When can we expect to see SOMETHING about Telltale's KQ?

[exo]

Thanks for making all those wonderful points BagginsKQ and MusicallyInspired.

And thanks for not addressing any of them Chyron8472, and instead harping on your insistence that I'm a troll that has it out for you and your clairvoyant family.

How about to go back and address all of BagginsKQ's nicely organized points, or simply drop your insistence that

<deep breath>

just because a unicorn is walking around that it is somehow blatantly obvious that one needs a bridle from an island because a whale didn't show up earlier and you apparently like to take swims out to sea every time you accomplish anything (or have a conversation) which allows you to know that the SPECIFIC event that triggered the whale MUST have been the unicorn and not anything else you might have seen or done which in turn means anyplace you find due to the whale MUST contain the solve for the unicorn (in which case one could just as easily assume the bridle is under the whales tongue) and therefor when you arrive on the island even though a cursory examination (LOOK) reveals nothing and even a further examination reveals nothing (LOOK AT GROUND), you had the forsight (not hindsight apparently) to repeat the process of looking at the ground behind the bird, by the ship wreck, and every other onscreen object in the slight chance that rosella is not able to see something as massive as a bloody bridle over the top of the wooden ship EVEN THOUGH the command LOOK AT GROUND reveals everything on the ground in every other scene in that game, and all three games leading up to it.

<deep breath>

If you and your family stumbled upon it accidentally, then good for you. Don't mistake coincidence and circumstance for a standard puzzle design. And don't even try and convince me that you swam in the ocean so much that you knew exactly why the whale had appeared, and therefor, upon arriving at the island, where 100% clear that the means by which you could mount the unicorn must be hidden here somewhere. That is an absolutely ridiculous claim for anyone to make, and even more of a stretch when it becomes the crux of your argument that it is not an obtuse turn of events in the first place.

And if you would like to continue discussing this, I will remind you that there is no precedence for items being hidden behind things (that are laying on the ground), and yet you cling to "precedence" like a life preserver in terms of trying to convince everyone here that you had absolutely NO REASON WHAT-SO-EVER to try looking in the obviously drawn mouse hole.

You aren't convincing anyone here, and the more you go on and on the more contrary your arguments seem to get. As far as the "quality" or number of the KQ fans currently on this board, it is no accident that most of the people here are either extremely well versed in the lore and run fan sites or somehow involved with the production of fan made KQ games. IE: The most diehard of diehard KQ fans are here for the most part. BagginsKQ here is giving you a step by step list of the problems with your logic, and the best you can do is try to convince him that I am a troll.

If you would like to point out precedence for me being a troll, then you might be able to tie it into your original argument. Or maybe you can identify the exact point in this conversation where the troll appeared, in which case you could then derive that the following post contains the solution to ridding yourself of the troll. Or maybe it is all much simpler than that and if you were to only ask the troll to leave you be using the correct parser terminology (and from the correct room in the forum), it would then leave you be.

I rest my case, unless you would like to continue this farce of hind sighted nonsense, in which case I shall continue and taunt you a second time.

[BagginsKQ]

Another place a person might search and hi and low for 'bridles' might be the various houses... There is alot of junk in the Fisherman's house... The manor is a pretty big place... Rich people often own horses! ...or even try to get past the scary forest! Whose to say that someone hadn't lost their horse, while trying ride through the woods!

There is clearly no 'logical' explanation for why a bridle would be 'out at sea' (horses are land mammals)... or that you would need to be eaten by a whale to find it!

Whereas, 'cheese found in a mouse hole' makes perfect sense... It just breaks down from there (once you have found it)...

Encountering the whale is dumb luck, 'non-linear randomness', in a out of the way location... That also requires so many other factors to even get out of the predicament. A player has to assume, that finding the 'whistle' isn't the only reason he ended upon the island!

[KatieHal]

The two puzzles have the same problem of lack of logic at different ends.

There's no logical reason to look for a bridle on an island you only reach by being swallowed by a whale. However, once you have it, it's pretty clear what to do with it.

It's no great leap of logic that cheese will be in a mouse's hole. However, once you get it, there's no logical reason to use it to jumpstart a wand machine.

[Lambonius]

This thread is a rip-roaring good time! :D

[Anakin Skywalker]

All this madness over a piece of cheese.
Look, King's Quest is CHEESY. Therefore, it is only logical that machines in the series be powered by Cheese. Simple.

[Chyron8472]

[...] I'm a troll [...]

Yes, I know.

[blueskirt]

Exo's post did come off as insulting, in a "Nobody here agrees with you so shut up and go away already" kind of way. I would not call him a troll, but "Agree to disagree?" would have been a much better and polite way to voice what he wanted to say. Just saying.

Back on topic, I'm with Blackthorne and Katie on this one, both puzzles are retarded and their only purpose was to incite people to buy hint books or dial the Sierra's hint line. Telltale will hopefully not pull off something this retarded in their game.

Back on on topic, walking deads or dead ends are hardly a generational thing. The Secret Of Monkey Island was released a year after King's Quest V. It, and the many dead end free LucasArts games that followed it were damn hard none-the-less, it was regarded as a breath of fresh air when it was released and I cannot think of a single post-Loom LucasArts game that would be improved if dead ends were included.

I also disagree that it only takes thirty minutes to restart from the start when you encounter a dead end in an adventure game. When you know where you screwed up or where the item you need is, sure, it takes thirty minutes, but when you don't know the exact moment where you screwed up, and that was the case in many old school adventure games, you have to double and triple check every rooms looking for something you didn't pick up or didn't do correctly, hardly something you can do under thirty minutes.

But the more I think about it, the more I think that dead ends, like death, are not inherently frustrating, it's just that more often than not they have been badly implemented, and if it's possible to make dying in adventure games a logical, fair and non frustrating process that add to the immersion and realism, or in the case of some Sierra games, is part of the fun, maybe the same could be done with dead ends.

What if dead ends were fair, logical and not tied to moon logic puzzles, if the solutions were located in the same chapter as the dead ends and you only had to replay a small portion of the game, not the whole thing, if the game warned you that you are currently in an unwinnable state, hinted where exactly you screwed up, didn't not force you to replay maze or action sequences, warned you beforehand that you had to be prepared before entering an area you cannot come back from, provided automatic saves, that could not be overwritten, at specific moments in the game like the beginning of each chapters, or what if the game was still completable, if only with a sub-par ending... well, maybe dead ends could be tolerable.

I do not believe dead ends will get a revival in commercial projects, there is simply too much stigmata linked to them, doing so would simply drive away everyone but a minority of ultra hardcore players, it would be a financial suicidal move. But in freeware indie adventure games? Who knows. Maybe designing a game where dead ends are present, tolerable and a welcome feature could be a project Infamous Adventures could try to tackle.

[Blackthorne519]

I kind of like dead ends, if the objective is pretty clearly given to you earlier in the game. I don't like them when they come out of nowhere, but the idea that you didn't accomplish something earlier can bite you in the ass later appeals to me.

Dead ends can be used, but they must be handled with a lot of planning and care, for sure. In the end, no game is perfect - it's entertainment, and sometime what seems to work well for a designer doesn't end up working well out in practice. I'd rather designers take a risk like that - far too often (but not always, I cannot stress that enough) clinging to a no-dead ends philosophy leads to bland and safe game design.


Bt

[Irishmile]

I really hope they release something soon... even a little teaser art or something.

[Chyron8472]

I agree. However, it seems to be standard procedure for TTG to not give very many details about their projects until they're almost at the release date.

[MusicallyInspired]

For the record, I don't condone exo's tone and I have nothing against Chyron. My comments about clairvoyance were more in jest than anything. But I stand by what I said. It was luck that you guessed the whale appeared only after the unicorn puzzle was launched. Like I said, one could assume that the whale's appearance is an extremely rare random event. It's not that far fetched. Especially in King's Quest. And what about the people that don't spend most of their game time swimming back and forth between Tamir's shores and Genesta's island?

Anyway, this is a stupid debate now so I quit. :p

[exo]

Yes, I know.

Maybe you should go take a swim in the ocean and see if this triggered something new.

Note: There is a huge difference between trolling and getting fed up with your ridiculous excuses and backwards ass logic. I'm not going to sit here nicely discussing things with you when you blatantly ignore all evidence that contradicts you.

My point earlier was not that you should "shut up", but rather many of the people's biggest KQ fans and most knowledgeable people happen to be on this board. Several of them have directly provided arguments that contradict your viewpoint, and so maybe you might want to consider that when several people (one or two of which can quote the games backwards) provide examples and well thought out evidence that happen to disagree with your point, then you might want to get off your little horse there and take into account that maybe your wrong.

Sure, I could have been nicer in stating that, but you could have been less daft when stating that EVERYONE KNOWS the whale ONLY appeared because you gave a unicorn a blowjob in the forest. retarded logic is retarded, and i'm not shy in calling that out.

[Chyron8472]

Okay, I'm playing through KQ4 again, and the bridle is not the only thing you need to stand in a certain place to be able to see.
http://i.imgur.com/m9Uh5.png


However, I find that the bridle can, in fact, be seen while not in the boat.
http://i.imgur.com/SPKiq.png


Further, you get thrown into a cell in Lolotte's castle in KQ4 and have to wait for a while before being released, and there is nothing of importance at all in the cell. Played KQ4... nothing in the cell. Played KQ6... nothing in the cell. There is logic here, I'm sure you can see it.

Also, you don't have to swim everywhere a lot of times to notice the whale or lack thereof. All you have to do is accidentally fall off the pier and swim north or south a screen from it to see open ocean, and you have to swim to Genesta's and back at least once to get the feather. Yet, you never see the whale. After you visit Lolotte, the whale's appearance is quite frequent. This logically follows that you only see the whale after visiting Lolotte, and therefore that there is something of value on the island since yyou require the whale to get to it. "But Lolotte is the first place you're supposed to go anyway. How would a person know this?" Well, the path to Lolotte's castle is in the far southeast corner, and there's a lot of map to explore before a first time player finds that screen.

[BagginsKQ]

Chyron when I played through kq4 for the first time I searched the cell you are thrown into. I looked at every thing I could. I didn't just sit there twiddling my thumbs. That's how you correctly discover there is nothing of interest.

Likewise in Kq5 I didn't just sit there, and ignore things on the screen. I looked around clicked on everything. Doing so brings up closes ups of the mouse hole and the cheese.

If you sit around ignoring thigs and doing nothing in the few minutes while you wait, you aren't playing these games correctly...

However, I find that the bridle can, in fact, be seen while not in the boat.
One thing you overlooked or failed to mention is the fact that the ball is actually rather more obvious, as a player you can see it on screen.

Where as the boat you can't see anything, and have to be standing in the right place to see the clue.

But, Interesting that you take the rule to look at everything on the island, but you apparently lazily ignored everything in the dungeons! This is a double standard!

For me personally I found the bridle the first time, since I have an investigative nature and check everything! Even things that might be unimportant. Likewise I found the cheese easily, as I explored everything in each screen...

Also, you don't have to swim everywhere a lot of times to notice the whale or lack thereof. All you have to do is accidentally fall off the pier and swim north or south a screen from it to see open ocean, and you have to swim to Genesta's and back at least once to get the feather. After you visit Lolotte, the whale's appearance is quite frequent.

Don't you realize what you suggests required an accident?! Not every player is going to make that action. Especially of they are careful types. Secondly, people can travel to genesta's island first thing in the game and get the feather. They won't encounter the whale and there is nothing to indicating to the player that a well will show up later... That they need to go out swimming again.

Again you aren't taking the non-linear nature of KQ4 into account, and are trying to apply a linear series of events to the puzzle progression. You are assuming that a player discovers the island after talking to Lolotte, and picks up the feather after that event as well.

Yes some may accidentally discover the whale, or find the feather after discovering the whale, but non-linear gameplay means its possible for players to discover areas and items before they are actually needed in the game. Experiences vary.

[MusicallyInspired]

You can SEE the gold ball under the bridge. Visually. And at least the message says specifically "You see nothing of importance from where you are standing."

[Chyron8472]

Likewise in Kq5 I didn't just sit there, and ignore things on the screen. I looked around clicked on everything.

You say that as though there's quite a lot to click on.

http://i.imgur.com/Nwuru.png

So, I missed that one stupid little hole amongst all the other blank wall. The mouse wasn't exactly conspicuous, you know.

[BagginsKQ]

You say that as though there's quite a lot to click on.

You must be blind... I looked where the mouse went first time I played the game. Looked at other parts of the room as well just to see the narrative descriptions around the room. I say that meaning I tried to physically click on every thing in the room, the walls, the water, the roof, the strange plants, the bars, the skeleton, mouse hole, the ground etc! I'm thorough.

Perhaps you needed glasses or a new prescription? Or maybe you are color blind to certain shades?

Also, IIRC, just looking around the northern wall, the narrator will even point to there being 'mouse hole' on that wall.

[KuroShiro]

Speaking of all the somewhat unfair KQ puzzles, I was replaying KQ6 a bit recently, and stumbled across something I hadn't before in the pawnshop --by looking at the shelves, you get a whole trove of funny easter eggs...


Self-adhesive emeralds: what you use when you don't have honey
Tongue-climbing gear. Tested on over 100 whale tongues
A uvula tickler, guaranted to make large animals sneeze
A cheese hook, for retriving cheese from small holes
A shovel that's guaranteed not to break for over 100 grave diggings
A bridge repair kit, for when you're crossed a brdige one too many time
Stair traction pads. Stop slipping off those narrow staircases!
A hull hole detector, for finding those hard to find holes in sail boats
Cat cookie mix. Play tricks on your friends, the box says
A golden bridle-finder, for finding those nearly invisible golden bridles
A bottle labelled owl courage potion, for spineless owls
A bottle of gnome-be-gone
Bird's nest soup mix, treasure not included
Garlic, especially grown for vampire resilience
Magic mirror glass cleaner, for when your future looks fuzzy
Shark repellant
A small box of sorceror's enchanted flea collars


Do you know all the references? :D

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm finding it difficult to get the flea collar and gnome-be-gone references. The rest I get, though lol. Never saw all that.

[BagginsKQ]

Sorcerer's flea coller, is easy... Manannan became a cat hasn't he?

The 'gnome-be-gone' is a self reference to KQ6, in which one of the early puzzles once you leave the leave the Isle of the Crown, is to get rid of the five Sense Gnomes.

Note, that while Rumplestiltskin, a 'gnome' appears in KQ1 and KQ3, you aren't trying to 'get rid of him'.

Although there is a gnome in Wizard and the Princess, that gets in your way, and steals your stuff (leading you to have to find his secret home)... It might be nice to be able to 'get rid of that one'!

The 'hull hole detector' is a double reference to a puzzle in Wizard and the Princess, and similar puzzle in KQ5, both games that occured in Serenia.

[KuroShiro]

Sorcerer's flea coller, is easy... Manannan became a cat hasn't he?


It does seem like it, it's just that it wouldn't be an obvious way to solve any particular puzzle, which the others all seem to be. Maybe it would make him less ornery in Mordack's castle. :p

It was thinking Rumplestiltskin for the Gnome-be-gone, or maybe a mis-named way to get rid of the thieving dwarf in 1.

[BagginsKQ]

I'm pretty sure, its self reference, to having to get rid of five gnomes in KQ6 itself.

But that would make the puzzle super easy, if you could just buy the bottle of 'gnome-be-gone'!

Like, I said, you don't 'get rid of' Rumplestiltskin, he helps you in both games! Even if you screw up the backwards version/s of his name! He's there to be one of the few good guys, who tries to give the players a helping hand!

wouldn't be an obvious way to solve any particular puzzle, which the others all seem to be.

Technically, neither would "miniature carpet cleaner"!

'bird's nest soup mix' wouldn't solve any particular puzzle either! (the treasure isn't included!)

The magic mirror cleaner is somewhat off the 'puzzle' solution path as well!

[MusicallyInspired]

It could very well be in reference to the dwarf.

[Lambonius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX7QEACjj9E

No news on KQ yet, but this video interview about Walking Dead brings up something very distressing--the fact that Telltale is continuing with their misguided attempts at "revolutionary cinematic adventure" QTE gameplay, which we will apparently see in Walking Dead. And this after JP was nearly universally panned for its terrible gameplay. Without their ability to get sought-after licenses and milk them for all they are worth with minimal creative effort, this company would be sunk.

The prospects are just looking dimmer and dimmer for Telltale's KQ. Ugh.

[BagginsKQ]

There aren't really any direct puzzles surrounding the dwarf... Somewhat more to do in KQ2 but not really anything involving 'banishing' the dwarf. Plus both game already have 'dwarf-be-gone' powers so to speak, think fairy godmother and good fairy. So that kind of ruins the intent of the joke (having something you didn't have access to in the game itself)!

Even then the Dwarf is not really much of a threat in kQ1 only appears in one screen in the original, and a couple more in the remake. In kQ2 you can go get whatever he steals back from him. But in both he's relatively easy to avoid, and he won't follow you between screens. He is always completely random. Not truly an obstacle.

I can't think of anywhere the games mix up dwarves and gnomes in terminology.

I mean even KQ1 specifically divided the two species.

KQ6 (and possibly Wizard and The Princess) are the only games were you have banish gnomes getting in your way. But don't have anything to do it with (Wizard and the Princess), or need more than one thing to do it.

[SHODANFreeman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX7QEACjj9E

No news on KQ yet, but this video interview about Walking Dead brings up something very distressing--the fact that Telltale is continuing with their misguided attempts at "revolutionary cinematic adventure" QTE gameplay, which we will apparently see in Walking Dead. And this after JP was nearly universally panned for its terrible gameplay. Without their ability to get sought-after licenses and milk them for all they are worth with minimal creative effort, this company would be sunk.

The prospects are just looking dimmer and dimmer for Telltale's KQ. Ugh.

Utterly pathetic.

[MusicallyInspired]

I think we can say within relative safety margins that KQ won't have QTE, but that doesn't mean they're not going to fail to deliver a satisfying puzzle experience with the same lazy puzzle design mentality they've put into the past two titles (and looks like a third is upcoming).

Look at it this way, if it sucks it sucks. It'll die quickly and nobody will remember it. KQ will find a new home one day. It doesn't really matter in the end. At least we can then say that there was something worse than MOE. ;)

[BagginsKQ]

I find KQ7 to be marginally worse than KQ8...

[SHODANFreeman]

I agree. However, it seems to be standard procedure for TTG to not give very many details about their projects until they're almost at the release date.

Presumably because they know their games are atrocious messes that no one would buy with any knowledge of what the game is actually like?

[Blackthorne519]

Well, I certainly hope they don't go the QTE way on King's Quest. In fact, I hope - for this company - that King's Quest is the game that breaks their current mold and trend, and actually is a positive title for the company.


Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

I find KQ7 to be marginally worse than KQ8...

As far as the majority is concerned, I mean. Though, that still probably won't happen.

Well, I certainly hope they don't go the QTE way on King's Quest. In fact, I hope - for this company - that King's Quest is the game that breaks their current mold and trend, and actually is a positive title for the company.

Hopefully.

[thom-22]

I think we can say within relative safety margins that KQ won't have QTE, but that doesn't mean they're not going to fail to deliver a satisfying puzzle experience with the same lazy puzzle design mentality they've put into the past two titles (and looks like a third is upcoming).

I would agree with this, at least I can't imagine Telltale would use QTEs as the predominant gameplay mechanism in KQ.

Presumably because they know their games are atrocious messes that no one would buy with any knowledge of what the game is actually like?

The thing is, lots of people don't consider them atrocious messes. Whether we like it or not, there is a market for trivially interactive content-delivery systems masquerading as games.

Look at it this way, if it sucks it sucks. It'll die quickly and nobody will remember it. KQ will find a new home one day. It doesn't really matter in the end.

