Best and Worst KQ game?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Which are the best and worst KQ games, and why?

[Chyron8472]

The visuals and score (ie. non-singing background music) of KQ5 and KQ6 are both great. However, the puzzle design and animals' voice work in KQ5 are bad to the point of becoming embarrassing at times.

[Lambonius]

For me, KQ5 speaks to the pinnacle of everything that KQ was always about. Free exploration, danger, adventure, a light-hearted but urgent story. And on top of that, the art and music is timeless and beautiful. Just awesome, in my book. I have no problem overlooking its flaws.

[Blackthorne519]

This? Again? Haven't we been asked this question a thousand times?

I'm changing it up. The best and worst was MoE.


Bt

[Anakin Skywalker]

This? Again? Haven't we been asked this question a thousand times?

I'm changing it up. The best and worst was MoE.


Bt

What else is there to really talk about?

[Chyron8472]

My thoughts exactly. Anakin is attempting to foster conversation.

I'm changing it up. The best and worst was MoE.

I don't even consider MoE as part of the core series. That is to say it's not KQ8 to me, just KQ:MoE.

I might acknowledge the existence of the MoE storyline if other games (eg. AGDI's KQ3Redux) refer to it, but I don't consider MoE when comparing KQ games to each other given the disparity in gameplay style.

[exo]

My favorite KQ game is King Graham's Board Game Challenge.

[Blackthorne519]

My thoughts exactly. Anakin is attempting to foster conversation.



I don't even consider MoE as part of the core series. That is to say it's not KQ8 to me, just KQ:MoE.

I might acknowledge the existence of the MoE storyline if other games (eg. AGDI's KQ3Redux) refer to it, but I don't consider MoE when comparing KQ games to each other given the disparity in gameplay style.

I know he's trying to foster conversation, but really - some conversations don't need to be fostered. We've already had this topic, or varients of it, at least 10 times in these forums already, not to mention other forums.

It's beating a dead, dead, dead horse. Best and worst King's Quests? There's only 8 of them, and there hasn't been a new one in over a decade.... there are other things to talk about regarding King's Quest than just ranking them.


Bt

[KatieHal]

Yeah, this topic has been asked and discussed and done several times here already. And no doubt begun by Anakin more than once, too, so...bring up something new!

Best and worst costume design in KQ, GO!

(waits for someone to inevitably say Graham for both)

[Chyron8472]

Best and worst costume design in KQ, GO!

Best: Rosella with princess clothes in KQ4.

Worst: Beast in human form in KQ6

[Sarendor]

Worst: Beast in human form in KQ6

This must have been Telltale's inpiration for DeSinge.

[PimPamPet]

Best: KQ8.
Worst: KQ6.

Or vice versa.

[Murray the Chao]

Worst: Beast in human form in KQ6

I didn't mind his outfit, it was that stupid wig! He looks a LOT better in TSl.

[wilco64256]

I didn't mind his outfit, it was that stupid wig! He looks a LOT better in TSl.

I definitely must agree about the wig, even with all the other weird and random stuff going on in that game that wig just seemed super out of place.

[ATMachine]

I didn't mind the wig too much, mainly because it's pretty standard costume for 17th century French Baroque, the style the KQ6 artists were going for. (It's actually a common setting for Beauty and the Beast illustrations--Disney's initial concept designs for their film were very Baroque in style, but the final movie toned it down quite a bit.)

[BagginsKQ]

I didn't mind his outfit, it was that stupid wig! He looks a LOT better in TSl.


I personally have to disagree on this...

ATM is right.

[GuybrushWilco]

I can say that my personal favorite is King's Quest 6, which is followed closely by King's Quest 5. I didn't like King's Quest 7 as much as the others, but it was still a fun adventure game. I never played Mask of Eternity, although I hear that is actually a decent action adventure.

[MusicallyInspired]

Most don't believe it lives up to the King's Quest name and it does have some minor problems, but it is a decent game on its own.

[BagginsKQ]

I prefer it over KQ7. KQ7 is probably my least favorite.

I can't say I have a specific favorite, on a given day that could be KQ2, KQ5, KQ6 and KQ8. Just depends on the mood and what I feel like playing.

Interestingly Of the last two KQ by Roberta, KQ7 was nearly critically panned by most professional reviewers, KQ8 received largely positive reviews.

Most of the KQ7 critics criticized it has being childish (mixed opinion on the use of cartoony animation and silly elements) and outdated (didn't offer anything new to the genre). Even those who criticized it for oversimplifying the interface.

Whereas in KQ8 receive mostly positive reviews, based on my research I've found they are mixed nearly 50/50 on if KQ8 stayed true, living up to KQ or was something different entirely. It is certainly one of the most controversial KQ (it shares that distinction with KQ7 (and a lesser extent KQ3 according to Roberta)).

[Irishmile]

From best to worst.

6
5
3
4
7
1
2
8

[BagginsKQ]

I have to say 3 is my second least favorite after 7... It just doesn't have a good puzzle system. Most of the puzzles and items needed in the game are 'written' out in the manual. Those spells are then used for most of the rest of the puzzles...

It's got interesting atmosphere and a good story, but over did it with the spells vs. regular style adventure puzzles.

[Lambonius]

I have to say 3 is my second least favorite after 7... It just doesn't have a good puzzle system. Most of the puzzles and items needed in the game are 'written' out in the manual. Those spells are then used for most of the rest of the puzzles...

It's got interesting atmosphere and a good story, but over did it with the spells vs. regular style adventure puzzles.

I agree. I think you pretty much nailed what I dislike about that game. If the spells had been fewer and a little more limited in their uses (not the solution to practically every puzzle) it would have been a lot better. This is one area where I felt AGDI improved it quite a bit with Redux. :)

[exo]

maybe a bit off topic, but I think Loom and KQ3 are very similar in their approach. KQ3 had a specific number of spells and ingredients listed out for them, while Loom had a specific number of magical songs all based on a basic 5 notes that you had to learn throughout the game.

However, even once you had accomplished the necessary tasks to learn a new note (and therefor unlock a new batch of songs), it was not always extremely obvious when to use a particular song. Then the fact that songs could be played backwards to a reverse effect added a whole different aspect to the game.

I bring this up simply because I agree that i was not a huge fan of KQ3 compared to the rest of the series, and I think that the games spell-based style could have been implemented in a stronger way... and Loom demonstrates that for me.

[BagginsKQ]

Part of the power of Loom's spell puzzles, was spells could be 'reversed' by playing the distaff backwards! You had to experiment to figure out how to use those spells...


If ever there was a sequel, I would like to play... Loom 2 would be it :(...

[exo]

Then the fact that songs could be played backwards to a reverse effect added a whole different aspect to the game.

Looks like we were on the same page there.

Loom was originally designed to be the first part of a larger story (or at least Brian Moriarty now claims it was... he didn't always say this). As an example however, there is a scene in one of the seer spheres that shows a volcano exploding, which was supposed to be in the sequel. There were also several drafts in the spellbook that were unused.

[MusicallyInspired]

As I understood it, the sequels weren't going to be about the weavers but other guilds. The second game being called "Forge"?

[Irishmile]

Loom was ok.. I could never really convince myself to adore it like I do Monkey Island and Kings Quest games.

[MusicallyInspired]

It definitely wasn't the best LA game, but it wasn't the worst either. It was quite interesting, just shallow and a little short. Ehh....shallow is the wrong word, but it's not as "full" as the other LA games. I had a great time in its universe, though. Wonderful game.

[ATMachine]

It definitely wasn't the best LA game, but it wasn't the worst either. It was quite interesting, just shallow and a little short. Ehh....shallow is the wrong word, but it's not as "full" as the other LA games. I had a great time in its universe, though. Wonderful game.
I think you're describing a sort of "interaction emptiness" -- a feeling caused by players not being able to examine and manipulate the environment to the degree possible in other LucasArts and (especially) Sierra games.

In other words, there's a low "interaction density." Loom is pretty, but its uncomplex style of gameplay doesn't involve too much investigation of your surroundings.

I do think it might've also helped a bit if the game hadn't been cut down somewhat to save disk space. There was quite a bit of worldbuilding content cut from Crystalgard in particular.

In one room in the Glassmakers' City there were three giant hourglasses symbolically representing the Three Shadows. The first two hourglasses had long ago run out and were sealed up, but the third was still open and had sand continually poured in it by a worker to keep it running. The room layout of the game datafiles suggests that later in the game, after Chaos is unleashed, we'd have gotten to see their shattered remains. A similar aborted idea involved the "Chromax Conundrum" diamond chalice, which apparently was going to be destroyed during Bobbin's first visit.

Not to mention the fact that many of the beautiful backgrounds had their edges trimmed down more or less extensively (sometimes eliminating whole screen-widths of image--there was initially a much larger Shepherds' forest, for instance).

[BagginsKQ]

The VGA/CD version even cut back on the old 16 color version. Removing some of the lines/conversation trees, graphics and IIRC alternative puzzle solutions?

It's butchered...

[MusicallyInspired]

It did remove a LOT of the closeups and cut down on the text. It's not horrible, though. It does have great music and speech. And the VGA is nice too. I wouldn't say butchered.

[ATMachine]

It did remove a LOT of the closeups and cut down on the text. It's not horrible, though. It does have great music and speech. And the VGA is nice too. I wouldn't say butchered.
The FM Towns version is the best of both worlds, of course, being VGA yet preserving the EGA dialogue and character closeups. Pity it's so hard/expensive to come by.

Incidentally, I've seen old promotional videos and screenshots from the 90s which convince me that LucasArts actually did start internally developing a PC VGA upgrade of the original floppy-disk Loom, but for some reason it never got published.

[Lambonius]

I think a Loom sequel would be right up Telltale's alley, especially considering the relative lack of interactivity of Loom's world vs. other Lucasarts games that used the verb icons. Granted, the real question would be whether or not Telltale could make a game that had the cleverly designed puzzles of Loom, with the backward/forward distaff draft mechanics and such.

[BagginsKQ]

I still have of yet not heard the 'introductory' story for Loom... The one came on casette with the earliest releases of the ame... They should toss that in as a bonus with the digital online copies of the game :p...

[exo]

I think you guys hit the nail on the head with the lack of complexity in the background world. What made the game fun was the puzzles themselves, many of which were well thought out. I'd like to think Tell Tale would do a great job with that license, but after playing most TT games to date, I have never seen a puzzle as devious or indepth as some of the ones in Loom. Lucas arts often forced the player to think in "different dimensions". In Day of the Tentacle for example you have three main protagonists, each in a different time period... and sometimes you have to be very creative in order to find ways to get an object from one person to another. While also taking into account the effects that the passage of time will have on said items.

TT's Sam and Max games all seemed to have 1 medium difficulty puzzle per game, and then a lot of basic use-item-here functions. I suppose I'm just tired of 'episodic' gaming and the lack of immersion that comes along with it.

I actually have that Loom cassette, but I have never played it. I remember it catching me off guard when I opened the box to find a cassette tape, hehe. That seemed more dated then 5.25" disks.

[MusicallyInspired]

Telltale thrives on conversation puzzles. Loom didn't have many of those.

[exo]

The problem I have with conversation puzzles, is you can simply click every option until you get through it.

I suppose one could argue that inventory puzzles could be soled by clicking every item on every other item or an object... but at least in that instance you have to find the proper items first.

[BagginsKQ]

Actually for conversation puzzles; if they are done correctly, you have to have learned facts from other locations first, before you can use those facts in a conversation.

Otherwise conversations will go in circles, or end without going anywhere.

In Indiana Jones adventure games for example, not having the right information to solve conversation puzzles could lead to scaring off the person you are trying to get information from. Or perhaps cause them to attack you! Turn into a fist fight.

In Gabriel Knight, you simply couldn't continue until you had learned some facts from somewhere else to initiate a new line of questioning.

Thus conversation 'lines' are similar to 'finding an inventory item'. If you didn't find the subject to question about, or bluff your way through a conversation, you might find yourself in a dead end, or forced into a more violent outcome.

[thom-22]

I have difficulty imagining Loom -- and in particular the loom -- in 3D. Could you model all those parallel strands individually with the color changes and all? Without looking too cartoony?

[MusicallyInspired]

Yep. I mean, Telltale couldn't. But it's possible. But isn't the game cartoony anyway?

[thom-22]

But isn't the game cartoony anyway?

Sure, but not in the same way DOTT, Hit the Road, and Monkey Island are cartoony. At least not in my perception.

[Blackthorne519]

It's cartoony like VolTron was cartoony.


Bt

[BagginsKQ]

Yes, Loom is certainly cartoony... Almost in the same style as Secret of Monkey Island...

[Irishmile]

I think why KQ3 ranked so high on my list is when I first played it as a kid I one instantly identified with Gwydion (Alexander) because he was younger then Graham..

There was also a sense of urgency and sneaking around I liked.. It felt like I was going to get caught at any second..

I know now years later there isn't much to the game but I get nostalgic about it when I play.

So yeah... that is why it rated so high on my list.

[BagginsKQ]

I think its, pretty good for the first time play through... But its one that I feel ages with each additional play (when compared to others in the series)...

It doesn't have much replay value, and the spell system is kinda tedious... As is the 'travel up the mountain' between the sorcerer's trips... I tend to go to take out Manannan first thing, to avoid any of that problem, when I play the game now (at least limits the amount of times I need to head up and down the mountain)...

Waiting for events is another tedious aspect of the game... The whole ship sequence for example takes a long time, to reach the other land... You also have to wait for the random rat conversation (if you want to get the treasure chest and full points) which can take quite a bit of time, and restories (if you are unlucky).

I already mentioned that the puzzles aren't that compelling, since the manual more or less tells you what items you need, and what those items are used for.

But its seriously not one of the games I go back to play over and over that much due to its limitations and flaws.... It's a very slow and tedious game... It didn't age well...

How does Infamous Adventure's Klytos describe games (and there continued appeal)? Floaters, sinkers, and growers?

I'd add the term, 'shrinker'... KQ3, is one that 'shrinks' with repeated play throughs imo...

[AdventureGamer]

I'm surprised Kings' Quest 7 isn't hated as much as it should be. Don't get me wrong, I don't care for 8 either. The best King's Quest games are IV, V, and VI. But I think too many people like 7 more than they should. Let's be honest. Mask of Eternity wasn't the ruination of King's Quest, though it was certainly a terrible King's Quest game, it was Princeless Bride. There are numerous reasons I feel this way.

