What about KQ appeals to you? [Archive]

Blackthorne519

05/20/2012, 07:47 am

Anakin Skywalker

05/20/2012, 07:53 am

There IS nothing more interesting to talk about regarding King's Quest at the moment. We've had a million threads exactly like this one. Sometimes, I suppose, there just isn't anything more to say about King's Quest. Many of us have been having these same discussions for over a decade now. What do you like about King's Quest? What is your favorite King's Quest? What was the first King's Quest you played? Who is your favorite King's Quest character? Who is your favorite King's Quest villain? What is your favorite King's Quest inventory item?

I know you're trying to stimulate some kind of conversation, but we're really going to have to dig deeper here. Maybe - what is your favorite background from a King's Quest game? Discussing the art, both AGI, SCI and VGA would be cool. What are some of your favorite musical themes from King's Quest?

I don't know. We've pretty much scraped the bottom of the barrel as far as King's Quest discussions.

Bt

When a series has been pretty much dead for 14 years, it leaves little to talk about. As you said we've gone over tons of stuff--favorite characters, villains, favorite worlds, favorite costumes, etc. Yes, I am just trying to spark some POSITIVE conversation here. We've been down this road with this sort of topic but I figured it was better than nothing.

I could make a topic about that, if it isn't considered discussing minutia.

This is just one small reason why I do want TT's KQ to happen. For better or for worse, if the game is good or if it is bad, it will still give us something NEW to talk about, discuss, debate, etc. For good or ill, it will inject life into the community and the series.

MusicallyInspired

05/20/2012, 11:00 am

A fair point. But you'll find a difference of opinion because everybody won't share yours. That being, namely, one might rather have nothing to talk about than to get a bad KQ game. We don't NEED something to talk about. Some of us just WANT something to talk about.

BagginsKQ

05/20/2012, 01:25 pm

King Graham's FAB-ulous outfit!!
You mean the one that Simpleton from the Golden Goose wore back in a book published the early 1900's?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Simpleton_takes_The_Golden_Goose_to_the_inn_-_Project_Gutenberg_eText_15661.jpg

Chyron8472

05/20/2012, 02:28 pm

and again, having played KQ4 first, I always imagine Graham's hat as being green-ish. When it appears blue in some games, it looks weird to me.

MusicallyInspired

05/20/2012, 02:48 pm

That may have only been because of the 16-colour limitation and the attempt to add as much colour variety as possible. Maybe.

BagginsKQ

05/20/2012, 06:18 pm

Depending on the sprite it is green or light blue in KQ4 (and both, but mostly blue)... Some might describe it as 'marbled'. (or if you are color blind it might appear all green)...

The sprite on the table next to the throne is 'light blue'. The small sprite as it flies through the air is 'light blue'. It's 'light blue' as it sits ont he ground from a distance.

The closeup as it spins through the air is mostly light blue, with an slight shaded edge of green. The closeup while sits on the ground is 'light blue' with slight shaded edges in green.

It was definitely light blue in the early games, KQ1, KQ2, and KQ3.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100821173823/kingsquest/images/8/84/GrahamKQ4closeup2.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100821133145/kingsquest/images/4/45/GrahamKQ4closeup.png

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/b/bf/AdventurecapKQ4.png

But ya, the sprites are mostly 'light blue' in KQ4, with some 'green' shading.

Chyron8472

05/20/2012, 06:50 pm

the hat is cyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyan) and green in those screenshots.
from wikipedia
In reference to the visible spectrum cyan is used to refer to the color obtained by mixing equal amounts of green and blue light or the removal of red from white light The window border is blue in the top image. So, when people look at those screenies and say that his hat is blue, I don't know how they can be so mistaken.

Also, to go from cyan (or blue-green) to simply blue in other games, again usually throws me off--especially in such as the closeup shots in KQ5 and KQ6. You can't say that the 16 color palette is the reason his hat is cyan because, as I pointed out, the window border is blue while his hat is not.

BagginsKQ

05/20/2012, 07:10 pm

Cyan is in the 'blue/green' range... Actually comes from a greek word when translated means; transliterated: kýanos, meaning "dark blue substance".

It's pretty much one of the only two options for 'light' blue in 16 color pallete. True light blue usually gets used for other things onscreen like the sky or water shading.

If you are slightly color blind it might look 'greener' to you, than towards the blue spectrum...

Infact, cyan has been used on Graham's hat since the early games, because light blue was used for water or sky instead.

Also the window border, is not even the same shade used in the 256 color games (or at least the dominate color)! They use a lighter powder blue, along with several other shades lighter and darker (depends on the game)...! Also those two shades of blue in the border are the ones you generally find in the sky or water in the 16-color KQ games!

This is about as early of a Graham you can go for as far as in the Artwork, from the very first release of King's Quest;
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100715213052/kingsquest/images/e/ee/GrahamKQ1IBM.jpghttp://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100724124140/kingsquest/images/5/5c/Edwardthrone.jpg

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100724124937/kingsquest/images/1/14/RoyalPalace.jpg

Also to say that 'cyan' is 'greenish' could be almost as mistaken as saying that it is true 'bluish' as well! It's certainly lighter than both blue, and lighter than green... But if you are comparing to other standard colors in the 16 color pallete... It certainly looks more like a 'light blue', than it does to a 'light green'... This is probably the reason why it was historically called 'cyan blue', rather than 'cyan green'.

