replayed GK3 (again), I think a GK4 in 3D is a good continuity to the series. Episodic format will also work great for a suspense thriller, with a cliff hanger at the end of each episode. I know that Telltale's strength so far is on some light-hearted adventures, but I have confident that they have the ability to do more serious titles just as great. In sum, bring back GK PLEASE!!!

With Telltale's approach of making the games as easy and casual as possible, I'd be more apprehensive about them taking on a Gabriel Knight or Police Quest game than the other Sierra franchises. The GK games in particular were always meant to make people think more and work harder to figure out what was going on and advance the plot. I really don't think I'd like to see that type of gameplay simplifed to the level of Back to the Future or Jurassic Park.

[antoniomsg]

What I'd really like to see is a revival of the Space Quest series, specially if they could get Scott Murphy to be in the project.

Also, it'd be even better if they could make it an option to play parser-style instead of point-and-click, or have an option to have both.

[GuybrushWilco]

I liked both Conquests, but I actually preferred Camelot :).

[JonathanY]

Wow. I guess my favourite options will be a new Quest for Glory game with the Coles or a new Leisure Suit Larry with al Lowe (otherwise, don't do it!) Will also "settle" for a new Gabriel Knight game with Jane Jensen or a new Space Quest with Scott Murphy. Just bring the original designers!

[GuybrushWilco]

Wow. I guess my favourite options will be a new Quest for Glory game with the Coles or a new Leisure Suit Larry with al Lowe (otherwise, don't do it!) Will also "settle" for a new Gabriel Knight game with Jane Jensen or a new Space Quest with Scott Murphy. Just bring the original designers!

Why does no one mention Mark Crowe? :). I'd like to see any of the old Sierra people involved.

[MusicallyInspired]

Nobody mentions Mark Crowe because Scott Murphy had a few things to say about him in his latest interview which sort of painted a negative picture about his character. Scott Murphy was the one who initially created Space Quest anyway and Mark's solo work on SQ5, while good, was no where near as good as the others with both the Two Guys (well, in my opinion anyway).

[GuybrushWilco]

Nobody mentions Mark Crowe because Scott Murphy had a few things to say about him in his latest interview which sort of painted a negative picture about his character. Scott Murphy was the one who initially created Space Quest anyway and Mark's solo work on SQ5, while good, was no where near as good as the others with both the Two Guys (well, in my opinion anyway).

Well, regardless of whatever his character may or may not be, he did contribute great things to the Space Quest games :).

[MusicallyInspired]

Seeing as Scott is the father of Space Quest it's almost an affront to fans to have Mark Crowe involved in an SQ related game after Scott had such things to say about him.

[Radogol]

Seeing as Scott is the father of Space Quest it's almost an affront to fans to have Mark Crowe involved in an SQ related game after Scott had such things to say about him.

I don't agree with your views but I enjoy your music a lot. An artist can be an asshole and still produce good art. Moreover, neither you, nor Chris, Britney or Stijn created King's Quest, yet you managed to nail the tone and create a good game that's true to the originals. Just saying ;)

[Irishmile]

LOL I see what you did there.

[GuybrushWilco]

LOL I see what you did there.

Well Scott Murphy and Mark Crowe are co-creators of the series, so no no matter who had the initial idea, they both created it together :). It would be nice to see Josh Mandel back too.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't agree with your views but I enjoy your music a lot. An artist can be an asshole and still produce good art. Moreover, neither you, nor Chris, Britney or Stijn created King's Quest, yet you managed to nail the tone and create a good game that's true to the originals. Just saying ;)

Did....I just get called an asshole? :confused: ;)

That is a good point. Though, the main difference is that Scott doesn't like Mark whereas I don't think Roberta or Josh really have anything personal against AGDI or any other fan group. I never really enjoyed Mark's view of Space Quest as much as Scott's anyway. His EGA backgrounds were fantastic, though.

[Radogol]

Did....I just get called an asshole? :confused: ;)

Of course not :) I was mostly referring to a quote by Brian K. Vaughan who once said "I, for example, am a pompous asshole, but my comics are genius!"