1. Too cutesy: Don't get me wrong. I love cutesy stuff. King's Quest 1-6 had plenty of cutesy stuff. But none of it was overdone, over the top cutesy. Fairy-tales are dark and dreary, as well as cute. Three had cute elements like the three bears, but it also had very dark elements, child slavery. Two had a Hagatha, a cannibal. Six had cute elements like the Isle of Wonders and the garden, but it also had dark elements like the Isle of the Dead and murder.

2. Lame Villain: Malicia is an awful villain. She's like something from a Saturday morning cartoon. Let's look at five. Five had Mordack, someone you didn't want to mess with, one scary wizard with a vendetta. Six had Abdul Allhazarad, a treacherous advisor who had murdered the king and queen so as to wed the princess and then possibly kill her off. Four had Lolita, another nasty villainess who had Rosella do her evil bidding and terrorized Genesta. Three had Manannan, a wizard who kidnapped children, made them into slaves, and then killed them when they reached eighteen.

3. Rosella the brat: What happened to the Rosella I loved in King's Quest IV, who saved Tamir and her father? She's been made into a valley-girl, a whiny brat! When she talks she gives me a migraine. Her bad Sound-of-Music like song at the beginning doesn't help either. Except, Sound of Music was actually good.

4. Too cartoony: The previous games had somewhat of a cartoon feel, but more in a serious nature. Their graphics made the fairy tale lands feel a bit enchanted and magical. This game is more like a bad rendition of Disney.

There you have it. Mask of Eternity isn't that great, and is one of my least favorites. But I'm a little bewildered at the people who praise Princeless Bride so much. It's really not that great of a game, and, if I may be frank, a disgrace to the previous King's Quest games.

[Irishmile]

I liked 7.. I thought it was a bunch of fun..

[Chyron8472]

I agree. I can see why people have disdain for certain aspects of gameplay, like a single-option cursor, no narrator, lack of walk-speed controls, and an either wonky or nonexistent ability to save on-the-fly... but I still don't think it deserves as much hate as it gets. It's as though KQ7 is one of those games that has become popular to complain about.

[Irishmile]

Yeah... On its own its as good as other adventure games that have been praised.

[MusicallyInspired]

I agree. I can see why people have disdain for certain aspects of gameplay, like a single-option cursor, no narrator, lack of walk-speed controls, and an either wonky or nonexistent ability to save on-the-fly... but I still don't think it deserves as much hate as it gets. It's as though KQ7 is one of those games that has become popular to complain about.

Like MOE?

[Chyron8472]

Like MOE?

MoE though is not an adventure game. It's a 3D-action-platformer. It's a spin-off.

I take issue with acceptance of it as a core title when it's really not. Now, it could have been a core title, if the series had continued further in the same or another style/genre of gameplay, but as it stands MoE is the only title that is not a point & click (or parser) adventure game. Thus, it stands out on its own, with its own style being widely dissimilar from the other games.

[Lambonius]

Frankly, both KQ7 and MOE are both games that I hardly ever touch. I remember enjoying MOE back in the day, and marveling at how pretty it was with its cool Voodoo enhanced dynamic lighting. But it looks like dogshit now, and even worse because there is no way to get it to look as nice as it did on 15+ year old hardware. I honestly doubt I'll ever play it again.

KQ7, on the other hand, I ALWAYS hated. I don't play it because it makes me want to claw my own throat out. It's just so horrible in every way.

[Chyron8472]

I still don't think [KQ7] deserves as much hate as it gets. It's as though KQ7 is one of those games that has become popular to complain about.


Case in point:

KQ7, on the other hand, I ALWAYS hated. I don't play it because it makes me want to claw my own throat out. It's just so horrible in every way.

[Blackthorne519]

I didn't care much for King's Quest VII in 1994, and in almost 18 years, my opinion hasn't changed. It just fell short.

Lambo's just very passionate about what he doesn't like. You should see when he likes something, though. If you're standing near him, you're going to be covered in all kinds of spittle and foam.


Bt

[blueskirt]

Loom wasn't cartoony, it was colorful. But I don't know if Forge would have resisted LucasArts' tendency to cartoonize their character designs.

[MusicallyInspired]

Lamb is an artist and despises the art direction of KQ7 because it's done extremely badly.

[Lambonius]

Haha...thanks for standing up for me, chums. :)

I was also purposefully exaggerating for humor effect. ;)

[techie775]

KQ7 got annoying to me when you clicked on a hotspot and the big clue Valanice would give you is "Hmmm....". Still I always hated KQ2AGI more, the story was boring and sloppy to me. KQ2VGA+ was a big step up.

[BagginsKQ]

MoE though is not an adventure game. It's a 3D-action-platformer. It's a spin-off.

This is 'bull''. Roberta Williams designed it to be King's Quest 8 from the getgo... It was never intended to be a 'spinoff'. She also intended it to evolve out of the limitations of a simple 'Adventure Game"...

You have to remember, KQ7 her previous game had gotten terrible reviews in the industry, many who stated it was 'outdated', and lacked 'innovation'. Some reviewers werent' fond of the art style (although in general that was probably its most 'positive' attribute according to most of the press), and others thought the story overly too 'cute' and/or was dry... Many reviewers went as far to say that Roberta should have just ended when she was ahead (KQ6 and Phantasmagoria as there examples), and not bothered to make KQ7... In anycase it wasn't particularly well received by the industry...

She was living in a period when Adventure game industry was failing, because people wanted more... So she wanted to make a game that combined elements that were successfull at the industry at the time, along with her classic adventure game ideas... KQ8 was that game...

The problem is she started with action (because she had little experience with that) before she got to developing puzzles... Due to techonoglical issues, funding, and internal problems with Sierra's new owners (one guy didn't want Roberta to make the game, thinking her game was 'violent and satanic'...), she never truly got into the level of puzzles that it probably would have had... It never looked as good as she wanted it to look... It didnt' have the number of boss enemies she wanted it to have...

More detailed history here;
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/KQ8_development


Roberta's only other alternative at the time, was probably just let KQ7 be the last game... and let the series die...

Incidently, she was somewhat successful on pleasing the industry, as KQ8 received overly positive reviews... People were already asking when she was going to make KQ9... However, it wasn't good enough for the owners of Sierra themselves...

I always hated KQ2AGI more, the story was boring and sloppy
The story in KQ2 is simple, but compared to other games of its time, it actually was quite innovative... It pushed what games were capable of doing at that time...

Actually compare KQ1AGI to KQ2, and you'll see that KQ1 was by the more the most simple of the early games... KQ2 added more or less linear plot/development (via the door), and introduction movie... KQ1 original didn't really have an intro, and pretty much set the player to randomly explore and solve things... KQ2 is also about twice as large as KQ1 in amount of content, and puzzles.

BTW, I think that KQ2RTS story is crap... It's too gimmicky, changes the story from the original too much... It does many of the same things that The Silver Lining did to the series... Fanfictiony stuff, like 1000 year prophecies, Black Cloak Society tied into everything... The angsty dramatic stuff... But eh I've discussed this in other threads ad nauseum... I won't go much further... I'm serious glad its only fan fiction...
and even worse because there is no way to get it to look as nice as it did on 15+ year old hardware

Use this, and you'll get all the Voodoo effects again;
http://www.zeckensack.de/glide/

BTW, I actually find KQ8 to be one of my favorite games in the series... Although I don't really have a 'single favorite'... That's tough, I pretty much like KQ5, KQ6, KQ8, and KQ2 equally...

KQ4 and KQ1SCI are close too...

KQ1AGI is probably my third least favorite after KQ3 and KQ7 (but that's only because art style isn't near as defined as later games in the series)... But its a 'Graham' game, and it has better puzzles than KQ3... So I give it higher marks...

[Chyron8472]

MoE though is not an adventure game. It's a 3D-action-platformer. It's a spin-off. I take issue with acceptance of it as a core title when it's really not. Now, it could have been a core title

This is 'bull''. Roberta Williams designed it to be King's Quest 8 from the getgo... It was never intended to be a 'spinoff'. She also intended it to evolve out of the limitations of a simple 'Adventure Game"...


Whether she intended it to be a spin-off, it still very much feels like one.it could have been a core title, if the series had continued further in the same or another style/genre of gameplay, but as it stands MoE is the only title that is not a point & click (or parser) adventure game. Thus, it stands out on its own, with its own style being widely dissimilar from the other games.

The first seven games in the series use the same type of fixed-point camera angle, star members of the same family, and in general could be considered prime examples of a graphic adventure game. Combat in these cases is relegated simply to sequences of puzzles of a sort. MoE is the only game to be so removed from the style of the rest of the KQ games. Whether or not it's considered a good game, it's still a very different game.

EDIT: And I'm not about to excuse Roberta for kowtowing to "marketplace realities."

[exo]

A game is not a spin-off just because you deem it to be.

See that big number 8 in the title? Ya, that's because it is the 8th game in a series.

[Blackthorne519]

It was released as King's Quest: Mask of Eternity in the US.
Not King's Quest 8.

Bt

[Lambonius]

A game is not a spin-off just because you deem it to be.

See that big number 8 in the title? Ya, that's because it is the 8th game in a series.

Yeah, as Bt said--Sierra acknowledged how different it was and essentially established it officially as a spin-off by removing the number from the title. It is only numbered in the European release, I believe. And you know what they say about Europeans.

[Chyron8472]

It was released as King's Quest: Mask of Eternity in the US.
Not King's Quest 8.

And Sierra On-Line was a US based company.

[techie775]

Actually compare KQ1AGI to KQ2, and you'll see that KQ1 was by the more the most simple of the early games... KQ2 added more or less linear plot/development (via the door), and introduction movie... KQ1 original didn't really have an intro, and pretty much set the player to randomly explore and solve things... KQ2 is also about twice as large as KQ1 in amount of content, and puzzles.

BTW, I think that KQ2RTS story is crap... It's too gimmicky, changes the story from the original too much... It does many of the same things that The Silver Lining did to the series... Fanfictiony stuff, like 1000 year prophecies, Black Cloak Society tied into everything... The angsty dramatic stuff... But eh I've discussed this in other threads ad nauseum... I won't go much further... I'm serious glad its only fan fiction...



Hey that's fine that's your opinion. I enjoyed KQ2VGA+ , it reminded me of KQ6 but I can see why you'd disagree with the changes. My biggest problem with KQ2 was the manual led you to beleive that Hagatha would play a big role in the game, but all we get is stealing a bird and we're done with her. i remember hearing that the manual design and game development didn't hook up and get their stories straight but it sure left a disappointing feeling for me when I was playing the game.

[BagginsKQ]

Basically the game and the manual was created by two different authors...

Roberta Williams created the game, the manual was written by Annette Childs.

Annette Childs also went on to write the manual story for KQ3 as well.

I've tried to do some research on her, and I'm not sure if she was a Sierra employee or a third party professional writer... She wrote a few manuals for other companies as well, but that could be after she 'left' Sierra.

In anycase back KQ2, this meant that Roberta focused more on Dracula as the game's uber villain...

Whereas Annetted focused on Hagatha...

Oddly enough, Roberta kinda did the same thing when she wrote the second story prologue for KQ1! Where she made the Witch, Wizard, and Dwarf somewhat more important to the game's backstory, but in original game they were not nearly that important...!

A few discrepencies exist between that second version of the prologue story and the KQ1AGI as well! For example, in KQ1AGI, Edward makes a point that the treasures were legendary treasures 'he's heard of'... Whereas Roberta's updated prologue story, made the treasures out to be 'treasures stolen from Edward"!

Yeah, as Bt said--Sierra acknowledged how different it was and essentially established it officially as a spin-off by removing the number from the title. It is only numbered in the European release, I believe. And you know what they say about Europeans.

Actually, the number was removed (although Roberta in articles and interviews still called it King's Quest 8, she and Ken still do!) not because they 'considered' it a spinoff but because they didn't want new players to feel they needed to play previous games in the series to enjoy it. Roberta always called it KQ8 in her personal correspondance, even after the game's release. Early versions of the American release also contained a gold foil emblem that called it the 'eigth game in the King's Quest series' as well.

Keep in mind that around that time quite a few games were droppign their sequel numbers! Previously there was Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness (not called QFG4 on the packaging or in game)!

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081223005708/questforglory/images/f/f6/Qfg4.jpg
There was Police Quest: Open Season (not called PQ4 on the title screen or packaging).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/25/Police_Quest_4_cover.jpg
There was Lost Secret of the Rainforest (didn't even bother to list the fact it was the sequel to EcoQuest).
http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/8/564688_45747_front.jpg
The Beast Within (didn't even number itself, although there was a note it was a 'Gabriel Knight Mystery').
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/Gabriel_Knight_The_Beast_Within.jpg

Leisure Suity Larry 2 isn't called Larry 2...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Leisure_Suit_Larry_2.png
The Dr. Brain games never bothered to number their games at all. The Dagger of Amon Ra, didn't bother to number the game at all (although Roberta referred to it as LB2)!

Btw, Did you know Roberta nearly dropped the number from KQ7 as well (probably for the same reasons, not force new players into thinking they had to buy previous games in the series to enjoy them)!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110802171235/kingsquest/images/8/88/ConcepttitleposterKQ7.png

A game is not a spin-off just because you deem it to be.

This is true... Besides if Roberta had truly wanted to distance it from KQ as a 'spinoff' (which as we know she didn't), she could have dropped the "King's Quest" (from the title altogether).

BTW, the King's Quest wasn't the only series of that era, that change directions to survive the decline of adventure game genre... Adding new features, or moving in a different direction for series! To the chagrin of some of the old fans...

Look at Broken Sword 3 which consists primarily of box puzzles, stealth gameplay, and timed action sequences! With next to no regular adventure inventory puzzles!

Quest for Glory V, dropped the adventure aspects, and went straight action-RPG! It was no longer advertised as an 'Adventure" or "Adventure-RPG".

The Dr. Brain series went from Puzzle-Adventures and went pure 'puzzle'.

Gabriel Knight 3, went 3D, and added alot of time specific puzzles (easily miss half the game, if you aren't in the right place at the right time)...

Police Quest series turned into RTS (PQ:SWAT2), and finally FPS (but ultimately started dropping "Police Quest" from the title)!

Quite a few classicaly 2-D games went into the realm of 3-D with often mixed results...

Ultima XI almost completely changed directions in style from previous games, when it went 3D. Becoming more of a platformer RPG...

Mario 64 is very different than 2D marios...

3D Castlevanias are very different than their 2D counterparts...

You could go on and on... The rise of 3D had a huge influence on the direction of games...