It's also probably why that particular shade of 'cyan' is also in modern usage called 'aqua', which literally means "blue".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_(color))

The words "aqua" and "cyan" are used interchangeably in computer graphics, and especially web design, to refer to the subtractive primary color "electric cyan". Traditionally that color, defined as #00FFFF in hex, or (0,255,255) in RGB, is called "cyan", but X11 color names introduced the alternative name "aqua". Later, W3C popularized the name by using it in the named color palette of HTML 3.2 specifications.

http://www.awitness.org/delphi_pascal_tutorial/source3/graphics/16_color_palette.gif

Funny thing is 'light blue' is up to interpretation! As it comes in different shades, tints, tones and hues!
https://encrypted.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=light%20blue&biw=1366&bih=623&sei=Jra5T-biBoaqiAL-v9zuBg

Chyron8472

05/20/2012, 07:20 pm

Blue is blue. Powder blue, light blue, dark blue... are shades of blue. Cyan in a 16 color palette is blue-green, which is equally as green as it is blue, therefore the hat in those images has green in it and and blue-green (cyan). No, I am not color blind. At all.

My point is this:

This hat color:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155842/kingsquest/images/8/8e/Graham.png

is not remotely at all like this hat color:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100821173823/kingsquest/images/8/84/GrahamKQ4closeup2.png

They are not obligated to use a different color for his hat than the sea or sky.

BagginsKQ

05/20/2012, 07:46 pm

If you want to go more into the etymology of blue, Cyan can be subcategorized under 'blue'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue

In Modern English, "blue" is one of the basic colour terms, and one of the seven spectral colours, intermediate between violet (purple) and cyan. It comprises a considerable number of identifiable subcategories that can be identified with descriptive terms like navy blue (a dark blue), cyan blue (or "blue-green", on the boundary to the green range), or sky blue (azure).

So ya 'cyan' can be be a subcategory of blue (use of the term 'aqua), or in its own category!

There is actually a "green-blue" in some color lists, that actually looks more 'green' than than blue. It its often listed under "cyan' category as one of the variant shades, tints, hues, or tones...

They are not obligated to use a different color for his hat than the sea or sky.

Nah in the early games, if they used the same color as the sea or sky, Graham would turn invisible, or rather his hat and pants would (as the sky was pretty prominent part of the background (as Graham walks towards/through it to reach distant screens), and also lakes/oceans were everywhere)! Infact, there is an article that talks about designers trying to avoid using colors on animated sprites that are used in background to avoid that phenomena as best as possible... To make contrast.

Case in point, the problem actually occurs in KQ2, because the sand on the beach is the same shade as Graham's skin (they just reused the sprite form KQ1)! So Graham literally can turn invisible in certan spots... Although as his skin areas are generally surrounded by his animated clothes or have contrast with other details like his eyes, its not nearly as bad as a problem, as they give the illusion of a border around the sprite. However, even still, if he stands still, parts of his body, especially his arms 'disappear'.

Infact, its probably because of the need to have contrast with background elements, that Gwydion has such garrish color choice of cyan/magenta in KQ3! They start avoiding the issue somewhat, when they started adding dithering, and sprites with more details/colors/shading in Sci era.

Have you realized that almost every playable character sprites (or characters who would follow your player) in the early KQ games (or other Sierra AGI games in general) either wore 'cyan', or one of the other unused colors (lots of magenta, blacks, whites, and greys). Or NPC sprites were placed in screens and and on paths in which they wouldn't pass over a element on the screen with a matching color. So there was always contrast (no disappearing sprites).

It seems in other games, the background colors were chosen carefully to keep contrast. For example in PQ because the police uniform and sonny's denim pants use a regular blue, the backgrounds tend to use alot contrasting colors. Including many buildings that are 'cyan' or 'magenta'! Plus black and grey 'blacktop/concrete'. Almost the reverse of what was done in the early KQ games color choices.

Blackthorne519

05/21/2012, 04:02 am

This is one of the most pedantic and nerderific conversations I have been privvy to! Maybe he has multiple hats; dude is a king, after all. I have several very similar hats, all in different colors.

Anyway, carry on lads! The debate over blue/green/cyan rages on!

Bt

MusicallyInspired

05/21/2012, 06:55 am

The hat is clearly blue. If it weren't for that bit of green shading in there because of the 16-colour limitation it would be all blue and you wouldn't be having this ridiculous argument, hence why they made the hat entirely blue once they switched to 256 colours.

It wasn't until MOE that his hat finally turned green. :P And that was only because of texture colour limitations. In-game, anyway. The KQ2 box art had him with a green hat and green tights.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111029232018/highfantasy/images/c/c1/GrahampaintingMoE.JPG

BagginsKQ

05/21/2012, 07:29 am

Well, to be fair, his hat was green on the KQ2 box... But he also had a rather swarthy complexion too!

