[Ep1-3, SPOILERS]Team Lilly vs. Team Kenny (merged threads) [Archive]

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Zeekay980

07/05/2012, 06:59 pm

All of Kenny's decisions are about taking risks. A lot of them unnecessary or not that thought out. "We break the lock and see what they're hiding. If those farmers give us trouble we take em' out" or something like that. Let's not forget rushing to rescue his family without even grabbing a weapon or looking for the other brother. Some are sensible risks like we have to leave our safe haven otherwise we starve. Lilly is all about playing it safe. She doesn't want any new people because they are unknowns and extra mouths to feed. She doesn't want to risk leaving a place they know is safe to try to find someplace with more food that might not exist. When given enough suspicions about the farm, she suggests just leaving without snooping around or getting dinner. She also doesn't want to loot the car because it might not be abandoned and she doesn't want to risk fucking up somebody's life. The only time they are reversed is with Larry for obvious reasons. Just my two cents.

CapnJay

07/05/2012, 07:00 pm

Interesting Theory. I can't wait to see more characterization in Episode three

jangjangchang

07/05/2012, 07:03 pm

From these 2 episodes I see Kenny gets shit done and jumps to action.

If Carley and Glenn didn't save Lee and Kenny's group and let them into the drugstore Lilly would of probably died in there due to starvation.

When Kenny got in there he made shit happen and started handing out commands instead of sitting there like Lilly wanted to.

CapnJay

07/05/2012, 07:09 pm

i think thats more an arguement to why lilys better off without larry holding her down

Zeekay980

07/05/2012, 07:11 pm

I almost forgot that if you save Doug, you get alerted to the St. John's before they get to the motel. Lilly wants to stay quiet and let them pass, while Kenny wants to confront them. I'm not saying ones better than the other. You need to have a balance of knowing when to take a risk and when to play it safe. If you do only one you either don't get anything done, or you do something stupid and get yourself killed. Kenny, when he feels threatened, isn't going to find the best way to take a risk. Lilly will find something that works and sticks to it, even if it means starving.

CapnJay

07/05/2012, 07:26 pm

Lee needs to be in charge

Merc

07/05/2012, 07:56 pm

I prefer Kenny's approach. In a situation like that, you need to go big or go home. I'd prefer the risks of the roads over sitting with a thumb up your ass in a motel as the people you've grown to love start going hungry. At least with Kenny, you're out trying to do something.

Sisterofshane

07/05/2012, 08:00 pm

i think thats more an arguement to why lilys better off without larry holding her down

I see Lilly's character being mostly the same, though, even without Larry around. It's clear that most of her decisions she comes up with on her own - it's just apart of her personality. The abandoned car is the perfect example of what Zeekay980 has pointed out - Lilly doesn't like to take risks, even if it is possibly detrimental to the group. I think we are possibly going to see her character harden a bit, now that Larry is dead - with her opening up emotionally to Lee (if you tried to help her save Larry) or becoming mroe antagonistic (if you help Kenny in the meatlocker). One thing's for sure - she is definitely going to see that taking a risk by going to the farm ultimately ended up bad.

It's clear though that Lee needs to step up and take over, because something bad is going to happen if they are ALWAYS taking risks, or if they NEVER take a risk. Clearly we need someone who can take a middle route.

CapnJay

07/05/2012, 08:11 pm

http://motivationalmaker.com/saved_posters/poster_zq0vbpw5qf.jpg

NessaT

07/05/2012, 08:45 pm

Lee needs to be in charge

YES PLEASE! Which is one of the reasons why I made Lee say "he was in charge" and raided the abandoned car to feed the group.

He needs to be seen as being able to do shit and not just take orders from Kenny.

reno2200

07/05/2012, 10:08 pm

I don't mind having Lilly in charge. If you side with her, she really softens up towards you. First and foremost, my Lee is a solid role model to Clem. Lilly puts the group first, whereas Kenny acts on what he thinks is best. It's not about taking risks, it's about taking unnecessary risks. Did checking the barn REALLY achieve anything? Couldn't Kenny have waited a little longer in the meat locker? Why not MAKE A PLAN before running off unarmed after these gun-wielding maniacs who clearly have no qualms with killing the non-undead? Lilly keeps everyone going, Kenny makes a mess, my Lee picks up the pieces.

I think there will be a divide between Team Lilly and Team Kenny (in-game and on these forums, no doubt) and, unless Carley gives me a convincing argument to the contrary, I'm thinking Lilly is the one I should stick with. I think she's going to be ridiculously loyal to and defensive of the group instead of Kenny only caring about his immediate family.

If I had to put money on the cause of the big argument in the Episode 3 trailer, I'd say it's something to do with Kenny's family. If there was anyone able to "screw it up for everyone," it'd have to be Kenny or Duck, right?

Zeruis

07/05/2012, 10:18 pm

CapnJay

07/05/2012, 11:00 pm

kenny seems more panicked then he should if it's just broken down

Merc

07/05/2012, 11:20 pm

picture

Episode 2 Kenny in a nutshell. I'm going to be his Robin.

TheWaltzingBread

07/05/2012, 11:59 pm

Kaapo

07/06/2012, 01:28 am

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 01:35 am

I think that Lee is already in charge on an unspoken level. Not only because he is the player, but because he is constantly looked to for advice by both Lilly and Kenny in episode 2. If Lilly and Kenny set their differences aside, Lee would be in charge without a dought.

The group at this point is ruled by conflict.

Really, what we see here is that there is no leader of the group - there are two people who want things to go their way, and everyone else has to choose who they are going to follow for each specific incident.

This doesn't really do much for making the group more cohesive. In fact, the longer that they continue to allow two people to work against each other, the more the ENTIRE group will become divided.

It would be better at this point for Lilly and Kenny to ALWAYS give the ultimate decision to Lee. Lee would then get EVERY adults opinion, and make the decision he feels best.

Kaapo

07/06/2012, 03:16 am

Really, what we see here is that there is no leader of the group - there are two people who want things to go their way, and everyone else has to choose who they are going to follow for each specific incident.

This doesn't really do much for making the group more cohesive. In fact, the longer that they continue to allow two people to work against each other, the more the ENTIRE group will become divided.

It would be better at this point for Lilly and Kenny to ALWAYS give the ultimate decision to Lee. Lee would then get EVERY adults opinion, and make the decision he feels best.

Another good option would be to have Lilly and Kenny continue their power struggle, and Lee, being the most influential member of the remaining group, could decrease the authority of one by constantly siding with the other, up to the point where whichever one has been receiving Lee's support (Kenny or Lilly) becomes the undisputed leader of the group, and the other falls into line or even leaves the group entirely.

zenstrata

07/06/2012, 04:19 am

kenny is not a dark knight. he's a flipping moron who only cares about his immediate family and is completely disloyal to anyone who doesn't do exactly what he wants all the time.

Lars80

07/06/2012, 04:23 am

CapnJay

07/06/2012, 04:40 am

kenny is not a dark knight. he's a flipping moron who only cares about his immediate family and is completely disloyal to anyone who doesn't do exactly what he wants all the time.

So was the illusive man but he got his own dark knight quote poster so i figured one coward gets it so should another

ZombieGoBoom

07/06/2012, 06:03 am

Kinky John Fowler

07/06/2012, 06:17 am

I don't think Kenny is all about taking risks. Making things happen, sure, but sometimes making things happen is safer than sitting around.

I'm referring to the meat locker scene. Kenny wants to act preemptively to protect the entire group, while Lilly doesn't care about the risks and continues trying to revive her father (not that I blame her for it). The game seems to put a lot of importance on this particular choice so it's safe to assume it's supposed to reflect Kenny's character quite accurately.

In any event I've preferred Kenny's approach to things so far. Lee would probably be the best leader now that Larry doesn't give him trouble anymore, but I think that might make the game less interesting.
Even once you've stopped breathing you have about 5 minutes or so before your body starts to shut down (hence CPR which Lee was trying to do before that idiot decided to step in), so you are looking at 5 mintes at the very least before he would have turned. Kenny acting preemptively did absolutely nothing in terms of favouring the group.

greenj2

07/06/2012, 07:17 am

Kenny can make a fine ally, but you've got to be with him 100% or not at all. Following the events of episode 2, I'm keen to work on my relationship with Lilly and see if she proves to be more reliable.

It was good to see a few dialogue options in episode 2 which allowed Lee to cast himself into more of a leadership role within the group. It's still early days and I'm interested to see how that develops.

Personally, I like to go with my gut on tough decisions and not worry too much about forming and shattering alliances with specific group members. That said, I also prefer to deal with group conflict through reasoning and influence, rather than simply barking orders at people. It's great that both those approaches have been made available throughout the story so far.

Jazzy

07/06/2012, 09:33 am

Even once you've stopped breathing you have about 5 minutes or so before your body starts to shut down (hence CPR which Lee was trying to do before that idiot decided to step in), so you are looking at 5 mintes at the very least before he would have turned. Kenny acting preemptively did absolutely nothing in terms of favouring the group.

We don't know that's when they turn however, it doesn't seem like 5 minutes for the guy at the beginning who turns though it's not clear when exactly he dies. Look at it from the perspective of the characters, they don't know when the transformation occurs, whether you actually have to be dead to turn (for all they know they could all be slowly turning it just speeds up when you die), and hell I doubt Kenny, Lily or Lee even know themselves how long it takes for the body to shut down.

Jazzy

07/06/2012, 09:41 am

Another good option would be to have Lilly and Kenny continue their power struggle, and Lee, being the most influential member of the remaining group, could decrease the authority of one by constantly siding with the other, up to the point where whichever one has been receiving Lee's support (Kenny or Lilly) becomes the undisputed leader of the group, and the other falls into line or even leaves the group entirely.

Why would you want to do that? Neither of them are people I'd want leading the group, Kenny only cares about his family and Lily would have you all starve because you 'have a routine'. Neither of them have shown any leadership qualities and both of them only really care about their own interests and being undisputed leaders just means they get to run roughshod over the group and force their needs upon the others.

Kaapo

07/06/2012, 09:57 am

Why would you want to do that? Neither of them are people I'd want leading the group, Kenny only cares about his family and Lily would have you all starve because you 'have a routine'. Neither of them have shown any leadership qualities and both of them only really care about their own interests and being undisputed leaders just means they get to run roughshod over the group and force their needs upon the others.

I was talking about good options in terms of gameplay. I just have the feeling if Lee becomes the sole leader of the group, he might become distanced from the others and merely start issuing orders and making decisions instead of the close interaction with most group members which has been going on so far. In reality I wouldn't necessarily want either of them leading the group, but in the game I'd definitely take Kenny as the least of 3 evils. And I could imagine if people start thinking of it as a game, so would other Kenny or, respectively, Lilly supporters.

Kaapo

07/06/2012, 10:11 am

Kenny is a coward piece of shit who only cares about his familly.

First he saved Duck and abandoned Shawn.
Then he froze when Danny pointed the gun at Lee and didnt do anything. Lilly came in and saved the day.

Lilly and Carley have proven themself. Kenny? Well, he has a tendency to disappoint when he is really needed.

I just imagine that after abandoning everyone else to follow Kenny. he will leave me behind. Probably sailing off into the sunset with his boat leaving me with a large horde of walkers back at the docks.

Kenny does save you against Danny in the barn, if you help him smash Larry's head. If you don't, he's probably just thinking "This guy just let me down big time, I'm not risking my ass to save him."

TTG could and should have made that decision more balanced, since too many people seem to compare this game to a real life situation, which led the majority of them to try and do CPR on Larry even though in gameplay (i.e. purely logical) terms people would just be happy of his demise and only choosing based on who they want to stay on good terms with, Kenny or Lilly. This means the factors are somewhere between 50% and 75% in favor of siding with Lilly, and after Kenny's actions in the barn the people with a realistic mindset probably decided they don't even want to do another playthrough to see what would follow choosing to side with Kenny.

Aside from this, siding with Kenny causes Lilly to just stand there and watch as Andy's about to push you into the fence, well knowing Clem is standing right next to her and about to see her protector get electrocuted. That's just as bad as if not worse than Kenny leaving you to fend for yourself against Danny.

Lars80

07/06/2012, 10:38 am

Kenny does save you against Danny in the barn, if you help him smash Larry's head. If you don't, he's probably just thinking "This guy just let me down big time, I'm not risking my ass to save him."

TTG could and should have made that decision more balanced, since too many people seem to compare this game to a real life situation, which led the majority of them to try and do CPR on Larry even though in gameplay (i.e. purely logical) terms people would just be happy of his demise and only choosing based on who they want to stay on good terms with, Kenny or Lilly. This means the factors are somewhere between 50% and 75% in favor of siding with Lilly, and after Kenny's actions in the barn the people with a realistic mindset probably decided they don't even want to do another playthrough to see what would follow choosing to side with Kenny.

Aside from this, siding with Kenny causes Lilly to just stand there and watch as Andy's about to push you into the fence, well knowing Clem is standing right next to her and about to see her protector get electrocuted. That's just as bad as if not worse than Kenny leaving you to fend for yourself against Danny.

Well. It goes against my values to smash a mans head while his daughter is trying to revive him. We could have smashed that head after Larry had turned.
This is why Kenny isnt fit to be the leader of the group, and i wont follow him. He got social skills of a 10 year old boy with the asberger syndrome.

1. Kenny sacrificed Shawn to save his own skin.
2. He trashed Larry's head before he had turned.
3. And he failed to help Lee in the barn.

The only people Kenny is willing to help out when shit hits the fan is his own familly. Everyone else is an expendable asset.

Now i am curious to see how Lilly turns out without her father in Ep3. I am guessing she leaves early on and never return.

Xarne

07/06/2012, 11:28 am

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 12:38 pm

We don't know that's when they turn however, it doesn't seem like 5 minutes for the guy at the beginning who turns though it's not clear when exactly he dies. Look at it from the perspective of the characters, they don't know when the transformation occurs, whether you actually have to be dead to turn (for all they know they could all be slowly turning it just speeds up when you die), and hell I doubt Kenny, Lily or Lee even know themselves how long it takes for the body to shut down.

This was my problem with anyone who wants to delay the whole situation. Exactly when does the virus know that someone has "died", and then take over? What if it happens at the moment someone is clinically dead (the moment that the heart and brain stop working to keep the body alive)? If that IS the case, then Larry was about to turn at any moment, and Lee and Lilly were stupidly sitting right next to him, waiting to get the "chomp".

Even one of the devs who was on the "Larry was Alive?" thread confirmed that they INTENDED the "lip movement" to be a questioning moment - was Larry being revived, or was he about to turn into a Walker? Ultimately they SAID that the CPR was working, but we couldn't have known that in the moment.

Trying to save Larry is taking a HUGE risk with very little payoff. This is probably the one time within the game that Kenny is not willing to gamble his life. You can bet the tables would have been turned had it been Katjaa lying there - with Kenny begging you to save her and Lily being the proponent to smash her head in.

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 12:47 pm

its crazy to say 'oh we'll kill him after he turns' dude is what? 6'4 3000lbs?
a little scrawny walker girl can take a man out- how do you think they can escape him in that tiny meat locker? All that would have to happen is him open his eyes, reach out and bite- then its 2 down 3 to go.

Kenny acted too fast. It would have taken 20-30 more seconds to talk to Lily to say her goodbyes or at least try to explain to her what's going to happen if we dont act- one way or the other.

I love how he likes to pull you off to the side and talk about all the shit you two are going to get into over HIS actions. 1st replay I tried to downplay and console him...every playthrough since I berate this shit out of him.
Kenny acts like he's the president and the First Family must survive over all others no matter the cost. Im sure everyone is THINKING the same but like they say, actions speak louder than words and his actions are saying 'I dont care about a goddamn person on this Earth but my family'. People will start to pick up on that real fast

I don't think you could have EVER given Lily enough time to say goodbye. Maybe to convince her that CPR was useless, but her emotional state was pretty much shattered the moment he hit the floor. My grandfather passed away two summers ago, and we had known for months that he was going to leave. My mother is STILL reeling from the impact of his death.

Besides, put yourself in Kenny's shoes - would YOU ever put anyone else over your family? Would your Lee ever put anyone's life ahead of Clementine's safety? Kenny's character flaw is that he reacts without thinking everything through, not that his family is more important to him than anyone else.

TrickyZombie

07/06/2012, 01:51 pm

kenny is not a dark knight. he's a flipping moron who only cares about his immediate family and is completely disloyal to anyone who doesn't do exactly what he wants all the time.

Well said. Kenny isn't worth the time it took to post up that pic, let alone be compared to the Dark Knight himself!

What we need to see is a LEE that's in control of the group. Have his role akin to Rick from the Walking Dead. Put the tough decisions on Lee, and watch the weight of his choices unfold for the better or worse of the group. Have choices affect the development of LEE's character- seeing a man with a broken past determined to protect the new family he forms through the zombie outbreak, or destroy their chances for survival through poor decision-making. Him being Clementine's caretaker adds fire to the already blazing narrative Telltale has put forth.

I don't want to control a character with tough choices, who isn't the leader; I want to have the tough choices as leader, to witness the various ramifications surrounding my group from the choices I made. What made The Walking Dead comics so intruiging to me, was the adversity Rick went through to keep his group alive amidst a zombie epidemic, even though "humanity" turned out to be the biggest threat. Instilling that sense of a being a leader in a savage world, I think, would make The Walking Dead game really shine.

Kinky John Fowler

07/06/2012, 02:22 pm

its crazy to say 'oh we'll kill him after he turns' dude is what? 6'4 3000lbs?
a little scrawny walker girl can take a man out- how do you think they can escape him in that tiny meat locker? All that would have to happen is him open his eyes, reach out and bite- then its 2 down 3 to go.

Kenny acted too fast. It would have taken 20-30 more seconds to talk to Lily to say her goodbyes or at least try to explain to her what's going to happen if we dont act- one way or the other.

I love how he likes to pull you off to the side and talk about all the shit you two are going to get into over HIS actions. 1st replay I tried to downplay and console him...every playthrough since I berate this shit out of him.
Kenny acts like he's the president and the First Family must survive over all others no matter the cost. Im sure everyone is THINKING the same but like they say, actions speak louder than words and his actions are saying 'I dont care about a goddamn person on this Earth but my family'. People will start to pick up on that real fast

I said it in the other thread like but you don't instantly die when your heart stops, your body wont shut down for minutes to come. There was a lot of time to try and revive him/Lilly to say her goodbyes ect. Absolutely no need at all for that daft sod to do what he did.