[MusicallyInspired]

Hey that's fine that's your opinion. I enjoyed KQ2VGA+ , it reminded me of KQ6 but I can see why you'd disagree with the changes. My biggest problem with KQ2 was the manual led you to beleive that Hagatha would play a big role in the game, but all we get is stealing a bird and we're done with her. i remember hearing that the manual design and game development didn't hook up and get their stories straight but it sure left a disappointing feeling for me when I was playing the game.

You also have a final showdown with Hagatha at the end of the game in KQ2+. She was a huge part of the story, though, and had a lot of presence in the game, even if most of it was in cutscenes. Still counts in my opinion. How much did you actually interact with Alhazred in KQ6? Or Mordack in KQ5?

[BagginsKQ]

Are you replying to the wrong topic? Favorite villains?

I wasn't talking about KQ2+, and I don't count KQ2+....

I was speaking about KQ2:Romancing the Throne (aka KQ2 by Roberta Williams)

[MusicallyInspired]

I was talking to techi775.

[BagginsKQ]

Techie was also referring to KQ2AGI in the later half of her paragraph.

[MusicallyInspired]

Ah, I misread it.

[techie775]

yes I was talking about KQ2AGI.

[Blackthorne519]

See, all of this will be settled if Tell Tale releases a numbered next game, hmmmm??

Is it 8 or 9??? THIS IS A BIG DEAL.


Bt

[BagginsKQ]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120210191438/kingsquest/images/thumb/3/3a/KingsQuest8_courage_1920x1200.jpg/640px-KingsQuest8_courage_1920x1200.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120210191438/kingsquest/images/thumb/6/67/KingsQuest8_countdown_1920x1200.jpg/640px-KingsQuest8_countdown_1920x1200.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120210193023/kingsquest/images/thumb/4/45/KingsQuest8_beginning_1920x1200.jpg/640px-KingsQuest8_beginning_1920x1200.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120210191439/kingsquest/images/thumb/c/c7/KingsQuest8_mirror_1920x1200.jpg/640px-KingsQuest8_mirror_1920x1200.jpg

The official collection "King's Quest 7+8", includes "King's Quest VIII", developed by Sierra, published by Activision, released through GOG.com services;
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/8/88/KQ7%2B8.jpg

[Blackthorne519]

Good point, Baggins.

Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm pretty sure GoG designed those backgrounds, though, as they do for all the extras for the games they have available.

[BagginsKQ]

The backgrounds are actually pretty old... They go back to old magazine advertisements and the KQ8 Theme Pack (IIRC)...

GoG apparently formatted them into higher res backgrounds though.

Activision must have given them the masters though...

Also GOG has said in the past when questioned, why they didn't release all the SQ or KQ games in one collection, that the publishers themselves decide on the collections (GOG just releases them). That is also one of the reasons why they haven't been able to get permission to include some of the 'expansion' material to some games, such as Privateer. They had to get special permission from the creators of Broken Sword to continue including the originals versions of BS1 and 2 as bonuses, when they added the special editions.

Some series aren't even sold in collections, and sold individually.

Apparently the publishers also have impact on the decision for pricing as well... Which is why some games cost $10 or more...

So basically the companies decide on the collections (or even to release the games individually), and the pricing... I guess it allows the companies to make a little extra on the royalties...

Here is Ken Williams own website;
http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/m/577672

Although I think some of Ken's personal reliability is thrown out the window, when he calls The Silver Lining, King's Quest IX, and lists it as the next game in the series (though to give benefit of the doubt, its possible that someone else maintains his website, he just has put his name on it, but hasn't actually looked at all the content). Though within the forums, he does short hand to KQ8, or use King's Quest 8 quite a bit. What little I've looked through the archives.

Mark Seibert, the co-producer of KQ8 also calls the game King's Quest VIII;
http://www.markseibert.com/music.htm

Now if you go back to the primary sources (as credible historians do), the original material made during development and little after, from around circa (1995-1999), such as Roberta Williams interviews, as well as Interaction magazine, the various King's Quest Collections, some of the Sierra catalogs, you also find that Roberta Williams consistently called it King's Quest VII or King's Quest 8. The box itself and manual inside that box, also pointed out that it was the eigth game in the series. The manual even included one of those 'what came before' type sections, covering the history up to the events up to the 'current' game. Even the official Hintbook, called it King's Quest 8 as well...

It's kind of like Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness, or Police Quest: Open Season, all of the promotional stuff called them QFG4 and PQ4 respectively, but the actual title screens/boxes left off that title! But you could certainly find references pointing out that they were the 4th game in each of their series!

Even PQ promotional material for PQ:Swat and PQ:Swat 2 called those games PQ5 and PQ6 in all promotional material as well.

It wasn't until SWAT3 that they dropped PQ out of all the promotional material. Although they were retroactively put back into the Police Quest series in certain Sierra collections. Such as the Police Quest: SWAT Generation collection (came with SWAT, SWAT2, and SWAT3).

Also, here is another weird example from Activision! Modern Warfare 2, is called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 on the box! But the title screens and ingame, make no reference to Call of Duty (at least it was that way on initial release)... Instead, the title screen just says Modern Warfare 2.

Marketing and promotion are often complicated...

[MusicallyInspired]

It's actually called the SWAT Career Pack and it comes with the 4 Most Wanted, SWAT 1, SWAT 2, and a demos of SWAT 3 and GK3. Still have the box.

There was that whole ordeal with the executives at Infinity Ward getting axed by ActiVision for no good reason and they fought back with what was in their contracts. Something about any Call of Duty game that was made in modern times? Or maybe only specifically before modern times...I can't remember. Could be part of the reason. At any rate, Modern Warfare has almost become its own franchise now and doesn't need the COD label.

[BagginsKQ]

It's actually called the SWAT Career Pack and it comes with the 4 Most Wanted, SWAT 1, SWAT 2, and a demos of SWAT 3 and GK3. Still have the box.


Nah, I'm speaking of a completely different collection, "Police Quest: SWAT Generation". IT was a 2003 release or so...

Modern Warfare has almost become its own franchise now and doesn't need the COD label.

I kinda agree, except that uses one or two characters who are related to characters from the previous series to link them together.

With the third game, they went back to huge ol "Call of Duty", and called it "Call of Duty: MW3" on the box and title screen (abbreviating the Modern Warfare subtitle).

[MusicallyInspired]

Oh really? Interesting. Does it contain the 4 Most Wanted as well?

[BagginsKQ]

Nah, it's purely Swat 1-3. I can't remember if it had a preview for SWAT 4 or not.

[exo]

After reading what has transpired since my last post it seems quite clear to me that the master of KQ lore (BagginsKQ) has laid the smackdown on you guys as far as the numbering system in KQ goes.

I remember those magazine adverts with KQVIII explicitly labeled on them. And I remember Roberta always referring to it as that.

Either way, attempting to argue that KQ8 was not part of the main series is fairly daft. Roberta wrote it, directed it, released it, and considers it the 8th game in the series. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but you also can't go and attempt to relegate it to 'spin-off' status just because it changed engines and approach.

Escape from Monkey Island is the 4th game in its series (whether it says 4 or not in the title). It wasn't developed by the original authors, it introduced very awkward 3d tank-style controls, it had a whole section called 'monkey-combat' that was heavily criticized, and is generally considered the worst of the series - and yet no one is running around calling it a bloody spin-off.

[Lambonius]

I consider King's Quest VI to be a spin-off because it has annoyingly verbose characters, sappy melodramatic plot, and too much exposition.

[MusicallyInspired]

I think the fact of whether it's canonically the 8th chapter or not in the series should be decided by if the number is in the game itself in runtime. I don't think it is, however, I'll still call it 8.

[BagginsKQ]

I think the fact of whether it's canonically the 8th chapter or not in the series should be decided by if the number is in the game itself in runtime. I don't think it is, however, I'll still call it 8.


If you went by kind of 'logic' (can it even be called 'logic'?), then Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness is not part of the QFG. Police Quest: Open Season, Police Quest: SWAT, and Police Quest: SWAT 2, would not be 'Police Quest' games. Leisure Suit Larry Looking for Love in Several Wrong Places wouldn't be a Larry game, because it doesn't have a number, etc...

None of the Dr. Brain games would be part of the same series, as they are not numbered...

Personally I'd say the 'series name' such as "Quest for Glory", or "King's Quest", or "Police Quest'', or "Dr. Brain" is a dead giveaway to which games are part of their respective series.

But wait, that doesn't even work! Uh, The Beast Within, is the 'The Beast Within"! The only thing pointing out that its a 'a Gabriel Knight game is a note on the box! Lost Secrets of the Rainforest, doesn't have anything pointing out that its an EcoQuest game, but its clearly a sequel to the previous game... The Dagger of Amon Ra, is the The Dagger of Amon Ra, and the fact that it is the sequel, is only mentioned on the box... But its not called Laura Bow 2 anywhere on the box Etc, Etc...

Uh, what about the Conquests series, where each game is clearly different, covering separate stories (Arthur, and Robin Hood)? Or, the Mixed-Up series, that's similarly covers two different themes (Mother Goose, and Fairy Tales)? Both fo these examples have the series names, but neither 'stories' have anything to do with each other... But they each make up a 'series'...

At least KQ8, sticks to the idea of 'saving Daventry', and saving other lands from Daventry... It has King Graham, and even a nod to Valanice (even an obscure reference to the rest of the family if you know where to look)... It clearly occurs in the same universe as King's Quest... Yes, it covers an area of Daventry never shown in previous games, but several of the previous games mention the town of Daventry, but it was never shown until KQ8! Also Connor starts out wearing a clothes that look just like King's Graham's outfit (sans Adventurer's Cap), or Alexander's in KQ5. His story that of being a lowly knight peasant saving the kingdom, mirrors somewhat the story that started King's Quest, the Quest for the Crown!, when Graham was not but a lowly knight! If you are honest with yourself, there are alot more themes in the game, that are taken from the King's Quest developmental structure! "Exploration", "inspiration from Mythology/fairy tales", etc...

The ideas of encountered enemies (that serve very little puzzle purposes, other than to get in your way), goes back to the wolves, wizards, ogre, dwarves, flying witches of the original game, or wolf, hagatha, dwarf, and enchanter of second, etc (few seem to know this, but in KQ1 and KQ2, the game doesn't penalize you for trying to 'kill' those enemies, but it points out that "Graham" is too weak, or unskilled to fight them. He would if he could though... he kills the witch through trickery)... Roberta just chose to add new features, that she couldn't do in previous games... I'm pretty sure if she could have made KQ1 in 3D that those random encounters would have to include combat, simply to be able to eliminate them as a threat, or they'd follow you around everywhere (more than likely they would no longer be random)! She actually said something similar during one of her interviews/posts during the development of KQ8...

If you want a truly crazy example, then what about the Final Fantasy series, where each game, has very little to do with the previous in story or themes, and its one of the most misnamed oxymoronic named series ever, as each 'fantasy' or in some cases, 'scifi' is not the final one in the series (in some cases you have those sequels to the 'sequels', X-2, etc)! In recent games, the combat style turned into a more MMO style action-rpg style, from the original turn-based interface...

[Blackthorne519]

I really only think it matters if another numbered King's Quest game is ever released. If not, then it's really just a moot point.


Bt

[exo]

I think the fact of whether it's canonically the 8th chapter or not in the series should be decided by if the number is in the game itself in runtime. I don't think it is, however, I'll still call it 8.

I say the author gets to decide on what is canonical and what is not. No one here on this board has any right to make such judgement. The inmates are taking over the asylum when they decide that they know so much better than the original author that they decide to start renumbering and re-canonizing the stories.

However, if we are at a consensus that we can decide what does and doesn't count these days, then I will be the first to say that the last season of Lost was a "spin-off" and completely unrelated to the series at large. I hope Telltale gets the Lost license one day just so i can rage on the forums for days and days about that season finale.

[Irishmile]

I recognize the eighth game as part of the Kings Quest world.. but I also do think of it more of a spinoff.. and not only because it was a different style of game... but also because you didn't play as anyone in the royal family.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I don't really want to get into the "is it 8 or not" bull crap, so I'm gonna change the flow a little bit.

I don't really understand the hatred for King's Quest VII, because at the time it was one of my favourite games. Keep in mind I first played it around 1998 as part of the King's Quest Collection because I didn't get my own computer (previously played V on the NES and VI at a friend's house) until 1996, when the games were a little harder to find.

I personally find KQ3 to be one of the least enjoyable games for me primarily cause I also found it to be one of the hardest. I don't care much for having to make quick decisions, follow time-based puzzles, and the threat of death constantly looming over me. It was one of the reasons I enjoyed many of LucasArts games (the lack of death penalties), although it certainly pushed me into the "have to save constantly" phase of gaming in the 90's that I'd started going towards with later SNES and early PSX RPGs.

Don't make that out as me thinking it was poorly made, cause I liked the concept and the idea of playing a boy using improvised magic to defeat his wizard master. I just wasn't terribly keen on the execution of some of the puzzles.


Getting back to KQ7 for a moment. I really liked that we were getting to play not only as Rosella for a second time, but also finally being able to play as her mother; which meant we'd finally played as everyone in the family. I loved the art style, the voice acting, the music, and the characters. I suppose I could... no, really, I can't see the issue with the artwork in KQ7. I do sketches from time to time, and if I could be even half as good as the stuff in this game, I'd be happy as hell. The irony, I suppose, is that I find the art direction of cartoons like Home Movies to be abysmal, but that's cause I think the shaky-line animation is amateurish.

My other favourite game? King's Quest VI, probably cause it was my first true taste of the series and would be what got me into adventure (or point & click) game in general. I must have played that game for weeks before I finally beat it the first time. Actually, I take that back, because it was at a friend's house it was most likely months since I didn't have the chance to play it often. If I hadn't played it, I'd have never gotten interested in the genre, which led me to Myst, which led me to LucasArts, Cyan/RedOrb Entertainment & Sierra when I got my computer.


On second thought, I think I will tempt fate by commenting on KQ8. I've always thought of it as KQ8, but never felt that it fit into the series. As Irishmile says, not only does it depart from the gameplay style but it also has little to do with the royal family. When I first heard about it via the teaser trailers and interviews and such from other games, I didn't even realize you'd be playing as someone else. I kind of thought you might be playing Graham's grandson (cause I thought there was a bit where you saw an old King Graham talking to the player). Mind you, this was over 10 years ago and my memories are fuzzy.

I recall being excited, but nervous. It wasn't going to be like the other games, and I'd never played a game of that style on a PC. I remember eventually getting it years later, discovering it had a fatal bug which could render the game unplayable in the second area (which I naturally found). I couldn't even run it on my computer, I had to use my cousin's slightly better computer (mainly cause mine was dying). I was so disappointed with what I eventually played.