Though, the main difference is that Scott doesn't like Mark whereas I don't think Roberta or Josh really have anything personal against AGDI or any other fan group.

Sure, but again, Murphy's opinions are based purely on Crowe's personality, not his skills as a designer. Besides, we haven't heard Crowe's side of the story.

[MusicallyInspired]

I know that. I'm just pointing out how some fans would react.

[ScreamingFalcon]

Love how someone claimed Sierra attempted to contact Al Lowe multiple times to help with Magna Cum Laude, even though he says he never heard from anyone until after the game was done. I just changed that.

[Silverwolfpet]

Early today, while reading through the historical stuff some of you have been posting, I went to Wikipedia's page on Sierra to check something. The second paragraph of the intro seemed rather odd. I just checked again and the prank has been fixed (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sierra_Entertainment&action=historysubmit&diff=418082438&oldid=418081244), but it really cracked me up when I saw it. :D

Hahaha! Awesome! :D Good find!

[Anakin Skywalker]

I always felt Sierra was like the Disney of the PC game industry. They, like Disney during the days of Walt, made the customer feel like he or she was part of the "Sierra Family."

Sierra, especially Sierra around 1988-1994, or so, was a company which had a certain magic and level of creativity that I don't think any company has, or ever will, live up to.

[antoniomsg]

I do believe Lucasarts equaled or even surpassed Sierra in their heyday.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I do believe Lucasarts equaled or even surpassed Sierra in their heyday.

Their games may have been better developed plotwise or even puzzle-wise, I don't know, but I do know I really hated their interface. The LA interface turned me off from a lot of their games, even games I wanted to like such as Fate of Atlantis.

Also, their games' music had NOTHING on Golden Age Sierra game music.

[Brainiac]

Also, their games' music had NOTHING on Golden Age Sierra game music.

You do have to give credit to the iMUSE system, though.

[Anakin Skywalker]

You do have to give credit to the iMUSE system, though.

I just read about it...I have to be frank, I don't quite understand it or what was so innovative about. But I'm not very keen on tech stuff, though.

[MusicallyInspired]

iMuse was indeed PHENOMENAL. Wathch the Monkey Island 2 Spceial Edition feature if you want to learn more about it. They explain the system and how they went about reproducing it digitally in easy-to-understand terms. I wish they would have utilised it a lot more after Monkey 2. The only games that really benefitted from it after that were non-adventures. Games like Dark Forces and Tie Fighter did very well with it.

But despite this, the classic Sierra soundtracks were always far better than LucasArts soundtracks (at least up to about 95/96).

[doggans]

I do believe Lucasarts equaled or even surpassed Sierra in their heyday.

There are a lot of LucasArts games I like better than Sierra games, but as far as technology/graphics/etc goes, Sierra was always several steps ahead of LucasArts.

You do have to give credit to the iMUSE system, though.

Oh, absolutely. Walking around Woodtick is one of my favorite musical experiences in any piece of entertainment.

[Armakuni]

Oh man Police Quest seemed so gritty and real when I was a kid.

Haha yeah, actually because of nostalgia, I still somewhat get that feeling when playing the games today :D

[Scnew]

But despite this, the classic Sierra soundtracks were always far better than LucasArts soundtracks (at least up to about 95/96).

I assume that you're correct because MI 1 and 2 have the old soundtracks I still remember, while I still find myself humming the Space Quest and Quest for Glory themes to this day.

[Armakuni]

The one Lucasfilm game theme I really like, equally to many great Sierra tracks, is the Monkey Island opening tune... always really liked the melody there, and obviously filled to the rim with nostalgia.

But that tune aside, I agree Sierra had better soundtracks... many very memorable themes, the music in Gabriel Knight is probably amongst some of my absolute favourite Sierra music.

But I love a lot of it.

[Scnew]

It's hard to argue that LeChuck's theme, the Voodoo Theme, and the SCUMM Bar theme aren't fantastic as well, but generally speaking I agree.