I've literally never hated a video game character this much before.

jaybreezy

07/06/2012, 02:24 pm

Kinky John Fowler

07/06/2012, 02:26 pm

1. Kenny sacrificed Shawn to save his own skin.

To be fair any father would and SHOULD do this, it's the fact he then ran away afterward and left a poor young man who had helped provide him shelter to die a horrific death. All he needed to do was grab a leg and pull.

jaybreezy

07/06/2012, 02:27 pm

I said it in the other thread like but you don't instantly die when your heart stops, your body wont shut down for minutes to come. There was a lot of time to try and revive him/Lilly to say her goodbyes ect. Absolutely no need at all for that daft sod to do what he did.

I've literally never hated a video game character this much before.

Yes, but how do we know that the virus doesn't do it's thing as soon as the heart stops. Not worth the risk to take a chance an revive him imo. And I'd kill him again if I could... Oh yeah I did.. On the second playthrough.

Kinky John Fowler

07/06/2012, 02:30 pm

I dont know if its as black and white as that.

Kenny decided to do what he did in the freezer to keep the group safe, not doing that would've been the risk imo. So here, Kenny was playing it safe.

Taking the food from the car was playimg it safe because without it the group or someone within the group could starve so again it could be seen as Kenny playing it safe.

Helping Shawn would be keeping the group safe, attacking the guy pointing a gun a Lee would be keeping the group safe, not shouting "are you Friendlies" at a bunch of zombies 100 ft away would be keeping the group safe etc etc. The man is a total coward and an idiot.

jaybreezy

07/06/2012, 02:32 pm

To be fair any father would and SHOULD do this, it's the fact he then ran away afterward and left a poor young man who had helped provide him shelter to die a horrific death. All he needed to do was grab a leg and pull.

Exactly..

"Oh man my sons in trouble, i'll get to him as soon as I save this stranger over here..."

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 02:33 pm

I dont know if its as black and white as that.

Kenny decided to do what he did in the freezer to keep the group safe, not doing that would've been the risk imo. So here, Kenny was playing it safe.

Taking the food from the car was playimg it safe because without it the group or someone within the group could starve so again it could be seen as Kenny playing it safe.

Or we could look at it this way - Kenny takes the risk of action, while Lilly takes the risk of NOT acting. If you consider that each side has cons, then it's easy to say that both take risks, they just take risks that their respective methods are going to pay off.

CapnJay

07/06/2012, 02:35 pm

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 02:37 pm

Helping Shawn would be keeping the group safe, attacking the guy pointing a gun a Lee would be keeping the group safe, not shouting "are you Friendlies" at a bunch of zombies 100 ft away would be keeping the group safe etc etc. The man is a total coward and an idiot.

How is risking your life to save a singular person ever a decision to keep the "group" safe?

Besides, he acts no more stupidly in Macon than Lee does in Clementine's yard, screaming to the whole neighborhood full of Walkers. Not to mention the fact that it was Kenny's big mouth that probably got them noticed by the group in the Drug Store.

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 02:39 pm

Do you think Kenny thought about the Shawn situation when it came time to kill Larry thinking that he was too much of a coward to save shawn but he could make up for it by saving lily and lee from Zombie larry?

I think that specific plot was destined to happen anyway, but it's not unreasonable to assume that consoling him (which is given a plot marker in the game) in the Drug Store when he shows guilt over Shawn's death might harden his character a bit when you criticize him for his actions in the meat locker.

cooper56

07/06/2012, 02:44 pm

I thought kenny was alright in ep1... he did save my life and all but honestly im not fan any more... he seems very selfish and he would likely go to extreme to keep his family save and kill me and clem even.

Sisterofshane

07/06/2012, 03:03 pm

Exactly..

"Oh man my sons in trouble, i'll get to him as soon as I save this stranger over here..."

The scene plays out WAY differently if you save Duck first. If you choose to save Shawn, Duck just gets plucked off the tractor like it's no big deal, but if you go for Duck, you have to fight the Walker's tooth and nail while Kenny pulls with all of his strength, and then Shawn gets eaten almost IMMEDIATELY after Duck is pulled free.

Merc

07/06/2012, 03:28 pm

The scene plays out WAY differently if you save Duck first. If you choose to save Shawn, Duck just gets plucked off the tractor like it's no big deal, but if you go for Duck, you have to fight the Walker's tooth and nail while Kenny pulls with all of his strength, and then Shawn gets eaten almost IMMEDIATELY after Duck is pulled free.

Exactly. I was wondering what people were getting the whole "Kenny just derps around during that." I remember having to punch a zombies skull until my knuckles were bleeding to get that little brat my first playthrough.

Red Panda

08/22/2012, 08:24 am

j.em26

08/22/2012, 08:26 am

Team Lilly !
This thread of yours should have a poll.

bdawgnit1785

08/22/2012, 08:35 am

Team Lilly !
This thread of yours should have a poll.

4sure and 4sure. Polls and lilly wins by a landslide. Plus she kills someone awesome from the comics(well 3 someones)...hope we see her on the show. That would kick serious ass seeing Lily on amc's the walking dead

j.em26

08/22/2012, 08:43 am

I think canonically, Lilly is dead in the comics, or at least she is presumed to be.
Robert Kirkman mentioned he has no plans of developing her character further.

jaybreezy

08/22/2012, 08:50 am

Team Kenny all the way. In my game Kenny has constantly had my back so I have his.

bdawgnit1785

08/22/2012, 08:56 am

Team Kenny all the way. In my game Kenny has constantly had my back so I have his.

but you are duck...He who must be killed in front of his father...of course he has your back...and WE ALL HAVE YOUR BACKS TOO;) (picks up rifle slowly.) Did you know that back in the day when we had lame horses, we'd take em' out for a hike in the woods. Would you like to see the trail guys?:eek::p

Milosuperspesh

08/22/2012, 09:02 am

again op fails to list options

i say both or neither as i'm doing both/neither

kingmartykim

08/22/2012, 09:14 am

After siding with Kenny on episode 1 and 2 until the Larry's part...which i didn't agree with him...i replayed the whole game from episode 1 and sided with Lily...except the part with Larry trying to kill Duck....so yeah i hate that guy to death! Besides...i know he wouldn't save Clem if his family was involved so..i don't trust him anymore. Especially what happened at the Hershell's farm.

Couldn't_Make_It_Up

08/22/2012, 09:14 am

Team Kenny.

Lily is a bitch and bent up on power!

Personaly though I can see both parties screwing Lee over in Episode 5 which will end up leaving Lee and Clementine on their own!

JPG619

08/22/2012, 09:17 am

Team Kenny all the way. In my game Kenny has constantly had my back so I have his.

Me too Team Kenny all the way, Since Larry was a dick to me I am never siding with Lilly.

I might side with her later on to see what the difference in the story.

Cattivo

08/22/2012, 09:18 am

Neither. They're both awful. Clem & Carley/Doug are the only people to really have any loyalty towards in the game so far in my opinion.

Milosuperspesh

08/22/2012, 09:24 am

Neither. They're both awful. Clem & Carley/Doug are the only people to really have any loyalty towards in the game so far in my opinion.

for the record my 1st play is turning out to be middle ground neither ken or lily
not easy but more coincidence of me using gut reactions with out any rewinds

2nd is pro ken
3rd is pro lilly

Red Panda

08/22/2012, 09:43 am

again op fails to list options

i say both or neither as i'm doing both/neither

There are no other options. You can feel you're loyal to neither or both, but the game makes you choose a side.

One of them is going to hate you at the end of episode 2 regardless of how you feel.

Kiel555

08/22/2012, 10:06 am

There are no other options. You can feel you're loyal to neither or both, but the game makes you choose a side.

One of them is going to hate you at the end of episode 2 regardless of how you feel.

You're right. Since I'm forced to choose in the game I'm going with Lilly. As an added bonus, this Lilly may not be the Lilly from the comics. I've not read the comics but I understand my Lilly is not matching up with the comic Lilly storyline. I'd like Lilly to stay with my group. Kenny can hit the road at his earliest convenience.

In my game:

Kenny is not a leader or a follower. I just don't see him making it in any group. The people at the end of episode 2 are somewhat reasonable people and none of them support Kenny as leader (other than his wife and son of course). Kenny is consistent though, he does not follow anyone.

Lilly is not a leader but may be a follower. No one supports Lilly as leader either.

I'm siding with Lilly because I think there is hope for her to work well with others. Kenny is a lost cause. This is how I see things in my game and the comic storyline of Lilly notwithstanding.

Bearcules

08/22/2012, 10:16 am

I wouldn't mind Lilly as the protagonist in season 2.

Rock114

08/22/2012, 10:40 am

Even though I thought Kenny had a point in the meat locker...and I had sided with him every time up to then, INCLUDING then... after I pulled Lilly away and he smashed Larry, I had the same look on my face IRL as he did in the game.

I dunno. Lilly hates me now, but something just clicked then that I don't like Kenny anymore. Team Lilly, even though she hates my guts, I'd never let Kenny take care of Clem without me around.

Slowfiction

08/22/2012, 10:44 am

I choose to side Kenny, cause, he got a boat, and in ocean, there is no zombie... i hope!

Death689God

08/22/2012, 10:47 am

Team ME technically. But Lilly's definitely more reliable IMO.

Cyreen

08/22/2012, 10:48 am

One of them is going to hate you at the end of episode 2 regardless of how you feel.

Actually, they're both kinda pissed at me at the end of my primary game, Kenny because I helped Lilly and Lilly because I took the supplies. Don't really care, they're both wankers.

Red Panda

08/22/2012, 10:57 am

Actually, they're both kinda pissed at me at the end of my primary game, Kenny because I helped Lilly and Lilly because I took the supplies. Don't really care, they're both wankers.

Depending on who you pissed off, one of them will let you die. Shit just got real.

Cyreen

08/22/2012, 11:07 am

Kenny couldn't be trusted to begin with, what's new? But Lilly doesn't run me.

The_Cheshire_Cat

08/22/2012, 12:02 pm

Kenny couldn't be trusted to begin with, what's new? But Lilly doesn't run me.

I bet if she took her pants off she would.

brunner

08/22/2012, 12:16 pm

I'm trying my best to distance Lee from Kenny while getting on Lilly's good side. Kenny is too selfish for my liking, and Lilly is a good leader.

Zeruis

08/22/2012, 01:13 pm

Team Lilly. I was completely on Kenny's side until the meat locker. I could care less if he leaves our group.

Cyreen

08/22/2012, 01:21 pm

I bet if she took her pants off she would.

Speak for yourself, she does nothing for me.

NickPope

08/22/2012, 01:33 pm

Team Lilly,
Lilly saved me twice to Kenny`s one,and he dose not take criticism to well.Glenn was the smart one,and said cya.

alithanar8

08/22/2012, 11:16 pm

Team Kenny, at least Kenny has a backbone and doesn't just bow down to Larry, I know he will have my back no matter what happens. Yes I know in certain playthroughs he might be a coward, but in my play-through, he saved Lee's life twice. Lily hasn't ever done that, and even put down Carley and Glenn when they saved Lee's life.

ommmnomnomnom

08/23/2012, 01:44 am

As I have stated before...FUCK KENNY, FUCK LILLY, FUCK KATJAA, FUCK LARRY, FUCK DUCK, FUCK MARK, FUCK GLENN, FUCK CARLEY, FUCK DOUG, FUCK THE SWING, FUCK THE COW, FUCK JOLENE, FUCK THE BANDITS, FUCK THE ST JOHNS, FUCK JOLENE, FUCK SUICIDE GIRL, FUCK EVERYONE!

Apart from Team Lee.

Heartburnkid

08/23/2012, 03:20 am

Lilly's hot. So her.

Milosuperspesh

08/23/2012, 06:16 am

There are no other options. You can feel you're loyal to neither or both, but the game makes you choose a side.

One of them is going to hate you at the end of episode 2 regardless of how you feel.

turns out my 'first play through' is
.................................................. .................................................. .....
wait for it................................................ ............................................

drum roll please .................................................. .................................

pro lilly/larry LOL

AceStarr

08/23/2012, 07:10 am

Hershel tells you "Lee dont trust that guy now get the fuck off my farm" LOL

That was episode one but with the drugstore drama and Larry knocking you with a sucker punch. All that was said about Kenny was forgotten all our energies was towards geting revenge on Larry

All the team Kenny's you going to get fucked when he back stabs you:eek:

The13thRonin

08/23/2012, 08:10 am

I was team Kenny all the way and sided with him every single time in the series except for the Salt Lick incident and all of a sudden he acts as if I never helped him once, not ever... Well screw you Kenny... Lilly can kick your ass and I'm not even going to bat an eyelid. Team Lilly!

Couldn't_Make_It_Up

08/23/2012, 08:58 am

I forgot to point out that when Larry knocks you on your arse Kenny is the only one who comes back for you regardless how you've been towards him, Lily doesn't!!

indirect

08/23/2012, 09:32 am

Horny Nerds in this thread.
Anyone with real world (outside of basement) experience chooses Kenny.

mz3

08/23/2012, 09:42 am

I hate kenny[

bdawgnit1785

08/23/2012, 10:19 am

Horny Nerds in this thread.
Anyone with real world (outside of basement) experience chooses Kenny.

If people were horny porn is more than easily accessible by anyone with unblocked internet. please dont knock people for not liking the wishy washy prejudice selfish kenny. it is just a game and Im sure people don't just like lily cuz they are horny.

I like her cause at the st john dinner table u can tell clem to run (she cant) kenny to grab the gun (he doesn't) or lily to grab a knife (AND SHE DOES) this makes her one of my favorite people even though the knife didn't help she still sprung to action and got it done. THIS makes me like her, not cuz shes got a snatch ya weirdo

Red Panda

08/23/2012, 10:32 am

turns out my 'first play through' is
.................................................. .................................................. .....
wait for it................................................ ............................................

drum roll please .................................................. .................................

pro lilly/larry LOL

Just saying you were pro Lilly and pro Kenny doesn't make it true.

I don't know if you think you have magical words that create reality and/or you can't grasp the situation but I guarantee one of them was going to let Danny St. John shoot you. One of them was going to let you die.

You picked a side when you choose to save Larry or not, regardless of your intentions.

Cyreen

08/23/2012, 10:37 am

The story isn't over and I expect there are other decisions that will affect loyalties. Episode 2 is just the end of the honeymoon.

WowMutt

08/23/2012, 10:40 am

Team Kenny
why? The Boat

after that, I'm on team Lee!

indirect

08/23/2012, 11:02 am

If people were horny porn is more than easily accessible by anyone with unblocked internet. please dont knock people for not liking the wishy washy prejudice selfish kenny. it is just a game and Im sure people don't just like lily cuz they are horny.

I like her cause at the st john dinner table u can tell clem to run (she cant) kenny to grab the gun (he doesn't) or lily to grab a knife (AND SHE DOES) this makes her one of my favorite people even though the knife didn't help she still sprung to action and got it done. THIS makes me like her, not cuz shes got a snatch ya weirdo

20 bucks says this guy saved Carly too.

indirect

08/23/2012, 11:21 am

Milosuperspesh

08/23/2012, 11:55 am

Just saying you were pro Lilly and pro Kenny doesn't make it true.
I don't know if you think you have magical words that create reality and/or you can't grasp the situation but I guarantee one of them was going to let Danny St. John shoot you. One of them was going to let you die.

You picked a side when you choose to save Larry or not, regardless of your intentions.

oh sorry if i ruined your precious thread...

As my pro lilly/larry comment i didn't mean thats what i'm aiming to do, it's how my choices have panned out, as kenny isn't exactly happy with me..

carley saved me..kenny was on the ground after being shot..lilly helped as i tried to save larry..and i saved both brothers.

your guarantee means nothing to me, yes 'everyone' picks a side but that is purely secondry to playing for the first time..as no one really knows what the result of a choice is till later on/the end of season 1.

seriously...

ommmnomnomnom

08/23/2012, 12:03 pm

Horny Nerds in this thread.
Anyone with real world (outside of basement) experience chooses Kenny.

Real world experience you use in an artificial world with a fictional plot about zombies...you absolute mug, stop taking yourself so seriously xD Also you would choose to befriend the kind of person who shoots first, asks questions later and doesnt think about consequences (chucked out of herchels farm, gets knocked in the face by larry/wants to start immediate conflict, wants to be the leader of the group despite not ever helping with defences or food, he wants to smash the lock of while andy is right there, he runs at a now known mass murderer who has a loaded rifle and yeah he shows further ignorance through shouting at people he knows could have been zombies and were (when they first arrive at Macon) he calls Lee urban, he doesn't ever compromise it's his way or nothing which is stupid when you are outnumbered by billions of dead...so yeah not many things :p

indirect

08/23/2012, 12:07 pm

Real world experience you use in an artificial world with a fictional plot about zombies...you absolute mug, stop taking yourself so seriously xD Also you would choose to befriend the kind of person who shoots first, asks questions later and doesnt think about consequences (chucked out of herchels farm, gets knocked in the face by larry/wants to start immediate conflict, wants to be the leader of the group despite not ever helping with defences or food, he wants to smash the lock of while andy is right there, he runs at a now known mass murderer who has a loaded rifle and yeah he shows further ignorance through shouting at people he knows could have been zombies and were (when they first arrive at Macon) he calls Lee urban, he doesn't ever compromise it's his way or nothing which is stupid when you are outnumbered by billions of dead...so yeah not many things :p

Do you know what a hypocrite is?

ommmnomnomnom

08/23/2012, 12:18 pm

Do you know what a hypocrite is?

Do you know what a rhetorical question is?

Milosuperspesh

08/23/2012, 12:24 pm

indirect/ommnom back on topic ?

as i was saying before, on my first run with out prior knowledge of whats coming in a new episode...

i didn't save larry for lilly or to be against kenny i did it for clem. cos it's the right thing to do regardless of how much i dislike larry.. which really is my whole mantra do the right thing or always be there as a good role model for clem.

Red Panda

08/23/2012, 12:32 pm

wow, did a bug just die up your ass ? oh sorry if i ruined your precious thread...