Looking back, I know what they were trying to accomplish because I played a game that very much felt like the embodiment of the concept and style: Legacy of Kain - Soul Reaver. Probably the second one, if I wanna be more precise. It had that mix of combat, puzzles, and exploration, as well as feeling similar to the sense of adventure they were trying to go for with MoE.

I can't say I hated the game, cause I never even got to finish it, but as Irish said, I accept it as part of the series, but it still feels like a spin-off. I tried to enjoy what I could, which wasn't much.. but it's like asking me what I thought of the Star Wars Droids/Ewoks cartoons in regards to the Clone Wars CGI cartoon. Sure, they're both set in the Star Wars universe, but they're so different it's like apples and oranges.

[BagginsKQ]

http://www.adventure-treff.de/artikel/interviews/ken_williams_e.php

Very good read from 2003... if you want a better idea, why both Roberta and Ken believed the direction KQ8 took, was best for the Adventure game genre, and that it needed to evolve... He felt the future for it to succeed would be something with neither 'puzzles', but neither fully action either... With more direct control of the world and the 'story' itself. He didn't even like the use of the term 'adventure games' (thought the term was misleading to what they really wanted entertainment to be)...

Sierra's motto, was "Entertainment, not games". They were wanting to move more towards interactive stories (apparently more like Telltale in some ways) (hopefully ultimately replace the film industry).

It also includes his plans that had Sierra continued under him, he would have probably eliminated the traditional adventure games altogether...

Here are many of the highlights;

Ken: "The adventure game needs to be re-invented to succeed. Doing more of the same with a new plot wouldn't cut it, beyond selling a few Sierra fans. My #1 skill at Sierra was in pushing people to innovate. There is too much copycatting in the industry today. No one has the courage to do something completely different. I don't think Sierra (or, anyone) will do an adventure game anytime soon. If they do something like what Sierra did, it will be at best a mediocre success. My guess is that companies no this, but no one wants to go out on a limb with something completely different."

"Imagine Super Mario quality animation, and the ability to interact with the world, but with realistic characters, and mature plots. But, a story game - not a action game, and not a puzzle game. Focus on characters and plot. That said, I would launch two different projects to reinvent the market, and my second idea might be the bigger one.

I like the idea of where infocom was going. There were the inklings of an idea in their text games - which was to focus on artificial intelligence. If the same effort were coupled with todays computers - perhaps a game could be built that is a VERY accurate simulation. I like the idea of an environment with unpredictable characters. The problem with multi-player is that most people don't like multi-player environments. I think that through having truly smart NPCs, something that could be done that gives the best of both worlds; single and multi-player games. If I personally did a game, this is the area I would focus on. The problem is that games become puzzle games at some point. It's the player versus the traps left by the designer. I have a lot of ideas on how to build credible intelligent characters."

"I always thought the future of storytelling was on the computer. I predicted that computer games would be bigger than films, and still believe there is huge potential with story-telling games - if done correctly. Watching a story from the inside is more exciting than from the outside. Phantasmagoria was a first step towards where I thought the future was. It's disappointing that we blew it with Phantasmagoria II and shot the category."

"By the way: I always hated the word "adventure game". Phantasmagoria was a horror game. It worked when it scared you, and didn't when it felt like a "puzzle" or "adventure" game. Larry worked when you laughed. It was a "comedy" game. It didn't work when it felt like an "adventure" game. Decide the emotion you are going for; tears, laughter, fear, etc - and go for it. Do what makes the emotion, and blow off the rest. In some cases my own designers forgot the rule, and those were the weak parts of the games."

By the time Sierra was sold, it was mostly a non-game company. In about 1990 I made the decision to focus away from games. This came about as a result of a discussion with Bill Gates himself. It's a bit of a long story, but we had been talking about Sierra and Microsoft doing a project together when I got bold enough to ask Bill if he would ever consider buying Sierra (I had always had tremendous respect for Microsoft, and would have teamed up with them in a minute). His answer changed Sierra's future. People at Sierra remember this meeting well, because I came back and changed the company dramatically. Bill said that he had just noted the bankruptcy of United Artists. His contention was that they were in a hit driven business, and that ultimately in a hit driven business you run into a time of no hits. Sierra lived and died with the best seller charts. Fortunately, the charts were very good to us, but Bill's contention was they had also been good to United Artists. Ultimately, you run out of hits and die.

It might take a hundred years, as was the case with United Artists, but it always happens. My goal with Sierra was to create a company that would live forever. I didn't want to be a "hit machine". I set a new goal for Sierra to exit the hit business, and reorganized the company around a new vision to be 1/3rd education, 1/3rd productivity and 1/3rd perennial products. The first two categories should be obvious, but the last needs some explaining. My goal was to find products that could be "rev'ed" each year, such as Microsoft's Flight Simulator, or Electronic Arts Madden Football. I wanted to find an array of products that could be done better each year. Flight (and other) Simulators fit this category, as did construction sets. Products like Caesar fit this definition. The Incredible Machine. By the time the company was sold, I had about 80-90% of revenue that matched my vision. It's not clear that I would have continued in adventure games at all. My guess is that this vision won't make me popular with adventure gamers, but it was working. My focus was on building a company that would live forever. The new owners had different ideas and scrapped many products I considered key to this vision. I wish they had at least asked where I was trying to steer the company."

Chris brought something similar up in Interaction magazine back in 1997 that his father told him (while Ken Williams was still at Sierra). He left the company ultimately around November 1997;

"The traditional adventure game is dead."...it's time to change adventure games at least as much as the gamers themselves have changed over the last few years. It's time to make them "less pretentious. More open-ended, faster paced, and just more fun to play than they have been." After all..., "what's the use of creating these super-serious, overly literary, and downright studious games when the major audience that will play them played a Nintendo or a Sega last year? These folks are used to playing games where the correct answer to any problem might be jumping over something, hitting it with a hammer, or maybe even shooting it with a big bazooka. Why hassle through all the literary pretense when most of today's gamers just want to blow something up."

[exo]

people get mad when the industry at large declares adventure games to be dead, yet here is sierra themselves predating everyone with that statement.

It seems incredibly short sighted to severe ties so completely with what established the company in the first place. I completely agree that diversifying (at the time) was the way to go, but that does not mean you have to abandon the adventure game genre completely (or attempt to redefine it).

The adventure game company cranks out games that fall anywhere between good and mediocre shit on a constant basis, and they seem to be doing just fine for the past 10 years.

Seems to me that the people at sierra were horrible at predicting where the industry was going. At one point they threw so many eggs into the FMV basket, that they were doomed to loose out when the very brief fmv fad crumbled.

I'm sure some of you remember the CD-I - a 'console' that focused on FMV games and productivity software. it totally bombed, and interestingly, it sounds like they had the same MO as Ken there did. So even if they hadn't sold, he was sinking the damned company.

Cendent put a nail in the coffin with their make believe accounting practices.

Long story short - you failed Ken. the company did not last forever, and even if it had followed your business plan - it was doomed to fail the the rest of the fmv\productivity software industry.

[Anakin Skywalker]

people get mad when the industry at large declares adventure games to be dead, yet here is sierra themselves predating everyone with that statement.

It seems incredibly short sighted to severe ties so completely with what established the company in the first place. I completely agree that diversifying (at the time) was the way to go, but that does not mean you have to abandon the adventure game genre completely (or attempt to redefine it).

The adventure game company cranks out games that fall anywhere between good and mediocre shit on a constant basis, and they seem to be doing just fine for the past 10 years.

Seems to me that the people at sierra were horrible at predicting where the industry was going. At one point they threw so many eggs into the FMV basket, that they were doomed to loose out when the very brief fmv fad crumbled.

I'm sure some of you remember the CD-I - a 'console' that focused on FMV games and productivity software. it totally bombed, and interestingly, it sounds like they had the same MO as Ken there did. So even if they hadn't sold, he was sinking the damned company.

Cendent put a nail in the coffin with their make believe accounting practices.

Long story short - you failed Ken. the company did not last forever, and even if it had followed your business plan - it was doomed to fail the the rest of the fmv\productivity software industry.

Actually, it was not short sighted, since adventure games are a niche genre now. In the 80s to early 1990s, they were a leading genre. By 1996, the genre was losing steam pretty rapidly. It was being outpaced by action games, shooters and RPGs like Diablo. It was passe. And for a company like Sierra, to make a "Sierra quality" adventure game (is in, a quality level on par with the industry if they had continued as time moved on. You don't tend to see a lot of adventure games with A+ graphics or the like nowadays, whereas in the early 90s, adventure games were the forefront on the technical side of things), it would've cost more to make than they would've earned back. Which is counterproductive for a company, especially one which is responsible to shareholders. Part of the reason action and other genres took over was because they were cheaper to make.

Actually, they had a lot good predictions, for example, Ken wanting to do online gaming as early as 1990; Ken's plan to move Sierra into console gaming if he had stayed on; The fact that Sierra could program games for DVD as early as 1996 amongst many other things.

Actually, the company wasn't sinking when he sold it. It was the market share leader in PC games and was one of the largest computer game companies, with over 1,000 employees and around 1,500 or more when he left. Sierra's main competitors in that period were considered to be Microsoft and EA. That should tell you something about what a powerhouse they were.

Also, you're missing one key component here. He also wanted to move into the action, RPG and simulator genres, as well as have franchises that could be revamped every year, like the Madden or Nascar series. Sierra's series, Front Page Sports, was at the time (96-97) the leading sports series. Consider that his last major decision was to agree to have Sierra distribute Half Life--which turned out to be a huge hit and critically acclaimed. His original deal with Valve stipulated that Sierra, and not Valve, would exclusively own the rights to Half Life--meaning they could've used that series forever. One of Sierra's later leaders sold back the rights to Valve.

As far as FMV games, Ken was done with those games by 1996. After Phantasmagoria II came out, he declared that Sierra was not going to make any further FMV games. '96 is right about when the trend ended.

What killed Sierra was the Cendant scandal (that pretty much crushed Sierra's profitability, which resulted in Sierra's CEOs having to make cutback after cutback and tons of layoffs to save money) and it's ripple effects, and a series of inefficient CEOs who had no idea how to truly run Sierra.

[BagginsKQ]

Ken and Roberta were right about one thing... I don't think there has been anything innovative to come along in adventure game genre since Sierra died...

Sure the 'episodic' format was 'innovative' to a degree... But even now its old and tired...

The closest to what Ken wanted (fully interactive world/environment/adventure game/action/less puzzle game), was probably Shenmue series, but even that series was never completed... It was highly praised as one of the best adventures ever (personally never got a chance to play it, but the reviews were so promising)...

The changing AI thing, open-ended changing story sorta happened in Blade Runner game (where no two games were alike), but that was one of the last Adventure games before the industry died...

Yes, there have been some 'good' (but not necessarily excellent) adventure games, nothing innovative, but excellent story, and world. Not necessarily great puzzle design though (in some cases rehashed/recycled puzzles from the pit of adventure gaming in general). But most of these made little money, or were failures in the market (lacking mainstream appeal, that could see a second coming of Adventure gaming of sorts)...

All that we have left is a very small niche market (adventures still do not have the mainstream appeal), which includes an even smaller 'fan game' following inside of it, and most of these are in a purpetual timewarp stuck back in 1992... For all intents and purposes Adventure game genre is 'undead', or on a 'respirator'....

Do you realize the most mainstream of adventure games in the last 10 years, are probably the Nancy Drew games? They are so formulic, mass-produced, full of stupid mini-arcade games... They are really story or genre I have little interest in...

Then there is the casual adventures (aka Puzzle-Adventures), which many argue are nothing like traditional adventures, many are 'hidden picture' hunts (though they are slowly evolving closer to classic adventures)... They are actually pretty mainstream, and in a sense may be the main chance for an adventure game comeback... Rumor has it that former Access employees are working on a new Tex Adventure game (it may or may not include voices/FMV), but will be designed for the casual adventure market...

As far as FMV games, Ken was done with those games by 1996. After Phantasmagoria II came out, he declared that Sierra was not going to make any further FMV games. '96 is right about when the trend ended.

While true, its interesting to see back in 2003, he felt had Phantas II not been a failure or an abyssmal game in its own right, it seems he had ideas that would have innovated the FMV genre even further...

I remember reading in one interview, Roberta was hoping to do something that would merge 3D with the FMV genre, like essentially map/project FMV onto 3D characters that could be viewed from all sides, but look like the real person! Their facial expressions would be there actual facial expressions as they were filmed. With game world also created by projecting/mapping actual photographed/filmed scenery onto 3D objects. Really ahead of its time, definitely not entirely feasible back in late 1990s... Holodeck comes to mind (but inside your monitor)! But games are finally getting to a point where the 3D objects are smooth enough, round enough and realistic enough, that some kind of 'mapped/projected' FMV could be feasible... We are almost to a point where the realism might actually get get past the uncanny valley, by actually being able to portray 'real3D, and 'real people', as well as fully computer generated people...

[Anakin Skywalker]

Ken and Roberta were right about one thing... I don't think there has been anything innovative to come along in adventure game genre since Sierra died...

Sure the 'episodic' format was 'innovative' to a degree... But even now its old and tired...

The closest to what Ken wanted (fully interactive world/environment/adventure game/action/less puzzle game), was probably Shenmue series, but even that series was never completed... It was highly praised as one of the best adventures ever (personally never got a chance to play it, but the reviews were so promising)...

The changing AI thing, open-ended changing story sorta happened in Blade Runner game (where no two games were alike), but that was one of the last Adventure games before the industry died...

Yes, there have been some 'good' (but not necessarily excellent) adventure games, nothing innovative, but excellent story, and world. Not necessarily great puzzle design though (in some cases rehashed/recycled puzzles from the pit of adventure gaming in general). But most of these made little money, or were failures in the market (lacking mainstream appeal, that could see a second coming of Adventure gaming of sorts)...

All that we have left is a very small niche market (adventures still do not have the mainstream appeal), which includes an even smaller 'fan game' following inside of it, and most of these are in a purpetual timewarp stuck back in 1992... For all intents and purposes Adventure game genre is 'undead', or on a 'respirator'....

Do you realize the most mainstream of adventure games in the last 10 years, are probably the Nancy Drew games? They are so formulic, mass-produced, full of stupid mini-arcade games... They are really story or genre I have little interest in...

