General Bitching

[Darth Marsden]

I looked and didn't see a thread like this, so I'm making one. Hopefully if the mods don't shut it down, you can all join me in this Anger Management class. Any stuff that pisses you off and you need to bitch about, whack it here.

-x-

So my Dad has an incredibly annoying habit of buying Christmas presents himself and then letting other people give them to him. He reasons that this means he definitely gets things that he wants, and other people don't have to worry about what to get him.

You can probably see where this is going.

Yep, I discovered today that the two main presents I got him, a pair of DVDs, are ones he's already bought for himself. I am so angry at the man I could just scream. And did (thankfully the house was empty or my mother would have had serious words at me).

All I've got left to give him are a few 'jokey' presents. And a mug. Woo. Almost tempted to keep them all for myself and just get him some coal, the git.

[coolsome]

I'm pissed I can't play the Law and Order game and yet other jerks are playing it!

[Alcoremortis]

I'm angry that I have nothing to be angry about!

[Chyron8472]

So my Dad has an incredibly annoying habit of buying Christmas presents himself and then letting other people give them to him. He reasons that this means he definitely gets things that he wants, and other people don't have to worry about what to get him.

You can probably see where this is going.

Yep, I discovered today that the two main presents I got him, a pair of DVDs, are ones he's already bought for himself. I am so angry at the man I could just scream. And did (thankfully the house was empty or my mother would have had serious words at me).

All I've got left to give him are a few 'jokey' presents. And a mug. Woo. Almost tempted to keep them all for myself and just get him some coal, the git.

If I were you, I would still give him the movies that he already bought, even though he knows you know he already bought them to gift to himself. In fact, if I were you I would tell everyone else what he has already gifted for himself and instruct them to only get duplicates.

It's one thing to buy something for yourself because you can't wait (eg. I couldn't wait for Skyward Sword or HP Deathly Hallows Part 2). It's another to buy something on your wish list and have people re-give it to you.

[coolsome]

http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv27/DoctorJoker/Screen2Bshot2B2011-08-092Bat2B161041.png

[Chyron8472]

Okay now, people try not to get the thread locked please.

I do see the value in a rant thread.

[Darth Marsden]

If I were you, I would still give him the movies that he already bought, even though he knows you know he already bought them to gift to himself. In fact, if I were you I would tell everyone else what he has already gifted for himself and instruct them to only get duplicates.

It's one thing to buy something for yourself because you can't wait (eg. I couldn't wait for Skyward Sword or HP Deathly Hallows Part 2). It's another to buy something on your wish list and have people re-give it to you.Oh, don't worry. He's still getting them. He's also getting a piece of my mind. :)
Okay now, people try not to get the thread locked please.

I do see the value in a rant thread.Thanks. I actually used to post on a completely different forum and there was a General Bitching section which was quite therapeutic. Hence this thread.

I kinda knew not everyone would take it seriously, so I was gonna let the odd silly comment slide without comment (y'know, 'cause it's coolsome), but Ribs' comment and the picture are both somewhat OTT. A little less silliness would be much appreciated guys, thanks.

[RetroVortex]

Eh. I do this to my mother.

She buys the presents, but she has a hard time finding things to get me, since I get my own stuff all the time, and I'm like the opposite of needy.

Plus I'm normally the one who buys online, so I get it a bit cheaper.
(Any money I can save her is good!)

The only thing that annoys me about Christmas is my little bro.

You see, its his Birthday too, so he gets more presents, but since he's also autistic, he gets like a 2x multiplier on that too! XD

So I get for Christmas 1 present, that I chose myself, (but didn't have to pay for! :D), while my little brother gets 10. 1 being a 3DS.
(3 being 3DS games, and the rest being Blu-Rays!)

And then the cheeky bugger moans about what he DOESN'T have! XD

(Keeps going on, and on about the Lion King Trilogy, EVERY day, at least 2x a day. It gets pretty irritating, the little brat >:/)

My older bro is messing around too, so I don't have a present from him either.

So I spend like £50 on each of them and get nothing...

GOD! And I'm supposed to be the Middle Brother here!
(Though lately I feel more like mama...>:/)

[Johro]

...If there's anything the internet needs more of,...it's bitching. Isn't that why YouTube was created? Oh yeah, that might be taken down. Nevermind. Carry on.

[Giant Tope]

...Wasn't this the point of the Whatever's on Your Mind thread?

[Chyron8472]

...If there's anything the internet needs more of,...it's bitching. Isn't that why YouTube was created? Oh yeah, that might be taken down. Nevermind. Carry on.No, it's not bitching that the internet is full of, it's whining, trolling and flaming (especially those compounded with horrible grammar and spelling.)

That is to say, the legitimacy of any reasonable complaint, however heated it may be, is ruined when it is voiced as though from a nine year old.

...Wasn't this the point of the Whatever's on Your Mind thread?Nope. The point of of that thread is to attempt to swallow off-topic conversation that might have been made elsewhere. EDIT: Which makes me raise an eyebrow whenever someone accuses someone else in "Whatever's on Your Mind" of being off topic. That thread has no topic. That's the whole point.

[supmandude85]

I'm mad that I'm flying.

[DAISHI]

Almost all anime sucks.

[Ribs]

Almost all anime sucks.

Correct. Almost being the key word. Notable exceptions include Miyazaki and Yu-Gi-Oh!.

[Silverwolfpet]

I liked Death Note...and Soul Eater. ^^

Wait, this is a rant thread... ummm... I dislike the fact that 99% of the anime girls seem really really stupid O.o

[StrongBrush1]

I hate when people call themselves "fans" of something when all they do is bitch about how stupid or crappy they think it is. You are NOT a fan if you DON'T LIKE IT, guys.

This ESPECIALLY applies to Star Wars "fans" who do nothing but bitch about how George Lucas has supposedly RUINED the franchise forever. If you don't like it, then why are you a FAN of it?

[coolsome]

This may sound like a silly one but I rly am annoyed by this so don't close this thread or tell me off for being "silly". If you still think im taking the piss then just go with (y'know, 'cause it's coolsome) and ignore it.

I am pissed my Sam and Max sticker from the freelance police dvd is gone! It was on my old laptop and was a trusty companion to me! And when I got a new laptop the sticker didnt peel well off the laptop :((<---TTG needs better emoticons!).