See previous comment. There is a worst-case scenario for which you haven't accounted. BTTF might have sucked in all possible ways of assessing it as a game; nobody is going to remember it twenty-five years from now, unlike KQ and other Sierra titles that are still regarded fondly by so many gamers. But given the financial success of BTTF, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if TTG gets the rights and makes a second season.

[KatieHal]

We continued the 'items that would've been useful in previous KQ games' thing in the pawnshop in TSL, as well. If you look at the shelves directly behind Hakim, you'll get a few references. (Actually one of them, web-be-gone, we turned into an in-game item eventually!)

[exo]

I've played through kq6 over 10 times and never seen those descriptions. I suck at exploring apparently.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Gods, the more I read this thread, the less interested I think I am becoming in the game. Largely because of the way many people in here are reacting to ideas or simply stating how they feel about things in the previous games.

Puzzles so difficult they take days to figure out? No thanks, I did that in the 80's and 90's. I'm all up for looking at things in a different way, but "Moon Logic" as a trope was created for a reason, and early adventure games had a lot of that. Don't get me started on many of the games which had seemingly unwinnable scenarios because you literally would have to call up for help before you even conceived of what might be the right solution.

Games are too easy? Easy games aren't fun? It's easier to make games easy than it is hard? Wow, talking out your asses much? I'm not trying to be rude, but gods-damn, that sounds so freaking wrong. I've been playing games for going on 30 years, and if anything, pulling back the "difficulty" in general has been a blessing. Not because it allows more "casual" gamers to play, but because it means that people who don't have time to master a game are actually able to beat it. You know, those of us with lives, outside interests, and less-than-perfect reflexes. It's also ridiculously easy for games to be made hard, as many games these days have quite a lot of instances of unbalanced gameplay where you hit brick walls of difficulty, or the gameplay can't make up its mind, or developers thing Easy and Normal are just enemies with less HP.

I'm sorry, but that really strikes a nerve with me when people bitch about how easy games are getting, when in many cases I think games are getting harder. Just not for the same reasons they were hard in the old days.


Anyways, back to King's Quest. I see some of you guys condemn those who thought KQ7 was fun and enjoyable, and that honestly makes me sick. You praise a game for giving the player a hefty penalty upon making a mistake, when it's crap like that which was driving people away from the genre. I know some of you guys aren't gonna like this, but it was the lack of constant death hanging over your head that made a lot of people like the LucasArts style of adventure gaming.

Sure, saving constantly is a good idea, but why should I have to have tons of save slots just cause every screen can potentially kill me? That's not only bothersome, but it breaks the illusion of actually being there. I don't know what kind of rose-tinted glasses some of you are wearing, but the fact is that many people did NOT enjoy unwinnable scenarios. Heck, I was very glad when we stopped having to constantly rely on the keyboard for everything. I did rather miss the typing and such, but I sure didn't miss dying cause I couldn't type fast enough.

I'm sorry if I've stepped on some toes, it's just.. the topic of difficulty in modern gaming, and the way some people cling to the notion that everyone loves ridiculous challenges or inane logic puzzles kind of gets to me. It tends to make me kind of upset. Probably cause I lived through that era and didn't enjoy it much then, either. Sure, I enjoy older games far more than most modern ones and will replay NES, SNES, and Genesis games quite often. I wish I could enjoy more older PC games, though GOG is helping fix that.. but I don't miss how hair-pullingly frustrating a lot of older games could be. I don't miss scouring magazines for clues, wasting money on hints, relying on trial-and-error or pixel perfect precision to get the job done.


As per the topic itself: What I want from TTG's King's Quest is for a fun and engrossing entry to the series that both makes me think back fondly to older games, while giving me a new story/adventure either with characters I love or set in a world I enjoyed living in for a while. I don't want something like KQ1-4, but I could do without KQ8. I sincerely doubt we'd get something like it, but if they wanted an actiony game, they could do worse than getting inspiration for the gameplay style of something like Soul Reaver. But what I enjoy most about TTG's entries is the gameplay they already provide, so I won't be complaining if we get something like Monkey Island or Sam & Max.

Honestly, I think we should all just quit speculating and let them surprise us. The more we debate or hype ourselves up, the more we'll be disappointed if it isn't what we are imagining. It's one of the reasons I largely avoid learning about games I'm interested in. I'd certainly rather be pleasently surprised or nonplussed than let down.

[Lambonius]

whole post

I think you're very much missing the point of the "too easy" argument.

First of all, there's a big difference between games in general getting easier (as in, taking less time to master a set of skills needed in order to beat certain enemies or bosses, etc.) and point-and-click adventure games getting so dumbed down that they might as well be movies where the player periodically has to click "unpause" to keep the story going.

Did you play Back to the Future? Because that's pretty much all that game was. The amount of hotspots in a given area was usually countable on one hand. Did you play Jurassic Park? Watch an LP sometime if you haven't, because that's the same experience you'd get playing it. Telltale's last few games have been increasingly like extended cutscenes with small points of interaction in between.

That's NOT what we want from King's Quest. Can you honestly say that's what you'd want out of a new KQ game? We want to be able to explore a world that feels interactive, where nearly everything in a given area is clickable. We want that world to be more than a few rooms strung together by cutscenes that outnumber gameplay sequences. And we want puzzles that make us think--that require us to consider all the items in our inventory and how they might be combined and used on various areas of the environment.

In Telltale's last true point-and-click game (Back to the Future,) the player rarely had more than three things in his inventory at a given time, and rarely had to deal with any puzzles whose solutions weren't "click one of your three items on one of the three hotspots in the room" or "exhaust all dialog options." Seriously, those aren't even puzzles. What critical thought do they require AT ALL??

Nobody really honestly expects Telltale to create a game with moon logic and dead-ends. Most of the arguments in this thread have been about whether or not certain notorious puzzles in the old games REALLY were illogical, or whether or not dead ends could be justified BACK THEN. Nobody is seriously saying "Please, Telltale, give us a game where I can miss something at the beginning, play the rest of the game, and then not be able to finish it because of that thing I missed at the beginning."

What we are saying, is "Please, Telltale, give us a game that captures the feel of open-ended exploration, world interactivity, and satisfying puzzle-solving of the original games, with familiar, well-written characters that we know and love." We're even okay with them expanding on the story elements, as long as it doesn't come at the sacrifice of all the things that made the old King's Quest games great (see my previous sentence.)

So please, get off your high horse. We've all been playing games just as long as you have, and have just as much a right to our opinions on things as you do. If you take the time to read our opinions carefully, you might even find that our ideas about what made a King's Quest game awesome aren't all that different in the first place.

[exo]

Hiroshi - you've just pulled a switcharoo and taken a debate about puzzle difficulty and switched that out into an attack on game difficulty overall.

There is a huge difference between saying, 'I want this game to be harder than the current crop of Tell tale games" and "I want this game to be as hard as possible".

As Lambonius pointed out, TT's latest games have been ridiculously easy. there is a huge difference between moon logic and having to actually think and not just clikc on one of 5 spots on the screen.

The entire point of most of the threads here is that TT has gotten away from adventure games in general and started creating quicktime event movies. The thread over on the walking dead game is showing signs of the same issues that plagued BttF. Many of us have hoped for years for a new official entry in the series, and many of us would rather not have one at all then see a light weight cartoon fantasy slideshow that we just click through.

[thom-22]

A simple question deserves a simple answer.
Wow, talking out your asses much?

No, I'm not talking out of my ass, and I really don't see any justification for accusing me of doing so because I'm of the opinion that adventure games are getting too easy and that I find easy games boring.

The gist of my posts and similar ones is a simple request that TTG's game be made so that it can be enjoyed by those of us who like challenging Sierra-style gameplay, and that it not cater solely to those who played Sierra games in spite of the difficult puzzles or new audiences unused to such gameplay.

I might actually start to worry that this request is unreasonable if someone ever came and presented an argument that doesn't include...

...because it means that people who don't have time to master a game are actually able to beat it. You know, those of us with lives, outside interests, and less-than-perfect reflexes.

false dichotomies...

I see some of you guys condemn those who thought KQ7 was fun and enjoyable, and that honestly makes me sick.

delusions of persecution...

You praise a game for giving the player a hefty penalty upon making a mistake, when it's crap like that which was driving people away from the genre. I know some of you guys aren't gonna like this, but it was the lack of constant death hanging over your head that made a lot of people like the LucasArts style of adventure gaming.

single-cause hypotheses to explain complex phenomena...

...some people cling to the notion that everyone loves ridiculous challenges or inane logic puzzles...

and imaginary strawmen.

[exo]

In other news, over in the walking dead forum they released some info the other day in regards to the first episode that boils down to:
"2 hours"
"It doesn't have a lot of barriers"
"We want you to finish it."

Sounds a lot like a movie to me..... and makes me worry that TellTale is only going further down the rabbit hole.

[BagginsKQ]

That's part of my problem with the chapters in KQ7 they often took less than 2 hours... Most puzzles were pointed out to you in some fashion... Either characters that ask for a specific item (from a specific location), or flat out obvious solutions... Most characters only appear when they are related to a particular puzzle solution...

Granted most of KQ games can be finished in less than few hours... But most had good puzzles (the main time sink)...

KQ3 (probably the worst puzzle design in the entire series, or lack of true in inventory puzzles) takes place in real time (minus timer pausing during spell cast typing). I generally complete it with no more than two hours on the timer.... KQ4 (some of the best puzzle design of the series) also works in real time (with one event pushing time foreward after you complete certain conditions). I've never actually timed the timer but I suspect it takes no more than 3-4 hours for the 24 hour period to elapse... Typing pauses the timer I think.

Although on he one hand that's an arguement that in some ways total play time for four or five episodes last longer than the actual total content of early games... But unfortunately including cases of dumbed down and/or overused/unoriginal rehashed/recycled puzzle design.

Though also take into account the early games had less cutscenes/conversations/exposition and spent more of that time on puzzles... So in someways 'more actual gameplay' in the same amount of time. So a three hour game was more puzzle solving than the story itself. Whereas in modern games a single episode maybe 3 hours but contain more exposition than gameplay...

Who knows how much total actual gameplay exists over the course of the entire 4-5 episodes... It might end up having a similar number of puzzles as early adventure games, but most of extra time (as in beyond he time it takes to solve the puzzles) taken up by exposition...

[thom-22]

In other news, over in the walking dead forum they released some info the other day in regards to the first episode that boils down to:
"2 hours"
"It doesn't have a lot of barriers"
"We want you to finish it."

Sounds a lot like a movie to me..... and makes me worry that TellTale is only going further down the rabbit hole.

This isn't really unexpected, though, is it? I thought it became clear somewhere between the releases of BTTF and JP that Telltale's design philosophy calls for trivially interactive content-delivery systems. I don't see them ever making another adventure game except possibly with properties that have a history as adventure games, and even then I'm not sure what to expect.

[BagginsKQ]

We won't know what they are going to do, until we know any details... they simply haven't released any information on the new King's Quest game...

[exo]

This isn't really unexpected, though, is it? I thought it became clear somewhere between the releases of BTTF and JP that Telltale's design philosophy calls for trivially interactive content-delivery systems. I don't see them ever making another adventure game except possibly with properties that have a history as adventure games, and even then I'm not sure what to expect.

Unexpected? No.

Disappointing? yes.

I happen to be a walking dead fan as well, and I would simply rather read a side story or watch the TV show over guiding some character around a world without "many barriers" (ie: challenge).

They are getting into rats nest by tackling these properties that have cult followings. From JP, to BttF, to Walking Dead, and KQ - what I simply don't get is who they are targeting with these games? How many people are going to play a walking dead game that aren't fans of the series? To the average person it would simply appear to be another zombie game. And both BttF and JP rely on nostalgia from the series to carry them - as neither have any recent movies to highlight the series with a new crowd.

Finally, KQ is very specific property. If you don't design it with the original fans in mind, then who the hell do they expect to play it?

[MusicallyInspired]

The problem is there are way too many Telltale fanboys who will accept anything TTG does just because there hasn't been an official King's Quest in years. I can't stand the argument "At least they're doing something with it! We have a new King's Quest game!" What's the point if it's nothing at all like the originals? That's my fear. I'd rather see it stay dead with dignity than be revived as a joke and a hollow shell of what it once was.

[exo]

agreed 100%. Those who are happy "something is being done with it" fail to realize that bad games can (and will) damage the series and any chance for future revivals.

[BagginsKQ]

However, on the other end of the spectrum is they end up creating a game that has mainstream appeal, and great success. Which hen continues onto its own sequels. But it may not be loved by the many of the long core fans.

That might be worse for many KQ fans as it might insure that KQ never returns back to the original style. But exists on as something else.

Realize that Telltale games seems to churn out games although not always critically appealing to professional critics, seem to appeal with more mass market casual gaming market... Where they see great success, and it seems to influence designers further than that road. It's quicker, cheaper, and more productive for them. That's how capitalism works, develop for the greater audience... Even if that turns out to be pandering to thr lowest common denominator...

[Hiroshi Mishima]

In response to some of the questions aimed my way, no I have not played anything by Telltale since Sam & Max season 3 cause my computer cannot handle it, and even that had to be played at a relative's house. I've been interested in playing BttF and JP, but haven't been able to find a way to play them yet, unless I can somehow rent them for the Xbox or something (which I haven't been able to).

So when I hear people talking about how "easy" the games seem, the only games that spring to mind are stuff like Tales and TDP, neither of which seemed too easy although I'll admit they weren't terribly hard; in fact, they were just right in my eyes.

In regards to not wanting KQ to be a "series of flashing lights you click on" or however you described it, I can understand that completely. However, I don't want them to get the kind of idea that.. say.. Capcom had when they made Megaman 9. "Oh, people want old school action, that must mean they want it unbelievably hard, insta-kills everywhere, and pixel perfect reflexes." And then deliver a game that was, for me, a whole lot harder and less enjoyable than the NES games had been. Thankfully they fixed that with 10, but I think you get what I mean.

I think some of you may have misinterpreted my generalizing for specific people, and I know I shouldn't generalize but it's been hard to break out of that habit once you fall into it. And gods have I fallen into it the last few years, what with unrelenting cynicism and pessimism constantly cropping into my posts.

I didn't mean for the post to be an "all out attack" on people, and I do apologize that it apparently came out that way. Although, Thom-22, instead of simply dissecting what I said with little quips that sound like you're quoting from a dictionary, going into more detail would've been nice. That just made you seem.. pompous.


In regards to difficulty.. well, it IS something I'm really touchy about, and yes I did go off on a tirade about it and I let it start consuming my post which wasn't my original intention, but I never really notice when I'm switching gears/topics in the middle of my writing, I'm afraid.

The fact is, I DO see a lot of people complain about difficulty and games today. So when I heard you guys saying stuff about TTG's being easy, and as I said I hadn't played the last two games so I didn't know you were being specific about them, I thought you were talking about all their games being easy. Which sounded to me like you guys didn't want TTG to make this at all because you didn't like how they make games.

If that's not what you were implying, I apologize.

[MusicallyInspired]

Just because it's too hard and frustrating for you doesn't mean it is for everyone else too. Many of us complain about game difficulty nowadays being to EASY. Between checkpoints, rechargeable health, in-game hints, there's nothing that provides a challenge anymore. A lot of us enjoyed the difficulty of the early games, however difficult to believe that must be to you.

And I don't like how TTG has been making games lately. They're getting worse with each release.

[Irishmile]

I don't know.. I think they are just doing new things... I think they will return to form with Kings Quest... and then hopefully another Sam and Max.. and I dare to wish for a second season of Tales of Monkey Island.

[thom-22]

Although, Thom-22, instead of simply dissecting what I said with little quips that sound like you're quoting from a dictionary, going into more detail would've been nice. That just made you seem.. pompous.
Funny, your high-handed accusation
Wow, talking out your asses much?
gave me the same impression of you.

To elaborate on one of my quips, then...
... the topic of difficulty in modern gaming, and the way some people cling to the notion that everyone loves ridiculous challenges or inane logic puzzles kind of gets to me.

I don't think anyone has that notion in the first place, let alone clinging to it. In fact, I'm a great believer in variety and think the range of video games -- in terms of genre, ease, length, etc. -- available today is a wonderful thing; there's something for everyone. Do you think every game should be (non-optionally) easy? If so, then aren't you going to the opposite extreme of what you so vigorously denounced in your post? If not, if you allow that some adventure games can be designed to satisfy those who like the challenge, then why not this one?

A new King's Quest game, more than any other prospective title I can think of, deserves to be on the difficult end of the spectrum. (With devices employed, eg. a hint system, to make it optionally easier for those who prefer it.) Because of its pedigree, because its fan base is unbelievably intact after all these years and at least some substantial portion appreciated the challenges offered in the original games. You say that what we say sounds wrong. Well, the idea that a new KQ game would be tailored for people who played the originals in spite of finding the puzzles too difficult, rather than for those who truly enjoyed them, is what sounds totally wrong to me.

You're of course not the first person to describe Sierra-style gameplay using terms like "ridiculous" and "inane". But that doesn't mean those things are objectively quantifiable; they're a matter of opinion and neither of us is qualified to know where any particular puzzle falls except for ourselves. Personally, I always found the vast majority of puzzles in KQ to be perfectly reasonable, and very little that I would call ridiculous or inane. Moreover, I would rather play a game where I might run into the odd ridiculous puzzle than one where I'm led by the hand to self-contained, bland and simplistic puzzles as in Telltale's last two games. You're welcome to disagree with that -- and I know plenty of adventure gamers who would indeed disagree. But if you think I'm talking out of my ass for having that preference, well, I would say that's pretty narrow-minded.

[Hero1]

If you look at the puzzle design in episodes 1 and 4 of Tales of Monkey Island by Mike Stemmle it was kind of perfect. They've got Jurassic Park, Back to the Future & Walking Dead which seems to be stories, not games, but I'm pretty confident they'd return to adventure game mechanics for a King's Quest game. I think its noble Telltale want to make story and writing a focus in games, because its basically non-existent in most of these shooters etc. I think they've probably got the balance wrong though, because if I wanted just story I could watch the TV show or movie, the reason I play a video game is because I want to feel like I have some control over what happens.

[Chyron8472]

I would rather play a game where I might run into the odd ridiculous puzzle than one where I'm led by the hand to self-contained, bland and simplistic puzzles as in Telltale's last two games. You're welcome to disagree with that -- and I know plenty of adventure gamers who would indeed disagree. But if you think I'm talking out of my ass for having that preference, well, I would say that's pretty narrow-minded.

This.

The fact that bugs abound increasingly with each game release, BTTF is super fricken easy, and that Jurassic Park and The Walking Dead are just QTE movies isn't helping the situation.

[Lambonius]

If you look at the puzzle design in episodes 1 and 4 of Tales of Monkey Island by Mike Stemmle it was kind of perfect. They've got Jurassic Park, Back to the Future & Walking Dead which seems to be stories, not games, but I'm pretty confident they'd return to adventure game mechanics for a King's Quest game. I think its noble Telltale want to make story and writing a focus in games, because its basically non-existent in most of these shooters etc. I think they've probably got the balance wrong though, because if I wanted just story I could watch the TV show or movie, the reason I play a video game is because I want to feel like I have some control over what happens.

I would still say that even in Tales (my favorite Telltale game) the puzzles never approached anything I'd call challenging. I'd like to see at least a bit more complexity for a KQ game. LOGICAL complexity, but more complexity nonetheless.

Honestly though, it's not enough that Telltale just "return to form" with KQ. Their "form" isn't good enough for KQ, nor is it even the correct KIND of form. There is a MAJOR style discrepancy between Telltale's hotspot & dialog tree focused style of adventure gaming and Sierra's interactive world style adventure gaming.