Then there is the casual adventures (aka Puzzle-Adventures), which many argue are nothing like traditional adventures, many are 'hidden picture' hunts (though they are slowly evolving closer to classic adventures)... They are actually pretty mainstream, and in a sense may be the main chance for an adventure game comeback... Rumor has it that former Access employees are working on a new Tex Adventure game (it may or may not include voices/FMV), but will be designed for the casual adventure market...


While true, its interesting to see back in 2003, he felt had Phantas II not been a failure or an abyssmal game in its own right, it seems he had ideas that would have innovated the FMV genre even further...

I remember reading in one interview, Roberta was hoping to do something that would merge 3D with the FMV genre, like essentially map/project FMV onto 3D characters that could be viewed from all sides, but look like the real person! Their facial expressions would be there actual facial expressions as they were filmed. With game world also created by projecting/mapping actual photographed/filmed scenery onto 3D objects. Really ahead of its time, definitely not entirely feasible back in late 1990s... Holodeck comes to mind (but inside your monitor)! But games are finally getting to a point where the 3D objects are smooth enough, round enough and realistic enough, that some kind of 'mapped/projected' FMV could be feasible... We are almost to a point where the realism might actually get get past the uncanny valley, by actually being able to portray 'real3D, and 'real people', as well as fully computer generated people...

If Sierra run by Ken and Roberta Williams had stayed alive, I firmly believe they could've made video games a truly respected artform, something great and dignified like films are. They were pioneering and heading in that direction as it was.

[Anakin Skywalker]

The problem with FMV isn't the format, it's that in the 1990s, the technology to make a credible FMV game just wasn't there yet. Sierra was probably the best at it. But I do think FMV deserves a come back, with today's technology.

[BagginsKQ]

I'd argue Wing Commander were some of the best FMV games... Better than Sierra even... Better cast of actors... But the movies were used to tell the story through cutscenes, and had little impact on the actual gameplay itself, other than a few communications popups to give you orders or from wingman.

Some say Access with its Tex Murphy games was superior to Sierra as well when it came to FMV. Although much of the acting was intentionally corny for humor and affect. They wanted a kind of b-movie feel. But they went with big name actors. Plus they had found a way to incorporate filmed characters into the real-time 3D engine used in the games. Kind like 2D cutouts though, but still realistic enough. Note: Access is noteable for its dead-end technology though innovative at the time, use of internal speaker to create voice overs, and even high quality music... they called it RealSound. Even had instructions for using an allegator clip to connect a the internal speaker up to a HIFI speaker system...

Also Tex Murphy: Overseer (1998) the last game was relatively successful, they were going to make another sequel (Overseer ended in a cliffhanger), but Microsoft bought their company with plan to close it down. They closed it at the moment they bought it. They apparently saw it as a competitive threat to the market they invisioned.

[exo]

FMV games were dead before 96. So Ken was a little late realizing this. 93 was the year of the full on FMV push, with the 3DO, Sega CD, and CD-I all competing. Digital Pictures led the crap parade.

And what is this about better tech making better FMV games? An FMV game is an FMV game no matter how good the cameras or compression are. You might as well play Jurassic Park if you like FMV games. The reason they failed (even with great stories, acting, voice work) is because they are extremely limited by their nature.

Simply animating filmed sprites and using FMV in cut scenes does not make a game a true FMV game. But even that style of FMV is incredibly dated. "Filmed games" went right out with the 90's. First, game publishers got tired of putting out games that were upwards of 8 cd's long. Second, CG allows much smoother and more stylized presentation.

I worked as in software retail from 94-98, and I can tell you first hand that Sierra was becoming king of the shovelware. Whenever the sierra rep came around she had a trunk of shitty games and productivity software she couldn't get rid of. Meanwhile companies like Bullfrog, Blizzard, and Maxis took over by released innovative games that didn't rely on gimmicks like FMV.

Only digitized adventure game that I ever felt pulled it off right was Harvester, and that is primarily because it stylized it into a surreal 1950's suburb where everything just felt wrong yet looked mundane.

And all this talk about innovative adventure games seems extremely narrow scoped to me. First you have to define an adventure game, and in this case it tends to be inventory/dialogue puzzles in a story driven game. How "innovative" can you be with that before it changes into another genre? Many RPG's have very distinctive adventure elements to them. Many strategy games likewise.

2 years ago I built a complete collection of every dos adventure game and the number of genre-blurring titles is nuts. There are puzzle games that have adventuring aspects (like Gobliiins), there are FPS games with adventuring aspects (System Shock), and there are RPG's that blur the line as well (such as several of SSI's D&D games).

Its not that adventure games have not had any innovation, it is that innovation naturally changes the genre to something else. Isn't this exactly what Ken said above, and why Roberta built KQ8 the way she did?

And yes, I believe Sierra would have still failed spectacularly even if Ken hadn't sold. I saw how horrid their software releases were by 98. One or two hits like Half Life would not have been enough to offset everything else. Anyone who is willing the change the entire direction of their company because of a conversation with Bill Gates is questionable. And anyone who thinks they can build a company that will "last forever" is a damned idiot.

[BagginsKQ]

Keep in mind adventure games were unsuccessful then, and they still are compared to other mainstream genres... Adventure games those that are still made still tend to make up the shovelware market... The only ones that have seen a bit more success did so through the digital download market, rather than shipped out physical games...

But companies still shy away from them, or change genres as that's the only way for the games to survive in the current market, and see success.

Indie companies tend to be a little more innovative, and open to release older genres but cost is low for whatever reason (lower overhead?). They don't see the success of mainstream releases unless the casual like angry birds, but I digress... Some of these indie games are more on exploration, discovery, and story rather than puzzles...

Also FMV never fully died, it just became a element or tool used in many different genres that aren't necessarily advertised as FMV themselves. Like Wing Commander III-V (1996-1998 or so), the games themselves were 3D combat sim engine, the FMV was used only for cutscenes (and a few ingame radio communications). Many modern games still use elements of FMV. It's not an advertising factor, it's just a tool at this point for style, as it's common and cheap to do now...

Interactive movie on the other hand, that was dying early on... Was it really that innovative?! They had light gun games and the Don Bluth arcade games since like the 70's... They aren't much different than the interactive novella and make choice books... Strange that it's making a comeback in 3D gaming engines...

[MusicallyInspired]

One of the very few FMV games I really liked were the Journeyman Project games. Hard adventure too. But I think they did it way better than Sierra did. Mostly because of the first person perspective. I'd even go so far as to call the Myst series (minus Uru and End of Ages) an FMV series.

[BagginsKQ]

They were definitely excellent... I was always a bit disappointed they only released the remake of the first game, Pegasus Prime on Mac.... I've wanted to play that game for years.

Ya, many of the Myst/Riven games utilize FMV... and it was those games that inspired alot of clones (good and bad) with FMV... See Zork Nemesis, and Zork: Grand Inquisitor (both were well done)...

[thom-22]

And all this talk about innovative adventure games seems extremely narrow scoped to me. First you have to define an adventure game, and in this case it tends to be inventory/dialogue puzzles in a story driven game. How "innovative" can you be with that before it changes into another genre? Many RPG's have very distinctive adventure elements to them. Many strategy games likewise.

Its not that adventure games have not had any innovation, it is that innovation naturally changes the genre to something else. Isn't this exactly what Ken said above, and why Roberta built KQ8 the way she did?

This is so true. It's analogous to organic evolution, which occurs not by the transformation of large monolithic entities, but in speciation events. i would argue that there were numerous speciation events in the early days of graphic adventures that produced a whole class of genres (with influences from other sources as well, of course). It really isn't surprising that the main line of adventure games still exists in a largely un-innovated state, much like the coelacanth :D, and innovations in puzzle-solving gameplay are coming from outside the genre.

Nor is it surprising that adventure games were abandoned by major publishers. Public tastes change and the money follows. Many genres are in the same boat and like adventures more or less survive or are being revived by indie developers. Even in between Sierra's demise and today's indie revolution, there were non-major publishers that continued to produce adventure games. (Many of which were Myst-clone snoozefests, but still... :D)

Many of these quotes from the Williamses strike me as useless for analytical purposes because Roberta thought she could define adventure gaming and disavow it at the same time. She might have truly believed that her vision for the eighth KQ title would be the equivalent of "evolving the genre", but by the later 90's King's Quest had ceased to be the definitive adventure game to all but die-hard Sierra fans. Evolving the genre was beyond her capacity at that point, although she and Sierra might very well have pioneered newer ones if she had stayed in the industry.

In hindsight at least, KQ8 is nothing more than a rather mundane case of a major publisher transitioning a game series from a decreasingly popular genre to a more profitable one, with little to no impact on the evolution of either.

[MusicallyInspired]

Return to Zork was also FMV.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Gods.. Journeyman Project, Myst 1-4, GK2.. games I love. I always find it sad when people feel the need to remind me that they're a "dead" genre, so to speak. I rarely find adventure games dull or repetitive as long as the writing is good. Interactive stories, I think, is a term I once heard used. Though they may have been talking more of the text-venture type of game, it still could be applied to adventure games in general, whether they're FMV, sprites, or animation.

It's hard to sit on the sidelines and hear the world declare something you enjoyed as "dead" or "boring" or even "uninspired" when much of the stuff outside that genre seemed just as boring and uninspired as the things they were claiming to be superior to.

I read that stuff that Ken said, and it made me feel like the industry was trying to tell me what I should like or what I'm supposed to think is popular. I've never held much truck with people in these companies claiming to know exactly what will and won't be good. Kind of like how they keep saying Disco is dead, yet I still listen to it quite often and I frequently saw people wearing bell-bottom pants in highschool and college back in the last 90's & early 2000's.

I'm all for wanting to get the game industry more respect or trying to establish some of it as an artform or even a superior story-telling device, but abandoning what came before simply cause it's not that interesting to some people is just.. seems short-sighted. Things like to come around in circles, and I think people fail to realize this.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Gods.. Journeyman Project, Myst 1-4, GK2.. games I love. I always find it sad when people feel the need to remind me that they're a "dead" genre, so to speak. I rarely find adventure games dull or repetitive as long as the writing is good. Interactive stories, I think, is a term I once heard used. Though they may have been talking more of the text-venture type of game, it still could be applied to adventure games in general, whether they're FMV, sprites, or animation.

It's hard to sit on the sidelines and hear the world declare something you enjoyed as "dead" or "boring" or even "uninspired" when much of the stuff outside that genre seemed just as boring and uninspired as the things they were claiming to be superior to.

I read that stuff that Ken said, and it made me feel like the industry was trying to tell me what I should like or what I'm supposed to think is popular. I've never held much truck with people in these companies claiming to know exactly what will and won't be good. Kind of like how they keep saying Disco is dead, yet I still listen to it quite often and I frequently saw people wearing bell-bottom pants in highschool and college back in the last 90's & early 2000's.

I'm all for wanting to get the game industry more respect or trying to establish some of it as an artform or even a superior story-telling device, but abandoning what came before simply cause it's not that interesting to some people is just.. seems short-sighted. Things like to come around in circles, and I think people fail to realize this.

I understand your point of view, and feel much the same way about many things. However, if you're a CEO of a company, no matter emotionally invested in a product, or a genre or whatever, that you previously put out--If said genre or product stops selling, any reasonable businessman will abandon it.

[Chyron8472]

I read that stuff that Ken said, and it made me feel like the industry was trying to tell me what I should like or what I'm supposed to think is popular. I've never held much truck with people in these companies claiming to know exactly what will and won't be good.

It's unfortunate.

Similar things were going on at LucasArts, where adventure games in general were abandoned in favor of Star Wars shovelware, and how they cancelled Sam & Max: Freelance Police quite close to launch because of "marketplace realities."

[gamer247]

Ok so I'm new to the Kings Quest series (actually Sierra games in general), can someone recommend a good point in the series to start off at?

[MusicallyInspired]

King's Quest 5 or 6 are widely regarded as the best. People who don't like dead ends or "moon logic" prefer 6. 4 isn't too bad either but there's a parser. You might also want to start right at the beginning with the free licensed AGDI remakes of KQ1, 2, and 3, remade in the style of KQ5/KQ6. The KQ2 remake, however, is heavily modified because the original didn't really have much going for it plot-wise. It was more like the first game. There are no dead ends in these remakes. IA also made a KQ3 remake. Links:

http://agdinteractive.com/
http://infamous-adventures.com/

You can get the original games (all eight) at GoG.com or Steam (the first seven).

[BagginsKQ]

I read that stuff that Ken said, and it made me feel like the industry was trying to tell me what I should like or what I'm supposed to think is popular. I've never held much truck with people in these companies claiming to know exactly what will and won't be good.
Hiroshi the problem was we are the niche, we are the minority. Yes we love adventures. I even love the hybrid adventure games too (the small list is adventure with RPG elements from Beyond Zork to KQ8, to Adventure games with combat action Dreamfall for example, or adventures with arcade mini games Space Quest series for example). I also like other genres a well (I'm not an adventure only player).

Sierra wasn't telling us what we had to play, they were changing with the times to focus on what the majority wanted to play, and were buying... They wanted to make what was most popular and sold more in the industry. They didn't to just break even or lose money on game production. That meant adventure gamers were left out.

Yes, much of that stuff became 'shovelware', but perhaps not after they made their 'killing' first...

[exo]

Kings Quest 5 is the easiest pick-up point as it has a fully integrated mouse driven system.

However, if you take the official/unofficial remakes into account you can go all the way back and start with Kings Quest sci release which ported the mouse system back.

Or, if your not afraid of a parsar interface and typing your commands you could always attempt them in their originals form.

Personally, I think I would play
KQ1 Sci - official sierra release - easy to download this version all over the net...
KQ2 AGDI - fan release (free)
KQ3 AGDI - fan release (free, though some may feel the Infanous Adventure KQ3 is 'purer')
KQ4 - this one is tricky as it has no 100% gui driven version, but the parsar interface is quite a bit better than the previous entries... I'd suggest giving it a shot though just to see how things used to be. You could always use a walk through for the first few screens to get an idea of how it works.
KQ5 -KQ8 - original versions, all available on Good old Games relatively cheap. KQ8 is optional, as some here consider it a spin-off...lol. Spin-off or not, it is a very different game from the other KQ games.

The only caveat to that is I would say I find the Win 3.1 version of KQ6 to be my favorite, but it can be a real bear to get running properly unless you install windows 3.1 into dosbox and then install the game from there.

Sierra has plenty of other great games, both in and out of the Quest series, but KQ is the one that got the train moving.

The Leisure Suit Larry games are being remade in HD with Al Lowe's help, so you may want to wait on that before pursing those games. They were considered "erotic adventures", but other than some easter eggs in part 7 there was no real nudity, and by today's movie standards the games feel "flirty" rather than erotic.