[supmandude85]

I hate when people call themselves "fans" of something when all they do is bitch about how stupid or crappy they think it is. You are NOT a fan if you DON'T LIKE IT, guys.

This ESPECIALLY applies to Star Wars "fans" who do nothing but bitch about how George Lucas has supposedly RUINED the franchise forever. If you don't like it, then why are you a FAN of it?

They like the original versions of it, not the prequels or special editions.

[dumpling321]

LOL!! I was just coming on here to post a rant, cuz you guys always give great advice!

My best friend, who I've practically known since we were in diapers, got married a few years ago, lovely woman, and he's really changed for the better overall... the one problem is that he's pretty much completly cut me out of his life... the only times I see him is when he needs something, and at family events (I get invited to his family events cuz they're like family) and that's only when they show up...

it used to be that we would talk daily, for hours on end, just to talk... we couldn't go a day without chatting and all... heck he called me and told me he had a girlfriend before he told his family, he also called and talked to me while he was choosing the ring... and the night before he actually proposed... but since he got married, nothing...

Sure he's uneducated, and trying to support a wife and kid off a sears job, but I KNOW he gets time off, yet can't spend it with me. I know he's spending some time with his family, his brother is best friends with his kid, yet the kid wouldn't know me from adam even though I'm sopposed to be an "Uncle"

and really I can forgive alot... but it's gotten worse, he never answers his cell anymore, and never bothers to call me back... even his wife and family have admitted that it's wrong the way he's treating me. It's not his wife's fault, I KNOW she's not trying to form some sort of wedge because we've talked about it, and she's tried to get him to hang out with friends more and call his friends more, but nothing...

and now, today was the WORST... his wife has apperently been going in and out of the hospital lately, didn't bother to call me to tell me, didn't think i'd be concerned I guess... and turns out, it's because she's pregnant!! (I found this out a few days ago via his mom) today his wife posted the news on facebook, FACEBOOK!!!! I'm really mad about this... this is something you tell your close family and friends before you let it get posted in facebook!!

I know I should let it go, I know I shouldn't let this bother me, but I always thought this friendship would last forever, my grandmother was friends with her best friend for 80+ years before she died, and her friend is now basically an extra grandmother for me...

best yet, it's 2 days before christmas, and I'll be hanging out with him and his family christmas eve...

has anyone else had a problem like this?

[DAISHI]

Correct. Almost being the key word. Notable exceptions include Miyazaki and Yu-Gi-Oh!.

No see exactly, you just pointed out exactly how much it DOES suck.

[RetroVortex]

They like the original versions of it, not the prequels or special editions.

Also people might quite like the extended universe.

I for one, particularily like The Old Republic lore, and my best friend LOVES most of the Star Wars books that were set after the original trilogy.

[DAISHI]

Almost all of the Star Wars EU is garbage. The post trilogy books were good for a while. The Thrawn trilogy was very good, the Jedi Academy trilogy was good, the books stayed interesting all the way up through Centerpoint Station.

But here's the problem: They ran out of stories. The only thing the writers could figure out to do was how to make the books more military and more serious, forgetting all of the spaghetti western elements that made the movies light hearted while also dealing with serious topics. The only way they knew how to deal with Luke's character was to perpetually torture him by making him lose people he loved. Meanwhile, reuse of imperial super weapons and the killing off of beloved characters were cheap ways to make the stories seems like there was threat, but almost all of the authors forgot that just adding bigger and badder doesn't equate to a bigger stake for the reader.

The post trilogy is almost all garbage but then again so is the stuff they put into games like Force Unleashed.

Although I'll concede that Shadows of the Empire was an interesting concept.

[Darth Marsden]

LOL!! I was just coming on here to post a rant, cuz you guys always give great advice!

-SNIPPED TO SAVE SPACE, SEE ORIGINAL POST FOR SITUATION-

best yet, it's 2 days before christmas, and I'll be hanging out with him and his family christmas eve...

has anyone else had a problem like this?If you're seeing him tomorrow, it might be worth just having a quiet word with him if you can. Just say you miss hanging out with him and, if you can, you'd like to do it again sometime. Try not to put too much pressure on him, just say it'd be nice to catch up and stuff.

Also, it's definitely worth offering to help out with the baby. I'm sure he'll happily take any help he can get there, and it could be a good way to help the two of you reconnect, so to speak.

Hope that helps!

[Lurdiak]

I tried to post in the jurassic park forums but my (enormous) post didn't show up and the forums won't let me repost the same text, that makes me mad.

[supmandude85]

I hate people who get offended by "Merry Christmas", but I equally hate people like Bill O'Reilly who try to force people to celebrate one holiday and act like they're being discriminated against. "Happy Holidays" is made to wish people a happy whatever they celebrate, it wasn't made to push secularism the war on Christmas doesn't fucking exist. However people can say "Merry Christmas" as much as they damn well please. How does that offend you? They're not forcing you to celebrate it. The point of this is to be nice and wish good for someone, not to piss people off for no reason. I'm not Jewish, but if someone wished me a "Happy Hanukkah", not only would I not get angry, I would thank them.

Happy Whatever the Fuck You Celebrate to one and all of dang y'all!

[coolsome]

Its annoying that cos I like wrestling people seem to think I think its real.

[dumpling321]

If you're seeing him tomorrow, it might be worth just having a quiet word with him if you can. Just say you miss hanging out with him and, if you can, you'd like to do it again sometime. Try not to put too much pressure on him, just say it'd be nice to catch up and stuff.

Also, it's definitely worth offering to help out with the baby. I'm sure he'll happily take any help he can get there, and it could be a good way to help the two of you reconnect, so to speak.

Hope that helps!

I've had this talk a gazillion times with him... every time he promises to do better, and every time he fails... the problem is, my scedule is pretty flexable, his is not, so I need him to check his scedule and he never does, even though I keep reminding him...

also the helping with the baby thing won't work because they both have LARGE families, so the families get priority time with the babies while me and my mom (who is like a 2nd mother to my friend) get left in the dust...

[WarpSpeed]

Well, when you get married and have a kid, that does kind of limit spending hours at a time with other friends. I think you're just going to have to downgrade him to occasional buddy and find someone else. Or get married and have a kid to see what it's like.