I simply lament the inevitable--Telltale is going to shoehorn King's Quest characters into their typical (easy, simplistic, barely interactive) adventure game shell--and it is going to SUCK BALLS.

Prove me wrong, Telltale. PROVE ME WRONG!

[BagginsKQ]

King's Quest puzzles were never all that complex... Many required a working knowledge of obscure fairy tales and myth...

Others 'pop culture'... yes, cream pies are somethign you throw in the face as a comedy routine, not necessarily something to eat....

The most complex often went more towards 'moon logic'...

There aren't even all that many 'combine item' or 'uncombine item' puzzles in the games (a few more in the later games)...

Still other puzzlers were even 'spelled' out for you in the manual (KQ3), or given big hints in the manuals(KQ6 Guidebook actually alludes and gives hints to several ingame puzzles, not just the copy protection).

Now, Space Quest, that series has some complex puzzle design...!

[Irishmile]

KQ has also heavily relied on figuring out what an NPC needed so you could get an item off them to give to a completely different NPC in need.. "trading puzzles."

[BagginsKQ]

Often you to ask them what they needed, if they could talk, they'd let you know. Often what they needed related as I said before on knowing fairy tales.

[Irishmile]

One of my favorite KQ memories was solving (tricking) all the sensory gnomes in KQ6.. I thought I was a clever kid that day... good thing they didn't use their senses all at once.

[thom-22]

Honestly though, it's not enough that Telltale just "return to form" with KQ. Their "form" isn't good enough for KQ, nor is it even the correct KIND of form. There is a MAJOR style discrepancy between Telltale's hotspot & dialog tree focused style of adventure gaming and Sierra's interactive world style adventure gaming.

Exactly what I was thinking.

King's Quest puzzles were never all that complex...

It's not necessarily about the complexity of puzzles taken individually, but the overall complexity of the gameworld -- how many ways you have to interact with it; how the puzzles, or rather their components and clues, are diffused throughout; how many are exposed at any given time, etc.

All of the above is especially true for players who find that immersion depends on the qualities of the gameworld rather than those of the story (not that those two things aren't interrelated). Telltale seems to have either little regard for or understanding of these kind of gamers. But it's essentially what underlies the negative reviews of Jurassic Park, which showed a remarkable degree of consistency in praising the story while criticizing the experience.

ADD:

One of my favorite KQ memories was solving (tricking) all the sensory gnomes in KQ6.. I thought I was a clever kid that day... good thing they didn't use their senses all at once.

:D One of my favorite KQ puzzles as well. I like wordplay puzzles but you don't see them so much anymore.

[Lambonius]

It's not necessarily about the complexity of puzzles taken individually, but the overall complexity of the gameworld -- how many ways you have to interact with it; how the puzzles, or rather their components and clues, are diffused throughout; how many are exposed at any given time, etc.

All of the above is especially true for players who find that immersion depends on the qualities of the gameworld rather than those of the story (not that those two things aren't interrelated). Telltale seems to have either little regard for or understanding of these kind of gamers. But it's essentially what underlies the negative reviews of Jurassic Park, which showed a remarkable degree of consistency in praising the story while criticizing the experience.

As usual, thom-22 perfectly articulates EXACTLY what I was thinking. Thanks, thom! ;)

[thom-22]

Thanks, Lamb. Backatcha. Have you played Gemini Rue? I think it's a good example of a game where the puzzles aren't difficult but it still plays like an adventure. There's no hand-holding -- the player always has to take the initiative to figure out how to progress. The puzzles aren't self-contained -- you really have to explore to get the lay of the land, so to speak, and understand the situation (story) before you can solve them. It has multiple modes of interaction where you're responsible for the characters' eyes, voice, hands and feet, and they were used in interesting ways. Plus the threat of death and some shooting sequences enhanced the experience. I thought it was very immersive, as I was compelled to think like the character the whole time I was playing. Easy in a sense, but not simplistic and way more than mindless clicking and watching. Wondering if any other Sierra fans liked this game?

[Lambonius]

I have not played Gemini Rue--but I may just have to check it out based on your recommendation! Only $9.99, too. Why the hell not? :)

[oz999]

I think to expect anything more than something along the lines of KQ7 is unrealistic. This IS telltale after all.

Would I love something more similar to KQ6? Of course. Is it gonna happen? Not likely.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Huh.. thought I had made a post in here, but it's not here. I might've closed out the window before I finished or hit previous and thought it was posted. (I've done that twice this week)

Essentially, I said we should agree to disagree - this was especially towards Thom - as I can see we have different tastes and gaming styles. Where as I put the overall storyline, characters, light challenge (to say nothing of music or voice acting) as key features in my games (particularly adventure games).. it would seem a number of the KQ fans here on this board (and likely elsewhere) prefer the games to be very difficult with a greater emphasis on mind-boggling puzzles. Which isn't to say I'm generalizing, but that's what I'm picking up as I read what's been said.

I have nothing against the earlier games, and indeed enjoy them, but I think KQ5-7 hit that sweet spot that I found most appealing. I certainly was stumped on occasion in KQ7, but never got to the point where I wanted to give up cause I'd spent over an hour wandering out aimlessly - something that could kill you in earlier games if you weren't careful.

I also ended the post by saying that if the Telltale KQ is anywhere along the lines of 5-7, I'll be happy. I don't really think Adventure games should need a difficulty setting, but I suppose that might be the only way some people will be satisfied. I think Simon the Sorcerer 2 did that pretty well, actually.. the Harder setting moved some of the items to other locations, added some new items, and gave puzzles more steps to completion.

[MusicallyInspired]

No, you are generalizing by saying we want mind-boggling puzzles. Nobody said that. We just said we want a challenge. None of this adventure lite crap.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I suppose it depends on what you see as acceptable levels for challenging puzzles or gameplay. What you or somebody else may think of as "just right" I or other may find "mind-boggling" or highly frustrating.

Which isn't to say that I'm a simpleton or a dullard, I just don't seem to pick up the patterns people claim to see within the adventure game genre. Thinking of Simon the Sorcerer 2, and when I played it on Hard first I found it to be almost too difficult at times. Yet I'd frequently hear people say that the game was just "more of the same" and very easy if you'd played lots of adventure games. However, having played lots of adventure games, I didn't feel that was the case at all.

If I am generalizing, I'm certainly not aware of it at the time. Even now I'm not entirely certain that I'm actually doing it. As per what I said earlier in this post.

[BagginsKQ]

Personally from my perspective, it not that some of modern adventure games have 'become less challenging'... the problem is they have recycled puzzles I've seen in other games a dozen times... so those puzzles are neither innovative nor challenging at this point...

The creativity and originality just isn't there anymore...

[Lambonius]

it would seem a number of the KQ fans here on this board (and likely elsewhere) prefer the games to be very difficult with a greater emphasis on mind-boggling puzzles. Which isn't to say I'm generalizing, but that's what I'm picking up as I read what's been said.

Then either you need to get your eyesight checked, or you have serious reading comprehension problems.

Nowhere, in any of the above posts that responded to your initial rant, did anyone say they wanted moon logic puzzles. It has been explicitly explained several times (most concisely by thom-22 a few posts up from here) what we meant by "complexity" in an adventure game.

[Lambonius]

This is why Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert are gaming gods.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/02/24/double-fine-kickstarter-adds-new-rewards-schafer-and-gilbert-ta/

These guys absolutely "get" adventure games--what made them good, what mistakes designers made, why Telltale's games suck balls (okay, they don't explicitly say that, but their description of good adventure game puzzle design is essentially the polar opposite of the puzzles in Telltale's games.) Such a great video. I can't WAIT for this project. I might just have to go find another bucket or two of money to throw at it.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Then either you need to get your eyesight checked, or you have serious reading comprehension problems.

Nowhere, in any of the above posts that responded to your initial rant, did anyone say they wanted moon logic puzzles. It has been explicitly explained several times (most concisely by thom-22 a few posts up from here) what we meant by "complexity" in an adventure game.

You know, both you and Thom seem to be very rude. I know I was a bit rude in my original post in here but a lot of that was frustration at what I was reading lashing out. I apologized for it. I don't consistently call your mental or physical capabilities into question, and I'm getting quite tired of it the repeated badgering. I'm trying to have a discussion, not an argument (though I know it doesn't always seem that way). I have Tourette Syndrome and Diabetes, so I sometimes suffer from mood swings and don't always realize when I'm being overly rude or meanspirited, but I always try to apologize afterwards when I've re-read my message or someone has pointed it out. What's your excuse?

I did read the other posts and when I saw how highly people were praising some of the games that I personally felt were the hardest entries in the series (such as KQ3) or saying how easy KQ7 was, it seemed to me what you or others were saying is that you like ridiculously hard puzzles which included quite a few that did indeed incorporate "moon logic" as the trope goes. I certainly didn't use the term back in the day, but it's definitely the way I'd describe a variety of puzzles in the series, particularly the more headache-inducing ones.

Perhaps we need a separate discussion for things like "what puzzles did you find overly complex?" or "what did you feel was easier than other parts?" Because apparently I have been unable to gleam this information from previous messages in this thread.

I apologized for my rudeness earlier, I've yet to see you do the same or even stop. I'm not trying to start a fight, but that's certainly what you seem to be doing. :/


EDIT: Just noticed your little comment about Telltale's games "sucking balls". If you don't like them, why are you even here?

[BagginsKQ]

Lambonius being rude, is Lambonius being Lambonius... Pay him no mind... I generally ignore him when he gets that way ;).

Rude is probably his middle name...

In anycase,

the hardest entries in the series (such as KQ3)
Personally the only 'difficulty' in that game imo, comes from the watching the timer, and making sure you don't screw up in front of Manannan...

The puzzles are mainly 'laughable' and the way the game was written, you might as well have been reading a walkthrough...

The game doesn't even really have many puzzles traditional... Instead puzzles are replaced with a treasure hunt for items listed in the manual (yes most items in the game are associated with spells, and those spell ingredients are listed in the manual)... So there isn't even much 'discovery' as there could have been, if you had to figure out what items you can get on your own...

After you find all the items needed for the spells, its relatively obvious that spells will be used to solve nearly every other puzzle in the game... You are told how and where every spell is properly used in the spell book. I.E. storm brew must be used in a foggy/misty area. Knowing that, there is only one other spell with an 'offensive' capability that could be used against the evil wizard... Beyond that, about the only thing in the game that you are not explicitely told to get in the manual is the porridge, although it does suggest you need to have some kind of food you can hide the cat cookie in to disguise it... (which might as well be telling you you need the porridge, since none of the foods in the house count).

I suppose the game might be more difficulty if you don't read the manual, but at some point you will have to, to prepare the spells... Those spells make up 99% of the puzzles in the game...

I'd place KQ3 as some of the worst puzzle design of the series, not so much because they aren't interesting puzzles, but because the puzzles are almost fully exposed to you, including solutions in the manual, due to the nature of the puzzles...

KQ6 did the spell system much better...

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Overall, my memories of KQ1-4 are shaky at best. I generally just remember having a tough time, but these were also my first time plays a Sierra game besides a chunk of KQ6 some years earlier and Adventure games in general. I suppose it's one of the reasons that I like the later games more, because I don't remember having as many snags or frustrating moments - although KQ5 did get to me a couple times, I'm pretty sure.

I kind of miss the days when the manuals were really interesting to read and gave you more insight into the games. These days many manuals are paper thin or have 10 pages in 4 languages. :<

[MusicallyInspired]

You know, both you and Thom seem to be very rude.

Lamb is just being Lamb. Roll it off your back. But how was Thom rude?

You obviously never developed the same adventure puzzle sense that a lot of other adventure players have developed from playing classic adventure games. That's not a knock at you it's just the truth. But just because you had problems with puzzles doesn't mean everyone else did. I've said this already, but that's the simplest way I can put it.

Also, we're here because we once did like Telltale to a degree and were hoping they'd get better after time and practice working and refining their products within their business model. Instead they got worse and they're just churning out crap after crap gameplay experiences focusing more on story and cinematic camera angles. Which are all GREAT! But worth absolutely SQUAT if the gameplay is lacking. The puzzles are dirt easy and the games ridiculously short. Their business model was not made for me or for other classic adventure players and certainly not made with the KING'S QUEST game design style in mind, arguably the mother of all classic graphic adventures. King's Quest was always more about the gameplay experience than the story. I'm fairly certain they're going to screw it up and make it a shallow empty shell of what it once was, I don't care how good or bad the story is (I actually believe that Telltale has some skilled writers). I'm still here because I'm waiting to see just how King's Quest is going to turn out and if I'll be wrong. I seriously doubt it, though. And if it fails to meet my expectations I'm outta here. Honestly, if KQ wasn't on the horizon I'd already be gone after playing BTTF for the first time.

Perhaps we need a separate discussion for things like "what puzzles did you find overly complex?" or "what did you feel was easier than other parts?" Because apparently I have been unable to gleam this information from previous messages in this thread.

We've already had a nice handful of those threads. They all ended up in arguments because the Telltale fanboys who accept everything they throw at them can't accept or understand that some people want more challenge. Basically, even if we told you you wouldn't get it. Your side of the fence seems incapable of comprehending our reasoning of the issue.

Again, I'm not attempting to be insulting at all, I'm just relating my experience with this debate here in the past. That just seems to be the way it is.

[BagginsKQ]

I started with Infocom... and other early text adventures... (my cousin had an old Apple IIGS with a few of the games), and some others on a C64...

King's Quest V was the first Sierra adventure game I played I think (there might have been one other but I can't remember which)... I was playing with it with a friend at his house...

Those games were challenging...

KQ1-4 were easy in comparison when I got around to them... Dead Ends? Eh, not that bad, just restart from an early save... or restart completely if I was stupid enough to forget to save enough...

The games aren't really all that long, to get back to the point where you left off...

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Eh, I think the story is often more important than the puzzles, in fact it's one of the reasons I have issues with some western RPGs because their storylines are spread so thin it's hard to keep interested. I'll always weigh how I felt about a game's storyline first and foremost, followed by gameplay. A good storyline can keep me interested if the gameplay isn't that great, and likewise a game that's really fun may hold my interest even without a good storyline, but I definitely put the storyline first most of the time.

And you're right, I probably didn't develop that adventure game puzzle sense. Not unlike how I don't have super sharp reflexes when it comes to "skill" games, nor do I have much "luck" in games where that's a factor.

In a sense, Roberta's notion of having the game replace the movie or the book is sometimes what I look for in a gaming experience, and it's why sometimes I prefer an easier game with a great storyline than a hard game with little narrative. When I replay games like Blazing Dragons, Discworld, LA Noire, and Gabriel Knight, I'm not necessarily doing it for a challenge or to test my puzzle solving, I'm playing them so I can enjoy the story, the characters, and the adventure.

It could just be that I have a different idea of what adventure means than others. Maybe that's why I don't really care if Telltale's games are a bit easy compared to stuff like Simon the Sorcerer and Curse of Monkey Island. I do enjoy solving puzzles and feeling good when I figure out a tricky one, but I don't really like being stuck on something for more than an hour (a puzzle, I mean, not a game). I just don't have the time to devote a whole day to figuring out what to do next in a given situation. I'd suspect that is true for a lot of people.

Doesn't mean I speed through, I certainly enjoy playing at my own leisurely pace.

[thom-22]

You know, both you and Thom seem to be very rude. I know I was a bit rude in my original post in here but a lot of that was frustration at what I was reading lashing out.
...
What's your excuse?

I confess I am more than a little perplexed as to how to respond to a statement that includes both an apology and a demand for a reciprocal apology, and then concludes with such an antagonistic statement.

I apologize for my rudeness. I am always willing to agree to disagree on matters of opinion or perspective. But I refuse to accept that questioning the conclusions of arguments based on overstatement, flawed reasoning and, especially, mischaracterization of my views, is the equivalent of being rude.

In his first response to you Lamb explained quite reasonably that the views to which you were reacting in your initial post are not as extreme as you implied. In my second response I tried to demonstrate that they're not as inflexible as they might seem. I tried to clarify my position and posed some questions I hoped would encourage clarification of yours. But you have never directly addressed any of the points we've raised or given any indication that you're willing to consider anything except your own personal experiences. I don't know how you can expect to have rational communication -- whether discussion or argument -- on that basis. As such, I'll end my response here.

This is why Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert are gaming gods.

Thanks for linking that. :) I think I cried a little when Gilbert said, "I love crafting the puzzles," and Schafer said much the same later. It's a welcome change from hearing game designers talk about composing camera shots and creating dramatic tension.

[MusicallyInspired]

Eh, I think the story is often more important than the puzzles, in fact it's one of the reasons I have issues with some western RPGs because their storylines are spread so thin it's hard to keep interested. I'll always weigh how I felt about a game's storyline first and foremost, followed by gameplay. A good storyline can keep me interested if the gameplay isn't that great, and likewise a game that's really fun may hold my interest even without a good storyline, but I definitely put the storyline first most of the time.

So, as long as Call of Duty has a great story you'd enjoy the game? What about Duke Nukem 3D? Or how about Tetris? Games are games for a reason. They are first and foremost about INTERACTIVITY. Otherwise it might as well be a movie. Watch a Let's Play. There's very little difference if all you care about is the story.

It could just be that I have a different idea of what adventure means than others.

Most definitely. And this is the biggest difference between those that love BTTF and JP by Telltale and those who don't and are dreading King's Quest, because King's Quest was never first and foremost about drama. Like it or not the original King's Quest games were designed the way they were and as such garnered a fan community who appreciates generally most of the design choices throughout the series. If Telltale "Telltale-ifies" it than it ceases to be what it was. We'd rather leave King's Quest dead. I really don't care about what goes on in Graham's mind and what emotional turmoil he's going through at a given moment in the game. I care about what goes on in my mind while playing the game. Roberta's mantra was always that YOU are the player. It matters how the game makes you feel in your interaction with it. That can be a fine line, granted, but the line is easily distinguishable by the fact that YOU are Graham, you don't merely CONTROL Graham, which is the approach Telltale takes.

I just don't have the time to devote a whole day to figuring out what to do next in a given situation. I'd suspect that is true for a lot of people.

Who says you have to figure it all out in one day? Spread it out. Leave the game and think about it and come back later. That's how they were meant to be played. No classic adventure was meant to be played through in one sitting. Like I said earlier, people have a problem with instant gratification. Ron and Tim brought this point out in the interview video very well.

Doesn't mean I speed through, I certainly enjoy playing at my own leisurely pace.

So which is it?

Thanks for linking that. :) I think I cried a little when Gilbert said, "I love crafting the puzzles," and Schafer said much the same later. It's a welcome change from hearing game designers talk about composing camera shots and creating dramatic tension.

No doubt!

[BagginsKQ]

There are some discussions within the movie industry that it might actually be dieing! Not alot of people going out to buy tickets anymore... Alot of big name movies are losing alot of money, or just breaking even...

The game industry might actually be surpassing the movie industry...

[Anakin Skywalker]

There are some discussions within the movie industry that it might actually be dieing! Not alot of people going out to buy tickets anymore... Alot of big name movies are losing alot of money, or just breaking even...

The game industry might actually be surpassing the movie industry...

That happens every once in a while though...People stop going to the movies generally, and then it restarts again. It's kinda cyclic.

I for one am not damning TT's game before it comes out. I think it will be good. At least give the game a chance before you see a screenshot. It's almost like some (embittered by their group not being given the license) want to kill the game before it's even out of the gate and ensure it's cancelled or given bad word of mouth. The people who have decided they're going to hate this game, and they know who they are, are truly bizarre in still posting here.