The Space Quest series is a hilarious Sci-Fi parody series staring an unlikely janitor. I'd probably recommend this series after finishing up Kings Quest, or in between KQ games.

SQ1 - Sierra SCI official release
SQ2 - Infamous Adventures fan release
SQ3 - same black hole as KQ4, requires parsar as no fan remake exists
SQ4-SQ6 - available on GoG as a pack, all have full mouse/GUI control.

The Police Quest series is extremely procedural, but manages to be both a thriller and slightly educational at the same time. Loosing the game because you didn't walk around your car before driving off, or not checking your gun at the door properly can be a bit much for some players though.

And finally, there are the adventure/RPG game hybrid series, Quest for Glory. I have not played this series myself, but it looks great and has a humongous fan base. Part 1 has an official sci remake, part two was remade by agdi, part three is parsar I believe, and part 4 is a full out cd adventure.

I hope this helps you get started. Others will have their own opinions on how you should play. i assume some will suggest you play them in their original form, parsar and all, instead of remakes or sci versions... but I feel it can be alienating for someone who has no experience with that. You could always try the original first and if it is too frustrating, play the sci/remake versions. Let us know how your games go - I'd love to talk the series through with someone as they are experiencing it for the first time.

[BagginsKQ]

Personally I recommend playing the official games, to get the real story/original puzzles, and then playing the fan games to get the fan fiction, and see the changes.

If you have a choice between playing original games and the official remakes, play the originals first, and then work your way into the remake. Again to see the story as it was originally told (evolution of the series), and then then the updated story/new puzzles...

This way you can better appreciate the evolution of the series.

There are alot of major changes made in several of the fan games, that don't always mesh with the official storyline (the natural evolution of the series)... If you do find yourself enjoying the 'fan fiction' divergences, you might find yourself disappointed later on, that none of the later games take the fan fiction into account.

On the other hand, those 'changes' are more fun, if you have played the entire original series first (as there are alot of references to later/previous games in the series), these references won't make much sense unlesss you know the official storyline, as they are nods and homages that play off the official storyline, though they change things in a different direction.

Basically to really enjoy KQ2 remake by AGDI, and KQ3 remake, its best to have played all the originals through including KQ8. As those remakes reference elements from nearly every game of the series. Those references won't mean anything to you if you play the series in order from the fan remakes, into the later games...

Also I believe in continuing to support the originals games (by buying them officially)... One of the reasons why fan games were allowed to have fan licenses by the owners of Sierra games, was it was believed that their existence wouldn't cut into continued sales of the originals (infact lead people to buy the originals).


And finally, there are the adventure/RPG game hybrid series, Quest for Glory. I have not played this series myself, but it looks great and has a humongous fan base. Part 1 has an official sci remake, part two was remade by agdi, part three is parsar I believe, and part 4 is a full out cd adventure

Keep in mind that the last game in the series, 5 does away with the adventure side of the hybrid, and goes straight to Action/RPG genre. The humor and interesting story is still there though!

[MusicallyInspired]

The only caveat to that is I would say I find the Win 3.1 version of KQ6 to be my favorite, but it can be a real bear to get running properly unless you install windows 3.1 into dosbox and then install the game from there.

Works fairly flawlessly and painlessly in ScummVM.

[gamer247]

I've always wanted to play one of the Sierra games in a somewhat misguided attempt to prove that not everyone in the Xbox generation is an idiot, plus I've always enjoyed adventures games as far back as I remember probably starting when I got some of the HE adventures games when I was like a toddler.

[BagginsKQ]

HE adventures?

BTW, you can play the first of the AGI official games on Sarien.net, semi-officially (the unofficial stuff, is the 'multiplayer' stuff). They got a license from Activision to upload the first of each series. Though technically Activison doesn't own the rights to Gold Rush! (that belongs to the Software Farm, original designers own the rights) or Black Cauldron (that belongs to Disney), or the Leisure Suit Larry games.

http://www.sarien.net/

So ya, technically Sarien.net may be pirating California: Gold Rush! and Black Cauldron (as Activision doesn't hold the rights to those games)... They no longer have the Larry games, as Activision doesn't hold the rights to that game.

http://www.softwarefarm.com/gr_collector.htm

You can get the original games (all eight) at GoG.com or Steam (the first seven).


Keep in mind, GOG lacks the remake of KQ1, and Steam lacks the original of KQ1. The intent of the GOG collections was to highlight the developmental history of the games from the original KQ1 to the last (KQ8).

Another problem with the Steam release is that KQ7 version included in it, isn't compatible with 64-bit windows.

[MusicallyInspired]

This site works wonders. http://sierrahelp.com/

[thom-22]

If you don't have any prior experience with a text parser, then I would recommend starting with the AGDI remakes of KQ1 and KQ2. Even if it initially seems that this is not your kind of game, stick it out with the first one because the second is an absolutely awesome Sierra-style gaming experience. Understand going in that you're not getting story canon (you can get that later if desired) but KQ games do not require any deep understanding of canon as you move from one to the next.

HE adventures?

Humongous Entertainment?

[BagginsKQ]

the second is an absolutely awesome Sierra-style gaming experience. Understand going in that you're not getting story canon (you can get that later if desired) but KQ games do not require any deep understanding of canon as you move from one to the next.


I really don't recommend jumping into KQ2:Romancing the Stones from AGDI, without having played the rest of the series first (canon series first in order)... There are many references that require knowledge of later games in the series including KQ3, KQ6, and KQ8. There are even a few nods to KQ4, and KQ7 as well. Maybe even KQ5.

The AGDI remakes of KQ2 and KQ3 are designed in such a way, that to best enjoy them, you would have to know everything about the official series first.

King's Quest 3 from Infamous Adventures fewer direct references to any other games in the series directly (other than some KQ5/KQ6 easter eggs/nods). So there is less worry, that you'll miss the references from some of the 'easter eggs', or be 'spoiled' by foreknowledge of future events in the series...

I'd think of it much as how its always best to read books series in 'publishing' order, as opposed to 'chronological', as often there are nods to things that are best understood if you have read the first published book first.

For example, in some ways Narnia flows better if you read them in the order they were written. As that is how the references build upon each other. Although in hindsight, C.S. Lewis preferred reading them in 'chronological' order.

With Tolkien's works, its better to read them in published order, of Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, HoME (slightly more optional, and not all of it is relevent to Middle Earth history) and then Children of Hurin (though this can be read in place of the same chapter in Silmarillion for the extended tale). Then it is to try to read them in a linear chronological fashion. As Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales contain 'spoilers' for earlier books in the series.

[MusicallyInspired]

The references themselves aren't required to enjoy the game, though.

[BagginsKQ]

But some of them can make things a little more confusing, without knowledge of later games, or spoil events in later games.

[thom-22]

I really don't recommend jumping into KQ2:Romancing the Stones from AGDI, without having played the rest of the series first (canon series first in order)... There are many references that require knowledge of later games in the series including KQ3, KQ6, and KQ8. There are even a few nods to KQ4, and KQ7 as well. Maybe even KQ5.

The AGDI remakes of KQ2 and KQ3 are designed in such a way, that to best enjoy them, you would have to know everything about the official series first.

Well, I do recommend them and I disagree with that last statement. :D

Sorry, Baggins, but the details of canon are never going to be as important to me as they are to you. That's simply not what the games meant to me. (The wholesale changes in story-telling style and tone in a certain other fan-made non-remake game is a different matter, about which I agree with you completely.)

I think it's far more important to prevent the possibility that a new player gets turned off to KQ/Sierra by the text parser, dead ends, and the older style of graphics than it is to make sure that they start with canon.

[BagginsKQ]

It seems were are discussing two very different things...
The wholesale changes in story-telling style and tone in a certain other fan-made non-remake game is a different matter, about which I agree with you completely.)

Personally, I'd say the tone of the KQ2 fan remake, and KQ3 Redux remake are different than the tone of the original games they were designed after... Darker in tone in some ways, more 'moody and angst'...

The 'good vampire' plotline leans to far on modern holywood vampire (more Twilight than Dracula), instead of the traditional vampire myth... The idea of a young innocent girl being turned into an undead vampire (with very little direct impact on the story ethically) instead of given that choice goes against style Roberta Williams (more black and white sense of morality) was known for, except for you look at Phantasmagoria... In some ways its more Gabriel night/Jane Jensen than Roberta's King's Quest (point of note even Roberta admitted that KQ6 was not in her style, and more influenced by Jane Jensen).

This quest seems to have a darker, more ominous tone than the other King’s Quests; it is also more wordy. Is there a reason?

I was thinking that same thing the other day, but I don’t believe we made it intentionally ominous. It just turned out that way.

The reason it’s more wordy is that I didn’t write the text. This is the first time I have had a collaborator. Jane Jensen wrote all the script, and we worked on the story line and character together. We spent a month working together before Ken and I left on a two-month vacation to France.

Jane has a different style than I do, and maybe she is more text oriented. Even her design documents were four times as thick as mine usually are - her fingers just fly on a word processor.


Roberta also tended to lean on christian myth & black and white moral choices, so her priests were good, and vampires were evil... Samhain was a god of death (a conservative christian myth/propaganda from 1700s about Pagans and Druids that Wiccans actually find as prejudiced towards their beliefs...)...

Both AGDI and TSL rely too much on the concepts of Black Cloak Society, and there involvement witih 'everything' that has happened during the series... There manipulations are forced into being the motive behind nearly every other game in the series past and future (this is one of the reasons I recommend playing the original series in order first to be able catch these references, and not be spoiled)...

Graham is ancestor/reincarnation of an ancient super race in TSL (Leo the Noble) and he's the ancestor of ancient super race in AGDI (Leginimor and Granthithor)...

The Father is ancient, and the leading member of a super race from Daventry's ancient past... Shadrack is ancient, and the leading member of a super race from Daventry's past... Both are destined to battle with Graham in the present...

In both stories the Black Cloaks and royal family are destined to fight each other over millennia, until a prophecy is fulfilled...

In both games, the villains are concerned with obtaining ancient treasures to regain their ultimate and dark powers (Pandora's Box and The Item)....

I always find there is a certain level of fanboyism that people seem to overlook the similiarties between both stories, and play favorites to which ever series they are fans with (there are TSL fanboys that think that game is better, and there are AGDI fanboys that think that game is better, although they share many of the same concepts)...

Personally I don't find both stories all that original (and are representive of much that is fan fiction (mary/gary stus and all))...

Personally I'm looking forward to MusicallyInspired's KQ2 remake, as I think he's going to get it right... Not resort to any fan fiction cliches...

[thom-22]

Personally, I'd say the tone of the KQ2 fan remake, and KQ3 Redux remake are different than the tone of the original games they were designed after... Darker in tone in some ways, more 'moody and angst'...

The overall tone of AGDI's remakes doesn't seem remarkably different from the originals, or moody or angsty, to me. The Father stuff was enjoyable as a transient departure from canon, but pretty much went in one ear and out the other; I never felt like I was being hammered over the head with it. I was immersed in the beautiful gameworld and the general idea of the quest, not the details or comparative analysis with other kinds of fiction.

[BagginsKQ]

I never felt like I was being hammered over the head with it...not the details or comparative analysis with other kinds of fiction.
Let me guess, that describes how you feel about the The Silver Lining?

Would you be surprised, that I find positives and negatives in both games, there are some things I think TSL gets right, other things AGDI gets right, some things both gets right, other things both get wrong?

Actually, I still think Infamous Adventures comes the closest to getting nearly everythign right, and the feel of the series as a whole...

Several of the developers of Infamous Adventures are also critical of the stuff in AGDI and TSL, for the very same reasons I am, and they vowed they don't want to go down that path with their games...

http://www.infamous-adventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=4767.0

http://www.infamous-adventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=4509.0

http://www.infamous-adventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=5125.45
It just seems to be that AGDI went down the path of Gabriel King's Quest: Sins of the Father (pun intended), and TSL was The Beast Within (pun intended)...

[Chyron8472]

I have not played TSL (beyond the demo of the first chapter). I am not going to play TSL. I have heard about certain plot contrivances and over-dramatizations it creates for the characters, and I don't want to ruin my perceptions of the canon games (further) by coloring them with TSL's backstory.

As for IA's KQ3, the voiceover work is a bit subpar for certain characters, and I dislike clicking after each and every line of dialogue. (Yes, I've heard certain things may be fixed for the next version, but it has not been fixed yet so I maintain my position.)

The only thing I disliked about AGDI's KQ3Redux was that the animation for the green orb was both too lengthy and somewhat silly (in that "pinball" sort of way). They should have just had it float into the sky and radiate a light that fixed everything.

Also, someone should do a KQ4 remake. Someone other than Magic Mirror Games, since their project will likely not finish in the next decade.

[BagginsKQ]

I have heard about certain plot contrivances and over-dramatizations it creates for the characters,
Ya, I don't understand why many fan writers and developers do this in their fan games and fan fiction (AGDI and POS included). They tend to make things far more complicated than they need to be... Stretch suspension of disbelief and occam's razor... Create mary and gary stus...

I think think the Magic Mirror games is dead...

[MusicallyInspired]

Because it was fun. And a lot of people enjoyed it. That's why.

Also, many of the issues with IA's KQ3 will be rectified in KQ3 Gold.

[thom-22]

Let me guess, that describes how you feel about the The Silver Lining?

Mmm, that's probably not exactly how I'd describe it. But just as with KQ2+, I could brush aside those parts of the story that seemed wrong to focus on the parts I'd enjoy. And in fact, once away from the royal palace, I had a great time with the adventuring/exploring/puzzle-solving parts of TSL. Except for an odd character and occasional weird narrator thing, it was mostly very KQ-like -- beautiful landscapes, magical goings-on, puzzles diffused in a cohesive mystery, no signposting that detracted from me shaping my own experience, the usual hand-eye-feet modes, cool inventory items, etc. I also liked the moderate use of arcade bits and timed puzzles at the end of the last episode, not exactly KQ-like but fitting and fun.

Nothing in these fan games did -- or could -- change my feelings about the originals. Which is why I don't really have a preference for 1:1 remakes. As long as the producers have a talent for gameplay design, I'm glad to get new locations and change-ups in the puzzles. If they fuck up the story, I'll pretend they didn't and write my own. :cool: (We are talking about games we didn't have to pay for, after all.)

[Hiroshi Mishima]

One of the reason I don't like dabbling much in fan-fiction is that it invariably feels foreign or unnatural compared to the original material. Often I'll come away feeling that character y or plot-point x were done poorly, taken out of context, or missing altogether in a way that seems really obvious to someone looking at it from the outside.