[dumpling321]

Well, when you get married and have a kid, that does kind of limit spending hours at a time with other friends. I think you're just going to have to downgrade him to occasional buddy and find someone else. Or get married and have a kid to see what it's like.

I know that it's a time sink... but I know a lot of people who manage to have families and also balance their friends into the mix... his wife manages to hang out with her friends, and she works part time AND takes care of the kid, all I ask is, say, doing lunch with him once a month, or maybe getting invited over to play video games with him some evening... I know we'll never hang like we used to, but I definately don't like being ignored...

Heck, I'm a full time college student, studying in a medical field... and I would manage to find the time to hang out with him if he would only be receptive to it...

[DAISHI]

Dumpling, quick statistic. Men, more than women, tend to isolate and focus on their partner after marriage. Men's psychological makeup is geared toward individual tasks versus multitasking. Look at any men's magazine versus women's magazine to realize that. This is also why men deal worse with spouse death, since they lose social supports (friends) that women maintain.

You're asking for something that is beyond most men, speaking strictly from the perspective of psychology and statistics.

[Alcoremortis]

I don't know about that. My dad is pretty damn social, far more so than me. Though then again, whenever he meets up with friends, it's generally to do something specific, not just "hang out".

Dumpling, I'd suggest that maybe you should get in touch with your friend's wife and schedule an activity with the whole family. That way, he can't ignore you and you can hang out within the activity. Like invite them all out to lunch or something.

[Giant Tope]

I dunno, from what I've read that's more of a societal pressure more than a psychological occurrence. There really needs to be a proper men's rights movement so we can have proper equality.

[DAISHI]

Societal pressure is a part of psychology, you can't separate the two.

[GaryCXJk]

I have the feeling I am the only one who can relate to other people when it comes to entertainment, because, apparently, as we grow up we have to think the same way as other adults. It's not cool to like Justin Bieber (sidenote, I do have to say, he's not THAT good, but he's also not the annoying little cunt people make him out to be), arrow in the knee jokes are not funny anymore, the High School Musical series is gay and you're gay for liking it, Hanna Montana is for five year old girls, cartoons today SUCK BALLS, all that other bullshit.

Seriously, I had enough of it all. I don't give a shit about the fact that you think Transformers is a shit movie. I like the series. It's not near my personal top ten list, but I enjoy the films for what they are. They're not meant to intellectually stimulate you, they're only there for the explosions and the CGI robots beating each others to pulp. So what if they're making potty jokes or that the movie is all about Megan Fox' ass. I don't give a shit if you don't like it. Stop trying to convince ME it's a shit movie.

It's like nobody in this world wants to be entertained, it's like people forgot that we as little shits loved the stuff that are actually pretty fucking stupid. I mean, MC Hammer? What the fuck is that? And seriously, we all still nostalgia on MC Hammer yet we tell modern pop music to suck it because the lyrics are too simple? Let me give you some examples.

Earth angel, earth angel
Will you be mine
My darling dear
Love you all the time
I'm just a fool
A fool in love with you
That comes from the song Earth Angel, by the Penguins.

Imagine me and you, I do
I think about you day and night, it's only right
To think about the girl you love and hold her tight
So happy together

If I should call you up, invest a dime
And you say you belong to me and ease my mind
Imagine how the world could be, so very fine
So happy together
The Turtles, Happy Together.

Oh yeah, I’ll tell you something,
I think you’ll understand
When I’ll say that something
I want to hold your hand,
I want to hold your hand,
I want to hold your hand
The fucking Beatles, I Want To Hold Your Hand.

Seriously, get this. Back in the old days, songs were THIS SIMPLE. Especially the fucking Beatles are taken as example of what is good music. Bitch, the lyrics are simple as fuck most of the time. Don't believe me?

When I was younger, so much younger than today,
I never needed anybody's help in any way.
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured,
Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the doors.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being round.
Help me, get my feet back on the ground,
Won't you please, please help me.
Help!

There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you
in time - It's easy.

All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All You Need Is Love.

How does it differ from:

You know you love me, I know you care
Just shout whenever and I'll be there
You want my love, you want my heart
And we will never ever ever be apart

Are we an item?
Girl quit playing
We're just friends, what are you saying
Said there's another and look right in my eyes
My first love broke my heart for the first time,
and I was like

Baby baby baby oooh
Like baby baby baby nooo
Like baby baby baby oooh
thought you'd always be mine mine
Justin Bieber, Baby.

And don't give me that "but it's Justin Bieber", because fuck that shit, it's not Justin Bieber people apparently have beef with, it's his music, ergo, his songs, ergo, the lyrics, because I sure as hell don't want to start about the music.

Seriously, I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Also, don't get me wrong, I love the abovementioned songs, or at least like them. I just took them as examples.

[Chyron8472]

tl;dr

[Hayden]

The difference between Bieber and pop artists of the past is that artists from decades ago were being relatively original. They were building a style of music, and were writing these sorts of lyrics for the first time. What Justin Bieber is doing is riding off the back of something already established. In "Baby", he's doing nothing but borrowing. The lines in the verses have all been written before in other songs; what he's doing is effortlessly paraphrasing old, cliched lyrics. And as for the chorus, well, it's perhaps the most lazy, dumbed-down piece of lyrical work ever. He elects to repeat the most over-used word in pop music ad nauseam, and accompany it with nothing 'ooh's and 'oh's. What a genius wordsman this Bieber fellow is.

This sort of songwriting might have been tolerable about 20 years ago, but in this day and age, it just comes off as unoriginal, lazy, and tailor-made for the ears of the hopelessly stupid.

And what's worst of all is that we're meant to take this 'artist' seriously. The thing that made the music of MC Hammer and such somewhat likeable was the fact that there was some semblance of humour and tongue-in-cheek attitude. They weren't MEANT to be entirely credible, but that's precisely how Bieber is portrayed, despite his music being of an equal or lower level of intelligence. In fact, yes, it's of a lower level of intelligence, because not only is it garbage, it's unoriginal garbage. It's garbage that has been rehashed, because penning his own garbage would have been too difficult.