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155911/kingsquest/images/d/da/Kq2boxgraham.JPG

...and the only other time it was done in green intentionally was on the King's Quest Companion 2nd Edition cover (he had blue on the first edition cover btw);

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100818160355/kingsquest/images/3/35/GrahamKQC2ndcover.jpg

Of course on the Amiga KQ6 (which had color limitations);

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110801064255/kingsquest/images/7/7c/GrahamKQ6amiga.png

Course how about a black hat?

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155337/kingsquest/images/4/48/Grahamheadnes.PNG

Or a white with purple?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155542/kingsquest/images/d/d5/Grahamsms2.PNG

Or tan?
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110160015/kingsquest/images/4/43/Grahamkos.PNG

Hey, Graham can look stylish in any color?

And that was only because of texture colour limitations.
Ya, this this may be true.

A little explanation is needed, based what Mark Seibert has said. Basically each area in the game has a limited color pallete. There are basically two sets of color palletes going on, the one used for the game world, and the one used for character models (Connor may or may not have his own pallete as well thus why he can change into various armor types in every world). Basically this is why Daventry is made up of alot grey, dark, greens, blues and some browns.

Barrens is made up of alot reds, oranges, yellows, and browns, etc.

Frozen reaches lots of shades of blue, white, grey, etc.

However, I'm not entirely sure this excuse works for Graham's mugshot! Because in the same room of the castle, and other locations are clearly textures that have blue in them. Blue in several shades that would have worked for Graham's hat. I'll get you screenshots of the examples later. Which makes me think they actually knowingly chose to 'tweek his colors' intentionally. It's also not a straight color 'reverse' (white becomes black, other colors turn into other colors, etc), because his shirt or face complexion didn't change!

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/0/09/Bluebanner.png

On the other hand, I suppose maybe the two pictures (both Graham and Valanice) may have been put on the character model pallete instead of the level color pallete (Graham after all is a moveable/animated feature, as the painting is on a wall that can be moved)... Perhaps the character model pallete had its own limitations in that that particular level (but not sure why as there aren't that many animated character models in Daventry) I'm not sure the stone characters count as 'character models', unless designers intentionally chose to use the separate character model pallete for them (in the Kingdom of Daventry level, at least the Wizard, who is half stone, would have used the character pallete)...

MusicallyInspired

05/21/2012, 07:48 am

Well, to be fair, his hat was green on the KQ2 box...

I said exactly that.

BagginsKQ

05/21/2012, 08:05 am

Sure, but I went much further than KQ2 box, ;).

Hmm, anyone played Amiga KQ5? What does the limited color pallete do Graham's sprites in that game?

Edit: found some (hope ATMachine doesn't mind hot linking);

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/ATMachine/Amiga/kq5amiga5.png

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/ATMachine/Amiga/kq5amiga12.png

Actually doesn't look like it was affected too badly (other than being 'light blue' and 'dark blue' depending on those scenes)... Not sure if his sprite color changes depending on the background colors of the area you are in the game (Like Alexander's sprite does in KQ6 Amiga).

Jennifer

05/23/2012, 10:33 am

Actually doesn't look like it was affected too badly (other than being 'light blue' and 'dark blue' depending on those scenes)... Not sure if his sprite color changes depending on the background colors of the area you are in the game (Like Alexander's sprite does in KQ6 Amiga).
Probably not. The Amiga version of King's Quest VI was created by Revolution and used a completely different engine (it used Revolution's Virtual Theatre instead of Sierra's SCI).

BagginsKQ

05/23/2012, 10:55 am

Right, however KQ6 has an overall better use of colors on backgrounds and runs better than the sci ports. its actually better designed than the sci ports.

techie775

05/23/2012, 01:19 pm

You mean the one that Simpleton from the Golden Goose wore back in a book published the early 1900's?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Simpleton_takes_The_Golden_Goose_to_the_inn_-_Project_Gutenberg_eText_15661.jpg

Looking at the axe, is graham finally fed up with Cedric (represented by the goose)?

BagginsKQ

05/24/2012, 12:06 pm

Well actually, he found the goose inside of the trunk of a tree, after he cut it down. Simpleton like his brothers (who died violently before) him are lumberjacks IIRC.

gamingafter40

05/24/2012, 12:30 pm

I have to admit that what usually drew me to the King's Quest games back in the day was the technology Sierra was developing.

I had been trying to work out a way to do similar 3-D animation on an 8-bit computer, where a character could travel behind and in front of objects based on vertical positioning, but the way I was approaching it was way too CPU-heavy, redrawing items repeatedly within the horizontal region where animation was happening. Sierra's AGI engine was a much more elegant solution, using an additional layer of background data to drive the masking and taking advantage of the PCjr's additional memory and color palette to make that happen. I played through KQ II the first time mostly because I wanted to see how the technology worked; the ability to walk up a spiral staircase was really amazing at the time.

I skipped over KQ III and KQ IV, favoring Police Quest III and Space Quest III at the time. Then I was drawn back into the series with KQ V, twice actually, as I bought it on floppy for the sake of VGA graphics and again on CD (I think there was an upgrade option available) to hear the voices. I played KQ VI primarily because of the improved voice casting, the CG intro, and the hi-res character portraits in the Windows version.

