Movie Paradox that nobody mentions

[Rogers]

I have kept this to myself for about a year, mostly because the semantics necessary to describe this are beyond me...but here it goes.

From movie 2 onwards, there is an atrocious paradox. This is because of the trip to 2015, and the subsequent events that was caused by this. Basically, we have the following events happen in sequence:

-Doc and Marty go to 2015 where Future Marty was in a car accident.
-Old Biff goes to 1955, Doc and Marty follow and get the Almanac back,
-Lightning sends the Delorean to the old West, Marty follows.
-Marty overcomes his "chicken" phobia in the West and goes back to 1985
-Marty with new experiences does not get in a car accident.

This means that the 2015 from movie 2 is erased and Future Marty is no longer a loser. This means Marty Jr. will grow up better and there is no need for Doc to bring Marty to 2015. Biff never sees the almanac/time machine and he doesn't go to 1955 to meet his younger self. This means Marty doesn't go to the Wild West and never gets over his "chicken phobia", but this means that the 2015 with loser Future Marty DOES exist...

So, this is a complete paradox, as bad as there being a Carl Sagan in FCB's timeline.

[Ribs]

You don't really get how Time Travel works in the movies, do you?

[Rogers]

What's that supposed to mean? Care to elaborate?

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

For one thing it's been brought up several times including the movies;
during part II the biffhoric timeline Doc indicates they can't go back to 2015 and stop Biff from stealing the time machine because it's a different timeline.

[Rogers]

They don't address it at all. Let's put it this way: What if Marty shot Biff to death in 1985 after the third movie? That Biff could never become Old Biff, and Old Biff can therefore never start the chain of events that leads to the Wild West. This would erase everything after the first movie, which means that Biff would again be alive. This is an infinite paradoxical loop, and it's the same as Marty changing the future by not getting in an accident.

[sn939]

I agree that logically it WOULD be a paradox (as would be a LOT of other things in BTTF2 and 3), but the way time travel is presented in the movies, I don't think it would be such a problem.

There are many ways to look at it, and this is one of the ways I rationalize it. The 2015 we see in BTTF2 is ONE possible future-a logical extrapolation of events as they stand on October 26th 1985. As of October 26th 1985, the most likely future was that Marty would get into the accident the next day, break his hand, and become the loser we see in the movie. Hence, that's the future the time traveler's see when they depart for 2015 from that date.

But on October 27th 1985, Marty chooses NOT to race Needles, owing to the lesson he learnt in the Old West. From that point onwards, the most likely future is one where Marty becomes successful. So, if the Delorean was still intact and someone jumped to 2015 the moment BEFORE Marty refused to race Needles in BTTF3, they would see the future we saw in the film; if they jumped to 2015 the moment AFTER he refused to race Needles (and the YOU'RE FIRED fax was erased), they would find a new future.

Another way to look at it is Doc's explanation in BTTF2; Marty's race with Needles is a crucial event (a temporal 'junction point' of sorts!) and that event being altered causes the timeline to 'skew into a tangent' resulting in an alternate 2015. Marty, at the end of the trilogy, is destined to live in this alternate 2015, while the 'original' 2015 of BTTF2 was erased.

[Falanca]

I think it's the same with other paradoxes in the movie. All in all it's proven that the time continuum shown in the movies are much more resistant to paradoxes than Doc thinks, in a way not a "circulation of events with contradicting results" is important, but the "final change" always takes effect (what matters of "final" is simply what movie thinks instead of the chronologic order of events).

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

I agree that logically it WOULD be a paradox (as would be a LOT of other things in BTTF2 and 3), but the way time travel is presented in the movies, I don't think it would be such a problem.

There are many ways to look at it, and this is one of the ways I rationalize it. The 2015 we see in BTTF2 is ONE possible future-a logical extrapolation of events as they stand on October 26th 1985. As of October 26th 1985, the most likely future was that Marty would get into the accident the next day, break his hand, and become the loser we see in the movie. Hence, that's the future the time traveler's see when they depart for 2015 from that date.

But on October 27th 1985, Marty chooses NOT to race Needles, owing to the lesson he learnt in the Old West. From that point onwards, the most likely future is one where Marty becomes successful. So, if the Delorean was still intact and someone jumped to 2015 the moment BEFORE Marty refused to race Needles in BTTF3, they would see the future we saw in the film; if they jumped to 2015 the moment AFTER he refused to race Needles (and the YOU'RE FIRED fax was erased), they would find a new future.

Another way to look at it is Doc's explanation in BTTF2; Marty's race with Needles is a crucial event (a temporal 'junction point' of sorts!) and that event being altered causes the timeline to 'skew into a tangent' resulting in an alternate 2015. Marty, at the end of the trilogy, is destined to live in this alternate 2015, while the 'original' 2015 of BTTF2 was erased.

Exactly. It clearly is the most likely future up until Marty avoids the race hence why doc travels to 2015 multiple times and everything plays out the exact same way until he actually makes a change. Marty or Buford or Biff easily could have died in many of their encounters for the remainder of the films, that would have avoided that 2015 but it doesn't. That version of 2015 has been avoided similar to how the current version of 1985 is altered in the Biffhoric timeline and later returned. But their clearly is evidence that the 'other' marty we see in 1955 is from the original timeline as well (seems to go through the same fading, also I'd think his last conversation with George and Lorraine would go differently if he's from the Biffhoric timeline where George dies in 1973.

[sn939]

Exactly. It clearly is the most likely future up until Marty avoids the race hence why doc travels to 2015 multiple times and everything plays out the exact same way until he actually makes a change. Marty or Buford or Biff easily could have died in many of their encounters for the remainder of the films, that would have avoided that 2015 but it doesn't. That version of 2015 has been avoided similar to how the current version of 1985 is altered in the Biffhoric timeline and later returned. But their clearly is evidence that the 'other' marty we see in 1955 is from the original timeline as well (seems to go through the same fading, also I'd think his last conversation with George and Lorraine would go differently if he's from the Biffhoric timeline where George dies in 1973.

Agreed. The 'other' Marty in 1955 IS the original Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1. Just like Old Biff is from Lone Pine 2015. And no matter how much the timeline is changed, this will ALWAYS be the case.

So, in the final timeline, in 1985, Marty grew up with successful parents...and in 2015, he became a successful rock star. However, the time traveling Marty in 1955 would remember growing up with loser parents, and Old Biff in 1955 would remember Marty being a loser who 'flushed his life down the toilet' in 2015...

[Tornreaper]

This kind of isn't a paradox. It would be a paradox if it happened like you describe it but it's not really clear if the reason Marty Jr. did the robbery because his Dad was a loser. There is a possibility he still says yes to biff. If anything this paradox you mention is speculation.

But then again it's a paradox simply when they prevent the robbery from happening.

[sn939]

Agreed...though people tend to believe (or rather...hope), that in the final timeline, Marty Jr DOESN'T end up a wimp. In fact, since 2015 Marty in the final timeline would know about the danger of his son falling into Griff's company, he would do his best to stop that from happening.

But yeah, a LOT of things in BTTF2 and 3 would DEFINETLY lead to paradoxes, logically-

1. Marty preventing Marty Jr. from taking part in the robbery; in turn prevents Doc from learning about it in the first place.

2. Old Biff giving the Almanac to Young Biff, which not only erases his very EXISTENCE in 2015, but also prevents the invention of the time machine ITSELF...thus making it impossible, both ways, for him to steal it and give the Almanac in the first place.

3. Marty and Doc, by burning the Almanac in 1955 and restoring the normal timeline, would also cause a paradox as their earlier selves would be unaware that they needed to travel back and destroy the Almanac.

4. Marty saving Doc from Bufford Tannen means there won't be any tombstone in 1955 for Marty to learn about his 'death' and have a reason to go back to 1885 in the first place.

5. And Marty refusing to race Needles might mean that Doc would have no reason at the end of BTTF1/start of BTTF2 to travel back and initiate the sequence of events that culminated in Marty's decision to refuse to race Needles.

However, these paradoxes only occur if you believe that it is necessary for stable circular loops to be maintained within a timeline...and the time travelers only recall information that exists within the final timeline. But that is clearly not the case. Marty and Doc both remember timelines and events which have been erased. For instance, Marty still remembers his loser parents. Both he and Doc remember Hell Valley long after that timeline was erased. If Marty and Doc visit a timeline, then even after it is erased, they will remember it. And if Marty can remember meeting a version of Biff who killed George, why can't Doc remember learning about a version of Marty who became a loser...even if both no longer exist!

[Tornreaper]

Agreed...though people tend to believe (or rather...hope), that in the final timeline, Marty Jr DOESN'T end up a wimp. In fact, since 2015 Marty in the final timeline would know about the danger of his son falling into Griff's company, he would do his best to stop that from happening.

But yeah, a LOT of things in BTTF2 and 3 would DEFINETLY lead to paradoxes, logically-

1. Marty preventing Marty Jr. from taking part in the robbery; in turn prevents Doc from learning about it in the first place.

2. Old Biff giving the Almanac to Young Biff, which not only erases his very EXISTENCE in 2015, but also prevents the invention of the time machine ITSELF...thus making it impossible, both ways, for him to steal it and give the Almanac in the first place.

3. Marty and Doc, by burning the Almanac in 1955 and restoring the normal timeline, would also cause a paradox as their earlier selves would be unaware that they needed to travel back and destroy the Almanac.

4. Marty saving Doc from Bufford Tannen means there won't be any tombstone in 1955 for Marty to learn about his 'death' and have a reason to go back to 1885 in the first place.

5. And Marty refusing to race Needles might mean that Doc would have no reason at the end of BTTF1/start of BTTF2 to travel back and initiate the sequence of events that culminated in Marty's decision to refuse to race Needles.

However, these paradoxes only occur if you believe that it is necessary for stable circular loops to be maintained within a timeline...and the time travelers only recall information that exists within the final timeline. But that is clearly not the case. Marty and Doc both remember timelines and events which have been erased. For instance, Marty still remembers his loser parents. Both he and Doc remember Hell Valley long after that timeline was erased. If Marty and Doc visit a timeline, then even after it is erased, they will remember it. And if Marty can remember meeting a version of Biff who killed George, why can't Doc remember learning about a version of Marty who became a loser...even if both no longer exist!

Exactly. Paradoxes are impossible to avoid. That's why I think it should be done differently in the series. It's fiction after all.

Also I don't think the knowledge of going back in time would work. It's been 30 years and I don't think they would remember it. It's like how Marty's parents don't recognize him as Marty from 1955.