See, this is why people hate Justin Bieber, because he is the very definition of unoriginal. He is a pop star simply going through the motions, doing everything effortlessly and thoughtlessly, yet he's apparently meant to be some sort of pop genius prodigy. He's portrayed through mass music media to be the new big thing; to be infinitely talented, when all he is is a figurehead and a product, perfectly designed to make money for Island and Universal. His music features all of the classic traits cliche elements of pop music which have proven popular over the years, all rolled into one and then served off to the to the idiotic masses, and more accurately, insecure adolescent dimwits. His music is so unbearably trite that you'd think he was trying to be ironic. But no, he's being perfectly serious, since triteness, simplicity and predictability is exactly what the average person wants these days.

The creation of Justin Bieber, the pop star sensation, is an unmitigated exploitation of the music industry in its current pitiful form. Justin Bieber is the baby-faced figurehead of the leach that is Universal Music. Anyone with half a brain or a critical eye on the music industry knows exactly what a frustrating joke Justin Bieber is, and that's precisely why most people hate him.

[Chyron8472]

I feel like ranting about all the stupid people on the net who have no idea that proper grammar is a useful skill to learn. All of those people have no idea just how stupid they sound, nor do they care, and it's ticking me off.

-.-

What kind of idiot could possibly think that "it's the internet, grammar doesn't matter" should ever be a valid argument to make?!

[Darth Marsden]

I feel like ranting about all the stupid people on the net who have no idea that proper grammar is a useful skill to learn. All of those people have no idea just how stupid they sound, nor do they care, and it's ticking me off.

-.-

What kind of idiot could possibly think that "it's the internet, grammar doesn't matter" should ever be a valid argument to make?!The internet brings out the very worst in people. It's the anonymity. They can get away with shit like not spelling stuff properly because there's no consequences. It's not like school where they'll get an F if they misspell everything.

It should though, because it bugs the hell out of me as well. It's like people not pronouncing letters when they speak. 'fing' instead of 'thing', for example. It's mangling the English language and you should be slapped across the face if you do it. Sadly, you can't do that over the internet - all you can do is correct them, and that gets you labelled as a Grammar Nazi. Bleh.

Also, thanks for resurrecting my thread. Forgot I made it!

[Johro]

The now muddied waters of till and 'til bother me. I suppose that now "till" has been accepted, I'll just have to live with it.

[Darth Marsden]

A till is something that you put money in and out of.

'til is an abbreviated form of the word Until.

I've never really heard of people getting the two mixed up, but I guess the internet makes fools of us all.

[Johro]

A till is something that you put money in and out of.

'til is an abbreviated form of the word Until.

I've never really heard of people getting the two mixed up, but I guess the internet makes fools of us all.

Thank you,
...but apparently it's both now (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/till). Sometimes, I hate this world.

[Darth Marsden]

Oh, that's just bullshit. Every day I find new reasons to hate the world, I really do.

[crysisnova]

Why the fuuuuuu can't tell tale release devils playhouse on xbox!? Ps3 gets every thing!!!

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu--

[Darth Marsden]

...oh look, there's another reason. :rolleyes:

[Alcoremortis]

I'm okay with misspelled words being added to the dictionary due to common usage. Like, I used to misspell "all right" as "alright" (still do) but it's no longer a misspelling. Apparently.

[Vainamoinen]

It should though, because it bugs the hell out of me as well. It's like people not pronouncing letters when they speak. 'fing' instead of 'thing', for example. It's mangling the English language and you should be slapped across the face if you do it. Sadly, you can't do that over the internet - all you can do is correct them, and that gets you labelled as a Grammar Nazi. Bleh.

Also, thanks for resurrecting my thread. Forgot I made it!


All right, it's "general bitching", and I'll serve.

"Spellling" and "grammar" are two completely different things just as spoken and written language are governed by different laws.

First of all, it makes absolutely no sense to "pronounce a letter" in spoken language as if the writing somehow determined how things should be spoken. That's a jumbled logic. It doesn't work that way.

Written language mostly follows the sound rules of spoken language and (almost) never vice versa. But if a change occurs in spoken language - and a language that people use always changes - these changes are not immediately put into writing. In fact, present writing could be regarded as a dated, incomplete and faulty representation of a language's sound rules.

Orthography is an essentially arbitrary system of conventions about how certain words "should" be written. Now written English, mind you, through its varied history (and a lot of foreign early printers, no less) is known for its notoriously broken connection between written and spoken vowels (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vivian.c/SpellHumour/RhymesComic.htm). For such a random attribution of letters to sounds, there really is no need except tradition. If oh so many people spell a word "wrong" in the very same way, maybe present spoken language intuition dictates it and the writing should in fact change.

Spoken language, as I have already written in the Grammar Nazi thread, is an ever changing entity. Some changes are only attempted, stay a fashion for some time, then disappear entirely. Other changes are adapted by more and more speakers and are one day considered a correct form by most speakers of the language. Pedants look in sixty year old grammar books and raise the index finger, but they're looking at completely dated material, because a grammar book is nothing but a desperate attempt to guess and describe the subconscious, changing language rules stored in the mind of the present language speaker.

Now if a change in progress is spotted by so called language guardians, all hell breaks loose. All of a sudden, people who use the variation are supposedly stupid, ruin the language, do not understand its "logic" any more or make it incomprehensible.

But the language guardians are the laughing stock of linguists for several reasons. Their kind is thousands of years old, and those from thousands of years ago who saw the downfall of the Greek language in this or that variation have been proven quite wrong. From an objective standpoint, there's absolutely no reason why /fing/ should not work as a word in the English language alongside or instead of /thing/. The only reason people get enraged is because it differs from their own use, and the "reasons" they make up why their usage is "right" and other usages are "wrong" have led sociolinguists to the sound belief that the central reason for this kind of language critique is the preservation and elevation of one's own social status by insulting other people.

Sorry... I studied Language for too long.

[KuroShiro]

Written language mostly follows the sound rules of spoken language and never vice versa. But if a change occurs in spoken language - and a language that people use always changes - these changes are not immediately put into writing. In fact, present writing could be regarded as a dated, incomplete and faulty representation of a language's sound rules.

Orthography is an essentially arbitrary system of conventions about how certain words "should" be written. Now written English, mind you, through its varied history (and a lot of foreign early printers, no less) is known for its notoriously broken connection between written and spoken vowels (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vivian.c/SpellHumour/RhymesComic.htm). For such an arbitrary attribution of letters to sounds, there really is no need except tradition.