As my pro lilly/larry comment i didn't mean thats what i'm aiming to do, it's how my choices have panned out, as kenny isn't exactly happy with me..

carley saved me..kenny was on the ground after being shot..lilly helped as i tried to save larry..and i saved both brothers.

your guarantee means nothing to me, yes 'everyone' picks a side but that is purely secondry to playing for the first time..as no one really knows what the result of a choice is till later on/the end of season 1.

seriously dude chill the fuck out..
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/063/985/iaintevenmad.jpg?1280994208

bdawgnit1785

08/23/2012, 12:42 pm

20 bucks says this guy saved Carly too.

i have played like a hundred times and its fifty fifty on who gets saved as i am bored waiting on ep 3. kenny was cool in ep 1...a coward but cool. ep 2 he was always yelling or storming off. oh and stop being such a twit;)

Milosuperspesh

08/23/2012, 12:46 pm

lol red

will smith meme can't argue with that

#brofist#

indirect

08/23/2012, 12:52 pm

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/063/985/iaintevenmad.jpg?1280994208

http://i.imgur.com/zTuq7.jpg

original one best one

Red Panda

08/23/2012, 01:27 pm

I haven't saved Doug in any of my saves, he brings nothing to the table, Carly can shoot. Kenny has a boat, an RV, a kid to repopulate the world with Clem in a few years, "can knock a few heads around", saved me when Lilly's shit father knocked me out (which is why we killed made sure he was killed dead), and knows how to look out for his family... which we've become.

Icedhope seems to think it's acceptable for you to assert that men are choosing Lilly b/c they're straight
Horny Nerds in this thread.
Anyone with real world (outside of basement) experience chooses Kenny.
20 bucks says this guy saved Carly too.

But if I even question if you're choosing Kenny, if you are a man, b/c you're gay (I don't think you are gay. I'm not trying to be offensive. I was trying to make a point. I'm sorry if you or anybody else were offended. I wouldn't care if you or anybody was gay, for the record. People's sexuality is none of my business), finds it so offensive he or she deletes my comment and gives me an infraction, which I find to be a gross double standard, which obviously stems from a hetero-normative worldview, let me say this...

You didn't make these choices b/c you were thinking about sex, I assume. Maybe some were, but most people are like you and thinking about what is the best decision.

A lot people were pro Kenny until the Larry incident. People felt he pulled the trigger, so to speak, too quickly and don't feel they can trust him.

You're free to think what you want but I think people are owed a little more credit in this case. Just my opinion.

Red Panda

08/23/2012, 01:30 pm

http://i.imgur.com/zTuq7.jpg

original one best one

haha no lie

bdawgnit1785

08/23/2012, 01:36 pm

You didn't make these choices b/c you were thinking about sex, I assume. Maybe some were, but most people are like you and thinking about what is the best decision.

A lot people were pro Kenny until the Larry incident. People felt he pulled the trigger, so to speak, too quickly and don't feel they can trust him.

You're free to think what you want but I think people are owed a little more credit in this case. Just my opinion.

this, indirect...^^^this^^^

harrisonpink

08/23/2012, 03:17 pm

As long as Kenny has that sweet moustache, I'm picking him.

Of course, that might change in Episode 5: Kenny finds a razor.

Milosuperspesh

08/23/2012, 03:27 pm

wow red got banned..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE too harsh ? ;)

As long as Kenny has that sweet moustache, I'm picking him.

Of course, that might change in Episode 5: Kenny finds a razor.

hmmm magnum p i fan ? or somat else ? ;) ahem cough..

if there's any razors lying around i reckon lee needs to shave by that point..

SadClown

08/23/2012, 04:21 pm

I'm on the fence. Leaning towards Kenny. Mostly because I know what happens to Lilly in the comic book. However, Kenny has been rather off lately. In the episode 3 trailer at the end of episode 2, Kenny says "I need you to have my back on this." After playing through episode 2 a few times and siding both with and against Kenny-- He gets really pissy if you're not with him 100%. And I really-- REALY hope that doesn't continue. But for now, my main play through is with Kenny.

thestalkinghead

08/23/2012, 04:37 pm

i'm gonna always be on kenny's side (on my real play through) he seems like a good person and he has a family so helping him is actually helping 3 people because he is always gonna look out for them, and if i die i think he would be a good parent to Clementine ,if he looses his family he would probably be a liability, so my mind may change about him.

but lilly just had larry who she would always side with and protect, now she doesnt have him and she is broken, and even before that she was mean and couldn't live up to her role as leader (who larry probably single-handedly voted her as leader or you get a punch in the face) by giving us the responsibility of sharing out the last of the food (if that was the last of the food) and not going to the farm to check it out for her group.

magodesky

08/23/2012, 05:30 pm

I'm siding with Team LEE.

Honestly, both Lilly and Kenny seem to only be half of a good leader. Like a lot of others here, I sided with Kenny most of the time up until the meat locker in Episode 2. I think he had the right idea when he was telling Lilly that they don't need her telling them what to do. I'm don't think a group with less than ten people really requires a strict hierarchy. The problem is Kenny's all talk. When it's crunch time, you can't really depend on him. No matter what, he doesn't help Lee save Shawn on Hershel's farm. He just bolts as soon as he gets Duck away. He takes "let's reason with this guy we just met" instead of immediately going to violence as some kind of betrayal. And he completely freaks out for no reason in the meat locker.

Lilly seems to have a cooler head. But she's a bit too eager to jump to the "it's them or us" approach. First when Glenn and Carley save Lee and company at the drugstore. Then again at the beginning of Episode 2 when she blows up at Lee for saving people's lives. Not to mention that she's kind of jeopardizing the whole group by insisting that they stay at the motel.

Of course, after I sided with Lilly in the meat locker, she seemed to warm up to Lee a bit. And obviously, Lee's relationship with Kenny has become more strained. But then, we didn't have much time to really talk after the farm. So I'm interested in seeing what the fallout is going to be in Episode 3. Will Lee and Kenny's friendship continue to deteriorate even further? Or will there be an opportunity for the two of them to reconcile?

I also notice that the end of Episode 2 kind of puts Lee in a good position to take over as leader himself after finding out what happened to Mark and saving Larry's family from the St. Johns. There are even a few lines in Episode 2 alluding to Lee becoming the leader. So I'll be interested in seeing if Episode 3 provides more opportunities for Lee to take on a more active role.

OTBASH

08/23/2012, 06:49 pm

Meh, Lilly's a bitch and Kenny's a spineless pussy when shit actually hits the fan so I wouldn't really choose either. But if I had to I guess Id have to lean a little towards Lilly. At least I can trust her to look after Clem when I'm not around like how she did in the farm. I would never trust Kenny with Clem.

CapnJay

08/23/2012, 07:09 pm

Team Clementine all the way

Rommel49

08/23/2012, 10:26 pm

Both choices kinda suck, honestly. However, Kenny's the worst of the two options. Can't be depended on when lives are at stake for no particularly good reason (e.g. the Shawn incident).

As I've covered elsewhere his boat plan is downright horrible from a survival point of view, which is kinda funny since a lot of people consider that Kenny's big "plus": It requires abandoning a guaranteed fresh water source (which is a big no-no in survival); even if his boat has something like an RO system, it's been allowed to sit idle, which they aren't supposed to. Yeah, they have food issues at the inn, but starvation takes weeks to kill, dehydration? That'll kill you in a few days. Even worse, the boat plan doesn't even really solve the food problem since you can't survive on just fish (not enough Vitamin C/B1, so have fun with diseases like Scurvy and Beriberi) - there's a reason survivalists tend to stockpile stuff like crates of MRE's and/or freeze-dried foods rather than buy fishing boats.

That's even assuming the boat's still there or accessible of course, since it's Florida and it has this thing called "Hurricane season", and there's no longer a weather service to tell you about it. It's also a coastal area, which tend to be the most densely populated areas in the country, which means that realistically you're going to have to deal with more Undead Americans than we've seen anywhere else in the series thus far, so have fun with that too.

Strictly from a "who's most likely to keep my ass alive" viewpoint, there's no reason to side with Kenny over Lilly.

thestalkinghead

08/23/2012, 10:34 pm

ommmnomnomnom

08/24/2012, 12:04 am

I'm siding with Team LEE

haha! You knows it! That is now 2 for the official Team Lee, I'll send you a t shirt, mug, grand piano and an apple, just send me your credit card details in an open message in the forum page that the most people go on...(disclaimer for mods: I am not being serious.)

Rommel49

08/24/2012, 04:49 am

kenny has the strongest motivation to keep other people than himself alive, all the others may just think they would be fine on their own, but kenny needs people to protect his family.

you are thinking about a boat wrong, its not so you can live in the middle of the ocean, its a moving base with a reasonably safe place to hide at night (the ocean) but in the day you would move from port to port river to river to pick up supplies, it is basically just like the RV but it can park in the sea

Everybody has a motivation to keep other people around, but it's worth noting that with Kenny those other people are expendable when measured against his family. That's not a plus.

Further, I did account for that with the boat plan (I've gone into further detail elsewhere). Where are you going to dock the boat when you need to go searching for supplies? There's only one option, back to the densely populated coast; fun fact, over half of the (newly undead, in this case) US population lives in a coastal region despite the fact they account for less than a fifth of the land area. You're also in pretty much the loudest and largest moving object around now too, so you're not credibly going to be able to avoid notice either. As a plan to avoid zombies, going where the majority of zombies are at... sucks.

You're also downright screwed when (not if) you need to refuel. A boat large enough to house a minimum of five people (Kenny's family, plus Lee and Clem) is going to need hundreds or thousands of gallons, you can't exactly siphon that from a couple of cars and call it a day. You're doubly screwed if a hurricane hits the coast too, since nothing's getting rebuilt.

To semi-reiterate the point I made earlier, there's a reason survivalists and military/governments tend to try and get themselves into a bunker when the shit hits the fan rather than buy fishing boats.

thestalkinghead

08/24/2012, 05:18 am

Everybody has a motivation to keep other people around, but it's worth noting that with Kenny those other people are expendable when measured against his family. That's not a plus.

Further, I did account for that with the boat plan (I've gone into further detail elsewhere). Where are you going to dock the boat when you need to go searching for supplies? There's only one option, back to the densely populated coast; fun fact, over half of the (newly undead, in this case) US population lives in a coastal region despite the fact they account for less than a fifth of the land area. You're also in pretty much the loudest and largest moving object around now too, so you're not credibly going to be able to avoid notice either. As a plan to avoid zombies, going where the majority of zombies are at... sucks.

You're also downright screwed when (not if) you need to refuel. A boat large enough to house a minimum of five people (Kenny's family, plus Lee and Clem) is going to need hundreds or thousands of gallons, you can't exactly siphon that from a couple of cars and call it a day. You're doubly screwed if a hurricane hits the coast too, since nothing's getting rebuilt.

To semi-reiterate the point I made earlier, there's a reason survivalists and military/governments tend to try and get themselves into a bunker when the shit hits the fan rather than buy fishing boats.

but if you lived in a bunker you would still have all the problems you listed about the boat (fuel, supplies, etc.) except you couldn't move your base if a zombie hoard decided to surround you, you would use a dingy or row boat to get to land and mainly keep the boat anchored and even though the sea wouldn't be 100% safe it is safer than land if your main danger are clumsy land based monsters, and also you could use the boat to get out of hurricane areas and search small islands, staying in the same place for to long is what would get you killed because once the zombies zone in on where you are they are just gonna go toward your base and just hang around untill you starve or try and escape

Awesoke

08/24/2012, 06:14 am

The probability of surviving in a well stocked bunker as opposed to a boat is much, much higher.

thestalkinghead

08/24/2012, 06:36 am

The probability of surviving in a well stocked bunker as opposed to a boat is much, much higher.

i agree a totally secure stocked bunker with supplies to last a year or so would be better than a boat, but a fully stocked military ship with supplies to last a year or so would be better than a bunker, but if they knew of either of the two they would be going for them, i dont know about the bunker situation in america but the few bunker i know about near where i live are just full of ammunition not food and fuel, but the military are gone for some reason in the walking dead so either the bunkers are over run or some other overly complicated scenario where the military is gone and so are their bunkers.

Rommel49

08/24/2012, 08:44 am

but if you lived in a bunker you would still have all the problems you listed about the boat (fuel, supplies, etc.) except you couldn't move your base if a zombie hoard decided to surround you, you would use a dingy or row boat to get to land and mainly keep the boat anchored and even though the sea wouldn't be 100% safe it is safer than land if your main danger are clumsy land based monsters, and also you could use the boat to get out of hurricane areas and search small islands, staying in the same place for to long is what would get you killed because once the zombies zone in on where you are they are just gonna go toward your base and just hang around untill you starve or try and escape

A boat needs fuel to remain mobile which is supposedly one of the big plusses of the idea. That's not a concern for a bunker, it'd only potentially need fuel for electricity. Hell, a decent bunker will probably never even encounter a horde of zombies in the first place as long as it's built away from major population centers (like you'd find on the coast), particularly since it's not drawing attention to itself by doing little stuff like moving.

Most commercial fishing vessels also tend not to carry rowboats or dinghies, aside from maybe an inflatable life raft, considering they typically use their deck space for little things like fishing. You're also still forced to dock at the densely populated coast when you need to forage for supplies (which potentially includes things as basic as drinking water, which is also damned heavy to lug around), and a docked boat ain't exactly mobile. And to reiterate, if your plan to avoid zombies requires going to where the majority of the zombies are going to be, it's a sucky plan for avoiding zombies - period.

You're also assuming you'll have the fuel to explore, avoid storms and hurricanes (and as I've pointed out earlier there'd be no weather service to alert you to when and where a storm might hit), etc. particularly when you can't realistically refuel.

Fact is we build fortifications for a reason, and that's to last. The castles and trenches of yesteryear held up against hordes of intelligent enemies for months or years on end whether they tried assaulting the things or starving out the occupants, and it's not like you need to worry about the zombies using cannons or tanks.

Kiel555

08/24/2012, 09:12 am

I concur with Rommel49 and the folly of going to the coast and living on a boat. Still, zombies are not the only threat. A boat and lots of walkers is a good counter to the other threat.

I don't know what would be a good plan in a ZA. If a good plan does exist, I think being mobile, in a low population density area, very well armed and the ability to engage and defeat small groups of walkers or humans to recover supplies would be componets of that plan. I think being mobile is critical though. Need to find new "hunting grounds" or retreat. A static defense may work against humans but not against walkers who will never tire and just leave.

magodesky

08/24/2012, 11:08 am

As I've covered elsewhere his boat plan is downright horrible from a survival point of view, which is kinda funny since a lot of people consider that Kenny's big "plus": It requires abandoning a guaranteed fresh water source (which is a big no-no in survival); even if his boat has something like an RO system, it's been allowed to sit idle, which they aren't supposed to. Yeah, they have food issues at the inn, but starvation takes weeks to kill, dehydration? That'll kill you in a few days.

The problem with this is that at the motel, they're relying on scavenging from a finite food supply. So staying there pretty much guarantees that they'll die sooner or later. Personally, I'd rather take the chance that we might not be able to find supplies elsewhere than the certainty of running out of food at the motel.

As far as water goes, they can always go back ashore to resupply, as is pointed out above. Also, it wouldn't be too difficult to set up a system for purifying water. So it's not that dire.

Where are you going to dock the boat when you need to go searching for supplies? There's only one option, back to the densely populated coast; fun fact, over half of the (newly undead, in this case) US population lives in a coastal region despite the fact they account for less than a fifth of the land area.

That number is skewed, though, because a lot of cities are built along the coast, and metropolitan areas obviously have much higher population densities. There's still enough coast land between cities with low enough populations for a small group to sneak ashore on a dingy to resupply. Not to mention that there are a number of islands along the coast with relatively low populations.

There's also no reason to assume that the zombies will stay in the population centers. It's not like they still need to be close to the office. I realize the games are based on the comic book continuity, but in the TV show at least, they do show the walkers eventually starting to spread out from the cities. Which makes sense to me, since there's no reason for them to stay in the cities once there are no more brains to eat.

A boat needs fuel to remain mobile which is supposedly one of the big plusses of the idea. That's not a concern for a bunker, it'd only potentially need fuel for electricity. Hell, a decent bunker will probably never even encounter a horde of zombies in the first place as long as it's built away from major population centers (like you'd find on the coast), particularly since it's not drawing attention to itself by doing little stuff like moving.

I agree with you that a good, well-supplied bunker would make a much better base than Kenny's boat. I guess the only problem with it is that they don't have one. So there's no reason to keep bringing it up since it's not even an option. They do have a boat. And all things considered, I think you could do a lot worse than setting up in a place that you can at least take offshore during the night so you don't have to worry about unexpected zombie attacks (I can't imagine zombies being terribly good swimmers).

Though I kind of suspect that the stuff about Kenny's boat may be setting up for an ending where the survivors retire to some zombie-free island. Kind of like Sarah and company in Day of the Dead.

Cyreen

08/24/2012, 11:16 am

I bet soggy zombies bloat and float. It's not like they're worried about drowning, I don't see a shoreline stopping them.

Kiel555

08/24/2012, 11:20 am

I bet soggy zombies bloat and float. It's not like they'd worried about drowning, I don't see a shoreline stopping them.

Ugh...what must that smell like? Count me out for going to the coast.

Milosuperspesh

08/24/2012, 01:15 pm

wow this thread has some long ass posts in it...

the only constant in my playthroughs is clem

l

Rock114

08/24/2012, 02:21 pm

I prefer team Lee. Lilly, while having a softer side, literally blows up at anyone for doing something she doesn't want them to. Like screaming at Carley and Glenn for saving Lee an Co. outside the pharmacy. To me it seemed loike she yelled more because she told Carley and Glenn NOT to save them, than thinking they may have been a danger. She freaked out when Ben comes back to the camp, but I wasn't going to leave some poor kid in the walker-infested wilderness all alone. Her only good choice seemed to be wanting to leave the Dairy in Episode 2.

Likewise, Kenny is a brave man when it comes to his family (IMHO), and people he trusts. He saved Lee, no matter what, from the pharmacy, and leaped into the fray to save Duck at Hershel's farm, but when his family is safe, you're walker bait if he doesn't like you. Like if you side with Lilly in the meat locker. He's also not the brightest person, running at Andy when he had a gun trained on him, and he jumps the gun mroe than is healthy in a zombie apocalypse.