You would think that when he was 8 and set the carpet on fire they would find it suspicious because in 1955 he said "if your kid sets fire to the living room rug when he's 8, go easy on him". I know I would find it suspicious if it happened exactly when he was 8. Truth is they forgot after all that time. Memory does it work like that IMO.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Exactly. Paradoxes are impossible to avoid. That's why I think it should be done differently in the series. It's fiction after all.

Also I don't think the knowledge of going back in time would work. It's been 30 years and I don't think they would remember it. It's like how Marty's parents don't recognize him as Marty from 1955.

You would think that when he was 8 and set the carpet on fire they would find it suspicious because in 1955 he said "if your kid sets fire to the living room rug when he's 8, go easy on him". I know I would find it suspicious if it happened exactly when he was 8. Truth is they forgot after all that time. Memory does it work like that IMO.

Marty would have been 8 years old in 1976 so 21 years passes and that event may not happen in the new timeline.


The reality is that ANY time travel with the intention of changing the timeline (which is all the intentional on screen time travels except for Doc initially going to 2015 and any of the returns to 1985) should be a paradox.

[Tornreaper]

Marty would have been 8 years old in 1976 so 21 years passes and that event may not happen in the new timeline.


The reality is that ANY time travel with the intention of changing the timeline (which is all the intentional on screen time travels except for Doc initially going to 2015 and any of the returns to 1985) should be a paradox.

To be precise it's the intention to change the timeline (Or accidentally changing the timeline). That succeeds. You could intend to change time but fail or change your mind.

Anyway it should not work like that in the series because it's too complicated.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

To be precise it's the intention to change the timeline (Or accidentally changing the timeline). That succeeds. You could intend to change time but fail or change your mind.

Anyway it should not work like that in the series because it's too complicated.

Actually not accidentally; take part I. The only intentional change to the timeline Marty makes is telling Doc about the Lybians (which I'll get to in a second).

Let's assume for a second what would happen if marty from lone pine mall makes the trip to 1955; He never would have heard the story of Sam hitting George, he may or may not have heard about a mysterious 'Marty'. But assuming the picture still fades, he'd figure out pretty quick that him pushing George out of the way of Lorraines dads car likely prevents them from meeting. He'd still know about the enchantment under the sea dance.
As for doc getting shot, that plays out the exact same way in both timelines so LP Marty likely assumed Doc is dead and still would warn him. So no paradox in part I.

[riojdn]

Now I got more confused. I think I will have to watch the series one more time.
Thanks for all the inputs though. Now I have to think about other movies too, like Source Code, Frequency, and Time Traveler's Wife. OMG.

[sn939]

Actually not accidentally; take part I. The only intentional change to the timeline Marty makes is telling Doc about the Lybians (which I'll get to in a second).

Let's assume for a second what would happen if marty from lone pine mall makes the trip to 1955; He never would have heard the story of Sam hitting George, he may or may not have heard about a mysterious 'Marty'. But assuming the picture still fades, he'd figure out pretty quick that him pushing George out of the way of Lorraines dads car likely prevents them from meeting. He'd still know about the enchantment under the sea dance.
As for doc getting shot, that plays out the exact same way in both timelines so LP Marty likely assumed Doc is dead and still would warn him. So no paradox in part I.

Agreed. In fact I believe Doc deliberately made it look like he was shot dead so as to avoid a paradox. However, he probably realised soon enough that Marty retained his memories from the original timeline...

But yeah, you're right...any attempt to intentionally change the timeline, which succeeds, would logically result in a paradox. And in BTTF2 and 3, nearly every trip to the past involves an intent to alter past events. However, Marty and Doc both retain their memories of the timelines they erase so there isn't really a problem from that end. The problem is-what happens to the Marty and Doc of the altered timelines who WOULDN'T have reasons to make those trips back?

Now, I believe in the case of Marty Jr., when Griff got arrested instead of Marty Jr., the timeline 'skewed into a tangent'...the original October 22nd 2015 (where Doc had got the newspaper on his initial trip) was simply erased and replaced by a new October 22nd 2015...in which Doc wasn't present because his trip to the future occurred before (in meta-time) the timeline skewed. The same applies for the entire future we see in BTTF2...that future timeline is erased, and I believe that in the final 2015, Marty, Doc and Jennifer WON'T show up.

When it comes to all changes pertaining to Hell Valley-well, I believe that its again a case of the LP timeline being erased in favor of 1985-A owing to Old Biff's trip skewing the timeline into a tangent...and Marty, Doc and Jennifer were simply shifted into this new timeline by virtue of being in 2015 when the ripple effect hit. Later, when Marty and Doc restore the LP timeline, Jennifer and Einstien are shifted back to the LP timeline because they belong to that timeline...in the final timeline there simply WOULDN'T be a Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien during those late night/early morning hours.

Finally, when it comes to Doc's tombstone...well its difficult to get around the fact that there SHOULD be a Marty in 1955 who doesn't see the tombstone (since SOMEONE had to get the Delorean out of the Delgado Mine and read the Western Union letter...which would both exist in the final timeline). I believe that this Marty will see the picture of him and Doc by the Clock Tower, figure out he needs to go back, and will get 'folded into' 'our' Marty, who DOES remember seeing the tombstone.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Sn there is no evidence that the pre destination theory is present, according to these films, the only part of the future which is not written is time travel. That doesn't mean it's not possible, we seem to see it from the first occurance.

Now I got more confused. I think I will have to watch the series one more time.
Thanks for all the inputs though. Now I have to think about other movies too, like Source Code, Frequency, and Time Traveler's Wife. OMG.

I'll help you.
Source code is pretty easy since all the events are within the same day.
Frequency; kind of a hybrid of time travel theories. The timeline does get changed (not through time travel but communication with the past) and it indicates the future son remembers both timelines (which is Sn's theory of what should happen with Marty.
Time Traveler's wife; does not follow the same rules as BTTF. According to this film, time travel is already written into the timeline (much like 12 monkey's) so there are no alternate timelines or paradoxes. For instance we see the main character attempt to save his mother's death several times without success. He realizes whatever is meant to be is meant to be and the timeline can't be changed.

[sn939]

Sn there is no evidence that the pre destination theory is present, according to these films, the only part of the future which is not written is time travel. That doesn't mean it's not possible, we seem to see it from the first occurance.



I'll help you.
Source code is pretty easy since all the events are within the same day.
Frequency; kind of a hybrid of time travel theories. The timeline does get changed (not through time travel but communication with the past) and it indicates the future son remembers both timelines (which is Sn's theory of what should happen with Marty.
Time Traveler's wife; does not follow the same rules as BTTF. According to this film, time travel is already written into the timeline (much like 12 monkey's) so there are no alternate timelines or paradoxes. For instance we see the main character attempt to save his mother's death several times without success. He realizes whatever is meant to be is meant to be and the timeline can't be changed.

Frequency to my mind is the most unrealistic and convoluted time travel movie. Sure, the premise is very interesting, and the plot is great, but it really ranks WAY below BTTF in terms of plausibility...especially with regards to the memory issue.

I mean, let's consider the memory thing. The protagonist (can't recall his name) communicates with his father in the past using an old radio. This leads to the past being altered, and suddenly the protagonist remembers BOTH timelines. But why? What's so special about the protagonist that he remembers the original timeline when no one else did? After all, he's not a time traveler...he was in the present like everyone else when the timeline change happened...why is he immune to the 'ripple effect'? (they don't call it that...but you get the idea).

At least in Marty and Doc's case, they are actually time travelers, so it makes sense for them to remember their original histories.

[Jennifer]

Frequency to my mind is the most unrealistic and convoluted time travel movie. Sure, the premise is very interesting, and the plot is great, but it really ranks WAY below BTTF in terms of plausibility...especially with regards to the memory issue.

I mean, let's consider the memory thing. The protagonist (can't recall his name) communicates with his father in the past using an old radio. This leads to the past being altered, and suddenly the protagonist remembers BOTH timelines. But why? What's so special about the protagonist that he remembers the original timeline when no one else did? After all, he's not a time traveler...he was in the present like everyone else when the timeline change happened...why is he immune to the 'ripple effect'? (they don't call it that...but you get the idea).

At least in Marty and Doc's case, they are actually time travelers, so it makes sense for them to remember their original histories.
I love Frequency, and never really had a problem with the two memories plot line. The way I see it, the atmospheric interference that gave him the ability to communicate with his dad via HAM radio in the past is very localized since only that particular radio that seems to be affected. So it's the localized atmospheric interference around the radio that created the bubble effect for him. No one else was in the vicinity of the radio, so they retained only new memories.

[sn939]

I love Frequency, and never really had a problem with the two memories plot line. The way I see it, the atmospheric interference that gave him the ability to communicate with his dad via HAM radio in the past is very localized since only that particular radio that seems to be affected. So it's the localized atmospheric interference around the radio that created the bubble effect for him. No one else was in the vicinity of the radio, so they retained only new memories.

Hey, now that you put it that way...it makes a bit of sense :)

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

I love Frequency, and never really had a problem with the two memories plot line. The way I see it, the atmospheric interference that gave him the ability to communicate with his dad via HAM radio in the past is very localized since only that particular radio that seems to be affected. So it's the localized atmospheric interference around the radio that created the bubble effect for him. No one else was in the vicinity of the radio, so they retained only new memories.

I agree. In a sense those radio waves are traveling through time and Jim Caviezels character (named John) is the one sending them.

[LuigiHann]

http://www.mjyoung.net/time/ this is a great site for that sort of thing. Essays exist for most of the things discussed in this thread. Some may argue that it's unfair for him to enforce his own "rules" on all time travel movies, even though different movies seem to present different models of time travel, but he does a good job justifying it for the most part.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

http://www.mjyoung.net/time/ this is a great site for that sort of thing. Essays exist for most of the things discussed in this thread. Some may argue that it's unfair for him to enforce his own "rules" on all time travel movies, even though different movies seem to present different models of time travel, but he does a good job justifying it for the most part.

Sorry to dismiss it this early dude but I haven't even read it. There's basically 2 main time travel theories; pre destination and post destination
pre destination implies there's only been one timeline (see the 12 monkeys, terminator 1, or the time travelers wife) which has already had all time travel entrenched in it and thus makes it impossible to change the timeline.
post desitnation implies that the timeline CAN be changed as time travel is not entrenched in the timeline as we see in BTTF.

[LuigiHann]

Sorry to dismiss it this early dude but I haven't even read it. There's basically 2 main time travel theories; pre destination and post destination
pre destination implies there's only been one timeline (see the 12 monkeys, terminator 1, or the time travelers wife) which has already had all time travel entrenched in it and thus makes it impossible to change the timeline.
post desitnation implies that the timeline CAN be changed as time travel is not entrenched in the timeline as we see in BTTF.