Beyond the cutting-edge technology at the time these games were released, and having gone back later to play through the whole series, I think what I like most about King's Quest is its grounding in shared pop mythology, and the player's ability in most of the games to just explore the world and see who lives there before we start tackling any of the puzzles. The alternate solutions were also appreciated, when available, and yes, I did get a kick out of the death animations. AGI Graham's poor little face was always charming:

o o
_O_

BagginsKQ

05/27/2012, 08:28 am

It wasn't until MOE that his hat finally turned green. :P And that was only because of texture colour limitations. In-game, anyway.

From one of the rumors, someone said that the file was the regular blue hat version of the artwork from the KQ6. For Graham, and it was simply changed color ingame...

Turns out this isn't true... The extracted bmp file, definitely has the green hat. Interesting. Still as discussed I'm not sure if this is truly due to texture colour limitations because correct blue appears elsewhere in the castle see the flag/tapestries.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/0/0b/Royals.png

MusicallyInspired

05/27/2012, 10:26 am

It still makes sense. Any colour from the palette can fit into the limitations, but you can only have a palette of a certain size. It may very well have been that they couldn't have 5 or 6 different hues each with the same number of shades as 3 or 4 colour hues would have. Or maybe it was a conscious decision to make it look like a stylistic tapestry or something.

BagginsKQ

05/27/2012, 11:58 am

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/6/63/Grahammodify.PNG

Heh I think this proves there is no texture limitation in that room! It seems that blue hat graham would have been easy to include (with no more color loss than was lost in KQ6 itself)!

I did a simple modification to the bmp file. I took the KQ6 artwork from the Omnipedia and shrunk it down a bit and put it over the KQ8 Graham, in the ROYALS.BMP file. Making sure to leave the black space below the images, and correct division between the two images.

Now, call this a blind experiment, as I know nothing about programming. But I discovered that the way that KQ8 accesses BMP files directly. I thought this might work! It did!

Now just think, if it was this simple to edit! Anyone could practically create new textures for the game! As long as they remain in the general size limitations!

Frankly, if someone wants to 'fix' their Graham! I'll try to upload my modified file if anyone is interested! You just need to copy the file into the CDaventry, 8Bit (trivia wise the 8 in 8bit and 8gui folders appears to be a reference to KQ8 bitmaps, and KQ8 graphical user interface, rather than '8bit' technology) folder.

Hey this is fun;

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/5/50/Simpltongraham.PNG

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/d/d2/Grahamlego.PNG

MusicallyInspired

05/27/2012, 02:01 pm

Compare those replacements with the original ones. There are for more shades of colour in the originals than in those alternate ones, hence my previous point.

Either way, it could be that they just wanted it that way for stylistic purposes.

BagginsKQ

05/27/2012, 02:10 pm

I think they did it for stylistic purposes, intentionally.

The trick would be change the green shades back to blue in the original file, and find out how that works....

StinkomanFan

05/31/2012, 07:47 pm

Bump? I personally liked what I've seen in the King's Quest games as silliness.
Use Pot on self? Genie pops out and seals you in there.
Use Pot on Witch? Trap her for 500 years and steal her stuff. Just because.
Those Retsupurae guys make me wanna play these just for the sake of seeing how much of a loser the hero will be. Maybe then you could pop out a Dark Seed 3?

Farlander

06/01/2012, 06:31 am

I'll be in minority here, and will probably get a lot of flak from this, but, honestly, I can't say that anything in King's Quest really appeals to me. And I think it's the worst of the Sierra Quest lines. I know its historical relevance, and the nostalgia factor also kicks in, but, the series is just... dull and hasn't aged well at all. I really love AGDI's King's Quest II+, and that's because it has what other King's Quest games (well, except for King's Quest VI and III) don't have - an interesting storyline, a cool world and characters with a sense of history, and sensible puzzles. King's Quest I, II and IV is just a mash-up of random fairy tales, situations and puzzles, V and VII are a real total mess design-wise and script-wise, and, honestly, I enjoy Mask of Eternity more than any of those games (it's certainly just a mediocre action/adventure game, but I had more fun with it than I had with any other KQ game... except, again, VI and III).

To me, the King's Quest series is more of a technological wonder. And the problem with technological wonders - they don't always make good games. Just look at Crysis, for one of the more modern examples. Maybe the reason why I actually like III and VI is because, by the time they were in development, the creators got comfortable enough with the technology they could actually properly design the games now.

So, yeah, I think the series is pretty much a mess that still hinges on the nostalgia factor. Space Quest, Quest for Glory, Conquests and other Sierra game series - they deserve a sequel much more than King's Quest does. And King's Quest... the only thing that I care about TellTale's King's Quest is for it to be a classic adventure game.