[Armakuni]

Yeah, the Monkey Island games have my favourite Lucasfilm/Arts soundtracks, the first two games anyway.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, the first two Monkey Islands are almost (almost!) the exception to the "rule." Some great tunes in Monkey Island 1 and 2. Very memorable themes. But on the whole, I just think Siebert, Allen, Brayman, Holmes, etc were just better composers. Completely my subjective opinion.

[Sarendor]

Hey, wait a second! How could you not mention the Curse of Monkey Island (http://www.worldofmi.com/features/download/mp3/) as one of your Lucasarts favourites? One of the things that I like about the game is that every screen, no matter how trivial, has a soundtrack dedicated to it. (I believe that this also existed in the Discworld game, in which one of my favourites is heard in a shed.) And many screens had several soundtracks as well! And one cannot forget 'A Pirate I was Meant to be (http://www.worldofmi.com/files/mp3s/mi3/cd2/A%20pirate%20I%20was%20meant%20to%20be.mp3).'

[MusicallyInspired]

CMI has a good soundtrack. :) I just don't think it's as good as the first two.

[DevNull]

Loom had a pretty good soundtrack too.

[GuybrushWilco]

CMI is my fav Monkey Island game :), and I think it has the best soundtrack too...well maybe TMI does.

[SHODANFreeman]

Loom had a pretty good soundtrack too.

You mean "Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake is a good soundtrack"?

[thom-22]

I'm just guessing here, but I don't think Tchaikovsky did the arrangements for the Loom soundtrack.

[MusicallyInspired]

It's not like the arrangements in the game are anything more special than the original.

[Lambonius]

Since when does a soundtrack have to be entirely original to be good? Loom was one of the absolute best of the Lucasarts soundtracks.

[MusicallyInspired]

I wasn't alluding that it wasn't, just that it's no different than the original, as it seemed thom was suggesting. I think it works well.

[thom-22]

That's not what I was suggesting.

[SHODANFreeman]

Since when does a soundtrack have to be entirely original to be good? Loom was one of the absolute best of the Lucasarts soundtracks.

It's not even 5% original. It fits the game really well, and it's great music, but it's hardly a "Lucasarts soundtrack". They literally just took bits of Swan Lake and arranged them for MIDI (almost verbatim).

[Lambonius]

It's not even 5% original. It fits the game really well, and it's great music, but it's hardly a "Lucasarts soundtrack". They literally just took bits of Swan Lake and arranged them for MIDI (almost verbatim).

Soundtrack =/= original score. No arguments that it's not original, but it's still a great soundtrack, regardless--made all the better by how well it fits the tone of the game.

If we're just talking original Lucasarts compositions, I doubt anyone will argue that the Monkey Island themes are the best of the bunch--although I also have a soft spot for The Dig soundtrack, too.

[MusicallyInspired]

My bad, thom.

Fitting you would, Lamb, as it was, like Monkey Island, scored by Michael Land. :)

[Lambonius]

Fitting you would, Lamb, as it was, like Monkey Island, scored by Michael Land. :)

Interesting. I did not know that. :) Although, I can't say I'm surprised.

[thom-22]

All this talk gets me thinking I wanna play Loom again soon. I'll need something to play if my Portal 2 box isn't in the mail tomorrow. :D

[MusicallyInspired]

Just finished Portal 2 tonight.....now I need to play some co-op.

[galbyman]

I basicly want them all remade, even though I would not buy LSR. But I would really like to see Rock Star Games remake Police Quest in the style of thier upcoming LA Noir game. I think that would be freaking awesome. And maybe a Quest for Glory in the style of Fable III. But I definatly want to have another Space Quest game.

[nameless]

space quest would be nice, but gabriel knight would be my absolute dream (and i think jane jensen and robert holmes would love to cooperate). not so sure about larry though, i think this humor will get boring quickly plus they already damaged the franchise with the last two games (besides; the rights currently belong to codemasters, not activision).