He analyzes both the Terminator and 12 Monkeys, you should check those articles out. In his model, the "predestination" model is effectively an illusion created when the timeline resolves into a self-consistent loop. Basically, every time travel story must have an original timeline that leads up to the initial time travel departure, and most stories do end up in a consistent self-resolving loop, and so the main difference between the apparently different models is just, which iteration is the movie showing us? BTTF-style movies tend to show the first iteration with more drastic changes, and Terminator-style movies tend to show a late iteration with more self-consistency, but every story must have an alpha timeline in its past, and the fascinating parts of his articles are his attempts to piece those alpha timelines together.

[sn939]

He analyzes both the Terminator and 12 Monkeys, you should check those articles out. In his model, the "predestination" model is effectively an illusion created when the timeline resolves into a self-consistent loop. Basically, every time travel story must have an original timeline that leads up to the initial time travel departure, and most stories do end up in a consistent self-resolving loop, and so the main difference between the apparently different models is just, which iteration is the movie showing us? BTTF-style movies tend to show the first iteration with more drastic changes, and Terminator-style movies tend to show a late iteration with more self-consistency, but every story must have an alpha timeline in its past, and the fascinating parts of his articles are his attempts to piece those alpha timelines together.

I'm a great admirer of MJ Young's site, though I agree that he is a bit TOO rigid in his analysis-applying his own 'replacement theory' on every movie analyzed. Then again, that's his prerogative.

MJ Young's analysis of the BTTF movies is quiet interesting insofar as it highlights most of the logical paradoxes in the movies, BTTF2 and 3 in particular. According to Young, BTTF1 is more or less plausible as per his theory, as he believes that the timeline will eventually resolve into a self-consistent loop indistinguishable from a predestination paradox (basically, we'd end with Marty going back to 1955 and becoming the 'Calvin Klien' he'd heard about all his life!) This even answers thew age-old TP/LP argument by simply stating that Twin Pines Marty would simply cease to exist in the next iteration of the timeline and would be completely replaced by Lone Pine Marty.

BTTF2 and 3 understandably fall apart in his analysis. He points out no less than TWO anomalies associated with Marty and Jennifer's initial trip to the future, and dismisses the whole Almanac and 1985-A subplot as being paradoxical enough to destroy time completely. And he believes the tombstone paradox would simply kill the logic of BTTF3.

So obviously, his theory is not the best theory around to explain the logic of most time travel movies like BTTF, but it IS an interesting explanation for the creation of stable time loops.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Some people who are wondering "which Marty is the other one in 1955 in part II and when did he come from" should consider the following;
This Marty seems to go through the exact same tribulations as our marty did in the first film;
Remember when Marty sees George punch out biff in part one, he likely would have left the school and go to the clocktower immediately if not for the picture fading. Because his siblings are still faded he realizes he needs to ensure music is played to dance to. And we do see 'Marty I' still looking at the picture several times in part II. So this likely explains the so-called 'tombstomb paradox'

[sn939]

Some people who are wondering "which Marty is the other one in 1955 in part II and when did he come from" should consider the following;
This Marty seems to go through the exact same tribulations as our marty did in the first film;
Remember when Marty sees George punch out biff in part one, he likely would have left the school and go to the clocktower immediately if not for the picture fading. Because his siblings are still faded he realizes he needs to ensure music is played to dance to. And we do see 'Marty I' still looking at the picture several times in part II. So this likely explains the so-called 'tombstomb paradox'

Agreed. I've often believed that the fact that BTTF1 Marty's photograph of his siblings was ALSO obviously fading in BTTF2 indicates that he is Twin Pines Marty.

In fact, the way I rationalize it, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty is Lone Pine Marty and the other Marty is still Twin Pines Marty. Because our Marty is Lone Pine Marty, he doesn't start fading when George and Lorraine almost don't kiss, because their almost not kissing before they finally do owing to Twin Pines Marty is the way HIS personal timeline is supposed to be! Whereas George and Lorraine almost not kissing is NOT part of Twin Pines Marty's personal timeline, and so his existence is endangered. The moment George and Lorraine DO kiss, Twin Pines Marty essentially becomes Lone Pine Marty in terms of causality. But the 'original' Marty in 1955 in BTTF2 is definetly Twin Pines Marty in terms of memory.

MJ Young doesn't factor this into his discussion because he simply dismisses the fading photographs/newspapers as being too 'unrealistic' (well, he's right...but they're damn realistic when it comes to BTTF's own 'rules')

[BttF_LttP]

In the Citizen Brown timeline, Artie stood up to Kid, but George did not stand up to Biff.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

In the Citizen Brown timeline, Artie stood up to Kid, but George did not stand up to Biff.

Not sure the relevance of that here lol but yes you are right, George claims he does not stand up to Biff in episode 3. And it does make sense as george and lorraine act more like they did in the first timeline. Lorraines drinking, she doesn't get along with George, he's a peeping tom (to a different extent though).

[sn939]

Not sure the relevance of that here lol but yes you are right, George claims he does not stand up to Biff in episode 3. And it does make sense as george and lorraine act more like they did in the first timeline. Lorraines drinking, she doesn't get along with George, he's a peeping tom (to a different extent though).

The real reason George and Lorraine reverted back to their TP versions is because Marty's original 1955 trip was erased from the timeline. This is explicitly stated by Marty in Episode 3.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

The real reason George and Lorraine reverted back to their TP versions is because Marty's original 1955 trip was erased from the timeline. This is explicitly stated by Marty in Episode 3.

One thing i forgot is what happened to the clocktower itself in 1955? We know it's docs office in 1986, i remember edna has a recording on the history of the clock tower including it being constructed in 1885. Obviously the lightning strike still happens but is that when they constructed it to an office?

[amrith777]

Hi all--First post for me here.This subject has always fascinated me and reading through this thread made me think about a few things.
I am a layman (woman),therefore I might not understand the finer points and nuances of quantum physics/mechanics.
According to what I understand regarding Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle (Many-Worlds Uncertainty)and Schrodinger's Cat Paradox,nothing in the movie(s) BTTF is paradoxical because all possible futures/iterations exist simultaneously and every outcome is possible because there isn't just one singular timeline.
According to the many-worlds theory--once a decision is made and an action is employed--all the events play out in a certain way on that particular timeline and the 'observer' there has no knowledge or memory regarding what goes on in any of the alternate/other universes.
The BTTF movies are among my favorites and I have found that if I question things too much that it interferes with my immersion to some extent so I just have to allow for a certain suspension of disbelief.
Having said that--all of this may possibly be moot in the first place,as from what I understand--time travel into the past is not possible/viable,as nothing can exceed the speed of light (yes--I know about neutrinos possibly refuting that,as well as even MORE theoretical tachyons).It's also my understanding that travelling to the past would set up an infinite feedback,which would have dire consequences.
So,there's my two cents. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/big_he_and_she/girl_cool.gif

[sn939]

One thing i forgot is what happened to the clocktower itself in 1955? We know it's docs office in 1986, i remember edna has a recording on the history of the clock tower including it being constructed in 1885. Obviously the lightning strike still happens but is that when they constructed it to an office?

Probably.

Actually we have no idea how 1955 turned out in this reality. All we know is that Marty didn't show up to play matchmaker for his parents.

It really depends on how much influence Edna and Emmett had been able to exert on the city by this point.

We DO know that on November 5th, Doc had the vision for the Flux Capacitor, though he didn't realize it was the key to time travel...he adapted it into his symbol instead.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Probably.

Actually we have no idea how 1955 turned out in this reality. All we know is that Marty didn't show up to play matchmaker for his parents.

It really depends on how much influence Edna and Emmett had been able to exert on the city by this point.

We DO know that on November 5th, Doc had the vision for the Flux Capacitor, though he didn't realize it was the key to time travel...he adapted it into his symbol instead.

well i'm assuming the timeline wouldnt be that different that the weather could have changed :) I just dont' remember if Edna mentions anything about it getting struck by lightning in 1955.

This is a good indication of the 'self preservation theory'; that the space time continuum avoids paradoxes and has similar events happening in different timelines.

[sn939]

well i'm assuming the timeline wouldnt be that different that the weather could have changed :) I just dont' remember if Edna mentions anything about it getting struck by lightning in 1955.

This is a good indication of the 'self preservation theory'; that the space time continuum avoids paradoxes and has similar events happening in different timelines.

Well, I'm not sure about the 'avoiding paradoxes' parts-since time travel not being invented is a HUGE paradox...but you're right about the 'similar events' part.

We can be certain though that even in this timeline, George got hit by Lorraine's dad's car...since that's the only way she would fall in love with him (without Marty playing matchmaker).

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Well, I'm not sure about the 'avoiding paradoxes' parts-since time travel not being invented is a HUGE paradox...but you're right about the 'similar events' part.

We can be certain though that even in this timeline, George got hit by Lorraine's dad's car...since that's the only way she would fall in love with him (without Marty playing matchmaker).

its sketchy about 1955 all we can assume is there was no marty, like you previously stated we dont know whether edna and Emmett were in power. If they were (lets say it was run the same way as they ran 1986) george wouldn't have been a peeping tom, that sort of thing would have been punished.

Even with time travel not being invented, you could argue the space time continuum still provided the avenue for that to happen. For instance some of docs notebook gets erased but not all did (though you could argue doc still invents the flux capacitor).

[sn939]

its sketchy about 1955 all we can assume is there was no marty, like you previously stated we dont know whether edna and Emmett were in power. If they were (lets say it was run the same way as they ran 1986) george wouldn't have been a peeping tom, that sort of thing would have been punished.

Even with time travel not being invented, you could argue the space time continuum still provided the avenue for that to happen. For instance some of docs notebook gets erased but not all did (though you could argue doc still invents the flux capacitor).

Maybe they were just starting to gain power and influence, but they hadn't taken over the city yet completely and established their police state. Obviously the process of establishing the 'Citizen Brown' state was a gradual one spanning decades...it didn't happen overnight!

[BttF_LttP]

Not sure the relevance of that here lol but yes you are right, George claims he does not stand up to Biff in episode 3. And it does make sense as george and lorraine act more like they did in the first timeline. Lorraines drinking, she doesn't get along with George, he's a peeping tom (to a different extent though).

What I'm saying is that it shows that just because one McFly learns to stand up for himself, does not mean that his son does. So, Marty standing up to Needles has no effect on Marty Jr.'s relationship with Griff.