[thom-22]

I for one am not damning TT's game before it comes out. I think it will be good. At least give the game a chance before you see a screenshot. It's almost like some (embittered by their group not being given the license) want to kill the game before it's even out of the gate and ensure it's cancelled or given bad word of mouth. The people who have decided they're going to hate this game, and they know who they are, are truly bizarre in still posting here.

Oh, good. More overstatement, faulty logic, and mischaracterization of others' views.

1. Nobody in this forum has the power to kill the game before it's out.
2. I am confident that my fellow adventure gamers will judge the game for themselves (as will I), even if I badmouth it from here to kingdom come.
3. Nobody hates a game that doesn't exist yet; we hate the design philosophy espoused by the company making the game.
4. I am not a member of any group involved in game development.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Oh, good. More overstatement, faulty logic, and mischaracterization of others' views.

1. Nobody in this forum has the power to kill the game before it's out.
2. I am confident that my fellow adventure gamers will judge the game for themselves (as will I), even if I badmouth it from here to kingdom come.
3. Nobody hates a game that doesn't exist yet; we hate the design philosophy espoused by the company making the game.
4. I am not a member of any group involved in game development.

My statement was not directed at you.

1) No, but if enough negative word of mouth is built up before the game's release, pressure could be applied to the point that cancelling the game seems better than risking it.
2) I think there is a large contingent of people who have already for the most part made up their minds about this game, given 1) Their feelings on TT and 2) That their team/group wasn't picked. They feel since they were involved in fan projects, THEIR GROUP and not TT deserved the license, and these people will do what they can to spread bad word of mouth before it's out to dampen enthusiasm and sales among less die hard fans.
3) I've seen a lot of negativity directed toward even the very concept of this game simply because of who is making it. It is odd. I doubt if an action game company were given the license that there would be this much hostility.
4) Again, was not directed at you.

[BagginsKQ]

Hmm, I wish we knew more about the cancelled version of KQ9 that Silicon Knights was working on...

[thom-22]

My statement was not directed at you.

1) No, but if enough negative word of mouth is built up before the game's release, pressure could be applied to the point that cancelling the game seems better than risking it.
2) I think there is a large contingent of people who have already for the most part made up their minds about this game, given 1) Their feelings on TT and 2) That their team/group wasn't picked. They feel since they were involved in fan projects, THEIR GROUP and not TT deserved the license, and these people will do what they can to spread bad word of mouth before it's out to dampen enthusiasm and sales among less die hard fans.
3) I've seen a lot of negativity directed toward even the very concept of this game simply because of who is making it. It is odd. I doubt if an action game company were given the license that there would be this much hostility.
4) Again, was not directed at you.

1. I seriously doubt that.
2. See 3 and 4.
3. I don't find that odd at all -- the negativity is directed toward the company, not a game that doesn't exist yet.
4. But I am a counter-example to your theory about motivations. If one person could arrive at these views without having any involvement in other game groups, you should consider that those who are involved might have arrived at their views independently of their involvement.

[Anakin Skywalker]

1. I seriously doubt that.
2. See 3 and 4.
3. I don't find that odd at all -- the negativity is directed toward the company, not a game that doesn't exist yet.
4. But I am a counter-example to your theory about motivations. If one person could arrive at these views without having any involvement in other game groups, you should consider that those who are involved might have arrived at their views independently of their involvement.

Oh, believe me, I understand that fan developer bitterness is not the cause of most peoples' unease. I have my own worries with regard to this game, but expect (and hope) for it to be good. I can understand totally arguments for why we should be worried, but I prefer to remain optimistic until we see at least a screenshot or a preview of the game.

But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.

[thom-22]

But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.

You're entitled to think what you want about other people's motivations (I certainly have all kinds of ideas along those lines ;)), but speculating about them on public forums is only asking for pushback. It doesn't really matter what people's motivations are anyway -- they're not prohibited from posting their views (within forum rules), and their statements can be judged on their own merits.

Oh, and if Activision was looking for a reason to cancel this game, I hardly think they'd care about comments on this forum when all they'd need to do is read the reviews of Jurassic Park, ROTFL.

[BagginsKQ]

Despite the reviews, I don't think Jurassic Park lost money has it? Isn't Telltale still making a 'stealing' so to speak? These aren't high budget releases to begin with? Built upon a standardized and quickly modifiable engine...

When it all comes down to it, that's what business people want, the moolah...

[Lambonius]

But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.

I certainly hope you're not referring to me. Especially considering I thought you knew full well that IA has never had any aspirations towards anything commercial with regards to Sierra IPs.

The only person who ever exhibited anything even approaching "license jealousy" was AGC2 on the AGDI forums, and that was quite some time ago. I don't even know if he's ever posted here.

[thom-22]

Despite the reviews, I don't think Jurassic Park lost money has it?

I doubt it lost money; it's Jurassic Park after all. All I know is they were quick to post when BTTF became their best-selling game, but I haven't seen anything about JP so far.

Isn't Telltale still making a 'stealing' so to speak? These aren't high budget releases to begin with? Built upon a standardized and quickly modifiable engine...

When it all comes down to it, that's what business people want, the moolah...

But Activision would assess it not just for whether it was Telltale's most profitable game, but against some estimate of the possible profit a JP title could hypothetically generate. And I would have to guess that Telltale's JP didn't come anywhere near that.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, I guess Anakin's ban is over.

Anakin, nobody here involved with a fangame group is upset at TTG for being picked over them, and even if they were saying that they hate the game for that reason that would be incredibly childish. I resent the insinuation you're making in this regard. I have my reservations about Telltale's games AS A WHOLE, not just King's Quest. I'm upset about King's Quest because it's incredibly more valuable to me than anything else Telltale would ever pick up (save for Space Quest) and stands to be damaged the most by Telltale's CURRENT business model and game design philosophy.

Yes, since I've spent some time in fangame development with people who have loved Sierra games all their lives and put all the attention, love, and dedication into doing the series justice then I of course have reservations and doubts about Telltale's ability to pull off something worthy of the King's Quest name. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Telltale being "picked over me or some other team". At all.

And if you're not talking about me either, my point still stands. You're assuming people are immature and childish in dealing with their feelings on this issue and you're bound to get a lot of pushback as Thom has said. It also makes you out to be incredibly condescending and snobbish. So stop it.

[BagginsKQ]

Anakin, I think you are treading on the same arguement that got you banned previously...

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I'm just gonna drop out of this entire discussion. I've apologized multiple times yet it still doesn't seem good enough. It's pretty clear my opinions are unwelcome here. And apparently if someone has even the slightest trouble wording their sentences, it's going to be picked apart by somebody with far too much time on their hands.

I've got enough stress in my life without more being piled on by silly internet discussions with people aren't even trying to see things from my perspective or worse, couldn't care less about opinions that don't align with their own. If some of you can't accept that there are actually people 1) like Telltale's games, 2) thought the later KQ games were better than the earlier ones, and/or 3) that challenge isn't everything.. then I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do or say that'll make any difference.

Granted, some or all of those things may be inaccurate "generalizations" which I apparently make without realizing it. But you know what? I'm leaving this section altogether, so why not just go out the way I came in, I suppose. I tried to be nice after that first post but I guess nobody cares. I'm sorry to Baggins cause he was really fun to talk to and other had interesting insight and stuff, but I just don't want anymore of this. I don't want to feel like I have to constantly be on the defensive every gods-damned time I say something.

Hell, I'm in such a stirred up defensive "panic" cause I have issues with unnecessary confrontations, I'm pretty much saying whatever comes to my mind at this point. It was so bad the other day I couldn't even sleep. Gods, sometimes I wish I'd never found the internet..

[Lambonius]

I'm just gonna drop out of this entire discussion. I've apologized multiple times yet it still doesn't seem good enough. It's pretty clear my opinions are unwelcome here. And apparently if someone has even the slightest trouble wording their sentences, it's going to be picked apart by somebody with far too much time on their hands.

I've got enough stress in my life without more being piled on by silly internet discussions with people aren't even trying to see things from my perspective or worse, couldn't care less about opinions that don't align with their own. If some of you can't accept that there are actually people 1) like Telltale's games, 2) thought the later KQ games were better than the earlier ones, and/or 3) that challenge isn't everything.. then I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do or say that'll make any difference.

Granted, some or all of those things may be inaccurate "generalizations" which I apparently make without realizing it. But you know what? I'm leaving this section altogether, so why not just go out the way I came in, I suppose. I tried to be nice after that first post but I guess nobody cares. I'm sorry to Baggins cause he was really fun to talk to and other had interesting insight and stuff, but I just don't want anymore of this. I don't want to feel like I have to constantly be on the defensive every gods-damned time I say something.

Ah. And there we have it, folks. The old "reverse victimhood" troll. He's an elusive little bugger, isn't he? Note the telltale refusal to acknowledge the existence of reasonably explained counterpoints to his arguments, and the classic waiting until the conversation has moved on to drop back in and dramatically announce both victimhood status and ostentatious exit. Isn't nature grand?

[MusicallyInspired]

When did anyone say that they didn't accept that people who like Telltale existed? I'm just going to speak my mind about what I believe. The only reason I'm talking about it here is because you asked and I'm trying to explain. That's all. No need to take anything personal. Nobody is being as hostile as you're making us out to be. We're just having a debate.

[Lambonius]

Nobody is being as hostile as you're making us out to be.

Well, to be fair, I am kind of being a dick. ;)

[exo]

Hiroshi - you never said anything worht a damn the entire time you were here. Don't apologize to anyone for leaving, no one really cares.

There ya go lambonius, now your not the only dick.

And in regards to Anakin's statement that so many of us are pre-biased:

I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.

I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?

It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.

But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.

So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.

Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?

Blaming it on bitter fan game developers is just moronic, and frankly it blindly ignores the shortcomings of telltales recent track record.

When a company gets licenses to things I really enjoy, like Walking Dead nad King's Quest, yet at the same time can make me extremely leery of wanting to play them... well hell, that takes some real talent.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Hiroshi - you never said anything worht a damn the entire time you were here. Don't apologize to anyone for leaving, no one really cares.

There ya go lambonius, now your not the only dick.

And in regards to Anakin's statement that so many of us are pre-biased:

I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.

I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?

It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.

But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.

So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.

Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?

Blaming it on bitter fan game developers is just moronic, and frankly it blindly ignores the shortcomings of telltales recent track record.

When a company gets licenses to things I really enjoy, like Walking Dead nad King's Quest, yet at the same time can make me extremely leery of wanting to play them... well hell, that takes some real talent.

The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?

[thom-22]

We're just having a debate.

Yep. You know, I have some sympathy for people who think that arguments about ideas are the equivalent of personal attacks. My mother was like that. She'd have the same reaction to two adult relatives debating politics from opposite sides as she would to two children fighting over a toy. Conflict and confrontation -- she just couldn't have it.

But I don't know what I'm supposed to do when someone comes to a public discussion forum with an incredibly antagonistic diatribe and then refuses to address the individual points rationally, thinking that generic apologies obligate rivals to immediately concede. I tried to back off after an admittedly dickish bitchy response. But I don't see that I should just sit around and let repeated misrepresentations of my views go unanswered.

Oh, well...

[exo]

The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?

A: I never said the company sucked. I said their recent games have not been something I feel is worth my money.

B: Why I am here? Pretty simple. There aren't any other official Kings Quest games coming out. So like it or not, this is the place to talk about it. Also, I post here because some people on these boards are worth talking to and have interesting opinions (rather than simply making ridiculous posts every other day asking what flavor of ice cream sandwich is grahams favorite).

C: I'm not the one making ridiculous assumptions about why people aren't happy with the game. So far it seems your assumptions about why people here aren't excited about the game have been wrong.

D: If you don't like me or my opinions, good. I'm sure you'll loose your cool again and get banned again anyways.

Pretty sad when the telltale fanboy gets banned while those who are critical of the game's potential are doing just fine.

Next time you are looking for a topic to start, why not poll everyone on why they think the game is going to have problems. It would be a lot more productive then assuming we are all bitter fan game developers.

[BagginsKQ]

Pretty sad when the telltale fanboy gets banned while those who are critical of the game's potential are doing just fine.
Ironic that some of Telltales strongest supporters are the first to get banned :confused:...

As opposed to its its most outspoken critics? Some who are quite vocal about their distrust of specific Telltale employees! :D

[KuroShiro]

Well, to be fair, I am kind of being a dick. ;)

Yes, but that is just sort of your default state. Without the absence of dickery, can dickery really exist? :eek:

Though to be fair you are actually being fairly restrained in this thread as compared to others. Perhaps we are witnessing the birth of a new and gentler Lambonius.

[MusicallyInspired]

The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?

You continually bring up this point every time this discussion comes up and it's annoying the gray matter straight out of my ear canals. I have said continuously to this point that if King's Quest by Telltale does not satisfy my expectations then I'm gone.

Besides that, I still have some friends and acquaintances here that I like to have interesting discussions with. And I still have hope that Telltale can turn around, which is why I choose to continually voice my opinions on the matter instead of just sitting there believing that they'll do a spectacular job without any evidence to the contrary at all, especially after their most recent track record. But King's Quest will be the final deciding factor here.

Despite what you think, game dev forums do not exist solely for fans to come and worship them and everything they do or say.

[Blackthorne519]

I missed a lot of boo-hoo-hoo-ing in here, boy!

Eh, bitching or praising - at this point, either is useless because there's no game yet. Hell, there's not even a fucking screenshot, a shred of information about the game or story.... there's just a title and the fact that TellTale is supposedly developing a King's Quest game. Even that's up for grabs, because we haven't seen a thing!


Bt

[blueskirt]

Thanks, Lamb. Backatcha. Have you played Gemini Rue?

Have any of you played Ben There Dan That and it's excellent sequel Time Gentlemen Please?

It got bucket loads of humor and nods to LucasArts adventure games, multiple puzzles to tackle at the same time, inventory puzzles like they made in the days (the puzzles in the sequel are on par with the brilliant puzzle design of Day Of The Tentacle) and last but not least, you have five icons to interact with your surrounding and a unique response was written for every icon/hotspot possibility, plus several more for all items on items possibilities.

The first game is freeware, the sequel is sold for the lowly price of five bucks.

[thom-22]

Have any of you played Ben There Dan That and it's excellent sequel Time Gentlemen Please?

No, I've seen these but wasn't crazy about the art style. If the gameplay is good and the story entertaining, though... I think I'll toss these in the cart the next time I make a purchase on Steam. :)

[exo]

got them both for a dollar or something a few years back on a steam sale.... they have kept my unplayed games list warm since then.

[thesporkman]

King's Quest was briefly brought up in this interview with Dan Connors:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/discussing-the-walking-dead-fables-and-the-rebirth-of-adventure-games-with-telltales-ceo/

Then there’s King’s Quest. Obviously classic Sierra titles have big pull with fans of adventure games. What motivated that IP pick-up? Was it a move to really get back to the roots of where adventure games were born?

I think the LucasArts experience [that we had with Monkey Island] was a good one, so we thought it would be similar. It’s certainly got a lot of hardcore fans. We’re really just trying to get our brains around the stuff that’s currently the focus right now.

It sounds like they're still in the "research" phase, and no serious design work has been done yet.

There's also some interesting stuff in there about Telltale's views on game design and the notion of a "Telltale" genre distinct from the pure adventure genre.

[Lambonius]

the notion of a "Telltale" genre distinct from the pure adventure genre.

You mean adventure games stripped of everything that made classic adventure games fun? ;)

[Blackthorne519]

Research phase? No one's called ME yet!


Bt

[mgiuca]

I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.

I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?

It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.

But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.

So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.

Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?

Hang on, exo. I just re-read your post a couple of times, and it doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe you've already expressed your opinion elsewhere on this forum, but this post alone doesn't give me any reason to be wary of Telltale, except maybe buying their collectors boxes.

Your argument is basically this:
1. Sam & Max was okay -- not your preferred style, but still fun.
2. Strong Bad was okay -- not your preferred style, but still fun.
3. Back to the Future collector's edition didn't have any interesting extra material.
4. Later, Back to the Future was on sale, and by that point you had already bought it.
5. Therefore, Telltale should not be given the benefit of the doubt.

Did I miss something? You don't seem to have had any bad experience with the games themselves, just with the packaging and pricing. You had better get used to it: collectors editions often come with useless drawings, and games regularly go on sale and it's easy to miss them. Was there anything you actually disliked about the games?

I personally played Sam & Max, Strong Bad and Jurassic Park, and all of them were "okay" for me, but Back to the Future was absolutely brilliant in my opinion. So I am super hopeful for King's Quest.

[thesporkman]

You mean adventure games stripped of everything that made classic adventure games fun? ;)

Yeah, that.

[Chyron8472]

Was there anything you actually disliked about the games?

At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me explain...


It's a matter of progression:

-- As TTG's production line has progressed, each successive game has had more and more bugs and and glitches--some annoying, some game-breaking.

-- Tales of Monkey Island often (and noticeably) uses the same four base character models for various characters.

-- Certain episodes of The Devil's Playhouse are notably (though, perhaps not annoyingly) easy.

-- Hector has ben said to have various problems in it's PC port (though I have not personally confirmed this), and TTG was responsible for the PC port.

-- Poker Night at the Inventory, though only a Texas Hold 'Em poker game, has extremely high hardware requirements to even get the game running at a reasonable graphics quality without making the mouse lag; it also had so many bugs at launch that TTG was forced to release a patch very shortly afterward.

-- BTTF's difficulty level is extremely low; has a hint system that, though it can be limited, can not be turned off entirely; has no ability to combine inventory items (meaning there are no puzzles that require doing so); the game gives you a choice of what name people should call you, but they don't always call you the correct one (which falls under "bugs" but since this is a story-driven game, it is extremely frequent); numbers of hotspots are very sparse, and exploration of the environment beyond driving the plot forward is extremely limited.

-- Jurassic Park is a QTE game, which is self-explanatory. Also, certain TTG employees were found, under the guise of average users, to have been spamming the Metacritic page for this game with numerous misleadingly-high ratings in an attempt to artificially inflate its perceived quality.


--The Walking Dead was first reported by TTG devs to be a QTE game; lately it seems that while it is no longer QTE-based, it is still slated to be different (ie. easier) than most adventure game fans would likely prefer:The game is also really not about skill as a puzzle solver, though there are puzzles, too. The game's about exploring the story, and about making choices which have an impact on the people close to you. [...] there aren't that many deep mechanics, there is the story and the world and the characters to explore and figure out how they work, and overcoming obstacles in the narrative to advance.In effect, there is no reason to suspect The Walking Dead as being any more difficult than BTTF.


On top of this, recent deluxe edition sets are sub-par: the TOMI Deluxe Edition includes a map which looks like a cropped screenshot printed on a restaurant cloth napkin, and a DVD slipcover that is mostly white with cardboard cutout-dolls printed on the back; and the BTTF deluxe edition is said to be worse (though I haven't investigated precisely why.)

So you can see why we are suspicious about decline in quality of TTG's products.

[thesporkman]

On top of this, recent deluxe edition sets are sub-par: the TOMI Deluxe Edition includes a map which looks like a cropped screenshot printed on a restaurant cloth napkin, and a DVD slipcover that is mostly white with cardboard cutout-dolls printed on the back; and the BTTF deluxe edition is said to be worse (though I haven't investigated precisely why.)

The Jurassic Park Deluxe Edition was pretty damned amazing. Way better than the ones for ToMI and BttF, and fancier and more ambitious than the Sam and Max case files. Way better than it had any right to be, considering the game it was for. Lots of really cool, believable props that seem to have fallen right out the world of the films, a really clever and creative "new InGen employee kit" theme, and nary a cheap, slapped-on logo in sight.

Except for that one huge, horrible thing with the shipping labels being slapped right onto the game box and mailing it as-is and not in another box, it was pretty great.

[Irishmile]

I ordered other items with mine.. so it showed up in a bigger box in perfect condition.