As someone who works in linguistics (and in sociolinguistics specifically) I also feel the need to comment on this. Historically, English orthography is "broken" for a number of reasons. Essentially it is a matter of language planning & standardization. Back in the early days, when written English was just being codified with the invention of the printing press, there was tremendous regional variance in spoken language. Even for a word as simple as "Egg", a printer would often have to choose between two highly distinct forms within a single city. In this sense, it is anything *but* arbitrary, as spoken language change was actually heavily influenced by orthography (i.e. the other form for egg is no longer used because it was standardized away via the writing system).

On the other hand, some aspects of English orthography really are just artifacts of changed pronunciation. For example, all the final 'e's you have in English actually used to be pronounced. i.e. 'House' used to be pronounced 'hoosuh' (in middle English). English also underwent a massive vowel shift which basically rotated the pronunciation of vowels around the articulatory space. English orthography hasn't really been updated much since the late 18th century, so a lot of that silliness remains.

Prescriptive grammar (stuff like don't end a sentence with a preposition), however, is of no interest to linguists. Since linguistics is inherently a descriptive field, we generally laugh off any attempts to prescribe or proscribe language use. Sociolinguistics is probably the only field that seriously examines it, even if it is mostly for the purposes of proving how wrong and horrible language planning can be.

[Darth Marsden]

Oh dear sweet lord, what have I unleashed.

[KuroShiro]

Oh dear sweet lord, what have I unleashed.

A linguistics seminar! :eek:

[Vainamoinen]

They_were_in_dire_need.

Thanks KuroShiro for stepping in and providing more detail for what I just called a "varied history". My degree is from early 2007 (GOD I AM SO OLD), and I have forgotten far too much to still be lecturing that way. ;)

But maybe we should leave it at that before someone forces us to tell the egges or eyren story. :D :D

[Chyron8472]

All right, it's "general bitching", and I'll serve.

"Spellling" and "grammar" are two completely different things just as spoken and written language are governed by different laws.

[...]

Now if a change in progress is spotted by so called language guardians, all hell breaks loose. All of a sudden, people who use the variation are supposedly stupid, ruin the language, do not understand its "logic" any more or make it incomprehensible.

But the language guardians are the laughing stock of linguists [...]

So, you're bitching that people bitch too much/too loudly about inevitable changes in the spellings of words and phrases?

By saying "'Spellling' and 'grammar' are [...] two completely different things," are you saying that your rant is about spelling nazis and not about grammar nazis'? I should hope so. The fact that a language changes over time does not excuse willful and blatant ignorance of how to use it. For example, so very many people can't tell the difference between when to use "I" verses "me" in a sentence, nor does this ever-increasing group of idiots know to phrase others before yourself in a sentence.

ie. Using "me and her" (instead of "she and I") when referring to the subject of a sentence, is so obviously wrong yet used by so many, it's ridiculous.

[KuroShiro]

The fact that a language changes over time does not excuse willful and blatant ignorance of how to use it.
Yes it does, except we prefer the term 'variation' to 'blatant ignorance'. You might be interested (wishful thinking on my part perhaps) in reading some seminal studies by William Labov, or more recent relevant studies by Penelope Eckert. They're actually quite interesting.

For example, so very many people can't tell the difference between when to use "I" verses "me" in a sentence, nor does this ever-increasing group of idiots know to phrase others before yourself in a sentence.

ie. Using "me and her" (instead of "she and I") when referring to the subject of a sentence, is so obviously wrong yet used by so many, it's ridiculous.

If you understand what they are saying, and would not feel a twitch in your head that tells you it is not a valid sentence of your native language, then it does not matter in speech. The concept of 'others before yourself' is a perfect example of prescriptive grammar, which does not apply to spoken language.

Writing is another matter altogether.

[Johro]

...I still will not accept "till" as a variant form of "until".

[thesporkman]

Thank you,
...but apparently it's both now (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/till). Sometimes, I hate this world.

Oh, yeah. Now it's both. It's always been both! It says right there in the dictionary entry you just posted: "First known use: before 12th century." Till used as a preposition/conjunction dates back to Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse, possibly even earlier. Until is a more recent formation. It only dates to the 13th century (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/until?show=0&t=1328817006), to Middle English. It's a compound preposition/conjunction, formed from un (meaning "up to," cognate to the Old Norse unz, and the Old High German unt) and the older till.

Why would you post a link to a dictionary entry to prove a point, and then not read it and discover that it contradicts your point?

[Vainamoinen]

By saying "'Spellling' and 'grammar' are [...] two completely different things," are you saying that your rant is about spelling nazis and not about grammar nazis'? I should hope so.

You're hoping in vain.

Language changes, so does grammar. Maybe in two hundred years, there's no explicable difference between "I" and "me" or "she" and "her" any more, and it wouldn't be a less understandable or less "logical" language because of that change. Less people today seem to use these words according to the older rules, that might (might!) be a sign that these parts of your language are about to change. In no case is it a sign that some people are less intelligent or negligent than others, and in no case is it a sign of language "decay". The English language would become less complex in this respect (while developing new complexities elsewhere no doubt), no harm done.

If you don't like it, don't use it that way. That is as much power as you have concerning language change - exactly one voice.

In a job interview situation or in conversation with superiors you can expect people to "dress up" their language. Their ability to chose the most accepted language variation is of utmost importance to communicate their social status there. A signal of respect, a signal of their ability to adapt to the situation. In most other cases, in most other conversational circumstances, fuck it. Criticizing other people's language there has no sense but the one mentioned above.

[Darth Marsden]

...I still will not accept "till" as a variant form of "until".How about if it's only got one L? As in "It wasn't til later that he discovered she had stolen his penis".

Or would you require an apostrophe to be sated? So more like "'There was nothing he could do 'til she returned it after her night out with the girls".

I'll agree that till is not acceptable, but mostly because a till is actually a physical thing. As in "He briefly wondering how much the till would ring up if she decided to pawn it in".

Till as an action referring to a point in time yet to come is, to me, bollocks, and should always be until or 'til. For example: "But until she returned later that that brandishing either the member or a receipt, he decided to put the thought out of his head and use one of his spares he'd hidden from her 'til now."