Both ahve ups and downs, but Lee is the only one who could get anyone out alive, if you ask me.

indirect

08/24/2012, 03:53 pm

this, indirect...^^^this^^^

Why are you still posting? No one likes you or agrees with you on anything.

indirect

08/24/2012, 03:55 pm

wow red got banned..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE too harsh ? ;)

Not unexpected.

Master of Aeons

08/24/2012, 04:30 pm

I bet soggy zombies bloat and float. It's not like they're worried about drowning, I don't see a shoreline stopping them.

My friends and I argued a similar topic about this. Humans float because of their filled lungs. Meat sinks. Decomposing corpses fill with air and float.

So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies. They mostly chase sound without hesitation.

I guess the best cure for zombies is to make a lot of noise in the center of the Pacific.

Kiel555

08/24/2012, 05:41 pm

My friends and I argued a similar topic about this. Humans float because of their filled lungs. Meat sinks. Decomposing corpses fill with air and float.

So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies. They mostly chase sound without hesitation.

I guess the best cure for zombies is to make a lot of noise in the center of the Pacific.

I've got to stop reading these posts at dinner time.....

Rommel49

08/24/2012, 06:30 pm

The problem with this is that at the motel, they're relying on scavenging from a finite food supply. So staying there pretty much guarantees that they'll die sooner or later. Personally, I'd rather take the chance that we might not be able to find supplies elsewhere than the certainty of running out of food at the motel.

As far as water goes, they can always go back ashore to resupply, as is pointed out above. Also, it wouldn't be too difficult to set up a system for purifying water. So it's not that dire.

Basic survivalism, you should have atleast three days supply of fresh water, and a person needs a bare minimum of a gallon per day for drinking and sanitation. Double that figure for a warm climate (like say, Georgia), and increase it further to account for physical activity (and kids may need even more water beyond that). That's a minimum of about 50 lbs. of water per person even if we only account for the climate (and ignore the fact that the group has both kids and members that are physically active):

Two gallons per day per person, at 8.3 lbs. per gallon, times three days and further multiply it by five (the number of people in a hypothetical Kenny's family + Lee and Clem group), they're looking at lugging around close to atleast 250 lbs. of water, and that's being unrealistically conservative. Even worse, you can realistically only split that near-250 lbs. among three people, and more realistically two for any hypothetical supply run; the kids literally can't carry their own water. So if the kids stay behind at the boat with adult supervision (e.g. Katjaa), that leaves Lee and Kenny trying to find and fetch 125 lbs. of fresh water each just for basic survival. Even with a vehicle that's stupidly demanding and time-consuming (since they still need to bring water to that vehicle, load it, etc.). That's just for water, not supplementary food, fuel, etc.

The lack of food at the inn can be attributed to the group's inexperience with hunting/trapping since we know there's wildlife in the area, and even in spite of that, if you can justify trying to forage for supplies in a densely populated coastal area in another state (where Kenny's boat is), there's no reason you couldn't justify trying to gank a crate or two of MRE's from the supply area of a nearby military base or what have you. Hell, as of Episode 2 we know there's farms in the area too... which isn't exactly surprising since nearly a third of the land in Georgia is farmland.

That number is skewed, though, because a lot of cities are built along the coast, and metropolitan areas obviously have much higher population densities. There's still enough coast land between cities with low enough populations for a small group to sneak ashore on a dingy to resupply. Not to mention that there are a number of islands along the coast with relatively low populations.

There's also no reason to assume that the zombies will stay in the population centers. It's not like they still need to be close to the office. I realize the games are based on the comic book continuity, but in the TV show at least, they do show the walkers eventually starting to spread out from the cities. Which makes sense to me, since there's no reason for them to stay in the cities once there are no more brains to eat.

That's exactly the point though; most population centers are on the coast, i.e. where most people live. This is why if you're lost and you end up making the decision to affect self-rescue, you typically head towards a coastline - odds are you're going to run into people. In most survival situations, it's valid, if everybody's dead and trying to eat you? Not so much.

We know Kenny's family is from Ft. Lauderdale, so odds are that's where his boat is. It's within a major metropolitan area, hell, Miami's within 30 miles of it and the only places in the country that have higher population densities are in New York and California. It also means that quite a few people had a chance to gank that boat while Kenny was in Georgia when the shit hit the fan.

I agree with you that a good, well-supplied bunker would make a much better base than Kenny's boat. I guess the only problem with it is that they don't have one. So there's no reason to keep bringing it up since it's not even an option. They do have a boat. And all things considered, I think you could do a lot worse than setting up in a place that you can at least take offshore during the night so you don't have to worry about unexpected zombie attacks (I can't imagine zombies being terribly good swimmers).

Though I kind of suspect that the stuff about Kenny's boat may be setting up for an ending where the survivors retire to some zombie-free island. Kind of like Sarah and company in Day of the Dead.

Pretty much any reasonably fortified position (particularly those away from the coastline) would be a better option than the boat, which was the point. This is why we build them, whether it's a proper bunker, a guy's basement, or even the motel ingame. As I pointed out above, we don't know if they have a boat, and realistically the odds would be very much against it; Kenny hasn't been within 500 miles of the thing for over three months, literally millions of people had better and easier access to that boat than he did. Incidentally, that's also a 500+ mile trip they need to make to reach where the boat is (or more realistically was) for really questionable gain.

Cyreen

08/24/2012, 06:41 pm

Why are you still posting? No one likes you or agrees with you on anything.

I haven't seen him post anything offensive to anyone and I can agree with sentiment he quoted.

I guess the best cure for zombies is to make a lot of noise in the center of the Pacific.

A slight boating hazard when they float or when they wash/walk up on shore on isolated islands.

Master of Aeons

08/24/2012, 06:46 pm

I hear that's what happened to the Titanic.

Desmodus87

08/24/2012, 07:05 pm

I've sided with Kenny from the beginning because, though either "team" has a good point and a valid perspective that they're coming from, Kenny just seems like a nicer person. However, I recently started a new save where I sided with Lilly, and she's a much better person in that version of my game. Either way, I think Larry's a dick. When I sided with Larry, he still punched me out and Kenny still saved me. (Which made me still like Kenny lol.)

indirect

08/24/2012, 07:36 pm

I haven't seen him post anything offensive to anyone and I can agree with sentiment he quoted.

Yet who are you?

Cyreen

08/24/2012, 07:43 pm

What's it to you? Did you register here just to kick sand like some 5-year-old bully?

CapnJay

08/24/2012, 07:56 pm

Who is anyone in this great big sandbox called life?

bdawgnit1785

08/24/2012, 09:43 pm

Yet who are you?

someone whos posts aren't just slams. grow up and take the trash out, you know your mom has asked a couple times now...You can finish your Gossip Girl fanfic later;)

magodesky

08/25/2012, 05:46 am

So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies.

It certainly wouldn't kill them, since they're already dead. The real issue, though, isn't buoyancy so much as propulsion. Moving through water requires a lot muscle use, which is something we don't really see much of in zombies. They just kind of shamble forward. So if they were to walk into the water, regardless of whether they sink or float, there's nothing to keep them from being swept away by the current.

...that leaves Lee and Kenny trying to find and fetch 125 lbs. of fresh water each just for basic survival. Even with a vehicle that's stupidly demanding and time-consuming (since they still need to bring water to that vehicle, load it, etc.). That's just for water, not supplementary food, fuel, etc.

Which is something they have to do anyway. It's not like the motel still has running water. Which means any clean drinking water they have on hand was carried there.

The lack of food at the inn can be attributed to the group's inexperience with hunting/trapping since we know there's wildlife in the area, and even in spite of that, if you can justify trying to forage for supplies in a densely populated coastal area in another state (where Kenny's boat is), there's no reason you couldn't justify trying to gank a crate or two of MRE's from the supply area of a nearby military base or what have you. Hell, as of Episode 2 we know there's farms in the area too... which isn't exactly surprising since nearly a third of the land in Georgia is farmland.

Preexisting supplies (like MREs) won't last long without someone bringing in more stock on a regular basis. And most of what was there likely would have already been looted during the course of the first three months.

Food from farms might bolster your supplies for a time. The problem with that is that while agriculture is good for producing a great quantity of food on a more reliable basis, it doesn't exactly make for a diverse, self-sustaining ecosystem. It's also very labor intensive. So all of that farmland isn't going to last for long without people maintaining it.

Hunting could work as a long-term solution. But the lack of food isn't just a result of the group being inexperienced. Most metropolitan areas don't generally have a lot wildlife. So if you want to find enough to live on, you're going to have to leave Macon. And even then, you wouldn't want to just stay in one place. There's a reason why most hunter-gatherer societies tend to move around. They have to go where the food is. Stay in one place too long, and it gets harder to find decent food. Then you have to go farther and farther out each time you go looking.

That's exactly the point though; most population centers are on the coast, i.e. where most people live. This is why if you're lost and you end up making the decision to affect self-rescue, you typically head towards a coastline - odds are you're going to run into people. In most survival situations, it's valid, if everybody's dead and trying to eat you? Not so much.

Well, my point was that that population is concentrated in certain spots. Your post above made it sound like they would be evenly spread out along the whole length of the east coast, which wouldn't be the case. There would still be plenty of areas where someone who wanted to go ashore could do so without attracting much attention.

It also means that quite a few people had a chance to gank that boat while Kenny was in Georgia when the shit hit the fan.

Yes. This is what I see as the biggest flaw in the boat plan. Once the panic and looting started, what would have stopped someone from just taking Kenny's boat? And even if it is still there, what condition is it in at this point? Is it even still seaworthy?

Ultimately, you're correct that the boat isn't a long-term solution. But in the short-term, it could provide a measure of security and mobility while they look for a place that is safe.

LuCiDOmEn

08/25/2012, 06:30 am

I was team kenny my first 2 walkthroughs...

however in my 3rd I dont say much or take sides... im going to try to be my own leader.

Bcroft

08/25/2012, 07:39 am

team lilly

Rommel49

08/25/2012, 08:26 am

Which is something they have to do anyway. It's not like the motel still has running water. Which means any clean drinking water they have on hand was carried there.

Actually, it is implied the motel still has running water; Lily's whole "the place has everything we need except food" spiel. We don't see any containers laying about the place and we know the St. Johns farm has running water when Lee asks to go to the bathroom to wash up.

Preexisting supplies (like MREs) won't last long without someone bringing in more stock on a regular basis. And most of what was there likely would have already been looted during the course of the first three months.

Food from farms might bolster your supplies for a time. The problem with that is that while agriculture is good for producing a great quantity of food on a more reliable basis, it doesn't exactly make for a diverse, self-sustaining ecosystem. It's also very labor intensive. So all of that farmland isn't going to last for long without people maintaining it.

Hunting could work as a long-term solution. But the lack of food isn't just a result of the group being inexperienced. Most metropolitan areas don't generally have a lot wildlife. So if you want to find enough to live on, you're going to have to leave Macon. And even then, you wouldn't want to just stay in one place. There's a reason why most hunter-gatherer societies tend to move around. They have to go where the food is. Stay in one place too long, and it gets harder to find decent food. Then you have to go farther and farther out each time you go looking.

Thing is, supplies only tend to run out when people are eating them. Zombies don't eat MRE's, canned goods, etc. The fact remains that if you can justify running around a coastline trying to forage for supplies, you can justify trying to get them from anywhere... even places you know are "overrun" (e.g. the base where they found Mark), since all of these problems are going to be even more prevalent on the coast.

And the group is definitely inexperienced with hunting, we don't see any real sign that they tried to supplement active hunting with trapping, for example. Likewise, you're going to start seeing animal populations (e.g. rabbits) balloon within half a year or so too.

Again, making the trip to the boat doesn't solve any of these problems either. Ft. Lauderdale is in a major metropolitan area, and to a far greater extent than Macon; it's within 30 miles of the most densely populated city outside of California or New York.

Well, my point was that that population is concentrated in certain spots. Your post above made it sound like they would be evenly spread out along the whole length of the east coast, which wouldn't be the case. There would still be plenty of areas where someone who wanted to go ashore could do so without attracting much attention.

Where? As I noted, most commercial fishing vessels don't typically carry smaller boats (aside from maybe an inflatable life raft) since it takes deck space away from things like fishing. The places you're likely going to dock to search for supplies are going to be places with low-lying fruit, i.e. places that haven been developed with things like proper ports and realistically have supplies to gank (hell, it's the whole reason settlers landed at Plymouth Rock, it was originally a native town with recently planted corn, cleared fields, a pre-built harbor, etc.).

And it doesn't change that you're still in the largest moving object in a densely populated region where you're far more likely to run into undead people.

Yes. This is what I see as the biggest flaw in the boat plan. Once the panic and looting started, what would have stopped someone from just taking Kenny's boat? And even if it is still there, what condition is it in at this point? Is it even still seaworthy?

Ultimately, you're correct that the boat isn't a long-term solution. But in the short-term, it could provide a measure of security and mobility while they look for a place that is safe.

Not really, it's like saying "Well, it could rain s'mores and bacon, and the zombies could be gone tomorrow"; that doesn't mean you make actionable "plans" (I use the term loosely) based on that assumption, especially not when it entails leaving guaranteed sources of fresh water and making 500 mile trips to places that are only going to have lower numbers of zombies than California or New York (and that's pretty much unavoidable, since that's where the boat is or was).

Master of Aeons

08/25/2012, 10:46 am

It certainly wouldn't kill them, since they're already dead. The real issue, though, isn't buoyancy so much as propulsion. Moving through water requires a lot muscle use, which is something we don't really see much of in zombies. They just kind of shamble forward. So if they were to walk into the water, regardless of whether they sink or float, there's nothing to keep them from being swept away by the current.

Correct. So zombies would be swept to sea, bloat up and rise to the surface and get washed up somewhere else. Those would probably be the grossest ones, close to the well zombie from the TV series.

magodesky

08/25/2012, 11:31 am

Actually, it is implied the motel still has running water; Lily's whole "the place has everything we need except food" spiel. We don't see any containers laying about the place and we know the St. Johns farm has running water when Lee asks to go to the bathroom to wash up.

It's implied that "the place has everything we need" because it's close to town. Meaning that they're making runs into Macon to keep their supplies stocked. There's no reason to think that there's still water running there, especially since we already saw the power go out three months before so there's nothing to keep the pumping stations operational. In this kind of scenario, utilities would pretty much be the first thing to go. No, we don't see a lot of water containers around the parking lot, but we also don't get to see the whole location. They could be storing their supplies inside the motel or in the RV.

As for the St. Johns... could have just been an oversight on Telltale's part. But we also saw that they had made a lot of their own improvements to the property, so it may be that they have their own water supply that they're using too.

Thing is, supplies only tend to run out when people are eating them. Zombies don't eat MRE's, canned goods, etc.

No, but there are still a lot of survivors running around. And the first thing they're going to do is grab whatever food is left. Heck, we already saw in Episode 2, the first thing people did was head to the Save Lots. Without any way to resupply, that's not going to last very long.

The other thing is that you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. It's safe to assume that the most easily accessible food is going to be grabbed first. Once that's gone, you have to work a little bit harder to find more. And each time, it gets a little bit harder. Until eventually, there may still be some food left somewhere in the city, but it's not worth the time and effort it would take to go searching for it.

And the group is definitely inexperienced with hunting, we don't see any real sign that they tried to supplement active hunting with trapping, for example.

Well first of all, we're not really given any indication about any of their levels of experience with hunting one way or the other. I generally take that to mean the player can decide for his or her self whether their Lee is a hunter or not. It's a common enough sport that it wouldn't be unbelievable that Lee did some hunting before the zombie apocalypse. We don't see them trying to use traps, but that doesn't mean that they weren't. It's entirely possible that they tried that too and simply didn't catch anything. Because again, there's not much wildlife in a metropolitan area like Macon. And they're obviously competing with the walkers for what few animals there are.

Either way, that's not really the point. They could be the best hunters in the whole world. That's still not going to help them if they decide to stay in one spot where there's hardly anything to hunt. In order to be successful at hunting, you have to first go to where the food is. It only works as a survival strategy if your group maintains a certain level of mobility.

Likewise, you're going to start seeing animal populations (e.g. rabbits) balloon within half a year or so too.

That may not be the case since, as we see at the beginning of Episode 2, the walkers are also eating animals like rabbits. That could keep the population pretty low.

But for the sake of argument, let's take them out of the picture and assume you're right. With the significantly reduced human population and lack of maintenance on the cities, the wildlife population would certainly bounce back. The thing is, metropolitan areas would be the absolute last places to rewild. You're starting off with an area that's practically dead. Just concrete and a few weeds. Some small animals may go through, but you're not going to get significant increases in the animal population until more plants start growing in that they can eat. That's going to take a while because concrete doesn't exactly make for very good growing conditions, and what soil there is has all kinds of nasty toxins and chemicals in it. Now the Earth is pretty darn resilient, so it would grow in eventually, and probably a lot faster than most people would think. But half a year seems awfully optimistic.

But again, just for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right. In half a year's time, Macon once again has a thriving ecosystem filled with all kinds of animal life. That still doesn't help our survivors much when they're thinking about how they're going to get food today. Six months is a long time to wait for a meal. And that timeframe would be an absolute best case scenario.

Where?

Um... anywhere along the entire east coast?

As I noted, most commercial fishing vessels don't typically carry smaller boats (aside from maybe an inflatable life raft) since it takes deck space away from things like fishing.

It would kind of depend on the boat, but I'm pretty sure they're actually required to carry lifeboats onboard. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kenny obeys the law. But it's safe to assume that it at least has something like an inflatable raft. And if they really needed one, they could always just take a smaller boat with them since they'd be going to the docks anyway.

That's assuming they need to land on a beach. There are also smaller ports they could head for that wouldn't be as heavily populated as, say, the docks in New York City. And, as I mentioned before, there's no reason to assume that the zombies will stay in the cities for long.

And it doesn't change that you're still in the largest moving object in a densely populated region where you're far more likely to run into undead people.

What does size matter if none of your enemies can reach you? Even assuming one of the walkers spots the boat from the shore, what's he going to do about it? Groan angrily at it? I'm shaking already.