[mgiuca]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me explain... It's a matter of progression: (snip)

So you can see why we are suspicious about decline in quality of TTG's products.

Okay, fair enough. (My point was that the comment I was addressing didn't give any of these reasons, just complained about the packaging and pricing.)

Still, I don't fully agree about the decline in quality. Maybe I'm just getting older, and busier, but I don't really have time for games that require me to spend days getting nowhere. I want to be able to get through a couple of puzzles in an evening, and not have to use a walkthrough. I thought the Telltale games, especially BTTF, were just the right difficulty for that. I still found BTTF challenging, but I didn't get stuck for long periods of time or have to consult a walkthrough.

I think the problem with the difficulty in older games -- yes, including King's Quest -- is that it is not "legitimate" difficulty. I often find myself resorting to the old point-and-click routine of trying every object with every other object. That sort of difficulty is not enjoyable, because you aren't actually working anything out logically. So I am personally happy to play a Telltale game with the difficulty of BTTF.

As for the QTEs, I agree (with pretty much the whole industry) they suck. Jurassic Park wasn't really an adventure game. Oh well -- I doubt they'll put QTEs in King's Quest. It wouldn't fit the theme at all.

[MusicallyInspired]

That's the problem. More and more people just keep developing extremely short attention spans. We only have enough time to work out a game in one evening! Or one week tops! God forbid we have to take a few months to finish a game! Lives were just as busy back in the 80s and nobody ever complained. We're just running a mile a minute now and we can't stop or slow down. The video game industry is catering to that, which I disagree with.

[thom-22]

I think the problem with the difficulty in older games -- yes, including King's Quest -- is that it is not "legitimate" difficulty. I often find myself resorting to the old point-and-click routine of trying every object with every other object. That sort of difficulty is not enjoyable, because you aren't actually working anything out logically. So I am personally happy to play a Telltale game with the difficulty of BTTF.

If you thought the difficulty was "not enjoyable" and "not legitimate", then why did you play them? I think the "illegitimacy" of KQ's difficulty is way overblown. Lots of people enjoyed the tricky puzzles and the need to thoroughly explore and experiment before you knew how to progress.

I understand that many people like easier games these days, and there are many easy games for them to play. Why should this particular game, building on a distinctive legacy that was enjoyed by so many, be made in spite of that legacy instead of appealing to it? Be made for people who complain about the originals' difficulty level rather than those who relished it?

Suggesting that KQ be turned into a casual game with trivial BTTF-style interactions is the equivalent of someone suggesting that a great novel series be continued as magazine articles because she doesn't have time to read novels, or someone suggesting a film series known for deep philosophical content be continued as action flicks because he doesn't want to think that hard. Fans of those series would be justifiably outraged at such ideas, especially as there already are a ton of magazines/movies that would be more suitable for people who prefer that kind of thing.

[Lambonius]

If you thought the difficulty was "not enjoyable" and "not legitimate", then why did you play them? I think the "illegitimacy" of KQ's difficulty is way overblown. Lots of people enjoyed the tricky puzzles and the need to thoroughly explore and experiment before you knew how to progress.

I understand that many people like easier games these days, and there are many easy games for them to play. Why should this particular game, building on a distinctive legacy that was enjoyed by so many, be made in spite of that legacy instead of appealing to it? Be made for people who complain about the originals' difficulty level rather than those who relished it?

Suggesting that KQ be turned into a casual game with trivial BTTF-style interactions is the equivalent of someone suggesting that a great novel series be continued as magazine articles because she doesn't have time to read novels, or someone suggesting a film series known for deep philosophical content be continued as action flicks because he doesn't want to think that hard. Fans of those series would be justifiably outraged at such ideas, especially as there already are a ton of magazines/movies that would be more suitable for people who prefer that kind of thing.

*standing ovation*

[exo]

Well written thom-22. It got me thinking, I fundamentally played lucasarts games and sierra games differently. My entire approach was different.

With a game like DoTT or Full Throttle, I just meandered around, trying to pick up items, and clicking on objects. I basically just sat back and enjoyed the scenery and the witty dialogue.

With KQ however, I was much more calculating in what I did. In KQ6, right off the bat when I came to the tree and had to choose a path, I was very reluctant to go towards the castle. It seemed too obvious, and I felt the need to go towards the less obvious village. I also trained myself to watch for characters animations and new people in scenes I had visited before. I also saved anytime I did anything even remotely needed.

Long story short, it was more tense... there was more on the line.

That is not to say one style of game is better than the other. I just think both styles have their place, and I think the root of my issue with a KQ remake is the possible loss of this aspect which would lead it to just being another wander & click game.

The joys of a lucasarts game for me was the art and dialogue while the primary joy of a sierra game for me was solving a puzzle, maze, etc without dying... =)

[Arjak]

I agree with exo; part of King's Quest (or any adventure game where death was a facet) was knowing that things could take a turn for the worst at any moment. You did have to be cautious. An adventure game where you can't die has a much more "laid back" feeling. This is OK for something like Monkey Island, but part of the King's Quest experience was death, the sense of danger.

Now, on the other hand, I also feel that dead ends are simply bad game design; no player should be forced to go through that aggravation. That doesn't mean that players should have their hand held through the whole game. If a player makes a mistake that doesn't quite warrant death, but should still be problematic for them, perhaps a better solution would be to force a hard puzzle, or a harder solution to a puzzle. Make it seem like a punishment, but still allow the player to progress if they try hard enough.

Let's use King's Quest 5 as an example. There are countless ways to dead end yourself in that game, more than any adventurer should have to put up with. Still, could you imagine what the game would be like if this happened?

*Player has just made the snake on the mountain path go away. He tries to go into the mountains...*

Narrator: Graham hesitates! Is he truly ready to scale the dangerous mountains? Perhaps not...

Yeah, that would really add to the sense of danger and suspension of disbelief...

If a game doesn't challenge a player enough, he's bored. If he's challenged beyond reason, he's frustrated. Look, Telltale; try not to hold the player's hand in this one, but don't arbitrarily punish them either. KQ6 is considered the best by most fans not just for its better story, but also for its better puzzle design. Use that as a example.

[Lambonius]

I think a great way to not only add replay value, but also challenge to an adventure game would be to make one in which there were multiple possible outcomes, with varying levels of "goodness" that changed based on how you solved certain puzzles or handled certain situations. If you missed a crucial item in the beginning, the game would still be completable, you just wouldn't get the best ending. Kind of taking a page from Mass Effect (with the exception of the 3rd game's ending(s), which are just...well...epic, epic, fails.)

I would be into a KQ game that stripped out dead ends in favor of multiple endings or solutions. I think that's the way to go in this day and age.

[KuroShiro]

I would be into a KQ game that stripped out dead ends in favor of multiple endings or solutions. I think that's the way to go in this day and age.

That is basically what KQ6 and 7 did, though granted they both have only 2 possible endings. And probably not as much variation in puzzle solving as you're implying it would have.

[Lambonius]

That is basically what KQ6 and 7 did, though granted they both have only 2 possible endings. And probably not as much variation in puzzle solving as you're implying it would have.

You're right--they did start to go that way, but then they just...stopped.

Nowadays, especially in the wake of "player-choice" type games like Mass Effect, I think adventure game replay value could really be revitalized. Of course, a company like Telltale, with their shit quality standards and short development times, is not likely to be the company that takes this step.

[KuroShiro]

You're right--they did start to go that way, but then they just...stopped.

Nowadays, especially in the wake of "player-choice" type games like Mass Effect, I think adventure game replay value could really be revitalized. Of course, a company like Telltale, with their shit quality standards and short development times, is not likely to be the company that takes this step.

I think it is a good idea, but that it'll also be challenging for a developer to pull off. This is more because of economics than design challenges; for better or worse, in today's market an adventure game can't be expected to sell more than a couple hundred thousand copies, and making multiple paths is expensive.

It would be cool if TTG did if for KQ, but given the episodic structure of the game and their tight release schedules I sort of doubt it will happen. At the moment, Tim Schaefer's project is probably with the one with the best chance of trying something like this. It's certainly worth suggesting when the backer forums open up.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I agree with exo; part of King's Quest (or any adventure game where death was a facet) was knowing that things could take a turn for the worst at any moment. You did have to be cautious. An adventure game where you can't die has a much more "laid back" feeling. This is OK for something like Monkey Island, but part of the King's Quest experience was death, the sense of danger.

Now, on the other hand, I also feel that dead ends are simply bad game design; no player should be forced to go through that aggravation. That doesn't mean that players should have their hand held through the whole game. If a player makes a mistake that doesn't quite warrant death, but should still be problematic for them, perhaps a better solution would be to force a hard puzzle, or a harder solution to a puzzle. Make it seem like a punishment, but still allow the player to progress if they try hard enough.

Let's use King's Quest 5 as an example. There are countless ways to dead end yourself in that game, more than any adventurer should have to put up with. Still, could you imagine what the game would be like if this happened?

*Player has just made the snake on the mountain path go away. He tries to go into the mountains...*

Narrator: Graham hesitates! Is he truly ready to scale the dangerous mountains? Perhaps not...

Yeah, that would really add to the sense of danger and suspension of disbelief...

If a game doesn't challenge a player enough, he's bored. If he's challenged beyond reason, he's frustrated. Look, Telltale; try not to hold the player's hand in this one, but don't arbitrarily punish them either. KQ6 is considered the best by most fans not just for its better story, but also for its better puzzle design. Use that as a example.

Also, the fact that KQ6 is very dark. A REAL KQ game--not some silly family friendly game--Needs lots of darkness and sadness and sorrow. Take note Telltale. There's only one real KQ game, and that's called KQ6.

[MusicallyInspired]

KQ6 is not very dark. It's probably the most Disney-like of them all (and successfully so). Many people say KQ4 is dark, just because of zombies. Personally I don't see any of them as dark (besides MOE, and that's only in atmosphere, not story).

[Anakin Skywalker]

KQ6 is not very dark. It's probably the most Disney-like of them all (and successfully so). Many people say KQ4 is dark, just because of zombies. Personally I don't see any of them as dark (besides MOE, and that's only in atmosphere, not story).

Wut?
http://www.sierragamers.com/uploads/24082/The_Games/Kings_Quest_7_CD.jpg

[Chyron8472]

Also, the fact that KQ6 is very dark.What? No it's not. It's modererately dark, perhaps.

A REAL KQ game--not some silly family friendly game--Needs lots of darkness and sadness and sorrow.Like TSL? Pardon me, but what you're saying sounds overly dramatic for a King's Quest game (which is why I refuse to play TSL. ever.)

[Anakin Skywalker]

What? No it's not. It's modererately dark, perhaps.

Like TSL? Pardon me, but what you're saying sounds overly dramatic for a King's Quest game (which is why I refuse to play TSL. ever.)

http://images.wikia.com/kingsquest/images/c/ce/Alex_Samhain.jpg
http://http://www.postudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kq6_minotaur-e1278379956290.jpg

KQ6 was dark and gritty, sort of like The Dark Knight...Very true to life. Very realistic. Jane Jensen is an artistic genius who knows what life is: Life is darkness, sorrow and pain. Roberta Williams was just a hack who made baby stories. This is 2012. Not 1990. Leave your family friendly nonsense in 1990 and come to 2012. There's no room for that escapist light hearted fun crap now.

[KatieHal]

I have the strangest feeling of deja vu all over again....

[Anakin Skywalker]

I have the strangest feeling of deja vu all over again....

Has nothing to do with you guys, I just really dislike KQ6.

[KuroShiro]

What? No it's not. It's modererately dark, perhaps.

Like TSL? Pardon me, but what you're saying sounds overly dramatic for a King's Quest game (which is why I refuse to play TSL. ever.)
Chyron, he is trolling. Just ignore him.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Chyron, he is trolling. Just ignore him.

I was being more facetious than anything. Sort of mocking the pedestal KQ6 is put on.
I just prefer more adventurous stories to heavier, more grounded ones. It's why I prefer Star Wars (1977) to The Empire Strikes Back, for example.

[MusicallyInspired]

Wut?
http://www.sierragamers.com/uploads/24082/The_Games/Kings_Quest_7_CD.jpg

Yes yes yes, aside from the horrible attempts at mimicking Disney's animation, I still believe that KQ6 is much closer to a Disney movie in tone (a few of the 90s ones and earlier) than KQ7 by far. KQ7 was disjointed, confusing, and annoying on many levels. KQ6 felt more like a structured Disney-like adventure than KQ7 ever did.

KQ6 has a few dark elements yes, but then so do a lot of Disney movies. But KQ6 is not DARK. And it is a fantastic game. Just not what I consider the best in the series. There's certainly no reason to hate it. You just hate it because it's your fad. You can't come up with a genuine reason other than you hate it.

Also, I find the first Star Wars ok. Empire is better, but Jedi was my favourite.

[Gage33]

I personally really enjoyed KQ7. I dug the art style and the whole mood/tone of the game. The most memorable area for me was Ooga Booga land. I realize that the game felt different from other KQ games, but I thought it was done really well.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sNvOGfA_I_s/TyOEpgCZQjI/AAAAAAAAA1I/zXYxZX_Cp5Q/s1600/oogabooga.jpg

[BagginsKQ]

KQ6 is to Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid and Alladin, as KQ7 is more to Don Bluth, 101 dalmations, maybe Snow White (in tone/villains...)

[Anakin Skywalker]

KQ6 is to Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid and Alladin, as KQ7 is more to Don Bluth, 101 dalmations, maybe Snow White (in tone/villains...)

I always thought Don Bluth's best films were on par with Disney, personally.

[BagginsKQ]

On par (in some cases better), but a different style

Actually some of the Don Bluth stuff is darker than Disney...

[Irishmile]

I know its old news but maybe some of you have never noticed the similarities in the King's Quest 7 cover and Snow White...
http://www.movieposterdb.com/posters/09_10/1937/29583/l_29583_4da52798.jpghttp://www.sierraplanet.com/kingsquest7/gamebox1.jpg

And bonus.... anyone else play this old school adventure game? It was "ok" I have it still... have not played it in years.
http://pics.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/974471498-00.jpg

[Chyron8472]

http://images.wikia.com/kingsquest/images/c/ce/Alex_Samhain.jpg
http://http://www.postudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kq6_minotaur-e1278379956290.jpg

KQ6 was dark and gritty, sort of like The Dark Knight...Very true to life.Again, no it's not. The land of the dead is dark and gritty, but it is supposed to be. It's akin to the Greek Realm of Hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#Realm_of_Hades), complete with the ferryman Charon, and the River Styx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld#The_Ferryman). The atmosphere of this one small area does not make the whole game dark and gritty, especially considering that the entrance to the underworld can be livened up by playing a round of 'Dem Bones.

Very realistic.Yes, anthropomorphic guard dogs, Jollo's hi-res dialogue picture, and the entire cast of The Isle of Wonder are very realistic. Sure.

Jane Jensen is an artistic genius who knows what life is: Life is darkness, sorrow and pain.Indeed, she is. No, it isn't.

Life it what you make of it. To say that KQ6 is primarily indicative of the sorrow and pain of life is totally missing the style of the game. Yes, Cassima's parents were killed by the bad guy. Do we see it? No. We get told about it by Jollo, who--while I do like him--has a voice that can't help but sound bright and cheery even when he's sad. Do we also see into the mirror as Death watches it? No. We do have narration about it which is saddening, but while we do feel sorry for Samhain, we also feel triumphant in his humbling because he is so arrogant and callous. This feeling of triumph breaks through the grit, as we are not left to wallow in pity over Samhain's fate.

Roberta Williams was just a hack who made baby stories. This is 2012. Not 1990. Leave your family friendly nonsense in 1990 and come to 2012. There's no room for that escapist light hearted fun crap now.Okay, here is where I catch on to the facetiousness of your argument. Although I'm not sure then if your facetious tone suggests then that you believe Jane Jensen really isn't a good storyteller. I have not played Gabriel Knight, but I will say that I greatly prefer KQ6 over KQ5 (though that might be largely due to KQ5's voice-acting).

[BagginsKQ]

"It's akin to the Greek Realm of Hades, complete with the ferryman Charon, and the River Styx. The atmosphere of this one small area does not make the whole game dark and gritty, especially considering that the entrance to the underworld can be livened up by playing a round of 'Dem Bones."

It's more H.R. Geiger than traditional "Greek' technically... It incorporates elements of 'Greek', with a bit of 18th century pseudo-celtic/druidism, and a few other sources...

Yes, Cassima's parents were killed by the bad guy. Do we see it? No. We get told about it by Jollo, who--while I do like him--has a voice that can't help but sound bright and cheery even when he's sad.

Actually you learn about Cassima's parents murders from the Oracle, and from the parents ghosts themselves...

Jollo only distrusts the Vizier, doesn't like him, but has no proof he has done anything wrong. From Jollo's perspective 'the parents died in their sleep from heartbreak from losing Cassima'.

Yes, anthropomorphic guard dogs,
Saladin himself is not a goofy character, he is very regal if anything, almost lion-like... Very serious, very devoted, very determined...

[MusicallyInspired]

I have not played Gabriel Knight, but I will say that I greatly prefer KQ6 over KQ5 (though that might be largely due to KQ5's voice-acting).

An easy way to compare without voice acting (which isn't really fair to comparing gameplay and such) is to compare the two disk versions of the games for a fair assessment.

[BagginsKQ]

Personally I'd have to say the disk version of KQ5 is better than the cd version... It might have helped the cd version if it had offered the choice to switch between text and voice like in KQ6 cd version... Even better would have been to have a 'both' choice...

There are a few minor changes in text between KQ5 versions simply to incorporate more voice acting parts, or slight narrative changes.

Floppy version has better character closeups for the Antony and Beetrice, that shows more of their bodies.

[MusicallyInspired]

Also, all of the soundtrack is in MIDI, as opposed to all of the cutscenes in the CD version being lo-fi digital recordings of MT-32 audio. I like to have it all in real MT-32.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Again, no it's not. The land of the dead is dark and gritty, but it is supposed to be. It's akin to the Greek Realm of Hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#Realm_of_Hades), complete with the ferryman Charon, and the River Styx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld#The_Ferryman). The atmosphere of this one small area does not make the whole game dark and gritty, especially considering that the entrance to the underworld can be livened up by playing a round of 'Dem Bones.

Yes, anthropomorphic guard dogs, Jollo's hi-res dialogue picture, and the entire cast of The Isle of Wonder are very realistic. Sure.

Indeed, she is. No, it isn't.

Life it what you make of it. To say that KQ6 is primarily indicative of the sorrow and pain of life is totally missing the style of the game. Yes, Cassima's parents were killed by the bad guy. Do we see it? No. We get told about it by Jollo, who--while I do like him--has a voice that can't help but sound bright and cheery even when he's sad. Do we also see into the mirror as Death watches it? No. We do have narration about it which is saddening, but while we do feel sorry for Samhain, we also feel triumphant in his humbling because he is so arrogant and callous. This feeling of triumph breaks through the grit, as we are not left to wallow in pity over Samhain's fate.

Okay, here is where I catch on to the facetiousness of your argument. Although I'm not sure then if your facetious tone suggests then that you believe Jane Jensen really isn't a good storyteller. I have not played Gabriel Knight, but I will say that I greatly prefer KQ6 over KQ5 (though that might be largely due to KQ5's voice-acting).

Yes, I don't like her as a storywriter. I think her style is pretentious, "faux epic", overwrought and overly verbose crap. The Gabriel Knight games bored me, something which is very hard for a Sierra game to do.

[Chyron8472]

KQ6 is overly verbose? Okay, I've never heard someone complain about an adventure game having too much dialogue, especially a King's Quest game.