Maybe I am too harsh on the series. It's not that there aren't good things about KQI, II, IV, V, VII (and, well, I'll put MoE on the list too since it isn't exactly a great game), but I think they all need an AGDI KQII+ treatment. Because, if you think about it, KQII+ is still what KQII is - a collection of fairy tales and stories, but instead of just being meshed up into one garble, it got carefully interconnected and spun in an interesting way. That's also what KQVI has done and, to a degree, KQIII. And I guess this is a factor that actually appeals to me in King's Quest (yay, writing this post made me realize what appeals to me in KQ! :D ), it's just that it's not realized to its full potential in most of the games in the series. So, yeah, this factor is something TellTale should keep in their new KQ game and is definitely something that can give KQ (depending on how well you do it, because I'm still not going to go easy on the KQ series :p ) its style and substance.

BagginsKQ

06/01/2012, 07:24 am

Anakin Skywalker

06/01/2012, 07:26 am

You call III a good story, and condemn 4?

Seriously... There isn't much story in III, even if you count the manual... I suppose it picks up once you see the oracle..., and talk to the gnome, and Rosella... Who fills on on some backstory... Of course 'listen in' on the animals who also make up most of the game's backstory... But general interaction was simply a mish mash of fairy tales really... Just like the previous two.

But KQ4 actually has probably one of the most detailed scripts in the entire series, and definable characters with actual motives in the land for the most part... The villain actually has quite a bit of dialogue (manannan didn't do much except leer at you and punish you), plus the 'saving your father' and "genesta" plotline brought alot of urgency to the game.

KQ4 is probably among the best of the games. It has a pretty much coherent story which is neither too simple nor too overly complex; It has a great structure with two interwined storylines, the sense of urgency you mentioned (as well as a sense of foreboding/horror in the night segments). It's a well put together game with a good level of depth, especially for the genre and for 1988.

BagginsKQ

06/01/2012, 07:30 am

Ya, Edgar was so well thought out... His interactions and character development up to the point he frees you, and then later asks for Rosella's hand... It develops perfectly!

They even managed to toss in a bad ending, with you marrying Edgar!

I also like if you choose to interact with the dwarves besides cleaning, as in actually talk to them, that Rosella is willing to open up to them about her plight, and they even manage to offer her some emotional support!

StinkomanFan

06/01/2012, 07:33 am

I hope this one will have a memorable line like in the last two.
"Alexander pulls out his Magic Map."
"LOOK OUT GRAHAM, IT'S A POOOOOOIIIISONOUS SNAKE!"

Farlander

06/01/2012, 07:44 am

Okay, I have to confess, now that I think about it - when I think of KQIII, I, again, think of AGDI's remake which is still fresh in my mind, not the original game... so... yeah. Still, doesn't change my opinion on other games, and I have to replay the original KQIII.

Anakin Skywalker

06/01/2012, 07:45 am

Blackthorne519

06/01/2012, 01:10 pm

Anakin Skywalker

06/01/2012, 03:15 pm

I appreciate KQ1 and 2 from their place and time, but I don't see why the whole fairy tale land idea couldn't be translated into a game today, without having to become the "Dark and Dramatic" mess that a lot of stories are today.

Bt

Amen. You don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. KQ1 and 2 were revolutionary at their time and they were as advanced storywise as they could be with the technology and space available, and seeing how deep KQ became later, it's obvious if Roberta had the technology in 1983/1985, KQ wouldn't have been so "random". You can have the "fairy tale land" idea and still have it be a family experience, and have a coherent, solid story with it. People dismiss fairy tales today because they're so light and escapist--but I think that is their charm. KQ4-6 are examples of having fairy tale lands without it being overly dark and dramatic, or tied in with overarching storylines.

BagginsKQ

06/01/2012, 04:08 pm

From one of my favorite reviews/editorials in Interaction Magazine;
"I first experienced computer gaming through her early work...so I sort of grew up on her style of adventure game design. She has a clean and crisp style of design that states the goals of the game clearly and makes your challenges clear, which I find refreshing...I really do think "King's Quest I" was the finest adventure game ever written, and the most fun to play...I also liked "King's Quest II" a lot. I think both of these games are great examples of the kind of adventure games that I like to play and that started the whole adventure game following in the first place. "King's Quest I" and "King's Quest II" are unlike most computer games written nowadays. Frankly, they don't feature the deep, complex plots of games like "Police Quest III" and "Conquests of the Longbow". Instead, these games are basically treasure hunts with lots of fun puzzles thrown in to add challenge. They feature simple goals -- you know what it takes to win the contest with the computer. For me, adventure games have represented a pleasant diversion -- something I could boot up and get lost in for a few hours at the end of a long day. I view them the same way some people review Rubics Cube or a crossword puzzle. I want simple goals -- something I can jump into the middle of and go...I want hard puzzles -- real mind benders -- so that when I solve one I can sit smugly... with a sense of satisfaction. This straight forward "goals and puzzles" approach to adventuring represents the oldest and purest approach to the art form. Everyone at Sierra has their opinion about how adventure games should work, of course, but as for me, give me the old-time adventuring. Give me the early "King's Quests."-John Williams, Interaction Magazine, Spring 1992.

Blackthorne519

06/02/2012, 06:26 am

Schproing! I like that quote. He nails it.

Bt

Chyron8472

06/02/2012, 08:06 am

There's something to be said for tying the puzzles together with an interesting story--a la KQ5 and 6.