Not really, it's like saying "Well, it could rain s'mores and bacon, and the zombies could be gone tomorrow"

Um... okay. That doesn't actually make any sense, but whatever.

Zeruis

08/25/2012, 11:49 am

Sad that I'm on Team Lilly when she's likely to leave in the 3rd episode. I'm not looking forward to mending my relationship with Kenny.

Cyreen

08/25/2012, 12:15 pm

I don't care if Kenny's mad at me now, I'm not actively siding with either of them. I'll cover their butts, if they cover mine (and hopefully I won't have to count on it).

So zombies would be swept to sea, bloat up and rise to the surface and get washed up somewhere else...

or get caught in propellers or haul themselves aboard.

thestalkinghead

08/25/2012, 12:41 pm

i think once we got to shore stealing a few sail boats would probably be a better idea than a boat with a motor, but maybe initially a boat with a motor would be good, a few solar stills would help with water, but rivers are full of water and they head towards the sea so boiling water from rivers would get enough water to survive, it would be like the film water world but with land that is just to dangerous to live on instead of no land

LeeLee

08/25/2012, 12:47 pm

Kenny is such an as*hole

Cyreen

08/25/2012, 12:52 pm

I think we need a separate thread for all things nautical.

Eric Northman

08/25/2012, 04:21 pm

Who's side are you on? Why?

I was team Kenny until episode 2. His all or nothing attitude made me mad. Plus, Lilly actually seemed to be kinder and more rational in regards to the farm. She got a weird vibe, wanted food to go, and I was with her on both sentiments.

It's hard to say, because if you do back up Kenny then he is the ultimate good guy. He only seems like a jerk when you don't back him up. Lilly does seem to be a little more even tempered, and that is important in a team member.

Rommel49

08/25/2012, 04:49 pm

It's implied that "the place has everything we need" because it's close to town. Meaning that they're making runs into Macon to keep their supplies stocked. There's no reason to think that there's still water running there, especially since we already saw the power go out three months before so there's nothing to keep the pumping stations operational. In this kind of scenario, utilities would pretty much be the first thing to go. No, we don't see a lot of water containers around the parking lot, but we also don't get to see the whole location. They could be storing their supplies inside the motel or in the RV.

As for the St. Johns... could have just been an oversight on Telltale's part. But we also saw that they had made a lot of their own improvements to the property, so it may be that they have their own water supply that they're using too.

The water situation is mentioned when they first settle at the place in Episode 1 (where it's explicitly said the motel has running water), and Lilly makes it a point to state when needed resources are offsite (e.g. her dad's pills at the pharmacy). We know the farm has running water, and none of the motel survivors are apparently wowed that the St. Johns don't need to lug damn near a quarter-ton of water around with them (the full group is 9 people prior to Ben's arrival, again, 50 lbs. per person for a three day supply, and even that's being unrealistically conservative). And of course, not everyone can carry their own water or participate; the kids definately can't, it's unlikely Larry left the motel all that often, etc.

Hell, they don't even have a functional vehicle that can conceivably haul that much around in a single go, plus passengers, and that's excluding any other supplies and ignores the fact we've only seen the group move on foot since settling at the inn. Nevermind hunting or building fences, they'd be spending all their time fetching water if they lacked a running supply onsite.

Even more damning, a lack of running water would mean they're fetching it from the wild (unless there's mysteriously still bottles of Arrowhead laying around, yet no food), e.g. nearby ponds, rivers, steams, etc. which means they'd have to boil it too, which would necessitate fire since the power's out (it's kinda rare for a motel room to have a stove) and we don't see a campfire outside.

No, but there are still a lot of survivors running around. And the first thing they're going to do is grab whatever food is left. Heck, we already saw in Episode 2, the first thing people did was head to the Save Lots. Without any way to resupply, that's not going to last very long.

Actually, as we learn from Andy the employees/bandits told people to gather there; we don't know how many actually did, and seriously, it's not like the bandits were known for being caring and sharing (hell, they shoot each other in the face).

We've seen a total of maybe two dozen people in the area, including Lee's group. That kinda puts a maximum on how much of the area's resources have actually been consumed.

The other thing is that you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. It's safe to assume that the most easily accessible food is going to be grabbed first. Once that's gone, you have to work a little bit harder to find more. And each time, it gets a little bit harder. Until eventually, there may still be some food left somewhere in the city, but it's not worth the time and effort it would take to go searching for it.

That's true no matter where you go; standard figure for a disaster is that low-lying fruit is going to be gone within six months or so. To reiterate however, since this point hasn't been answered, the fact remains that if you can justify a 500-mile trip to one of the most densely populated regions in the country (which is in no way, shape, or form optional, since that's where the boat is) you can justify going pretty much anywhere to look for supplies, even places you know have been "overrun" like the St. Johns farm (which had a decent crop of corn), etc. since statistically those places are going to have far fewer zombies than you'd find trying to reach the boat.

Well first of all, we're not really given any indication about any of their levels of experience with hunting one way or the other. I generally take that to mean the player can decide for his or her self whether their Lee is a hunter or not. It's a common enough sport that it wouldn't be unbelievable that Lee did some hunting before the zombie apocalypse. We don't see them trying to use traps, but that doesn't mean that they weren't. It's entirely possible that they tried that too and simply didn't catch anything. Because again, there's not much wildlife in a metropolitan area like Macon. And they're obviously competing with the walkers for what few animals there are.

Incorrect, Lee admits as much when chatting with Danny about the fact he knew how to handle the rifle Danny let him borrow; Lee credits Lilly as being the one that trained the group on how to use the weapons they had.

Hell, from the first zombie in Ep. 1 we can see that Lee's pretty much never really handled a firearm in his life considering he doesn't even brace the stock against his shoulder (not exactly surprising considering the guy was a civics professor)... and this is something that Lee just happens to pick up on during Ep. 2 while searching for the camp with Danny (i.e. after Lilly trained the group).

Appeal to ignorance on trapping too; It's never even implied they attempted it, and as the old saying goes in that regard "It's called trapping, not killing", you wouldn't throw in the towel after a failed attempt anyway. Again, pretty basic survivalism, you lay down multiple traps to maximize the chances of catching something.

That may not be the case since, as we see at the beginning of Episode 2, the walkers are also eating animals like rabbits. That could keep the population pretty low.

But for the sake of argument, let's take them out of the picture and assume you're right. With the significantly reduced human population and lack of maintenance on the cities, the wildlife population would certainly bounce back. The thing is, metropolitan areas would be the absolute last places to rewild. You're starting off with an area that's practically dead. Just concrete and a few weeds. Some small animals may go through, but you're not going to get significant increases in the animal population until more plants start growing in that they can eat. That's going to take a while because concrete doesn't exactly make for very good growing conditions, and what soil there is has all kinds of nasty toxins and chemicals in it. Now the Earth is pretty darn resilient, so it would grow in eventually, and probably a lot faster than most people would think. But half a year seems awfully optimistic.

But again, just for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right. In half a year's time, Macon once again has a thriving ecosystem filled with all kinds of animal life. That still doesn't help our survivors much when they're thinking about how they're going to get food today. Six months is a long time to wait for a meal. And that timeframe would be an absolute best case scenario.

1.) We saw one zombie eating one rabbit; and that rabbit could well have been dead beforehand. We didn't see the zombie actually catch the thing (considering they move more slowly than old people with walkers, not exactly surprising). Likewise, this isn't a plus in favor of the boat, since that problem will only increase on the coastline.

2.) We can see that the motel's right next to the woods, they're not exactly in the middle of downtown. Likewise, nearly a third of Georgia is farmland (hell, they're within walking distance of atleast one).

Even so, the entire Macon metropolitan area consisting of five counties has a population a little under a quarter million. By contrast, the population of the metropolitan area you need to go just to have a chance of fetching the boat? More than than 5 and a half million, a little over 20 times higher, and docks do actually tend to be built in highly developed areas.

3.) It's already been three months, and they found enough to supply them for that long when they found Mark, that leaves another three months. Simply put, pretty much any plan short of heading to Manhattan for Ice Cream is better than making that 500+ mile trip to Florida. And again, really basic survivalism, starvation takes weeks to kill you, dehydration will kill you in days. They can't take their water source with them on their 500+ mile trip.

Even leaving aside little things like the fact one area has farmland within walking distance, Which area is realistically going to suffer resource exhaustion first? The one that had a bit under a quarter million people living in it, or the one that had over five and a half million?

Um... anywhere along the entire east coast?

Which is still the most densely populated area of the country, i.e. where you're far more likely to run into zombie hordes that dwarf anything we've seen in the series thus far.

It would kind of depend on the boat, but I'm pretty sure they're actually required to carry lifeboats onboard. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kenny obeys the law. But it's safe to assume that it at least has something like an inflatable raft. And if they really needed one, they could always just take a smaller boat with them since they'd be going to the docks anyway.

They're only "required" to carry an inflatable depending on where the vessel operates.

And again, the plan requires reaching the docks in one of the most populous regions in the country (and there's no reason to assume the zombies left), assumes the boats weren't ganked by the millions of people who had better access to them over the past few months, and there's also the fact Lee's shown zero indication he knows a thing about boating.

What does size matter if none of your enemies can reach you? Even assuming one of the walkers spots the boat from the shore, what's he going to do about it? Groan angrily at it? I'm shaking already.

They can keep you from docking, and that's really all they need to do to kill you as the boat plan requires stupidly isolating yourself from even the most basic supplies after having just made a 500+ mile trip. All you're doing is basically putting a wall between yourself and the resources of the mainland. Over millenia of history, people fortified themselves on land and not sea for a reason, the same rationale holds true here. There's nowhere you can go that you're not realistically going to attract attention, and everytime you happen to find that you need to go somewhere else that's fuel you can't replace.

Um... okay. That doesn't actually make any sense, but whatever.

It makes as much sense as saying "well, it could provide...", what I suggested is only slightly less probable (and I covered why, which you coincidentally didn't include). You don't base plans on "could", it's drilled into your head in the military or even this little thing called "life" - you hope for the best, plan for the worse - not the other way around.

Heading to an area that statistically has over 20 times as many (now undead) people and hoping to get security out of the bargain is just as valid a strategy as hoping all your problems go away, likewise in hoping that a boat (which you can't refuel since it likely requires thousands of gallons) is somehow going to provide mobility.

Cyreen

08/25/2012, 04:56 pm

Seriously, other than you two, who the hell is reading these novels? Talk about off topic. Maybe you should private message each other?

Kiel555

08/25/2012, 05:42 pm

Seriously, other than you two, who the hell is reading these novels? Talk about off topic. Maybe you should private message each other?

Hey, I'm reading them. Going to the coast just has way too much risk. It's a moot point in my game though. I failed to "earn" a ride in Kenny's RV. But Lilly wants to stay at the motel and that has risk as well. What to do....

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to all the food. I know it's a game but that part bugs me about e2. I think as long as you have a can opener there is plenty of food to find just about everywhere. I mean, who's eating the food and even if looters took it on ZA +0 days, how far did they get before they got eaten themselves.

dankirk

08/25/2012, 05:53 pm

Team Kenny. The bro-code demands it!

thestalkinghead

08/25/2012, 06:32 pm

Hey, I'm reading them. Going to the coast just has way too much risk. It's a moot point in my game though. I failed to "earn" a ride in Kenny's RV. But Lilly wants to stay at the motel and that has risk as well. What to do....

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to all the food. I know it's a game but that part bugs me about e2. I think as long as you have a can opener there is plenty of food to find just about everywhere. I mean, who's eating the food and even if looters took it on ZA +0 days, how far did they get before they got eaten themselves.

i would say it is lillys poor leadership that is the reason for no food, she had control of the food and didnt inform the others of how much they had until we start the game, and we find out we dont even have enough food for a few bites of food each, what kind of idiot would leave it until you had ran out of food before telling everyone we had ran out?,
with it only being 3 months into the apocalypse and most people dying early on there would be more food than they could eat for a year or so if they had actually looked for it, instead we stay in a near unfortified motel just so we can stay near a pharmacy, that lilly for some reason doesnt want to loot but instead use as a big medicine cabinet for her father.

Merc

08/25/2012, 06:44 pm

Team Kenny. The bro-code demands it!

Words of a sage, right here.

Rock114

08/25/2012, 07:38 pm

Who knows, Macon's residents might have taken most of the town's food then ran when the apocalypse hit? Unlikely, yes. Plus, even with a whole lot of food, that shouldn't stop the group from hunting IMO. They could eat the meat they get while hunting immediately, while keeping Mark's commisary food in reserve as a sort of security net just in case the local game begins to dry up. That seems sensible enough to me, and probably what I would have done.

Cyreen

08/25/2012, 07:49 pm

Keeping in mind they're being careful not to draw walkers with gunfire, none of them are used to foraging or hunting, and so far they've had easy pickings with the commissary food. At the start of episode two, they're at the beginning of a steep learning curve.

Demopan

08/25/2012, 08:29 pm

Kenny was a kind man, but then he got ruthless, and only cares about his family. Kind of like Rick...

CapnJay

08/25/2012, 10:22 pm

Kenny was a kind man, but then he got psychotic, and ONLY cares about his family. Kind of a Dick...

I agree 100 percent

Master of Aeons

08/25/2012, 10:24 pm

I see what you did there.jpg

Xirsche

08/25/2012, 10:31 pm

Yeah, I'm pro-Lilly. Kenny rubbed me the wrong way the first instant he ran off with Duck on Hershel's farm.

thestalkinghead

08/25/2012, 10:35 pm

Yeah, I'm pro-Lilly. Kenny rubbed me the wrong way the first instant he ran off with Duck on Hershel's farm.

i dont get why people blame kenny for running with his child from ZOMBIES!! but dont care that lee just stood there after saving duck

Master of Aeons

08/25/2012, 10:38 pm

I didn't mind that he did that. This world is full of people who aren't heroes. I got mad when he said he was the one who made all the hard decisions. Shane from the TV show was the brave hero who made the hard decisions. Kenny isn't so much that. He even hid after saying that.

I still like him though. I want more than ever to get him back on my side.

Xirsche

08/25/2012, 10:41 pm

i dont get why people blame kenny for running with his child from ZOMBIES!! but dont care that lee just stood there after saving duck

For me, it isn't so much he ran away, it's that he didn't have the commen sense to just set Duck down out of reach of the zombies and help Lee. Instead he ran off and cowered with his son.

I didn't mind that he did that. This world is full of people who aren't heroes. I got mad when he said he was the one who made all the hard decisions. Shane from the TV show was the brave hero who made the hard decisions. Kenny isn't so much that. He even hid after saying that.

I still like him though. I want more than ever to get him back on my side.

If he ever gets any oppurtunities to be redeemed, you let me know. I'll try giving him another chance. And yeah, "hard decisions" my ass..only leeching off of what Lee does for the group. In my game, anyway.

thestalkinghead

08/25/2012, 10:43 pm

For me, it isn't so much he ran away, it's that he didn't have the commen sense to just set Duck down out of reach of the zombies and help Lee. Instead he ran off and cowered with his son.

but what about Lee he wasn't even holding the most important thing in his life in his arms?

Cyreen

08/25/2012, 10:46 pm

I loved Kenny's little speech if you gave him the silent treatment right at the end before finding the car (if you helped Lilly), I think it's the most honest exchange they have. Kenny doesn't recognize Lee as having saved Katjaa and Duck, because Kenny believes he saved Lee first by killing Larry. In his mind, he's the hero.

Xirsche

08/25/2012, 10:49 pm

but what about Lee he wasn't even holding the most important thing in his life in his arms?

That's just it, Clementine was a very safe distance away, and Lee was trying to help Shawn, whereas Kenny ran off out-of-sight with his son instead of helping Lee after putting Duck next to Clem or something.

I loved Kenny's little speech if you gave him the silent treatment right at the end before finding the car, I think it's the most honest exchange they have. Kenny doesn't recognize Lee as having saved Katjaa and Duck, because Kenny believes he saved Lee first by killing Larry. In his mind, he's the hero.

Ugh, that makes me dislike the man even more. His taking Larry's life when they thought he was going to turn just proves him to be a hypocrite.

Master of Aeons

08/25/2012, 10:57 pm

What Cyreen said needs a nice bolding. Every character, in order to be credible and real, needs to feel like they're the hero of the story. Villains, which I think Kenny and Lily are (interchangeably), most especially. Kenny needs a clear point of view and set of morals in the story. They run counter to Lily's equally firm stances.

I'm pretty sure Team Kenny and Team Lily is the way that Telltale is allowing you to choose your own villain. It's a shame that I like Kenny more; I can't make the decisions he does. Someone did need to kill Larry, and they needed to be hated. But just as much as he's the hero of the story, so am I, the player. I can't do that to Lily.

This decision was so many things in my head. Good vs evil, character loyalty, examining things as a writer... The best choice to me is still to let Kenny take the blame alone, even if he is right. I wish there was a line "You did the right thing. You saved us all and took a hit for us. Yes, there's gonna be fallout. But so long as you have my back as much as I have yours, we can get through this."

And then "Keep this gun with you at all times and never be alone with Lily."

thestalkinghead

08/25/2012, 10:58 pm

That's just it, Clementine was a very safe distance away, and Lee was trying to help Shawn, whereas Kenny ran off out-of-sight with his son instead of helping Lee after putting Duck next to Clem or something.

i'm not even a parent and i can understand why he grabbed his kid and ran, first off he probably was checking to see if duck was hurt and second he didnt know hershal was going to come along just at the wrong time with a shotgun and save everyone, if he hadnt they would have all had to run from the zombies.

i dont think that a parent having their first priority being the safety of their child as a bad thing, i would in fact encourage it, even if it meant i was in danger instead of the child

CapnJay

08/25/2012, 11:06 pm

The shawn scenario is kind of like a Duuuuude. Moment your annoyed but you get it. but then he insists everything is about him. I mean come on. at some point i can see Lily inviting Lee for some stress relief in liengeree. Then BOOM kennys on the other side in flower boxers with an rose in his moustache telling Lee to join him instead. It's not always about you Kenny Geez.