[sn939]

What I'm saying is that it shows that just because one McFly learns to stand up for himself, does not mean that his son does. So, Marty standing up to Needles has no effect on Marty Jr.'s relationship with Griff.

True enough. Still I feel that since Marty, in the Eastwood timeline, has seen what his son ended up being in Lone Pine 2015, may well make efforts to ensure he turns out differently, and stands up to Griff. If he had the will to change his own future, you can be damned sure he will at least try to change his son's!

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

What I'm saying is that it shows that just because one McFly learns to stand up for himself, does not mean that his son does. So, Marty standing up to Needles has no effect on Marty Jr.'s relationship with Griff.

True enough. Still I feel that since Marty, in the Eastwood timeline, has seen what his son ended up being in Lone Pine 2015, may well make efforts to ensure he turns out differently, and stands up to Griff. If he had the will to change his own future, you can be damned sure he will at least try to change his son's!

both valid points here; Marty learned to stand up for himself on his own without George. Look at the different timelines;
twin pine: Arthur coward, George coward,
lone pine: Arthur coward, george confident
FCB: Arthur confident, george coward
last timeline: Arthur confident, george confident

[sn939]

both valid points here; Marty learned to stand up for himself on his own without George. Look at the different timelines;
twin pine: Arthur coward, George coward,
lone pine: Arthur coward, george confident
FCB: Arthur confident, george coward
last timeline: Arthur confident, george confident

Interesting observation.

That said, the FCB timeline is particularly interesting, since it seems to imply that George would be a coward regardless of whether his father was one or not, unless Marty intervened in 1955.

So I admit, it IS possible to make the case that Marty Jr. will be a wimp and messed up regardless of whether Marty is successful or not...except that in this case, Marty KNOWS what his son would have ended up like in a possible future and will actively take steps to ensure that doesn't happen.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Interesting observation.

That said, the FCB timeline is particularly interesting, since it seems to imply that George would be a coward regardless of whether his father was one or not, unless Marty intervened in 1955.

So I admit, it IS possible to make the case that Marty Jr. will be a wimp and messed up regardless of whether Marty is successful or not...except that in this case, Marty KNOWS what his son would have ended up like in a possible future and will actively take steps to ensure that doesn't happen.

There isn't a lot of evidence to base Marty Jr on, we only see him in one timeline. You could argue that in that timeline Biff has extra resent over George since George standing up for him turned both their lives around (george in a positive way, biff in a negative one). Marty doesn't seem to be the type to be bullied but it's quite possible Biff influences griff to be a bully. In the timelines Biff doesn't end up like a loser (twin pines, maybe biffhoric) he doesnt need Griff to 'avenge' him perhaps

[sn939]

There isn't a lot of evidence to base Marty Jr on, we only see him in one timeline. You could argue that in that timeline Biff has extra resent over George since George standing up for him turned both their lives around (george in a positive way, biff in a negative one). Marty doesn't seem to be the type to be bullied but it's quite possible Biff influences griff to be a bully. In the timelines Biff doesn't end up like a loser (twin pines, maybe biffhoric) he doesnt need Griff to 'avenge' him perhaps

I dunno...I suppose a lot depends also on Biff's daughter, Tiff Tannen (?), who's Griff's mother. We don't know how her life was affected by the change in her father's past. Hell, it leads one to question-did Biff marry the SAME woman in both the Twin Pines and Lone Pine timelines? Would bullying corrupt executive Biff and the wimpy mechanic Biff have the same wife and daughter? Hell, was Biff married AT ALL in the Twin Pines timeline? The Bobs lead us to believe that the Space-time continuum tries to keep things consistent between timeline, but I'm pretty sure the change in Biff's fortunes would significantly impact his family and his descendants.

[Jennifer]

I dunno...I suppose a lot depends also on Biff's daughter, Tiff Tannen (?), who's Griff's mother. We don't know how her life was affected by the change in her father's past. Hell, it leads one to question-did Biff marry the SAME woman in both the Twin Pines and Lone Pine timelines? Would bullying corrupt executive Biff and the wimpy mechanic Biff have the same wife and daughter? Hell, was Biff married AT ALL in the Twin Pines timeline? The Bobs lead us to believe that the Space-time continuum tries to keep things consistent between timeline, but I'm pretty sure the change in Biff's fortunes would significantly impact his family and his descendants.
Confusing things even more, if you take the television show (and the draft for Back to the Future II) into account, Biff had a son named Biff Tannen Jr (who in the draft of Back to the Future II owned Cafe 80s and was meant to be Griff's father). It's possible Biff had both kids (Biff Jr is said to be 11 in 1992, so he'd only be 5 during Back to the Future: The game), but it's also possible the timeline changes in the second 1955 trip caused Biff to have a girl instead of a boy, and she still named her son Griff making the Griff Doc got the duplicate DeLorean from in the 21st century in the game a whole different person.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Confusing things even more, if you take the television show (and the draft for Back to the Future II) into account, Biff had a son named Biff Tannen Jr (who in the draft of Back to the Future II owned Cafe 80s and was meant to be Griff's father). It's possible Biff had both kids (Biff Jr is said to be 11 in 1992, so he'd only be 5 during Back to the Future: The game), but it's also possible the timeline changes in the second 1955 trip caused Biff to have a girl instead of a boy, and she still named her son Griff making the Griff Doc got the duplicate DeLorean from in the 21st century in the game a whole different person.

It's not stated in the animated series who Griffs parent is. Biff Jr. is a rival to Verne and Jules but Griff is only seen/referenced in one episode; they go to 2091 and Griff is an old man in jail.

[sn939]

Confusing things even more, if you take the television show (and the draft for Back to the Future II) into account, Biff had a son named Biff Tannen Jr (who in the draft of Back to the Future II owned Cafe 80s and was meant to be Griff's father). It's possible Biff had both kids (Biff Jr is said to be 11 in 1992, so he'd only be 5 during Back to the Future: The game), but it's also possible the timeline changes in the second 1955 trip caused Biff to have a girl instead of a boy, and she still named her son Griff making the Griff Doc got the duplicate DeLorean from in the 21st century in the game a whole different person.

That's an intriguing theory...though I can't really see how the second 1955 trip would alter Biff's destiny to the extent of affecting his offspring. Biff's personality didn't seem THAT different between the Lone Pine and Eastwood timelines.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

That's an intriguing theory...though I can't really see how the second 1955 trip would alter Biff's destiny to the extent of affecting his offspring. Biff's personality didn't seem THAT different between the Lone Pine and Eastwood timelines.

Well he did use the word 'butthead' in the eastwood timeline, something he doesnt in 1985 LP timeline. You could argue the second manure crash could have changed things; he stiffs Terry the first time around so Terry would either refuse him or demand the money up fron the second time around. Who knows what happened the first time around after getting punched out. It's possible he stuck around, went after George etc but got pre occupied once he had the almanac.

[Tornreaper]

Yeah I don't think 1955 trip affected his offspring. I think he had both Biff Jr and Tiff but weren't shown in the movie. Remember when he said "Third times the charm"?

Also I think Biff has always been the same but he's nice around George and his family.

[sn939]

Yeah I don't think 1955 trip affected his offspring. I think he had both Biff Jr and Tiff but weren't shown in the movie. Remember when he said "Third times the charm"?

Also I think Biff has always been the same but he's nice around George and his family.

True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...

[Tornreaper]

True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...

Right. However since there is no proof of this we can just call it fate.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...

look at it this way;
in the biffhoric timeline its indicated Lorraine was his third marriage and his first two were celebrities (can't remember who the first was, the second seemed to be Marilyn Monroe). So unlikely griff is born in this timeline unless it's due to adultery.

[Shamus1885]

Agreed. I've often believed that the fact that BTTF1 Marty's photograph of his siblings was ALSO obviously fading in BTTF2 indicates that he is Twin Pines Marty.

In fact, the way I rationalize it, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty is Lone Pine Marty and the other Marty is still Twin Pines Marty. Because our Marty is Lone Pine Marty, he doesn't start fading when George and Lorraine almost don't kiss, because their almost not kissing before they finally do owing to Twin Pines Marty is the way HIS personal timeline is supposed to be! Whereas George and Lorraine almost not kissing is NOT part of Twin Pines Marty's personal timeline, and so his existence is endangered. The moment George and Lorraine DO kiss, Twin Pines Marty essentially becomes Lone Pine Marty in terms of causality. But the 'original' Marty in 1955 in BTTF2 is definetly Twin Pines Marty in terms of memory.

MJ Young doesn't factor this into his discussion because he simply dismisses the fading photographs/newspapers as being too 'unrealistic' (well, he's right...but they're damn realistic when it comes to BTTF's own 'rules')

The way I see it is when LP Marty goes back to 1955 in pt 2, I think the TP Marty would have ceased to exist. Think about it. The first time Marty comes back to 1985 to try and save the Doc from being shot (who is now the LP Doc that already knows Marty from the past), he see himself in the Delorean, running from the terrorists. Well if Doc is the LP Doc, wouldn't that now make that Marty who was about to go back in time, the new LP Marty? As a matter of fact, that whole scenario with the terrorists actually would have been altered because there would have been a major butterfly effect caused my Marty meeting Doc in 1955. There is a major paradox there for sure.

[Jennifer]

The way I see it is when LP Marty goes back to 1955 in pt 2, I think the TP Marty would have ceased to exist. Think about it. The first time Marty comes back to 1985 to try and save the Doc from being shot (who is now the LP Doc that already knows Marty from the past), he see himself in the Delorean, running from the terrorists. Well if Doc is the LP Doc, wouldn't that now make that Marty who was about to go back in time, the new LP Marty?
He did assume the role of Lone Pine Marty, but he's still Twin Pines Marty since he still remembers the Twin Pines reality (as seen when he is surprised about how well off his family is). So Twin Pines Marty didn't cease to exist.

My theory is that the Back to the Future universe is cyclical. I think that's the reason Doc built the time train, to make sure that the changes he and Marty made would have allowed Lone Pine Marty to follow the same course. So, that's the reason the photo turned to grass instead of a tombstone, when it would have made more sense for the photo to just disappear, because Doc hadn't yet put up a new tombstone to make sure that Lone Pine Marty traveled to 1885. So, Lone Pine Marty didn't cease to exist either. He would return to 1985, and see himself leaving for 1955, then that Marty would return and see himself leaving for 1955, ad nauseum.

[Jdavis203]

BTTF time travel rules are actually pretty simple.