Although, King's Quest is more about the puzzles and exploration than the story (I'm looking at you, Telltale!) but having a good story to go with it adds to the fun.

I liked the AGDI and IA remakes. Looking back, I do think AGDI did some non-KQ things to their games (like instantly transforming Possum into a young woman). I can also understand why people might be annoyed with The Father, but I'm not.

Also, for what feels like the hundredth time, I refuse to ever play The Silver Lining. For one thing, the graphics look fan-made to me; but primarily, it's because I read on these forums that in TSL Manannan is related to Valanice, which is completely preposterous and angers me every time I think about it.

BagginsKQ

06/02/2012, 08:19 am

Well Chyron it might be worse depending on ones perspective (she may not be a blood relation, but a former member of the Black Cloaks and her reference to "father" may be a reference to her position in The Family);

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_Family_(unofficial)

The Family is an organization within the Black Cloak Society (unofficial)[1] The 'father' is a position within the Family. Those under the father are known as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Manannan (unofficial) would give anything for their father’s love. The world does not suspect that the Society has reformed, their father strikes when the world is least prepared.[2] There are apparently several fathers and mothers in the organization. The Family asks for complete commitment. It is their way: one must give and give to their brothers and sisters, to their mothers and fathers.”[3]

The Witch of the Dark Forest (unofficial) and Lucreto (unofficial) searched out for members of the Family in order to join the Black Cloak Society. They became initiates within the Family.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_Father_(unofficial)

"The 'father' is a position within The Family (unofficial), a suborganization within the Black Cloak Society (unofficial). Those under the father are known as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Manannan (unofficial) would give anything for their father’s love. The world does not suspect that the Society has reformed, their father strikes when the world is least prepared.[1] There are apparently several fathers and mothers in the organization. The Family asks for complete commitment. It is their way: one must give and give to their brothers and sisters, to their mothers and fathers, proving they are part of the Family.”[2]" (see The Four Winds)

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cloak_Society_(unofficial)

Who knows, its way too complicated...

Although from my perspective, both teams have basically done much the same things to the characters and the universe... AGDI just got to the warping first...

The evil society thing was hardly touched on in the official games, and wasn't even considered that important. The problem is every fan fiction writer under the son, decided to go with it... This goes back to even before AGDI got aroudn to it! Cassima's Quest a fan fiction story from back in 1997 or so, even has its own interpretation of 'the father' and 'mother' idea...! As in the first member of the Black Cloak society, who had been cursed, to form the society! The father and mother were the parents of Manannan, Hagatha, and Mordack! Shadrack was their uncle... It was shadrack who made the curse in the first place. :P

Chyron8472

06/02/2012, 08:37 am

BagginsKQ

06/02/2012, 08:55 am

To me, The Father exists only to explain why all these crazy things keep happening to the royal family. No more, no less.

In a way, it makes more sense when one tries to say that their need to go on all these quests is caused by a deliberate act rather than coincidental. That's why I don't hate him. His action makes somewhat sense to the story. (Seriously--Alexander only met Cassima once, for a few minutes, and can't stop thinking about her.)

In my opinion that's a horrible 'fan fiction' idea (which has been a fan fiction idea since nearly the late 90s, and AGDI reused the idea)... Why does everything need to be 'tied together'? Why must their be a crazy organization, connected to everything? It's incredibly cheesy. Why must everything be made complicated?

It seems almost hypocritical for someone to praise one fan group doing it, while condemning another fan group for doing it! I'm personally not a fan of being done in general.

In anycase, did you know that Lucreto was the original official KQ character to be given the title The Father? Within KQ8? He was only The Father in the spiritual sense, in that Satan was also considered 'The Father of Lies', aka, 'your father, the devil'.

Chyron8472

06/02/2012, 09:11 am

In my opinion that's a horrible 'fan fiction' idea (which has been a fan fiction idea since nearly the late 90s, and AGDI reused the idea)... Why does everything need to be 'tied together'? Why must their be a crazy organization, connected to everything? It's incredibly cheesy. Why must everything be made complicated?When I think of The Father, I don't think of the Society of the Black Cloak. I think of the curse. The curse that makes King Graham have a heart attack mere seconds after reuniting with his son and cause Alexander to obsess over a woman he briefly only met once.

In anycase, did you know that Lucreto was the original official KQ character to be given the title The Father? Within MoE?Fixed.

I have not played MoE. I did watch a Let's Play of it, but I don't remember that part.

BagginsKQ

06/02/2012, 09:15 am

When I think of The Father, I don't think of the Society of the Black Cloak. I think of the curse. The curse that makes King Graham have a heart attack mere seconds after reuniting with his son and cause Alexander to obsess over a woman he briefly only met once.

Which is just as freaking silly. KQ4 explains the heart attack well enough. It was the stress of nearly losing his daughter and kingdom to the dragon over the years. As well as the joy of the return of his children... There is no reason to add 'superstition' or 'magic' to the explanation... Its way to complicated...