Xirsche

08/25/2012, 11:06 pm

i'm not even a parent and i can understand why he grabbed his kid and ran, first off he probably was checking to see if duck was hurt and second he didnt know hershal was going to come along just at the wrong time with a shotgun and save everyone, if he hadnt they would have all had to run from the zombies.

i dont think that a parent having their first priority being the safety of their child as a bad thing, i would in fact encourage it, even if it meant i was in danger instead of the child

Still, he could've had Katjaa check him while he went to help Lee, she was standing right there with Clem!

CapnJay

08/25/2012, 11:10 pm

Still, he could've had Katjaa check him while he went to help Lee, she was standing right there with Clem!

Clems witnessed Kenny being a dick alot. {from an immature perspective] so hypothetically The whole speech about killing bad people could be about Kenny...

Episode 3 Clem Shoots Kenny.

Master of Aeons

08/25/2012, 11:12 pm

Awesome idea. I like it more than my original guess that she'd shoot Lee.

Oh shit oh shit oh shit And DUCK'S STILL ALIVE!

Hudomonkey

08/26/2012, 01:52 am

I usually don't choose teams I just do what I think is right
So I was team Kenny in episode 1 because it is the good thing to help a child and stop people throwing him outside
But in episode 2 Kenny became the evil option and I was forced to go against him even though until then he considered me a good friend who always stuck by him.
I just can't kill in front of Clem or at all really

Rommel49

08/26/2012, 03:16 am

i would say it is lillys poor leadership that is the reason for no food, she had control of the food and didnt inform the others of how much they had until we start the game, and we find out we dont even have enough food for a few bites of food each, what kind of idiot would leave it until you had ran out of food before telling everyone we had ran out?,
with it only being 3 months into the apocalypse and most people dying early on there would be more food than they could eat for a year or so if they had actually looked for it, instead we stay in a near unfortified motel just so we can stay near a pharmacy, that lilly for some reason doesnt want to loot but instead use as a big medicine cabinet for her father.

Actually, I can kinda understand that. It's actually rather common in the military; for the purposes of morale, maintaining order, etc. you don't necessarily tell people exactly how bad the situation is. For example, do you think that in WWII, everybody under Gen. Zhukov's command knew that if they were on the attack and they should happen to run into an area where he knew there was an enemy minefield, his doctrine was to just have them proceed as though it weren't there? It seems counterintuitive, but it probably saved lives (time spent clearing a minefield was time they weren't attacking, and time that the enemy could reinforce the area, shell them with artillery, etc.).

In survival scenarios, keeping calm and focused is one of the most important things to do. When people start panicking, that's typically the time people start making mistakes, rash decisions, and end up dying. The group was running out of food, they hadn't actually run out yet; and if they weren't having any real success hunting or scavenging for food beforehand, putting them in a state of panic about it wasn't going to help their performance in that regard.

Also, as I've covered, the motel provides access to water (which trumps even food as a survival concern). In a survival scenario, once you find a water source, your world effectively ends up revolving around that water source... particularly since the group no longer seems to have access to any form of transportation aside from walking; that also puts something of a limit as to how much the group can carry - lugging big bins full of pills isn't exactly a great option. To a big extent, survivalism is about expending the least amount of effort you can get away with so as to conserve calories; carrying a few bottles of pills around isn't that demanding, trying to gank the entire pharmacy's stock (or even just the stuff worth taking like painkillers, antibiotics, et al.) is a different story.

thestalkinghead

08/26/2012, 03:26 am

Actually, I can kinda understand that. It's actually rather common in the military; for the purposes of morale, maintaining order, etc. you don't necessarily tell people exactly how bad the situation is. For example, do you think that in WWII, everybody under Gen. Zhukov's command knew that if they were on the attack and they should happen to run into an area where he knew there was an enemy minefield, his doctrine was to just have them proceed as though it weren't there? It seems counterintuitive, but it probably saved lives (time spent clearing a minefield was time they weren't attacking, and time that the enemy could reinforce the area, shell them with artillery, etc.).

In survival scenarios, keeping calm and focused is one of the most important things to do. When people start panicking, that's typically the time people start making mistakes, rash decisions, and end up dying. The group was running out of food, they hadn't actually run out yet; and if they weren't having any real success hunting or scavenging for food beforehand, putting them in a state of panic about it wasn't going to help their performance in that regard.

Also, as I've covered, the motel provides access to water (which trumps even food as a survival concern). In a survival scenario, once you find a water source, your world effectively ends up revolving around that water source... particularly since the group no longer seems to have access to any form of transportation aside from walking; that also puts something of a limit as to how much the group can carry - lugging big bins full of pills isn't exactly a great option. To a big extent, survivalism is about expending the least amount of effort you can get away with so as to conserve calories; carrying a few bottles of pills around isn't that demanding, trying to gank the entire pharmacy's stock (or even just the stuff worth taking like painkillers, antibiotics, et al.) is a different story.

but would you honestly say that it helped the group to not tell them they had ran out of food until people were dizzy from hunger and they had no food left, i would say it is a better idea to search for food while you have the energy to do it, not just wait until everybody is weak from hunger before saying i cant handle this responsibility any more because we have ran out of food now.

also that water source cant be infinite it must be in a water tower or something considering there is no power, i bet she would wait until we ran out of water before telling everybody

magodesky

08/26/2012, 06:29 am

Well Rommel, I'm just going to walk away from the boat debate since you seem to now be going back to points I've already addressed. I explained in my last post why it's impossible for the motel to still have running water. If you want to believe it does anyway (powered by magic, I suppose), then that's your game. I've pointed out a few different ways they could get back ashore if they needed to. And if you actually believe that s'mores and bacon falling out of the sky is on the same level of realism as boats moving on water, then I just have no idea how to respond to that. But I'm not going to keep going through the same arguments, and we've strayed pretty far off-topic anyway. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Kenny doesn't recognize Lee as having saved Katjaa and Duck, because Kenny believes he saved Lee first by killing Larry. In his mind, he's the hero.

The fact that Kenny takes credit for being the hero made me mad at him probably more than anything. It's like, let's examine that statement for a minute. It was Lee who found a way out of the meat locker. Lee who faced down all of the St. Johns. Lee who rescued Katjaa and Duck. Lilly tried to revive Larry. Lilly helped Lee fight the St. Johns. Clementine crawled through the vent to let the group out of the meat locker. Heck, even Larry, the dead guy, provided the tool Lee needed to access the vent to escape. What did Kenny do? He freaked out, murdered one of our people, hid in barn stall while Lee and Lilly fought Danny, then ran directly into a gunshot. Yeah. That's the stuff of legends alright, Kenny.

Actually, I can kinda understand that. It's actually rather common in the military; for the purposes of morale, maintaining order, etc. you don't necessarily tell people exactly how bad the situation is. For example, do you think that in WWII, everybody under Gen. Zhukov's command knew that if they were on the attack and they should happen to run into an area where he knew there was an enemy minefield, his doctrine was to just have them proceed as though it weren't there?

Honestly, that rationale would just make me hate Lilly more. They're not in the military, and Lilly's not their commander. Withholding important information just so she can play general is both insulting and dangerous.

Cyreen

08/26/2012, 09:38 am

mz3

08/26/2012, 10:18 am

Team Lilly forever

JCMcAdams84

08/26/2012, 11:34 am

Cyreen

08/26/2012, 07:57 pm

JCMcAdams84

08/26/2012, 09:46 pm

If you didn't make a choice and stayed silent, Lilly completely endorses throwing Duck out. She was smiling at her father, not Clem, at the start of the second episode, and on my second run through when I "helped" Kenny (not my preference), I did not feel good leaving Clem in the barn with Lily and I'm thankful her protection wasn't tested, particularly as she was quite prepared to watch Lee die. Watching Jolene's video was the first time I'd seen Lilly talk to Clem at all in the first two episodes; she doesn't strike me as particularly maternal.

I know, all of what you said is true, in some plays, just a small example of all the little things that change based on the things you do. I was talking about in mine and that's what I based the decision on for my main Lee.

thestalkinghead

08/26/2012, 11:10 pm

Just for the record, at the beginning of episode 2, Lilly states they have enough food to last for a week, if rationed. The food Lee handed out wasn't the LAST of the food, just that day's rations as decided by the Lilly, who wasn't "military", she worked as an administrative secretary for the military.

how is not feeding everyone at least a bit of food each day a good strategy for rationing food, a food lottery every day where not everybody gets some food is the most ridiculous rationing strategy ever, and anyway as i said if the food situation is so bad, it is the time to tell everyone and look for more food, not just eat less and less each day until you haven't got the energy to look for more

Rommel49

08/26/2012, 11:50 pm

Well Rommel, I'm just going to walk away from the boat debate since you seem to now be going back to points I've already addressed. I explained in my last post why it's impossible for the motel to still have running water. If you want to believe it does anyway (powered by magic, I suppose), then that's your game.

Except you didn't actually address them, saying you did doesn't make it true, and anybody with eyes can see it. I've also covered why the place would have to have its own onsite supply; unless you think they're lugging around a quarter-ton of water every three days, keep open flames indoors for disinfecting it (or they're mysteriously finding bottles of Arrowhead but not canned goods) since there's no campfire outside, and the fact the farm has running water (which is one of its luxuries that nobody in Lee's group comments on), etc.

If you're going to flee the debate because you can't answer the points, that's fine, but don't be disingenuous about it. Don't lie and say you did stuff you obviously didn't.

Just for the record, at the beginning of episode 2, Lilly states they have enough food to last for a week, if rationed. The food Lee handed out wasn't the LAST of the food, just that day's rations as decided by the Lilly, who wasn't "military", she worked as an administrative secretary for the military.

Pretty much what I said, they were running low, she tells Lee as much when she has him hand out the day's rations, they hadn't actually run out yet. However, Lilly was actually in the military (Chair Force, but still), and it's not a bad standard to follow.

Of course, the thing that's kinda been nagging at me is why they apparently haven't considered going after "easy" calories if they're starving, e.g. insects like ants and crickets - far easier to find and catch, and they do add up, high in protein and calcium, etc.

Cyreen

08/27/2012, 12:05 am

"Clementine, honey, eat your grasshopper." I don't think they're quite there yet.

...anyway as i said if the food situation is so bad, it is the time to tell everyone and look for more food, not just eat less and less each day until you haven't got the energy to look for more

But that's precisely what they were doing. Chances are that wasn't the first day they'd gone hunting. They're just not very good at it yet.

thestalkinghead

08/27/2012, 12:09 am

they just need to look for food, the strategy of keeping the status quo is not a good one, obviously eating bugs is a way of staying alive, but searching for canned foods in some warehouse area is a better strategy

funyahns

08/27/2012, 01:30 am

I am not on either of those teams. If anything I want a team Lee, I would take Clem, Doug/Carley and split from that group. Way too much bad stuff has gone down and there are a lot of hard feelings. Besides I feel as if my Lee has done more to lead than those two combined.

Rommel49

08/27/2012, 05:35 am

"Clementine, honey, eat your grasshopper." I don't think they're quite there yet.

If it's a survival situation, there's no particularly good reason to exclude the option at any stage, if nothing else, it'll stretch out your supply of foods that'll keep for a while. Squeamishness about that sort of thing can end up killing you.

Seriously, if I was starving I'd eat sand off the ground if it wasn't for the fact I know there's no protein value in it.

they just need to look for food, the strategy of keeping the status quo is not a good one, obviously eating bugs is a way of staying alive, but searching for canned foods in some warehouse area is a better strategy

They've been looking for food, that wasn't exactly the first time they've been out hunting, they're just not particularly good at it. Hell, the whole reason Lilly let Mark stick around was because he happened to have enough food to feed the group in the interim.

The best strategy in a survival scenario is the one that expends the fewest calories while providing the greatest chances of success, particularly since the group no longer seems to have a working vehicle. Any warehouse that might have canned foods within walking distance of the group was also within walking distance of thousands of other people, by contrast, odds are they wouldn't have to go any further than the motel's parking lot to find an anthill. :p

thestalkinghead

08/27/2012, 05:49 am

If it's a survival situation, there's no particularly good reason to exclude the option at any stage, if nothing else, it'll stretch out your supply of foods that'll keep for a while. Squeamishness about that sort of thing can end up killing you.

Seriously, if I was starving I'd eat sand off the ground if it wasn't for the fact I know there's no protein value in it.

They've been looking for food, that wasn't exactly the first time they've been out hunting, they're just not particularly good at it. Hell, the whole reason Lilly let Mark stick around was because he happened to have enough food to feed the group in the interim.

The best strategy in a survival scenario is the one that expends the fewest calories while providing the greatest chances of success, particularly since the group no longer seems to have a working vehicle. Any warehouse that might have canned foods within walking distance of the group was also within walking distance of thousands of other people, by contrast, odds are they wouldn't have to go any further than the motel's parking lot to find an anthill. :p

there is no reason why there wouldn't be thousands of working cars within walking distance and obviously the calories obtained within canned goods is going to be so much more than an anthill that the effort would be worth it, the only reason they haven't moved in 3 months is because lilly didnt want to move far from the pharmacy because of larry, now he is dead they will actually get off there ass and try to survive not just stay in one place and slowly starve to death

magodesky

08/27/2012, 06:49 am

Team Lilly, She seems to be connecting with Clem the most and Kenny really only cares about his family, Lilly even says (depending on what you do) that she didn't agree with her dad about tossing out Duck. In the crazy ladies video at the end of episode 2 you see Lilly talking with Clem as Lee pushes a car to block one of the entrances and at the start of the episode she even smiles at her. She also protects Clem regardless of what you do to her dad. Honestly, that's my biggest reason, she seems to be the most protective of Clem after Lee.

I'm not sure that briefly acknowledging Clem's existence really constitutes "protectiveness." Especially considering she was in favor of leaving Clem and everyone else that was with her to become zombie chow on the streets of Macon. It seems pretty clear to me that Lilly's compassion for anyone in the group besides Larry only extends as far as those people are willing to do whatever she tell them to and as long as they have a readily accessible food supply. In a crunch, Lilly's one of the last people I would trust Clem with.

If you're going to flee the debate because you can't answer the points, that's fine, but don't be disingenuous about it. Don't lie and say you did stuff you obviously didn't.

Sure, okay. If you have to frame it as me "fleeing the debate" to feel good about it, then you go right ahead. The fact is, I'd be more than happy to continue this debate, but I'm simply not interested in filling this thread with pages upon pages of just talking in circles. I'd certainly be willing to consider your point if you could explain to me, for instance, how a motel in a city without power could still have running water. Just repeating, "well, of course they have water" isn't much of a response. For that kind of repetition, please see my previous posts where these points were already addressed. You don't need me to create a new post for that.

Of course, the thing that's kinda been nagging at me is why they apparently haven't considered going after "easy" calories if they're starving, e.g. insects like ants and crickets - far easier to find and catch, and they do add up, high in protein and calcium, etc.

I mentioned this another thread, but part of the problem here is food prejudice. There's quite a few historical cases of starvation where there was food available that was perfectly edible, but no one thinks to eat it because it doesn't fall under their cultural definition of "food." There are other cultures that eat insects regularly. But I think in our culture, a lot of people probably would die before it occurred to them to eat bugs, unless they had some specific survival or anthropological training that covered that. They just wouldn't even consider that to be an available option. It seems to me that a lot of the trouble Lee's group is facing stems more from food prejudice than an actual lack of food.

Kiel555

08/27/2012, 07:59 am

Sure, okay. If you have to frame it as me "fleeing the debate" to feel good about it, then you go right ahead. The fact is, I'd be more than happy to continue this debate, but I'm simply not interested in filling this thread with pages upon pages of just talking in circles. I'd certainly be willing to consider your point if you could explain to me, for instance, how a motel in a city without power could still have running water. Just repeating, "well, of course they have water" isn't much of a response. For that kind of repetition, please see my previous posts where these points were already addressed. You don't need me to create a new post for that.

I mentioned this another thread, but part of the problem here is food prejudice. There's quite a few historical cases of starvation where there was food available that was perfectly edible, but no one thinks to eat it because it doesn't fall under their cultural definition of "food." There are other cultures that eat insects regularly. But I think in our culture, a lot of people probably would die before it occurred to them to eat bugs, unless they had some specific survival or anthropological training that covered that. They just wouldn't even consider that to be an available option. It seems to me that a lot of the trouble Lee's group is facing stems more from food prejudice than an actual lack of food.

It's feasible that the hotel still has water pressure. They could be in a pressure zone where no one hit a fire hydrant and depressurized the system. Even without power, water wells have back up generators that would turn on to bring system pressure back to say 100 psi then shut off. With only 10 people drinking the water it could last a long time. Since Lilly and Mark are military they probably know to add a cap full of bleech to a gallon of water for disinfection purposes...assuming they have bleech of course.

back to the boat ride, upon further consideration it may be possible that some elements of the Navy survived. Not a carrier battle group per say but a few ships since they had ocean instead of sandbags and K-rail between them and the walker hoards. Might make the trip to the coast worth the risk if you can link up with them somehow.

I'm in favor of holding off on eating bugs at this time...food prejudice mainly. It's not like the hotel is under siege by masses of walkers. Anyone can still come and go a they please. Just need to work up the nerve to search nearby cars, homes, buildings etc. I thought Kenny's truck was still working.

Rommel49

08/27/2012, 08:04 am

there is no reason why there wouldn't be thousands of working cars within walking distance and obviously the calories obtained within canned goods is going to be so much more than an anthill that the effort would be worth it, the only reason they haven't moved in 3 months is because lilly didnt want to move far from the pharmacy because of larry, now he is dead they will actually get off there ass and try to survive not just stay in one place and slowly starve to death

Any cars within walking distance of the group have been sitting unused and unmaintained in the Georgia sun for months on end; not exactly ideal conditions to keep a vehicle in running condition (particularly if the battery was old and/or weak). Plus, you'd need to find one with keys.

You missed the "greatest chances of success" part; you're far more likely to find edible bugs than unlooted cans of food while still making the expenditure (and potential risk) worth the gamble. If you could find an untouched twinkie factory that'd provide you with more calories than a few cans of food too - the problem is the "if you can find..." bit.

The pharmacy isn't the only reason Lilly's staying at the motel; it's also relatively secure, provides shelter, has access to water, etc. short of Hershel or the St. Johns farm (atleast before the fence failed), it's the best place we've seen or heard of thus far. As the saying goes "there's no ideal spot in survival", some places just tend to suck less.

thestalkinghead

08/27/2012, 08:15 am

Any cars within walking distance of the group have been sitting unused and unmaintained in the Georgia sun for months on end; not exactly ideal conditions to keep a vehicle in running condition (particularly if the battery was old and/or weak). Plus, you'd need to find one with keys.