Also, "faux epic?" KQ6 is a beat-the-bad-guy, save-the-princess quest. By overwrought, you're saying the plot is overly-complicated? I can't even figure out where you're getting that from.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yes, I don't like her as a storywriter. I think her style is pretentious, "faux epic", overwrought and overly verbose crap. The Gabriel Knight games bored me, something which is very hard for a Sierra game to do.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Admit it. You're just using arguments made by other people without any basis of comprehension as to why. Jane Jensen isn't overly verbose at all. Have you even played her games? Jane Jensen is good at what she does. There are just people who dislike what she does. Plain and simple. Doesn't mean she does it badly.

[KatieHal]

Hell, I can tell you from firsthand experience that she quite directly encourages cutting *down* on unnecessary dialogue and wording in game design!

[Anakin Skywalker]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Admit it. You're just using arguments made by other people without any basis of comprehension as to why. Jane Jensen isn't overly verbose at all. Have you even played her games? Jane Jensen is good at what she does. There are just people who dislike what she does. Plain and simple. Doesn't mean she does it badly.

I just find KQ6 more verbose as opposed to the previous games. The writing style is more clinical and less "to the point" and simplistic. I find the plot a little overdone, and the tone dissimilar from the past games in a negative way. As far as her own games, they honestly bore me. It just feels like she tries too hard to make her games epic. It comes off ham fisted. Yes, I have played Gabriel Knight I and II. I didn't like them. At all. I felt they had none of the charm of KQ, SQ, LSL, Quest for Glory, Conquests of Camelot and many of Sierra's other "Golden Era" games. The only other big Sierra series I didn't like was PQ. And it isn't because her games are dark or more mature--I quite liked Phantasmagoria and the Laura Bow games. It's just her writing style and the way her games are executed is really not to my liking at all.


I guess I don't like what 'she does'.

[AdventureGamer]

King's Quest 6 is amazing. It's got good storytelling, has a great villain, unlike the crappy villian of 7, and beautiful animation and art design, unlike 7's over the top cutesyness. KQ6 wasn't what I would call over the top dark, but it was slightly dark. However, it also had it's cute moments and it's lighthearted moments. King's Quest 6's blend of light and dark was perfect, making a great game, something 7 sorely lacked.

[MusicallyInspired]

I think KQ6 is a fantastic game. I'll even go as far as to say it was the most well-written story in the series. I just prefer KQ5 because it feels much more like an adventure, which I prefer as far as King's Quest goes and its story also really gripped me. The voice acting wasn't great, no, but the feeling of going on a journey was spectacular.

[Blackthorne519]

Why does this kind of shit always devolve into a Jane Jensen/KQ6 vs The World discussion. It's tired. And old.

I could give a fart.

I want to know more about Tell Tale's King's Quest. TELL US MORE, TELLTALE.


Bt

[Anakin Skywalker]

Why does this kind of shit always devolve into a Jane Jensen/KQ6 vs The World discussion. It's tired. And old.

I could give a fart.

I want to know more about Tell Tale's King's Quest. TELL US MORE, TELLTALE.


Bt

It's what puts you into the corner of either liking what KQ was pre 1992 (Simple, fun, fairy tale inspired), or liking KQ6 and everything that comes as a result of it: All of it's smaller universe, Father, Black Society "everything is tied together" crap. It's the game that opened the door for all of the fan fanfiction crapola.

It's like the choice between the original Star Wars trilogy, and the "Special Editions" and Prequels.

[thom-22]

It's what puts you into the corner of either liking what KQ was pre 1992 (Simple, fun, fairy tale inspired), or liking KQ6 and everything that comes as a result of it: All of it's smaller universe, Father, Black Society "everything is tied together" crap. It's the game that opened the door for all of the fan fanfiction crapola.

Oh, so that's yooou sitting all the way over there in the corner. *waves* :D

Me, I'm milling around the vast open middle of the room liking all the KQ games (some more, some less, of course), feeling no need to choose between your two extremes, even though I have a preference toward one end.

I'd be willing to consider your criticisms of KQ6, even sarcastically/facetiously stated, but you go beyond plausible. I have to suspect that anyone who would call KQ6 "gritty" -- even in caricature -- doesn't really know from gritty. I don't even think of Gabriel Knight as gritty; dark, sure, but the GK stories were still fairly romanticized. (I only played the first two, so if the third was indeed dark and gritty, then ignore what I just said, LOL.)

And while I agree that some of the fanfiction is crapola, I really don't see why KQ6 should take heat for that. Blame the authors if it's crap.

[MusicallyInspired]

KQ6 was totally fun and fairy tale inspired as much as any other King's Quest before it was. Also, I don't like a story TOO simple. KQ1 and KQ2, for instance, were way to simple. KQ3 was getting better but still could have been a lot more fleshed out. KQ4 is when it finally started getting there. KQ5 and KQ6 were the pinnacle.

Even KQ7 has that feeling of a great adventure/journey, the same as KQ5 has. And not only that, we get to experience TWO characters' journeys instead of just one! Yeah, some of the areas were visited twice over, but it was still interesting to see how the two of them finally ended up on the same path again. It just wasn't done nearly as well as KQ5. And the horrible animation was just annoying and distracting. So it lost points.

MOE had one of the best adventure premises of them all! So many areas and locales to visit! If it didn't have so much combat and contained more puzzles it'd be right up there with KQ5 for me. I still enjoy it, however. And more than KQ7.

[Chyron8472]

MOE had one of the best adventure premises of them all!

See, this is where you lose me. If this is were true, then the premise and implementation are still so disparate from each other that I just can't come anywhere close to agreeing that MoE is a proper adventure (nor King's Quest) game.

[MusicallyInspired]

I never said it was an adventure. I said it had great potential as an adventure PREMISE (as in the story set up). And I even explained it. You go on a journey to many different locations on this vast quest which culminates into a showdown with the most powerful nemesis the world of King's Quest has ever seen. If the game WAS developed as an adventure it would have been a great one. I'm not arguing that the implementation wasn't equally great. But it could have been. Just because it wasn't doesn't mean the potential wasn't there. That's all I'm saying.

[blueskirt]

It's what puts you into the corner of either liking what KQ was pre 1992 (Simple, fun, fairy tale inspired), or liking KQ6 and everything that comes as a result of it: All of it's smaller universe, Father, Black Society "everything is tied together" crap. It's the game that opened the door for all of the fan fanfiction crapola.

That would have happened even without King's Quest VI.

[MusicallyInspired]

A fair point.

[Blackthorne519]

I fucking hate this conversation.


Bt

[Anakin Skywalker]

That would have happened even without King's Quest VI.

Not really. KQVI introduced the "Black Cloak Society" and "Shadrack". It introduced the slim possibility that all the villains and thus all the games could be tied together. That inclination made the KQ universe much smaller. It's like saying Darth Vader invented C-3PO or Boba Fett's father was killed by the Jedi or Greedo and Anakin Skywalker were friends as kids. It makes the game universe and all the potentials much more limited. Why does every bad event and character have to be tied together? Are there no villains who are just standalone villains? And the fans have run with the "Black Cloak Society/Shadrack was behind everything" idea ever since despite neither the BCS nor Shadrack even being mentioned in the last two games nor being part of Roberta's conception of the series.

Basically, KQ6 is a game that really isn't a Roberta Williams KQ. It had only a basic storyline provided by her with bare minimum oversight as she was on vacation in Spain for much of it's development. She didn't even know the idea of a Black Cloak Society or any organization like it had made it past idle discussion before she left for Spain. She didn't know it made it into the final game. When KQVI was in development, Roberta at first felt she was done with KQ, and wanted to only be a creative consultant.

KQ7 is credited to Lorelei Shannon, but Roberta was apparently working on both KQ7 and Phantas at once and also was the driving force behind the game's entire concept (two heroines, Disney direction, art direction, bringing Edgar back, etc). KQ8 despite corporate meddling was still enough of her vision that Roberta after negotiations put her name on it, because all the basic and important ingredients she wanted were there, just with some parts cut out for budget and time.

I just view KQ6 as "KQ meets Jane Jensen", similar to the way TT's KQ will be "TT meets KQ." Basically Jane Jensen's take on the KQ series. I don't like it just as some won't like TT's take on the series. If you want to be REALLY technical about it, KQ5 was the last "pure" KQ game in that it was the last KQ game which was a 100% Roberta product with no co-designer nor any executive meddling.

[Chyron8472]

Why are you blaming fan-made games' additions on KQ6??

The fan-games would do whatever they wanted to "augment" the franchise for themselves, no matter what KQ6 had or had not introduced.

It's not like blaming the prequels on the Original Trilogy. It's like blaming the books on the Original Trilogy.

Oh, sure. Let's blame George Lucas because some author writes something preposterous in their books when Lucas had no part in writing it. Stupid.

KQ5 was the last "pure" KQ game in that it was the last KQ game which was a 100% Roberta product with no co-designer nor any executive meddling. By this standard, neither Empire Strikes Back, nor Return of the Jedi are "pure" Star Wars movies because they have different directors who are not George Lucas himself. Again, stupid.

edit: Also, My Little Pony:FiM isn't "pure" MLP; the new Thundercats show isn't pure ThunderCats; all Star Trek beyond what Rodenberry was directly (and only) involved in making is not "pure" Star Trek; and Curse of Monkey Island is not Monkey Island 3...

I could go on, but I think I made my point how stupid you are sound.

[Lambonius]

I fucking hate this conversation.


Bt

BALLS.

How about we engage in some friendly thread sabotage?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Why are you blaming fan-made games' additions on KQ6??

The fan-games would do whatever they wanted to "augment" the franchise for themselves, no matter what KQ6 had or had not introduced.

It's not like blaming the prequels on the Original Trilogy. It's like blaming the books on the Original Trilogy.

Oh, sure. Let's blame George Lucas because some author writes something preposterous in their books when Lucas had no part in writing it. Stupid.

By this standard, neither Empire Strikes Back, nor Return of the Jedi are "pure" Star Wars movies because they have different directors who are not George Lucas himself. Again, stupid.

edit: Also, My Little Pony:FiM isn't "pure" MLP; the new Thundercats show isn't pure ThunderCats; all Star Trek beyond what Rodenberry was directly (and only) involved in making is not "pure" Star Trek; and Curse of Monkey Island is not Monkey Island 3...

I could go on, but I think I made my point how stupid you are sound.

The whole concept of all the fan games is that every single game is tied tightly together via Shadrack/The Black Cloak Society. All of the fan games being of darker tone, with a more grounded storyline and smaller universe stems from KQ6's interpretation of the series in that it has a tighter storyline and is darker and has the conspiracy element with the Vizier and from the offhand mentions of Shadrack and the Black Cloak Society. It comes directly from there.

Also, It's not really stupid if you've ever read anything about how Star Wars was conceived. Originally George wanted Star Wars to be a fun, light sort of adventure serial--Like Flash Gordon. Nothing more or less. He thought the series could go on as a bunch of loosely connected adventures forever. He wrote and directed the first film, and it was a terrible, stressful experience, so he handed the writing and directing duties to others. Over the next few years, working with several writers, he came to realize he had painted himself into a corner with Luke's father and Vader. Having Luke's father be separate from Darth Vader became redundant from a narrative perspective, because in essence, Luke's father (before his father became Vader) was just another noble older Jedi. In the original script for Empire, you have Yoda teaching Luke with the ghosts of Obi Wan and his father aiding him. And he realized that was redundant and so created the dramatic twist of Vader being Father Skywalker.

The rest of the stuff he left up to the script writer and the director; He had a very hands off approach with Empire. Less so with Jedi but again he was forced into a corner. His original loose idea was for 12 films: The prequel trilogy, the middle trilogy (Luke's adventures) and a sequel trilogy. In the sixth film, Vader would be killed. In the prequel trilogy, the Emperor would be introduced and defeated and "The other" mentioned at the end of Empire Strikes Back would turn out to be another Jedi who was in hiding. Lucas realized he couldn't do twelve episodes. He was worn out, his marriage was collapsing, most of the principal actors were worn out, so he condensed the 12 movies into six and shoehorned Leia in as Luke's sister. She was NEVER intended to be his sister.

As to the other examples you gave, I don't watch any of them and never really could get into Monkey Island so I can't comment. I just think Roberta was the heart of KQ. The only person who I feel could take the reigns fully from her is Josh Mandel. Lorelei Shannon pretty much followed Roberta's direction to the letter so it's basically the same product we would've gotten anyway. I just don't like Jane Jensen's conception of KQ and I'm glad it only lasted for a single game.

[blueskirt]

Not really.

Yes really. This crap happens all the time, every time, everywhere, in every universe that has fanboys and fangirls. Fans don't need a sliver of possibility to tie everything up, invent crackpot theories and get things wrong, they do it all the time, if you think otherwise, you clearly haven't visited enough fan communities.

I fucking hate this conversation.

So do I, and believe me, if I could poop a new screenshot or gameplay preview, I'd do it just for you. But I can't. Maybe it'd be better if we just remove this forums from our bookmarks and come back when the real news are posted.

[wilco64256]

BALLS.

How about we engage in some friendly thread sabotage?

The question is - If you derail a thread that was already derailed does that get it back on track? Not to be confused with two wrongs making a right however.

[Chyron8472]

I wonder when we'll see or hear something substantial about Tell-Tale's King's Quest game.


Bt

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4575528_f520.jpg

[techie775]

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4575528_f520.jpg

lol

[BagginsKQ]

Already happened;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_influenza

[Blackthorne519]

Hahah, Chyron FTW there.


Yeah, I tried to thread sabotage this by getting it back on track, instead of this stupid, redundant debate about King's Quest VI, VII... yada yada......


I guess we've just speculated for over a year now, and I have absolutely no inkling as to how Tell Tale is going to proceed on this one. Will it be much like their own previous adventure games, or are they going to try something different with King's Quest?

I just don't know, and it's driving me bonkers.


Bt

[blueskirt]

Telltale aren't idiots, they know King's Quest's fanbase consist primarily of adventure games fan, not movies or TV fans and they'll give us that. Gameplay wise, I suspect it will be a lot like Tales of Monkey Island, with the possibility of dying.

I suspect a deeper gameplay might be possible if we talk less about Jurassic Park and Walking Dead and more about Tales Of Monkey Island, what it did right and wrong, what we'd like to see more of and what was missing from that game. Otherwise, I fear Telltale will settle for Tales gameplay rather than aim for the better gameplay of Secret of Monkey Island.

So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.

[Anakin Skywalker]

You'll end up getting a game with BTTF's game play and Jane Jensen inspired storytelling. Expect Mordack to be Graham's half brother or something and characters like Morgelien or whatever.

[MusicallyInspired]

Jane Jensen storytelling doesn't bother me. But I think Telltale has enough sense not to go tying stuff together. They didn't do that with Tales or any of the other franchises. That's not their problem.

Also, stop trolling.

[MusicallyInspired]

So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.

I had a post but I'm not sure what happened to it. Here it is again.

I'm sorry, but none of those games (TMI or SMI) match King's Quest's style at all. I hope it's nothing like Tales. Basically, I'm hoping that King's Quest will be different from everything they've done so far.

What TMI did that wouldn't match King's Quest:


An extreme overuse of conversation puzzles
Lack of dying
Extreme overdose of Telltale-style humourous dialogue (which most of the time isn't really that funny). King's Quest is not a comedy
Exaggerated caricature style character design (though I suspect we'll get this regardless)
Not enough locales
Easy-peasy puzzles
Annoying hint system (we're getting this either way)
A world that's completely safe and not dangerous (to your life or game progress) at all. For instance, the dwarf in KQ2. He could steal your equipment and slow you down, you could always get your stuff back again, however, by raiding his chest in his house.
Too much talking (exposition, story, character/plot development), not enough puzzle solving
Not enough wide shots to explore everything in a given game "room"/Too much "cinematic camera angles"
Too short.


Also, I think we can safely assume that King's Quest will be coming last and we'll be seeing Fables after Walking Dead.

[thom-22]

Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.

To be fair, we have had several threads along those lines. But I'm up for talking about it again :) and will look up my previous posts and think some more before writing. I do agree with MI, though, that Tales might not be the best jumping off point.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Jane Jensen storytelling doesn't bother me. But I think Telltale has enough sense not to go tying stuff together. They didn't do that with Tales or any of the other franchises. That's not their problem.

Also, stop trolling.

We have nothing else to talk about besides:
1) The possibility that TT's KQ will either be great, good, mediocre or horrible.
2) That TT's games are very different from Sierra's games, and many feel that TT's style is not compatible with KQ.

We have not seen a screenshot, or a piece of concept art, or a trailer, or ANYTHING for this game. As of now, it's an utterly unknown quantity. A phantom game for all intents and purposes. As such, I just enjoy talking about the KQ games that DO exist. There's only so many ways one can say: "Don't make the KQ game like BTTF or Jurassic Park". Granted, the same could well be said for me talking about KQ6...But when you have literally nothing new or of substance to talk about, the conversation can tend to go around in circles.

[MusicallyInspired]

It tends to go around in circles if you don't regulate yourself. And you don't enjoy talking about KQ games. You enjoy berating the ones you hate. Why don't you ACTUALLY talk about the ones you like?

[Chyron8472]

I suspect a deeper gameplay might be possible if we talk less about Jurassic Park and Walking Dead and more about Tales Of Monkey Island, what it did right and wrong, what we'd like to see more of and what was missing from that game. Otherwise, I fear Telltale will settle for Tales gameplay rather than aim for the better gameplay of Secret of Monkey Island.

So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.

This sounds like a wonderful idea. I like it.


You'll end up getting a game with BTTF's game play and Jane Jensen inspired storytelling. Expect Mordack to be Graham's half brother or something and characters like Morgelien or whatever.

Would you shut up about this? KQ6 did not "open the door" for the plot devices the fan-games made. The Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it. If you hate the fan games, then you do. Now, stop bitching about KQ6, and start talking about something productive toward making TTG's game better (as blueskirt suggested.)

[Silverwolfpet]

Why don't you ACTUALLY talk about the ones you like?

Best advice I heard all day.

Keeping my eye on this thread. Be nice, Anakin.

...or I'll send Obi-Wan to get you :p

[blueskirt]

To be fair, we have had several threads along those lines. But I'm up for talking about it again and will look up my previous posts and think some more before writing. I do agree with MI, though, that Tales might not be the best jumping off point.

I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.

[BagginsKQ]

"Morgeilen"?

You mean characters from the fan games that had nothing to do with Jane Jensen?

Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it.
Actually three mentions... An inventory item found in Alhazred's bedroom, overhearing a letter being written Alhazred in his study, and a cryptic mention by the Oracle...

[Anakin Skywalker]

KQ5 is my favorite KQ game and if TT's KQ has the same adventurous, journey-type feel, with that charm and magic that seems to appeal to all ages, I'll love it. I don't mind dead ends or even "Moon Logic" puzzles; It actually makes the game all the more challenging, and thus, for me, stimulating and fun.

I want a game that has a simplistic, but not utterly vague storyline (IE, KQ5's plot is to the point and moves with a good flow, whereas KQ1 pretty much has nothing in the way of a story besides the overarching plot of finding the Treasures). I want colorful characters and I want cheesy-ness and cheesy puns (King Anthony the Great, Queen Icebella).

I want Graham to be the protagonist.

I would love a return to more of a fairy tale inspired atmosphere, with lots of very very different mythological and fairy tale characters and creatures thrown in the mix together. I want a sense of urgency that wasn't present in any game but KQ4. I want creatures to pop out of nowhere trying to get you and you have to escape off screen. I want some of the Occult/Lovecraft influence present in KQ5 in Mordack's Castle.

I want a large, very open world, that by the end of the game you feel like you've been on a long journey. But I want areas which are titillating to the eyes, but areas which you can never reach (IE the tiny islands in KQ5, or the village by the Roc's nest in KQ5--Areas which look interesting which have nothing to do with the game).