Also remember, Graham obssessed over a women he only saw once... Just as much... No need to 'explain' that as the 'Fathers' doing It's very silly... However, on the other end Valancie fell for Graham at first sight, and married at the same time! Oh let's not forget, even Edward obsessed over Dahlia whome he only saw once... Although I suppose in that situation it can be argued, he was bewitched by her... According to the narration in KQ4, even Rosella strongly thought about running away with Edgar (after seeing his human side for the first time), but saving her father was too important for her to go through with that idea... Of course Obviously, Edgar fell for her when he first saw her... Let's also not forget, Cassima wasn't cursed, but she fell for Alexander at first sight as well!

Love at first sight is a classic fairy tale trope... It doesn't need a real world explanation, nor a magical one...

But ugh, both AGDI and TSL use the same idea explain why or how Graham got together with Valancie :p... Manipulation by the Black Cloak Society... (in both cases the Society manipulated the Magic Mirror to show Graham a vision, so he'd be drawn to Kolyma). They also use it to explain why Edgar and Rosella were brought together, they both explain why Cassima and Alexander were brought together, in their machinations for world dominance... As do half the fan fiction stories that use the Society out there, and have their own 'fathers' and 'mothers', and whatever crap....
Fixed.

I have not played MoE. I did watch a Let's Play of it, but I don't remember that part.

It's does not need to be 'fixed'. The game is known as KQ8. Even in the files, there are references to the game being "8" (as in folders 8bit which hold the 16-bit bitmap ".bmp" artwork, and the 8gui, which hold the graphic user interface files), and the official Sierra patches were KQ8Patch1.exe, and KQ8Patch2.exe made after the game's release. Not to mention Activision now calling it KQ8... Even Sierra's own Interaction Magazine called it KQ8 after its release...

Even Roberta and Ken William to this day, call it King's Quest 8. She nearly always referred to it as KQ8 in interviews after the game's release...

Anakin Skywalker

06/02/2012, 09:17 am

If you're going to have the Black Cloak Society be a facet of a KQ game, there are several better ways to go about it:
-There is no overarching thing tying them together outside of them being a group of evil individuals. There is no prophecy and not everything that ever happened (for example, Graham having a heart attack) was the result of a BCS member. The Royal Family (and Connor) just happens to foil the BCS' goals at every turn...Not because of fate or destiny or a prophecy. Just pure coincidence because The Royal Family are the good guys.
-The BCS isn't a tightly bound organization with a "Father", more like just a loose, huge association of people with similar motivations, whose goals perhaps overlap at certain times. They don't always talk about their individual plots with each other either--They could scheme to "one up" the other. A very loose confederation. Again, nothing to do with any prophecies. Their history does not need explaining, they don't have any ties to the Royal Family except in that the Royal Family has just gotten in the way several times.
-The BCS doesn't include every villain from the series, only Alhazred, Mordack and, Manannan. Manannan didn't steal Alex for any particular reason except that he was a wicked cruel bastard. The other villains are just plain old fashioned evil people who have no tie to any other bad guy and whose only aim/motivation is pure and simple to be evil/get power/etc. No complexities.

You don't want to turn the Black Cloak Society into the "Starcon" of the KQ series---an albatross around the series, restricting possible stories.

BagginsKQ

06/02/2012, 09:41 am

The only way I want to see Black Cloak Society tackled again, if it is tackled in an official game;

Is to reveal Shadrack. His character should be limited to that game, and that game only, and defeated... If he makes token references to characters/events from previous games, it should only be to Mordack, and Abdul Alhazred alone. As that is the limits of his references in KQ6.

Manannan is loose possible reference, since Shadrack probably would have known him through his meetings iwth Mordack, as Manannan the cat was living on the island with him, and its likely that Abdul Alhazred knew about Manannan as well. But still those references should be limited.

Shadrack should have his own plot, that a hero would foil... In a nice stand alone sort of way, with actual closure (no open ended cliffhangers).

In no way do I want to see a retread of 'every villain' in the series is a member of the Black Cloaks... It might even be interesting if Mordack isn't a member... That the organization is seperate entity but have had interactions with the dark Wizard in the past....

Also Shadrack need not be the 'leader of the organization'.... But just an equal to people like Abdul Alhazred. A twist would be that Abdul actually was the leader!

Anakin Skywalker

06/02/2012, 09:47 am

Also Shadrack need not be the 'leader of the organization'.... But just an equal to people like Abdul Alhazred. A twist would be that Abdul actually was the leader!

No surprise twists like that. Let's not go into M. Night Shmyalan territory.

BagginsKQ

06/02/2012, 09:54 am

Would it really be a surprise? I mean lets face it. Abdul is pretty much the only Black Cloak we have seen plotting... KQ6 sort of places him as an superior to Shadrack, and Shadrack sort of an advisor to him (its left somewhat vague enough that Shadrack may not even be a member)... It was the KQ Companion that sort of placed them as equals (with maybe Shadrack being a little more involved), and definitely specified Shadrack as a member of the society (Mordack's membership or not is vague in both sources however, he isn't specified either way).