[KuroShiro]

Oh, yeah. Now it's both. It's always been both! It says right there in the dictionary entry you just posted: "First known use: before 12th century." Till used as a preposition/conjunction dates back to Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse, possibly even earlier. Until is a more recent formation. It only dates to the 13th century (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/until?show=0&t=1328817006), to Middle English. It's a compound preposition/conjunction, formed from un (meaning "up to," cognate to the Old Norse unz, and the Old High German unt) and the older till.

Why would you post a link to a dictionary entry to prove a point, and then not read it and discover that it contradicts your point.

Because proponents of standard language ideology are generally more interested in maintaining the current standard than understanding the socio-historical trends that led to it.

[Chyron8472]

In the case of people using 'me' and 'her' as a subject of a sentence... I've never heard that once in my life. Could you provide an example? Like... 'Me am going to the store'? If you understand what they are saying, would not feel a twitch in your head that tells you it is not a valid sentence of your native language, then it does not matter in speech.

You've obviously not watched enough television. There are so many characters in TV shows, litigants on court shows (like The People's Court) and interviews with various people on the news wherein people say things like "me and her went to the store" or something similar.

I can't believe you're basically saying that no one is ever wrong in phrasing how they speak, and that such is a legitimate reason for change in the grammar of a language. The next thing you'll tell me is that "Ebonics" really is a legitimate dialect and not just an excuse to proliferate ignorance of proper use of the English language.

[KuroShiro]

You've obviously not watched enough television. There are so many characters in TV shows, litigants on court shows (like The People's Court) and interviews with various people on the news wherein people say things like "me and her went to the store" or something similar.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying (see the edit to my earlier post).


I can't believe you're basically saying that no one is ever wrong in phrasing how they speak, and that such is a legitimate reason for change in the grammar of a language. The next thing you'll tell me is that "Ebonics" really is a legitimate dialect and not just an excuse to proliferate ignorance of the English language.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And ebonics very much *is* a legitimate dialect, with structural and lexical rules that have been studied and documented. Saying otherwise only proves your ignorance. Do you really want me to take the gloves off on this? Because you are empirically incorrect in the arguments you're making.

[thesporkman]

You've obviously not watched enough television. There are so many characters in TV shows, litigants on court shows (like The People's Court) and interviews with various people on the news wherein people say things like "me and her went to the store" or something similar.

I can't believe you're basically saying that no one is ever wrong in phrasing how they speak, and that such is a legitimate reason for change in the grammar of a language. The next thing you'll tell me is that "Ebonics" really is a legitimate dialect and not just an excuse to proliferate ignorance of proper use of the English language.

Ebonics is a legitimate dialect, and it even has a more regular and consistent grammar than Standard English.

[Vainamoinen]

I can't believe you're basically saying that no one is ever wrong in phrasing how they speak

The concepts of "right" or "wrong" language belong to prescriptive grammar, and linguistics has left that path, what, 60 years ago. Isn't it great how science develops?

[Chyron8472]

If you say so. Don't let me stand in the way of people intentionally sounding like idiots. I'm sure the corporate world really loves for people who are supposed to sound professional in their jobs to speak and write like they only have a 5th grade education.

My parents are Social Security Disability attorneys. Maybe they should start writing all their briefs in leetspeak. I'll bet the courts would find them very knowledgeable if they did.

[Vainamoinen]

If you say so. Don't let me stand in the way of people intentionally sounding like idiots. I'm sure the corporate world really loves for people who are supposed to sound professional in their jobs to speak and write like they only have a 5th grade education.

Read my comments again, I have reserved a special place for the "corporate world". ;)

Also, read (http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Ebonics-Linguistic-Racial-Prejudice/dp/0195152891/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328820057&sr=8-1).

[Chyron8472]

Read my comments again, I have reserved a special place for the "corporate world". ;)

People can't "dress up their language" if they don't even know what the heck they're doing wrong or how to correct it.

And I'm not racially prejudiced, I disapprove of people saying that because someone is ignorant of the rules they are ultimately not wrong when they breaking them.

[KuroShiro]

If you say so. Don't let me stand in the way of people intentionally sounding like idiots.

Don't worry. I don't hold it against you.

Also, since I just like expounding on this topic, (spoken) Standard American English is actually simply upper-midwestern dialect from the 1950s. It was adopted, in rather arbitrary fashion, by the news networks once broadcasting began to become more national rather than local. The written form of American English was (largely) codified by Noah Webster (you know, Webster from Miriam & Webster's Dictionary) as an attempt to separate American English from British, for mainly nationalistic reasons. :: screen goes black :: The more you know...

[Chyron8472]

So, you're basically saying that no one should bother to put any effort at all into learning how to speak their native language properly. In the end no one should give a shit about it anyway, and if they do then they're ultimately the ignorant ones and should pull the stick out their collective asses.

[KuroShiro]

So, you're basically saying that no one should bother to put any effort at all into learning how to speak their native language properly. In the end no one should give a shit about it anyway, and if they do then they're ultimately the ignorant ones and should pull the stick out their collective asses.

No. People are free to speak however they want. If you want to speak in a certain way, then by all means do. It's just that the type of language you learn in school, while perfectly valid, is simply a style and register of speech. There's nothing about it that's inherently more correct than any other way of speaking that is understood. If you're actually interested in learning more about this, (particularly in light of your comments on style-shifting in a corporate environment) you can read some of Allan Bell's work, such as this (http://www.stanford.edu/~eckert/PDF/bell1984.pdf) (a bit out of date, but still relevant).

[Vainamoinen]

People can't "dress up their language" if they don't even know what the heck they're doing wrong or how to correct it.

And I'm not racially prejudiced, I disapprove of people saying that because someone is ignorant of the rules they are ultimately not wrong when they breaking them.

You unfortunately fail to see that language varieties that are accepted in some social groups, complex varieties of English that fully function to convey even the most complicated meanings, are not accepted and thought of as stupid by speakers of other language varieties.

You are correct to assume that speakers used to a certain variety are not necessarily able to use another at will, which they are simply less familiar with. We all know that there is a language barrier in social rise. These people might learn what is acceptable in the English "standard" language and what isn't. They would learn new rules, arbitrary language rules which happen to communicate a different social status. But damn, that doesn't make their own way of speaking "wrong" or "broken".