1. affecting people: when you go back into the past you can alter a persons course on the timeline, unfortunately you never know what effect you may have (thus the risk of fading)

2. affecting places: theoretically a building, monument, town etc, will always exist as long as the creation of it was not interfered with (Edna burns down Hill Valley, no Hill Valley in the future)
Also this explains some of the "paradoxes" in the movies:
BTTF 2:
Even though old Biff went back into the past and altered the timeline, he had nothing to do with the creation of the Sports Almanac. So Biff erased his own old existence, but not the existence of the book.

3. affecting things: This part will include the DeLorean, but its relatively simple. Its the same rules that apply to affecting places. The DeLorean will always exist in one form or another because of the simple fact that the components that were used to build it exist.

There has also always been a lag associated with how long a specific change effects Marty, Doc, or any time traveling vehicles, thus giving plenty of time to fix any wrongs that might have occured.

[sn939]

He did assume the role of Lone Pine Marty, but he's still Twin Pines Marty since he still remembers the Twin Pines reality (as seen when he is surprised about how well off his family is). So Twin Pines Marty didn't cease to exist.

My theory is that the Back to the Future universe is cyclical. I think that's the reason Doc built the time train, to make sure that the changes he and Marty made would have allowed Lone Pine Marty to follow the same course. So, that's the reason the photo turned to grass instead of a tombstone, when it would have made more sense for the photo to just disappear, because Doc hadn't yet put up a new tombstone to make sure that Lone Pine Marty traveled to 1885. So, Lone Pine Marty didn't cease to exist either. He would return to 1985, and see himself leaving for 1955, then that Marty would return and see himself leaving for 1955, ad nauseum.

That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!

Throughout the trilogy, the idea that is presented is that there is only ONE Marty...except when he travels to a time period where he already exists (1955 in BTTF2 for e.g.) or when he's in an alternate timeline where his younger self never started time traveling (Hell Valley, Citizen Brown etc.). The idea of, say, two Marty's co-existing along the same timeline and having the same adventures (almost as though one was playing 'catch up' with the other) is kinda absurd. Once 'our' Marty goes back and saves Doc in 1885, the tombstone vanishes from the picture. Sure, that may logically be a paradox, but that's with regards to OUR Marty's trip...its not like Doc has to worry about some OTHER Marty making a SECOND trip to 1885...

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!

Throughout the trilogy, the idea that is presented is that there is only ONE Marty...except when he travels to a time period where he already exists (1955 in BTTF2 for e.g.) or when he's in an alternate timeline where his younger self never started time traveling (Hell Valley, Citizen Brown etc.). The idea of, say, two Marty's co-existing along the same timeline and having the same adventures (almost as though one was playing 'catch up' with the other) is kinda absurd. Once 'our' Marty goes back and saves Doc in 1885, the tombstone vanishes from the picture. Sure, that may logically be a paradox, but that's with regards to OUR Marty's trip...its not like Doc has to worry about some OTHER Marty making a SECOND trip to 1885...

I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently; doc would have kept marty indoors for that week and even if Marty did go to the dance with Lorraine, it's the fading picture that eventually causes him to go on stage and play the guitar (this by the way is proof that in part II, that marty went through the same thing as ours. His picture clearly fades as well, otherwise he would have left after George punched out Biff). Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?

One other thing to consider; lone pine marty has a truck so why didn't he drive it to the mall?

[sn939]

BTTF time travel rules are actually pretty simple.

1. affecting people: when you go back into the past you can alter a persons course on the timeline, unfortunately you never know what effect you may have (thus the risk of fading)

2. affecting places: theoretically a building, monument, town etc, will always exist as long as the creation of it was not interfered with (Edna burns down Hill Valley, no Hill Valley in the future)
Also this explains some of the "paradoxes" in the movies:
BTTF 2:
Even though old Biff went back into the past and altered the timeline, he had nothing to do with the creation of the Sports Almanac. So Biff erased his own old existence, but not the existence of the book.

3. affecting things: This part will include the DeLorean, but its relatively simple. Its the same rules that apply to affecting places. The DeLorean will always exist in one form or another because of the simple fact that the components that were used to build it exist.

There has also always been a lag associated with how long a specific change effects Marty, Doc, or any time traveling vehicles, thus giving plenty of time to fix any wrongs that might have occured.

Well, you certainly make a lot of good points. I've got a set of 'rules' regarding time travel in BTTF myself-

1. The fundamental rule in BTTF is that there is no such thing as a predestination paradox. So, the effects of time travel can only be seen AFTER the time travel event has occurred (in meta-time). So, Marty may have influenced Goldie Wilson to become the mayor in the LP timeline, but in the original TP timeline, Goldie became the mayor without Marty's influence. Same thing with Johnny Be Goode. The one major exception to this rule is in BTTF2-the presence of older versions of Marty and Jennifer implies that their return to 1985 from 2015 was apparently 'predestined', though how their lives unfolded during that thirty year period clearly isn't.

2. The 'future isn't written'...which means that whenever a time traveler travels to the past, the time period he comes from exists only in a theoretical sense and is constantly fluctuating based on his actions in the past. This is reflected in objects brought from the future, such as photographs and newspapers. So the picture of the tombstone in BTTF3 keeps changing, based on Marty and Doc's actions in 1885, because the picture represents 1955, and 1955 is in flux because of the very presence of time travelers in 1885. Objects from the future represent the 'most likely future' based on the status quo in the past from the time traveler's POV.

3. Even if the information contained in newspapers and photographs changes, the objects themselves are never erased from existence. So, when Marty prevents his parents first meeting, the McFly children begin to fade from the photograph, but the photograph itself doesn't cease to exist-probably because the piece of film itself would still exist in the new timeline. Same thing with the fax paper Jennifer brought with her from 2015...the 'YOU'RE FIRED' fades from the paper, but the paper itself remains, probably because the paper itself would still exist in 2015 even if Marty's future has changed. This, despite the fact that since Marty never got fired in 2015, Jennifer would have no reason to bring that paper back with her to 1985. The circumstances behind the paper's presence in 1985 have been erased, the information has been erased and yet the paper remains.

4. If an alternate timeline is created, then the time traveler's existence or non-existence depends on the fate of his/her alternate counterpart. If the time travelers alternate counterpart is alive and well in the new timeline, then the time traveler can seemingly co-exist with his/her counterpart (but we don't know how long that could last). This is what happens with Marty in Hell Valley in BTTF2. But if the time traveler's counterpart is dead, or never existed, in the new timeline, then the time traveler is erased (which is what happens to Old Biff in BTTF2).

5. If a time traveler is in a time period which is not his/her own, and another time traveler changes the past, then the first time traveler will remain immune to the changes such that reality will seemingly transform AROUND him/her/. This is the only explanation for how Marty, Doc and Jennifer were able to make it to the Hell Valley timeline when Old Biff changed the past-they were in 2015, so the timeline changed around them. We see a very vivid example of this in the game, where Hill Valley fades around Marty and Doc while they're in 1931.


I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently; doc would have kept marty indoors for that week and even if Marty did go to the dance with Lorraine, it's the fading picture that eventually causes him to go on stage and play the guitar (this by the way is proof that in part II, that marty went through the same thing as ours. His picture clearly fades as well, otherwise he would have left after George punched out Biff). Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?

One other thing to consider; lone pine marty has a truck so why didn't he drive it to the mall?

True.

I think its pretty obvious therefore that there is only ONE Marty throughout the trilogy, and ONE sequence of events.

Lone Pine Marty travels back in time to 1955 and is 'cancelled out/replaced' by Twin Pines Marty. TP Marty goes through all the events of 1955 in BTTF1, then returns to 1985 and is surprised by the LP version of his family, then accompanies Doc to 2015, then returns to 1985 only to find himself in Hell Valley, then returns to 1955, then travels to 1885, and finally returns to 1985 at the end. I believe he will get the memories of his LP counterpart eventually (and the whole 'chicken problem' may be a sign that the process already started), but I don't believe there is ever an alternate sequence of events involving a different version of Marty.

Of course, all the altered timelines DO raise the question of how much we saw on screen actually makes it to the final timeline. Well, we certainly know what DIDN'T happen. The first 30 minutes of BTTF1 could no longer have happened given that the McFly family was changed. The entire 2015 course of events are unlikely to have happened, given how Marty decides not to race Needles. The whole 1985-A segment didn't happen. Also the early part of BTTF3 where they discover the tombstone also likely didn't happen.

[Jennifer]

That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!
It's still the same timeline, just cyclical. We saw Lone Pine Marty leave in 1985. So, he left to do the same events as Twin Pines Marty. So Twin Pines 1985 Lone Pine Jennifer will see 2015 Twin Pines Marty and faint from seeing 2015 Twin Pines Jennifer (who will remember the events when she was that Jennifer). And Lone Pine Marty will travel back to 1885 to rescue Lone Pine Doc. And then Lone Pine Marty will come back to 1985 and then later take part in the events of 1986.

I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently
Lone Pine Marty would still have the photo, and Lone Pine Marty still would have saved his Dad from being hit by the car. The Doc he'd meet would be Lone Pine Doc, who wouldn't have any memory of the events since they haven't happened for him yet. So the photo still would have disappeared, and the events would have played out the same.

Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?
That's simple too. All Twin Pines Doc has to do is tell Twin Pines Marty to let things take their natural course. Marty can still be successful, but time has a knack of pitting Tannens against McFlys, so his son will still be bullied by Griff. Twin Pines Marty would know that Lone Pine Marty would come and make things right with his son.

[sn939]

It's still the same timeline, just cyclical. We saw Lone Pine Marty leave in 1985. So, he left to do the same events as Twin Pines Marty. So Twin Pines 1985 Lone Pine Jennifer will see 2015 Twin Pines Marty and faint from seeing 2015 Twin Pines Jennifer (who will remember the events when she was that Jennifer). And Lone Pine Marty will travel back to 1885 to rescue Lone Pine Doc. And then Lone Pine Marty will come back to 1985 to live the life that 1985 Twin Pines Marty did.

I'm sorry, I really can't understand exactly what you're saying...but it seems to me that you're suggesting that Lone Pine Marty ends up restoring the Twin Pines timeline somehow...but all indications are to the contrary. As we see in the Game, 6 months later, Marty is still living in the Lone Pine timeline (the Eastwood timeline to be more technical, but whatever).