I want the ability to die, and I want funny deaths. I don't want the gameplay to feel locked in or repetitive as it does in Back to the Future. I don't want to have to keep coming back to the same areas over and over. Once one area or land has no further use, it should be left behind.

I don't want any hint system or any hand holding. I want to be stumped--I don't want the game to guide me to the right conclusion, I want to reach it myself.

I'd love a game that would take all the best parts of KQ1SCI, KQ5 and KQ7 and put them together, with something of a more Arthurian plot ala KQ8--but done with the tone and formant of KQ5-7. Basically, what KQ8 could've been if it had remained faithful to the series' "rules".

[Anakin Skywalker]

I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.

A question: Can an "interactive movie" be done where it is still challenging? Where it is an equal balance of "Movie" and "Game"? I always thought the idea of a '90s Sierra style Interactive Movie KQ (but with animation, not live actors at all) could be interesting, if it was challenging.

[Chyron8472]

I'm sorry, but none of those games (TMI or SMI) match King's Quest's style at all. I hope it's nothing like Tales. Basically, I'm hoping that King's Quest will be different from everything they've done so far.

What TMI did that wouldn't match King's Quest:


An extreme overuse of conversation puzzles
Lack of dying
Extreme overdose of Telltale-style humourous dialogue (which most of the time isn't really that funny). King's Quest is not a comedy
Exaggerated caricature style character design (though I suspect we'll get this regardless)
Not enough locales
Easy-peasy puzzles
Annoying hint system (we're getting this either way)
A world that's completely safe and not dangerous (to your life or game progress) at all. For instance, the dwarf in KQ2. He could steal your equipment and slow you down, you could always get your stuff back again, however, by raiding his chest in his house.
Too much talking (exposition, story, character/plot development), not enough puzzle solving
Not enough wide shots to explore everything in a given game "room"/Too much "cinematic camera angles"
Too short.

Good list.

I've been thinking, however, about it being "too short." Now, I know that time played during a single playthrough is significantly shorter when one already knows the solutions to puzzles, and I haven't exactly timed myself lately, but I'm not sure the time it takes to beat KQ4, 5 or 6 is that much longer (or shorter) than the time it takes to beat Tales.

I'm not arguing your other points. I do think that Tales didn't have enough to interact with; too much dialogue and not enough puzzles; and caricature character models.

One thing about KQ games that I'm not sure how TTG can replicate is the variation between sizes of different areas. What I mean is, the starting area of KQ5 and 3 are the largest explorable areas of those games, and I'm not sure how that could be replicated in an episodic game series.

I want cheesy-ness and cheesy puns (King Anthony the Great, Queen Icebella).I know there are cheesy moments in KQ games, but I really detested the ant and bee characters in that game, and ESPECIALLY the dumb ant song while they search for the needle.

I don't want to have to keep coming back to the same areas over and over. Once one area or land has no further use, it should be left behind.I'm not sure about the implementation of this. in KQ3 you spend most of the game in Llewdor; in KQ4 you spend the whole game on Tamir, with the time of day changing; in KQ5, the largest explorable area is the open area of Serenia before passing the snake.

[thom-22]

I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.

They've turned into that because not everybody agrees with your delineation of what's realistic. I have a different opinion on that. I can't just accept someone imposing an arbitrary assumption and suggesting that conversation has to be confined to what follows from it when I believe there are important issues arising from debate on the assumption itself. It's hard to avoid these kinds of problems in forums when people think what's self-obvious to them should be self-obvious to everyone else. No matter how self-obvious it is. :D

---

Back to the current sub-topic...

First and foremost, I want multiple modes of interaction -- look, touch, talk, etc. I don't really care how it's implemented, a row of icons at the top, cursor-cycling, a popup menu, whatever.

I agree with most everything Anakin said. Except I would not say I want the plot to be "simplistic". I would rather say simple, as in non-convoluted, but I have no problem with the idea that a KQ plot could be as detailed as KQ6's. Not only should the gameplay genre be adventure but so should the fictional genre -- as others have said, a journey or quest, with no psychological drama.

I agree with Chyron that cheesiness taken too far is not a good thing.

Not enough wide shots to explore everything in a given game "room"/Too much "cinematic camera angles"

This is an interesting issue I'd like to talk about more, except I'm not exactly sure what I want to say :D. If I could untangle my own thinking on it and write something coherent, maybe I'll do it as a new thread.

[BagginsKQ]

tone and formant of KQ5-7
I wouldn't even consider KQ7 as the same tone and format of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... KQ4 is loosely same tone and format as the later 2 games... When the series started to turn more serious, more dramatic, and had less humor (though the humor in the narrative dialogue is still there, but to a lesser degree than previous games)...

KQ7 was more over the top, and silly...

KQ8 moved back more towards the more serious/dramatic style of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... But went out of its way to add things the series was not previously known for...

[Goldrock]

tbh the dark and grittyness of a story is all based on personal perspective some people will see it as a dark and gritty experience while others wont.

[MusicallyInspired]

"Morgeilen"?

You mean characters from the novels that had nothing to do with Jane Jensen?

Wow. Can't believe you got that wrong. Morgeilen isn't from the novels. He's The Father in AGDI's games.

[Lambonius]

Wow. Can't believe you got that wrong. Morgeilen isn't from the novels. He's The Father in AGDI's games.

Anxiously awaiting Baggins' wall-of-text, citation filled post explaining why it is YOU who, in fact, are wrong, and he was right all along. ;)

[BagginsKQ]

Musically, I was thinking of Morowyn, the Wizard from The Floating Castle... Was obviously tired and misread his post, and typed that, LOL...

Too many wizards starting with the "Mor" title :p...

However, my point still stands... I don't consider the The Father (who in this case originates out of a Fan Game) to have anything to do with Jane Jensen... Anymore than I would blame her for any characters from the novels (although KQ6 did inspire the The Floating Castle artwork)!

[techie775]

KQ8 moved back more towards the more serious/dramatic style of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... But went out of its way to add things the series was not previously known for...

KQ3 wasn't serious or dramatic? The whole game is basically Gwydion escaping from Mannannan and trying to get home. Sure we got a few light hearted moments, but most of the game is pretty determined.

[BagginsKQ]

Techie, the idea was serious, but pay attention to the narration. There are alot of break the fourth wall style humor in it. Very silly stuff... It was also the last of the games to play the narration as 'you as the character'. 2nd Person narration..., and later games pushed more towards more of a 3rd Person style of narration.

Look at some of the stuff said during the few conversations... Incuding the whole 'tattoo' remark, or the 'twincest' comments (milky white skin, sweeet cherry lips, bountiful assets, you'd kiss/date her if she wasn't your sister")!

For all intents and purposes the game has a relatively bright and cheery artstyle, and atmosphere throughout...

[KatieHal]

More Mor wizards! :P

[BagginsKQ]

Mor, the real villain in episode 5? Someone needs to introduce Mordred, Morgause and Morganna (Morgan Le Fey/Morgaine) into KQ :p, lol.

Actually I'd kinda blame KQ5 for introducing organized wizards and villains.

On one side you have the Society of Wizards. On the other the connection between Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier...

It also existed in the King's Quest Companion with its evil family idea and the Magician's Guild. I suppose that those ideas developed in part, pre-KQ5...

Still I think the fan games and fan stories over do it, when they incorporate every single villain the series has ever known! Way too much Legion of Doom, for my tastes.

[MusicallyInspired]

Of course it's overdone. But that's the point. It's fun. No harm done. It's not canon or anything. It was really neat for me personally when I first played KQ2+ back in 2002. I really enjoyed it and thought it was spectacular. 10 years later it stands the test of time as a great game and I still enjoy it.

But we've gone off topic again.

[BagginsKQ]

However if Telltale does the same thing in their new game, I'll personally blame you, and then burn an effigy of you...

Oh and look for someone to sacrifice...To the almighty god Cthulhu...

[techie775]

On one side you have the Society of Wizards. On the other the connection between Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier...



I know where you're coming from but the Vizier really wasn't a Wizard. He just controlled a Genie which allowed him to use magic.

[BagginsKQ]

I was talking about organizing good guys vs. bad guys. I.E. organizations of wizards and villains!

Not all who are organized are 'wizards'.

Society of Wizards is more of a 'good guy' organization, thus why Mordack was tossed out. Some fan fiction writers see it as kind of the Good Society that stands up to the Black Cloak Society.

The Vizier (who is connected to Mordack, and by proxy to Manannan in KQ5), as we learn in the next game KQ6, is a member of the Society of the Black Cloaks.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Abdul_Alhazred

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Society of the Black Cloak

[techie775]

gotcha.

[AdventureGamer]

Techie, the idea was serious, but pay attention to the narration. There are alot of break the fourth wall style humor in it. Very silly stuff... It was also the last of the games to play the narration as 'you as the character'. 2nd Person narration..., and later games pushed more towards more of a 3rd Person style of narration.

Look at some of the stuff said during the few conversations... Incuding the whole 'tattoo' remark, or the 'twincest' comments (milky white skin, sweeet cherry lips, bountiful assets, you'd kiss/date her if she wasn't your sister")!

For all intents and purposes the game has a relatively bright and cheery artstyle, and atmosphere throughout...

Baggins, I agree with you that KQ3 was very silly and lighthearted in areas. But Techie is also right to say it was very dark. Let's face, a wizard kidnapping babies, making slaves of them, and then murdering them on their 18th birthday is still pretty dark.

[BagginsKQ]

Ya, and you really only get that story out of the manual! It's barely touched on in the game itself (in all but a single line of narration, if at all).

Even if you get the wizard to kill you in the game, its done in a kind of tongue and cheek 'Batman' sort of way (ZAP! Pow!Bzzt!). Even Manannan's punishments are 'cute'.

The chores? Even that is done in a humorous way, as we learn that Gwydion isn't actually very good at actually 'cleaning'. Sweeping dust under the rug, rather than actually sweeping it up and tossing it. The narrator pokes fun at that fact.

There is a certain level of 'danger' and foreboding to the game, set by the timer, and having to beat the clock to avoid manannan. But that's not quite the same thing as 'dark'.

While I agree the 'concept' in the story are dark, and there are some 'dark spots', it never really gets that dark in execution... Almost everything is filled with self-referential humor, and even the game's various deaths are played for laughs.

Now, I would say the introduction theme is certainly moody and sad! Although most of the music in the main game itself is pretty generic, quite a bit of stock 'happy' music... Some are childhood hits like Teddy Bear's Picnic, IIRC....

That being said Roberta did consider it to be one of her darkest KQ games. She may have even argued it was darker than KQ8.

[doom saber]

I was talking about organizing good guys vs. bad guys. I.E. organizations of wizards and villains!

Not all who are organized are 'wizards'.

Society of Wizards is more of a 'good guy' organization, thus why Mordack was tossed out. Some fan fiction writers see it as kind of the Good Society that stands up to the Black Cloak Society.

The Vizier (who is connected to Mordack, and by proxy to Manannan in KQ5), as we learn in the next game KQ6, is a member of the Society of the Black Cloaks.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Abdul_Alhazred

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Society of the Black Cloak


I hate the whole organized villain society found in the KQ series despite that QfG, a game I love, technically does it as well. However, with QFG, I think it is executed better; rather than an organization of evil wizards, it is a wizard (Ad Advis) who tends to be somehow involved in most of the QFG games (direct involvement in tof and sod, but an indirect involvement in QG3)

[Chyron8472]

I'm less annoyed at the "organized villain society" thing (a la AGDI; I do not include TSL and refuse to play it) but what I find myself more annoyed at is the blaming of the fan games' story embellishments on a few off-hand and (plot-wise) entirely unimportant mentions in one of the canon games.

[doom saber]

Although this is unlikely, but I would love to see TT do a remake of Kq1 through 4. I want to see them being remade with a more in-depth storyline, but at the same time, have ties to other myths and fairytales like the old games. I would imagine the opening of a KQ1 remake opening up like one of those fairytale cartoons where it starts with a book opening up and the narrator saying "Once upon a time.." we then see Graham on horseback rushing to the castle to meet his dying king. The ailing king then tells Garaham to find the three treasures. One reason or another Graham has no shield and sword (maybe Graham has just came home from an ongoing war, and his weapons are all battered and worn.)

IMO, I think the kQ games (especially the older titles) should be done with a balance between a serious and humorou atmospheres. I don't think a really serious and dark Kq game, if heavily refers to the kq1-3 games) would work.

[doom saber]

Would you shut up about this? KQ6 did not "open the door" for the plot devices the fan-games made. The Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it. If you hate the fan games, then you do. Now, stop bitching about KQ6, and start talking about something productive toward making TTG's game better (as blueskirt suggested.)

I somewhat agree with you there because fanfiction, no matter what franchise it is based on, tends to ship (romantically pair up) characters together or introduce some sort of family connection. I am no English professor, but I think fanfic authors do this as a means to link one character, whether he/she is a fan made character or not, to the overall story universe. Ppl love making or reading connections.

I do think, however, that the mentioning of the Black Cloak society in one of the KQ6 cutscenes did "open a door" for the evil wizard organization plot devices found in KQ fan fiction. While the mentioning of the Black Cloak society is brief in the game, it is one of the most talked about subjects in the KQ community.

[BagginsKQ]

The Black Cloak Society is mentioned several times in KQ6 as such;

1. During the oracle prophecy. Somewhat cryptically.

2. During Alhazred's letter to Shadrack, you eavesdrop on.

3. On a letter discovered written by Shadrack, contains several mentions, and related correspondence going back several months to years in the chest.

4. A bunch of black cloaks are seen in Alhazred's closet/armoir, and on a hook in his study.

5. The Genie wears the black cloaks at least two of his guises, one of the more important of these guises as the evil old man that spies on you in the shops in town, and in which you trick into thinking Alexander died.

6. Indirectly, both Cassima and Saladin comment on the letter. The letter can also be clicked on a couple of other characters for some 'narrative' comments as well in the end game, IIRC as well.

There might be a reference, albeit somewhat more indirectly when you speak to the ghosts of the king and queen.

In no way did that mentions connect all the baddies from the entire series... At the most it connected Shadrack, Abdul Alhazred, the Genie, and Mordack.

KQ5 connected Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier, but not necessarily to the Black Cloaks. KQ5 only briefly discussed Vizier and Mordack's plans for Cassima.

In no way did KQ6 imply that Shadrack was the leader of the Black Cloaks. The actual hiearchy is not really known.

So while the fan games and other fan fiction 'went' off of these references... They actually embellished on the reference way beyond anything the canon games did themselves... By basically pulling in every one from Hagatha, Manannan, Lolotte and Malicia. In some cases Dahlia, and Lucreto into the membership of the Black Cloaks... and/or creating new members or leaders, I.E. Caldaur and Morgeillen, Valanice, Alexander and Pandora. These aren't just embellishments but the basis for entire central plot lines in the fan stories... The funny thing is that fan interpretations of the Black Cloaks all share much of the same ideas in alot of ways... Usually some prophecy tied to the black cloaks and the royal family through its lineage... Sometimes these prophecies are 1000 years in the making... They both concern or usually concern some ancient artifact that villains are after, that will give them ultimate power... They both involve some plot line of the Black Cloaks manipulating the magic mirror to draw Graham to Kolyma in order to manipulate his life...

Scratch that its really the plot line of saturday morning cartoons, the Scooby Doo/Superfriends, 'Legion of Doom' type plots... All pretty cliched... That's not to say even the canon games are filled with cliches themselves (they are based directly off fairy tales are they not?)... But sometimes it seems the fan stories are even more so...

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cloak_Society_(unofficial)

[doom saber]

The Black Cloak Society is mentioned several times in KQ6 as such;

1. During the oracle prophecy. Somewhat cryptically.

2. During Alhazred's letter to Shadrack, you eavesdrop on.

3. On a letter discovered written by Shadrack, contains several mentions, and related correspondence going back several months to years in the chest.

4. A bunch of black cloaks are seen in Alhazred's closet/armoir, and on a hook in his study.

5. The Genie wears the black cloaks at least two of his guises, one of the more important of these guises as the evil old man that spies on you in the shops in town, and in which you trick into thinking Alexander died.

6. Indirectly, both Cassima and Saladin comment on the letter. The letter can also be clicked on a couple of other characters for some 'narrative' comments as well in the end game, IIRC as well.

There might be a reference, albeit somewhat more indirectly when you speak to the ghosts of the king and queen.

In no way did that mentions connect all the baddies from the entire series... At the most it connected Shadrack, Abdul Alhazred, the Genie, and Mordack.

KQ5 connected Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier, but not necessarily to the Black Cloaks. KQ5 only briefly discussed Vizier and Mordack's plans for Cassima.

In no way did KQ6 imply that Shadrack was the leader of the Black Cloaks. The actual hiearchy is not really known.

So while the fan games and other fan fiction 'went' off of these references... They actually embellished on the reference way beyond anything the canon games did themselves... By basically pulling in every one from Hagatha, Manannan, Lolotte and Malicia. In some cases Dahlia, and Lucreto into the membership of the Black Cloaks... and/or creating new members or leaders, I.E. Caldaur and Morgeillen, Valanice, Alexander and Pandora. These aren't just embellishments but the basis for entire central plot lines in the fan stories... The funny thing is that fan interpretations of the Black Cloaks all share much of the same ideas in alot of ways... Usually some prophecy tied to the black cloaks and the royal family through its lineage... Sometimes these prophecies are 1000 years in the making... They both concern or usually concern some ancient artifact that villains are after, that will give them ultimate power... They both involve some plot line of the Black Cloaks manipulating the magic mirror to draw Graham to Kolyma in order to manipulate his life...

Scratch that its really the plot line of saturday morning cartoons, the Scooby Doo/Superfriends, 'Legion of Doom' type plots... All pretty cliched... That's not to say even the canon games are filled with cliches themselves (they are based directly off fairy tales are they not?)... But sometimes it seems the fan stories are even more so....

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cloak_Society_(unofficial)

Thanks for the detailed comment.

When I was younger, I thought the Black Cloak Society was a neat addition. However, when I have gotten older, it seems too cliche (like you said.). I think the problem with the Black Cloak Society subplot is that it is left unanswered. There was so much build up in KQ6 that one would expect there would be some mention of it. If Jansen was allowed to do the later KQ games, I am sure she would pull off the Black Cloak Society plot nicely. If one thinks about it, games like Broken Sword(Neo Templars) and books (Harry Potter) with an evil organization are written well. I think how the fanfic handles the cloaks tied up to the Daventry lineage and having every villain tied to the society is what killed it for me. Like the secret of MI is to the creator of MI, I think the Black Cloak Society should only be handled by Jansen.

[doom saber]

I read about the Black Cloak Society on the KQ wiki, and IMO, it appears that the Society is just a society where Evil Wizards hang out and share their evil plans with over chess - That would be an interesting take on the society -I would love to see the society handled that way in a canon game

[BagginsKQ]

I always felt Shadrack should appear in an official game. He is a loose end. But he should be fairly stand alone villain. Much in the way for the most part villains were stand alone in each game of the series. If there are other black cloaks in the game they should be original villains. I'd rather see black cloaks as something of its own entity.

That is to say, most villains in previous KQ games except for those already confirmed in KQ6 and possibly KQ5 (Roberta had said Manannan may possibly be a member), have nothing to do with the organization. Please.

Maybe toss in a bit of a classic mystery style story. So a kind of investigation is required. Shade doesn't necessarily have to be the leader (he probably isn't), he could just be another cultist in the ranks.

Ultimately the game ends with the destruction of the cult, or at least sets up for the hunt of the real leader in a later game.