If your parents tried to write their briefs in leetspeak (a WRITTEN language convention, not SPOKEN!!), the court would deem it inappropriate because they would insist on their own written language conventions, and they would deem it insulting because of the failure to adhere to their own written language conventions. The example is a bad one, but you might see leetspeak as a sociolect used by a certain group to identify and socialise with members of the same group. Adressing the court in leetspeak would be like speaking German on this forum. I'd use a fully functional language, but it just would not be appropriate and not necessarily understood.

"Wrong" or "stupid"? Comes in nowhere here.

So, you're basically saying that no one should bother to put any effort at all into learning how to speak their native language properly.

I think we're basically saying that "their native language" can mean a whole lot of things. Especially when it's a form of English.

[thesporkman]

Me ðynceþ ðæt we ealle scyle gieta þus sprecan.

[corruptbiggins]

Isn't this supposed to be general bitching? Getting way to specific for my tastes!!

[Darth Marsden]

I'm just ignoring them until this whole mess blows over.

Here's a genuine bitch - there's too many Indie Bundles! I'd be happy to support one or two, but there's so gaddamn many that I'm getting turned off to the whole idea. I mean come on! I just gave a bunch to Double Fine, and now there's another Music Bundle? Jesus! And in a couple of days the Valentines Bundle'll be up and gah! I AM NOT MADE OF MONEY.

[Vainamoinen]

All right, all right, I'm sorry.

Studying Language makes people rather open-minded towards and interested in other people's way of speaking, while language critique seldom strikes a chord.

Being confronted with the ocean of mostly arbitrary changes the English language has experienced in its past (http://www.amazon.com/History-English-Language-Albert-Baugh/dp/0415280982/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328875638&sr=1-1), present battlefields of usage (www.amazon.com/Language-Power-Social-Life/dp/0582414830/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328875545&sr=8-1) can just be interesting things to observe and record for us. The linguist knows full well that language change can hardly be stopped, and he also knows that it doesn't harm (or really advances) a spoken language (http://www.amazon.com/Language-Change-Cambridge-Approaches-Linguistics/dp/0521795354/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328875564&sr=8-1) as a whole.

You pretty much think that after your studies, you understand how language works (http://www.amazon.com/Language-Change-Invisible-Hand/dp/0415076722/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328875783&sr=8-1) (a rather foolish assumption, come to think of it), while the "general public" just dares to retain their opportunist misconception that their language is right and that of others is wrong. People from a hundred years ago would undoubtedly call THEIR language decayed and perverted.

But I can stop here. ;)

[Iryon]

But I can stop here. ;)

Gust as ik met mui süms üawareine kuommen was, dat wui niu oll Platt kuiern sollen ...

[Alcoremortis]

I'll put in my oar and say that I want everyone to learn proper spelling and grammar because I was forced to learn it. It really grinds my gears when other people can get away without spending all the time and effort that I spent learning and (even worse!) don't find it worthy of putting in the time and effort to learn.

Also, reading chat-speak on facebook gives me a headache and a compulsion to delete seventy-five percent of my friends list.

In short, evolution is one thing, laziness is another. Changing "all right" to "alright", adding "meh" to the dictionary, allowing use of prepositions at the end of sentences...that's all well and good. But "your" and "you're" mean very different things and shouldn't be used interchangeably since they obscure the meaning of a sentence.

[Chyron8472]

which is my feeling exactly.

[Vainamoinen]

But "your" and "you're" mean very different things and shouldn't be used interchangeably since they obscure the meaning of a sentence.

Let me address this to KuroShiro, because (a) I don't want to enrage people even more and (b) I just don't have the history at hand to back up my hypothesis. Maybe he can help. ;)

"you're" is a shortened form of "you are". As far as I know, shortened forms are the red button for language guardians as they pop up, so I will assume that at some time in the English language history, people have protested their lungs out against people saying "you're" instead of "you are" (= stupid, lazy, incomprehensible, yadda yadda yadda).

For such a shortened form to even reach writing, I would assume a second wave of protest to have occurred. One that hasn't necessarily ebbed out by today (you'd write "you're" on the Internet, but would you do it in rather formal texts?).

Meanwhile, English spoken language has fully wiped out the sound differences between "you're" and "your". This is very widely accepted today, even among the highest educated classes. I would assume that this means the English language works just as well (or comprehensible, logical, formal, complex, right, yadda yadda yadda) without the explicit distinction.

Now I like the written difference between your and you're. It helps me to interpret a written sentence as someone whose Native language is NOT English. And I do feel the occasional irrational language guardian anger when I see that mistake, as I feel as if my undoubtedly high learning was insulted. But as spoken English got rid of the difference completely, and therewith proves that the necessity for distinction doesn't really exist, the question should be natural whether English writing should reflect this as well.

That said, of course no one who types "your" instead of the correct "you're" wants to make a stand in that matter. You would of course find these writing "mistakes" primarily in the messages of lower educated classes, those of very young people or in the writings of foreigners; and I see another reason in the Internet's natural tendency to save typing time by developing shortened forms (since time in memorial or at least since normal, non-computer-nerds took their first steps in the net; you may thank Apple, Facebook or the ordinary SMS for establishing dire need for ever-shortened orthography).

And that is why you won't see me wasting letters in here just because coolsome doesn't get it. ;) ;)

[KuroShiro]

Firstly, sorry if I got a bit rude before. We all have our pet peeves, and this thread happened to touch on mine. In terms of the your/you're distinction... well, people have always liked to make spoken language shorter and easier to pronounce, and sometimes if it becomes entirely pervasive it translated into orthography. Contractions in English are pretty long standing though, going back a few centuries.

Anyway, if I somehow came across as being against proper education, then I didn't express myself very well. I *am* a teacher after all, that would be pretty silly of me. As I said, written language is very different from spoken. It's codified, and planned, and when you screw up in writing, it very much *is* incorrect. It always makes me chuckle (with rage) when some English teachers say that there's no wrong way stylistically to write English, while correcting how students speak.

Anyway, I agree with you, messing up your/you're and their/they're makes you look stupid, and 'chatspeak' makes you look even worse.