[Jennifer]

I'm sorry, I really can't understand exactly what you're saying...but it seems to me that you're suggesting that Lone Pine Marty ends up restoring the Twin Pines timeline somehow...but all indications are to the contrary. As we see in the Game, 6 months later, Marty is still living in the Lone Pine timeline (the Eastwood timeline to be more technical, but whatever).
No I'm not saying he restores the timeline, I'm just saying that Lone Pine Marty takes the same trip. The 1985 Jennifer has to meet up with a 2015 Marty and Jennifer. That 1985 Jennifer is Lone Pine Jennifer and the 2015 Marty and Jennifer are Twin Pines Jennifer. Hence, time is cyclical.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

No I'm not saying he restores the timeline, I'm just saying that Lone Pine Marty takes the same trip. The 1985 Jennifer has to meet up with a 2015 Marty and Jennifer. That 1985 Jennifer is Lone Pine Jennifer and the 2015 Marty and Jennifer are Twin Pines Jennifer. Hence, time is cyclical.

Actually there is plenty of evidence that 2015 is the lone pine timeline;
-the ledge doc broke in 1955 on the clocktower is still broken
-Biff clearly did crash into the manure truck (he states he remembers it and the deleted scene has terry still whining about getting stiffed by Biff)
-Biff states George McFly is NOT a loser.
-doc states that if you go into the future it is the future of the reality you are in. They clearly left LP 1985 so they'd have to arrive in LP 2015 (this likely explains why future Marty and Jennifer are still there).



The game does continue the movie's mystical concepts that the timeline preserves itself so that similar things happen. Marty and Jennifer did have a rendezvous in the FCB timeline, also FCB steals plutonium from the libyans.

[Jennifer]

Actually there is plenty of evidence that 2015 is the lone pine timeline
I agree that the timeline is the Lone Pine timeline. By Twin Pines Marty and Twin Pines Jennifer, I meant the 1985 Jennifer and the 1985 Marty from the movies. By Lone Pine Marty, I meant the Marty that leaves 1985 at the end of the first movie.

The 1985 Jennifer from the movies is going to meet up with the Jennifer that was the girlfriend of the Marty who left at the end of the first movie in 2015. The 1985 Jennifer from the movies will remember the events since she already lived them, whereas the 2015 Jennifer in Back to the Future II didn't. Hence it's a different cycle of time.

[sn939]

I agree that the timeline is the Lone Pine timeline. By Twin Pines Marty and Twin Pines Jennifer, I meant the 1985 Jennifer and the 1985 Marty from the movies. By Lone Pine Marty, I meant the Marty that leaves 1985 at the end of the first movie.

The 1985 Jennifer from the movies is going to meet up with the Jennifer that was the girlfriend of the Marty who left at the end of the first movie in 2015. The 1985 Jennifer from the movies will remember the events since she already lived them, whereas the 2015 Jennifer in Back to the Future II didn't. Hence it's a different cycle of time.

I'm starting to understand now, but you're terminology is a bit confusing. For instance, its inaccurate to call the Jennifer we see in the movies Twin Pines Jennifer. We see Twin Pines Jennifer for a couple of scenes at the start of BTTF1. Once Marty goes back to 1955, that's the END of the Twin Pines timeline and the Twin Pines version of ANYONE! They are all replaced by the Lone Pine versions. Marty alone is still Twin Pines Marty because he's the only one who remembers the original Twin Pines timeline, since he's the one who made the time jump that erased it.

So really, its LONE PINE Jennifer we're dealing with.

And you're right that 'our' Jennifer would remember traveling to 2015, unlike the 2015 Jennifer we see in BTTF2...but then again, arguably, things will be VERY different for 'our' Jennifer in 2015 anyway (that was the very point of this thread originally!)

[Tornreaper]

It's very easy to forget those events over 30 years. The only one who remembers the events of time travel is Doc with the trips to 1931 and 1955 because he had notes that he had to wait to open. Without them and if Marty had told him what happens in the future he might just forget. Especially if Marty left and never came back. Doc only remembered Marty form 1931 because he read the newspaper clip.

[Kainchild]

And what about the new ending of the video game? Explain that one...

[Jennifer]

And what about the new ending of the video game? Explain that one...
There are multiple future Martys from multiple timestreams in one time period because of the ripple effect (which means a change in time happens like a stone thrown in a pond, and the ripples the stone makes are the effects in time due to that change). Since Marty is a time traveller, and in the Back to the Future universe it takes a long time for the ripple in time to catch up to a time traveller, time hasn't yet caught up to them yet. Doc and Marty leave all of the future Martys behind because the only Marty that matters is the one in the present, and they know that the Martys wouldn't harm their own past. The ripple effect will take care of the duplicates.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

There are multiple future Martys from multiple timestreams in one time period because of the ripple effect (which means a change in time happens like a stone thrown in a pond, and the ripples the stone makes are the effects in time due to that change). Since Marty is a time traveller, and in the Back to the Future universe it takes a long time for the ripple in time to catch up to a time traveller, time hasn't yet caught up to them yet. Doc and Marty leave all of the future Martys behind because the only Marty that matters is the one in the present, and they know that the Martys wouldn't harm their own past. The ripple effect will take care of the duplicates.

RIGHT! I use Biff as an example of how this could happen;

lone pine 2015 Biff is seen in 1955 despite the current timeline being the Biffhoric one (which its believed Biff doesnt live to 2015). Let's say in the Bfforic timeline Biff doesnt die by 2015 and he goes back to 1955, we have 2 different biffs at the same spot. Now in the eastwood timeline he goes back again, we now have 3 different Biffs in 1 timeline.

[sn939]

It's very easy to forget those events over 30 years. The only one who remembers the events of time travel is Doc with the trips to 1931 and 1955 because he had notes that he had to wait to open. Without them and if Marty had told him what happens in the future he might just forget. Especially if Marty left and never came back. Doc only remembered Marty form 1931 because he read the newspaper clip.

Honestly, I think the ONE thing someone WOULD remember for 30 years would be a time travel related event!

So even if Doc didn't remember ANYTHING about 1955, he WOULD remember spending a week with a boy from the future...regardless of whether he had a note or not.

The events of 1931 are different though...Doc might remember the Marty he knew back then, but Emmett didn't know anything about Marty being a time traveler, so he likely wouldn't equate 1931 Marty with being the Marty he meets later. Then again, I've often wondered if, in the final timeline, Doc begins to suspect the connection as early as 1955, when he first meets the time travelling Marty...

[Tornreaper]

Honestly, I think the ONE thing someone WOULD remember for 30 years would be a time travel related event!

So even if Doc didn't remember ANYTHING about 1955, he WOULD remember spending a week with a boy from the future...regardless of whether he had a note or not.

The events of 1931 are different though...Doc might remember the Marty he knew back then, but Emmett didn't know anything about Marty being a time traveler, so he likely wouldn't equate 1931 Marty with being the Marty he meets later. Then again, I've often wondered if, in the final timeline, Doc begins to suspect the connection as early as 1955, when he first meets the time travelling Marty...

Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.

[Tornreaper]

There are multiple future Martys from multiple timestreams in one time period because of the ripple effect (which means a change in time happens like a stone thrown in a pond, and the ripples the stone makes are the effects in time due to that change). Since Marty is a time traveller, and in the Back to the Future universe it takes a long time for the ripple in time to catch up to a time traveller, time hasn't yet caught up to them yet. Doc and Marty leave all of the future Martys behind because the only Marty that matters is the one in the present, and they know that the Martys wouldn't harm their own past. The ripple effect will take care of the duplicates.

I don't think that would make a great plot? The conflict is removed by them waiting for the ripple effect to kick in? There has to be a way for them to exist out of their timeline. Unless of coarse they are all in the same timeline but at different ages.

[sn939]

Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.

Why do you need 'evidence'? Its pretty OBVIOUS. Unless someone gets amnesia, they are BOUND to remember major events in their life from 30 years ago. And meeting a teenager from the future who claims that you invent a time machine 30 years later, and hell, actually SHOWS you that time machine...is DEFINETLY a major event, if not THE major event of your life!

See, I can agree with George and Lorraine not really remembering Marty from 1955 clearly...but Doc not remembering Marty DESPITE knowing he's a time traveler from the future?! Not a chance!

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.

what do you mean by 'remember' time travel? Doc clearly remembers the 1955 events from the first film by 1985, he has the letter and clearly states in part II he helped Marty return to 1985. Biff witnesses time travel in 1985 (he just doesnt know it) and remembers that event in 2015.

[Tornreaper]

what do you mean by 'remember' time travel? Doc clearly remembers the 1955 events from the first film by 1985, he has the letter and clearly states in part II he helped Marty return to 1985. Biff witnesses time travel in 1985 (he just doesnt know it) and remembers that event in 2015.

Like I said, he remembers those events because he put the note together and read it in 1985. Plus Biff remembered seeing the time machine because when he saw it again in 2015 it was a reminder to him.

Anyways I don't really think it's a paradox and I think you guys are trying to hard to find paradoxes. Saying it's a paradox that Marty can stop the conflict between his son and Griff simply because he could remember going to 2015 is just speculation. Unless you can provide me proof that this happened and that Marty did stop the event then it's not a paradox. Sure maybe he might remember the events but the details could be fuzzy.

[sn939]

Like I said, he remembers those events because he put the note together and read it in 1985. Plus Biff remembered seeing the time machine because when he saw it again in 2015 it was a reminder to him.

Anyways I don't really think it's a paradox and I think you guys are trying to hard to find paradoxes. Saying it's a paradox that Marty can stop the conflict between his son and Griff simply because he could remember going to 2015 is just speculation. Unless you can provide me proof that this happened and that Marty did stop the event then it's not a paradox. Sure maybe he might remember the events but the details could be fuzzy.

Okay, let me get this straight. Are you suggesting, that if not for the note Marty had left behind for Doc to put together, Doc would have simply forgotten about the fact that-

a) He spent a week with a kid from the future

b) The kid came in a time machine he invented (or rather WOULD invent), which he not only clearly saw with his own eyes, but even WORKED upon

And, after the events of BTTF3, we also have to take into account the fact that-

c) He read a 70 year old letter, in his OWN handwriting, from his future self who was trapped in the past; and used the instructions in that letter, to locate the buried time machine and repair it

I can definitely understand Biff, George and Lorraine forgetting about Marty over time...but for 1955 DOC to forget about it is impossible, barring a case of amnesia!

And likewise, I really don't see how Marty would ever forget about the fact that he once traveled to the future and discovered that his son was a wimp...

[Jennifer]

I don't think that would make a great plot? The conflict is removed by them waiting for the ripple effect to kick in? There has to be a way for them to exist out of their timeline. Unless of coarse they are all in the same timeline but at different ages.
They aren't from the same timeline because one future Marty states that the timeline another future Marty was from was erased.

It wasn't a cliffhanger for a second series, or the beginning of a plot for another adventure since Doc and 1986 Marty went off in the DeLorean alone to some entirely different time. The ending served as a message to Marty that the only thing that really matters is the present, and the future is what you make of it (as Doc said in Back to the Future III).