I personally wouldn't mind Jane Jensen coming back to help with the ideas, or get it closer to the ideas as she originally envisioned. Unless her idea was for full series Legion of Doom, then I'd rather she stay away, as that's way too predictable.

I'd equally be fine (and prefer) with the ideas of stopping Shadrack in the confines of a standard KQ plot, just another wizard with a plan to take/over conquer a new land. The story could have very little information on the black cloaks except for a few cryptic references. Maybe explain a few more things but still leave the organization fairly open ended. While still avoiding the Legion of Doom cliche.


I read about the Black Cloak Society on the KQ wiki, and IMO, it appears that the Society is just a society where Evil Wizards hang out and share their evil plans with over chess - That would be an interesting take on the society -I would love to see the society handled that way in a canon game
LOL, just a mere men's club, with no nefarious plans to conquer the entire world. Just individual wizards and magicians concerned with their own lands to conquer ;). Maybe they don't just play chess, a little 'dice' (Alhazred has a pair of ivory dice in his belongings), some blackjack, backgammon, checkers, othello, cribbage... etc! That would be so ironically funny

Btw, i've expanded the informationon the canonical Society of the Black Cloak, within the article on the KQ wiki. I've added more information from the games and KQ companion. The new information added a discussion of hiearchy and modes of communication, as well as the correspondence between Shadrack and Alhazred.

[BagginsKQ]

Oh, and btw, "The Father". Roberta Williams came up or used the concept of The Father before AGDI did... In her games, Lucreto is referred to as The Father.

Obviously AGDI's 'The Father', has no connection. It's also not very original, Roberta beat them to it!

[doom saber]

I always felt Shadrack should appear in an official game. He is a loose end. But he should be fairly stand alone villain. Much in the way for the most part villains were stand alone in each game of the series. If there are other black cloaks in the game they should be original villains. I'd rather see black cloaks as something of its own entity.

That is to say, most villains in previous KQ games except for those already confirmed in KQ6 and possibly KQ5 (Roberta had said Manannan may possibly be a member), have nothing to do with the organization. Please.

Maybe toss in a bit of a classic mystery style story. So a kind of investigation is required. Shade doesn't necessarily have to be the leader (he probably isn't), he could just be another cultist in the ranks.

Ultimately the game ends with the destruction of the cult, or at least sets up for the hunt of the real leader in a later game.

I personally wouldn't mind Jane Jensen coming back to help with the ideas, or get it closer to the ideas as she originally envisioned. Unless her idea was for full series Legion of Doom, then I'd rather she stay away, as that's way too predictable.

I'd equally be fine (and prefer) with the ideas of stopping Shadrack in the confines of a standard KQ plot, just another wizard with a plan to take/over conquer a new land. The story could have very little information on the black cloaks except for a few cryptic references. Maybe explain a few more things but still leave the organization fairly open ended. While still avoiding the Legion of Doom cliche.



LOL, just a mere men's club, with no nefarious plans to conquer the entire world. Just individual wizards and magicians concerned with their own lands to conquer ;). Maybe they don't just play chess, a little 'dice' (Alhazred has a pair of ivory dice in his belongings), some blackjack, backgammon, checkers, othello, cribbage... etc! That would be so ironically funny

Btw, i've expanded the informationon the canonical Society of the Black Cloak, within the article on the KQ wiki. I've added more information from the games and KQ companion. The new information added a discussion of hiearchy and modes of communication, as well as the correspondence between Shadrack and Alhazred.

Haha it is funny, yet i wouldn't be surprised if Jansen was heading in that direction. From reading the letters posted on the wiki site, it sounds as if Alhazred is merely giving Shadrack updated progress on his attempt in taking over the Crown. Being an evil wizard must be lonely, so having a club where other wizards share their evil plot with one another would be beneficial for them. It sure beats sharing the evil plot to the enemy before his/her demise. I think IA's version of KQ3 has Manannan visiting his brother to play chess and to talk about the Dragon.

I would love to see a canonical or a fan fiction game to depict the society as just social club. It would certainly be better than an evil organization with some grudge to the Daventry lineage. Prehaps having a fan game where Shadrack is writing letters to cat Manannan or to Alhazred. If the latter, the letters could be about Shadrack hearing of Alhazred's imprisonment. The letters could also imply that Shadrack is taking care of cat Manannan as a dying wish from Mordok. For instance, the letter could be something to the likes of "Dear Alhazred, I am sorry that your plans in taking over the Isles didn't go as planned. Cheer up! It is rare for anyone in our society to successfully take over a kingdom. At least you weren't turned into a cat like Manannan.

Speaking of Manannan, Mordok left me as sole guardian of his brother in his will. I am not too fond of removing fur from my furniture on a daily basis, but at least now I have a friend to talk to.

Have faith, brother of the cloak. I will come up with a plan to break you out of prison.

Your brother of the cloak,
Shade"

[BagginsKQ]

What about a satirical adventure game where you play as a lonely and lowly new initiate member of the club? Just starting to try to develop your own plan to conquer a kingdom? But what ends up happening, is you end up helping everyone else (the other members) with their plans instead! Just to get a little advice from them!

Wizard's Quest I: Rise of the Black Cloak!

The sequel could actually lead to your character finally having enough information to put his own plan into fruition!

[doom saber]

What about a satirical adventure game where you play as a lonely and lowly new initiate member of the club? Just starting to try to develop your own plan to conquer a kingdom? But what ends up happening, is you end up helping everyone else (the other members) with their plans instead! Just to get a little advice from them!

Wizard's Quest I: Rise of the Black Cloak!

The sequel could actually lead to your character finally having enough information to put his own plan into fruition!


Haha. That would be funny! We(as in the tt forum community) should make that game! We can even avoid all the copyright mumble jumbo by not mentioning any of the existing wizards by name. For example, Mananann can be Manny and Shadrack can be referred to his nickname "Shade."

The end twist could be that the main protagonist is really a long lost member of the Royal family. Haha.

[BagginsKQ]

Made a few more edits, and observations, and comparisons between the game and novelized versions of the green isles conspiracy.

Primarily the differences in who is involved.

The game making it primarily Alhazred's plan. It is "My" (from Alhazred's prespective); "My long preparations", "my power and my crown" (from Alhazred's) and "yours" (from Shadrack's POV); "your way", "your crown", "kingdom of yours"). Whereas the companion makes it both of their plans, "Our plans", though Shadrack acknowledges that Alhazred is doing most of the work!

I think one thing to take note, in the game, that Shadrack seems to acknowledge Mordack of being at least an equal to him, if not more (all though not so much in chess), as he calls him the 'great Mordack'.

From the Companion perspective he seems to treat Alhazred as a lesser to him. Noting that while he does compliment Alhazred a bit, at the same time he ribs him a bit by pointing out Alhazred's success at causing the islands to turn on each other, and eliminating the parents is a 'strategem worthy of even himself'.

I'm still not sure how much Mordack was involved in the plans... Was he fully in on it? Or did Alhazred (and/or Shadrack) just take advantage of Alhazred's friendship/insubordination to Mordack, in an attempt to get rid of a loose end. We know in both versions of the letter, the idea was at least Shadrack's idea to get rid of Cassima (...i.e. "recommended/advised").

Also Shadrack seems to see cassima as actively 'meddling' into his own plans in the Companion (whereas in the game, he seems to just warn that she could pose a threat to Alhazred if not dealt with).

The end twist could be that the main protagonist is really a long lost member of the Royal family. Haha
Cousin (or evil Uncle) Ralphy, everyone calls him Bob... He could be Graham's long lost brother?

[doom saber]

Made a few more edits, and observations, and comparisons between the game and novelized versions of the green isles conspiracy.

Primarily the differences in who is involved.

The game making it primarily Alhazred's plan. It is "My" (from Alhazred's prespective); "My long preparations", "my power and my crown" (from Alhazred's) and "yours" (from Shadrack's POV); "your way", "your crown", "kingdom of yours"). Whereas the companion makes it both of their plans, "Our plans", though Shadrack acknowledges that Alhazred is doing most of the work!

I think one thing to take note, in the game, that Shadrack seems to acknowledge Mordack of being at least an equal to him, if not more (all though not so much in chess), as he calls him the 'great Mordack'.

From the Companion perspective he seems to treat Alhazred as a lesser to him. Noting that while he does compliment Alhazred a bit, at the same time he ribs him a bit by pointing out Alhazred's success at causing the islands to turn on each other, and eliminating the parents is a 'strategem worthy of even himself'.

I'm still not sure how much Mordack was involved in the plans... Was he fully in on it? Or did Alhazred (and/or Shadrack) just take advantage of Alhazred's friendship/insubordination to Mordack, in an attempt to get rid of a loose end. We know in both versions of the letter, the idea was at least Shadrack's idea to get rid of Cassima (...i.e. "recommended/adviced").

Also Shadrack seems to see cassima as actively 'meddling' into his own plans in the Companion (whereas in the game, he seems to just warn that she could pose a threat to Alhazred if not dealt with).


Cousin (or evil Uncle) Ralphy, everyone calls him Bob... He could be Graham's long lost brother?

Ralphy is actually Larry Loveage's counterpart - I was looking for info on a street fighter porn parody after reading about it on one of the comments at Kotaku. However, i ended up finding info on a new LSL porn parody entitled "Leisure Suit Ralphy.".

Anyway, what goes with well with graham crackers? That should be Graham's long lost brother or sister's (to mirror Prince Alexander's and Princess Rosella's origin) name.

[BagginsKQ]

Saltine? Cookie? Biscuit? Weetabix? Wafer? Cracker? Ritz? Ryvita? Triscuit? Nips? Goldfish? Krisp? Chip? Toast?

Smore? Marshmellow? Chocolate?

[doom saber]

Saltine? Cookie? Biscuit? Weetabix? Wafer? Cracker? Ritz? Ryvita? Triscuit? Nips? Goldfish? Krisp? Chip? Toast?

Smore? Marshmellow? Chocolate?

Saltine sounds good

[BagginsKQ]

In Wizard's Quest 3, he can join some pirates...

He becomes the Captain known as Salty Bob...

[doom saber]

In Wizard's Quest 3, he can join some pirates...

He becomes the Captain known as Salty Bob...

In part 4, he is wisked away to another land where he has to aid a wicked witch in getting a unicorn. He is known as the salty horse.

[Chyron8472]

I was messing around with ScummVM and DOSBox earlier, and subsequently farting around in King's Quest VI... and I realize just how many hotspots the game has. I'm not sure TTG would do their KQ game justice if they don't have a bazillion unnecessary hotspots.

Take this screen for example:http://i.imgur.com/x8OKe.png


What's it's purpose? It's a crossroads between four other screens (2 outside, and 2 shops), and one NPC to talk to. Yet there are a ton of things which the examine cursor gives separate and unique responses for. Among some I may have missed, there are:



the northern archway,
the door of the bookstore,
the door of the pawn shop,
the bookstore sign,
the pawn shop sign,
the bookstore window,
the pawn shop window,
the bookstore building,
the pawn shop building
the shutters,
the trees,
the bookstore's second floor windows,
the hanging red pants ,
a villager when seen at a second floor window,
the short fat pot,
the tall thin vase,
the short round pot on the box,
the big box which has the pot on it,
the gourd-shaped jugs,
the lamp peddler,
the lamp peddler's pole of lamps,
the general vicinity,
and Alexander, himself.

Now, I could have chosen to use the inside of the pawn shop as an example (as it surely has more to look at) but this particular screen--aside from having the lamp peddler and (eventually) the invisible ink bottle--is of no real consequence besides to get from one screen to another. The fact that it still has a bunch of different stuff to click on says something about the quality of Sierra's games, imo... and I've only listed what you can examine, and have not included what you can interact with using the other cursors.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I was messing around with ScummVM and DOSBox earlier, and subsequently farting around in King's Quest VI... and I realize just how many hotspots the game has. I'm not sure TTG would do their KQ game justice if they don't have a bazillion unnecessary hotspots.

Take this screen for example:http://i.imgur.com/x8OKe.png


What's it's purpose? It's a crossroads between four other screens (2 outside, and 2 shops), and one NPC to talk to. Yet there are a ton of things which the examine cursor gives separate and unique responses for. Among some I may have missed, there are:



the northern archway,
the door of the bookstore,
the door of the pawn shop,
the bookstore sign,
the pawn shop sign,
the bookstore window,
the pawn shop window,
the bookstore building,
the pawn shop building
the shutters,
the trees,
the bookstore's second floor windows,
the hanging red pants ,
a villager when seen at a second floor window,
the short fat pot,
the tall thin vase,
the short round pot on the box,
the big box which has the pot on it,
the gourd-shaped jugs,
the lamp peddler,
the lamp peddler's pole of lamps,
the general vicinity,
and Alexander, himself.

Now, I could have chosen to use the inside of the pawn shop as an example (as it surely has more to look at) but this particular screen--aside from having the lamp peddler and (eventually) the invisible ink bottle--is of no real consequence besides to get from one screen to another. The fact that it still has a bunch of different stuff to click on says something about the quality of Sierra's games, imo... and I've only listed what you can examine, and have not included what you can interact with using the other cursors.

Yeah having a lot to look at, do, examine, etc was one of the best points of the KQ series. It adds replayability to the first 6 games, to go back and look at and listen to descriptions of stuff you never bothered with your first time around. I'd argue SQ did it better, though, at least SQ4.

[BagginsKQ]

Although KQ6 is actually somewhat of the exception to most KQ games. Most hardly contain as much extra narrative stuff.

KQ5 had nearly the same (5 or more things to look at, and a generic screen description ) it just wasn't implemented as nicely (don't look at the exact spot you might get a red x instead).

KQ1 remake also was the last of the KQ games with good amount of extra narration. Right clicking was similar to using eye cursor in that game. Though like KQ5 there are blank spots.

SQ4 unfortunately also has the same issue as in KQ5 with blank spots and red X.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Although KQ6 is actually somewhat of the exception to most KQ games. Most hardly contain as much extra narrative stuff.

KQ5 had nearly the same (5 or more things to look at, and a generic screen description ) it just wasn't implemented as nicely (don't look at the exact spot you might get a red x instead).

KQ1 remake also was the last of the KQ games with good amount of extra narration. Right clicking was similar to using eye cursor in that game. Though like KQ5 there are blank spots.

SQ4 unfortunately also has the same issue as in KQ5 with blank spots and red X.

Yes but with SQ4 you had the extra options of being able to taste and smell tons of things on any particular screen.

How was KQ1SCI the last to have a good amount of extra narration?

I actually don't mind the lack of a narrator in KQ7 btw. I consider the narrator a bonus, and as graphics were becoming more and more detailed, a narrator was becoming vestigial. I mean in 1984 when "graphics" were simple pixels, a narrator was a necessity because it gave you an idea of what these tiny pixels were supposed to be. But in 1994 when they were using SVGA graphics, a narrator really wasn't necessary and probably seemed a bit archaic.

I think the use of a narrator (along with the lack of action) would turn off potential new players who are used to modern games.

[BagginsKQ]

KQ1 remake is a smaller game than KQ5. It has more dialogue than the original, but less than KQ5 in general.

Both have less than KQ6.

KQ4 and earlier KQ titles have even less narrative.

[Anakin Skywalker]

KQ1 remake is a smaller game than KQ5. It has more dialogue than the original, but less than KQ5 in general.

Both have less than KQ6.

KQ4 and earlier KQ titles have even less narrative.

The increased narration is a perk of KQ6. KQ5's world was more wider and more interesting and I'd have enjoyed more narrative boxes describing it.

[BagginsKQ]

I would have liked more detailed narrative in KQ5 in places as well... Like ability to get a description of the little village the Roc takes you over etc...

[thom-22]

I consider the narrator a bonus, and as graphics were becoming more and more detailed, a narrator was becoming vestigial. I mean in 1984 when "graphics" were simple pixels, a narrator was a necessity because it gave you an idea of what these tiny pixels were supposed to be. But in 1994 when they were using SVGA graphics, a narrator really wasn't necessary and probably seemed a bit archaic.

I think the use of a narrator (along with the lack of action) would turn off potential new players who are used to modern games.

If by narrator you mean a voice distinct from the character you're playing, I would agree. But I think one or the other is usually necessary to give feedback and other information, not always straight-up descriptions but just to add to the game's atmosphere, no matter how "modern" the game is. In fact I believe the idea of the voiceless protagonist works well in some cases, eg. Myst, but was adopted too widely for the good of the genre, as if there was some rule that the playable character in a first-person perspective game had to be silent. A good example is Sierra's Lighthouse, a game in which there is no pretense that you're playing yourself or a purposefully anonymous person -- I think it would have been a much better game if the character was speaking throughout. I guess I played too many Myst-clones I thought would have been a little less boring if I'd just had someone to talk to, LOL.

[Anakin Skywalker]

If by narrator you mean a voice distinct from the character you're playing, I would agree. But I think one or the other is usually necessary to give feedback and other information, not always straight-up descriptions but just to add to the game's atmosphere, no matter how "modern" the game is. In fact I believe the idea of the voiceless protagonist works well in some cases, eg. Myst, but was adopted too widely for the good of the genre, as if there was some rule that the playable character in a first-person perspective game had to be silent. A good example is Sierra's Lighthouse, a game in which there is no pretense that you're playing yourself or a purposefully anonymous person -- I think it would have been a much better game if the character was speaking throughout. I guess I played too many Myst-clones I thought would have been a little less boring if I'd just had someone to talk to, LOL.

I suppose narration would work (in a modern game) if done differently. For example instead of a simple description of whatever you're looking at, IE, "Nestled among the woods sits the wizard Crispin's little house", it could be a description sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.

[Chyron8472]

I suppose narration would work (in a modern game) if done differently. For example instead of a simple description of whatever you're looking at, IE, "Nestled among the woods sits the wizard Crispin's little house", it could be a description sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.
Then we could get a nice description of how badly Graham really wants to beat Cedric to death.

EDIT: Ooh. I have another idea. KQ5, narrated by Cedric! :D

[BagginsKQ]

Cedric often acted as the narrator in KQ5... He was the one who did the general room descriptions in many of the screens he was on (whereas when you left to places he wouldn't follow, the narrator would take up those descriptions instead)...

Some of those include the 'It's a poisonous snake"...

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100820153237/kingsquest/images/f/f9/Poisonoussnake.jpg

sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.

That's basically how the original King's Quest games did it, especially the first 3 (although it was more 'you think that blah blah'). Some of the ones in KQ5 (Graham thinks of his missing family as he stares at the little blue bird, blah blah) are also from that perspective...

Actually that's one of the reasons why I wanted KQ7 to have narration, just to give the player more insight from character's perspectives on what they thought they were seeing... You were stuck with just hotspots on what the characters 'found interesting', and that they offer a hint or clue that something else was needed...

Even Connor, tended to offer even more detailed descriptions of things that he saw, than the "I find this interesting' style comments that were all too common in KQ7... Not to mention if you turn on cheats, you could basically get a short description of nearly every item, character, place in the game!

Also narration often gives more insight into the culture, history, and other things in the lands... Without that it makes the story somewhat more dry... Especially if you want to know a little more about what you are seeing... Yes, it might be in greater hi-res detail, and I know what I'm seeing... But what else can we learn from it about local customs, history, etc.

Has anyone played Phoenix Wright/Ace Attorney series? Even that series while looking at things is optional (other than finding evidence), you can look at almost everything in the 'investigation' sequences in the game... There is often some interesting thoughts on what is seen.

[bwaybuddy26]

So Replay Games is talking about how they want to do King's Quest titles. Does ANYONE at Telltale know anything about this? If the game is canceled let us know! It's been so long! :-(

[tomimt]

I hope we'll see something soon, now that Walking Dead is officially out.

[BagginsKQ]

It maybe after Fables? That game is supposed to be released in Q3 2012.