[Alcoremortis]

Honestly, when I speak, there is definitely a difference between between "your" and 'you're". "You're" ends up being slightly more "oo"-like than the broader "your". Maybe this is why it bugs me so much.

And I'm one of those weird people who tend to write more grammatically accurate texts. I may not always be up to finding the apostrophe, and in that case I end up writing the shortened version: "youre".

Because I like the difference to still be there.

[Johro]

I hate lip syncing and phoned in sound. Friend of mine went off on Eurovision for this and that';s just garbage. I've seen some bad performances, I've been to venues with horrible sound, but I would still prefer that to listening to a track.

For instance, KISS' ALIVE was half rerecorded in the studio because of mistakes(and general performance issues) and when this was revealed in an interview(in the 90s I think), a whole lot of fans I know instantly hated that record.

[Chyron8472]

Meanwhile, English spoken language has fully wiped out the sound differences between "you're" and "your". This is very widely accepted today, even among the highest educated classes. I would assume that this means the English language works just as well (or comprehensible, logical, formal, complex, right, yadda yadda yadda) without the explicit distinction.

Now I like the written difference between your and you're. It helps me to interpret a written sentence as someone whose Native language is NOT English. And I do feel the occasional irrational language guardian anger when I see that mistake, as I feel as if my undoubtedly high learning was insulted. But as spoken English got rid of the difference completely, and therewith proves that the necessity for distinction doesn't really exist, the question should be natural whether English writing should reflect this as well.

Given that this is a written internet forum, I would speculate that most "language guardians'" anger in this context, (including my own) is largely referring to written language. For myself, I admit to have recently fixated on the verbally incorrect usage and order when referring to oneself ("me and him" instead of "he and I") but improper usage of the written word is a more prevalent problem concerning conversation on the net.

They're, their and there; no and know; too and to... are not incorrect written usages that warrant one day becoming interchangeable, and they (among other similar things) do greatly annoy me.

[Vainamoinen]

And I do see that. Homophones are always difficult to spell for less educated people.

Concerning the "me and him" word order - I'm not that sure if I'd attribute the question to actual grammar. This is a politeness concept. The exact same word order idea is prevalent in German, including the harsh correction by one's mother.

The idea is, of course, that naming oneself first would be a self-serving thing to do. But if the question was "Who wants a good beating?", would we object to the answer "Me... and my brother"? ;)

[Alcoremortis]

The way I learned it from my mother (who has a masters in English, so I'm pretty sure this has some grounding somewhere) is that when referring to yourself and another person, the way to find out as if it is grammatically correct is to remove the reference to the other person and see if the sentence still makes sense.

So if you wanted to know if the sentence "Me and Martha went to the store" is grammatically correct, you remove "and Martha" and get "Me went to the store" which sounds stupid.

On the other hand "Martha and I went to the store" when you remove the Martha bit, you get "I went to the store" which is a complete sentence.

I think with your example it could technically work either way since both sentences would make sense, but I'm pretty sure that the ultra formal way would be "My brother and I". But nobody speaks like that when asked a question.

[gamer247]

This should be renamed 'The General Grammar Thread'.

[JedExodus]

I like the way all the grammar freaks/nazis have taken over the bitching thread.

Eye always new ewe guys where the worst.

[coolsome]

I'm not honey coated right now and that pisses me off!

[Alcoremortis]

I'm a Grammar Commie, not a Grammar Nazi. I read a proof that Stalin is worth 5 Hitlers while Hitler is only 20 centiStalins.

[Iryon]

I like the way all the grammar freaks/nazis have taken over the bitching thread.

Eye always new ewe guys where the worst.

Ewe spelt 'wurst' rong.

[Vainamoinen]

I like the way all the grammar freaks/nazis have taken over the bitching thread.

You've got it wrong. The grammar liberation force was at hand.


http://i39.tinypic.com/1otytk.jpg

[coolsome]

I hate posses.

[St_Eddie]

I hate posses.

You and whose army, pilgrim?

[divisionten]

You and whose army, pilgrim?

MINE. I make homunculi and robots in my basement.

[coolsome]

You and whose army, pilgrim?

Were gonna...PAINT YOUR WAGON GONNA PAINT IT GOOD!

[St_Eddie]

Were gonna...PAINT YOUR WAGON GONNA PAINT IT GOOD!

Good, it could use a new lick of paint.

Once you're done, why don't ya go squat with your spurs on.

[Vainamoinen]

MINE. I make homunculi and robots in my basement.

I believe you.

[FrankT]

UGH! I had an absolutely disgusting thought last night! It doesn't even bear thinking about! :mad: I don't know if the guidelines would let me utter it here anyway.

[Friar]

UGH! I had an absolutely disgusting thought last night! It doesn't even bear thinking about! :mad: I don't know if the guidelines would let me utter it here anyway.

Freud?

[FrankT]

Freud?

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/EvilGuy/phpbb/jh.png http://www.majhost.com/gallery/EvilGuy/emoticons/bad.gif

[coolsome]

Telltale games has put on a lot of weight.

[Remolay]

I'm going to revive this thread for something nobody else cares about.

The new Uchu Keiji Gavan movie.

The new Space Sherrif is Geki Jumonji, who is known as Gavan G-Type.

Here's what pisses me off, People are simply calling him Gavan. That is incorrect. He appears to be completely human, which means he probably doesn't even have an alien name with his own. Even his alien sidekick calls him Geki when not transformed.

Toei appears to have forgotten that Gavan is a name, not a title. The original Space Sheriff Gavan was known as Retsu Ichijouji, taking the Ichijouji name from his Human mother. However, his true name was Gavan.

Geki's name is Geki. He appears to have no relation to Gavan what-so-ever. They don't even have the same human surname.

Sharivan was completely human, but he was specially trained by Gavan to become a completely different space sheriff, If I had to guess of previously unused name.

Shaider was human but I descendant of the original Shaider.

Because of these fact I do not call Geki "Gavan". He is not Gavan, He does not even completely look like Gavan in suit. He is G-Type. G-type is his Sherrif title. As long as Gavan is alive (And the movie better not kill him off), Only Gavan is Gavan.

[Noname215]

I hate Obama’s ugly face. I hate Romney’s teeth.

[Jennifer]

I don't particularly like carets. Carats are OK though, and so are carrots.