You missed the "greatest chances of success" part; you're far more likely to find edible bugs than unlooted cans of food while still making the expenditure (and potential risk) worth the gamble. If you could find an untouched twinkie factory that'd provide you with more calories than a few cans of food too - the problem is the "if you can find..." bit.

The pharmacy isn't the only reason Lilly's staying at the motel; it's also relatively secure, provides shelter, has access to water, etc. short of Hershel or the St. Johns farm (atleast before the fence failed), it's the best place we've seen or heard of thus far. As the saying goes "there's no ideal spot in survival", some places just tend to suck less.

you already sound insane and the ZA hasn't started, you are far more likely to find canned food over a liveable amount of bugs to eat, cars don't just break if you don't use them and you don't need keys, survival is about energy gained over energy expended, bugs aren't as energy efficient as canned food, you could fill a car with more calories then all the bugs you could find in a week and use less energy to collect it

Red Panda

08/27/2012, 08:20 am

I've been following this debate and I think we can all agree in a zombie apocalypse we're all screwed.

Rommel49

08/27/2012, 09:25 am

you already sound insane and the ZA hasn't started, you are far more likely to find canned food over a liveable amount of bugs to eat, cars don't just break if you don't use them and you don't need keys, survival is about energy gained over energy expended, bugs aren't as energy efficient as canned food, you could fill a car with more calories then all the bugs you could find in a week and use less energy to collect it

Not really, you can find bugs anywhere and everywhere; odds are you can find an anthill within a couple hundred feet of your house if you look, assuming you don't have one in your yard, likewise, crickets are pretty common. Unlooted cans of food in a disaster scenario? That's far harder (and again, where "greater chances of success" come in), that's the part you seem to miss - far more people have had access to it and likely far earlier than you did.

Put simply, you're looking at 0 calories if you can't find that canned food or it's inaccessible - you're not winning any calorie game at that rate. It's that simple.

Also, you've evidently never seen a car sit derelict for months then tried to start it. Yes, they can and do fail to start after simply sitting for that period of time, especially when unmaintained and left out in the sun in a hot climate (like say, Georgia), and particularly if the battery's old and/or weak (since it won't hold a charge). Likewise, nobody in the group has given any indication they know how to hotwire a car (oh yeah, and they lack basic tools), and they can't exactly call Triple A or Onstar either.

thestalkinghead

08/27/2012, 09:48 am

you can start a car with out a battery a "push start" tools will be in garages and cars as well, if we were in a group in the ZA i would go off and gather supplies with other like minded people (while eating bugs and whatever i can find) gather a car full of food and return to you and you bug eaters, then you can have some of our high calorie canned food, but that doesn't mean i wont be giving you dirty looks with each bite :)

edit: lol i just typed in "calories in an anthill" in google (i wondered how much there was) and i found my comments on the first page, i guess its not a common topic :)

but 100 grams of cricket contains: 121 calories

skepticalguy90

08/29/2012, 02:49 am

Team Kenny, and it's not close.

The13thRonin

08/29/2012, 04:16 am

Whoever is team Kenny is insane... Kenny is massively UNHINGED... He knew that killing Larry wasn't the right thing to do. Directly afterwards he even begins to state that "I... I panicked." But doesn't get it fully out. Kenny would be the first to kill anybody who threatened Duck or his wife even if they were dying/bit. Larry might have been a bit rough around the edges, some might say a pain in the neck but Lilly is for the most part the fairest and most pragmatic person in the group. She's the one who has to ration the food. Sure she goes too far sometimes but not half as far as Kenny is willing to go.

ItsMeArmani

08/29/2012, 04:26 am

skepticalguy90

08/29/2012, 03:39 pm

lol you haven't played episode 3 yet have you my friend? I look forward to reading your thoughts on "team Lilly" after you've played through it. *Dis gon b gud*

This

TrickyD

08/29/2012, 03:40 pm

I was on Lilly's side until Ep3.

CapnJay

08/29/2012, 03:44 pm

So now i'm Left with kenny. whose broken but only after i chose Lilys side. Like I fucking predicted So as always it's Team Clem

magodesky

08/29/2012, 09:22 pm

lol you haven't played episode 3 yet have you my friend? I look forward to reading your thoughts on "team Lilly" after you've played through it. *Dis gon b gud*

Honestly, Episode 3 made me hate Kenny even more. A bunch of walkers break through the door and are all over Lee, and the jerk just looks over at the exit like he's about to leave me behind. Doesn't lift a finger to help. The only reason I didn't fight him when I had the chance was because by that point, I kind of felt sorry for the guy, given what he was going through at the time. Actually, I may do a second playthrough just so I can punch him.

It just so happens that Lilly manages to become even more unhinged than Kenny. So once again, it's Team Lee FTW.

Overwatch

08/29/2012, 09:26 pm

Neither. They're both fucking assholes.

Merc

08/30/2012, 02:04 am

Neither. They're both fucking assholes.

You leave Kenny out of this. He's my bro. He's up to saving my life 4 times now. :(

Dildor

08/30/2012, 02:23 am

Yikes, looks like team lilly wasn't the best way to go huh? I left that bitch on the side of the road next to Carly's body.. :|

Does anything really change, can you bring her with you to the train?

ELBEaston

08/30/2012, 02:35 am

Does anything really change, can you bring her with you to the train?

No, she steals the RV once you grab the pencil.

ELBEaston

08/30/2012, 02:36 am

You know, I think I got to go for team Lee now. Even Clem has been lying.

StrawberryRainPop

08/30/2012, 02:48 am

Episode 1: Kenny
Episode 2: Leaning on Lily
Episode3 : Lily at first, then Kenny again...cause... YOU KNOW

Dyslexsick

08/30/2012, 04:54 am

Team Carley. Fuck Lilly.

TF_Havens

08/30/2012, 04:56 am

Team mustache man !!!!!!

incubus4282

08/30/2012, 05:56 am

Who's side are you on? Why?

I was team Kenny until episode 2. His all or nothing attitude made me mad. Plus, Lilly actually seemed to be kinder and more rational in regards to the farm. She got a weird vibe, wanted food to go, and I was with her on both sentiments.

It's kind of interesting how the percentage points of the Kenny-supporters increased after the release of Episode 3.

It's team Clementine for me since the Salt-Kenny-Larry incidence at the end of episode 2.

Milosuperspesh

08/30/2012, 06:22 am

No, she steals the RV once you grab the pencil.

hmm maybe a spoiler there ;)

You know, I think I got to go for team Lee now. Even Clem has been lying.

yeah i know right ? BAD CLEM !

Cooperal

08/30/2012, 06:52 am

***EPISODE 3 SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!!!***

Ep 1:
The events of each episode has had me pacing back and forth. By the end of episode 1 Kenny felt like a true equal. Someone that had issues and ideas in common with Lee. Like the guy that would help if he was free to help. Which felt proven right when he lifted me up and out the Pharmacy. Needless to say, I was pro-Kenny.

---------------------------------------

Ep 2:
Episode 2 started me out with sitting on the fence where I wanted to think about the present rather than worry about what we do if we find MORE survivors later. Lilly seemed a lot more calm in this episode and she appeared to show a side that I never caught in the first episode. I try to keep as many people alive as I can so long as those people arn't more dangerous to us alive. I tried to save Larry and in doing so was hoping to gain Lillys favour, and therefore hopefully some leverage to keep her under control (and perhaps even Larry).

Kennys lack of patience for Larry had me pissed in quite a major way. And other than those few seconds of shock and self-disgust, Kenny remained adamant that he took the only correct answer. He later just stood by and watched as Danny was having the advantage over me in the fight, of course in reaction to my compassion about Larry. And then he proceeded to wander off with little communication or planning. He went dark.

I turned down the looting of the car later on but I hold absolutely nothing against Kenny and his family picking it up. Infact the devil inside me hoped he would make the opposite choice. As for Lilly at that point, she seemed very out of character. She had an "only look after ourselves and f*** the rest" at the start, very vocal about letting Ben and his company in, but when it comes to looting an abandoned car she sees it as "wrong"?

While I agreed on the second point, she doesn't seem to know what she wants, and overall I didn't think her experience at the farm could change her perspective for long. At this point however, I was now on Team Lilly.

-----------------------------------------------

Ep 3:
Well where to start. Kenny made it clear to me that he was hoping Lilly would lighten the tension. Very much agreed. Also on his approach to handling the screaming woman, seeing as how she was already bit before I had the choice. We had a bunch of people counting on us to make it back safe, she wasn't going to.

With the impending threat of bandits in mind, I was starting to see things Kennys way, in terms of moving. Lilly scored some points by trusting me with what she'd learned about our supplies. Not stable enough to treat her as I treated Kenny in Ep 1 but still.

The decider was up next when we took off in the RV. Her jump to conclusions was way beyond rational. To my suprise she didn't suspect for a second that Kenny or his family seemed to have a motive. It was straight to Carley and then Ben.

She then shot Carley in the face. She felt what she did was right. On a personal note, my Lee was getting emotionally involved with Carley. She used the fact that me and Kenny were both murderers to justify her own actions. But the difference was:

-She shot someone who was nowhere near close to becoming an immediate threat.
-The person she was looking for was the only reason those bandits didn't come sooner.
-It was an emotionally driven, intended, unnecessary murder.
-And most importantly, although we didn't know it at the time, she did NOT accomplish her goal because she killed the wrong person entirely.

The reason for Carleys death was unforgivable and was a massive blow to me. Lilly was beyond my control despite everything. All care for her well-being was trashed. She was now one of those people that were more dangerous to us alive than dead. She was left behind. The fact she said "But I'll die" was laughable. I confused her self-centeredness just as a strong will initially. It made me feel I had taken the wrong side in EP 2. Had it been a choice I would've took the time to tie her to a tree.

Even though recent events made me feel like I owed Kenny, I fought him in the drivers cabin. He wouldn't budge, in opposition to everyones best interest.

With little left to lose, I lent Kenny as much support as he needed. With some regret of not taking his side more in Ep 2 (except with Larry), I felt we were moving back into eachothers good books. For now it's team Kenny again, and feels more set in stone.

But time will tell if a new division will arise with these new members on board. Even Bens allegiance still seems entirely ambiguous. If he ever hides anything again, the only way he'll be following us is if we all go to hell as a result.

Dildor

08/30/2012, 09:26 am

I'm glad I switched over to team Kenny before this episode came out. My initial reaction was to save Lilly's dad, but after seeing what she does to Carly, I'm never gonna try and save that old fuck. Besides, with everything that happens, Kenny definitely needs a friend right now (poor guy.)

FictionRaider007

08/30/2012, 12:23 pm

I like the theory. But, you appear to be wrong. Even if you help Lilly instead of abandonning her in episode 3 she runs off and steals all your supplies in the RV.

Couldn't_Make_It_Up

08/30/2012, 12:58 pm

Always knew Lily was a massive douchebag!!

dubesor

08/30/2012, 01:03 pm

Depends on the episode.

Telltale is pretty inconsistent with the characters.
Ep 1 Kenny is OK Lilly is fine
Ep2 Kenny is a complete douchebag and Lilly is the only choice
Ep3 Lilly goes crazy and murders groupmembers so you have to go with Kenny.

YamiRaziel

08/30/2012, 06:12 pm

Team Lily, of course. Kenny brought all the shit on this group. Except for Mark and Doug, he's like directly and indirectly responsible for each death in this group. Everything fell apart because of him.

HeyMyNameIsRyan

08/30/2012, 06:13 pm

Neither. Kenny's too rash and Lily's too...conservative?

Dante30

08/31/2012, 12:16 am

Don'tLickTheSaltLick

08/31/2012, 01:52 am

I've been Team Lilly since she came into the game, and even in episode 3 i STILL support her. I'd rather have got it in with her than Carley.Lilly is a great leader and always did what's best for the group, even though she had tough decisions to make...Seemed like she was always stressed out cause of it, but when you talked to her one on one, she's a caring genuine person. I could never be on Team Kenny cause of what he did to Lilly's dad and how in episode 3 he almost left Lee to die under that door! The reason why Lilly is the way she is in episode 3 was all Kenny's fault for being too stubborn and rash killing her father without regarding Lilly's feelings...he wasn't even gonna turn i bet.

Well the thing is, we didn't know if he was gonna turn, or if he was even dead. Kenny killed Larry because he had a hunch. Carley was no threat to Lilly yet she shot her in the face at point-blank just because she had a hunch, although I think what Lilly did was worse. Yes, she is a nice person when you talk to her but she seems to have become more rational like Kenny.

It seems they could take a page out of Lee's book and actually try to evaluate the situation before acting too swiftly.

YamiRaziel

08/31/2012, 05:36 am

I've been Team Lilly since she came into the game, and even in episode 3 i STILL support her. I'd rather have got it in with her than Carley.Lilly is a great leader and always did what's best for the group, even though she had tough decisions to make...Seemed like she was always stressed out cause of it, but when you talked to her one on one, she's a caring genuine person. I could never be on Team Kenny cause of what he did to Lilly's dad and how in episode 3 he almost left Lee to die under that door! The reason why Lilly is the way she is in episode 3 was all Kenny's fault for being too stubborn and rash killing her father without regarding Lilly's feelings...he wasn't even gonna turn i bet.

Wow, I'm not alone it seems :D

Don'tLickTheSaltLick, you see it that way, but to me having a traitor in the group who brought 15 bandits + walkers is much bigger threat than having Larry possible turn and possible hurt anyone.

LokiHavok

08/31/2012, 05:50 am

Well the thing is, we didn't know if he was gonna turn, or if he was even dead. Kenny killed Larry because he had a hunch. Carley was no threat to Lilly yet she shot her in the face at point-blank just because she had a hunch, although I think what Lilly did was worse. Yes, she is a nice person when you talk to her but she seems to have become more rational like Kenny.

It seems they could take a page out of Lee's book and actually try to evaluate the situation before acting too swiftly.
Lilly actually shot Carley because of what Carley said to her, in the moments leading up to it. It was a act of utter rage on Lilly's part. Her ego was broken plus she was dealign with the loss of her dad. She just used the bandit/traitor thing as fuel to the fire. Either that, or she had her mind made up any way.

Team Kenny all the way tho. I hated Lilly and her dad. Both assholes, altho Lilly was the more likable of the two.

Dante30

08/31/2012, 08:56 am

When Carley was saying all that crap to her outside of the RV,I was honestly hoping that Lilly was gonna hit her and start a cat fight:)

KMatt

08/31/2012, 09:16 am

Neither. Kenny's too rash and Lily's too...conservative?

Conservative?

I'm from the UK and as a rule conservatives don't shoot people in the head for no reason.

When Carley was saying all that crap to her outside of the RV,I was honestly hoping that Lilly was gonna hit her and start a cat fight:)

Cat Gun Fight!

YamiRaziel

08/31/2012, 09:18 am

It's funny also how because of Carley's death everybody forgets how Kenny was screaming "Leave Lily, let's go leave her". He was ready to let her die in there after she actually saved our asses.
People really look at this one only way. Carley was the scapegoat of all the problems in the group. She never really helped solving any of them so until I found out it was Ben I thought it could've been Carley as well. Those problems were there long before Carley died...

notfadeaway

08/31/2012, 09:19 am

Idk, I've been team Lilly from the start because of how badass she is in the comics. I've really been enjoying watching her slip and learning a little more about how she came to be the ruthless-survivor type that Rick meets.

LokiHavok

08/31/2012, 09:20 am

Conservative?

I'm from the UK and as a rule conservatives don't shoot people in the head for no reason.

Cat Gun Fight!

Welcom to a game set in teh Deep South lol

YamiRaziel

08/31/2012, 01:21 pm

Fluffyburrito

09/01/2012, 08:50 am

I felt this was too long for the review thread.

Before every episode, this message pops up:
The game series adapts to the choices you make. The story is tailored by how you play.

Before I go into Episode 3, I that it's important to highlight episode 1 and 2.

Episode 1:

Episode 1 was all about starting relationships. You determined what kind of attitude Lee would have, how you treated Clem, and got to meet the characters you'd be spending most of the game with. This episode was brilliant in that you spent just enough time doing things with each character that you just started to get attached. Then, everything comes to a head at the end of the episode. You have to choose between Doug and Carley.

Choices that mattered: (In the scope of the entire game)

-Doug vs Carley
-Took Larry's or Kenny's side entering the drug store
-Act like a jerk to Clem or treat her well
-Be honest to the group or dishonest

Episode 2:

Episode 2 further strengths or weakens the relationships you have started. At this point, you really have to choose between Kenny or Lilly. You agree or disagree about leaving the hotel and, in a more shocking moment, determine if you will murder Larry because he "might" turn into a zombie. It really forces you to decide if you're willing to do whatever it takes to minimize risks and selfishly look out for just yourself and Clem or if you're going to do your best to help others despite the consequences.

After leaving the farm, Kenny confronts you about what choice you made in the freezer. "There's going to be fallout," he said. And I believed him.

Choices that mattered:

-Tried to save Larry or helped kill him
-Be honest or dishonest
-Continue to treat Clem well or treat her poorly
-Further travel along the path of the "dark side" by acting like a violent, selfish murderer that probably belonged in prison or continue to be a good person

Episode 3: Kenny vs Lilly

The choices you made in the first two games have been leading up to this moment.

But... where's the fallout? Lilly treats you almost the same regardless of killing Larry or not. It's ok though, I'm sure something will happen later.

Bandits ruin your day and you leave the hotel in the RV. The RV stops further along the road and it's time for Lilly to confront Ben.

Lilly has snapped, and with everything that has happened... combined with Larry's death... understandably so. Unfortunately, she snaps too far and pulls out a gun.

Can I convince her to put it down? I mean, I've been in camp Lilly since the beginning! I've treated Larry the best I could despite him being a jerk to me, I tried to help Lilly save the guy, and I did agree that we should stay at the hotel. I wasn't even a skeptic about the traitor; I trusted her and agreed to help find the guy.

Does any of that matter? Did any of the choices I make affect the game or was it tailored to how I played?