[Tornreaper]

Okay, let me get this straight. Are you suggesting, that if not for the note Marty had left behind for Doc to put together, Doc would have simply forgotten about the fact that-

a) He spent a week with a kid from the future

b) The kid came in a time machine he invented (or rather WOULD invent), which he not only clearly saw with his own eyes, but even WORKED upon

And, after the events of BTTF3, we also have to take into account the fact that-

c) He read a 70 year old letter, in his OWN handwriting, from his future self who was trapped in the past; and used the instructions in that letter, to locate the buried time machine and repair it

I can definitely understand Biff, George and Lorraine forgetting about Marty over time...but for 1955 DOC to forget about it is impossible, barring a case of amnesia!

And likewise, I really don't see how Marty would ever forget about the fact that he once traveled to the future and discovered that his son was a wimp...

Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.

Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2. ;)

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.

Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2. ;)

Except that Marty explicidly states that doc's time machine made things better, he also remembers Clayton Ravine and the significance.

I don't know who's stating it's a paradox? Biff also clearly remembers crashing into the manure truck in 1985 and 2015 how do you explain that? Sorry but to claim the letter from marty is the only reason doc remembers the events ot november 1955 is absurd.

[sn939]

Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.

Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2. ;)

I think you've confused two totally different issues. No one claimed that Doc remembering Marty from 1955 would cause a paradox at all. And I agree, details may be fuzzy for George, Lorraine and Biff...but certainly not for Doc. In fact, in BTTF2 when they return to 1955, Doc clearly remembers EVERYTHING about the events of 30 years ago!

As far as Marty in the game goes...even if he has the LP memories, he's still the original Marty in the sense that he remembers the original timeline, and remembers changing it. Marty is the ONLY person, as of the end of the game, who remembers the original timeline! His remembering subsequent timelines owing to the ripple effect updating his memory doesn't change that fact...

[jaispeed2011]

I have kept this to myself for about a year, mostly because the semantics necessary to describe this are beyond me...but here it goes.

From movie 2 onwards, there is an atrocious paradox. This is because of the trip to 2015, and the subsequent events that was caused by this. Basically, we have the following events happen in sequence:

-Doc and Marty go to 2015 where Future Marty was in a car accident.
-Old Biff goes to 1955, Doc and Marty follow and get the Almanac back,
-Lightning sends the Delorean to the old West, Marty follows.
-Marty overcomes his "chicken" phobia in the West and goes back to 1985
-Marty with new experiences does not get in a car accident.

This means that the 2015 from movie 2 is erased and Future Marty is no longer a loser. This means Marty Jr. will grow up better and there is no need for Doc to bring Marty to 2015. Biff never sees the almanac/time machine and he doesn't go to 1955 to meet his younger self. This means Marty doesn't go to the Wild West and never gets over his "chicken phobia", but this means that the 2015 with loser Future Marty DOES exist...

So, this is a complete paradox, as bad as there being a Carl Sagan in FCB's timeline.

It's actually not a paradox bro
Timeline A: Marty and Doc Goes to 2015 to Stop Marty Jr from joining the gang yada yada yada
While Marty and Doc are trying to get Jennifer from marty's 2015 house, Biff steals the deloreon going back to 1955 giving the almanac to his past self
This in fact creates timeline B:
Timeline B: 1985: biff is a crimelord, owns hillvalley...Emmit is committed and marty's father is dead....
Doc and marty then travel to 1955 to destroy the almanac before young biff can cause any damage (betting)
Once this is done,
The New Timeline Timeline C: Is created....
The Deloreon is struck by lightning sending doc to 1885,
Marty follows after repairing the time circuits making it to old west 1885 and getting over his Chicken phobia
When he jumps back to 1985, This is timeline D which starts his new destiny from there...
in common terms, he there wasn't a paradox because it was as if doc marty and jennifer never went to 2015 ... Doc, Marty and Jen remembers because they traveled through it....

[tope1983]

It's actually not a paradox bro
Timeline A: Marty and Doc Goes to 2015 to Stop Marty Jr from joining the gang yada yada yada
While Marty and Doc are trying to get Jennifer from marty's 2015 house, Biff steals the deloreon going back to 1955 giving the almanac to his past self
This in fact creates timeline B:
Timeline B: 1985: biff is a crimelord, owns hillvalley...Emmit is committed and marty's father is dead....
Doc and marty then travel to 1955 to destroy the almanac before young biff can cause any damage (betting)
Once this is done,
The New Timeline Timeline C: Is created....
The Deloreon is struck by lightning sending doc to 1885,
Marty follows after repairing the time circuits making it to old west 1885 and getting over his Chicken phobia
When he jumps back to 1985, This is timeline D which starts his new destiny from there...
in common terms, he there wasn't a paradox because it was as if doc marty and jennifer never went to 2015 ... Doc, Marty and Jen remembers because they traveled through it....


That's not how the movie rules work.
The official different timelines are these:
Back to the Future timeline (http://backtothefuture.wikia.com/wiki/Back_to_the_Future_timeline)

It all works for me quite well except for the ripple-effect, that should exclude Marty, Doc, Einstein and Jennifer in 2015. Why should they fade/jump/merge from timeline 3 to timeline 4? No one else, who is "left behind from a time travel" does that: Neither George nor Lorraine in BTTF 1, neither Doc or Einstein in BTTF 1... it just happens in BTTF 2 in 2015.
If every time travel to the past creates a new timeline that is seperated from the original one of the time traveller and if every time travel to the future is on the same timeline that you start from... this whole Marty, Doc, Einstein & Jennifer issue makes no sense at all.

Or we set up the rule: every person that time travelled at least once isn't affected by changes that are done by a different time traveller in the past. These persons are just thrown (or rippled) to the new established timeline (That would mean that Einstein is still Two Pine Mall Einstein).

[sn939]

That's not how the movie rules work.
The official different timelines are these:
Back to the Future timeline (http://backtothefuture.wikia.com/wiki/Back_to_the_Future_timeline)

It all works for me quite well except for the ripple-effect, that should exclude Marty, Doc, Einstein and Jennifer in 2015. Why should they fade/jump/merge from timeline 3 to timeline 4? No one else, who is "left behind from a time travel" does that: Neither George nor Lorraine in BTTF 1, neither Doc or Einstein in BTTF 1... it just happens in BTTF 2 in 2015.
If every time travel to the past creates a new timeline that is seperated from the original one of the time traveller and if every time travel to the future is on the same timeline that you start from... this whole Marty, Doc, Einstein & Jennifer issue makes no sense at all.

Or we set up the rule: every person that time travelled at least once isn't affected by changes that are done by a different time traveller in the past. These persons are just thrown (or rippled) to the new established timeline (That would mean that Einstein is still Two Pine Mall Einstein).

The general idea, according to Bob Gale is that time traveler's are unaffected by the ripple effect when they're in a time period other than their own. So, when Old Biff traveled back in time to 1955, he created a new timeline which rippled into 2015, transforming it into 2015-A. However, because Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien did not belong to 2015, they were unaffected by the ripple effect.

We actually see this happen very vividly in the game. When Edna goes back to 1876, Marty and Doc, who are in 1931, actually see Hill Valley disappearing around them. That's because they do not belong to 1931 and therefore, are immune to the ripple effect, hence they can actually perceive reality transforming around them.

[tope1983]

The general idea, according to Bob Gale is that time traveler's are unaffected by the ripple effect when they're in a time period other than their own. So, when Old Biff traveled back in time to 1955, he created a new timeline which rippled into 2015, transforming it into 2015-A. However, because Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien did not belong to 2015, they were unaffected by the ripple effect.

We actually see this happen very vividly in the game. When Edna goes back to 1876, Marty and Doc, who are in 1931, actually see Hill Valley disappearing around them. That's because they do not belong to 1931 and therefore, are immune to the ripple effect, hence they can actually perceive reality transforming around them.

What's the own time period of a time traveller?
As you create a new timeline by every jump into the past, a time traveller will never be in his origin time period. Whether you travel to the past and then "back" to the present (BTTF1) or whether you travel to the future and then back to the present (BTTF2). You end up in a new timeline.

Technically you lost your belonging time period. And you would be immune to any ripple effect 'caused by any other time traveller. Right?

[Tornreaper]

The general idea, according to Bob Gale is that time traveler's are unaffected by the ripple effect when they're in a time period other than their own. So, when Old Biff traveled back in time to 1955, he created a new timeline which rippled into 2015, transforming it into 2015-A. However, because Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien did not belong to 2015, they were unaffected by the ripple effect.

We actually see this happen very vividly in the game. When Edna goes back to 1876, Marty and Doc, who are in 1931, actually see Hill Valley disappearing around them. That's because they do not belong to 1931 and therefore, are immune to the ripple effect, hence they can actually perceive reality transforming around them.

Not true. When talking to Doc in episode 5 with optional dialog options he explains that because the jump was in 1876 the ripple effect was talking longer to affect them and he calculated that they had an hour before they faded out (How he can make calculations like that is beyond me).

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Not true. When talking to Doc in episode 5 with optional dialog options he explains that because the jump was in 1876 the ripple effect was talking longer to affect them and he calculated that they had an hour before they faded out (How he can make calculations like that is beyond me).

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but i've played through it twice and don't remember this happening, are you able to point out on video wheren it does?

[Tornreaper]

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but i've played through it twice and don't remember this happening, are you able to point out on video wheren it does?

You probably never picked that option then. I wasn't important to the story or anything because you had to chat with Doc to see it. Kind of like how in episode 1 you could talk to him in jail to find some backstory like how he found the temporal duplicate.

Anyways I remember seeing it in someone's LP once. Hold on a sec...

Got it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV-2BYLep94&list=PL152AB9D77B56AEB0&index=55&feature=plpp_video

@ 12:45 ;)

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

You probably never picked that option then. I wasn't important to the story or anything because you had to chat with Doc to see it. Kind of like how in episode 1 you could talk to him in jail to find some backstory like how he found the temporal duplicate.

Anyways I remember seeing it in someone's LP once. Hold on a sec...