Unfortunately, I've also seen this happen to official works when the original creator leaves because then you start getting other peoples ideas that don't always mesh or, as has been said, relies too much on existing modern concepts and ideas. However, the same could also be true if the creator comes back after one or more successful sequels, and claims nothing that happened matched his vision despite feeling seamless and natural. Ala Ron Gilbert and Guybrush marrying Elaine.

I'm really hesitant to go anywhere near some of the fan-sequels or even a few of the fan remakes simply because of all the extra additions or re-imaginings that either come out of nowhere (ancestor/descendant) or rely on very brief, almost throw-away, information that had little to do with the overall plot such as the Black Cloak Society.

That said, I was always kind of curious about the BCS in regards to the previous games, particularly in 5 and 6, and was a bit disappointed they never went anywhere with it.

[MusicallyInspired]

What fangames did you feel this way about? I'm curious.

Also, the BCS wasn't in KQ5, only KQ6. And it was specifically called "Society of the Black Cloak". In KQ5 Crispin and Mordack were members of the "Society of Wizards", which is moreso a group with good intentions, as alluded to by Crispin saying that Mordack had been "put on suspension" more than a few times.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

My memory is probably playing tricks on me, but I could've sworn that there was mention of both Mannanon (or however it's spelled) and Mordack having been working together in KQ5. Something about them being brothers or friends or something.

However, I may also be pulling information from my memories of the Companion's story section, which was really interested and in ways helped me enjoy the experience of playing the games even more. I often would read the stories as I played the games during later replays, and always after I'd finish a game I'd read the book's version of events. I may be thinking of the mention but it was only in the Companion. Or maybe as you say, I'm getting my memories of 5 and 6 a little mixed up.

Age has not helped my memory this last year..

[MusicallyInspired]

Canonically Manannan is Mordack's older brother. I was pointing out that the Companion stated that Hagatha was the third sibling, when in fact she isn't.

[BagginsKQ]

In Sierra's canon, Hagatha is also Manannan and Mordack's sister. See Sierra's 15th Anniversary King's Quest Collection and King's Questions (including input by Josh Mandel and Mike Hutchinson)...

Roberta just forgot that detail (after she left the company)... Even though she collaborated on them nearly a decade and a half before on many of those ideas (with Peter Spear and others)... Like she forgot about the Society of the Black Cloak, and never got back to using it... She has admitted that she very rarely looked back at older material, and mainly focused on her present ideas... That's why we have several examples where she forgot about some of the stuff she worked on in the past, and only cared about her present work.

Right now she's apparently more focused on research for a book she is writing on Irish family history (IIRC), than looking back at anything in her Sierra years.

Also since Roberta no longer owns the series, she has little control over what goes on it, what ever Activison decides to do with the series now becomes the 'canon'...

However, to be fair Sierra never really used terms like 'canon', neither did Roberta... The used terms like "authorized", "official", or endorsments such as good place to learn more about universe in "greater depth and detail".

Canon is more of a fan speculation if anything... Hell there are people who try to force and claim that fan games are 'canon'....

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I just hope Activision doesn't do to King's Quest what Nintendo did to Metroid. That'd be a very sad day, indeed...

[BagginsKQ]

What did Nintendo do to Metroid?

Uh, other than the changes to the original story in Metroid Zero Mission remake?

What's bad about them? Metroid Prime series was excellent... I even liked the Other M as far as a fun game (it took quite a bit from Fusion)...

Granted, I don't really play Metroid games for story... I play them in the same reason I play Castlevania, for the action-adventure...

If you want convoluted Nintendo storylines, one only needs to look at Zelda (uh two timelines?) or Mario games (about as convoluted as you can get)...

[MusicallyInspired]

What the heck is wrong with Metroid? Besides Other M, I mean....

And actually, Zelda apparently officially has 3 timelines now.

[BagginsKQ]

3 now? WTF?

Canonically Manannan is Mordack's older brother.
Actually I think a few sources might have said Mordack is Manannan's older brother... Although he looks younger :p...

I'm not sure KQ5 ever really specified on their ages... Neither did the King's Quest Companion... Just some of those advertisements for the game in Interaction, IIRC...

There are several sources that state Mordack is the more powerful wizard...

Actually it might be AGDI that first 'assumed' that Manannan is the 'older brother' in their fan games.

[wilco64256]

Heh the only Metroid game I have a problem with is Other M and mainly my issue with that game is the length - easily the shortest Metroid game I've ever played. When it ended I was totally and completely shocked at how quickly it was over. I thought it was like 1/3 of the way done and the credits were ready to roll. I wasn't happy about that.

[BagginsKQ]

I don't know, it seemed shorter than the Prime series, but I think it was quite a bit longer than most of the early Metroid games, that were designed to be beaten quickly (3 hours or less)...

Also if you saw the initial credits, that isn't even the entire game, they make you go back in to get the final ending...

Kind of strange for Metroid, but it reminded me of epilogue quest in Lunar 2 (that starts past the first credits)...

In anycase, its the initial half of the game that plays more like Fusion, as far as linear travel through the ship...

It isn't until you get into the second half of the game past the first credits, the the game opens up, and becomes more dynamic, allow free roam exploration, to find new hidden areas and challenges. The second half is better.

BTW. Zero Mission and Fusion are probably my least favorite metroid games... Fusion primarily because its short length, and its overal linearity... Zero Mission, because I'm not that big a fan of remakes... I'd rather see new stories... It was also a bit more linear than the original Metroid (though not as much as Fusion)...

Sigh, I hope they bring on a game set after Fusion though... I'm looking forward to be an enemy of the Federation!

[Hiroshi Mishima]

In regards to Metroid.. I started to hate what Nintendo was doing when they introduced the Zero Suit. I really don't wanna get sucked into a tirade about that.. I'll just say that it and the general portrayal of Samus started pushing her character downhill in my eyes. Growing up I thought she was a strong female role model (unique in the gaming industry at the time), but now she's just a "dumb blonde" who makes poor decisions (lowering guard in hostile territory, panicking for no reason, frequently taking off her suit) and shows off her stuff in a skin-tight leather suit. As such, MZM is my least favourite game - although the sped-up gameplay style, unnecessary added stuff, and the fact it's a heavy-handed remake didn't help my feelings towards it. Quite unlike Lunar's remakes which were done very well and didn't feel convoluted as pandering to the lowest common denominator.

The irony is that I enjoyed most of the gameplay. Well, except for the Devil's Run that was clearly inspired by non-Varia sections of fangames. I thought that was stupid, and Samus would never do something so reckless if she HAD the damned upgrade to begin with. That's like asking someone to go walk across a mine field but NOT use that mine detector they're carrying.

I actually did like Metroid Prime 1-3, I just wish that 3'd had better writing cause we meet the hunters and then kill them, and there's no reason to feel sad cause we never got to know them.. unlike in say, an RPG, where we develop an understanding or familiarity with the others and feel anguish over having to kill them. The other problem I have with Prime is I can't replay them very well. I just never feel like its worth it, but that could be cause I'm not keen on FPS games in general and don't like missing scans. :p

But Other M? Oh gods.. Fusion was my second favourite game in the series after Super; I liked it for a lot of reasons, and didn't mind the linearity cause I enjoyed the storyline. I can't even play Fusion now without seeing foreshadows of what happened in Other M. Sakamoto has practically raped Samus' character. As for length... eh, I can beat Super Metroid in like 2-3 hours, maybe 5 if I'm going for 100% and don't recall where everything is. So the fact that, if I follow a map for the extra items I don't remember, I can beat Fusion in about 2 hours doesn't bother me so much. It was also a first-gen GBA title and I know they got better with 2-D platformers as time went on. MZM was short cause it was a remake that didn't need to get made and they had to actually add material just to lengthen it out (which wasn't necessary to begin with).


As you say, Baggins, I have been waiting for Nintendo to follow the natural course of the storyline and have Samus go against the Federation - I even attempted to come up with an appropriately fitting/decent storyline called Duality that I did some basic design documents for to keep myself occupied, though I doubt I'll ever do anything with them..

I keep thinking Nintendo is afraid to make Fusion 2 because they're hesitant to make the "military" into the bad guy after saying what nice folks they all are in earlier games. Why else would they keep putting it off and going down alternate routes?

...I'm sorry I.. Metroid is one of those things I get really passionate or easily upset over. I apologize if I'm being rude. Thinking of what Samus has become as a character just drains me mentally and deeply saddens me. I didn't mean to pull the thread off topic.

[MusicallyInspired]

Early Metroid games were designed to be beaten in 3 hours or less?????? WHAT?

[BagginsKQ]

Early Metroid games were designed to be beaten in 3 hours or less?????? WHAT?

Yes, to get the best endings in early metroid games, in which Samus took her clothes off you had to beat the games fast... It wasn't about 'collecting 100%'.

I don't know if it was an injoke toward's 'fast women'... or not...

In the original the best ending required you to beat the game in under an hour.

In Metroid II, the best ending required you to beat it under 3 hours.

In Super Metroid the best ending required you to beat it under 3 hours.

In Metroid Fusion, the best ending required you to beat it under 3 hours with 100% items.

The best endings in Zero Mission, required beating the games (in normal or hard mode) under 2 hours with 100% items... Alternatively there are a couple of challenge endings, for beating the game with 15% of items or less (more difficult I suppose), but for those endings time was not a factor (although chances are with only 15% of items, you probably will beat the game under 2 hours, as the player isn't actively trying to collect all the secrets which is the time consuming aspect).


Likewise, Castlevania II also mimiced Metroid in that you got best endings by beating the game quickly.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, that was a challenge to receive a bonus. The games weren't DESIGNED to be beaten that fast. Obviously you need to spend a LOT more than 3 hours to get to that sort of speed! Average playtime would be in the vicinity of a few months at least for new players.

[BagginsKQ]

Not even a few months... a few days... I beat the game in about 5-6 hours the first play through, 4 hours in second and 3 in the third... Taking Super Metroid as an example... The idea is not to collect everything in early games (in super metroid going out of your way to collect everything could take about 4-5 hours even if you tried to go quickly), but collect just enough to be able to beat the bosses efficiently. So yes, the time it takes to beat the game once, isn't really all that long... The endings are just superflous extras...

The Metroid Prime Games and Other M on the other hand, are designed for 'completion' to get the best endings (100%). Completion takes much longer... They require about 15-20 hours. Other M about 12-15 or so (counting the second half, which is the only half that allows 100% collection).

I have never had to 'spend a few' months to beat a metroid game... Not unless I busy and stretching my game play to a hour every few weeks...

[MusicallyInspired]

I never said anything about collecting items. Sometimes you just don't beat the boss the first time through. Especially true of the second Ridley confrontation. Or you get lost. Or you can't figure out a few puzzles. I refuse to believe you can get through Super Metroid on a single playthrough without knowing anything about the game first. If you can you really must have no life. Super Metroid is a BIG game.

[BagginsKQ]

I was counting 'total time' played... Convenient little counter the game takes... Of course I don't just sit there and play a game for 8 hours straight.... I take the time to save... Also Super Metroid has a nice little map 'dots' that point out if there is an item in the area to collect. So that helps to figure out where items are collected... That being said I don't think I had more than 90% collection when I beat Super Metroid the first time... I also didn't go automatically back to replaying the game, just after I beat it... That may be a few months later, or even a year... As I often move onto to other games instead...

I don't count the time i'm not playing the game, as 'time it took me to finish the game'... As I wasn't physically playing the game....

If I went by time I wasn't playing the game, it actually took me 2.5 months to finish Other M, because I was very busy...

Seriously Super Metroid isn't that difficult of a game, there was no reason for me to 'restart'... I did beat it the first time through, after many save periods... I beat it within a week or two of play... I remember renting it... The last boss isn't that difficult...

yes, there is one problem with 'total time played'. It doesn't count the times, you die, and have to reload... I'd say that probably add a couple of hours more...

I surely had my share of deaths in Other M...

[Hiroshi Mishima]

How long did it take me to beat Other M? Maybe two days?

As for games like Super Metroid and Fusion? It certainly didn't take me months to get to the point where I could beat it very quickly. In fact my first time playing/beating it was under 6 hours with less than 100%, which was actually faster than the time I first took beating Fusion.

Insofar as a game like Metroid is concerned, it is the game that pretty much created the speedrun, at least Super Metroid, anyways. Also, I never really had an issue with Samus removing her suit if you beat it super fast, it was when it became part of the storyline and she'd be taking it off constantly (and at terrible times) that I really began to dislike it. I also think the Zero Suit's design is abysmal and they could've done a lot better.

But really, Super Metroid and Fusion are the only games I really "speedrun". In fact, it's something I enjoy immensely. There's no storyline, just pure action.

[BagginsKQ]

I can't stand the fusion suit either... It's basically the zero suit with a helmet, and a couple of hard pieces stuck on... I never liked the visual look, more gaunt zombie than intimidating...

She's about as near as weak as she is in the Zero suit... But still has her weapons...

[MusicallyInspired]

I really liked Fusion.

[BagginsKQ]

I enjoyed it the first time through, despite the linearity... But all the text just became tedious on later play throughs... It's still fun though.

I just consider to be on one of the weaker entries...

Super Metroid is my favorite, followed closely by the Prime games (especially the first two), and then the original...

[MusicallyInspired]

I really liked Zero Mission. But it was way too easy. Incredibly fun to sequence break, from what I hear though. I don't like sequence breaking myself so I don't do it.

[BagginsKQ]

Truth be told Zero Mission is probably next favorite after the list above... It has the old school metroid feel (full-exploratory feel), although its slightly more linear...

I didn't particularly like the art style though... One of the things I liked about Super Metroid, was that Gunpei Yokoi (may he rest in peace) made the decisoin to essential go with artwork that had 'retro' feel. Zebus though fully updated with beautiful backgrounds, the geography was certainly inspired by the geography from the first game... The same types of rocks and bricks... There were certain key landmarks in Super Metroid that were taken directly from the original! New areas tended to be more organic and natural looking though. Grass and soil, etc...

It took the 8bit artwork and updated it to 16bit! There were all those little nods to specific locations linking the two games together!

Zero Mission went for an entire update going for a more comic book art style, with planet scape that looked nothing like either the original or Super Metroid... More like Fusion. With geography I suppose was more realistic, but less alien looking... Solid rock, more sand/soil, instead of the 'brick/constructed' look.