No. She shoots at Ben, killing Doug, regardless. (Or, uncharacteristically, shoots Carley in the face.) If you were a jerk to Lilly and sided with Kenny every time she shoots at Ben. If you treated Lilly like she was Jesus and made the best decisions of all time she still shoots at Ben.

I'm... I'm sure your relationship with Kenny and Lilly gets resolved later right? Probably when deciding what to do with Lilly?

Nope. Lilly kicks you out of the RV and leaves when you get to the train. The game even gives you a small hope that maybe there's a choice when you can "agree" to go with her, but then she still boots you out. The heck?! Why would Lilly just leave me with "fair-weather friend" Kenny after all I've done for her?

The decisions with, seemingly, the most lasting consequences in the first two episodes now don't matter. Lilly will go crazy and kill Doug or Carley regardless of what you did, and will leave you regardless of what you did. You now have no reason to replay episode 1 or 2 to do things differently.

What if, instead of butchering any decision making you had done the first two games, the game now splits into two paths? What if, when you're exploring the train with Lilly/Clem Kenny hops into the RV with his family and drives off? From a story standpoint this even makes sense. If you've taken Lilly's side every time maybe KENNY panics and believes he can't trust you two and leaves. Sure, they would have had to keep up with writing dialogue for both Kenny and Lilly but with a two and a half month wait (despite originally being promised a monthly wait) between episodes, they could easily keep up with it. They wouldn't have even had to worry about Duck and Kat dialogue anymore.

What if, instead of going berserk, you can convince Lilly to stand down? Sure, Doug/Carley could still die. Deaths happen. But they could die later in the episode in a different way or even in another episode. Heck, maybe they make it the entire way.

But NO. The writers don't want Doug/Carley to live and wanted to get rid of Lilly. After playing through the first few episodes thinking that choices I made mattered, episode 3 was all about the choice of the writers. Every choice you made regarding your crew is ruined in 10 minutes.

The final straw for me was the finale of Episode 3. The game presents Omir and Christie both in danger, ruining beside the train. I immediately thought back to episode 1.

"I can only choose one again," I thought. I choose Christie. Omir still makes it. Okay, so what was the point of this choice? One of them makes a comment at me that I should have saved the other first? That's the "game altering" choice I'm making now? This is tailor the game to this choice?

You know what the game is about now? The writers' choices, not yours. The writers choose Kenny or Lilly for you this episode, not you. The game is now NOT tailored to how you play and the decisions to make don't matter.

Choices that mattered:

-Clem is wearing or not wearing new clothing.

The game series adapts to the choices the writers make. The story is an interactive movie.

jtlcr777

09/01/2012, 08:57 am

I totally agree. Episode three sort of threw every thing you did in with character relationships in the previous ones out the window. They dont even matter anymore.

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 08:59 am

...................................

Choices that mattered:

-Clem is wearing or not wearing new clothing.

The game series adapts to the choices the writers make. The story is an interactive movie.

You realize with the wording they give before every episode, it could be in reference to just the dialogue choices you make and still be accurate, right?
The dialogue affects who Lee is perceived by other people and how they interact with him. Hence the game is being tailored to those decisions and how you're playing Lee.

You obviously expected a hell of a lot more from it and I'm sure you feel mislead, but in reality it is exactly what they advertise it as.

thestalkinghead

09/01/2012, 09:05 am

I totally agree. Episode three sort of threw every thing you did in with character relationships in the previous ones out the window. They dont even matter anymore.

i dont think they expected us to feel responsible for the whole group, if you just think of it as a story about one person (Lee) and his sidekick (Clementine), everything that happens only matters to lee and Clementine, so people dying didn't affect those people, it affected Lee.

but that isn't how most people saw it, i saw Lee as me and i wanted to affect the world around me to suit me, not have the world affect me

Fluffyburrito

09/01/2012, 09:06 am

The dialogue affects who Lee is perceived by other people and how they interact with him. Hence the game is being tailored to those decisions and how you're playing Lee.

Expect that even with this interpretation, it doesn't. Despite how people perceive you and how you interact with others, the exact same scenario happens in Episode 3 in exactly the same way. People treat Lee the same regardless of the dialogue.

Honestly, with how long we have to wait between episodes and lack of communication from TT in general I don't expect too much. I just know that I sure as heck am not going to buy an episodic game anymore and definitely wouldn't be purchasing episode 4 or 5 as a standalone after episode 3. The only reason I'm seeing this through is because the package included the last two episodes.

The game feels like it ended at 3. The only thing left is finding Clem's parents.

Oh yeah, and she didn't trust you enough to tell you about the radio despite how you treated her. Huh. I guess she could have told you instead of you finding out at the end of Episode 3 if she trusted you or something, but that would have meant something you did mattered.

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 09:12 am

Expect that even with this interpretation, it doesn't. Despite how people perceive you and how you interact with others, the exact same scenario happens in Episode 3 in exactly the same way. People treat Lee the same regardless of the dialogue.

Honestly, with how long we have to wait between episodes and lack of communication from TT in general I don't expect too much. I just know that I sure as heck am not going to buy an episodic game anymore and definitely wouldn't be purchasing episode 4 or 5 as a standalone after episode 3. The only reason I'm seeing this through is because the package included the last two episodes.

The game feels like it ended at 3. The only thing left is finding Clem's parents.

Oh yeah, and she didn't trust you enough to tell you about the radio despite how you treated her. Huh. I guess she could have told you instead of you finding out at the end of Episode 3 if she trusted you or something, but that would have meant something you did mattered.

Really? In my play through, if I kept Lilly along, when she steals the RV I get dialogue about how she could have killed me when my back was to her getting the pencil.

I was pro Kenny the whole time. If I was pro Lilly, I heard she offers to take you and Clem along to get you to leave the RV instead before taking off.

Same outcome, 2 different tailored experiences.

I've also read from pro lilly players that in the beginning of 3 when you're in the drug store, Kenny watches while you're stuck under the door.
In my playthrough, he helps me push the door off to escape.

Same outcome, 2 different tailored experiences.

As I said, you're expecting more than you're getting from their description of the game. It is however, just as they advertise.

BourbonTeacup

09/01/2012, 09:30 am

I get it Fluffy, you think you're some tough b*tch don't you? Like Telltale can't hurt you, but you're just a scared little poster. Get the f*ck over it.
*Fluffy stares at BourbonTeacup menacingly*
Take a page from ShadowFlux's book and try seeing it from their perspective for once.
*Fluffy pops a cap in my skull*

I hope Fluffy you've seen the Carley version of the scene to get that, and I'm kidding around but I do honestly think that while a lot of the choices didn't change much, a lot of choices seem more about defining Lee, not changing the world around him. Like the choice with that girl at the start, are you survivor at all costs, letting her die painfully just to reduce risk, or are you a compassionate killer, executing her but easing her suffering. Not every choice has to shape everyone else, sometimes it just shows what sort of man you are.

Drizzy2

09/01/2012, 09:35 am

Fluffyburrito

09/01/2012, 09:45 am

I'll see things from his perspective... with the bloody end of an axe handle maybe!

Seriously though, how Lilly/Carley/Doug played out is still just poor writing in my book. It's completely obvious that the writers just wanted Lilly and Carley/Doug gone. The hints and actions that characters take depending on what you say had no affect on Lilly's departure or Doug/Carley's life.

The entire game, especially from episode 2 onwards, has had this "Kenny vs Lilly" vibe that ends in episode 3. The ending is the same, no matter what way you look at it. It makes no sense that Lilly would offer to take you and then just leaves you. It makes no sense that we've gotten along great yet she still pulls a gun out. The ONLY way it makes sense is if you have sided with Kenny the entire time.

It felt like, and should have been, that we would have to choose once and for all Kenny or Lilly. That there should have been two sides. That Kenny should have been the one freaking out, just like Lilly did, and eventually left us with his family and we advanced with Lilly instead of him. Forget people who liked Lilly though, because you got chosen for you.

The writers wanted Lilly and Doug/Carley gone and for Kenny to be your only remaining bro and, screw the players who liked Lilly, they did it. Why even have this whole "Lilly vs Kenny" debate over the previous episodes if Lilly is just going to leave regardless? Why even hint that it's going to be some big confrontation when there's only one conclusion in the final confrontation that you can't change?

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 09:48 am

I totally agree. I love the series so far, but I am getting really disappointed with how little your choices matter. It's their story not yours whatever they want to happen will. I'm assuming if you don't save Duck in episode 1 he still lives? I didn't know that at the time. And try to save Larry or not he dies. Allow Lilly to stay or not you lose her. Meet total strangers and whether you trust them or not they join the group. Whether you want to hurt Ben over what he did you can't do anything about it. Nothing you do really matters at all.

When you hear the company name "TellTale" what do you think of?
I think of being Told a tale through their games, they have a bit of a niche market in games. If you make the decisions and change the story, they're not really telling a tale now are they?

Look, we can view this logically (based on value).
Most people want to change the destination of this story instead of enjoying the ride with having some colorful input.
Right there you're looking at something most or all $60 can't produce, from a $24.99/season game (14.99 on sale).

Everyone seems to be asking for $60 + several DLC worth of content from a $24.99 price point. It's just not going to happen, and it doesn't fit what this company does.

Accall

09/01/2012, 09:48 am

Huge lol at ShadowFlux there. If you really think that branching dialogue with the same outcome is equal to the story is tailored by how you play, then it sounds an awful lot like post-purchase rationalization to me... and TTG's shabby marketing terms.

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 09:56 am

Huge lol at ShadowFlux there. If you're really think that branching dialogue with the same outcome is equal to the story is tailored by how you play, then it sounds an awful lot like post-purchase rationalization to me... and TTG's shabby marketing terms.

dubesor posted this in another thread:

http://i.imgur.com/jlr3y.jpg

What everyone is realistically asking for: Example 1. From a $24.99 game. Not. Going. To. Happen.

Example 2. Seems logical, but as I stated in that thread, that leaves you in 2 separate spots for when season 2 picks up. Right there, that's another big problem and will push the game towards example one as seasons progress (if you end up with more than 2). Which is also, not likely.

Example 3. I think is an over-dramatization of what we do have, I see it more as branching out and reconnecting in a diamond shape (thus far) from the point where you choose Carley/Doug to when they die.

I think you're going through a pre-purchase misunderstanding and a post-purchase regret based on said misunderstanding, instead of accepting it for what it is.

thestalkinghead

09/01/2012, 09:57 am

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 10:09 am

all adventure games are just basically flow charts, what is so hard about adding a few branches.

sure it would add production time for new scenes and characters, and writing a story for many branches would be complicated, but it's not impossible.

they should have just called it an interactive story and we would have never expected any more.

i have basically accepted that this game is just an interactive story (i still hold out a little hope of more) but i still want a game where choices actually matter, so maybe for season 2 telltale could start figuring out how to do that.

Right, but most adventure games with larger flow charts (most likely) come with larger price tags.
Impossible? No, but you're going to have to reach deeper into your pockets to get it - especially to get it to the scope it seems most people would like it to be. I'm almost believing people honestly expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience for their $25.

If it doesn't come down to understanding your choices just change how Lee is reacted towards throughout the game, then it's got to be about understanding what you're getting for the price you paid.

Either way, to me, it matches what they've advertised.

Minos

09/01/2012, 10:10 am

Perhaps they could at extra episodes at extra (DLC) cost with alternate storylines?

thestalkinghead

09/01/2012, 10:13 am

Right, but most adventure games with larger flow charts (most likely) come with larger price tags.
Impossible? No, but you're going to have to reach deeper into your pockets to get it - especially to get it to the scope it seems most people would like it to be. I'm almost believing people honestly expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience for their $25.

If it doesn't come down to understanding your choices just change how Lee is reacted towards throughout the game, then it's got to be about understanding what you're getting for the price you paid.

Either way, to me, it matches what they've advertised.

don't go mad and extend my "what is so hard about adding a few branches" to "expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience" it is you who is rationalising misleading advertisement, and as i said i like the walking dead game, but i would like a game where choices matter aswell

and all DLC makes me sick, a Carley lives DLC would make me RAGE!!

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 10:21 am

don't go mad and extend my "what is so hard about adding a few branches" to "expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience" it is you who is rationalising misleading advertisement, and as i said i like the walking dead game, but i would like a game where choices matter aswell

I wasn't saying you specifically, this has been discussed in several threads, and it's my general perception of what the majority of posts in those threads come to.
Maybe I'm rationalizing, maybe I'm not. I set out and believed what many thought about the tailored experience thing.
Once I started playing I had a moment where I was like "Ohhh ok, this is what they meant by tailored!"
Instead of being pissed and throwing a tantrum (again not necessarily talking about you), I accepted it for what it was (being as I realized I only paid $24.99 in a $59.99 a game world) and that allowed me to enjoy it.

Now if I paid $59.99 for this game with this experience, I'd probably be more on the pissed side (Is this where all the Mass Effect 3 hate comes from? Never played that series).

I've made the choice to understand what I'm getting for the money I paid.

Fluffyburrito

09/01/2012, 10:23 am

Right, but most adventure games with larger flow charts (most likely) come with larger price tags.
Impossible? No, but you're going to have to reach deeper into your pockets to get it - especially to get it to the scope it seems most people would like it to be. I'm almost believing people honestly expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience for their $25.

If it doesn't come down to understanding your choices just change how Lee is reacted towards throughout the game, then it's got to be about understanding what you're getting for the price you paid.

Either way, to me, it matches what they've advertised.

I understand being annoyed at the unrealism of some of these posts, expecting it to be "Mass Effect 1 and 2" level.

See, Doug and Carley both made it to episode 3. TT demonstrated they could keep up with two characters for two episodes. What changed with Lilly vs Kenny? (Duck and Kat die no matter what, so they'd still be writing dialogue for both.) In a "pro-Lilly" playthrough, it makes no sense why you couldn't change the outcome of what happened. The way they off'd Lilly/Doug and Carley felt extremely out of place with how the game has gone so far and frankly, a bit lazy.

thestalkinghead

09/01/2012, 10:24 am

i would pay more as well, for a game where the choices have a real impact

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 10:32 am

I understand being annoyed at the unrealism of some of these posts, expecting it to be "Mass Effect 1 and 2" level.

See, Doug and Carley both made it to episode 3. TT demonstrated they could keep up with two characters for two episodes. What changed with Lilly vs Kenny? (Duck and Kat die no matter what, so they'd still be writing dialogue for both.) In a "pro-Lilly" playthrough, it makes no sense why you couldn't change the outcome of what happened. The way they off'd Lilly/Doug and Carley felt extremely out of place with how the game has gone so far and frankly, a bit lazy.

That makes some sense, and I wouldn't object that I was shocked and felt that I wanted Carley (my play through) to stick around longer. Could be EXACTLY why they did what they did.
Honestly, Lilly could have shot Ben and there would still be some shock value to the situation with her flying off the handle.
Though there's been much less time invested with Ben than Doug or Carley, and it wouldn't have played with people's emotions the same way.
I wouldn't have been as pissed off as I was had she shot Ben, still shocked, but not mad.

It was half, maybe slightly less than halfway through the episode. I feel like it wasn't a last minute throw together and everything at that point played out as TellTale had wanted it to.

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 10:44 am

i would pay more as well, for a game where the choices have a real impact

Most people would, and I think Telltale alters the story based on the statistics they receive also. Otherwise the game would have no reason to not be completed beforehand.

When I think of it that way, it's another way you could consider the game being tailored to how people play. Just as a fan base, not individuals.

Makes sense and I'm not saying I'm right, just pointing it out as a possibility.

dubesor

09/01/2012, 10:47 am

Example 3. I think is an over-dramatization of what we do have, I see it more as branching out and reconnecting in a diamond shape (thus far) from the point where you choose Carley/Doug to when they die.

You could argue that if they actually bothered to have some differences in between. But there aren't. They didn't even friggen bother to make different deaths for the bloody different People. To me it feels like they only changed the model between doug/carley. Everything stays the friggen same, even in between. Now if they made is so that carley gets shot in ep3 by Lilly, and Doug died a different way at a different point (maybe earlier or later) THEN I could agree on the diamon-branch. But the way they did it, was extremely lazy and so yes I indeed stick 100% to my drawing of graphic 3 and genuinely think that is what they fed to us.

thestalkinghead

09/01/2012, 10:50 am

Most people would, and I think Telltale alters the story based on the statistics they receive also. Otherwise the game would have no reason to not be completed beforehand.

When I think of it that way, it's another way you could consider the game being tailored to how people play. Just as a fan base, not individuals.

Makes sense and I'm not saying I'm right, just pointing it out as a possibility.

i cant imagine that fan feedback actually alters a game where the story would be planned from the start, and they still sell the game after it had been finished, so it doesn't count for the people that buy if later

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 11:05 am

You could argue that if they actually bothered to have some differences in between. But there aren't. They didn't even friggen bother to make different deaths for the bloody different People. To me it feels like they only changed the model between doug/carley. Everything stays the friggen same, even in between. Now if they made is so that carley gets shot in ep3 by Lilly, and Doug died a different way at a different point (maybe earlier or later) THEN I could agree on the diamon-branch. But the way they did it, was extremely lazy and so yes I indeed stick 100% to my drawing of graphic 3 and genuinely think that is what they fed to us.

For the most part, yes. The dialogue is different and some other differences, albeit minor.
(Gun holdup [Carley] vs Alarm system [Doug] also shooting Andy [Carley] vs blinding Andy with the laser pointer [Doug])
I believe there are a couple differences in 3 before their death as well, such as Doug talking about chalk (haven't played a Doug save to see that one yet) vs Carley suggesting telling people about your past.

I stand by the diamond diagram, and I can see your viewpoint on how you stand by your straight line diagram. Agree to disagree. :)

ShadowFlux

09/01/2012, 11:09 am

i cant imagine that fan feedback actually alters a game where the story would be planned from the start, and they still sell the game after it had been finished, so it doesn't count for the people that buy if later

I'm going to go back and re-watch some playing dead episodes in a little bit, to see if any of it confirms/disproves it.
From what I remember on the latest episode they made it sound like they were throwing ideas around in between episodes. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not so sure they explain when the process took place.

(Edit) After watching Playing Dead Ep. 1, they describe the game as a long form story, or an interactive TV show. On to Ep. 2