In a future official game, we could hear from Shadrack about how the 'society collapsed' after their leader Abdul was defeated, and captured! Thus you get rid of any chance of a complicated, bring out a "Black Cloak' of the week style plots... Shadrack will be left to stand on his own ground, as an unaffiliated villain!

doom saber

06/02/2012, 01:13 pm

To me, The Father exists only to explain why all these crazy things keep happening to the royal family. No more, no less.

In a way, it makes more sense when one tries to say that their need to go on all these quests is caused by a deliberate act rather than coincidental. That's why I don't hate him. His action makes somewhat sense to the story. (Seriously--Alexander only met Cassima once, for a few minutes, and can't stop thinking about her.)

For TSL to do what I previously mentioned (*grrr*) makes no sense, adds nothing interesting to the canon titles, and has no reason to exist other than to complicate things that shouldn't be complicated.

Considering that Alexander lived a very sheltered life, it is possible for him to be smitten and stalker obsessed over Cassima after just one meeting. The KQ games are also fairytale games, so it is possible. In fairytales, it is common for two characters fall in love quickly. For instance, the prince married Cinderella after realizing the glass slipper belongs to her; they only met once before.

I have a harder time believing that Alexander can swim.

doom saber

06/02/2012, 01:34 pm

I want to see the series go back to its fairytale roots. If one thinks about it, most of the KQ games are strongly based on fairy tales and popular movies. Part 6 is heavily inspired by Aladdin whereas part 4 is partly inspired by "The Wizard of Oz".

BagginsKQ

06/02/2012, 01:45 pm

Considering that Alexander lived a very sheltered life, it is possible for him to be smitten and stalker obsessed over Cassima after just one meeting. The KQ games are also fairytale games, so it is possible. In fairytales, it is common for two characters fall in love quickly. For instance, the prince married Cinderella after realizing. the glass slipper belongs to her; they only met once before.

Sure, just look how Alexander looked at the barmaid when he first saw her! Also how he was eying his own sister! Basically he liked her smooth, clean white skin, rosy lips, he has to avert his eyes from her breasts. It basically says he'd basically jump her, if she wasn't her sister... I kid you not, the narrator gets pretty specific! (let's not forget the bit where Rosella tells him to undress in front of him so she can check out his ass! Seriously he was probably working really hard to hide his "rising" shame)

Over the summer she [Rosella] had developed certain assets. She had noticed that these new assets had a very favorable effect on the young men of Daventry.-SNW, pg 6

If you "look" or "feel" Rosella the game says, "Princess Rosella is gorgeous! Why you'd be interested in if she weren't your own sister! Her hair is long silky, and golden. Here eyes are as blue as the bluest sky. Here skin is creamy white. And her BODY... Well!! Embarassed, you clear your throat and avert your eyes."
If you try to "touch rosella", Rosella says, "WATCH IT, FELLA!!"

I have a harder time believing that Alexander can swim.

Well he can... live with it! Maybe he was taught to swim when he was a little baby (many parents do teach their children to swim as infants). It's something babies learn, and it just sticks with them.

Considering he was kidnapped by the lake near the walls of Castle Daventry, maybe that's what his parents were doing at the time, ;). Teaching him how to swim....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZX5injL-NA&feature=related

I'd have a harder time believing an infant would make an effective 'slave', ;)... Why a wizard would put up with a crying baby for a few years, until they are old enough to take care of themselves and his affairs! I'd think a baby would cut into his Wizard time...
I want to see the series go back to its fairytale roots. If one thinks about it, most of the KQ games are strongly based on fairy tales and popular movies. Part 6 is heavily inspired by Aladdin whereas part 4 is partly inspired by "The Wizard of Oz".

KQ5 is a bit of Sin Bad, a bit of Return of the King, a bit of Fantasia, a bit of Merlin/Arthur, a bit of 40 Thieves, a bit of Jack the Giant Killer (evil wizard on a weird twisted island), etc.

doom saber

06/02/2012, 06:55 pm

Sure, just look how Alexander looked at the barmaid when he first saw her! Also how he was eying his own sister! Basically he liked her smooth, clean white skin, rosy lips, he has to avert his eyes from her breasts. It basically says he'd basically jump her, if she wasn't her sister... I kid you not, the narrator gets pretty specific! (let's not forget the bit where Rosella tells him to undress in front of him so she can check out his ass! Seriously he was probably working really hard to hide his "rising" shame)

my point exactly. Alexander had never seen a women before, so it is natural for him to be the obsessive and clingy type when it comes to women.

Well he can... live with it! Maybe he was taught to swim when he was a little baby (many parents do teach their children to swim as infants). It's something babies learn, and it just sticks with them.

Haha! That made me laugh! Lol

Considering he was kidnapped by the lake near the walls of Castle Daventry, maybe that's what his parents were doing at the time, ;). Teaching him how to swim....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZX5injL-NA&feature=related

I can imagine his parents letting him swim in the moat with the moat monster. Haha

I'd have a harder time believing an infant would make an effective 'slave', ;)... Why a wizard would put up with a crying baby for a few years, until they are old enough to take care of themselves and his affairs! I'd think a baby would cut into his Wizard time...

didn't you know that he had the cat take care of and teach Alexander the ways of infant labor? Lol