The map was pretty much redesigned, and many of the landmarks from the original game were replaced with new landmarks (some original and some inspired by Super Metroid). But doesn't have nearly the same impact as the direct links they made between Metroid and Super Metroid. As there aren't many places that still look anything like their counterparts in the original games.

I suppose I just enjoyed the novelity of Gunpei Yokoi's chosen art direction, and the intentional updated 'retro' feel, as opposed to later designers take on world of Zebes...

Still it was a fun game... For what it was! It's definitetly one of the more replayable games in the series for a quick game... Because as far as gameplay feel its closer to the original/super metroid in feel.

Yes, it was too easy!

But I'll tell you one thing, I unlocked the original Metroid in the game, and had way more fun replaying it through on a portable system than the Zero Mission part of the game itself!

[Chyron8472]

And actually, Zelda apparently officially has 3 timelines now.

NO. Don't say that. Never say that again. ever.

The games are canon. The manuals are canon (which I include because of the "Gannon" typo in the LOZ intro.)

That's it. Strategy guides don't count, convoluted story books (made long after the fact and not written by the original writers of the involved games) don't count. Said book may be licensed by Nintendo but that doesn't mean the ones who authorized the license for the book actually read--or had any involvement in writing--the material in question.

Call it authorized fan-fiction, but it's still fan-fiction, and therefore inherently false.

[BagginsKQ]

American version or Japanese versions of the manuals and games? Sometimes there are differences when NOA localized games...

Case in point, the placement of LTTP in the timeline was different in Japan than in American translations, IIRC...

But seriously, I think we are going way off topic!

[Lambonius]

My favorite King's Quest game is King's Quest 5.

[exo]

NO. Don't say that. Never say that again. ever.

The games are canon. The manuals are canon (which I include because of the "Gannon" typo in the LOZ intro.)

Nintendo themselves released a zelda timeline to rectify all the games and provide some idea of where skyward sword fit in.

here we go again with Chyron deciding he doesn't like something, and even if the creator deems it so, he lives in his own universe. :rolleyes:

And as far as metroid goes... does it matter what suit your wearing? The games are all identical. Get bomb, get rocket, get sticky ball, etc etc etc. Everytime you get a new item, backtrack to the door you couldn't get through before. Continue until completion. They are fun games and some of them have remarkable art styles, but the gameplay itself is about as predictable as it gets.

[Lambonius]

And as far as metroid goes... does it matter what suit your wearing? The games are all identical. Get bomb, get rocket, get sticky ball, etc etc etc. Everytime you get a new item, backtrack to the door you couldn't get through before. Continue until completion. They are fun games and some of them have remarkable art styles, but the gameplay itself is about as predictable as it gets.

Still though, it's always been great enough to be REALLY compelling. Sure, there's a formulaic quality to it, but that formula has to then be APPLIED to an interesting and varied world that is fun to explore and at least FEELS like it has tons of secrets to uncover. It's that sense of exploration and getting lost in the world that is the essence that makes Metroid games awesome, not so much the "get item/backtrack/advance/get next item" formula.

I wouldn't say the Metroid games have suffered NEARLY as much because of the formula as Zelda games have.

[Chyron8472]

here we go again with Chyron deciding he doesn't like something, and even if the creator deems it so, he lives in his own universe. :rolleyes:

1) George Lucas is an idiot and is ruining Star Wars. He may have the legal right to ruin Star Wars, but I don't have to be happy about it or accept it.

2) There is no cutscene, plot device nor any other element of OOT that requires the player to watch Link die. There is no game in which it is said "...after the defeat of the Hero of Time..." or any other such similar thing. His death is assumed and plays no part in any other game's story besides as a dumb way to explain the full Triforce being encountered at the end of LTTP.

Nintendo themselves released a zelda timeline to rectify all the games and provide some idea of where skyward sword fit in.

Did you miss the part where I said: "said book may be licensed by Nintendo but that doesn't mean the ones who authorized the license for the book actually read--or had any involvement in writing--the material in question. Call it authorized fan-fiction, but it's still fan-fiction, and therefore inherently false."

Whoever wrote that book and drew that diagram is no more guessing at how the games fit than any fan might. The fact that someone at Nintendo gave them the license to draw the diagram doesn't mean that whoever made it knows what the hell they're talking about, especially when they're assuming something that hasn't happened to me in all of my OOT playthroughs since maybe the first couple of times.

[BagginsKQ]

http://entertainment.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/10/10372867-george-lucas-greedo-always-shot-first

Lucas is now saying that Greedo always shot first, and his edits were just making that more obvious.

“It had been done in all close-ups and it was confusing about who did what to whom,” Lucas told THR. “I put a little wider shot in there that made it clear that Greedo is the one who shot first, but everyone wanted to think that Han shot first, because they wanted to think that he actually just gunned him down.”

Because he did!

Lucas goes on to blame the rest of the world for wanting Han to be a “cold-blooded killer,” thus misinterpreting the film for decades.


Ya, sure Lucas... You just keep lieing to yourself if it makes your goiter happy...

[exo]

Did you miss the part where I said: "said book may be licensed by Nintendo but that doesn't mean the ones who authorized the license for the book actually read--or had any involvement in writing--the material in question. Call it authorized fan-fiction, but it's still fan-fiction, and therefore inherently false."


Do you realize how friggin idiotic you sound? That is like you saying that KQ8 is "authorized" fan fiction just because you don't like it.

Nintendo is the owner of the Zelda franchise. So your opinion doesn't mean squat compared to what they release. i'm not saying you have to like it, but you are simply delusional if you think you can go around calling officially released materials 'authorized fan fiction".

You seem to live in a world where you create your own rules for things and then you don't understand why others don't agree with your retarded point of view.

Your opinion and whether you like something has absolutely no bearing on how official something is. Can you understand that?

[MusicallyInspired]

It's equatable to considering the Star Wars prequels as fan fiction. You can do it if you want. Actually, you can do anything if you want.

[exo]

I'm not saying he can't live in his own fantasy world. I'm just saying he can't expect any of us to buy into it as well.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, I'm with him, really. I don't accept the timeline because it doesn't make sense and wasn't written by Miyamoto. That's all I care about.

[exo]

Miyamoto's timeline doesn't exactly... make sense.

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Miyamoto_Order

either way - the point is, arguing that something is not true or official because you don't like it is daft.

You can't call something Nintendo publishes "fan fiction" just because you disagree.

You can always disagree and come up with your own theory, but that doesn't automatically invalidate sourced information.

What is so hard to grasp about this concept?

[MusicallyInspired]

You can say anything you want and take anything you want as canon. It's a fair game. WE'RE the customers. We can choose to believe whatever we'd like about fiction in general because the customer is always right. It's made for OUR entertainment so we can take it however we'd like. If you have a problem with that then, well, you go ahead and have a tantrum about it but it's not going to change anybody's mind.

Personally, I don't think anybody at Nintendo (even Miyamoto) has one freaking clue about the timeline themselves and just wishes the issue would go away. Miyamoto himself has stated numerous times his "facts" on the timeline and every time he talks about them it's one contradiction after the other. He has no clue how he wants them all to map out.

[Chyron8472]

arguing that something is not true or official because you don't like it is daft.

Arguing that a persons participation in development of something automatically makes them an undeniable expert in every single aspect of it or its relationship to/effect on similar things, is ludicrously naive and gullible.

What if Christopher Tolkien released another companion book to The Lord of the Rings, in which he claimed Sauron originally had hair the color and appearance of pink cotton candy? His family owns the rights to the story, so why deny his explanation even if he clearly doesn't know what the hell he's talking about nor has significant evidence to prove it, right?

[BagginsKQ]

I stopped careing about Zelda timeline, years ago... I just play the games because they are fun, and they each tell an interesting story...

You can go insane if you think about the timeline too hard...

You can say anything you want and take anything you want as canon. It's a fair game. WE'RE the customers. We can choose to believe whatever we'd like about fiction in general because the customer is always right. It's made for OUR entertainment so we can take it however we'd like. If you have a problem with that then, well, you go ahead and have a tantrum about it but it's not going to change anybody's mind.
Technically only the companies (i.e. in place of the Church, from which the term canon is derived) can define what is and isn't canon... But in general most companies aren't pedantic enough to get that specific... The ones who do get pedantic, start adding and tossing out material at whim, as they feel like it...

Star Trek comes to mind... They are very specific as to what is 'canon'... While they have a huge list of 'licensed' spinoff material, in the past they had been very specific that 'only the movies, and the the TV shows are canon'. They have waffled a bit on the Animated Series (in the past stating it isn't canon, at times stating that parts of it canon, or even saying that all of it may be canon, this is constantly in flux). Roddenberry himself personally 'tossed out' the animated series, and Star Trek V in his view. But after he passed, the company eased up on that... Star Trek V has almost consistently be considered canon by Paramount in modern times...
What if Christopher Tolkien released another companion book to The Lord of the Rings, in which he claimed Sauron originally had hair the color and appearance of pink cotton candy? His family owns the rights to the story, so why deny his explanation even if he clearly doesn't know what the hell he's talking about nor has significant evidence to prove it, right?

Did you know that J.R.R. Tolkien actually had said in his writings, that he wanted people to expand his world? That others may know things about his world, that even he didn't know? He thought that other writers in his world would be inevitable... There is even one letter, IIRC, that says that he wanted to give permission for others to write stories in his universe when he passed.

However, Christopher Tolkien decided to go against his father's wishes (for the most part), and keep all the rights within the family.

Of course, Chris never had full rights over LOTR and the Hobbit, as his father had sold those to the Paul Zaentz Company/Tolkien Enterprises. That company has been able to make all sorts of spinoff material, long after JRR's death... To Chris's chagrin, or so I've read...

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, that makes Chris a douche then, doesn't it.

[BagginsKQ]

Well, that makes Chris a douche then, doesn't it.
Some people think so, other 'purists' are glad he kept it that way...

There are some middle of the roaders, that wish he would ease up a bit, in so much to allow more editors to release more of the 'nearly finished' core 'great tales' storylines, or stories that could be completed with limited editorial additions...

Actually there is something like that already (The Tale of Gondolin by Alex Lewis, illus by Ruth Lacon), that got limited publication by permission from another one of the Tolkiens (Chris sister I think), that people think should get a good final edit by Chris, and then an official rerelease...

Originally there were only like 50 copies printed...

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/reviews/taleofgondolin.htm

As for JRR Tolkien endorsing budding writers to add to his world... IIRC, there are also some rather rare fan fiction published in Tolkien society newsletter (or whatever the letter Tolkien had quite a bit of involvement with) while he was alive back in the 70s... Which he JRR may have even left some of his opinions of... (but I don't know all the details) One of the more noteable of these was apparently two-three short stories about Arwen, or some other famous female elf from the legendarium (I can't remember exactly).

JRR's view, was not much different (other than there being much more people involved) than Roberta also saying something similar;

As to a King's Quest IX: Since I will never design a King's Quest 9, it would be unfair of me to comment on any one else's endeavors in that area. However, if there were ever to be a King's Quest 9, I wish it luck and hope that it could revive interest in adventure gaming as a whole and in the original King's Quest games in general.

Note: On a sidenote, the strangest though noteable, of Tolkien universe related publication history, is the existence of about four books by two different authors, that are technically unauthorized 'profic' (professional fiction)... Published in countries that do not follow international copyright laws, such as Russia. So fan-fiction that was written to make money...

One is a retelling of LOTR trilogy from the Morder's perspective, portraying the so-called 'dark' forces, are actually a benevolent technologically superior enlightened democratic culture, while it shines the light on the "Peoples" (humans, elves, dwarves, etc) and 'Fellowship" as superstitious, backwards, and racist people, under monarchal dictatorships. LOTR represents the 'history written by the victors'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

The other is the Ring of Darkness" trilogy set some 300 years after LOTR trilogy, following the decendents of the original.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Perumov

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ring_of_Darkness

Strange indeed...

[exo]

The Last Ringbearer sounds really interesting. I think I'll read that.

[Blackthorne519]

Everyone knows only three Zelda games count - The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II and A Link To The Past and even those.... who knows how the fuck they fit together in a timeline! All that matters is they were fun to play!


Bt

[Anakin Skywalker]

Everyone knows only three Zelda games count - The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II and A Link To The Past and even those.... who knows how the fuck they fit together in a timeline! All that matters is they were fun to play!


Bt

Kinda like KQ, where to most 'fans' only KQ6 counts.

[DAISHI]

I find KQII to be pretty bad. It felt like it was doing the same thing as the first, but BIGGER!

[DAISHI]

You can say anything you want and take anything you want as canon. It's a fair game. WE'RE the customers. We can choose to believe whatever we'd like about fiction in general because the customer is always right. It's made for OUR entertainment so we can take it however we'd like. If you have a problem with that then, well, you go ahead and have a tantrum about it but it's not going to change anybody's mind.

Personally, I don't think anybody at Nintendo (even Miyamoto) has one freaking clue about the timeline themselves and just wishes the issue would go away. Miyamoto himself has stated numerous times his "facts" on the timeline and every time he talks about them it's one contradiction after the other. He has no clue how he wants them all to map out.

Yeah. Nintendo started out making games, and then built stories around them. The story was always second, so it's expected that there's inconsistencies. I think Nintendo realizes that but has just tried to make fans happy by creating a timeline that would satisfy a group of them. BUt I don't think any of the developers personally care too much. I think if it were up to Miyamoto there'd be a lot less story in the Zelda games than there is now, meager though it may be.

[KatieHal]

Kinda like KQ, where to most 'fans' only KQ6 counts.

Yeah, man, those other games, they just NEVER happened. I mean, duh. :P

Some game universes have sloppy timelines with a lot of inconsistency. It happens. In most cases, I don't see much point in nitpicking them, personally. Hell, even purely contained inside KQ7 there's never a satisfactory answer for why Rosella & Valanice don't finally find one another in Chapter 4 or 5.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Yeah, man, those other games, they just NEVER happened. I mean, duh. :P

Some game universes have sloppy timelines with a lot of inconsistency. It happens. In most cases, I don't see much point in nitpicking them, personally. Hell, even purely contained inside KQ7 there's never a satisfactory answer for why Rosella & Valanice don't finally find one another in Chapter 4 or 5.

Even in the best and most tightly constructed universes--Like Tolkien's--there are inconsistencies. Also Roberta didn't seem to be a stickler for making an ordered universe. This is the same universe where Dracula, Little Red Riding Hood, King Neptune and Pegasus all exist in the same game; Where the Three Bears and Medusa exist in the same country; Where a 19th Century style Manor sits next to an Ancient Egyptian-esque tomb.