Got it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV-2BYLep94&list=PL152AB9D77B56AEB0&index=55&feature=plpp_video

@ 12:45 ;)

Thank you. So that could also explain part II: people point out Biff seemingly returning to the same 2015 but it's possible 60 years of rippling hasn't caught up yet (in the case of epsiode 5 its' been 55 years since the ripple but doc and marty come from a point 110 years after the ripple). It's even possible they confused the space time continuum because it would be a case where the timeline would have to ripple forwards and backwards several times. Consider how this burnt hill valley timeline would play out;

-the entire 1885 sequence is pretty much guaranteed not to happen. Clara is likely still born but there'd be no hill valley school to teach at. If somehow doc did end up in the same spot he gets struck by lightning in 1955, he'd end up in an unpopulated hill valley in 1885.
-the Browns do NOT move to hill valley in 1908 since there is no hill valley. Also if you follow the original script and/or novel of part III Emmets mother sarah lathrop was already there in 1885 so it's possible Emmet hasn't been born. According to the video you posted, george is still born somehow (we do know artie is alive in that timeline)
-1955 is heavily different, there's no clock tower to get struck by lightning (unless you theorize it gets built within 24 years but thats heavily unlikely since it's improbable to have a town get populated and warrant that size of a court house so quickly. The clock itself was a gift given in 1885). Even if you buy into the notion that Hill valley could have gained a population within this time, the school wouldn't have been as heavily populated as what we saw in parts I and II. I get that the space time continuum has a way of ensuring similar things happening in different timelines but George having that exact same routine on saturday november 5th 1955 in that timeline is very unlikely. Lous cafe for instance had been the saloon in 1885 (and eventually becomes the cafe 80's by 2015) but would have been burned down.
-consider all the timelines needing to be erased in reverse; twin pine, 2 lone pines (with 2 versions of 2015s robbery), biffhoric, restored Clayton lone pine (this one only exists for around a minute between the burning of the almanac and doc getting struck by lightning), shonash timeline (timeline shown early in part III), eastwood, Carl sagan getting killed in 1931, dead arthur mcfly, tannen crime family, FCB, the brief restored timeline we see after FCB is replaced by old doc but before edna escapes to the past.

So ALL those timelines would have to be erased for doc and marty to vanish as well. We do know the ripple effect can go backwards (in the fcb timeline, the ravine is called Clayton ravine so the 1885 trip has been erased) but especially with the fact that there are 2 sets of ripples back to back (the newer timeline with doc and Judge Brown getting along and then edna burning hill valley), it's not hard to see doc and marty being immune for some time. And as discussed above they eventually travel back before the ripple.

[sn939]

Not true. When talking to Doc in episode 5 with optional dialog options he explains that because the jump was in 1876 the ripple effect was talking longer to affect them and he calculated that they had an hour before they faded out (How he can make calculations like that is beyond me).

Yes, its true that eventually the ripple effect WILL catch up to them and they WILL get erased...but for the time being, they're immune to it by virtue of existing outside the realm of the normal laws of causality. Of course, it seems they lasted for hours in other alternate realities, but will only last for an hour in this one...presumably because the Burnt Hill Valley timeline is a far FAR bigger paradox than ANY of the others!

Thank you. So that could also explain part II: people point out Biff seemingly returning to the same 2015 but it's possible 60 years of rippling hasn't caught up yet (in the case of epsiode 5 its' been 55 years since the ripple but doc and marty come from a point 110 years after the ripple). It's even possible they confused the space time continuum because it would be a case where the timeline would have to ripple forwards and backwards several times. Consider how this burnt hill valley timeline would play out;

-the entire 1885 sequence is pretty much guaranteed not to happen. Clara is likely still born but there'd be no hill valley school to teach at. If somehow doc did end up in the same spot he gets struck by lightning in 1955, he'd end up in an unpopulated hill valley in 1885.
-the Browns do NOT move to hill valley in 1908 since there is no hill valley. Also if you follow the original script and/or novel of part III Emmets mother sarah lathrop was already there in 1885 so it's possible Emmet hasn't been born. According to the video you posted, george is still born somehow (we do know artie is alive in that timeline)
-1955 is heavily different, there's no clock tower to get struck by lightning (unless you theorize it gets built within 24 years but thats heavily unlikely since it's improbable to have a town get populated and warrant that size of a court house so quickly. The clock itself was a gift given in 1885). Even if you buy into the notion that Hill valley could have gained a population within this time, the school wouldn't have been as heavily populated as what we saw in parts I and II. I get that the space time continuum has a way of ensuring similar things happening in different timelines but George having that exact same routine on saturday november 5th 1955 in that timeline is very unlikely. Lous cafe for instance had been the saloon in 1885 (and eventually becomes the cafe 80's by 2015) but would have been burned down.
-consider all the timelines needing to be erased in reverse; twin pine, 2 lone pines (with 2 versions of 2015s robbery), biffhoric, restored Clayton lone pine (this one only exists for around a minute between the burning of the almanac and doc getting struck by lightning), shonash timeline (timeline shown early in part III), eastwood, Carl sagan getting killed in 1931, dead arthur mcfly, tannen crime family, FCB, the brief restored timeline we see after FCB is replaced by old doc but before edna escapes to the past.

So ALL those timelines would have to be erased for doc and marty to vanish as well. We do know the ripple effect can go backwards (in the fcb timeline, the ravine is called Clayton ravine so the 1885 trip has been erased) but especially with the fact that there are 2 sets of ripples back to back (the newer timeline with doc and Judge Brown getting along and then edna burning hill valley), it's not hard to see doc and marty being immune for some time. And as discussed above they eventually travel back before the ripple.

You're quiet right here. Though the answer with regards to Old Biff's return to 2015 is one which Bob Gale provided in the official FAQ. (Then again, in the original BTTF2 script, Biff clearly returns to LP 2015, and Marty and Doc see Hill Valley transforming just as they prepare to leave for 1985...so evidently the ripple effect working slowly WAS the original explanation.

That said, one thing which I've always found was a flaw with the game was the ripple effect working BACKWARDS, which is totally against everything we've seen in BTTF2. In BTTF2, we see Marty from BTTF1 in 1955 even in the history of the Hell Valley timeline (where the Delorean wasn't invented), because Marty arrived in 1955 BEFORE the divergence caused by Old Biff...and the ripple effect doesn't work backwards. So the ravine being named Clayton Ravine actually went against the rules established in the films-in the FCB timeline, the ravine should still have been called Eastwood Ravine, and Doc and Clara from the films would still have lived in the 19th century for a while. When they traveled to the future though, they, and Jules and Verne, would have been erased, since they would have traveled past the point of divergence in 1931. But I guess it would have been confusing to explain why the ravine was still called Eastwood Ravine...and also having it called Clayton DID serve to drive home the point that Clara was dead and Doc's kids never existed in the new timeline (giving Marty an added motivation to set things right for his friend). So its a case of storytelling over logic which I'm quiet okay with.

That said, going by the theory that the ripple effect works BACKWARDS as well in certain cases (and it may well be possible, considering how badly the timeline was screwed up with Edna and Doc getting together in Ep 2), just imagine how messed up thinks would have been in Ep 5 when the timeline was restored. Sure, Marty was seeing Citizen Brown slowly fading out of existence and the newspaper from 1986 'rippling' into one where Doc wins the Key to the City...but Hill Valley would ALSO be transforming all around him. The memories of the older inhabitants of 1931 Hill Valley would be changing, to remember an eccentric blacksmith named Emmett Brown, his wife Clara and their kids, who lived in Hill Valley before the turn of the century (and some may even remember a certain 'Clint Eastwood' who took on Bufford Tannen). Western Union would suddenly have a telegram which has been in their keeping for 45 years, to be delivered 24 years later to one Marty McFly. All signboards identifying the ravine as Clayton Ravine would change to Eastwood Ravine (along with people's memories). A certain photograph of Emmett Brown (and possibly 'Clint Eastwoood') standing by the new Clock Tower in 1885 would find its way into the local library.

It's mind boggling when you think about it!

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

I'm thinking the FCB timeline and burnt hill valleys timelines may have been similar;

in FCB its very clear the existing time travels to 1931 were NOT erased for the simple reason they had to exist for that time line to exist. So you could argue the same thing for the burnt hill valley one; edna's trip to 1876 had to happen and possibly mart traveling to 1931 as well in order for her to steal the time machine.

[sn939]

I'm thinking the FCB timeline and burnt hill valleys timelines may have been similar;

in FCB its very clear the existing time travels to 1931 were NOT erased for the simple reason they had to exist for that time line to exist. So you could argue the same thing for the burnt hill valley one; edna's trip to 1876 had to happen and possibly mart traveling to 1931 as well in order for her to steal the time machine.

Edna's trip to 1876 definetly happened...Marty's trip to 1931 however wouldn't have happened.

From the POV of anyone in the alternate 1931, Marty and Doc simply appeared out of thin air (much like Hill Valley disappeared into thin air from their POV)

[joek86]

There really isn't a paradox here. As that piece of history is changed after their visit to the future. Look at this 2015 much like Hell Valley, it is an alternate timeline that is erased when the event fails to happen. It could be considered a paradox if he had gone back into the past to specifically change the event, but he did this in the PRESENT. That's really the key here.

The thing that always bugged me was wondering what happened to the other Marty at the end of BTTF 1. He couldn't of had the same adventure, because his upbringing would have been different from the Marty we know. (much like the mentioned Marty in Hell Valley) I wonder if the 2nd Marty actually ended up in the 1985 from the beginning of the movie, that would be crazy.

[sn939]

There really isn't a paradox here. As that piece of history is changed after their visit to the future. Look at this 2015 much like Hell Valley, it is an alternate timeline that is erased when the event fails to happen. It could be considered a paradox if he had gone back into the past to specifically change the event, but he did this in the PRESENT. That's really the key here.

The thing that always bugged me was wondering what happened to the other Marty at the end of BTTF 1. He couldn't of had the same adventure, because his upbringing would have been different from the Marty we know. (much like the mentioned Marty in Hell Valley) I wonder if the 2nd Marty actually ended up in the 1985 from the beginning of the movie, that would be crazy.

You're explanation about 2015 is perfectly right! 'The future isn't written' for ANYONE at any point of time...regardless of whether they belong to that time period, or are time travelers from the future (or further back in the past!) If Old Biff can go back to 1955 and thus alter 1985 and 2015 (causing numerous paradoxes which don't seem to have any effect beyond erasing Old Biff when he returns to 2015), then Marty, who belongs to 1985, can damn well change 2015 without fear of the universe blowing up!

Regarding your theory about the 'other' Marty (commonly referred to as Lone Pine Marty) though...that's the same theory advocated by a guy named Bruce Gordon WAY back shortly after the movie was released, but it simply doesn't work within the vague 'rules' of BTTF. According to Bob Gale there are no parallel universes in the BTTF-verse...there is only ONE universe which keeps getting altered, and therefore logically, there should only be ONE Marty who keeps getting altered...